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Myths and falsehoods about progress in Iraq

September 09, 2007 1:15 pm ET

SUMMARY: Supporters of the Iraq war -- rather than waiting for testimony by Gen. David Petraeus and U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker on the effect of President Bush's troop increase in Iraq -- have engaged in a campaign to convince the media and public that progress is being made in Iraq and that the "surge" is "working." Media Matters has compiled some of the most pervasive myths and falsehoods advanced by opponents of withdrawal in service of the "surge is working" message, which many in the media have been complicit in perpetuating.

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The week of September 10, Gen. David Petraeus, commander of Multi-National Force-Iraq, and U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker are expected to testify before Congress on the effect of President Bush's troop increase in Iraq, to be followed by a written report submitted by the White House. Bush announced on January 10 that he was sending "more than 20,000 additional American troops to Iraq." Since then, the Bush administration and the congressional Republican leadership have thwarted efforts by Democrats and other proponents of legislating a timeline for withdrawal to enact legislation to begin withdrawing U.S. troops, arguing that no action should be taken until Congress hears from Petraeus and Crocker.

But supporters of the war have not simply bided their time awaiting Petraeus' and Crocker's appearances before Congress. Rather, they have engaged in a campaign starting midsummer to convince the media and public that progress is being made in Iraq. President Bush, members of the administration, Republicans, and other advocates of the president's escalation policy have been laying the groundwork for the case that the "surge" is "working" and it is premature to commence withdrawal. Many in the media have been complicit in the administration's PR offensive: ignoring that a crucial criterion for the success of the administration's strategy -- political progress in Iraq -- has in the assessment of people inside and outside the administration not occurred; repeating administration claims of military progress while ignoring evidence to the contrary; repeating distortions of comments by Democrats to claim that they acknowledge the surge is working; characterizing proponents of a withdrawal timeline as calling for a "precipitous" withdrawal; and uncritically repeating the widely dismissed claim by Bush and administration supporters that the terrorists will follow us home if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq.

Some of the most pervasive myths and falsehoods that many in the media have been complicit in perpetuating are set out below:

Myth: "The surge is working"

In recent weeks, the media have essentially allowed advocates of the president's "surge" policy to redefine the criteria on which the strategy's success would be evaluated, ignoring the Bush administration's own acknowledgment of the importance of national political progress to the overall success of its strategy. Bush specifically cited the need for political progress back in January, and the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act of 2007 passed in May provides the benchmarks with which progress is to be measured.

On the August 20 edition of Fox News' Special Report, host Brit Hume said that "evidence mounts that the troop surge is working as planned." An August 16 editorial in Investor's Business Daily was headlined, "A Surge of Success." And on the August 21 edition of MSNBC's Tucker, U.S. News & World Report editor-in-chief Mortimer B. Zuckerman asserted: "[T]he fact is that, by far, the consensus is that the surge is working." However, by the administration's own standards, the national political reconciliation that the Bush administration identified as essential for the success of its escalation strategy has not occurred.

As Media Matters has noted, when announcing his so-called surge strategy in January, Bush specifically stated that success had to be measured in terms of military progress and political progress by the Iraqi government on the benchmarks established by the United States. Bush declared that "[a] successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations" and will include a political component: "hold[ing] the Iraqi government to the benchmarks [America] has announced." Furthermore, when appearing on the August 5 edition of NBC's Meet the Press, Defense Secretary Robert Gates told host Tim Russert that "a successful outcome in Iraq requires political reconciliation. There's no question about that," and that "[a]t some point there has to be reconciliation at the national level." On the February 25 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice argued, "The president's been clear with [the Iraqi leaders] that these political reconciliation measures are at the core of success for Iraq." Navy Adm. Michael Mullen, while testifying before a July 31 hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on his nomination to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stated, "I still maintain that if we aren't making progress in [the Iraqi political] realm the prospects for movement in a positive direction are not very good."

However, on August 21, Crocker said reconciliation is not occurring. As an August 21 McClatchy Newspapers article reported, Crocker said: "The progress on the national level issues has been extremely disappointing and frustrating to all concerned -- to us, to Iraqis, to the Iraqi leadership itself." During his August 5 appearance on Meet the Press, Gates said the political aspect is "a disappointing picture for the central government right now, but there are some positive things happening at the local level." After returning from a trip to Iraq in mid-August, Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) noted that "[t]he purpose of the surge, by its own terms, was to have the -- give the opportunity to the Iraqi leaders to reach some political settlements. They have failed to do that. They have totally and utterly failed." In addition, the latest National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) stated that national political reconciliation has not occurred. The NIE, portions of which were released on August 23, stated that "to date, Iraqi political leaders remain unable to govern effectively" and concluded that "the Iraqi Government will become more precarious over the next six to 12 months." According to the NIE: "Broadly accepted political compromises required for sustained security, long-term political progress, and economic development are unlikely to emerge unless there is a fundamental shift in the factors driving Iraqi political and security developments."

Further, a report released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) on September 4 found that the national Iraqi government was making little political progress. The GAO concluded that the Iraqi government had met only one of eight legislative benchmarks and partially met one other. GAO noted that six of the legislative benchmarks had not been met: "a review committee has not completed work on important revisions to Iraq's constitution" and "the government has not enacted legislation on de-Ba'athification, oil revenue sharing, provincial elections, amnesty, or militia disarmament."

  • O'Hanlon and Pollack -- critics of administration handling of the war -- agree the surge is working

On July 30, Brookings Institution scholars Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack published an op-ed in The New York Times in which they described themselves as "analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration's miserable handling of Iraq" and argued that "significant changes were taking place," which justified continuing the Bush administration's surge strategy "at least into 2008." The op-ed received widespread media attention, and supporters of the administration's policy in Iraq touted the op-ed, saying that Pollack's and O'Hanlon's findings of progress were particularly credible, given their purported criticism of the war. Indeed, the weblog Think Progress noted that O'Hanlon and Pollack "appeared on at least nine major mainstream media outlets in" the 24 hours after their op-ed appeared.

In fact, O'Hanlon and Pollack are not "critics of the war"; as Media Matters has noted, both O'Hanlon and Pollack were influential proponents of the Iraq war before the invasion. Pollack wrote a book in 2002 titled The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq (Random House). Furthermore, O'Hanlon publicly supported the surge policy and wrote a January 2007 column in support of President Bush's troop escalation, claiming that it was "the right thing to try." Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald documented the litany of O'Hanlon and Pollack's support for the Iraq war, including the fact that O'Hanlon was one of the signatories to the Project for New American Century's Iraq policy letter issued in 2003, and had, as recently as February 2007, written a Wall Street Journal op-ed arguing that Democrats were wrong to oppose the war and that the surge should continue.

Media reports routinely failed to mention Pollack and O'Hanlon's support for the invasion:

  • On the August 20 edition of Fox News' Special Report, national security correspondent Jennifer Griffin reported that Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI) and John Warner (R-VA), after returning from Iraq, were "sounding a bit like Brookings Institution war critics Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack, who changed their views after seeing some of the military successes first hand."
  • On the July 31 edition of CNN's Larry King Live, host Larry King failed to challenge Vice President Dick Cheney, who described O'Hanlon and Pollack as "strong critics of the war."
  • In a June 30 post on The New Yorker's website, George Packer wrote that "'Hanlon and Pollack have long been critics of the war."

On Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace described O'Hanlon and Pollack as "two critics of the way the Bush administration has conducted the war." On the CBS Evening News, CBS News national security correspondent David Martin falsely described O'Hanlon as "a critic" of the Iraq war "who used to think the surge was too little too late, [but] now believes it should be continued." And on CNN Newsroom, anchor Heidi Collins introduced Pollack by saying that he "has been a vocal critic of the administration's handling of the [Iraq] war, but he says that an eight-day visit has changed his outlook a bit."

Myth: "The surge has reduced violence in Iraq"

On the August 28 edition of CNN's The Situation Room, CNN White House correspondent Ed Henry uncritically aired President Bush's assertion from his August 28 speech to the American Legion that "[s]ectarian violence has sharply decreased in Baghdad. The momentum is now on our side." Henry gave no indication that he had attempted to verify Bush's assertion. Further, The Washington Post printed an August 28 op-ed by O'Hanlon defending the New York Times op-ed he co-authored in which, relying on data supplied by the U.S. military, he repeated his previous claim that "Iraqi civilian fatality rates are down." During a report containing an interview with Petraeus, on the September 4 CBS Evening News, anchor Katie Couric did not challenge Petraeus' assertion that "if you look at the country as a whole ... the number of ethnosectarian deaths, you name it, the number of incidents has been reduced dramatically."

By contrast, an August 25 Associated Press article reported that while violence is down in Baghdad "from peak levels ... the death toll from sectarian attacks around the country is running nearly double the pace from a year ago." Moreover, McClatchy Newspapers reported on August 15 that while U.S. officials have said civilian casualties have decreased in Baghdad, they have "declined to provide specific numbers, and statistics gathered by McClatchy Newspapers don't support the claim."

On September 1, the Los Angeles Times reported that "[b]ombings, sectarian slayings and other violence related to the war killed at least 1,773 Iraqi civilians in August, the second month in a row that civilian deaths have risen." The article added: "The statistics appear to indicate that the increase in troops ordered by President Bush this year has done little to curb civilian bloodshed, despite U.S. military statements to the contrary." Further, an article in the September 10 edition of Newsweek reported that "[t]he surge of U.S. troops -- meant in part to halt the sectarian cleansing of the Iraqi capital -- has hardly stemmed the problem." The report quoted Rafiq Tschannen, chief of the Iraq mission for the International Organization for Migration, who said that "the fighting that accompanied the influx of U.S. troops actually 'has increased the IDPs [internally displaced persons] to some extent."

In fact, the GAO, the latest NIE, the Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq report, and a recent op-ed by a group of seven soldiers in Iraq all suggest that the surge has not significantly improved the security situation and that violence in Iraq has not decreased. Moreover, a September 6 Washington Post article reported challenges to the U.S. military's recent assertions -- and scrutiny of a specific claim Petraeus is expected to make in his testimony to Congress -- that sectarian violence in Iraq is declining:

  • According to the GAO in its report issued September 4, the goal of "[r]educing the level of sectarian violence in Iraq and eliminating militia control of local security" was "not met," meaning that "there was no clear and reliable evidence that the level of sectarian violence was reduced and that militia control of local security was eliminated." The GAO further noted: "While it is not clear if sectarian violence has been reduced, militia control over security forces has not been eliminated and remains a serious problem in Baghdad and other areas of Iraq." Further, during testimony on September 4 in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Comptroller General David Walker, the top official at the GAO, discussed data surrounding sectarian violence and asserted that "there are several different sources within the administration on violence, and those sources do not agree" and that "part of the problem that we had in reaching a conclusion about sectarian violence is there are multiple sources showing different levels of violence with different trends."
  • Portions of the NIE that were released on August 23 contain the conclusion that while "[t]here have been measurable but uneven improvements in Iraq's security situation," "the level of overall violence, including attacks on and casualties among civilians, remains high; Iraq's sectarian groups remain unreconciled; [and] AQI [Al Qaeda in Iraq] retains the ability to conduct high-profile attacks."
  • The Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq, chaired by retired Gen. James L. Jones and created by the Congress to provide an independent assessment of the Iraqi Security Forces -- both military and police -- reported significant shortcomings with the Iraqi security forces, affecting their ability to reduce violence and provide security for the Iraq people. The commission reported: "The Iraqi Police Service is incapable today of providing security at a level sufficient to protect Iraqi neighborhoods from insurgents and sectarian violence. The police are central to long-term establishment of security in Iraq. To be effective in combating the threats that officers face, including sectarian violence, the Iraqi Police Service must be better trained and equipped." While the commission noted that it "believes that the Iraqi Police Service can improve rapidly should the Ministry of Interior become a more functional institution," its conclusion about the Ministry of Interior stated: "The Ministry of Interior is a ministry in name only. It is widely regarded as being dysfunctional and sectarian, and suffers from ineffective leadership. Such fundamental flaws present a serious obstacle to achieving the levels of readiness, capability, and effectiveness in police and border security forces that are essential for internal security and stability in Iraq." Regarding the National Police Force, the commission concluded: "The National Police have proven operationally ineffective. Sectarianism in its units undermines its ability to provide security; the force is not viable in its current form. The National Police should be disbanded and reorganized."
  • As Media Matters noted, seven U.S. Army infantrymen and noncommissioned officers currently serving in Iraq wrote in an August 19 New York Times op-ed: "The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. Yes, we are militarily superior, but our successes are offset by failures elsewhere." The soldiers also wrote: "Given the situation, it is important not to assess security from an American-centered perspective. The ability of, say, American observers to safely walk down the streets of formerly violent towns is not a resounding indicator of security. What matters is the experience of the local citizenry and the future of our counterinsurgency. When we take this view, we see that a vast majority of Iraqis feel increasingly insecure and view us as an occupation force that has failed to produce normalcy after four years and is increasingly unlikely to do so as we continue to arm each warring side."
  • In the September 6 Post article, headlined "Experts Doubt Drop In Violence in Iraq," staff writer Karen DeYoung reported that in his upcoming testimony to Congress on the status of Bush's Iraq troop increase plan, Petraeus "is expected to cite a 75 percent decrease in sectarian attacks." Citing the GAO report, the article added that "[o]thers who have looked at the full range of U.S. government statistics on violence, however, accuse the military of cherry-picking positive indicators and caution that the numbers -- most of which are classified -- are often confusing and contradictory." The Post added that "the intelligence community has its own problems with military calculations" regarding violence in Iraq. It also reported that one unnamed "senior intelligence official" specifically took issue with how the military counts acts of sectarian violence, because, according to the military, "[i]f a bullet went through the back of the head, it's sectarian .... If it went through the front, it's criminal."

Myth: "U.S. military deaths are down this summer"

On the August 30 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, guest host Christine Romans repeatedly claimed that American troop deaths in Iraq "are down this summer." Romans also reported that "[t]he Pentagon today is citing the surge in Iraq as a reason for a drop in troop deaths this summer" by comparing casualty figures in July and August to those in May, and she later asked if lower American casualty figures were a measure of the success of the "surge." Similarly, on August 1, all three broadcast networks' evening news programs -- ABC's World News with Charles Gibson, CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, and NBC's Nightly News with Brian Williams -- reported that the death toll for U.S. service members in Iraq was down in July. However, none of the programs noted at the time that U.S. troop death numbers for July, while lower than previous months, meant that this July was the deadliest July of the war. Nor did any of the news reports note that the death toll for U.S. service members during the months of June and July were the highest for this two-month period since the war began. Furthermore, while the number of troops killed in Iraq for the months of June, July, and August makes the summer of 2007 the deadliest summer of the war for American soldiers, a Media Matters review of the three network evening news broadcasts found that none of them have reported this fact.

Statistics compiled by the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count on its website iCasualties.org, which publishes death count totals provided by the Department of Defense, show that more U.S. troops have died in Iraq during June, July, and August this year than the same three-month period in 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006. The website currently lists the total U.S. death count for this period at 264.

Nevertheless, as Media Matters noted (here and here), media outlets continue to overlook the combined casualty figures for U.S. troops during June, July, and August, while claiming that there have been fewer soldiers killed in Iraq this summer.

Myth: Democrats agree the "surge" is "working"

In the last month, as several Democrats have commented on the current situation in Iraq, the Republicans and the media have routinely mischaracterized their statements about progress in Iraq to suggest that Democrats believe that Bush's troop increase is working and that the strategy has been successful. In fact, these Democrats have generally tried to make clear that their claims that progress was being made in Iraq referred specifically to military progress and not political progress, and that overall the troop increase was not working. As Salon.com's Tim Grieve noted:

We'll admit it's a fine distinction, but it shouldn't be so hard to understand. Is the "surge" having some success, in some areas, in reducing the levels of violence in Iraq? Yes. Is the overall "strategy" working -- that is, is the Iraqi government using the "breathing space" it's getting to do the things it needs to do? No. While it's certainly in the Bush administration's interests to conflate the questions and confuse the answers, the White House has people on staff paid to do just that. Journalists aren't supposed to be doing it for them.

Further, many of these Democrats had limited their claims about progress to the situation in Al Anbar province, which they often noted had nothing to do with the administration's strategy and which began 4-6 months prior to the arrival of any additional troops when local Sunni leaders agreed to assist U.S. soldiers there in fighting Al Qaeda. Nevertheless, as Media Matters has noted, media reports have repeatedly used Democrats' claims about Anbar to suggest that Bush's strategy is being successful, and sometimes to ask whether that success justifies staying in Iraq longer to give the surge a chance to work.

The following are examples of various media outlets mischaracterizing the statements of prominent Democrats to suggest that they believe Bush's escalation plan is working:

  • Sen. Clinton

In an August 20 speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) said: "We've begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly in Al Anbar province, it's working. We're just years too late changing our tactics. We can't ever let that happen again." An August 21 New York Times article reported that "[a]ides to Mrs. Clinton said her remarks that military tactics in Iraq are 'working' referred specifically to reports of increased cooperation from Sunnis leading to greater success against insurgents in Al Anbar Province." Several media reports following Clinton's speech, however, said that Clinton had conceded that the "surge" is "working." For example, MSNBC, the New York Post, the Associated Press, and The Washington Times all reported that Clinton said the Bush administration's so-called "surge" policy is "working."

Similarly, on the August 26 edition of CBS' Face the Nation, host Bob Schieffer falsely claimed that Clinton is "saying it looks like ... maybe the surge is working in the sense that there is less violence there."

In fact, Media Matters has repeatedly noted that Clinton suggested months ago that U.S. forces were achieving progress in Iraq due to better relations between tribal leaders and American military forces, while at the same time she was opposing the so-called "surge" and calling for a withdrawal of troops from Iraq. The New York Daily News reported on August 23 that Clinton made similar comments about Al Anbar province in March: "Camp Clinton insisted she was talking only about a limited improvement in Anbar, linked to better relations with tribal leaders -- a claim she made to the Daily News in March." Indeed, on March 16, Clinton told the Daily News that "[w]e seem to be making a little progress in Al Anbar province because we have an alliance with the tribal sheiks for the very first time" and discussed cooperation in Al Anbar, noting: "I don't know anybody who has looked at this from a military perspective who says that we would need a lot of troops to keep that up." In the same interview, Clinton made clear that she didn't believe the surge was working and reaffirmed her claim that some U.S. troops should be withdrawn from Iraq: "[I]f we could start now to do what many of us believe we should -- like no escalation and forcing political solutions and international involvement and all the things I've talked about for a very long time -- then we would be on the path toward reducing drastically the number of troops we have with these remaining missions."

  • Sen. Durbin

An August 9 New York Sun article on recent statements by Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) regarding President Bush's troop increase strategy in Iraq, made during an August 8 CNN interview, appeared under the headline: "A Ranking Senate Democrat Concedes Surge Is Working." While Durbin cited military progress in Iraq during the CNN interview, he did not "concede" that the "surge is working" as the Sun headline stated. Rather, he specifically said that he sees "two important parts to this story... As we are seeing military progress, any political scene is discouraging. We are seeing the al Maliki government once branded the government of unity coming apart. We are seeing Sunnis and others leaving and not becoming the stability of this country."

Similarly, on the August 22 edition of Fox News' Special Report, chief Washington correspondent Jim Angle reported that Durbin "once said the surge was not the answer, but now says the 'surge has resulted in a reduction of violence in many parts of Iraq. More American troops have brought more peace to more parts of Iraq. I think that's a fact.' " According to an August 9 St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, Durbin did, in an August 8 conference call, reportedly say that it's "a fact" that "[t]he surge has resulted in a reduction of violence in many parts of Iraq." However, he also said that the president's strategy had major flaws that would prevent it from achieving success: "Iraqi politicians haven't made the type of progress that would produce "a government of national unity," he said. Durbin added: "That is the weakness in the president's strategy. I think we have to start removing the troops. We have stretched our troops to the limit."

  • Sen. Obama

The August 22 edition of The Washington Post's The Trail, "A Daily Diary of Campaign 2008," cropped an August 21 comment by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) on the troop buildup in Iraq -- that "[i]f we put 30,000 additional troops into Baghdad, it will quell some of the violence short-term" -- and juxtaposed it with his January 5 comment -- that "an escalation of troop levels in Iraq was a mistake and that we need a political accommodation rather than a military approach to the sectarian violence there" -- to falsely suggest that the two statements were inconsistent. In fact, Obama reiterated his position from January on August 21, but the Post omitted the entirety of his comments: After saying what the Post quoted him saying, Obama added: "It [a troop buildup] doesn't change the underlying assessment, which is that there is not a military solution to the political dynamic in Iraq."

Myth: Democrats are calling for a "precipitous withdrawal" from Iraq

President Bush has used the term "precipitous withdrawal" to describe proposals for a timetable for withdrawal on multiple occasions, as have White House spokesman Tony Fratto and Sen. John McCain (R-AZ). Moreover, Vice President Dick Cheney said on August 6 that "this is no time to lose heart and make a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq, as some in Congress are demanding." In addition, a document on House Minority Leader John Boehner's (R-OH) website asks, "What would Iraq look like if the Democrats' plan for precipitous withdrawal were implemented?"

Media reports have routinely suggested that Democrats have called for a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq. For example, as Media Matters noted, The Washington Post's Shailagh Murray wrote on August 31 that Gen. David Petraeus "is expected to report to Congress next month that there are some signs of progress in Iraq and that a precipitous U.S. withdrawal could be disastrous," without giving any indication that the term "precipitous withdrawal" is used by Republicans to attack Iraq withdrawal plans, or citing a single lawmaker who has called for a "precipitous U.S. withdrawal" from Iraq. On the July 31 edition of NPR's Morning Edition, NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman asserted that Navy Adm. Michael Mullen, Bush's nominee for Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman, "will not be calling for, like the Democrats are, for any precipitous withdrawal of U.S. troops" from Iraq during his testimony before the Congress.

In fact, Democrats have advocated several plans -- including at least one supported by some Republicans -- that call for a "gradual" withdrawal or a "phased redeployment" of U.S. troops from Iraq, with some troops remaining in Iraq for specified missions after the withdrawal of most combat troops. Moreover, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) and Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI), co-sponsor of a leading proposal dealing with troop levels in Iraq, have both specifically stated that Democrats are not calling for a precipitous withdrawal. Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA), appearing on the August 26 edition of ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos, argued: "No one in a responsible position in government is saying that we should pull the plug in Iraq and have a precipitous withdrawal."

More recently, President Bush, members of the administration, and congressional Republicans have taken to simply arguing against a precipitous withdrawal, without attributing the position to Democrats. For example, Bush said on April 24 that "a precipitous withdrawal would increase the probability that American troops would one day have to return to Iraq and confront an enemy that's even more dangerous." In addition, Crocker and State Department Deputy Spokesman Tom Casey have both recently warned against the consequences of a "precipitous withdrawal," and media coverage is replete with examples of these claims going unchallenged (here, here, here, here, and here) and of the media failing to note that Democrats are not advocating such a position.

Nevertheless, as Media Matters noted (here and here), media outlets continue to repeat the assertion that Democrats advocate an immediate or precipitous withdrawal from Iraq.

Myth: If we withdraw troops from Iraq, the enemy will "follow us home"

For some time, President Bush has asserted that if the United States were to withdraw troops from Iraq, the terrorists "would follow us home" or would be emboldened to launch attacks against America. Media outlets have routinely reported Bush's claim without noting expert opinion that a U.S. troop withdrawal is unlikely to result in a terrorist attack on the United States.

For example, in a September 4 New York Times article, David S. Cloud and Steven Lee Myers reported President Bush's assertion that withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq would "embolden our enemies and make it more likely that they would attack us at home" -- without mentioning the numerous security and terrorism experts who have challenged this claim. Further, the article ignored a "Terrorism Index" survey by the Center for American Progress and Foreign Policy magazine, which found that only 12 percent of experts believe that terrorists are either very likely or likely to attack the United States as a direct result of a U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq. Moreover, some foreign policy experts have said that it is the U.S. occupation of Iraq that increases the likelihood of a terrorist attack on the United States. An April 30 report on NPR's All Things Considered quoted retired Brig. Gen. John H. Johns saying, "It's actually leaving American forces in Iraq ... that increases the chances of a terrorist attack on the U.S."

Further, according to an April 6 McClatchy Newspapers article, "[m]ilitary and diplomatic analysts" say that a similar claim by Bush -- that "this is a war in which, if we were to leave before the job is done, the enemy would follow us here" -- "exaggerat[es] the threat that enemy forces in Iraq pose to the U.S. mainland." The article continued: "U.S. military, intelligence and diplomatic experts in Bush's own government say the violence in Iraq is primarily a struggle for power between Shiite and Sunni Muslim Iraqis seeking to dominate their society, not a crusade by radical Sunni jihadists bent on carrying the battle to the United States." The article quoted a U.S. intelligence official as saying that "[t]he war in Iraq isn't preventing terrorist attacks on America" and noted that "the likelihood that enemy combatants from Iraq might follow departing U.S. forces back to the United States is remote at best."

Similarly, coverage of Bush's August 22 speech to the convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) uncritically repeated Bush's claim: "Unlike in Vietnam, if we were to withdraw before the job was done, this enemy would follow us home." The assertion is widely challenged by security and terrorism experts, but several media outlets repeated his quote without challenge. The New York Post, The Kansas City Star, and the New York Daily News all simply quoted Bush's claim. As Media Matters has noted (here and here), assessments from a wide range of U.S. intelligence officials, security experts, and military analysts disagree with this view. In fact, retired Army Lt. Col. James Carafano, a research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, was quoted in NPR's April 30 report suggesting that "asserting that terrorists will follow U.S. troops home [is] naive and poor rhetoric." Carafano was also quoted as saying: "There's no national security analyst that's really credible who thinks that people are going to come from Iraq and attack the United States -- that that's a credible scenario."

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    • Author by redking75687 (September 09, 2007 1:44 pm ET)
         

      And everyone just remember that a Democrat majority just funded this war crime for another year and refuses to bring those responsible to trial. This article even points to Dem plans not to leave but to stay in Iraq indefinitely. Guess we can't blame this all on Bush and Cheney now, can we?

      End the war. Vote Green or Libertarian. Only we will bring the troops home.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (September 09, 2007 2:35 pm ET)
           

        I think it's safe to say that those responsible for lying us into Iraq are never going to be held accountable. When was the last time you've heard it even mentioned by the bobbleheads in the MSM? Even when they are discussing the "surge" and the administration's tactical shell game, how we got there is never even mentioned. The most you'll get is a wimpy, "Well, we're there now, so we have to look ahead."

        Can't we do both? Can't we figure out how to proceed and still investigate the lies that got us there?

        We have more than enough former CIA and Pentagon officials who have stated ON THE RECORD that the intelligence was manipulated. Are they all lying? Isn't it even worth a look? Apparently the Press and the Congress think not. We have been sold down the river.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (September 09, 2007 2:47 pm ET)
           

        if we wait on a green or libertarian president to bring the troops home, we'll be there forever.  so that leaves two choices, democrat or republican.  more likely to happen with a democrat.  just a fact of life.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (September 09, 2007 3:59 pm ET)
             

          Maybe if the Green Party candidate had not entered the 2000 race, we would not be in the same predicament in Iraq.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by funnymanpants (September 09, 2007 4:06 pm ET)
               

            That's pretty unfair. I voted Green in 2000, but I lived in a solidly Republican state where I know it wouldn't matter. 

            We wouldn't be in Iraq if Americans weren't so thoroughly militarized, if the press had done their jobs, if our outdated voting system reflected the popular vote, and if we had a better congress willing to stand up to the executive.

            All these factors are more responsible for launching us into Iraq than Nader. There is a big problem with the American system that allowed a war based on falsehoods easily discernible beforehand, and I don't think those problems are Nader's fault. 

            I agree with Redking that the Dems need to stand up to bush, but I don't think voting green will really help end the war.  

            Report Abuse
            • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 12:04 pm ET)
                 

              That's true Funny we wouldn't be in Iraq if America wasn't so militarized. And we wouldn't be in Iraq if Nader hadn't entered the race. This was the same goofy country in 1999 which is why Nader's run was excruciatingly painful to watch. The Democrats hurt his feelings so he intentionally sabotoged Gore's run. He was playing with lives. He decided he didn't care. That things needed to 'get worse before they get better.' Must be a real comforting concept for the guy just back from Tikrit with one arm and no eyes. The equivocation about Nader's 2000 run has to stop. It was one of the colossal blunders of American politics.

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              • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 12:07 pm ET)
                   

                No offense to you intended Funny. I understand the difference in a non-swing state. I just find Nader to be just about as nauseating as W himself. Because he should know better. Bush is being true to himself (himself being vile) but Nader got perverse.

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              • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 12:27 pm ET)
                   

                "The equivocation about Nader's 2000 run has to stop."

                Bullcarp.

                Gore won in 2000.  Nader didn't change the outcome of the election, only the margin of the win.  If you want to throw a hissy, do it in the direction that deserves it, which is the very administration that had the SCOTUS override the will of the people and the administration that has sent hundreds of thousands to their deaths over abject stupidity and greed.

                I cannot accurately describe just how disgusted I am with leftists and left-leaners who suck the teat of corporate-steeped Democrats and point accusing fingers at third parties instead of risking a real effort at exposing and prosecuting the real thieves of our Democracy, our national wealth, and our lives.  Nader did not send us to Iraq, nor did the few who voted for him.  George W Bush, his family, and the RNC/GOP are responsible for the stolen election, the war on our nation, and for the quagmire in Iraq.  YOUR desperation to blame a minority for something they never did is what needs to cease.  Start blaming the right person.

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                • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 12:51 pm ET)
                     

                  Listen friend, I've been wearing myself out since the Reagan Administration trying to argue with the righties. So when Nader came along and very intentionally opened the door for them, it kind of ticked me off.

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                • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 1:21 pm ET)
                     

                  And how exactly are we supposed to expose anyone as you say when we are a bunch of angry people in the street with cardboard signs being ignored by the pro-GOP media? In the courts, loaded with crooked ideological rightwing Reagan, Bush, Bush appointees? We could take it up to the Supreme Court if they didn't load that up with ideologues too.

                  How Pure and marginalized do you want us to be? I think a leftwing branch of the Democratic party that makes noise but also delivers the vote instead of just spoiling has a far better chance of moving actual events. Do you think the anti-abortion crowd is satisfied with what they've gotten from the GOP? They aren't because they're Pure just like you. But they still deliver their vote where it advances their agenda. And they need to be stopped.

                  I don't want a goddamn cardboard sign. I want a semblence of representation in my government. I'm not going to stomp my feet and wait for a Hero who is Pure and let these fascists take the whole thing over.

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                  • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 1:37 pm ET)
                       

                    I'm not suggesting waiting for a Hero - anyone who gets to the eschelon of American politics where they are a viable candidate for President is going to be Garbage - note the capital G.  Garbage rises in politics, and we will never have ANYONE of ANY party who has only the good of this country in mind.  The Constitution was not drafted for us to elect a Hero, nor is our democratic republic set up for us to pick those Heroes.  It's up to the public en masse to be its own guide and its own Hero.

                    I'll put it this way.  Alice's Restaurant is one of my favorite songs, and Arlo's theory on social movements is correct - if one person does it, he's a quack, if two guys do it, they might be gay, but if every day there is a growing number of people doing it, it becomes a movement.  This movement, however, has not gotten big enough that it cannot be ignored by the corporate media.  Until it does, we're stuck with cardboard signs and donations to relatively meaningless groups like MoveOn.

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                    • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 2:27 pm ET)
                         

                      The movement that started back in 65? That movement took nearly a decade to stop the Vietnam War and that was with a much bigger generation of sign-holders who were far more inspired because they had the draft hanging over their heads. How exactly do we spread a 'movement' through this generation of entertainment addled spoiled little turkeys? The Right has gotten smarter. They now use an economic draft instead of a literal one. And there is nothing they love more than an infighting Left where the ideologues are too turned off by the process to enfranchise themselves. Much of the cynicism out there is manufactured and encouraged for this very reason.

                      It's a personality trait of conservatives to enjoy walking in lock-step. At least more so than with liberals. We can't let them use this simple fact to run the government generation after generation. THEY are in the minority. The only way they can keep running the government, starting wars and subverting the Constitution is if we keep believing that the electoral process needs to exactly reflect our vision before we'll take part in it. Being critical of Democrats because they aren't doing enough to counter the damage done by Republicans seems pretty nuts to me if we're not helping empower Democrats. Right now the debate in the halls of power tends to be between the Right and the far-Right. Until that changes we're all at risk of ending up on that bench with all the father rapers.

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                      • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 2:42 pm ET)
                           

                        "How exactly do we spread a 'movement' through this generation of entertainment addled spoiled little turkeys?"

                        That's the quandry, isn't it?  I like the turkey analogy, by the way, as turkeys are stupid enough to drown in the rain by looking up with their beaks open.  There are two ways to spread a movement, I would think: 1. Education and 2. Fear.  We've tried education, and it works - s l o w w w l l l y.  Gradually, the American public gets to the point where it can no longer deny reality, no matter how much it would like to.  Fear works better, and was more effective in the 60s - back then, as would likely do it now, it was fear of death for self and loved ones via a draft.  The Right will scoff at and do its best to never allow a draft, because the draft is the only thing that would guarantee a swift shutdown of their war machine.

                        By the way, are you listening to the hearings?  NPR is presenting it live.  So far, at least a half dozen people have been removed from the hearings for protests, more than I've heard in a long while.  I do think their number needs to be multiplied by 10, but the increase is encouraging.

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                        • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 3:01 pm ET)
                             

                          No kidding? I don't have it on. Sounds fun. It's naptime at my house. Just taking advantage of the quiet to banter with my fellow squirrels.

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                        • Author by mefirst (September 10, 2007 5:38 pm ET)
                             

                          nixon was supposed to be the end of republican presidents for a generation.  six years later, we got reagan.  and i do accept the explanation of voting green in the so called "safe states".   that in fact was the strategy endorsed by david cobb, the green party candidate in 2004.   nader, on the other hand, did not recognize  that strategy.   this link refers to a group called greens for impact, who criticized nader in 04 for his campaigning in swing states.   one can say that everything is bush's fault.   yes?   that and three dollars will get you coffee at starbucks.    to say that there is no difference between the democrats and republicans is simply wrong.   there was no chance that nader would win, but he did keep gore out of the white house.   the fact is that many of his 2000 supporters endorsed kerry in 2004. 

                          http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0909-01.htm

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                          • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 6:41 pm ET)
                               

                            Thanks mefirst, that simple perspective often gets lost. It's vital that greens become more of an impact. For some reason Nader made the claim that the best way of doing that is by punishing Democrats for not being green enough while allowing what amounts to fascists into the White House. I'm jumping all over this subject today because I see people still making this suggestion. Greens can become a much bigger, positive impact in electoral politics if they/we can get over this above-it-all attitude and learn to be an influential part of a coalition big enough to win the highest offices. The Democrats aren't green enough? Make them green enough! Join the freakin party! Nader's method is so perverse as to be completely insane. All I see is a guy who did good work for years and sadly became a megalomaniac. The hero worship that kept people on his side no matter how stupid the things he said looked more like Bush worship than anything else I can think of on the left. How obvious does it have to be in electoral politics that punishing a party by being a spoiler doesn't move the party in your direction, it moves them in the opposite direction!

                            Green Democrats as a powerful branch of the party, delivering votes consistently to the greenest Democrats is a theocratic, warmongering, polluting, corporatistas worst nightmare. For crying out loud it's time for that.

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                          • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 11:14 pm ET)
                               

                            " one can say that everything is bush's fault.   yes?   that and three dollars will get you coffee at starbucks. "

                            Well, yes, it is Bush's fault, considering he stole the election and put the Iraq juggernaut into place.

                            Your solution is instead pointing fingers at fringe candidates and placing blame where it doesn't lie?  How much do I need to pay for a cuppa joe with that one?

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                            • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 12:05 am ET)
                                 

                              Ok BLR, this right here, what you are doing is setting up a straw man.  At no point did he say or imply that his 'solution' to anything was to blame a fringe candidate.  Can you see how you are confusing his point?  If you really feel strongly about your opinions and know what you're talking about you should never have to do this.  To someone with the ear, you just sound either disingenuine or confused.

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                              • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 12:10 am ET)
                                   

                                And you ignore the fact that blame can be shared.  It's a fallacy to imply that the blame lies with Bush and therefore couldn't possibly lie with Nader.  Especially considering that you've already shown this yourself by laying blame with Democrats as well as Bush.  All of this DOES in fact imply that you are performing rhetorical tricks to cover something up.  I maintain that if Nader hadn't done what he did in 2000, we don't have a President Bush now.  Mefirst said as much as well.  You've said nothing to refute this.  You've played rhetorical tricks to cover the fact that you don't want to believe this.  Follow? 

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                            • Author by mefirst (September 11, 2007 7:48 am ET)
                                 

                              i never denied that it was bush's fault.  my point was where does that get you?  and you ignored two points i made.  one was that david cobb, the 2004 green candidate, urged those in the swing states to carefully weigh  their votes, which is exactly what i said.   and nader supporters like michael moore urged a vote for kerry in 2004.  it had become very clear by election day 2000 that nader was not going to even pull 5% of the vote.  the emphasis then should have become stopping bush, as marlo thomas said, when she came out publicly against her husband phil donahue's endorsement of nader.  

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          • Author by T-Hone (September 09, 2007 6:35 pm ET)
               

            ...Or, maybe if your beloved Democrats hadn't voted for the war and actually tried to stop it, we wouldn't have the problems in Iraq.

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            • Author by nerzog (September 09, 2007 8:28 pm ET)
                 

              There's plenty of blame to go around. First of all, the NeoClowns who let their obsession with Saddam Hussein drive them to LIE about the intelligence. President Numbnuts, who apparently knew that there was considerable doubt about that intelligence, and then stood in front of the world and LIED about it. The Press...holy crap..THE PRESS! They were either too lazy or too corrupt to stop the shameless drumbeating or even bother to investigate the dubious assertions coming out of the White House. The CONGRESS...the Republicans for stupidly rubber stamping everything Bush wanted...the Democrats for sheepishly going along.

              And, finally, WE THE PEOPLE...for allowing fear and Jingoism to cloud our better judgement.

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            • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 12:19 pm ET)
                 

              What's with this 'beloved Democrats' baloney that's been thrown around lately? It seems to me that most people supporting the Democrats are more intent on just trying to make things better. I've never seen so much of the hero-worshipping thing that the right seems so prone to. At least not with the political junkies hanging out around here.

              Again, I put it out there, it could be seen as voting for the lesser of two evils or it could be seen as voting for less evil.

              The Nader voters can slam the Democrats for not doing enough to stop Bush's war, but if you guys hadn't worked against Gore so hard, they wouldn't have needed to oppose a jingoistic president riding a tital wave of fear into Iraq. It could even be argued that a Gore Administration almost certainly would have continued the Clinton effort at going after Bin Laden and the country wouldn't have been so militarized in the first place.

              I argued with so many Nader heads in 2000 who told me things needed to get worse before they get better. I honestly can't help wondering if they feel some of this blood on their hands. No, they're too Pure I guess.

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              • Author by T-Hone (September 10, 2007 1:05 pm ET)
                   

                What's with this 'beloved Democrats' baloney that's been thrown around lately? It seems to me that most people supporting the Democrats are more intent on just trying to make things better. I've never seen so much of the hero-worshipping thing that the right seems so prone to. At least not with the political junkies hanging out around here.

                It's being thrown around by me because of the absurd and outrageous votes of many Democrats that are now being defended by posters on this website.  Why do people defend these votes? Who knows!

                Again, I put it out there, it could be seen as voting for the lesser of two evils or it could be seen as voting for less evil.

                It could be seen as that.  Why do you antagonize Nader voters for voting their conscience?  In 2000, Gore ran a terrible campaign, won, and then refused to defend his victory.  In 2004, Kerry ran a terrible campaign, won, and then refused to defend his victory.  Neither of these candidates ran on an antiwar platform.  But who do you blame?  Those darned Nader voters!

                The Nader voters can slam the Democrats for not doing enough to stop Bush's war, but if you guys hadn't worked against Gore so hard, they wouldn't have needed to oppose a jingoistic president riding a tital wave of fear into Iraq. It could even be argued that a Gore Administration almost certainly would have continued the Clinton effort at going after Bin Laden and the country wouldn't have been so militarized in the first place.

                Why do you assume that everyone slamming the Democrats for not doing enough to stop the war are Nader supporters?  I would wager a majority of people in this country are slamming the Democrats for not doing enough to stop the war.  And all the things that you say Gore could have done are things that he didn't do when he rolled over and allowed Bush to falsely become President. And, to borrow a phrase from you, "it could be argued" that continuing to let Democrats vote stupidly year after year without punishment is hurting the U. S. in the long term, albeit more slowly than letting Republicans control anything. 

                I argued with so many Nader heads in 2000 who told me things needed to get worse before they get better. I honestly can't help wondering if they feel some of this blood on their hands. No, they're too Pure I guess.

                I always think that it would be a humorous turnabout if people who voted for Nader tell the Gore voters, "good job, thanks for ruining Nader's chance at the presidency.  If we'd known your guy was just going to give up after he won the election, we'd have worked even harder to beat him!"  Perhaps they have "blood on their hands" too.    

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                • Author by worrierking (September 10, 2007 1:16 pm ET)
                     

                  We all have blood on our hands.

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                  • Author by T-Hone (September 10, 2007 1:24 pm ET)
                       

                    I agree.  My point is, why hate the Nader voters?

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                    • Author by mefirst (September 10, 2007 5:51 pm ET)
                         

                      gore hardly gave up.  he fought for 5 weeks to get the votes counted in florida.  there does come a time when you do concede.   the supreme court made their atrocious decision and we all had to live by it.  that is the system.   you accept the good and try to change the bad.   the alternative is chaos.

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                      • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 11:15 pm ET)
                           

                        "there does come a time when you do concede. "

                        I disagree.  When Democracy is in danger, you don't give in to the bully just because they're calling you names on national TV.

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                        • Author by mefirst (September 11, 2007 8:50 am ET)
                             

                          he didn't give in.  he tried under the present system of law to get the votes counted.  what would you have had him do?   lead a coup?   the supreme court had the ultimate power and would have blocked anything further he tried to do.   just repeating a lot of slogans is not reality. 

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                      • Author by anyfreedomleft (September 11, 2007 11:12 am ET)
                           

                        and the complacent media decided to portray him as a sore loser instead of acting as the Constitution stated.  Also, the complacent media did NOT play the clips of Rush Limbaugh saying that Bush would take the EXACT SAME TACTICS that Gore was forced to apply IF BUSH WON THE POPULAR VOTE BUT LOST THE ELECTORAL VOTE.

                        Kinda hard to fight against the media which kept portraying Gore as a serial fabricator (when the media itself was the culprit) while letting Bush's lies go unnoticed ...

                        And now, the Republicans in California are trying to change the rules yet again, against the arguments that they so shouted in 2000 - "The electoral college is just fine, quit cheating!" 

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                  • Author by wzwriter (September 11, 2007 2:39 pm ET)
                       

                    I don't.  In four elections (1988, 1993, 2000, and 2004), I never voted for Bush OR his worthless father.

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                • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 1:48 pm ET)
                     

                  I antagonize the poor Nader voters? Gosh, sorry, poor things. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I could see Bush and his crew miles away in 99. A guy who is aggressively pro-death penalty is asked who his favorite philosoper is and he answers Jesus Christ. The semi-retarded son of a right wing aristocratic family that has already launched one war in the Middle East that many in their very camp didn't think went far enough. A guy bringing the likes of Don Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney back into the West Wing. I knew who these people were and that people woud die if they got into office. I felt an almost painful moral imperative to keep them out. We had this imperfect blue-green guy running against their blood red. Nader had a bone to pick and decided to play presidential politics to make his point. He DIDN'T run against Bush, he ran against Gore, the one shot we had of stopping what I knew would be unnecessary bloodshed. If he hadn't run Gore's margin of victory would have made it impossible for these criminals to steal the thing. It's not just the votes Nader got, it's the fact that he was sniping from the Left while Gore was dealing with the full weight of the corporate rightwing media. It was sick and perverse. There's plenty of time to squabble within the party, but throwing elections to what amounts to fascist leaders doesn't actually help the cause. I told my Nader friends that lives would be lost that didn't need to if Bush got in. They told me things needed to get better before they got worse. Well, they're worse. So, mission accomplished for the Pure Ones.

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                  • Author by T-Hone (September 10, 2007 2:31 pm ET)
                       

                    What you call "sniping" was legitimate criticism of Democrats. Nader's earned the right (not that you really HAVE to earn it) to criticize politicians as he sees fit through his years of political activism and consumer advocacy.  Dems wouldn't have to worry about third-party challengers if they voted properly.  You can mock the Nader voters all you want, but they were an organic, predictable outgrowth when the Democrats failed to represent them.  Now they continue to fail.  

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                    • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 2:56 pm ET)
                         

                      Yes, he earned the right to be as big of a destructive ahole as he saw fit. And he lived up to that right fully. Bransby, he lied in 2000. You have to be willingly blind at this point to still believe his line that it made no difference who won the election. I understood why the younger folks who grew up during Clinton and didn't know anything about history bought it. But Nader only meant that they were the same to HIM. They certainly weren't the same to the thousands who have died as a result of 2000. Or the millions going to schools in the US that aren't as good as they would have been. I do find this purist bs to be offensive becase it seems to protect the pride and sensibilities of the Nader voter over the actual needs of real people. Nobody loves Ralph Nader more than Karl Rove. There is something really messed up about that and it DOES tarnish his legacy to a huge degree.

                      They asked him about Roe v. Wade and the danger of it being overturned in a Bush administration. He said that wasn't his issue. Well, if you're really running for President it sure as hell is an issue. What Ralph was admitting was that he wasn't running for president. He was throwing the worlds most obnoxious hissy-fit. He was deciding in advance that the lives being lost today in Iraq were worth it. Yes, we need to move on. But not by excusing and paving the way for the next colossal blunder.

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                      • Author by T-Hone (September 10, 2007 3:35 pm ET)
                           

                        Yes, he earned the right to be as big of a destructive ahole as he saw fit. And he lived up to that right fully. Bransby, he lied in 2000. You have to be willingly blind at this point to still believe his line that it made no difference who won the election. I understood why the younger folks who grew up during Clinton and didn't know anything about history bought it. But Nader only meant that they were the same to HIM. They certainly weren't the same to the thousands who have died as a result of 2000. Or the millions going to schools in the US that aren't as good as they would have been. I do find this purist bs to be offensive becase it seems to protect the pride and sensibilities of the Nader voter over the actual needs of real people. Nobody loves Ralph Nader more than Karl Rove. There is something really messed up about that and it DOES tarnish his legacy to a huge degree.

                        Ok, fine, say I agree with you here that Nader is an evil monster who should be burned at the stake. Do you discount the Green Party, which is actually trying to build a political party?

                        They asked him about Roe v. Wade and the danger of it being overturned in a Bush administration. He said that wasn't his issue. Well, if you're really running for President it sure as hell is an issue. What Ralph was admitting was that he wasn't running for president. He was throwing the worlds most obnoxious hissy-fit. He was deciding in advance that the lives being lost today in Iraq were worth it.

                        No, it probably just wasn't a big issue to him.  Sort of like how gun control isn't a big deal to myself.  I mean, I'd prefer some gun control, but it's not a big deal if people are allowed to have lots of guns.  It's an issue that I might use as a liberal political candidate to gain some support from righties.  By the way you talk, you'd think that no Democrats have ever given a fuzzy answer about their stand on an issue. 

                        Yes, we need to move on. But not by excusing and paving the way for the next colossal blunder.

                        Nor should we move on by excusing the deplorable voting histories and deplorable inaction of the Democrats. 

                        Let me tell you another thing, in regards to political realism.  The Democrats can move as far to the right as they want, but every vote is earned, and if the Dems take right-wing stands on the issues then they shouldn't expect liberals to vote for them.  Maybe they can win elections this way, but it's unrealistic for right-wing Democrats to expect votes from liberals.  Once again, if the Dems don't want third-party candidates to be a factor, vote in such a way that people won't be compelled to vote for third parties.

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                        • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 4:14 pm ET)
                             

                          Do you really think Gore was a right wing Democrat? Part of our disagreement might just be on the scope of what we think we can hope for from Americans in our lifetime.

                          And please, for your own sake, stop with the straw man arguments. The right wingers around here do them all the time so they're VERY transparrent. Earlier you said that people around here are defending VOTES of democrats and you aksed why? Do you understand why that's dishonest? No one I've seen around here was doing that so don't try to make people defend something they're not doing. Making the point that we'd be better off with Democrats in general rather than Republicans isn't the same as defending every vote of Democrats. And the 'evil monster who should be burned at the stake' is such a perfect image for a straw man. "Well, gosh I didn't say he should be burned at the stake". Anyway, the straw man is a real hallmark of the entire rightwing way of arguing so you might want to be more aware of it.

                          As for the Green Party, I think it's terrible. There's nothing better for the hard-core corporatistas, warmongers and right-wing religious zealots than splintering the one party than can get in the way of their agenda. The Green Party should be a feisty branch of the Democratic Party that can deliver the vote. It would respond more for the greenest Democrats, thus moving the party in a positive direction instead of starving it to death in order to teach them a lesson.

                          If I were a rightwing nut with lots of dough, I'd feel like I could do more 'good' by donating to the Greens than to the Republicans. We need to be green but we don't need to self-destruct in order to preserve some self-indulgent sense of being above it all. How much damage has to be done to society and the environment before the glacial electoral shift where we see Greens winning big elections? And what then? Haven't you just changed the name of the party on the left from Democrats to Greens? You'll be the old guy then arguing with the next generation to stick with you and try to understand the nature of a broad coalition. I hope there's still something left worth fighting for by then.

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                          • Author by T-Hone (September 10, 2007 6:47 pm ET)
                               

                            Do you really think Gore was a right wing Democrat? Part of our disagreement might just be on the scope of what we think we can hope for from Americans in our lifetime.

                            Well, he supported NAFTA and the creation of the WTO.  He supported the so-called "Defense of Marriage Act."  His credentials on abortion rights (something you seemed to make a big deal out of earlier) are questionable.  He supported the continued bombing of Iraq throughout the 1990's and the economic sanctions that crippled the country's economy.  The U. N. estimates that those sanctions directly resulted in the deaths of 1 million people.  Not my ideal Democrat, certainly.

                            And please, for your own sake, stop with the straw man arguments. The right wingers around here do them all the time so they're VERY transparrent. Earlier you said that people around here are defending VOTES of democrats and you aksed why? Do you understand why that's dishonest? No one I've seen around here was doing that so don't try to make people defend something they're not doing. Making the point that we'd be better off with Democrats in general rather than Republicans isn't the same as defending every vote of Democrats. And the 'evil monster who should be burned at the stake' is such a perfect image for a straw man. "Well, gosh I didn't say he should be burned at the stake". Anyway, the straw man is a real hallmark of the entire rightwing way of arguing so you might want to be more aware of it.

                            There is this absurd thread: [link to mediamatters.org] call that a defense of Clinton's war vote, with a couple posters agreeing with the defense.  There are probably other examples of posters defending Dems when they probably shouldn't. 

                            As for the Green Party, I think it's terrible. There's nothing better for the hard-core corporatistas, warmongers and right-wing religious zealots than splintering the one party than can get in the way of their agenda. The Green Party should be a feisty branch of the Democratic Party that can deliver the vote. It would respond more for the greenest Democrats, thus moving the party in a positive direction instead of starving it to death in order to teach them a lesson.

                            The Democrats could have seen the threat of the Green Party in 2000 and moved in a more progressive direction.  Which is, again, the thing you continue to NOT address: the Dems could not persuade enough voters to vote for them. 

                            If I were a rightwing nut with lots of dough, I'd feel like I could do more 'good' by donating to the Greens than to the Republicans. We need to be green but we don't need to self-destruct in order to preserve some self-indulgent sense of being above it all. How much damage has to be done to society and the environment before the glacial electoral shift where we see Greens winning big elections? And what then? Haven't you just changed the name of the party on the left from Democrats to Greens? You'll be the old guy then arguing with the next generation to stick with you and try to understand the nature of a broad coalition. I hope there's still something left worth fighting for by then.

                            I'd happily change the name of the Democrats to the Greens!  I like the Greens!  Having a broad coalition seems all well and good, all I'm saying is that if you take wimpy "maybe they're liberal, maybe they're not" positions on important issues, the reality is that you won't receive as many votes from liberals.  I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

                            I think you're assuming that I personally voted for Nader, which I didn't.  I was only 15 at the time, and would have voted for Gore.  I didn't know anything back then.  After growing intellectually the past seven years, I still don't fault the Nader voters for doing what they thought was right.  Nor do I fault the Gore voters.  I was in a relatively unique position to judge the 2000 race objectively and impartially, and I think I've done so.

                            The 2004 election was somewhat different.  Nader shouldn't have run, instead focusing on building the Green Party from the ground up.  Instead, a kind of cult of personality formed around the guy, and his bid would begin and end with him.   THAT is Nader's nadir, in my opinion.

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                            • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 7:56 pm ET)
                                 

                              I didn't assume you were a Nader voter, I just assumed you were young. I like your 'unique position' of being too young to vote, that's pretty funny. I'm not being mean about it, for a person your age you are way the hell ahead of the curve. If your entire generation was like you, I'd have a lot more hope for the country.

                              The argument you were making was to defend the Nader voters, my position was to say that they were dead wrong. While this was not such a big deal in a non-swing states, supporting him while he intentionally threw the thing to Bush seemed really irresponsible. My non-unique position was to have been around to oppose Reagan, to know who these cats were already and know that the moral imperative was to keep them out of office.

                              Understand, the majority of people I was around, including family and friends were not voting Gore. More were voting Nader. I knew the guy had gone off the deep end, so it was excruciating. Saying Bush and Gore were just the same was a reprehensible lie. And really stupid in electoral politics because being a spoiler does not move a party in your direction. It moves them in the other direction.

                              And pardon my combative tone about all this. You say you were a dispassionate observer in 2000, making you more of an authority on this now. In 2000 I was telling my friends that if we didn't keep Bush out, we'd be in a war in Iraq in his term. Maybe that was my unique position in 2000? I could see clearly that innocent lives were at stake. I didn't care so much about sending messages as keeping these people out of power who I knew from experience wanted to launch a war and would damage our society in order to do it. So the line that Democrats got what they deserve doesn't sit that well with me. I don't care about the election AS a Democrat. I was always an independent and I'm not the following type. I knew then and know now that thousands of lives could have been saved by keeping Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and all their insanity out of our White House.

                              The winners of elections get to write a lot of history. The cost of these right wing administrations goes on forever. You can never remember it so you'll never really understand just how powerful the myth-making has been around Reagan. They do a lot of 'reality adjustment' from their position of power. I've been hearing the 'things getting worse before they get better' line since 1984 and know that things getting worse tends to lead to things getting worse. And why were all these 'Greens' so willing to spend other people's lives and the environment on this 'message'? They began to seem just as bad as the Bushies to me which is painful because as I've said, I'm talking about family and friends.

                              The only lesson I can see from Nader's hissy fit campaign is a warning of how not to help your interests in electoral politics.

                              And PS, I liked your defense, but go back to your first couple of posts. You do have a tendency to misrepresent others positions to make your own seem more credible. This is really common today I think because of TV newsertainment. There are always these point-counterpoint 'debates' where the only goal is to appear like you've won. I think we've all become too used to the straw man. Rove's entire strategy was to NOT run against Kerry but to first create a different man who they could beat. Dangerous stuff for a society.

                              Report Abuse
                  • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 2:31 pm ET)
                       

                    'worse before they get better' is what they said of course. Gotta start proof reading.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 2:56 pm ET)
                       

                    "If he hadn't run Gore's margin of victory would have made it impossible for these criminals to steal the thing."

                    Do not underestimate the corruption inherent in those people and their supporters.  Nader's minor impact on key states could easily have been clouded over by the GOP criminals if they had needed to.  I watched the Ohio counts in 2004 from Cincinnati, and saw the local reports of lost ballots, RNC-paid ballot delivery drivers who "disappeared" for significant amounts of times en-route, etc.

                    These traitors are fully capable of any anti-American, anti-Democratic action that is politically advantageous for them.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 3:31 pm ET)
                         

                      I agree that they have zero respect for anything other than power. That's why we have to do what we can to keep them out of it as much as possible. That means forming broad coalitions under one roof. That means not being so freakin proud that we can't accept the blemishes on the people we vote for. You know, comprimise with people not too different so as to avoid being ruled by people we agree are completely corrupt. I'd be so happy to be griping about the shorcomings of President Gore right now. Lets get someone into office who isn't a complete fascist and THEN start sqabbling about how corrupt that guy is. I'm all for that.

                      My city just buried another kid coming home from Iraq last week. I think the paper said he was 19. I guess he's just part of things getting worse so they can get better. How nice that he died for a nutty cause from the left as well as the right. He didn't have much of a chance to learn the subtleties of politics that Ralph Nader surely knew when he told his admirers that there was no difference between Bush and Gore. I've wondered if he saw himself as such a life-saver by making cars safer that he'd earned the right to make life and death decisions? His enduring following in the face of his selfishness might be a hint as to where his megalomania came from. Maybe it's fitting that the one place on the left we see hero worship on the level of the Bush worshippers is in the camp of the guy who didn't mind Bush winning.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mary59 (September 10, 2007 5:38 pm ET)
                           

                        Nader did a great public service earlier, but the presidential runs were not in this category.  He would make a lousy president because he doesn't work well with others, even those on the same side.

                        The only way a 3rd candidate wouldn't be a spoiler is if we had run-off voting.  I also wish we had proportional representation in Congress.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 9:09 pm ET)
                             

                          The case I've been making about Ralph is that these weren't presidential runs. He had no intention of becoming president. Hopefully you didn't wade through that War and Peace size discussion I had earlier. I mentioned that when asked about the danger of Roe v Wade being overturned during a Bush administration he said that it wasn't really his issue. Well he might not give a damn for some reason but if you're running for President it simply IS an issue. If you really want the office, you don't just eliminate something that important to so many people. This to me was proof that he was running as a spoiler and he knew it. His whole thing was a perversion. Gore and Bush were exactly the same to him because he didn't give a damn about anything BUT himself in that campaign. It's not the first time someone who has done worthwhile things has eventually become a megalomaniac and wound up doing harm. This inability of his admirers to admit that he was wrong to do this because he was good before smacks of hero worship.

                          Damn, did you say Nader? Can't help myself.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by mary59 (September 10, 2007 10:39 pm ET)
                               

                            Oh dog of the sun, you nailed it.  But I don't worship you...just wish there were more of you out there, thinking straight.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 10:54 pm ET)
                                 

                              Hail Mary, how are you tonight?  I worship you a little but like I mentioned before, it's probably just a little Catholic flashback thing. 

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 11:01 pm ET)
                                   

                                Feel kind of bad carrying on this Nader dissertation on the 'Progress' article here.  But the entire Surge Progress thing was a sad farce years before it even happened.  The only thing more predictable was the MSM's stupid reaction to it as laid out faithfully by our slaves at Media Matters.  Thank you slaves.

                                Report Abuse
                      • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 11:21 pm ET)
                           

                        "How nice that he died for a nutty cause from the left as well as the right."

                        You're right - if only the vast majority of DEMOCRATIC representatives hadn't supported sending him to his death, he may have lived to see grandchildren.  Instead, the DEMOCRATS in office decided en masse that it was better to go along with the corrupt administration than to suffer the slings and arrows of right-wing smears and name-calling.

                        I'm sorry, I got distracted.  What did Nader have to do with the Democrats voting for the war, again?  For someone who continually decries strawmen, you seem to be very fond of the what-if strawman argument.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 11:57 pm ET)
                             

                          I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a 'what if straw man.'  A straw man is basically when you misrepresent someone elses opinion, setting up a 'straw man' which you then knock over as though you've actually defeated their argument.  How is my criticism of Nader a 'straw man argument'? 

                          Does it just bug you that I'm not criticizing Democrats?  You know that hearing me criticize Nader doesn't actually imply that I'm somehow purely pro-Democrat right?  The truth is, I am often critical of Democrats and the way many of them rolled over in the waves of nationalism leading up to the war.  There are actually several streams of conversation crossing here so it may be a little confusing. 

                          The thing that has been setting me off are these accusations of hero worship of Democrats directed at those of us who simply feel we'd have been better off with a Gore presidency than a Bush administration.  Hence the turn to Nader etc.  It seems painfully ironic to me to be criticized of hero worship because what I've seen from many Nader supporters is a holier than thou attitude about being so pure because they don't actually support anyone responsible for anything.  I've got a lot of personal feelings going back to '99 and countless discussions I had with friends, family and acquaintences who bought Nader's line about Gore and Bush being the same. 

                          Christ, this has been going on all day.  I'm filling up this entire post with Nader stuff, so if you really can't figure out what I'm saying from all those posts then you'd better ask me a more specific question.  Or explain what you mean by accusing me of making a 'What If Straw Man' argument.  Whose position have I misrepresented?' 

                           

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 12:19 am ET)
                               

                            Oh my god, I just went back and read your post again and realized how funny it is.  You said, 'What does Nader have to do with Democrats voting for the war.'  Which is a straw man argument because I never said or implied anything of the sort.  The great part is that you then go on to accuse me of making a straw man argument.  You see what we call that in English class is irony.  And also freakin hilarious.  I've gone back and read our thread and realized I'm either talking to a kid (which is fine) or someone who really needs to start thinking more about what they say.  Or both. 

                            Report Abuse
                  • Author by john henry (September 11, 2007 11:33 am ET)
                       

                    Sundog I had the same general experience. there was an assumption that after it got worse there necessarily would be an option to turn it around. there was an assumption that no matter what environmental harm was done we could not possibly reach a point of no return while the neocons were in control. To all the Nader supporters it is really your debt to make sure things get better. Will you be able to?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 1:43 pm ET)
                         

                      It's hard for me to not get fiery when talking about Nader 2000 because of how personal it was. So many people around me were no fans of Bush but they were unwilling to sully their Pure hands with a vote for the one guy who could stop him. And it was Ralph in their ear mumbling his conventional 'wisdom' that they were both the same. He was lying as badly as Bush. But, hate, anger and frustration don't get us anywhere and the Green Party seemed to learn right then that playing spoiler to help the GOP sure didn't advance their goals. So now when I hear from these Nader admirers that they are so mad at Democrats for not doing enough to stop the GOP juggernaut going into Iraq, I just about ralph all over my keyboard.

                      Report Abuse
        • Author by lapsedlawyer (September 10, 2007 1:34 am ET)
             

          And exactly how will that be different from how the Dems are now conducting themselves (never mind their rhetoric)?  It is time to let them know they can't just be so damn complacent on this issue!  It's time to take a pricncipled stand!

          Report Abuse
          • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 12:48 pm ET)
               

            Lapsedlawyer, just fer honesty sake, you're a Republican aren't you? On my old job a knew a few hard-core Bushies who thought it was real funny and clever to bait the liberals with the Green/Nader rhetoric. You sound just like one of these guys.

            And if I'm way off and you aren't a Republican, does it bother you at all that you could so easily be mistaken for one?

            Report Abuse
          • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 4:50 pm ET)
               

            Oh, hey lapsed, if you're still around. I was just caught up in another thread of discussion when I ran into your post and missed the context. Sorry about that, what I said was unfair. And I agree, it's long past time to take a principled stand on this.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by captfoster2 (September 09, 2007 8:54 pm ET)
           

        Red,

        Trusting the Green or Libertarian Parties to end the war is like trusting Cheney to come clean about even the most minute lie he ever told!

        The Dems certainly at this point can't be trusted either (as they haven't found their balls yet).

        In fact , one could almost blame the Green party for Bush even being in power.... consider how many votes went to them as opposed to Gore.

        But I digress, the illegal occupation by the Bush regime of Iraq, using the military to further the PNAC/Cheney Doctrine of a New World Order is as sick and vile as anything can get!

        To this point, has anyone outside of the liberal/progressive side considered the fact that many of those boys and girls are now looking at near 18 months of deployment!

        When do these true patriotic Americans get to come home?

        To those of you that propagate and cheerlead for this war, when will you find the decency to go and fight in their place so that they can have a chance at having a life here at home or are you all so pathetic to help fight a war you believe is/was necsessary?

        For those of you that fought in Iraq, I speak not to you but only to those that chickenhawk their way through life!

        Report Abuse
      • Author by sundog (September 10, 2007 11:54 am ET)
           

        That't right Redking, we need to place the blame where it belongs, on the Greens and on Nader for allowing Bush to get into the White House in the first place. So, thank you!

        Report Abuse
      • Author by Sams Computer (September 10, 2007 7:54 pm ET)
           

        The vote for Green has resulted in the Iraq War. Please tell me you have learned your lesson.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by funnymanpants (September 09, 2007 4:09 pm ET)
         

      Excellent run down of the facts. Hopefully these facts will work to counter the Patreus propaganda surge underway?

      I fell like it is 2003 again, and only a small group of people have looked at the situation carefully and know the lies, while the media and politicians march blindly ahead.  

      Report Abuse
    • Author by eweston8542983 (September 09, 2007 5:50 pm ET)
         

      According to Glen Greenwald's Salon column of Sept 9th. The public isn't fooled. As shurb raises the stakes perhaps the public will become more vocal in its opposition to the plan's of shurb and the corporate masters. This could get righteously strange shortly. Maybe they'll duck/weasle by another one.

      The Seattle Times is running a series of articles on the media situation this week. I'm interested in how they accomplish this project. 

      If you don't like the Democratic incombent, replace them. The willness of the public to support exit Iraq candidates would be quite clear. 

      Report Abuse
    • Author by dan8335 (September 09, 2007 10:01 pm ET)
         

      NPR still hasn't gotten the message that Michael O'Hanlon doesn't qualify as an Iraq war "skeptic." From Weekend Edition Sunday today (9/9/07) in the story "Nation Awaits General's Iraq Report", reporter Tom Bowman says:

      Petraeus has convinced some skeptics, like Micheal O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution. O'Hanlon recently visited Petraeus in Baghdad.

      Bowman neglects to mention O'Hanlon's well-documented and widely published prior support of the invasion and of the surge ... and that his trip to Baghdad was almost entirely orchestrated by the Pentagon. Pathetic. 

      Report Abuse
    • Author by ufleirx (September 10, 2007 12:49 am ET)
         

      Election politics are very sticky. I be careful what you wish for, Ewe. I find myself voying Democratic -- even if I should not at times -- out of the concern of making things worse. Truth be told I am afraid of even raising the possibility of the GOP gaining a seat in anything as it will only encourage them to declare they have some sort of mandate from God todo something ridiculous.

      Unfortunately, 3rd parties are not viable at this time and only a threat to better or more sane government -- as lately they seem more effective in dividing the left instead of the right. I know "better" is only a relative term but there it is.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by eweston8542983 (September 10, 2007 9:56 am ET)
           

        A democratic person can be replaced with another one. Primaries you know, though it may be a bit late, I don't think its too late.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by sfcretired (September 10, 2007 12:52 am ET)
         

      Harry Truman said "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"

      George W. Bush is saying "I'LL PASS THE BUCK"

      What a legacy that is! :-(

      Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (September 10, 2007 9:12 am ET)
           

        I always felt that Bush's motto was "What buck?"

        Report Abuse
        • Author by BLR (September 10, 2007 3:18 pm ET)
             

          And here I thought this administration's motto was "Buck you!" or, as Cheney so famously put it, "Go buck yourself!"

          Report Abuse
    • Author by clore3090 (September 10, 2007 1:54 am ET)
         

      Here's an example of how the surge is working: 

       

      The Iraq Freedom Congress (http://www.ifcongress.com/english/index.htm ) is a libertarian, secularist,non-violent, democratic, and progressive group that opposes Ba'athism, Islamism, and nationalism -- as well as the US invasion/occupation. The Iraq Freedom Congress has organized a self-defense Safety Force that patrols neighborhoods in Iraq (population: 5,000) and has reduced sectarian violence there to zero. However, far from supporting this effort, US forces have assassinated the head of these Safety Forces (http://tinyurl.com/25yknr ). News & Views for Anarchists & Activists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo/

      Report Abuse
    • Author by right-winger (September 10, 2007 4:59 am ET)
         

      TODAY IS THE BIG DAY!!! WE NO HOW FOX NEWS IS GOING TOO SPIN THE REPORT BUT WHAT ARE MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, AND NBC GOING TO DO? ARE THEY GOING TO LET THIS WHITE HOUSE GET AWAY WITH LIES AGAIN LIKE THEY DID BIG TIME WHEN THEY WENT INTO IRAQ? I SAY YES AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL FALL FOR IT AGAIN!!! I WILL BE GETTING THE REAL STORY AGAIN FROM THE BBC NEWS , MEDIA MATTER, DEMOCRACY NOW AND THE HUFFINGTON POST. THESE SITES TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS WAR BEFORE WE WENT INTO IRAQ AND WHILE WE WERE IN IRAQ.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by captfoster2 (September 10, 2007 7:37 am ET)
           

        And you call your self a right-winger.........

        (Said with hints of name any comedian)

        Report Abuse
      • Author by tweakthetroll (September 10, 2007 5:38 pm ET)
           

        Hmm, have you noticed that your sources have NO or FEW REAL staff reporters? Could it be they print,/show news as you wish to read/view it. You sound like there is a certain "news" that you will accept as fact if it sounds right to you.....but I could be wrong. I'm sure you will not watch Fox and their exclusive interview with the General and Crocker you would rather have someone else watch it then tell you what they think they saw and you will accept it as fact IF it comes from  one of you approved outlets. Doesn't that sound a little weird even to you? 

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mary59 (September 11, 2007 7:29 am ET)
             

          Exclusive interview on Faux...now that's going to be REEL informational.  Crocker and Petraeus as sources of information....hmmm.

          Scroll up a bit and you will find that McClatchey/Knight-Ridder news service were rather lonely figures during the run-up to the war, doing REEL reporting by checking the claims made by the Bush administration instead of just repeating them.

          Running interviews is not reporting.  Checking the accuracy of what the generals, pundits and politicians say is.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by HotWings (September 10, 2007 6:19 am ET)
         

      Please just come out and admit it.  You don't want progress to be made in Iraq.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by friedbergboy1422 (September 10, 2007 10:48 am ET)
           

        Hotwings,

        Please define victory and "progress," how long until troop tours of duty are reasonable in length?  What have you done for the war effort?  Have you given money to charities that buy troops armor they lack?  Do you vote for candidates who prioritize troop health care?  If the troop surge is working as well as you would like it to be, are you going to go serve so that the level of troops can be maintained?

        I hope progress is being made every day so that these brave men and women can come home as soon as possible, but I don't know how that is measured and what victory is, do you?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by tweakthetroll (September 10, 2007 5:50 pm ET)
             

          I have no dog in this fight, excuse me please, I think "victory" as I would call it the situation would be something like Great Britten, France, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Israel, Panama and very soon Cuba. (I know I missed a few) With one exception these country's were at war with us at some time and after the war was over their country's became modern and vibrant and their people have enjoyed much better lives than before. If this could be the case it will be victory for the Iraqi  people not the US military. And thats "victory" to me.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by worrierking (September 10, 2007 6:17 pm ET)
               

            Have any of these countries you mentioned had factions who've been at odds for 1400 years?

            Report Abuse
          • Author by achrispage6992 (September 10, 2007 6:22 pm ET)
               

            TWEAKTHETROLL,

            Your grasp of history is simply amazing. I wonder which war was it that we fought Isreal, Cuba or South Korea for that matter? Must have been sleeping in history class that day. Furthermore, our wars with Great BRITAIN and the French and subsequent victories did not elavate nor change their governmental make-up. Germany and Japan withstanding, your use of these examples to make your silly point is.....well......pitiful.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by tweakthetroll (September 10, 2007 6:40 pm ET)
                 

              Please read my post, I made an exception for Isreal....you missed my point... The US still has any number of troops in ALL of these county's to this day.....no matter what the conflict in that region at that time they are still there. I assumed you knew history and would not have to include your points in my post. MY POINT IS ..... this is a new age..... totally unlike the last 1400 years. Technology has changed everything..... it is possible for the US to have many troops in Iraq for the next 50-100 years....in that time victory for the Iraqi people is almost certian...... Baghdad should be as safe at night as East LA......oh wait a minute.....it is now.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by achrispage6992 (September 10, 2007 6:53 pm ET)
                   

                Uh yeah.....anyway when was it that we were at war with South Korea or Cuba. Factual errors make ones arguments....well....pitiful.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by achrispage6992 (September 10, 2007 6:55 pm ET)
                   

                I gues I will give you the benefit of the doubt if your point is sarcasm towards our involvement in Iraq. If that is the case, I apologize. If not, you don't really believe that Great Britain or France flourished just because they lost a conflict with us.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tweakthetroll (September 10, 2007 8:02 pm ET)
                     

                  South Korea, has, since the Korean war become one of the leading economic nations in the world due to our continued presents. Had we left they would have killed each other to the last man, so both proclaimed.

                  Both Great Brittan and France were sent home and guess what happened the US grew into the greatest nation the world has ever seen. I know that you know the British are the largest  holders of US assets of anyone in the world.... oh and that little Nazi problem France had in the big one the rise to power by the US sure saved millions of French men and women ....... history tells us if you are a country and want to be safe, prosperous and enjoy life to the fullest  you probably should have a good relationship with the US and work to keep it that way.

                   

                   

                   

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (September 10, 2007 10:02 pm ET)
                       

                    If only because if you are a WEAK country and you elect somone we dont like we are liable to END your democracy and install a dictatorship like we did in Iran, Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Brazil and Chile.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by funnymanpants (September 10, 2007 11:27 pm ET)
                       

                    Yes, the same history that tells us we went to war with Israel. Your bogus history.

                    The US has only been a super power since after WW2. I find in laughable that nations would wanted to get along with the US before that. I guess if you have a bogus history, you can make ludicrous claims.  

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (September 10, 2007 9:59 pm ET)
                   

                See you THOUGHT you had a point but as usual you DONT. The very concept that having an alliance like NATO and stationing supportive troops there is the same as the OCCUPATION we have in Iraq, is not a point its laughable.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (September 10, 2007 9:57 pm ET)
               

            The history on Planet Wingnut must be different than it is in on Planet Earth. HERE we have NEVER been at war with Israel, or Cuba, nor have we been at war with  France or Great Britian for almost 200 years. No reasonable reading of history would say France or Great Britian were somehow better off AFTER our wars with them. You just say whatever nonsense will support your weak arguments dont you. No matter whether they make sense or have any connection with reality whatsoever.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by tweakthetroll (September 11, 2007 1:04 am ET)
                 

              I have no dog in this fight, excuse me please, I think "victory" as I would call it the situation would be something like Great Britten, France, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Israel, Panama and very soon Cuba. (I know I missed a few) With one exception these country's were at war with us at some time and after the war was over their country's became modern and vibrant and their people have enjoyed much better lives than before.

              READ SOL......

              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (September 11, 2007 7:35 am ET)
                   

                Most countries evolve over time.  Let's hope the U.S. will evolve past the present militarism.

                Oh, and you need to get a job or find volunteer work.  Lazy is no way to go through life, son...

                Report Abuse
              • Author by achrispage6992 (September 11, 2007 7:59 am ET)
                   

                Holy Christ!!!! You can't be serious man. We have never been at war with South Korea or Cuba. How can you include Isreal in your original point and then make them an exception? Pitiful, pitiful, pitiful. Great Britain did not become "vibrant" nor did France following our conflicts with them. In any event we never fought nor occupied either on their home turf. Your supposition is unbelievable and qite frankly ignorant of any factual historical basis whatsoever. Do you really think you can get away with this bogus crap around half way educated people. It may work in your support group but not here.  

                Report Abuse
                • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 3:36 pm ET)
                     

                  Not all Christians are like that of course. But it is something of an indictment of the US Christian community that they aren't doing more to speak out about the murderous blasphemy going on with the right. If people are going to use Jesus politically to launch wars and do everything he preached against, seems like you'd be hearing some pretty loud Christian organizations fighting against that. Maybe since they're the real Christians they think it best to turn the other cheek? I think someone must've crucified irony by mistake.

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by john henry (September 11, 2007 11:54 am ET)
             

          Progress will not be made until we follow Christ's teachings. Christ said if you have a dispute with your brother seek reconciliation before going to Court(war). Christ said remove the beam in your own eye before you criticize your brothers speck in his eye. Christ said blessed are the peacemakers. Obviously if he returned in disquise and said the same things the right would call him a defeatist and an Blame America first traitor. I have not talked to any supporter of the war who asks Muslims who hate us-- why they do. Rather they all just accept the reason given by Caesar. I am not a Christian because Christians always seem to follow the opposite path to what the Christ taught. 

          Report Abuse
      • Author by worrierking (September 10, 2007 11:50 am ET)
           

        It's time for those pushing this war to stop being so divisive and admit that any gains we may be making are not sustainable without increasing military recruitment.

        The administration has had it's way for more than four years and it's taken all that time to figure out what Gen. Shinseki was saying before the invasion.

        Our military presence in Iraq is too small to secure a nation the size of Iraq.

        The right has been saying that this is the defining fight of our lives. They say that our security has never faced a threat like we face today.

        Yet their answer to the threat is a minimal troop increase and probably another tax cut.

        If it's as serious as they say then why aren't our ailing automakers being recruited to rush more Mine-Resistant, Ambush-Protected vehicles over to Iraq?

        Why aren't those people who support the war insisting that we re-instate a draft?

        Why aren't those people who support the war doing more to make sure that our wounded receive better care?

        We're all responsible for the mess we're in today. Every American would be happy to see verifiable, sustainable progress. So far all we have are empty words and variations of "stay the course".

        The ship is taking on water and headed into the iceberg. We need to change course. We need to get out.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by wzwriter (September 10, 2007 4:45 pm ET)
             

          It's time for those pushing this war to put their money where their mouths are and enlist.

          Or get their children to enlist.  Up to and including the drunken Bush Twins.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by john henry (September 11, 2007 12:00 pm ET)
             

          Our gains are not sustainable without increasing recruitment for the terrorist as well as the US. Gains like these will  in the long run escalate the overall conflict. 

          Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (September 10, 2007 12:57 pm ET)
           

        Why dont YOU come out and admit you are a warmonger who wants to see as many Americans killed as you possibly can

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mary59 (September 10, 2007 5:32 pm ET)
             

          Hi Solon, took me a sec to scroll up and see that you were responding to hotwings...

          Actually, as a citizen of both the U.S. and the world, I accept that eventually the Iraqis will work this thing out...but unlikely that this will happen with our military there.

          As far as taking blame for the invasion/occupation...not me.  I did not vote for Bushco; I've written letters, signed petitions, talked to senators, and am at a peace vigil every Friday.  We can all take action in various ways, and every bit will make a difference.  Lux Nobiscum.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by friedbergboy1422 (September 10, 2007 11:37 am ET)
         

      I agree. I think we have won and should come home, but the surge did not accomplish any of that.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by wzwriter (September 10, 2007 11:38 am ET)
         

      The dictator is gone. The Iraqi people (if not their government) are standing up to the insurgence, infrastructure that had been outdated for decades is being rebuilt. Iraqi children have a sliver of hope for their future. That's progress.

      The dictator was illegally driven from power by an illegal invasion, and sentenced to death by a kangaroo court.

      The Iraqi people are deeply embroiled in a civil war.

      Infrastructure that while outdeated was fubctioning, was destroyed by our illegal invasion, and has not been rebuilt, despite millions of dollare in contract money flowing into Halliburton's coffers.  Major dities like Bagdhad only have electricity for a few hours a day, when they had it 24/7 befor our illegal invasion.

      Iraqi children have seen their friends and relatives blown up and/or disfigured by our bombs, and have no assurance that will live to see tomorrow.

      That's not progress.  It's madness.  Madness started by a madman (George W. Bush), who must bear full responsibility for his war crimes.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by wzwriter (September 10, 2007 2:36 pm ET)
           

        I notice that the post I responded to was deleted.  I guess the "progress" the person who posted that referred to only existed in their imagination....

        Report Abuse
      • Author by libertyfan (September 10, 2007 6:28 pm ET)
           

        So are you saying that Iraq was some sort of nirvana while Saddam was in power? It sure sounds like it.

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    • Author by mapletootie (September 10, 2007 11:55 am ET)
         

      "Progress in Iraq"?

      Hah.

      The successful surge was going to be determined by the Iraqi government's ability to move forward. Hasn't happened. Ergo, the surge has not been successful.

      Saddam was removed, but was that truly progress for the people of Iraq? He was pretty impotent by any measure right before we invaded. How powerful have the various factions in Iraq become as a result of us removing Saddam? That's not progress either.

      Progress in the grand scheme of things hasn't been realized either. Since Bush has done such a catastrophic job in Iraq, the mideast is less stable than it was, and Iraq is not going to be a blueprint for any other government in the area. Democracy was never a good plan for a country like Iraq. Most of us knew that going in. What's the score now? Almost 30,000 dead and severely injured US soldiers? For what?

      Progress? Hah!

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    • Author by truthseeker77 (September 10, 2007 3:04 pm ET)
         

      McClatchy newspapers report that an Iraqi official has said August civilian casualty statistics in Iraq were "heavily manipulated". Statistics from Iraqi governmental agencies controlled by Al-Maliki are now discredited.

      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/19566.html 

       

       

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    • Author by chucko (September 10, 2007 5:41 pm ET)
         

      I largely agree with MMFA here, but this article is a bit biased and disingenuous when talking about 1) not waiting for Petraeus's testimony before criticizing any talk of progress in Iraq or the surge  2) Democrats and "precipitous" withdrawal.

       Hours before this article was written, MSNBC aired and wrote about Joe Biden criticizing Gen. Petraeus's analysis of the surge, calling him dead flat wrong.  And the Moveon.org "Petraeus or Betrayus" ad just came out as well.  Neither "waited" for the general's testimony today before criticizing him, am I wrong?

      Also, it is convenient that MMFA didn't include Dennis Kucinich or Bill Richardson's withdrawal plans for Iraq - both, especially Kucinich's, could be described as large, quick withdrawals, am I wrong? Didn't Biden even have a major disagreement in a recent debate about how long it would take to get our troops out (Richardson said it would take less than 6 months; Biden, about a full year).  

      And don't accuse me of being a troll: I'm a registered democrat (though I view myself as an Independent these days). I'm just looking for an accurate, fully informed debate here and I don't see it in this article.  The facts are incomplete.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by funnymanpants (September 10, 2007 6:45 pm ET)
           

        moveon.org? I didn't realize it was part of the Democratic party. Biden's criticism was of something specific that Patreaus is wrong about. He did not criticize Patreaus whole scale. 

        I wouldn't call 6 months precipitious. I am not sure what Kucinich has proposed.

        The article was very through and in depth. It seems like you are nitpicking?  

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    • Author by chucko (September 10, 2007 7:53 pm ET)
         

      Um, first of all I didn't say Biden criticized Petraeus "whole scale," I said he criticized (rightly, by the way) his analysis of the surge - I'll spell it out for ya: Petraeus is downplaying the lack of political progress and lack of sectarian reconcilliation in Iraq and still willing to stay the course.

      And Funnydude, I'm not the one (nit)picking and choosing facts to make my argument here; unfortunately, MMFA is by leaving out that Richardson and Kucinich both want full, steep/precipitous withdrawals from Iraq (and int'l peacekeepers to come in after we leave).  Yes, most democrats are for and have voted or advocated a "phased" withdrawal, but the above plans should've been included in this article.  That's not nitpicking; those are important differences for debate on the most pressing issue of our time!

       

       

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      • Author by funnymanpants (September 10, 2007 8:07 pm ET)
           

        Okay, if you want to be condescending, let me ask you why you included moveon.org? And Why do you consider 6 months preciptious? And what exactly is Kucinich's plan? 

        Last, how does Biden's statement contradict what MMFA posted?  Did MMFA say that no Democrats questioned Patreaus?

        Dude! 

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    • Author by chucko (September 10, 2007 9:50 pm ET)
         

      Funnyman, why did I include Moveon? Consider this: "Summary: Supporters of the Iraq war -- rather than waiting for testimony by Gen. David Petraeus and U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker on the effect of President Bush's troop increase in Iraq -- have engaged in a campaign to convince the media and public that progress is being made in Iraq and that the 'surge' is 'working.'"

      Because MM leaves out the other side of the story: that opponents of the Iraq war (such as Moveon.org, and others) didn't exactly wait for the pair's testimony to voice their opinion that the surge isn't working.  The impression you get from that summary is that ONLY pro-Iraq war voices tried to shape debate on the surge or voiced opinions of it before today's testimony and that's not really accurate. 

      And about Biden? Again, he didn't wait for the testimony today to voice his opinion of the surge, and neither did other democrats.  It wasn't a "campaign," so-to-speak of anti-surge proponents to counter pro-surge voices like the FreedomWatch ads and the Bush crowd in general, but MM shouldn't give the impression in this item that anti-surge voices kept their mouths shut before today, or if that's incorrect, that there is something wrong with the fact that pro-Iraq supporters should've kept their mouthes shut before today's testimony.  Both sides have made their arguments on the issue and will continue to do so...for a long, long time.

      And about Kucinich? Why don't you look up his plan yourself? And while you're at it, look up the definition of "precipitous." Regarding Iraq, it means a "steep" or "rapid" withdrawal of forces.  Getting 160-170,000 troops out of Iraq in a matter of months (6 or less) is both rapid and steep. Just ask Biden (who voiced his opposition to Richardson's Iraq withdrawal plans recently). And both Kucinich and Richardson are basically in favor for a rather quick withdrawal, especially in comparison to the other democratic proposals.

       

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      • Author by funnymanpants (September 10, 2007 11:42 pm ET)
           

        That's a rather weak justification for including moveon. Moveon is not a major media outlet. In fact, the Dems criticized the ad that moveon ran. 

        The anti-surge side did not wage a campaign. In that we agree. Biden's one comment, and an ad by a leftist group not even accepted by the Dem party hardly counts as the other side opening its mouth.

        More to the point, you certainly are nitpicking. The article never claimed that the other side remained silent. You might want to look up MMFA's mission statement, to report conservative misinformation. Besides, the pro-surge side has been waging a relentless propaganda campaign to convince voters the surge is working, and they have been telling everyone else to ignore the facts to the contrary and to wait for Petraesus. They themselves are not following their own advice.  

        You might want to stop your condescension. According to you "precipitous" means a quick or step withdrawal of troops. No. It means quick or sudden anything and I have never seen it used the according to your definition. I notice you have changed your argument. You don't know what Kucinich's plans are, so you tell me to look it up. No thanks. You made the statement, now back it up. Nor do I think Biden's plans qualifies:

        The world is different than it was when he first ran for the Senate, however, meaning withdrawal from Iraq cannot be doneprecipitously, he said.

        http://www.dailygate.com/articles/2007/08/29/news/01.txt 

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        • Author by chucko (September 11, 2007 6:35 pm ET)
             

          Ok, let's take this backwards.

          1) I didn't include Biden's plan for Iraq as an example of quick withdrawal, if that's what you thought I said. In fact, I endorse a plan of his ilk (though Iraq would never segregate into just 3 areas because the country is much too complex for that). 

          2) I know exactly what Kucinich's plans are, and how many "points" are in them.  I'm just not doing YOUR homework for you. He and Richardson (whom you conveniently, like MMFA, refuse to comment on) are basically for a quick, precipitous withdrawal.  And just yesterday on MSNBC, Joe Sestak said he was for a precipitous withdrawal as well. 

          A withdrawal of 160,000+ troops from any country in a matter of months IS sudden, quick, or whatever term you want to use.  Stop playing semantics.

          3) Again, MMFA sounds like they're crying when they complain that the pro-war side didn't wait for Petraeus to declare the surge is working when everyone from military insiders (via the WaPost), The Nation magazine (who called it a failure recently) and some (but certainly not a majority) of Democrats came out recently and didn't exactly wait for the general's testimony to question progress being made in Iraq. 

          That was one of MMFA's points in the summary: the pro-war side didn't WAIT to spread their misinformation.  That's fine but the anti-Iraq War side didn't wait either, though they were quieter in comparison. 

          Yes, the facts are mostly on the side of those who question the surge's impact (and I'm on that side), but it is hyocritical of MM to criticize one side for not waiting for Petraeus to make his case while ignoring that the other side didn't wait either. Just point out the Iraq supporters are wrong and be done with it. That's all. 

          And BTW, saying Moveon isn't "accepted" by the Dems is laughable. I respect much (but not everything) of what they do, but come on! You know you're wrong there.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by Goodfella57 (September 10, 2007 11:49 pm ET)
         

      This would be laughable if not so tragically ironic...MMfA, MoveOn, most Democrats and the radical (and not-so-radical) left have put themselves in the awkward position of having to root for the bad guys. Anything elsewould be an excuse not to hate Bush. 

      Sincerely, a troll

       

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      • Author by funnymanpants (September 11, 2007 12:03 am ET)
           

        Yup, you certainly are a troll, and your post had no substance. Can't refute the facts, huh?

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      • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 12:36 am ET)
           

        Goodfella, do you really not see how sick and stupid that is?  One side starts a war.  The other side says 'Yikes, bad idea.'  War side says, 'You hate the country!'  Other side says, 'No, hate this dumbass war because it's going to go bad.  It's a BAD IDEA.'  So therefore if the war goes bad, it's because the other side wanted it to?  You guys make points that are too stupid to argue and then you get smug like you've won something.  Do you know what that is?  That is arrogance of power.  You think rooting for the Bush people makes you powerful too.  Why don't you just own up to it?  Maybe it would feel even better?  "Hey, my heros can start wars and kill people which makes me feel tough and then I can make fun of you."  Have I misrepresented you? 

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        • Author by Goodfella57 (September 11, 2007 1:44 am ET)
             

          You people just don't get it. It's...oh never mind - it's pointless to even argue about it.

          Let's bring 'em all home and let the bloodbath in Iraq begin.  Sorry - it really IS that simple. 

          This enemy is crazy and will stop at nothing to take over the free world. Look at what's happening in Iran. That's the future here if we don't take action.  

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          • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 10:21 am ET)
               

            Ok goodfella, Now I see you making a point.  Hopefully that was a misreprentation of you beause someone like that would be really disgusting.  I completely disagree with your point but that's another matter.  If you have a view of the world where small groups of religious nuts from the Middle East can take over America, you should just say so.  Because then we can at least talk.  Throwing out some really bad, dishonest rhetorical trick that sounds like something Rush Limbaugh belched up doesn't really help matters.  You come across as not really caring about what is true because you simply lean on the fact that there are people in power supporting your view.  Well, if you have to cover your 'arguments' with fallacies that amount to nya nya taunts, it doesn't do much to make your case or make the people in power correct.   

            And to address what I think is your point.  These groups of nuts can only really affect America if we let them by throwing away our civil liberties out of fear and being drawn into wars that just help them stoke more hate and drain our treasury for generations to come.  Now please, we are fellow citizens, if you disagree with that argument, can you actually say why?  Thanks  -SD

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            • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 11:15 am ET)
                 

              And goodfella, you should be aware of a painful irony in what you say about Iran.  There is a new generation come of age in Iran since the revolution and throughout the Clinton years they were becoming more and more pro-Western.  Have you only recently begun to pay attention to world events?  There are some good articles on this movement from the 90's.

              It was Bush reacting to a group of Saudi religious terrorists by invading the unrelated, secular state that neighbors Iran that sparked the current kookyness there.  The fanatics get a following by playing on Iranian's fear of the US caused by Bush's war that he claimed was to stop terrorism.  Get the irony?  We are helping the people in Iran who hate us by fighting a war that is supposed to fight terrorism.  I don't know how to make that any clearer.  You can call people crazy all you want but invading countries with the most powerful military in the world can make people kind of think we're crazy too.  Fear does that.  Can you not see that a decent Iranian citizen feeling the weight of our military next door while our president calls them 'Axis of Evil' might be encouraged to be sort of against the US?  He's looking at a very real possibility of an American bomb blowing apart his children in their beds.  Sorry for the drama, but that's real.  His chances of facing that are far far greater than the chance of some Middle Eastern nut blowing up my house in Iowa for example.  And what I see as increasing the chances of either of these things happening are the policies of the Bush Administration.

              What makes you so prone to believe the line coming from the Bushies?  To many of us who studied world events for years it looked really wrong from the start.  They kept you from listening to us by saying we just didn't love our country enough.  Now they have been proven wrong about EVERY major point they've made.  Why is it that you still want to buy into arguments that don't stand up to facts?  Is it fear?  I'm not taunting, I'm really asking. 

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              • Author by Goodfella57 (September 11, 2007 1:59 pm ET)
                   

                 Sundog,

                Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I see that we agree on some things:

                There is a new generation come of age in Iran since the revolution and throughout the Clinton years they were becoming more and more pro-Western.I couldn't agree more...the only way to stop the radicals in Iran is to get the people of Iran to revolt. 

                The fanatics get a following by playing on Iranian's fear of the US caused by Bush's war that he claimed was to stop terrorism. Get the irony?  We are helping the people in Iran who hate us by fighting a war that is supposed to fight terrorism. But they are misinforming the people in Iran through propaganda. How do you fight that? We still need to do what is right. 

                Can you not see that a decent Iranian citizen feeling the weight of our military next door while our president calls them 'Axis of Evil' might be encouraged to be sort of against the US?  He's looking at a very real possibility of an American bomb blowing apart his children in their beds. Americans don't blow up civilians and children in their beds. Al-Queada does that - It's their mission. If you believe American Military intensionally targets civilians,  then we have nothing more to discuss because we clearly will never agree on anything. 

                 His chances of facing that are far far greater than the chance of some Middle Eastern nut blowing up my house in Iowa for example. And what I see as increasing the chances of either of these things happening are the policies of the Bush Administration. I disagree - I believe the policies of this administration are keeping terrorism at bay - The "Middle Eastern Nuts" wil stop at nothing to destroy us here in America. No amount of discussion or appeasement will stop them - Only military strength. 

                To many of us who studied world events for years it looked really wrong from the start.  They kept you from listening to us by saying we just didn't love our country enough.  Now they have been proven wrong about EVERY major point they've made.  Why is it that you still want to buy into arguments that don't stand up to facts?  Is it fear?  I'm not taunting, I'm really asking.   It is said that 10% of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world are radical jihadist . That's 110 million people who will stop at nothing to rid the world of western civilization. You need to get over your hatred of Bush and look at the facts.

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                • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 3:27 pm ET)
                     

                  Goodfella, don't start with the 'Rightwing arguing 101' please. I thought we were trying to talk. Putting words into my mouth by implying that I think the US targets civillians in their beds makes you sound like you listen to the hard-core jingoists a lot because you adopt their methods. It's cheap, dishonest and makes you look like a fool. You insult me to try to appear more right? Maybe trying to get me angry? Let's move on.

                  Just to address that one point, let me ask you a question. What difference does it make if when a US bomb hits a civilian target it wasn't intentionally targeting those civilians? Ok, I can see it makes a difference to us in the sense that we don't have to feel so bad about it. But if I'm digging my babies out of the rubble of my home, how much of a comfort will it be to me that it was an accident? I'm thinking that guy might have just preferred that the US wasn't dropping bombs ANYWHERE in his country. So pointing out that it's unintentional doesn't refute my point that this war is breeding the enemies you so fear. Stick with me. It doesn't refute my point. Is that why you added the thing about me thinking the US targets civillians? To cover the fact that you didn't have a point?

                  And I'm sorry but using false statistics is really embarrasing too. "It is said that 10% are radical Islamicists." It is said? By whom? One of the clowns on Fox and Friends? It is also said and in fact proven that Fox viewers are the worst informed of any news consumers. That's proven by the ones who feel so smart they actually fill out the questionaires. I could do a quick search and show you some of those studies. So could you. But I'd recommend looking up that 10% number again. And maybe thinking about what 'radical Islamicist' means exactly anyway.

                  Is the problem that you can't sympathise with people different than you? They're scary so you'd just prefer them to be enemies?

                  Your post is so confusing, I'm having trouble addressing your comments. I made the point that starting this war of occupation is causing fear and hatred of the US. Thus helping create the enemies we were supposedly going in to protect ourselves from. Your counter to this was that it's not our fault because they are being lied to by propagandists? About what? That the US is their enemy and they'd better join the fight against them? But my very point was that Bush is making this argument very easy for these 'propagandists.' Thus the war is counterproductive. You dismiss this by saying that we have to do what's right. But I thought what we were discussing was whether or not it is right. So essentially you talked in circles and then concluded the discussion about whether or not the fight is right by saying that it's right because we have to do what is right.

                  How does this stuff work for you? I'm honestly not seeing any logic here. Or compassion for other human beings, or an ability to simply empathise with someone different than you or any understanding of history beyond what is being 'discussed' contemporarily on a narrow band of right-wing media. I know that this sounds like an indictment and it is. But it's an honest one. You throw emotional fear-based stuff at me completely devoid of logic. Could you try again? With honesty, how is the war Bush started in Iraq making the world safer from terrorism?

                  Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (September 11, 2007 1:40 am ET)
           

        Yes you are a troll and people like YOU have put yourself into the unenviable position of rooting for getting as many Americans killed as possible or else you wont be doing your duty as good Bush idolotors

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    • Author by king60 (September 11, 2007 12:11 am ET)
         

      Unbelievable load of lies but what can anyone expect from this lib site!

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      • Author by laserpotato (September 11, 2007 12:14 pm ET)
           

        King60, I've a feeling you didn't actually read the article or click on any of the links. You didn't even skim over it. All it took was the mere SUGGESTION that the "surge" isn't working to elicit that response. Be honest now, you've trolled the comments section of every article you can find that suggests the "surge" isn't working, haven't you?

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    • Author by mary59 (September 11, 2007 12:21 am ET)
         

      It's pretty sad that after all this time people come on here and elsewhere with "you don't want us to win" crap.  Win what?

      Tell us what you want to accomplish in Iraq.  Then tell us how to  stop all the killing and bring back basic services.  Stop lying about "progress" the Iraqis know it's a lie and want us out.

      The only way we could win would be if someone could mend all the broken hearts and bring the dead back to life.

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      • Author by laserpotato (September 11, 2007 12:25 pm ET)
           

        Mary, you DO realize these are the very same people who think we could have "won" the Vietnam War...

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        • Author by mary59 (September 11, 2007 12:57 pm ET)
             

          Yep, plus the young and naive.

          My brother is a Vietnam vet; my hubby hangs out with a number of Vietnam vets, and they all can't stand what shrub has done and is doing.  They've seen the misery, the death and the dying and know that BushCo doesn't care.

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      • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 2:11 pm ET)
           

        Mary, they want to Win the Victory! Why can't you understand that? It makes perfect sense. So stop thinking. Stop......stop it! You're still thinking aren't you? You really DO want America to lose don't you? That proves it.

        I wonder if I could get Hannity to beat me over the head with a red white and blue bible? That would be so cleansing.

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    • Author by doughpro1604643 (September 11, 2007 3:45 pm ET)
         

      So we bring the troops home, then what? Where exactly do the Dems stand on anything? What are their plans, their strategies, their beliefs about this country if the troops come home and we abandon Iraq?

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      • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 4:18 pm ET)
           

        Dough, you seem to be repeating the line that the big indictment of the Democrats is that they don't have a good enough solution to the problems caused by Republicans. I could just throw the same question back at ya. What are Republican's plans here? Oh yea, is it winning? Good stuff there. Sure is hard to say that you're for winning.

        They brought in extra troops, buttoned down a few areas at the expense of a few others and called it 'progress.' So what happens in another year of this? That 'progress' remains just as it is and we just keep 'progressing' until the whole country is a barricaded fortress? What exactly is the GOP plan? It's not for a war surely. Because in war your opponent takes action as well. And their 'plan' as laid out by Bush's pigeon kind of takes that out of the picture. Again, the same arrogance about imposing our will. As though it's that simple. I don't think anyone near the top believes any of their own line in the least. All I'm seeing is them trying to set up a situation where they can blame Democrats for their blunder.

        It's wild how regular folks adopt the spoon-fed rhetorical tricks fed down the line. Your post reminds me of the most bizarre argument I've ever seen in American politics. In 2004 one of the biggest criticisms of Kerry was that he didn't have a good enough solution for the mess that Bush had gotten us into. So the conclusion was that we should stick with Bush. And people freakin bought it!

        How many years do these Republican leaders have to be wrong about every aspect of this war for it not to be Democrats fault? Shouldn't your ire be directed a little more at the folks who were so eager to get us in here in the first place? The folks who ignored all warnings about this not being a good idea and incredibly denounced their critics as hating America? The people who told us about dead-enders and being welcomed as liberators how many years ago? Maybe we should see about getting them the hell out before criticizing the opposition party for not being able to explain how they're going to turn Republican dung into roses? Do you just want more dung? How's that for spoon feeding.

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        • Author by doughpro1604643 (September 11, 2007 6:43 pm ET)
             

          You are an ignorant fool who does nothing but spew the bs of the lunatic left. You MMFA fruit-loops are bought and paid for. Be proud that you are spending your time blogging your load of sh** instead of thinking about those who died 6 years ago to this day. Be proud that all you can come up with is cleaning up the right’s “mess”. Be proud that you have listened to so much left propaganda that you actually believe it. Be proud that your life is spent whacking away on a computer, working for Anti-American crooks who don’t give a damn about you, and probably never will. You are a lapdog for the left-wing hippie generation. I didn’t like them then, and I still don’t. You have made a big mistake, though, calling a highly-decorated general a liar.

          It is the same whackos in here all the time, at all hours of the night, constantly digging at anything that is right with this country. You spit out nothing but hatred and loathing for anything patriotic. Get the heck out of here if it is such a horrible place to you. I hear Greenland is always in need of chum.

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          • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 6:57 pm ET)
               

            Nice post Dough!  Didn't really address anything at all but really revealing.  I'm so sorry for you. 

             Were the decorated generals who warned Bush against this war big heros of yours too?  Seems that if you disagree with this administration your career might get a little shortened.   Seems like maybe they've tried to make the military into a bit of a party apparatus.  If I'm not mistaken that has to be about the MOST un-American thing I can think of.  Dough, do you know that American values are real things?  A flag isn't a value.  It's a flag.  The word 'freedom' isn't a value but freedom is.  I believe in freedom.  I believe in transparrent government and citizens who can speak their mind.  Do you realize that calling someone unpatriotic for criticizing the government is in itself totally un-American.  If you disagree with me, prove me wrong.  You just seem to want to kill me or something.  I maintain that because you don't understand what is great about our country you are one of the most un-American jerks I've ever had the displeasure of encountering.  Up yours for your stupid response to what was an honest question.  You're a crappy American and I've actually given you reasons why that's true.  Enjoy.

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            • Author by doughpro1604643 (September 11, 2007 9:48 pm ET)
                 

              I would trust the military before I trust anyone in a governmental position, especially the clowns who currently occupy the House and the Senate. There is honor in the military, and that is more than I can say for the crooks in power now. Those currently in office are beholding to nobody but each other, and that goes for both parties. They pledge allegiance to the almighty dollar, and that is disgusting. As soon as they are elected into office they are working on getting re-elected. They do not have the values of our founding fathers, they have the values of gutter sl*ts who would run naked through the streets for a buck. Thanks to them, this country is run by special interests groups and agenda-driven maniacs who use their wealth to control them like puppets.

              I suppose you also believe that Bush is behind 9/11 and that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile. I have a friend who lost a wife in the plane that hit the Pentagon. I would love for you to tell him to his face that it wasn't really a plane. The end result would be entertaining.

              We were attacked, why can't you extremist "thinkers" understand that that should not be tolerated? In 1998, Clinton stated that we needed to go after Hussein. Was he wrong?

              Speaking of Clinton, what is this I hear about Hillary supporting the People's Liberation Army? What other "movements" does she support? Hmm, I see the onion beginning to peel.................

              http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57450

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              • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 10:30 pm ET)
                   

                Dough, you're impossible to have a discussion with because you just fly off the handle.  I made a lot of legitimate points in my first post.  You responded by calling me a moron, fruitloop hippie who is unpatriotic and yadda yadda.  You didn't address one actual point I made and you don't know the first thing about me.  I'm part of a family that is 7 full generations of citizens who have lived, worked, and fought for this country.  I've spent my life studying history, especially American history which for me is the single most interesting turn of events in the span of civilization.  I'm absolutely a product of this country in that I see my government as being made of citizens working FOR citizens and not some goddamn aristocracy and not some neo-fascist s-hole where the symbols of freedom and justice get used against us to take away our freedom and justice.  Nobody has ever died for the flag.  They died to create something great and I won't sit by and see ANY president subvert the Constitution he claims to protect without saying what I think.  And I won't let someone call me unpatriotic for spending my time trying to make my one small voice heard without throwing it back in his face.   

                 

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        • Author by doughpro1604643 (September 11, 2007 6:50 pm ET)
             

          Oh, and in case you haven't heard, since you probably spend most of your life in your basement with your tin-foil hat on, the surge is working. Expect your commie-loving friends to switch gears on the whole thing any day now.

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          • Author by sundog (September 11, 2007 7:01 pm ET)
               

            Commie loving friends?  C'mon, this is a put on isn't it?  You're not a real rightie are you?  That's gotta be satire. 

            Report Abuse
          • Author by mary59 (September 12, 2007 9:45 am ET)
               

            All your fellow Americans that you rail against (and if you were honest, think is more of an enemy than "Al Quaida")

            include many retired generals and veterans. 

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    • Author by ThomH (September 11, 2007 9:48 pm ET)
         

      In debating the Iraq question, neither the press nor Congress considers the opinions of the Iraqis.  We hear nothing on the subject. It is not just that the preponderance of Iraqis want us to leave,  but a respected poll last year revealed that majorities of both Shias and Sunnis are in favor of the armed attacks that are killing our troops. 

      How can the press endlessly discuss reconciliation between Shias and Sunnis without noting that on one issue they are alreedy united: clear majorities of both support the attacks on our troops.

      Given that fact, why are we still there?  Too bad no one asked Gen. Petraus this question. 

      And, if indeed they have a democracy, why hasn't their parliament reflected the wishes of their constituents and asked us to leave?

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