Scarborough on "perfecting Jews" controversy: "I think Jesus had a different take than Ann Coulter"
On the October 12 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, host Joe Scarborough responded to right-wing pundit Ann Coulter's comment on the October 8 edition of CNBC's The Big Idea that Christians "just want Jews to be perfected, as they say," as documented by Media Matters for America. Scarborough said, "I really don't think Ann had it right when she said that Christianity was about perfecting Jews. If you read the New Testament, actually, Christianity is about serving others." After playing a video clip of the exchange between Coulter and Deutsch, Scarborough said:
Well, you know, I think Jesus had a different take than Ann Coulter, which he quite clearly says, time and again, that Christianity is about helping -- feeding the poor, visiting those who are sick in hospitals, visiting those in prisons, giving hope to the hopeless, doing all the things that have nothing to do with condemning other people like Ann Coulter just did.
Scarborough later described Coulter as "a marketing machine," adding that Coulter "puts out a book, and attacks 9-11 widows, she talks about the need for Jews to be 'perfected,' she makes statements like these, and it fuels her book sales." As noted by Media Matters, in her book Godless: The Church of Liberalism (Crown Forum, 2006), Coulter described the 9-11 widows as "... millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by grief-arazzis. I've never seen people enjoying their husbands' deaths so much." Contributor Willie Geist and co-anchor Mika Brzezinski agreed with Scarborough that Coulter makes shocking statements to boost her book sales.
From the October 12 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe:
SCARBOROUGH: Also -- you know what? I -- jeez, I hate to do this. Let's run this clip. That's right, here's Ann Coulter on Donny Deutsch's show.
[begin video clip]
COULTER: No, we think -- we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.
DEUTSCH: Wow, you didn't really say that, did you?
COULTER: Yeah -- no, that's what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws. We know we're all sinners --
DEUTSCH: In my old days, I would have argued -- when you say something absurd like that, there's no --
COULTER: What's absurd?
DEUTSCH: Jews are going to be perfected. I'm going to go off and try to perfect myself --
COULTER: Well, that's what the New Testament says.
DEUTSCH: Ann Coulter, author of If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans, and if Ann Coulter had any brains, she would not say Jews need to be perfected. I'm offended by that personally.
[end video clip]
SCARBOROUGH: All right, so there you go, offended by that. Willie?
BRZEZINSKI: You know, it's enough, it's enough.
GEIST: We were talking before the show, Joe. At some point, if you shock and shock and shock, it ceases to be shocking. It's like there's nothing less shocking than a shock jock on morning radio, you know what I mean?
SCARBOROUGH: Yeah.
GEIST: All right, she did it again, she's getting attention, she's gonna sell a book.
SCARBOROUGH: I really don't think Ann had it right when she said that Christianity was about perfecting Jews. If you read the New Testament, actually, Christianity is about serving others.
GEIST: Yeah.
SCARBOROUGH: It's not about debating religion, it's about feeding the poor, it's about visiting the sick, helping those that need help, giving hope to the hopeless. It is not about going around telling people that they need to be "perfected." You look at yourself, and you say, "I'm the one that needs to be perfected."
GEIST: I think she missed that day at Sunday school, Joe. She must have been sick that day.
SCARBORUGH: Maybe so.
[...]
SCARBOROUGH: Yeah, and you saw the smackdown last night with Ann Coulter and Donny Deutsch. Kind of kicked her off the set, didn't he?
GEIST: Yeah, it was pretty ugly --
SCARBOROUGH: He stopped this interview very quickly when Ann Coulter said this.
[begin video clip]
COULTER: No, we think -- we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.
DEUTSCH: Wow, you didn't really say that, did you?
COULTER: Yeah -- no, that's what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws. We know we're all sinners --
DEUTSCH: In my old days, I would have argued -- when you say something absurd like that, there's no --
COULTER: What's absurd?
DEUTSCH: Jews are going to be perfected. I'm going to go off and try to perfect myself --
COULTER: Well, that's what the New Testament says.
DEUTSCH: Ann Coulter, author of If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans, and if Ann Coulter had any brains, she would not say Jews need to be perfected. I'm offended by that personally.
[end video clip]
SCARBOROUGH: Wow, what about that? Kinda tough --
GEIST: I don't know what to say. I mean, we said it last hour: This is what she does, she shocks, and it's hard to be shocked anymore.
SCARBOROUGH: Yeah. And of course, she talks about Christianity being about "perfecting Jews." I -- I never really read that in the New Testament.
GEIST: You had a different take on that --
BRZEZINSKI: Well, all these shocking --
SCARBOROUGH: Well, you know, I think Jesus had a different take than Ann Coulter, which he quite clearly says, time and again, that Christianity is about helping -- feeding the poor, visiting those who are sick in hospitals, visiting those in prisons, giving hope to the hopeless, doing all the things that have nothing to do with condemning other people like Ann Coulter just did.
BRZEZINSKI: Well, and in this case, it's really shocking statements in order to sell books.
GEIST: Of course, and we've said this before, Joe, Ann Coulter is a smart person and a good writer, and when she says things like this, it's hard to hear anything else she says, which is unfortunate.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, you know, it is unfortunate, because you know, when we had here a couple of weeks ago -- of course, we got nasty emails -- but I thought it was a good conversation, there was no hyperbole, and she is -- she really is a very, very intelligent person. But she is a marketing machine, and you know what? I think she gets, like, $3 million advances for every book, and the reason why is she puts out a book, and attacks 9-11 widows, she talks about the need for Jews to be "perfected," she makes statements like these, and it fuels her book sales.
GEIST: And it works every time.
SCARBOROUGH: And it works every time.
In other words, 'we like Ann!'... she may be a greedy, hate-monger... but, she sure is good at it!!
Strange statement to make! ie "Yes her total distortion of the role of a Christian is skewed BUT on the other hand, she seems bright." As my mom used to say, that sounds like an excuse not a reason. The woman is a pariah and every time she opens her mouth, it is well intentioned to hurt and destroy. She has NO standing to be telling others what Christians should do or how they should act. She totally missed the point with her hate filled language. I feel sorry for the poor dear. Just listen to every hate filled word out of her mouth and you will know she is of all people most miserable and the least able to hold up Christian standards.
Coulter 'perfected' remark is not any sort of anti-semitism nor is she making any judgements about the worth of any individuals or groups of individuals. She is merely repeating standard Christian doctrine on the matter of faith with regard to Jews [or anyone else].
This quote: "[the author of Hebrews] argued that Christianity represented the perfection of Judaism. Christianity was the religion foretold by the prophets. Those who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, moreover, were not the true people of God."
Hebrews 12:2 "We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith"
From a noted Christian educator, "Biblical faith is self-consciously different from Hinduism and Buddhism. Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam are confident that their faith is not religion, but revelation."
in the view of Christianity, Jews and Muslims are of imperfect Faith because they do not recognize and accept Christ as the promised Messiah. Those of 'perfected' faith both believe in God and accept Christ as His savior.
The terms 'perfect' and imperfect' are the actual theological terms applied to this topic. Coulter at least has the education to know this. The authors and publishers of Media Matters plainly do not. Smear is the name of the game at this site.
So pull your pants up. Your ignorance is showing.
Media Matters is no better. It is, I suppose, unreasonable to believe that these apparently Godless people who write and publish MM would ever take the time to study or understand any religion beyond leftism, but it is worth a try and might expose some people around here to some truth which is sadly lacking.
You are spouting dogma. This is churchianity; not scripture. Defending Coulter is a great clue as to where you are coming from, and it's not Christian, that's for sure.
Since you DEFINE ignorance we have no reason to take your assesment of us seriously. Hey LIBERALS BELEIVE that conservatives are just ignorant of the perfection of our beliefs. So we are basically a better higher form of political awareness. We are just a couple rungs ABOVE you on the political evolutionary ladder. THAT isnt insulting because it is just OUR belief. You know that YOURS is BS. That is all we are saying just like that was all ANN is saying. Then again you are probably to stupid to understand the simple analogy here so most likely I wasted my time. Try this I am better than you because my beliefs are better, that is basically what the Gangleskank told Jews. If you are too ignorant to understand that I really cant help you
NL207 writes:
Coulter 'perfected' remark is not any sort of anti-semitism nor is she making any judgements about the worth of any individuals or groups of individuals. She is merely repeating standard Christian doctrine on the matter of faith with regard to Jews [or anyone else].
This quote: "[the author of Hebrews] argued that Christianity represented the perfection of Judaism. Christianity was the religion foretold by the prophets. Those who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, moreover, were not the true people of God."
Hebrews 12:2 "We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith"
From a noted Christian educator, "Biblical faith is self-consciously different from Hinduism and Buddhism. Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam are confident that their faith is not religion, but revelation."
in the view of Christianity, Jews and Muslims are of imperfect Faith because they do not recognize and accept Christ as the promised Messiah. Those of 'perfected' faith both believe in God and accept Christ as His savior.
-----------------------------------------------
Whoever wrote the above only proved Coulter WRONG.
He/she claims Coulter was "repeating standard Christian doctrine on the matter of faith" but then proves that she was actually DISTORTING that doctrine, by posting quotes about "the perfection of JUDAISM," a religion -- not "Jews," human beings -- and that it "perfects our FAITH" -- again, perfecting the practice of a religion, not perfecting individuals who are deemed imperfect by Coulter because they don't adopt the label "Christian" for themselves.
Coulter is wrong to imply that people can be "perfected." No person on Earth has ever been perfect nor is that possible. Mother Teresa lived a life completely devoted to behaving as Christ instructed, and she was far from perfect. Perfecting one's faith is a lifelong process we know can never be fully achieved, but judging others as less perfect than ourselves is never part of that process.
Coulter's big mistake (shared by many Christians-in-name-only these days) is her smug belief that simply saying you "accept Christ as your personal savior" makes you a Christian and therefore perfect. Not only does that phrase highlight the purely selfish motivation (personal salvation) for taking the so-called "born again" pledge, there is no imperative in it to actually DO anything else Christ said we must do to gain salvation!
Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us that it doesn't matter what religion or ethnicity a person identifies himself as, his treatment of others is what will save him. The way to salvation is to do what Christ said to do, not to simply label yourself "Christian," a word Christ never used.
It is much easier to call yourself a Christian and do nothing Christ instructed, than to do what He said is necessary to "perfect your faith." A Jew who makes efforts to help the needy has perfected his faith far more than someone who "accepts Christ" only rhetorically, then goes on TV to spread hate and divisiveness.
Christ had plenty to say about the fate of such hypocrites, and the word "perfect" was not used. It is very telling that they seem not to have read that part of the Bible.
More Scarborugh phonyness, his network parent places Ann on , yet he plays the other side, just like he did with the war. I never take this man seriously.
JL: I think you are totally confused as to what news/talks shows are. They are not, "Hey, let's get all the people who agree with us in here and talk among ourselves." Invitees are supposed to have varied attitudes and opinions just as listeners do. Why are you so threatened by that?
All the trees felled to produce her book are as wasted as the lives of our fallen soldiers, marines and airmen in the Iraq boondoggle. Can we please move on?
Ann Coulter Perfects Insanity
Ann Coulter is a hate-filled sycophant that should spend all of her time working on her own perfection. She spews vitriolic venom constantly and is the worst ambassador that Christianity has ever had. And her idea of Heaven (said it would be just like the 2004 repub convention in New York) is odd to say the least. To assert that heaven would be full of bigoted neo-con robots with flip-flops and purple bandages is simply asinine. What a waste of skin!
Maybe all those white people up there in the firmament will get skin cancer and then go to Hell.
I'm curious why Coulter said her vision of heaven was New York during the Republican convention. Why NY? Does that mean she wants Dominican hot dog vendors, too? Maybe a little Harlem jazz, for variety?
Not sure how to take the "Dominican Hot Dog Vendor" comment...It's going to take a lot of drinking to rid myself of that visual! ;-)
"Dominican Hot Dog Vendor"
Something may have been lost in translation, but I believe that was one of the payees on Rush LImbaugh's recent credit card statement.
Can't a guy purchase a few weiners on his vacation time?
What I sensed in the whole tone of this panel is of people getting together after hearing a close personal friend just got cancer. Maybe Ann's career is starting to go "terminal." One can only hope!
I'll tell you, babe-0-licious Ann Coulter sure gets the left/libs talking...and when they start quoting Joe, well as HRC might just say, "cackle, cackle,cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle, cackle!"
Were you wearing your white hooded robe when you wrote that?
Naw, he just recently learned how to spell "cackle"!
Congrats, BBJ.
Maybe next he'll learn how to spell "Billy."
Billybobjones, my momma had a saying 'God don't like ugly'.
Annie sure has an ugly soul. She is the farthest thing from a 'christian'. She spews hate, stereotypes and just plain ignorance and she's all yours. Be proud.
"babe-0-licious Ann Coulter"?????
I guess you must have lost your eyesight along with your sanity. With all due respect to your taste in women, Ann Coulter is, in common parlance, a skank.
On a GOOD day.
By now, we shouldn't be surprised what this rightwing leg crosser says anymore. This braindead spinster should be banned from all broadcast networks.
ADL has denounced her and I hope the GOP denounces her as well-which I doubt they would. These men love her short skirts, boney arms and legs.
Of course, she can always run back to Fox News Scandal where she is loved by some, and hated by others. I can hear her now: "Sean, they are picking on me!"
I'm making a protest to Bossman Rupert and asking him not to bring this blond insult back on the network. Please join me, Media Matters.
I respect your position, FNC, but I'm on the other side. Let her talk. While other representatives of the GOP hide their true colors, she is the true face, and I don't want her locked up in the basement.
She can do nothing but good for this country by the damage she does to the right wing machine.Yeah, she might appeal to a small group of insecure imbeciles, who enjoy babbling BS and can divert their attraction to young boys to her comfortably (see Billybob's post above) but I refuse to believe that 1/2 of this country is stoopid enough that her pathetic act won't wake them up to a little reality.
Very, very well said.... Thank you.
At least you're not part of the censorship movement on the far left. That movement is growing in numbers all the time.
What censorship movement? If mainstream news organization decide not to invite her to bloviate on their airwaves, she will always have her books, her website, and Fox "News" to keep her from filing for unemployment insurance...
I wish Tom Lehrer was still writing songs. He would have found just the right words to sum up the Coulter "phenomenon..."
The censorship movement on the left that is growing in numbers every day- as supported by Rinohunters evidence, and the links to.... Oh , I.m sorry, according to the hallucination pulled directly from his tar hole.
Hey! BilldO's on Leno at this very minute, explaining how his compliments toward Black people were cherry-picked to make him look like a panty-waist racist sissy.
Please! It is the far right that always wants to stifle dissent and cherry-pick their audiences. How often do rightie talk-show hosts screen out callers who would pose anything resembling a tough question? On the other hand, many liberal leaning talk show hosts move those who disagree to the front of the line. Sam Seder, for instance, likes to have these ditto-head simpletons say their peace so they can be exposed for the shallow thinkers they are. Republicans, like cockroaches, can not stand to be in the light. Haven't you heard about the study that more or less demonstrated that those who are capable of critical thinking are a lot more apt to be liberal. While those who tend to lean right do not possess the ability to assimilate new information and are more apt to be followers who want a 'Daddy' figure to lead them! I agree with HBL, let the Coulters of the world speak and show their ignorant, hateful selves!
There IS no censorship movement on the left YOU are a liar.
Ummmm...and just who was it that brought up that MoveOn.org Petraeus/Betray Us ad in the Senate?
Oh right. All those "far left" Repugnant-cons.
Ann really has no idea what a true Christian is. If she did, she wouldn't constantly spew hate filled rhetoric just to sell some books. She'll have plenty of time to regret her actions when she's roasting in Hell.
or we could just get the democratic party to control all three branches of government. that'd pretty close to being hell for her anyway.
If people would just IGNORE this wretched woman and QUIT giving her attention - yeah, that means YOU, NBC! - then she will fade away as a nobody. I am really fed up with these morons in the media giving this woman air time and then whining about what she says. Her 'shtick' will ALWAYS be the same.
If MannThrax Coulter had any brains, she wouldn't open her mouth.
As long as she has access to the Media, this means the media honchos are promoting her as a spokesperson for the Right.
As a spokesperson, endorsed by today's media, her every word helps to define for us what the Rightwing is all about.
With Bush and Cheney defining Republicans from within government, and Coulter defining Republicans/Rightwingers from outside the government, the public gets a well-rounded picture.
I agree with the poster who said LET HER SPEAK, often and from every forum available. Every time she speaks, we can almost feel a wave of newly offended voters vowing to never support ANYTHING this woman supports.
And that's a GOOD thing.
(Plus, it's good that the likes of BILLIY can derive masturbatory fantasies from her appearances. A boy needs his fantasies.)
I think the posters so far have it wrong. Ann has not spewed hate. She has simply expressed a basic tenant of Christianity.
It seems however that she has committed another sin of the Liberal Religion. She committed an offense against moral relativism.
She simply said she feels her religion is the 'perfected' form of Judiasm. Which in theological terms simply means that it is a fuller, truer way to pay homage to God. Everyone who is a Christian believes that... otherwise they probably would be Jews.
She never said that she didn't respect Jews or Judiasm. She never said Deutch had to convert. She only said she feels Christianity supersedes Judiasm. That is not shocking nor is it hateful. It is simply an expression of the reality of Christianity.
I honor and respect Judiasm and those who practice that religion. There is a close kinship between Jews and Christians while at the same time major doctrinal differences. It is okay to point that out. I believe if anyone else had said it, there would be no story.
Excuse me, but Ann Coulter did more than just benignly present a tenet of Christianity...she offered the opinion that the country would be better if everyone was Christian. Her comments also suggested that Judaism was inherently deficient.
Personally, I wish everyone would keep their damn religion to themselves. I don't care if AC or anyone else believes their religion is superior to another one.
"she offered the opinion that the country would be better if everyone was Christian"
Of course it would be! The main goal of those of us who are Christians should be to spread the good news about Christ. We should convince people to become Christians. That's what EVERY religion does. We explain our beliefs to others and try to convince them that what we believe is right. It's not meant to be offensive to others. We are merely trying to save people from going to hell. We want everybody to become a Christian and have everlasting life in heaven.
Rino, take your right wing religious "good news" and stick it right up your a**. In my opinion you are a phony Christian.
To be sure, my comments are not intended to be disrespectful to religion. They are intended to be disrespectful to you for attempting to foist your religious beliefs, which I doubt you (as a right wing Republican) practice, on the rest of us.
Thanks for the kind words. But the reality is that any Christian who believes that non-Chrisitians can get to heaven is a phony Chrisitan. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father except through me." If you reject what Jesus said there, then you reject Christianity all together. And it's pretty ridiculous that you doubt my Christianity simply because I'm a Republican. You obviously have an irrational hatred for Republicans.
how do you know what "jesus said"? the bible has been rewritten, sections taken out, sections put in, translated, rewritten again. and on top of it, you're asking me to believe a book that says a man built a huge wooden ark, animals from all over the world came to that ark, it rained for weeks on end, and then they floated around for a long period until that water receded [to where if it covered the whole earth?], and then they landed on top of a mountain and eventually left the ark. i've got a better one. there were these three bears....
You don't have to believe any of the Bible if you don't want to. I'm just saying that you can't just pick and choose what to believe out of the Bible. There are some parts that have to be put into context, but the main parts of the Bible have to be interpreted literally. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. And also, there is a lot of geological evidence for a world wide flood. You picked a bad argument there.
What part of the Bible directed you to bother "liberals" on the internet? Why aren't you helping the sick or the poor at this very moment? Big Christian talker, eh, Rino?
Well, the Bible says to protect life and point out that homosexuality is immoral, so I'm certainly explaining the Republican/biblical stance on those issues.
"...so I'm certainly explaining the Republican/biblical stance on those issues."
Selectively...very selectively. There is only one political party that is pushing the notion that you have to belong to it to get to heaven...that would be the Republican Party. The truth, Rino, is that Christianity exists in a different realm than political parties. You are attemting to fuse a value system that promotes good over evil with a mechanism that is inherently corrupt. That you don't see something as clear as that speaks volumes about your bogus version of Christianity.
I never brought politics into this with my original post. You're the one who brought political views into this. I believe that Republicans and Democrats alike can get to heaven. God isn't a Republican or Democrat. I believe that Christians get to heaven, and it doesn't matter what political party they're in.
Would the country would be better if everyone was Christian"
RINO: "Of course it would be! "
Not mixing politics and religion, Rino? And which party has pushed the notion that it repreasents Christian values? Hmmmm...the Republican Party?
"Not mixing politics and religion, Rino"
What does that have to do with politics? Are you implying that if everybody was a Christian everybody would be a Republican as well? I certainly don't believe that. Christians of all political persuasions will be in heaven someday. It makes absolutely no difference what your political ideology is.
"It makes absolutely no difference what your political ideology is."
Then, insofar as eternal salvation is concerned, politics are irrlevant. So why are you so political? if anything politics could mislead you down a path away from heaven. Why are you, Rino, so concerned with right wing politics if they are irrelevant to your eternal salvation? Maybe because your politics and religion are one and the same, Rino. If so, Rino, you aren't a real Christian...you're a RepubloChristian. I'm sure Jesus would be proud...
Huh? So I'm not a Christian simply because I have an interest in politics? That makes no sense at all. People can have many aspects to their lives. I don't have to be non-political simply because I'm a Christian. I have an interest in politics and I enjoy debating people who have opposing points of view. But I've never said that those with different political view points won't make it to heaven. You're the only one who said that!
"So I'm not a Christian simply because I have an interest in politics?"
Not if your politics are at odds with true Christianity. If you cannot see that right wing Republican politics and real Christianity are mutually exclusive then you are blind. But, perhaps you have re-defined Christianity to compensate for the discrepancy. Honestly, Rino, you ought to do a little deeper soul searching...
I see. So you can't be a conservative and a Christian at the same time. Well thanks for proving that you're the one who's bigoted and extremely closed minded. I never brought politics into this. You did. You attacked a certain segment of Christianity simply because they have different political views than you. That's sick.
Rino, YOU are the one who has to reconcile his conflicting political beliefs with your religious beliefs and practices. But so long as you and Ann Coulter continue to "share" your religious beliefs with us then I'll share mine as well.
You're the one who needs to stop mixing religion and politics. I never brought politics into this discussion. You made the incredibly sick claim that simply because someone has conservative political views they can't get to heaven. You're doing the exact thing that you claim that I did. Except that I never bashed liberals on this thread. This is a religious discussion and I won't allow you to pull me off topic and inject politics into this discussion.
"You made the incredibly sick claim that simply because someone has conservative political views they can't get to heaven."
No, no, no...that's not what I said. Feel free to more clearly read my comments above. I said that right wing Republican politics and Christianity were mutually exclusive...they are not not morally compatible.
BTW, you say that non-Christians can't make it to heaven. How arrogant...!
Good night. Don't forget to say your prayers.
Exactly. You said that you can't be a right wing Republican and be a Christian at the same time. That's sick and demented. I could debate you on which political ideology is more compatable with Christianity, but there's no point in that. This isn't a political discussion. You brought politics into this; I didn't.
Irony,
I hope you don't mind my asking, but can you point out an example where you feel "right wing" Republican politics and Christianity are mutually exclusive?
AA -
How about 'love thy neighbor as thyself'?
Unless of course you are Jewish, Muslim, atheist, homosexual, black, latino, female, or liberal!
BTW Irony,
I do not believe only Christians can get to Heaven.
It seems to me that when Christ said you cannot get to Heaven except through Him, he was referring to Himself as the example. He also might have meant it meaning that only through His dying and rising from the dead can salvation be won.
It is a hotly debated topic. The interesting thing is that it doesn't matter what we individuals believe, but what actually happens.
I for one do not want to ignore Pascal's wager.
:-)
Pascal's wager is not logically sound. One reason for this is that Christianity is not the only choice there. Along with the option of believing in God, there is paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. The same wager can be equally applied to the deities of any of those faiths, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well.
Another reason is that the entire wager is based on the premise that God is "infinitely incomprehensible", but then it assumes the nature of God, that God will reward a certain behavior. If God is "infinitely incomprehensible", then we can't possibly know his nature.
The best reason, in my opinion, is that believing in God because of the odds of a beneficial result is not a true belief in God. It's a cynical maneuver to gain a desired result, not an expression of true faith. So even under the concept that God rewards those who have faith, anyone who is swayed by the wager is likely to not be eligible.
The man should have stuck to his triangle.
Great points, Brab. I've always liked the "just in case" bramd of religion. I take that into consideration when I see the surveys of people's religious views.I figure if people are asked if they believe in God, there are four probabilities within "yes" and "no", and God existing or not.
If God doesn't exist, the answer means nothing, it's neutral.
If there is a God, a "no" means you're going to Hell, a "yes" means you've got a shot at Heaven.
For those who have no idea what the truth is (that's all of us) there are two neutrals, one with potential negative result, and one possible positive result. The safe bet is to believe in God.
I had a co-worker years ago who was trying to save me with the "what if...?" scenario. I finally calmed him down with my own hypothetical.
What if God gave us these brains that work way better than even the smartest monkeys'. and then gave us an IQ test to see who appreciated that gift.
Suppose He made up a bunch of outlandish stories that contradicted everything our logic and senses told us was probable.Had someone write a book about Virgin births, corpses reanimating, all of the species of the Earth getting on one boat, people without modern medicine living 10 times the life span of today.
Then suppose God was reserving Heaven for only those who didn't buy it.The Supreme Being doesn't wanna hang out with chumps, that's a bad testimonial for that swell brain he designed.
What if? I've got as much backup for that as anybody else does for their story.
That's a great way of demonstrating how you can't base your beliefs on a hypothetical situation. The Lord works in mysterious ways, remember.
I think your scenario fits into the concept of the "Atheist's wager". Wikipedia says;"A god may exist who will reward disbelief or punish belief. In the absence of clear knowledge of what if anything will benefit the gambler's hereafter it is better to concentrate on improving conditions here" (italics mine).
If you do your best to live by common-sense morality, and improve the world around you, then a benevolent God will reward you anyway, whether you believed in Him or not. If it's not a benevolent God, then life is inherently unfair, essentially designed as a guessing game with eternal bliss or torment as the prizes.
If everyone in this country were a Christian of the type that bombed abortion clinics and shot abortion doctors or like Jim Jones this would NOT be a better country and if everyone in this country were a non Christian in the way Ghandi was it would be a much better country. As usual you see things in such simplistic terms that you show how little you know what you are talking about.
"If everyone in this country were a Christian of the type that bombed abortion clinics and shot abortion doctors or like Jim Jones this would NOT be a better country"
Solon, you're really stretching on that one. People like that obviously aren't truly Christians. I'm talking about people who have Christ in their lives and try to live according to his teachings. Since you claim to be a Christian yourself, I don't know why you wouldn't want as many people to be saved as possible.
I dont accept your interpretation of the bible. I dont think people have to be Christian or they will suffer in Hell. I dont buy it. I dont see why you do.
oh i forgot, creation science proves a worldwide flood. where did the water come from and where did it go?
Much of it came up from the ground and went back into the ground.
Huh?
Care to be more descriptive? I'm a hydrologist, and this is news to me!
so enough water to cover the highest point on earth, mt. everest, just sprung out of the ground all of a sudden? sure.
It came out of the ground and down from the sky. Did you never read the book of Genesis?
you're offering the bible as scientific proof of what you're saying. it does not work that way.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070907150931.htm
pathetic. i've already read that story. they think that there was a natural land barrier between the mediterranean and the black sea basin and that broke and the black sea was created as we know it now. that is not, repeat not, evidence of a flood covering the earth. they make that clear in the link.
Hmmm. You must have missed the title:
"Marine Team Finds Surprising Evidence Supporting A Great Biblical Flood"Sorry. That didn't work. I'll try it again:
"Marine Team Finds Surprising Evidence Supporting a Great Biblical Flood."
hmmm. you must have missed this in the article. the "great flood" covered an area "four times the size of israel". last time i checked, that is not the whole earth.
... there is a lot of geological evidence for a world wide flood. You picked a bad argument there. - RH
If you believe that you are either scientifically ignorant or in denial of genuine science. There is no evidence that the entire world has been covered with water in the last half billion+ years. In fact, had that occurred (especially within the last several tens of thousands of years) there are several very specific features that would be seen which are conspicuously absent.
I believe you've allowed yourself to be misled to believe a falsehood because you'd like to believe it.
There you go again arrogantly telling us what we HAVE to do again. You DO know that YOU arent GOD right? Sacred literature is meant to be taken only literally. IF that were true why would the bible tell us that God has written his precepts in our HEARTS, there would be no need. YOU can believe what you want but when you tell us that unless we believe like YOU we arent real Christians you show yourself to be arrogant and full of yourself. THAT isnt your call. You should stop trying to be God, he is a lot smarter than you, so are most of the posters on this site.
I didn't call you anything. I just said that belief in Christ's death on the cross is the way to salvation, which is what the Bible teaches. If you deny that you are flat out rejecting the Bible. And yes, I know I'm not God. But I can read, and God's word EXPLICITLY says that JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY! You simply can't get around that.
Bunk. That is YOUR interpretation nothing more. As I pointed out when Jesus was asked directly how to attain salvation his answer was simple. Love God, be fair and honest in all your dealings basically. Nothing more. What you THINK, it wasnt in there, so you are welcome to believe what you want but there are lots of ways to interpret Jesus words about being the way.
And YOU can't get around the fact that Revelations promises a place in your God's Kingdom for the Jews, which is why your particular sect of Christianity came up with the whole anti-Semitic notion of "perfected Jews" and setting out to "perfect" them.
Yours is the Torquemada sect.
You basically said we werent REAL Christians if we believed differently than you do about this. That isnt your call YOU are not God.
My religious beliefs tell me that it is impossible to be a true Christian and a right wing Republican...the two are mutually exclusive.
Further, if you are a true Christian why are you wasting your time hanging out on the internet, bothering people on a left-leaning website, instead of praying or working with the sick and the poor. Is Christianity just a paet-time thing for you? Just on weekends, maybe? Or are you just a Christian "talker"?
My religious beliefs are no less valid than yours, so if you want to spout yours then I'll spout mine. My religious beliefs tell me that right wing Republicans who pretend to be true Christians, particularly those who lurk on the internet casting aspersions on those with whom they disagree, are frauds...they have missed the boat entirely on what it means to be a Christian. I don't pretend to be a true Christian but I know a phony when I see one.
"...you doubt my Christianity simply because I'm a Republican."
My religious beleiefs are equally as valid as yours, Rino. You want to spout yours, then I'll spout mine. My religious beliefs tell me that it is impossible to be a right wing Republican and a Christian...the two are are mutually exclusive.
I believe that anyone who lives a life that imparts the same love, kindness, and caring as Christ's will go to heaven and all those who have lived a life contrary to his teachings and mandates (they can be found in red print in the bible) to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and general see to the needs of he downtrodden regardless of what they say or what they call themselves are going to be in big trouble on the big J day.
I see. So people can get to heaven by simply being good. So where exactly do you draw the line at? How good do you have to be? Do you think that we can ever be as God as Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life?
"...a perfect life?"
With such a large gap in the Biblical telling of Jesus' life how do you knw Jesus lived a perfect life? What about those ancient texts which say that as a child the parents of Jesus' playmates went to Mary and Joseph to ask for help because Jesus had turned their children into goats? Have you ever researched any of the ancient manuscripts about Jesus that were not incorporated into the Bible?
Look, if you want to doubt the validity of Christianity that's your right. You doubt that Jesus is the son of God who lived a perfect life? Fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But those of us who actually are Christians should heed what the Bible says about spreading the good word. The Bible says that we should try to tell as many people about Christ as possible. I don't understand why that makes you so angry. We're just following our religion.
"We're just following our religion."
Actually, you and Ann Coulter are interjecting your religious beliefs into the realm of politics. Great...then I will do the same. And my religious beliefs tell me that you and Ann Coulter are both frauds pretending to be true Christians. Simply spouting scripture does not a good Christian make.
Ann Coulter may have done that before, but where did she include politics in this discussion? If you read the transcript, she was simply talking about religion. Your personal attacks are still baseless and defamatory.
What???? Ann Coulter believes that the ideal is for this country to look like the Republican Convention and she believes that heaven is going to look like that.
COULTER: "It would look like New York City during the Republican National Convention. In fact, that's what I think heaven is going to look like."
Sorry. You have a point there. But I never said comments similar to that or agreed with her comments. We're not the same person. I strongly disagree with her on that. And simply the fact that she's outrageous and hateful at times doesn't mean that all conservative Christians are like that. She doesn't speak for us. That's not a good reason to suggest that all conservatives can't be true Christians.
but you have said you have no problem with the ten commandments being posted in government buildings. so you are proposing mixing politics and/or government with religion.
here it is. heaven at the republican national convention.
http://nymag.com/rnc/
We're just following our religion.
Actually, you're interpreting your religion. You're saying, without one single shred of evidence from scripture, that Coultergheist is correct, that Christians are "perfected Jews." That's not a belief shared by all who call themselves Christian, nor (as I've said) is it based on scripture. In fact, in Revelations, it is specifically mentioned that the Jews have a standing reservation for heaven, which is where this whole anti-semitic "perfected Jews" Left Behind thing comes from: Far-right Christian sects can't reconcile believing their way being the only way to heaven and this promise of a place in the Kingdom to the Jews in the Bible.
And, Rino, if you think I'm calling you out as an anti-Semite, you're reading comprehension is better than I would have given you credit for.
So, your mission in life is to foist your viewas of Christianity and religion on the rest of us?
Rhino: I assume you are not talking about Ann Coulter when you refer to Christians spreading the good word about Jesus. She, and her methods, are in direct contraction to the way Jesus and his Apostles taught. Their's was a message of love and peace and forgiveness and a way home - together. Nothing in the philosophy applies to Ann's Coulter's messages or methods.
Irony,
Can you provide a link to the ancient documents that support you claim of Jesus turning kids into goats? :-)
Or are you trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
try this. scroll halfway down.
my bad. the link:
http://www.williamgaddis.org/recognitions/I1anno2.shtml
"...Jesus turning kids into goats? "
Actually, AA, the history of kids turning into goats is very well documented. Irony's comment was about Jesus turning children into goats.
Yes because THAT is what Jesus SAID. That to gain salvation you need to Love God and be fair and honest in all your dealings. In other words live a good life. Personally I am not worried what happens to me after I die. I never have been.
"That to gain salvation you need to Love God and be fair and honest in all your dealings"
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except through me." He then died on the cross to take away the punishment for our sins. All we have to do is believe in his sacrificial death on the cross and we will be saved. Being good has nothing to do with it. The Bible says that even the good things we do are like filthy rags in God's eyes. We can't bridge the gap between us and God by ourselves; only Jesus can.
Again you avoid the SIMPLE answer to the direct and SIMPLE question. There are many ways to interpret the way truth and light. YOURS is not the only nor definitive way. Again your arrogance is astonishing
so you can be a good person all your life, working with the poor, giving away most of your income to charity, but because you don't believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, you will not be "saved" but instead burn for eternity.
Sorry. Meant "good" as Jesus.
"Phony soldiers", "Phony Christians"... you guys sure have a yen to declare those who don't believe like you do, "phony".
I guess if you've got nothing else to argue with, what have you got to lose by going ad hominem?
I say anyone arrogant enough to say either you accept MY interpretations or you are not a REAL Christian like pious old Rhinomoron, then you are an arrogant, ignorant weasel. Yes Jesus said that. So did Prajapati a millenium before that. It needent mean what you THINK it does. Prajapati's job was to escort the dead into the presence of God. When Jesus was ASKED DIRECTLY by the rich man HOW to gain salvation he basically said Love God and be fair and honest in all your dealings. NOTHING about following YOUR arrogant prescriptions. I think Jesus is a better judge here than say YOU.
Belief in Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross for our sins is THE BASIC BELIEF of Christianity. If non-Christians can get to heaven then Jesus died for nothing. It's simply a slap in the face to Jesus and his suffering to say that non-Christians can get to heaven.
I know it is a matter of faith or perhaps more accuratly delusion that if you keep repeating something it magically becomes true. It doesnt work that way. It is no truer now than the first time you posted it. That is YOUR belief and YOUR interpretation nothing more. It certainly isnt what Jesus said DIRECTLY
These beliefs are based on dogma, interpretation of scripture. That's why Jesus told the pharisees that they search the scriptures, for in them they claim to have eternal life, but that life eludes them.
When the scriptures are written in the heart and mind, one lives an enlightened life and has no need to divide people by false judgements. The whole point of scripture is to bring Light to the soul, so each one of us can be a Light to the world. (This Light is real, by the way.)
Newsflash "It's not meant to be offensive to others" It is offensive, please quit it. Your beliefs are no more valid than the beliefs of my friends the Navaho's (whose beliefs, incidently may have originated over 12,000 years ago). Or the recently revealed wisdon of the Great Spaghetti Monster religion. Your book of handed down myths, legends and parables are no better than anyone elses. There are many, many people in the world who view the symbol of the cross as it was originally intended by the Romans, the most tortuous, terrifying means of oppression known to mankind. The cross has led countless invasions of indigenous peoples the world over who were subsequently enslaved or simply slaughtered. The genocide of the native peoples of north americca is recent history to cultures that measure their history in milleniums, not decades. Get over yourself and your transparent sanctimonious belief that converting will feather your bed in the after life. My big word for the month, ethnocentric, look it up and see yourself in the meaning. Try some humility. Sorry to go off on one poster, but this statement she made just set me off.
So you hate Christianity. I get it. My point is that each religion is sincere in their beliefs and believe that their religion is the way to get to heaven. There's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have strong beliefs. If you went up to a Muslim and told him that his belief is worthless because non-Muslims can go to heaven as well, he would just take that as an insult. People of other faiths have more respect for your faith if you take your faith seriously and literally.
And predictably " I hate Christianity" Yep, that's why I married one and joined the local Methodist Church, go pretty regular and bite my tongue doozens of times a day. Gosh, imagine the hate that drove me to give up a week of unpaid vacation and chaperone the youth group on a mission to lovely OK in August. Or sitting out in the spitting snow last Sat for four hours helping out with the kids triathalon, sponsored by a group of local churches. You've got me pegged big hunter, hate hate hate that's me.
If that's the case then why do you have a problem with what I said? Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he was the only way to get to heaven?
Not that he lied but that YOUR interpretation of what he meant is not the only valid option. My guess is that is what someone TOLD you he meant since you get your political beliefs from Rush I bet you get your religious beliefs the same way. You are TOLD what to believe.
Did you miss the part about how he died on the cross? What do you think he did that for? Do you think that he just died for nothing? Or do you think that he died to take away the sins of the world?
Are those the ONLY two options just because you keep SAYING they are? You can keep telling me what you BELIEVE, you are welcome TO your beliefs. They are not the beliefs of all Christians and you are in NO POSITION to say that the only REAL Christians are the ones that believe the way you do like you have already said once with incredible arrogance. YOU are not GOD it isnt your call. I believe differently and many Christians I know believe differently. Jesus said DIRECTLY what it took to gain salvation and there was no such obligation mentioned. Interpret anyway you want or more likely the way someone TOLD you to. It matters not to me. When you become so astonishingly arrogant you take on the mantle of GOD to tell us we arent REAL Christians unless we believe the way YOU you unmask yourself as an arrogant charlatan
So what exactly do you believe then? I just want to know.
This is not the proper forum to go into detail which would run long. Suffice to say I dont think anyone who lived a good life and cared deeply for either their fellow man or a Godly path is going to fare badly in whatever we face in the next world just because they didnt follow any specific ritual you fundamentalists THINK is essential or because they believed this way or that way. It is the overall path and quality of a persons heart that matters not who they studied with or which path they decided to follow
Don't let the likes of a RinoHunter get to you. He wants you to go off on him. Remember real Christians know Jesus wouldn't talk like a RinoHunter, and try to tease an angry response from you. Being a good Christian and a good American go together, despite the loud noises you hear to our right. And it's empty noise because they don't have the Spirit, only the words.
Rinohunter is not a real Christian.
Thanks for pretending like you know me. So are you going to be on the new Air America atheist show any time soon?
Wasn't trying to imply I knew you any more than from your words here. That's enough.
I see. So anyone who actually believes in the Bible is a "fake Christian." Anybody who believes that Christianity is the only way to heaven is a "fake Christian." I understand now.
Reread my comment. The Spirit and the spirit of Jesus' teachings is not in the words you chose to use here.
I read your comment. I wasn't trying to get an angry response from anyone. I simply quoted scripture which made it clear that Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven. I had no idea that you would get so offended by me simply citing a Bible verse.
"I had no idea that you would get so offended by me simply citing a Bible verse."-RinoHunter
You can't stop yourself! You deliberately argue falsely. You know that's not my point!
Then what's your point? What are you so angry about? All I ever said was that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. I never brought politics into this. This isn't a political discussion. I simply said that all Christians regardless of political philosophy will one day be in heaven.
I'm amused, not angry. The point is that you know the point! Again, the spirit of ones words is as much the message as the words.
No. I don't know your point. I never attacked liberals. I simply said that Jesus is the way to salvation, which is the basic belief in Christianity.
You attack liberals all the time, stop lying
I'm talking about this particular thread. I said nothing about liberals. I'm not the one who brought politics into this. I thought that you might actually agree with me on this thread since you claim to be a Christian, and because some of your liberal friends made the sick claim that people on the right can't be Christians. I guess I was wrong.
I dont believe people on the right cant be Christians. I think they can be wrong and still good people. Then again I dont know exactly what he means when he is talking about Rightwingers. I dont need YOUR approval to be a Christian YOU are not GOD nor were you appointed the task BY God of determining what makes someone a REAL Christian and your ARROGANCE in pretending you were is incredible. That was an attack on ME. I will let you fight your own battles for the rightwing whatever that amorphous group may be.
And I also didn't bring up politics in my original post. You guys brought up that subject. I simply quoted what the Bible says about getting to heaven. If you want to choose not to believe in the Bible then fine. But I was just pointing out what the biblical belief is on the subject of everlasting life.
"But I was just pointing out what the biblical belief is on the subject of everlasting life."---RinoHunter
You weren't just pointing something out, you were being deliberately provocative to try to display that people here on MMFA are godless heathens.
I was just responding to someone who said that it's wrong to want to convert everybody to Christianity. I was responding to that poster. Nobody else. So you can quit lying about what I've said. I've said over and over again that it doesn't matter what your political ideology is when it comes to your faith. Nobody is going to be kept out of heaven because of their political ideology.
Well, I want to go off on AC, but she refuses to respond to my emails. Gutless. Punk.
Yeah well I am a lot better than YOU but that isnt meant to be offensive. It is just incredibly patronizing and arrogant beyond belief.
I'm just quoting the Bible. I'm just the messenger. You simply reject biblical truth and basically create your own religion.
You are just quoting the bible THEN ADDING YOUR INTERPRETATION, and not the only one possible.
Also I am just REJECTING YOUR INTERPRETATION. YOU are not GOD. It isnt up to YOU to decide for the entire world what IS and what ISNT Christianity This must come as a huge shock to you but YOU ARE NOT GOD
Of course you are wrong (that's a shocker). That is not what 'every' religion does. Christianity is the most aggressive when it comes to proselytizing. Why can't Christians in particular, and religious zealots in general just accept that 'they' are 'saved' and leave the rest of the world alone! It really comes down to the fact that you (and many others like you) do not feel redeemed unless you can convince others of your 'vision'! Not to mention the obvious point that misery loves company and you and yours do not want to be alone in your foolish notions!
I think you're missing something here. Ann Coulter does not practice Christianity (or any other kind of spirituality) She'd make a good pharisee, however. (The ones who opposed Jesus)
We've got the scribes and the pharisees in the White House; and Moses and Jesus are left out.
"It seems however that she has committed another sin of the Liberal Religion. She committed an offense against moral relativism.
She simply said she feels her religion is ... a fuller, truer way to pay homage to God."
Oh, cut it out, Barney! You're too much fun.
BTW, I went by yesterdays Gibson thread, the one where you called me a troll. You linked to a Thinkprogress page that was supposed to slam me, but I didn't see anything related to the topic there. I may have missed it, there were several items, but I'm still interested.If you go back there, specify what you were linking to.
Gomer,
You are troll like when you simply post your sophomoric insults that have nothing to do with the conversation.
I'm sorry the link did not match up with the one I cut the quotes from. Those quotes came from that website contrary to your very snarky insinuation. You were simply wrong again.
I'm wrong? Deputy Fife, you may be overdue for some R&R.Let's review;
You posted an edited quote(Reid's "the war is lost", omitting the introductory "If we ...)
When another poster and I had a laugh at your ellipse or ellipsis or whatever those three dots are called, you called me a troll, and linked to a Thinkprogress page that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject.I believe you also suggested I put mustard on something.You were completely lying or confused.(your link has since been fixed by Openmind)
In this thread, you defend Annie-Christ's remarks by saying she only defied "moral relativism".
I realize "moral relativism" is one of those nebulous right-wing catch phrases that probably means nothing (correct me if I'm wrong), but as I understand it, it refers to a lack of commitment to absolute right and wrong on every issue.
Most humans would call that "thinking" or understanding the varying degrees of morality.I'll respect your right to apply absolutes on moral ethical matters.
But, you go on, in the same post in which you drag out the moral relativism BS, to explain AC's remarks as a slight differentiation between two religious faiths. Do you not see how funny that is?
I like you, Barney, but you've got to quit this. If you post BS, people will call you on it, and crying and calling them trolls, and dismissing their comments as "putdowns" and "sophomoric" only makes you look like a bigger fool.
If I've misinterpreted anything you've posted, I'm all ears.Please don't try another attempt to ignore your weaknesses by calling me a troll or calling my posts childish putdowns.
If you don't understand something, it's not always the other person's fault. I've given you the benefit of the doubt in too many cases to count. Grow up, and try to support your posts with some substance. It's harder than name-calling, but a good character builder.
No she didnt she spouted HER version of Christianity. It is NOT a central tenet of Christianity that we are better than Jews. She comitted the sin of putting herself above others. She thinks she is better than Jews and SAID SO. That might fit YOUR version of Christianity but not mine
Why does it sell books?
Because antisemitism is a alive and well in the Ecumenical Christian Church.
Ann Coulter knows this, and uses it to promote her book. I don't know why anyone is shocked to find out that there are Christians in this world that think their religion is right, and want to it to win the ultimate war.
Sing it with me brothers" "Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to..."
Dan D.
Scarborough is incorrect. What Jesus really did was run around shouting, "I'm the greatest f*cker here! And you snivelling %@ts would die without me! AHAHAHAHAH!" ** Coulter's got it right.
** all credit due to the Perfect Human known as Lewis Black.
100,000 pounds of garbage is produced by each person in a lifetime. Looks like Coulter meets her lifetime quota with each book she spews out.
"At some point, if you shock and shock and shock, it ceases to be shocking"---Willie Geist
The important point in time is now. What is the titular head of the GOP going to do? or the head of RNC, implicitly via Bush? The ball is in their court. Do they repudiate her or not?
Regarding Ann Coulter, the silence from the Republicon Party is deafening...
There is no Republicon Party, so I don't think that you'll hear anything from them.
Did you finally run them all off? Now you're a party of one. Rinny your the last member!
No Republicon Party? Oh...perhaps I should have said The Party of Morally Deficient Miscreant Who Hide Behind Religion.
The package they're selling to the gullible masses is that to get to heaven you have to be a Christian Republican. Shameless...
No. You just have to be a Christian. I'm not a closed minded hateful person like you who believes that people with opposing political views can't get to heaven.
Sorry to butt in, but again, you know he didn't say that!
Guess again:
"My religious beliefs tell me that it is impossible to be a true Christian and a right wing Republican...the two are mutually exclusive"
Irony
RinoHunter says to Irony 101,
"I'm not a closed minded hateful person like you who believes that people with opposing political views can't get to heaven." And backs that up with,
"My religious beliefs tell me that it is impossible to be a true Christian and a right wing Republican...the two are mutually exclusive"---Irony 101
He is not saying that because one is a Christian you can't get to heavan. He denies you right wingers are in fact Christian.
That's how I read it.
That's exactly what I said! Here it is again:
"I'm not a closed minded hateful person like you who believes that people with opposing political views can't get to heaven"
Irony claimed that conservatives cannot be Christians. That's a sick comment that is just as bad as the stuff that Ann Coulter says. You should distance yourself from that comment.
He didn't use the word "conservative". "Right wing Republicans" he said. They are not conservative.
But lots of people are conservative who are Democrats---I've met many. And Right wing Republicans are not conservative! The're radical.
Fine. Hard core conservatives then. You're simply parsing words now. The point is that political views have no bearing on whether you're a Christian and will make it to heaven. I find it astounding that you would claim that a certain segment of our population isn't Christian simply because they have political views that are the exact opposite as yours. Again, you're basically the Ann Coulter of the left.
"According to you if someone has conservative views on issues they can't be a true Christian"---RinoHunter
You're really a liberal right, tying to make the other side look bad?
It's you who plays with peoples words!
When Limbaugh quits you might want to look into that. You could do the word substitution thing in your sleep.
That's exactly what he said. Amazingly you're defending his sick and disgusting comments and actually agreeing with them. You're the worst of the worst on the extreme far left.
"The point is that political views have no bearing on whether you're a Christian and will make it to heaven."
What about abortion? Supporting a woman's right to choose is considered a political point of view (liberal), irrespective of whether one would personally have an abortion. So even "pro-choice" liberal Christian Democrats can get to heaven? Some on the right would argue that " being "pro-choice" is mutually exclusive with being a Christian.
"Some on the right would argue that " being "pro-choice" is mutually exclusive with being a Christian"
I never argued that. You seem to like lumping me in with other people. Like I said, being a Christian means that you accept Christ in your heart and try to follow him. Political ideology doesn't matter. You're the one bringing politics into this and making everything political.
Rino, all this time we've heard how abortion is "murder". You can't very well claim that there's a moral issue with abortion because it's destroying an innocent life, but that supporting that practice doesn't put you in poor favor with God. To believe otherwise suggests that either "thou shalt not kill" is just a joke, or all the talk about "murder" is wildly exaggerated at best.
But I realize that people who support abortion rights don't necessarily want there to be more abortions. Some people simply believe that the government is incapable of regulating it. I can respect that view, even though I disagree with it.
We don't want there to be more abortions, but that doesn't have anything to do with it. If it's murder, then that is a sin. Destroying innocent life is an absolute moral wrong, is it not?
It doesn't matter what the reason is. If it's morally wrong, it doesn't matter if you are for abortion rights because you just think a woman has a right to murder her child or because you don't think the government can regulate it, or whatever other reason. It's still wrong, if you think anyone should be allowed to do it at all. Are we supposed to believe that someone can support the murder of innocent humans and God overlooks that because of their lack of faith in the government, or because they don't encourage people to do it?
If you believe that abortion is murder, then you have to conclude that political view prevents one from getting into heaven. I just don't see how you get around that.
And here's his latest brilliant attack on all Christians who have conservative political views:
"Not if your politics are at odds with true Christianity. If you cannot see that right wing Republican politics and real Christianity are mutually exclusive then you are blind. But, perhaps you have re-defined Christianity to compensate for the discrepancy"
So do you agree with him on that? Or are you actually going to challenge him for once?
I agree with him on that. They/you are not real Christians. Again, you have the Word but not the spirit of the Word.
Thanks for proving that you're as bigoted and hateful as he is. According to you if someone has conservative views on issues they can't be a true Christian. Nice. The stuff that you guys are saying is just as hateful or even more so than the stuff that Ann Coulter is saying. It's just from the opposite side.
Again, you're not arguing in good faith. You again substitute "conservative" with "Right Wing Republican".
Try to understand the difference: A conservative is not nesesarily for the current GOP. A real conservative would be against them. But by definition a Right Wing Republican is for the current goings-on of this crop of GOP'ers.
You're just parsing words again. It's just your opinion as well. I believe that today's Republican Party is still conservative. I don't agree with them on everything, but they certainly don't need to move to the left. But even someone who has far right views shouldn't be branded as someone who can't be a Christian. I don't brand far left people as being non-Christian, even though I strongly disagree with their political views.
Explain why someone who believes that Right-Wing Repuiblicans are not real Christians proves that they're "bigoted and hateful".
I, for one, think there's a lot of truth in that assessment. The Jesus Christ I grew up learning about is unrecognizable as the figure that Focus on the Family and Right-wing Republicans profess to worship. Completely different. Right-wing Republicans don't follow Jesus, they follow Paul. Paul was the one who criticized homosexuality, not Jesus. Paul was the over-the-top mouthpiece. Jesus was humble and loving. Today Paul would have his own show on Faux.
But feel free to lump ME in with the "bigoted and hateful" crowd, simply because I see different values in the scriptures than you do.
Look. I could make this political if I wanted to. I could come up with a laundry list of issues in which liberals hold positions that are hostile to what's in the Bible. On everything from abortion to homosexuality to euthanasia. I didn't want to make this political, but you're leaving me no choice.
But again, political ideology has no bearing on whether or not you get to heaven. I wish there was at least one level headed person here who could agree with that. Where are you Fried?
The right wingers who practice churchianity routinely ignore the direct sayings of Jesus to help the poor; to consider everyone "his neighbor"; to love and have compassion. They prefer Leviticus to the Sermon on the Mount.
Jesus made no mention of abortion and homosexuality, etc.; yet these are the signature issues of the republicons who like to use religion like a club.
The right wingers resemble the scribes who continually tried to condemn Jesus on the basis of scripture. Jesus' answer to them was that they were without understanding.
"The right wingers who practice churchianity routinely ignore the direct sayings of Jesus to help the poor"
Guess again. The statistics show the conservatives give far more money to charities than do liberals. The fact that conservatives oppose higher taxes doesn't mean that they don't want to help the poor.
Here's a fair representation of the study you seem to be basing your information on:
http://immorallogic.blogspot.com/2007/01/liberal-vs-conservative-giving.html
Let me add, that when it comes to seeing our government, which is in a democracy "we the people" is in a position to help our neighbor, suddenly the New Testament principles go out the window. Private charities have never been able to compensate for the lack of decent policy.
Studies that show NOTHING. First they handpicked charities and surveyed THEM. A second one compared how much money was given to a salvation army donation kiosk in Wyoming and in San Fransisco AFTER the Salvation Army ran a very public campaign to discriminate against gay people. So NO those studies dont really PROVE any such thing.
The interests of hard-core conservatism are at odds with the teachings of Jesus. Do we want businesses to be regulated, or not? If not, then we have no minimum-wage laws, and corporations can pay slave wages. That's not helping the poor. Likewise for health insurance, that is a key concern for poor people. Jesus hung out with lepers and healed the sick but would be against universal health care?
You can't have the attitude that corporations should regulate themselves, that they should do whatever they can to maximize profits and be following the path of Jesus.
"The interests of hard-core conservatism are at odds with the teachings of Jesus"
That's simply false. Jesus said nothing about the role the government should play in helping the poor. As I mentioned in the above post, conservatives give far more money to charities than do liberals. Simply because conservatives don't want a massive and inneficient federal government doesn't mean that they don't want to help the poor. Most conservatives I know routinely do volunteer work to help those less fortunate and follow Jesus' teaching of helping out the least fortunate.
The people who are affected by corporate policies are not necessarily the same people who benefit from charity. It's not exactly making up for the problem.
It's really quite simple:There's an inherent conflict of interest between corporate profits and spending money on employees. The far-right anti-regulation, anti-union, anti-minimum wage view encourages the creation of more poor and sick people for the sake of corporate profits and stock prices.
Someone giving money to the local homeless shelter or other charities doesn't necessarily help the woman who has to work two jobs because one of them cut the health benefits that her sick child needed.
In fact, you inadvertently point out the entire problem by talking about charity. The anti-regulation and trickle-down philosophies rely on the good will of people in order to work. We can eliminate welfare because charity will make up for it...except when it falls far short. Rich people will spend extra money given to them, stimulating the economy...except when they just store it. We don't need a minimum wage, because corporations will pay a living wage without any such laws...except when they won't. We should have tort reform because corporations will keep the best interests and well-being of their employees in mind...except when they fire good people like my father and my wife because they were spending too much money on their health care, and however many other examples are out there.
Surely a real Christian recognizes that people aren't automatically so charitable, and so their focus should be on preventing such abuses of employees to occur, even if it has to happen through government action. To be more concerned about profits and stock prices certainly doesn't mesh with the teachings of Jesus.
Really, maybe the temple was the best place for those merchants to set up their businesses, and yet Jesus wasn't too happy about that. Why did he want to punish success in such a way? Why would he not want them to be able to do anything they wanted to do in order to make their profits?
If you think carefully, the answer may come to you.
Excellent post, thanks.
When are the fundamentalists going to realize they are being used by right-wing politicians?
Thank you kindly!
What's remarkable to me is that one of the primary purposes of religion itself is to help us overcome our more primal instincts. Let's take lust, for instance. Religious morality dictates that acting on such impulses before marriage is clearly wrong. To combat teenage sex, we should teach them simply to be abstinent. Whether effective or not (and it's not), the motivation is clearly to reduce the effects of lust, since it's obvious it's a human element that can't be completely eliminated.
But when it comes to greed, that seems to be a different story. There's no qualms about using government resources to enforce their viewpoint on sex, but when it comes to money then suddenly the concept of pure capitalism trumps any such moral concerns. It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter Heaven. Huh? Where did that come from?
And to add to that, it's easy to see that if corporate bigwigs are allowed to let their greed run unabated, then there will be less money for many people to give to charity even when they want to.
What difference is there, that would cause fundamentalists to pursue one moral issue, but not another? Perhaps it's because Republicans don't want to bite the hand that feeds them?
We'll stop saying Republicons as soon as the president stops calling us the Democrat Party.
What the funk?
For the record, I consider myself Christian, however...
Religion causes so much noise. Believe or not, just get on with it and stop hassling others. By the way, Mrs Coulter is not the first to come up with the notion that Jews are imperfect. I seem to recall one man in particular who had quite a following up util the forties, but damn it I can't remember his name right now. Short guy with a square mustache, wore a lot of brown shirts and liked to shout a lot...
In all seriousness, her comment is etremely anti-semetic(don't think I spelled that right... ah well), and just a few short steps for blaming the Jews for losing the Vietnam war. Speaking of Vietnam, the Situation in Iraq is sarting to awfully familiar. Newsflash: You can't beat Guerilla warfare with an occuption force.
Back to one comment in particular:
"At least you're not part of the censorship movement on the far left. That movement is growing in numbers all the time."
Oh you mean how your country lies to you about casualties in Iraq? Oh wait that's censored because some the soldiers dying aren't soldiers at all but contractors... conractor thugs from Blackwater maybe. Your country lies to you all the time. It's called propaganda.
Bit of a tangent there,but back that hag, Coulter, if she has an decency she'll never show her demonic face on television again.
My invisible white haired guy in the sky is tougher than ann coulters invisible white haired guy in the sky! America would be a better place if all religions were put on the shelf.
As I understand it, the jews believe Jesus was sent to convert Gentiles to Judaism, not to create a new religion. This is especially interesting when christians say, "jesus was not a jew, he was a christian." Even today christians just cannot get it right. Most of all we should remember that Jesus was a long-haired, radical, socialist jew. And I am a pagan and heathen on the side of Jesus.
Often conservative Christians say that religious pluralism is "moral relativism." And yet it is clear that the founding fathers set up this country as a pluralistic, not a Christian, nation. This is a nation that has freedom of and freedom from religion.
I think when Jesus said that through him is the way to God, I think he actually meant that, by following his teachings, you will get to Heaven. He didn't mean him personally. Phonies like Ann invoke Jesus's name yet, as Joe pointed out, they don't actually follow his teachings and examples. (I wonder if anyone told Ann that Jesus was a liberal!)
I think it's arrogant to believe that people of other faiths are going to hell just because their path to the Ultimate Truth is different than yours.
jesus was a jew hello?
This time MMFA is concentrating on the right personality on MSNBC. Morning Joke is just that. A Joke. No one watches
Coulter forgot to include herself in the need for perfecting, which is typical of all who put their foot in their mouth, speaking from the poorest educated, ideologically fixed, and least in-demand news media content.
Mediamatters could for example be covering the recent rash of mass shootings, monitoring the vacuum of information surrounding the repeat, and obviously psychologically conditioned automism to do such horrible things. And they could be reading the underlining to all the artificially hyped rhetoric, seasonally installed, on the non-issue of torture--like it was selling 'sliced bread'.
For all we know, if Whubbuh-Munky's unilateral branch can obfuscate torture to a stacked, incompetent FISA court, what his henchman might really be trying to greenlight is the remote psychotronic torturing of the latest spate of targeted American timebombs. The technological, quantum communications technology tied in with the secrete completion of the Human Genome Project is widely known and researched in many volumes of the academic university library--simply a reality and not a science fiction fantasy.
Nowhere is there careful analysis of what could move children to do such things, no one is ever interviewed about the long term behavioral patterns of the assailants in the home, whethere they were in severe sleep deficit, complained of nightmares, voices in the head, anything. That spells a massive coverup and further insurrection in America vis a vis the attempt to use exotic weapons of mass destruction because they are believed to be easy to get away with; or provide an umbrella of total indemnity for their illegal open season on the public.
The repeat and reliable assailant suicide after the shooting spree is clearly a prolonged torture/bargaining struggle which finally decays into performing the State Department's errand to whip up public demoralization and coerced fear, in exchange for a believed release from agony after committing suicide. That is the hidden republican/insurgent agenda and Contract on America--don't believe the disguise issue. It is being manufactured to cover up the targeting of an exotic weapon of mass destruction for the inducement of heinous, rampant atrocities.
You really shouldn't do more than three cans of whipping cream at a time . . . this is the result.
...you had something you wanted to say.
Several orf your sections have been discussing "hate" on cable shows and publications. I have been complaining about its increase for years now. I am a political chatroom regular and have watched, gratefully, as other posters in four rooms have begun to put the insulters, haters and sloganeers on "ignore" rather than allow them to interrupt intelligent, interesting discussions. There is a backlash and swing away from attack talk. May you all now enjoy each other's company.
Since when do Christians follow the Old Testament? I thought that was the Jewish book of the Bible and the New Testament was the Christian book. Not being a real religious literate person, I may be wrong. However, I do think that Coulter should be relegated to Fox "News" only. Respectable news outlets should not let her come on to hype another one of her hate-filled, factually-deficient books.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, THE TRUTH IS THE GREATEST ENEMY OF THE STATE." -- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945 "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye: the more light you pour on it, the more it contracts." Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, U.S. Supreme Court "When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” -Sinclair Lewis
___Sound precautions regarding the otherwise inexplicable recurrences of Ann Coulter ‘media’____ An industrial publicity industry is not without its industrial waste, or its cartel of interests in the production, promotion and distribution of that waste. /**** The Ann Coulter Show, Produced by soft money, Directed by mediamatters.org ****/ Post prehistoric blond joke, Colt’r, mind of a child trapped within an adult facade (proponent of Tim McVeigh the only Oklahoma Federal bomber found and convicted) is undoubtedly analogous to any other extreme leftist paramilitary brainwash victim. Controlled by the ULWRRA, in another day she could’ve been captured in a bank video with big sunglasses swinging a machine gun like Patty Hearst did. And she might have to step into the fallback role if Congress can’t be fooled into recruiting more foreign ‘shady characters’ for Jo Ann Davis’ domestic terrorism agenda out of Virginny. Ultra Left Wing Red Republican Army ambitiousness has gotten so used to getting away with its swipes of murderous vandalism it thinks it owns the joint. The sleeping giant has yet to rouse. But in time, like any other terrorist zealots, like that cipher wombat Harriet Miers, waxen and hideous, plotting the firing of all U.S. District Attorneys at her Munky King’s behest, they will overreach (like the criminally psychopathic) and presume to nominate to the Supreme Court such an imported combination endorsed by the other fanatic in the Mid East. It’s the old joke from that godforsaken blighted waste of America’s resources: “Whose fatta, you or me?” Well they’re both fatta, as in crazy as ----house rats.
(...continued..._
Talk about ‘shady characters’, where did they dig up Harriet Miers? What exactly did Colt’r mean when she was speaking for her own extremists fringe, Christian front on the subject of ‘perfecting’. Is she a eugenicist, a racist, and a fatuous Nietzschian pervert for physiognomic titillations like Madison Avenue is, still dominated by European monarchio fascists who orchestrated the holocaust–and appear to be controlling the same slave pawns to tear down American government? The scripted media virus the ULWRRA Drone is trained to speak “...perfected...” in a contrived setting is not elaborated on. It’s just supposed to trigger reaction by touching sore nerves. Again, the psychologically conditioned subject isn’t really capable of lucidity, or coherent interaction for any sustained length of time, she just deploys the conditioned soundbyte. ‘Blond’ became ugly with the same lack of restraint the ULWRRA terrorists always display. It has too many skelators in its closet...you could say...has mobbed the media, and is none other than the paragon of narcissism.
Cuckoo Stepford units are set to go off, don’t be fooled, they rehearse the lines handed to them by the artificial “interview event” producers and directors. The sad fact is no one would interview a nobody like Colt’r because she has no ‘brain’ to speak of...at least until deprogramming... thus, only because she is prized for irritant value are small junk-media commercials staged with her cast in them. What conversation could you possibly have with the vacant, programming victimized automism of an ULWRRA operative and likely abused White slave? And that could mean her usefulness as an item being shoved in front of the public is for intimidation value over hidden channels of political coercion--the trade in compromising the perfect dupes with stupid pet tricks. What will Coulter say next? Who will she finger if they get out of line? Who has she ‘fingered’ in order to wave it at them? She would appear to have no other purpose (or media relevance) than that sort of intimidation. I get the distinct impression she’s an open threat to certain conquests of her controllers. There must be a rational theory to her phenomena...and quite possibly a hidden life typical of such mind controlled amnesiacs. Indeed Coulter has “whiffed..” or snorted anyway in the direction of that “..bathhouse.” already, like a real career “metro-sexual”–matter harry, pizza the hut’s delivery girl.Sound precautions.
I am offended by Joe Scarb0rough stating objective, easily refutable lies.
Ann Coulter did not condemn Jews. She clearly stated she believed they would go to heaven.
Ann clearly stated she herself was a sinner. Jesus died for her sins. That is the faith. There is no holier than thou attitude at work here.
The good works Scarborough cites are the natural outgrowths of accepting Jesus as one's savior. They are not the essence of Christianity. Works cannot saved your soul.
Scarborough started his segment by taking the Lord's name in vain. Hard to accept/respect that.
No mention of Ann inviting Donny to church, a gracious, inviting, loving thing to do.
When condescending talking heads like this team display their fundamental and total misunderstanding of the Christian faith, it's hard to trust them on anything.
Hey Baffled -
Your religion is way worse than mine, because we don't believe some long-haired bearded arab dude is the son of our God.
Wanna come to synagogue with me some time? It's a blast, and I think you would learn a lot about the stupidity of your religion.
</sarcasm>
Nice jab Mary...unfortunately you just wrote that you believe Ann Coulter would be a pretty good Jew, gee look at that…I meant to write “rabbi”. Didn’t you know the Pharisees are the forerunners of Rabbinic Judaism? Nevertheless, your parenthetical statement is rather snide as well as anti-Semitic. The inclusion of Moses is without merit as well.
That Rino Hunter [sic] statement, “Jesus said nothing about the role the government should play in helping the poor.” Reminds me of the cleric’s statement in the film “Serial Mom.” It’s John Waters’ great invective about: When Jesus hung on the cross, he didn’t say anything against capital punishment. So let’s just do it! { Kathleen Turner then sneezes on the baby in front of her and the police spring their trap}
¶ Rino Hunter cannot admit [to himself] let alone conceive of, his ingrained fallacies regarding Christianity. He’ll duck & weave about yet he cannot hear, he’s been deceived into errancy. He could not accept his own words if given by others.
My apologies, my DSL network has been behaving poorly, as my initial posting ended up here and not beneath its intended location. Here’s the latter’s contents:
“I think you're missing something here. Ann Coulter does not practice Christianity (or any other kind of spirituality) She'd make a good pharisee, however. (The ones who opposed Jesus) We've got the scribes and the pharisees in the White House; and Moses and Jesus are left out.” [MARY59 / Friday October 12, 2007 05:29:52 pm EST]
I apologise if my reference to Pharisees wasn't clear. Certainly many Pharisees carried forward the sacredness of Judaism. I respect Judaism and its many enlightened Rabbis/Teachers.
However, as is referenced repeatedly in the Gospels, there were Pharisees, Saducees and Scribes who were the fundamentalists of their day; who clung to the letter of the Law and were without understanding. Like the crowd that tries to use the Christian Bible instead of being altered by its wisdom.
And if you don't like the reference to Moses and Jesus left out of the White House, I make NO apologies for that.
By the way, I love San Francisco and spent a number of years there.
As I understand it (if you believe the Bible), there has only been ONE perfect person.
And the religious conservatives of the time killed him because he was a threat to the order of things ...