ABC's Gibson uncritically reported claim that "we dodged a bullet" by foiling terror plot on Fort Dix
SUMMARY: On ABC's World News, while introducing a report on the foiled Fort Dix plot, Charles Gibson uncritically repeated an FBI official's claim that "[t]oday, we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets." But neither Gibson nor ABC News' Brian Ross, in his subsequent report, noted that no attack was alleged to be imminent and that Fort Dix officials have reportedly claimed that the base was not, at any point, in immediate danger.
On the May 8 edition of ABC's World News, anchor Charles Gibson introduced a report about the indictment of six men alleged to have plotted an armed attack on the Fort Dix military base in New Jersey, by reporting as fact FBI Philadelphia special agent in charge J.P. Weis' statement that "[t]oday, we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets." But neither Gibson nor ABC News chief investigative correspondent Brian Ross, in his subsequent report, noted that no attack was alleged to be imminent and that Fort Dix officials have reportedly claimed that the base was not, at any point, in immediate danger.
By contrast, on the same night's edition of the CBS Evening News, CBS News Justice correspondent Bob Orr aired Weis' claim but followed it by noting: "Law enforcement sources say no attack was imminent." As well, during the May 8 broadcast of NBC's Nightly News, NBC News correspondent Pete Williams reported that, while Justice Department officials claimed the suspects had "moved beyond the talking stage," they also stated that, given the surveillance the men were under, "it's very unlikely they could have pulled off their attack."
On May 8, the New Jersey U.S. attorney's office announced that five foreign-born individuals were charged with "plotting to kill as many soldiers as possible in an armed assault at the Fort Dix Army base, adding that "a sixth defendant is charged with aiding and abetting the illegal possession of firearms." The men were arrested after attempting to purchase weapons from an undercover FBI agent. According to the office's press release, the group had been under investigation since January 31, 2006, "after the FBI received a video recording showing the six individuals charged in the Complaint and four other men firing assault weapons in militia-like style at a Poconos shooting range." The defendants "hoped to use assault rifles and rocket propelled grenades to kill as many soldiers as possible," but an informant "infiltrate[d] the group" and set up a deal to sell "inoperable" AK-47s and M-16s to the group. Two of the defendants were arrested when they allegedly "arrived to purchase" the weapons and the others were arrested shortly thereafter.
The Washington Post also reported that the men's "indictment ... indicates that the group had no rigorous military training and did not appear close to being able to pull off an attack." Also, during the May 8 edition of CNN's The Situation Room, CNN Justice correspondent Kelli Arena further reported that "officials insist that Fort Dix was never in imminent danger. Outside experts agree. It's a pretty tough target to hit."
From the May 8 edition of ABC's World News with Charles Gibson:
GIBSON: Good evening. Today, we learned of another terrorist plot that has been foiled. The target was a U.S. military base in New Jersey. The intent was to kill U.S. soldiers. The men planning the attack had all lived in the United States for years. As one FBI agent said, 'Today, we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets." Our chief investigative correspondent, Brian Ross, has the details -- Brian.
ROSS: Charlie, the FBI says it all began 17 months ago, when a photo shop clerk became suspicious of a video brought in by one of the suspects, showing the men firing weapons, praising Allah. The clerk called the FBI. An undercover informant was able to infiltrate the group and tracked and recorded the men as they plotted to kill as many U.S. soldiers as possible.
[...]
ROSS: The FBI says the plot was well-planned and financed. The men traveled to this range in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania for target practice, where today, some people said they remembered them because of their weapons.
From the May 8 edition of the CBS Evening News with Katie Couric:
ORR: The plot to attack U.S. soldiers on American soil ended in darkness at this home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Ringleaders of a home-grown terror cell with big plans and big mouths were arrested as they tried to buy AK-47 and M-16 assault weapons from an FBI agent posing as an arms dealer.
For more than a year, federal agents watched and listened to the six suspects, shown here in the back of SUVs heading to court.
The foreign-born Islamic radicals told informants of their plans to attack Fort Dix and other U.S. military targets in the Philadelphia area.
WEIS: Today, we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons that this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets.
ORR: Law enforcement sources say no attack was imminent, but the suspects, who appeared in court today, face possible life sentences for plotting to kill as many soldiers as possible.
From the May 8 edition of NBC's Nightly News with Brian Williams:
B. WILLIAMS: A lot of government officials from the president on down have hinted over the years that if we ever really knew about all the unsubstantiated national security threats that are out there, we'd never leave our homes in the morning. Of course, most of those threats pass without us ever knowing about them. But this morning, as millions of Americans were leaving home for work, they heard about this story, what the feds say is a busted plot by six young men in their 20s accused of planning to shoot up a U.S. Army post, Fort Dix in New Jersey. The FBI says this was an example of home-grown terrorism, inspired by the Internet and thankfully foiled.
We begin our reporting tonight with NBC's Pete Williams. He's at the Justice Department in Washington. Pete, good evening.
P. WILLIAMS: Brian, officials here say while these men moved in fits and starts and even had trouble keeping secrets, they were nonetheless committed. They had some guns, and, they say, they had moved beyond the talking stage.
Their target, the FBI says, was Fort Dix, New Jersey, the Army post that's been a waystation for more than 95,000 soldiers since 9-11. Federal prosecutors say the six men scouted the base and had a map.
[...]
P. WILLIAMS: Tonight, Justice Department officials say these 13 men were under -- these six men, rather, were under such close surveillance for the past 13 months that it's very unlikely they could have pulled off their attack, even if they had gotten the machine guns they wanted and which they thought they were buying last night.
Amazing. It seems this operation was foiled by handling it as a law enforcement issue.
Why hasn't anybody suggested this approach on a larger basis?
What? Send our policemen into WAR? Are you nuts?
Then again, if we sent the cops over there, we wouldn't have to fight crime here. You may be on to something...
Why not? The criminals all come from Crimistan.
My brother is in the Army Reserve at Ft. Dix.
According to him there's almost nothing there worth attacking. There IS however quite a number of trigger-happy reservists, so these jackasses would have almost certainly been riddled with bullets before they did any real damage.
IMO, it shows the intelligence level of your average jihadist. They might as well have planned an attack on the Tastee-Freeze stand down the street from my house.
I don't think anyone argues how stupid the radical islamist is! I think the danger of those stupid people are the concern. Many are saying that they couldn't have done 'much' damage or killed 'many' people. Does it make you feel better when only a few are killed or only minimal damage is done?
I like the way that Bush's anti-terrorism plan is working to keep the US safe and liberals on this site minimize the danger of radical islam.
Autopsychotic pulling accusation directly from his rectal database AGAIN for our further amusement. Personally I never underestimate the damage that can be done by stupid people in large groups. This is why I applaud your decision to stay in your mothers basement. Please continue to spare our gene pool any contamination and DO NOT BREED.
Sure, look how well that approach worked between February 1993 and September 2001.
It didn't work perfectly, Kevin, but much better than when our current administration started to not treat it that way.I don't think it's fair of you to imply that Bush & Co. are entirely to blame for the failures of 9/11 ,though.
Curious? Why would anyone downplay the possibility of a terrorist attack on soldiers stationed at a base in our country? Why minimize an attack, that if not thwarted, could lead to terrorist murders, and now the suspects face life sentences?
It can't be political in nature? Nah..........
Why indeed Tommy. What's MMFA's point here?
The reason no attack became imminent is because it got stopped in it's tracks before it got to that.
The reason the base was not in immediate danger is because the plot was foiled before it got any further.
And MMFA is finding fault with this?
Thanks for showing your true colors MMFA.
I do not see MMFA trying to find fault as much as hype into this event. Remember the MSM buying into these events led us to the immoral war in Iraq.
What are you guys worried about? We're still over there, so we don't have to fight them here.
This never had a chance at being anything - other than overblown. If they were real terrorists, they'd still be in Baghdad getting shot at by our troops.
I think what they're getting at is that these guys may have had plans, but they could not have come close to pulling it off.
I live in Central New Jersey. There are military bases everywhere. No one can get anywhere near enough to do damage. There is a road within walking distance of my house that leads to a Naval Weapons station. Even before 9/11, anyone on that road is immediately considered a threat and are dealt with.
The news media ran with this as a very close call. It was not. The media reported that they were planning to attack with RPGs, anti-tank weapons and assault rifles. My first thought was where the hell would they get RPGs?
I'm not minimizing the threat, but the media, as usual, sold the fear, not the actual threat.
These guys were pizza delivery men. That's how they were planning to get on the base. One station interviewed local pizza places and they all said that it was ridiculous. They can't get get on the base without ID, and clearance by the military guards.
This was another perfect example of how good police work prevents problems. All of the law enforcement people did a great job. I wish I could say the same for the media.
Worrier I Think you would have done a better job on this article. When youu put it like that I do see your point at the same time I kind of see where tommy is comming from on "some of his points".
It would be very hard to just stroll onto a base in Jersey and just start a shooting spree.
King,
Great post, as always.
I feel like I'm seeing two camps on this issue. Those that blow every event such as this out of proportion, and those that minimize it as if it weren't worth even mentioning.
Somewhere in-between is the truth.
These guys don't appear to be connected to any organized terrorist group, and perhaps they couldn't have carried out getting out of a paper bag together. But I'm still grateful that whatever they were planning [doable or not] was thwarted.
OMG! is this what common ground feels like?
A round of beers on me for everyone!
Let's throw in pizza for everyone too!
Monk, it's been my experience here [and I've been here a mighty long time] that two posters especially--> Worrierking & Open_Mind, always find a way to put things into perspective and have the ability to get even opposing sides to agree on issues.
I like when that happens :-)
A hat tip to both of them!
Agreed _ I lose track of the big picture sometimes ( a lot!) common ground is nice.
Thanks, Jeter. you're right, we need to reach that spot in the middle where the truth hides.
I think most people would agree with you...the problem is, the GWOT's "successes" seem to be timed to drown out criticism of the Iraq occupation. To the 70% of us that are thinking straight, does anyone actually believe a word that comes from these guys anymore?
Most of Osama's men are Saudi cow washers. I guess they aren't REAL terrorists either. I guess you're only a terrorist if you actually get lucky enough to pull your attack off successfully. HELLO LOGIC!~
"My first thought was where the hell would they get RPGs?"
If it was up to the NRA, they would be able to get them at Wal-Mart, with no background check and no trigger locks.
To be fair you do make a point. I can't believe I'm going to say it, but "Why is this here?"
The reason this is here, in my opinion, is because there are some factions in this country that want to minimize and downplay any terrorist threat we face, abroad and at home.
For to legitimize and recognize it as a real threat we face, instead of some right wing fear mongering, only reinforces the necessity of strong, offensive terrorist fighting tools at our disposal to keep our citizens safe. And certain "factions" find that intolerable. And even worse, Bush, who had nothing to do with this, could get a temporary bounce as a result of a thwarted terrorist attack. And that is even more intolerable.
Fair assessment, but in truth this only hurts the administration. They are the ones promoting the idea that we are in Iraq so stuff like this doesn't happen, that somehow our presence over there makes us immune to attacks at home.
I don't think this incident should be downplayed, but in the grand scheme of things this incident had as much bite to it as the string of school shootings in the last couple of years. That it was some grand Al quida plot to strike at the heart of America is stretching a bit.
Let's dial the rhetoric back a tad, please.
The Administration has a history of trumpeting these "thwarted terrorist attacks" that turned out to be little more than the poorly thought-through fantasies of some deranged people. We don't know what the details of this case are, but that didn't stop Charlie Gibson from rushing to judgment.
I think ABC and Charlie Gibson are hyping it because the media likes hype. Brian Ross is one of the leading slime balls in the msm today .
I can give you two details.
Illegal aliens. [at least 3]
Islamic radicals.
I would imagine if you asked the soldiers at Fort Dix, who could very easily been murdered at the hands of these Islamic radicals if their plot was successful, would agree they "dodged a bullet".
Sometimes a little hyperbole is necessary to wake people up to the threat we face everyday from radical Islam. If this little "bullet dodging" phrase from Gibson did that, then it's appropriate.
I would submit to you that if you need hyperbole to "wake people up" to some threat, perhaps the threat is not all that dire.
I'm just sayin'...
I'm just sayin.........look around here. It would take a ton of hyperbole to fall from the sky to convince some people of the threat we face.
The problem is, Tommy, we've been BS'd for so long by an Administration that has waved the bloody shirt of 9-11 to pull off the repeal of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, wiretapping, torture and a pointless war.
I hope you can understand why many of us have grown cynical whenever the government plays the terror card. I'm not saying you have to agree, but I hope you can at least understand.
The truth is, I don't know how to quantify the risk jihadists pose to me and other everyday Americans. And the truth is, neither do you.
Val, For the record - for any administration or government official to falsely ratchet up any fear, terror or otherwise, that is unwarranted to score political points is reprehensible.
By the same token, for any similar government official to dismiss or neglect any real threat, thereby downplaying it for political reasons, is equally reprensible and a dereliction of their elected duty.
Certainly. I cannot disagree with that.
The problem with your argument, Tommy, is that you define the threat in only vague terms. The administration has been doing the same thing. They then use this vague threat to justify actions that often have little or nothing to do with reality.
I cannot excuse hyperbole when it's used in this manner. Not only does it yield unecessary behavior, it often distracts us from the real solutions and even produces counter-productive behavior. Instead, we need serious, rational discussion about specifics and root causes.
For example, did the Patriot Act or our presence in Iraq have anything to do with catching this latest group? Does it make sense to argue that the threat of radical Islam - as demonstrated by this recent event - justifies either?
Two factors to take into account here:
1. Some FBI guy said they had "dodged a bullet."
Pretty easy to dodge a bullet that is not even going to fired.
2. Notice how Bush's "justice" department is crowing about this arrest, yet in Alabama, a group was busted after they actually HAD machine guns, and over 100 grenades, and outside of Alabama news agencies, practically nothing.
The big difference:
The New Jersey "morons" (as several commentators have called them,) were foreign-born Muslims.
The Alabama group was white, "Christian" Americans.
Another point,
Last weekend a guy blew up while trying to bring a bomb into the luxor, very little press.
A few weeks back bomb was found outside of a planned parenthood center, very little news.
The Luxor bomb was a murder plot, that much is known.
Of course, Michelle Malkin has to tie that murder in to any and every radical extremist group out there...
As to the Planned Parenthood bomb, since that one was planted by a "good Christian," it gets diddly squat in coverage.
I would think you could make farts smell like roses is more likely than Bush getting a bounce. Isn't the right's #1 talking point "We haven't had an attack on American soil because of the war on terror"? To me, this just poked a big hole in that thought balloon.
"The reason this is here, in my opinion, is because there are some factions in this country that want to minimize and downplay any terrorist threat we face, abroad and at home."
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Actually, the reason this is here is because there are some factions in the Administration (actually, this Administration doesn't allow factions, so it is the Administration itself) that want to maximize and bamboozle the American people into believing that any terrorist threat we face, abroad or at home, is a fait accompli, even if the "terrorists" are a bunch of complete morons whose plan had not even an scintilla of a chance of being attempted, let alone of being a success.
I guess they were trying to say that we didn't dodge a bullet. Maybe Gibson is just another cheerleader for the Bush Administration.
Let me get this straight. MMFA thinks that reporting an FBI saying "we dodged a bullet" is right wing misinormation?
Tommy, what do you think?
It may not be the classic definition of "conservative misinformation" but it is certainly poor journalism.
Besides, how did we dodge ANY bullets from "inoperable" weapons, unless they were buying "inoperable" bullets as well
Tommy, what, do you think?
Easy, don't pick on AA, it's very sensitive. Between its constant begging for approval and stalking delusions, I try to be gentle.
Don't forget VTech.
Wait a minute! I thought we were fighting them over there, so we wouldn't be fighting them over here.
I actually live in the Cherry Hill area where these guys are from. This whole episode was a little weird when it came about.
No foolin? I'm Cherry Hill East class of '84. As far as I am concerned, Harold & Kumar was all the notoriety my hometown needed...
I'm reserving judgment until more information is released. So far, all the "foiled terror plots" have been these sort of amateur affairs that never get past the buying-running-shoes-and-paintball stage, but we shall see.
"No foolin? I'm Cherry Hill East class of '84. As far as I am concerned, Harold & Kumar was all the notoriety my hometown needed..."
Off topic: For the Record there is no White Castle in Cherry Hill.
And no cliffs from which to hang-glide.
Surely you jest?
Running shoes and paint ball? Can you elaborate?
As far as I've heard, these guys already had semi-automatic weapons. (Please correct me if I am wrong?)
I don't know much in the way of details on this case, what I was referring to was the last "thwarted terrorist attack" where they were supposedly planning to bomb the Sears Tower, but didn't have any plans or supplies, and were writing to al-Qaeda for money to buy running shoes.
Is there anyone west of the Hudson over the age of three who doesn't have a semi-automatic? If so, the NRA's falling down on the job.
Semi auto versus 80 caliber mounted on a hummer? Are you kidding? They might as well attack with the paint guns.
Why were these terrorists here? Didn't they know they were supposed to stay over there where our troops are fighting them to keep them from coming here?
Just ask D. Morris, they had plenty of targets over in Iraq.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/08/morris-iraq
At least Dick Morris can sleep easy. They were going after military targets and not Dickie. His plan is working here as well.
This was indeed great law enforcement work, and far from anyone downplaying this, I have heard nothing but reports about this since it broke yesterday. I don't believe anyone in any media outlet has downplayed this at all. This is a success story, for how thwarting alleged terrorist plots should be done, and amazing how none of these guys were from Iraq and all. Being that were fighting terrorists over there, so we don't have to fight them here and all.
I do believe that since these guys have been under surveillance for what? 14 months or so? The chances of them being able to carry out an attack on anyone was remote at best. I'm sure that they had FBI guys following them around and under surveillance 24/7. Again, good police and law enforcement work. Job well done FBI. Did we dodge a bullet? Yes, but the bullet was very well defined it appears, and easy to dodge.
Dittos.
"I do believe that since these guys have been under surveillance for what? 14 months or so? The chances of them being able to carry out an attack on anyone was remote at best."
Folks around here think it's funny that they really believed they'd get the jump on Fort Dix, but I agree this was excellent work on the FBIs part and i am thankful they stopped it.
I'd like to know just how many soldiers they would shoot before they were themselves dispatched to "heaven"? I'm thinking not too many at all, if they even made it over the fence to start with, which is not even remotely likely. But again, great job by the FBI. The fact that these guys were bumbling idiots probably made their job so much easier I think.
Yeah... I am not sure whether to be relieved or concerned that these "terror cells" always turn out to be Keystone Kops.
They might have had more time than you seem to think to do their work -- back in '67, the soldiers at Ft. Dix never saw live ammo except on the rifle range.
At the gate? In the towers?
The trainees didn't see live ammo, but I'm sure those who were on real guard duty were well armed.
Although I was just a kid in '67, in '69, at Ft. Bragg, I used to have to guard a Laundromat with an unloaded M-14 in basic training. I always assumed that the guards at the gate and security personnel had the real thing with a rock & roll switch.
back in '67, the soldiers at Ft. Dix never saw live ammo except on the rifle range."
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And, of course, not a thing has changed in 40 years...
Weren't they using flintlocks back then?
(ducks)
Sharpened sticks is more like it.
"Great Law Enforcement"?
It's not like they went out and found these guys on their own. It was the guys down at the photo shop that deserve the kudos, if any are deserved here. They're the ones who got the ball rolling.
That said, I imagine it is just as manufactured and/or impedent as the other alleged terror plots bushco has 'foiled'
Yeah, his success rate is stunning, isn't it?
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070506/14alqaeda.htm
Again, what the insurgents, foriegn fighters, jihadists etc in Iraq can pull off is impossible here. Over there, the photo store guy, his immediate family, his second cousins all would turn up dead with drill holes where their eyes and ears used to be. The "terrorists" do not have the support and sympathy of the community here like they do in Iraq.
They were THIS close. The only thing missing from their nefarious plan was a shipment of surplus "jihad boots" from the Miami cell.
I suppose, considering there are a number of psychopaths on the planet capable of murdering random people, that every night as I crawl into bed, I can congratulate myself - "Today, I dodged a bullet."
Hahaha.. Do you also turn around three times first?
(Just kidding. Doggone it, I couldn't resist.)
you have a bed under your rock... well huh.. So the phrase "dodging a bullet" is kind of strong for you or what.. What would have been the appropriate non-misinforming statement to make in your opinion?
I guess that would be bedrock? ;-)
Just because A reporter quotes a law officer does not make it right wing information... Except, apparently, at this non-Soros funded discussion.
"So the phrase "dodging a bullet" is kind of strong for you or what.. What would have been the appropriate non-misinforming statement to make in your opinion?"
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That statement would be, "We didn't have to dodge a thing, because there was no threat at all."
I hope I don't seem rude in not responding to the 3 comments following mine. I'm not sure if they were directed at me, and I have no idea what they are trying to say.
I'm pretty sure that AA was responding to one of your posts from last week concerning our ancestors, Fred, Wilma, Barney and Betty.
After all he did say something about Bedrock.
HBL & Worrier,
This forum does get confusing trying to post comments where you would like them to land.. Oh well..
and to answer HBL.. "Yes" and "I'm sorry you didn't understand", although "AA" seemed to get the jist..
OK. My cats seem to understand each other too. ;0D
I still don't get the turning around 3 times or right wing information parts.I'll try to crack the code.
Maybe he's been talking to my granddaughter. She's nine now. Three years ago, she taught me how to catch a frog (it was probably a toad, but try explaining the difference to a six year old).
Her theory is that before you start your search for a frog, you have to turn around three times. She was very good at catching them so I wouldn't knock something that works.
Maybe that tactic works catching turrists too.
"I still don't get the turning around 3 times"
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My guess is that the first-grader who reads these things to the poster had to go home and take a nap, so when he tried to read the thread on his own he couldn't tell the difference between "Huntington Beach Lefty" and "American Mutt."
Easy,
So I guess the 14 months or so of tailing them was to just find out where the best falafel was in town?
All they had to do was call BillO's radio show to find that out.
He's a loofah, not a fightah...
Ruh-ro, looks like another attack is coming!
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/05/us_germany_fear.html
From the article:
The 9/ll hijackers planned their operation out of Hamburg, Germany, and the country continues to be known as a staging area for al Qaeda and groups affiliated with it.
So, when we gonna invade Germany?
So what would Scobby do?
The thing is, the "real" terrorists are very smart. A lot of them are highly educated. And they plan well, which is why their attacks are normally carried out, and which is why we don't see large terrorist attacks all of the time. Something large scale takes a lot of planning. A lot of training. And a lot of intelligence. I don't think that law enforcement in the US would make light of any threat, but I also think that sometimes the folks in the US, when we do catch guys like these, make the mistake that all terrorists are like this. Which is pretty far from the truth.
I do think that the media will make a big deal out of this, and trump it up as something that it wasn't.
Now who is it upon hearing of this "thankfully foiled" plot, wouldn't immediately want to know:
Are the "plotters" Iraqis?
Are they saudis, or Iranians or Syrians?
Are they Arabs?
As you can plainly hear from the clip of the three network 'news' reports, they carefully neglected to say what country the "foreign-born Islamic radicals" were from, instead leaving it up to your imagination... instead saying:
ROSS: "Charlie, the FBI says it all began 17 months ago, when a photo shop clerk became suspicious of a video brought in by one of the suspects, showing the men firing weapons, praising Allah."
ORR: "Ringleaders of a home-grown terror cell with big plans and big mouths..." "For more than a year, federal agents watched and listened to the six suspects..." "The foreign-born Islamic radicals told informants of their plans to attack Fort Dix..."
And of course, the williams boys:
B. WILLIAMS: "...a busted plot by six young men in their 20s accused of planning to shoot up a U.S. Army post, Fort Dix in New Jersey. The FBI says this was an example of home-grown terrorism"
P. WILLIAMS: "officials here say while these men... had moved beyond the talking stage. Their target, the FBI says, was Fort Dix, New Jersey, the Army post that's been a waystation for more than 95,000 soldiers since 9-11..." [Ooooh, we just have to mention 9-11] "these six men... were under such close surveillance for the past 13 months that it's very unlikely they could have pulled off their attack"
Now really, with the mention of "Allah" and "home-grown terror cell" and "foreign-born Islamic radicals", don't you think you'd immediately want to know if these guys were Arabs, or Iraqis or saudis or whichever?
Why didn't they say they were ALBANIAN or SERB or SLAV or whatever they are?
Because they, the "media" hacks who think they have you dancing on the end of their string, wanted to send you off to work in the morning, thinking they were Arabs or Iraqis, that's why.
And isn't that just about the hottest topic of misinformation in the "media" right now, trying to portray Iraqis as a 'terror' threat to the American People... trying to keep U.S. Troops occupying Iraq?
I think you're stretching it quite a bit. If you are using MMFA as your source for the media you have to realize that you can't depend on MMFA to give you all the quotes. (maybe that was all there was in this telecast?)
The news reports I've watched and listened to, including that far right wing morning purveyor of propaganda, the Today Show, made it very clear where these terrorists came from.
In case you missed it, we are at war with islamofacists from many nations.
There is no such thing as an Islamofascist.
Your right about the media "convienently" leaving out the origins of these suspects. However, I beleive that they left those details out of fear of groups such as CAIR. I dont know what news you watch, but the majority of news i see is anti-war. always concentrating on our tragedies and losses, rarely any of the good that is coming out of our presence in Iraq.
BTW what is so wrong with the media showing a "positive" story like this. Granted they may not have been full-blown highly funded terrorists, it shows that the extremist mentality is within our borders. If uneducated "pseudo terrorists" can carry out this level of arming, servalince and planning, just imagine what the "real" terrorists are capable of. I know ill be accused of pushing the "rightist scare tactics" but stories like these show that there is an imminent danger in the world today and we will not always be shelterd by our self-absorbed lifestyle.
Details you wanted to know:
Four of the arrested men were born in the former Yugoslavia, one was born in Jordan and one came from Turkey, authorities said. Three were in the United States illegally; two had green cards allowing them to stay in this country permanently; and the sixth is a U.S. citizen.
Granted this excerpt is from Foxnews.com but I have heard the same information through various radio news programs, both left and right.
"I have heard the same information through various radio news programs, both left and right."
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If they were truly news programs, they would be neither "left" nor "right." They would simply be news programs.
I say that because I notice many MMFA posters deny validity of sources such as WND.com and Fox news such as many righters question CNN etc.
That's because WND and Fox "News" have proven time and again that they are nothing but mouthpieces for the GOP.
Please tell me what sort of bias CNN has, other than not drinking the Kool-Aid without testing it first.
57 comments, countless mentions of "terrorists", and not one person has noted that by no proper definition does an attack on a military base constitute a terrorist attack.
Well, it does only to the extent of the threat to civilians who may work on that base, but since there wasn't a snowball's chance in Hell of the plot even getting under way, the point is moot.
That's ridiculous. Even if the attack had been carried out, it's still not terrorism. The target was military. What you're saying is equivalent to saying that bombing a market in Iraq, where some soldiers happen to be patrolling, constitutes a military attack to the extent that some soldiers accidentally got caught in the blast.
Definition of Terrorist:
Use should be restricted specifically to references to people and nongovernmental organizations planning and executing acts of violence against civilian or noncombatant targets.
Definitions of noncombatants:
used of civilians in time of war
member of armed forces whose duties do not include fighting
a member of the armed forces who does not participate in combat
Thought I'd look things up for you since you obviously cant do it for yourself.
And BTW, they were arrested for conspiring to kill officers and employees of agencies in the Executive Branch of the United States Government, namely, members of the uniformed services, while such officers and employees were engaged in and on account of the performance of official duties, and persons assisting such officers and employees in the performance of such duties and on account of that assistance.
That's a curious definition of terrorist. At first I thought it must have come from Fox News, but upon searching I see that you got it from the Wall Street Journal. A tad better, maybe, but you'll pardon me if I don't take the WSJ's word as gospel about what does or does not constitute terrorism. By that definition, if an Iraqi were to attack a U.S. soldier operating in a support role (hey, he wasn't fighting, he was just supporting the fighting), then that would constitute a terrorist attack. That's just bizarre.
Actually my definition came from a simple google search. The actual definition is from [link to www.careerjournaleurope.com] color="#008000">www.careerjournaleurope.com/columnists/styleandsubstance/glossary.html
My point was to rebutt the previous post that "no definition of terrorist can be applied" Im not saying that these guys were obvious terrorists, just that the term can be applied even though they were seeking to attack a military base.
That's the WSJ, specifically the WSJ Executive Career Site. Not the first place I go as an authority on such matters. My statement was that no proper definition could be applied, not that some definition that sounds good to the right wing crowd could be. Hell, by that definition, if I (a person) punch (an act of violence) my neighbor (a civilian), then that qualifies as well. In other words, it's such a laughable definition as to be completely useless.
the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
Ok here's Webster's definition which still applies to my point that just because they were targeting a military base here in America doesnt me it would not be considered an act of terrorism if it were carried out.
I generally agree with your argument. An attack on a military base could certainly satisfy the definition of terrorism.
I will draw attention to one other aspect of terrorism, i.e., the use of fear for the purpose of coercion. Whether the actions of this particular group had some policy objective is a matter of conjecture at this point. It's possible they had no other objective except to kill, much like the VT gunman.
(I suppose one could argue that there was a "terror" aspect even to Cho's actions. However, that doesn't seem to leave us with a particularly useful definition for "terrorism" since most every act of violence would satisfy the definition.)
Clearly, the problem here is that we don't believe what our government tells us anymore. They've lied to us so much that we have to take everything with a grain of salt, and assume that they are exaggerating the threat, or are releasing it to distract us from their latest corruption or incompetence. Sad.
I think thats something we all can agree on. The majority of our government no longer represents the people and has become an eliteist class that serves itself through manipulation of the people for their own benefit.
I don't agree that the majority of our government no longer represents the people,etc. The leadership as populated by political appointees, and hires over the last three years. Can in too many cases be found to be gulity of your accusation. The rank and file and a fair number of management do not. At least in the square corners of it that I have been. Saying that, I'm expecting to be in paper to paper combat with the V.A. shortly. I do not expect to enjoy it. I also don't think this will be due totally to those Polfeds. The V.A. was hard to deal with long before these folk came in smiling and smirking.
Don't know how many here have heard of the N.S.P.S. reorganisation, A.K.A. the Rumsfeld reorganisation. Its function seemed to be to make working for the federal government more of a polictical job. It was defunded by congress. It continued anyway. Due to it, for the first time in 25 years I didn't get my usual ~ $300 bonus. A smaller population got bonuses of about twice this. Boohoo, I don't miss the money, but you'll understand I've had mixed feelings about it. Today my union rep said the witch is dead. There will be a rollback of actions against worker organisation that occurred under N.S.P.S. Good news in many areas. Hopefully it is really dead. Given the history here, I'll wait and see
Another wait and see concerns having a close hard look at our use of contractors, as expressed by an Admiral Sullivan recently.
I understand what you mean to a certain extent. I guess what I am saying is that there appears to be a definite dissatatchment from those who govern and those who are governed.
Spot on there.
There is a certain population involved here who never bought into the idea that the government is supposed to be on the side of the citizen, working for his benifit. Government don't work, now I get to show you how it don't work from a position of power, kinda attitude.
A second group, advocates or members of a consortium for profit(nothing against an honest profit here) organization. Now find themselves running the agencies which used to regulate them.
I'm sure that there are other identifiable groups involved for perhaps less than pure motives. With any luck we might get a close look at some one these powerful people in the future being very uncomfortable and given the attention their actions deserve.
Let's see the Bush Admin. is up to it's eyes in investigations and digging towards China in almost all polls and then suddenly a MAJOR terrorist attack is averted...now hav'nt we seen this before?
ABC AND GIBSON ARE ALSO IN THE RIGHTWING POCKET.