Buchanan on Hardball: Imus was "more a victim of hatred than a perpetrator of hatred"
On the October 15 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, during a discussion of Don Imus' reported debut on New York radio station WABC in December, MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan told host Chris Matthews, "Chris, in my judgment, the guy is more a victim of hatred than a perpetrator of hatred," later adding, "[I]f Don Imus had been black, nothing would have been done to him." As Media Matters for America documented, on the April 4 edition of MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, Imus referred to the Rutgers University women's basketball team, which, during the 2006-07 season, was composed of eight African-American and two white players, as "nappy-headed hos." Imus was subsequently fired from CBS Radio and MSNBC.
Later on Hardball, Matthews stated that Rev. Al Sharpton "has said that before Don Imus can come back on the air, he has to pay some sort of restitution to these women" on the Rutgers basketball team. Buchanan replied, "The worst, worst price the gals and the team paid was to have to fly out and be on Oprah. They're the most famous women in America. Everybody praised them and fawned all over them." When author and Georgetown University professor Michael Eric Dyson stated, "Since he's going to come back -- this is what I'm interested in. Will he, when he comes back, make restitution -- not in terms of money ... by saying, 'Look, my show's going to be different. Not that I can't be irreverent and politically incorrect. I love irreverence and political incorrectness. But I'm going to have a black person on to give it to me just as well as I give it. I'm going to have a broader consciousness of what's going on,' " Buchanan responded, "That sounds like a shakedown to me."
Additionally, Matthews asked Buchanan: "[Y]ou agree it's wrong to have [former presidential adviser] Vernon Jordan portrayed as Calhoun from Amos 'n' Andy? The old accents from that radio show? Is it OK to say this is Vernon Jordan talking? Isn't that racist?" Buchanan replied: "But it's a put-on. ... [O]bviously, they exaggerate [News Orleans Mayor Ray] Nagin. Look at what they do with the cardinal." Buchanan was apparently referring to former Imus in the Morning executive producer Bernard McGuirk who, as Media Matters has noted, performed the character "Cardinal Egan" on the show. When Matthews pressed, asking: "No, not exaggerating. ... Where they simply portray a black guy as some character, some cartoon character out of Amos 'n' Andy. You don't have a problem with that?" Buchanan responded: "I thought Amos 'n' Andy was a great show, didn't you?"
In a later segment, Matthews said: "By the way, wish them well, the women. We can't talk more about this tonight, but I think our debate tonight between Pat and Michael -- and as [actor] Leslie Nielsen said in his wonderful movie Naked Gun 2 1/2, 'When it comes to boxing, never bet on the white guy.' "
During the April 4 edition of Imus in the Morning, Imus referred to the Rutgers University women's basketball team as "nappy-headed hos," immediately after McGuirk called the team "hard-core hos." Two days later, Imus apologized on air, calling his comments "insensitive and ill-conceived," adding that "[i]t was completely inappropriate, and we can understand why people were offended." He further called the comments "thoughtless and stupid." However, while acknowledging that it was not "OK" for him to call members of the Rutgers team "nappy-headed hos," Imus asserted on the April 10 edition of his show, and on NBC's Today that the phrase "originated in the black community." Specifically, he stated: "I may be a white man, but I know that ... young black women all through that society are demeaned and disparaged and disrespected ... by their own black men and that they are called that name." Echoing Imus, Buchanan asked Dyson on Hardball, "Where do you think he got the phrase, 'nappy-headed hos?' " then answered his own question: "That's out of rap music!"
From the October 15 edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews:
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to Hardball. It was back in April that both CBS and MSNBC fired TV and radio host Don Imus, following Imus' derogatory comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team. Now, according to the New York Daily News today, Don Imus is expected to return to radio this December, just a couple of months from now, on WABC in New York -- that's a big radio station up in New York -- in a deal that will most likely include syndication all across the country.
By the way, we called WABC and got no comment, other than, "No official statement has been made about Don Imus." I love the way people talk. Machines talk like that. Anyway, should Imus return to work? Has he suffered enough?
That's our Hardball debate tonight. And I put the question to Pat Buchanan and then I will put it to Professor Michael Eric Dyson of Georgetown, author of Know What I Mean? Pat, has he suffered enough?
BUCHANAN: Oh, sure. I mean, good heavens, I think he made a foolish, insulting comment at 6:15 in the morning -- a throwaway line about "nappy-headed hos" -- and then to be basically hammered, and for 10 days, and abused and lose his job and have -- and be treated as though he's one of the great evil men of Western Civilization I thought was appalling. The man is a friend of mine, and I think a real spirit of censorship was involved in here. And frankly, I think --
MATTHEWS: Do you think he should have not been fired?
BUCHANAN: Well, there's nothing MS -- we could have done once the advertisers had pulled out.
MATTHEWS: No, but do you think he should have stayed on the air?
BUCHANAN: Well, of course not. I think he should have gone out for a week or two-week suspension, and come back and been on the air. His viewers have been deprived of the guy. Chris, in my judgment, the guy is more a victim of hatred than a perpetrator of hatred. What he said that morning was stupid and foolish, but it was a throwaway remark.
MATTHEWS: Who are the haters?
BUCHANAN: The haters are the people who went after him with 10 days of premeditated assault, trying to drive him off the air; self-professed Christians who are beating a man to death, who has apologized again, and again, and again. It was a disgusting example in my judgment of piling on. It was the American establishment at its worst.
DYSON: Yeah, well --
MATTHEWS: Professor Dyson, respond to that.
DYSON: Yeah, well, Michael Vick probably feels the same way that you're describing that my brother felt. Yeah, I think, look, it was not only ridiculous and silly and stupid, it was also racist. That's a word that Mr. Buchanan failed to mention. It's not simply about personal bigotry, it's about the fact that "nappy-headed ho" signified a hierarchy of beauty with white and black women. Very few of the women had, by the way, had nappy hair. Nappy is contour duplicated, anthropologically, or just in the common vernacular: kinky --
MATTHEWS: Right.
DYSON: -- black hair. So, first of all, is his optic nerves being distorted by his bigotry, because most of those women had straightened hair?
Number 2, how did he know they were hos? I'm saying the point is that Mr. Imus' comments dredged up some of the worst feelings about black women in this country that, by the way, predate by far Mr. Imus. Those are unconsciously driven into the fabric of American society that demonize black women. I think that -- look, this is one of the few times that insulting a black woman made you pay a penalty, one of the few times when a black person got insulted and was vulnerable by a white male figure in American society and actually paid add penalty for it.
Now, what penalty did he pay? He's back on the radio in December? I'm not mad at Mr. Imus for getting another shot at the job, but let's see if he'll be as deferential as he said he would be. Let's see if he will be as apologetic, and why would women say --
MATTHEWS: What would you like -- well, the debate here, Michael, is whether he suffered enough. Do you want him off the air another two years, or what?
DYSON: No, it's not --
MATTHEWS: What's your penalty?
DYSON: You know what? If he comes back, that's fine.
MATTHEWS: No, what's your penalty box?
DYSON: My -- well, he got fired. That was a great -- that was the penalty he should have paid.
MATTHEWS: No, do you want him to stay off the air longer?
DYSON: No, I think he should come back on and do everything he said was going to do should he have been given a second chance, which is, be racially conscious, be understanding of the fact that he was complicit in some negative viewpoints. And, Mr. Buchanan, whoever appeared on his show and frolicked with the good old white boys club there, is part and parcel of the same fabric -- to mix metaphors -- of the very problem we're talking about here.
MATTHEWS: Well, you got me there --
DYSON: And I'm saying --
MATTHEWS: -- because I used to do his show a lot.
BUCHANAN: If Don Imus was black --
MATTHEWS: Go ahead.
DYSON: I'm saying --
MATTHEWS: Let me tell you --
DYSON: -- and everybody [inaudible] was on there was complicit.
MATTHEWS: And let me tell you my views about -- go ahead, Pat. You're marking it. Your argument is?
BUCHANAN: Sure, with due respect -- look, if Don Imus had been black, nothing would have been done to him. As we're hearing right here, it's the very fact he was white and his insulting comment was made about black women. And it's an unpardonable comment that he made and should apologize for. But to hear him compared to Michael Vick, who viciously --
DYSON: I didn't compare them. I think I would have --
BUCHANAN: -- tortured dogs and lynched dogs --
DYSON: I didn't compare them.
BUCHANAN: -- and put gods in fights. Well, you just threw out Michael Vick's name.
DYSON: No, no, I said Michael Vick felt the way you said that Mr. Imus felt.
BUCHANAN: Well, for --
DYSON: But here's my point. Here's my point.
BUCHANAN: You compared -- what did you bring him up for?
DYSON: But this is the typical reaction of a white patriarchal system that says, "If he had been black." Let me say, if he had been black and said "silky-headed hos" talking about white women, I think there would have been an uproar. But the history of race in this country suggests that the demonization of black women is something for which white men have not paid sufficient penalty.
BUCHANAN: You know, Professor --
DYSON: I think him getting fired was a beautiful thing.
BUCHANAN: Professor, cut it out.
DYSON: Cut what out, sir?
BUCHANAN: Where do you think he got the phrase "nappy-headed hos"?
DYSON: It didn't come from black --
BUCHANAN: That's out of rap music!
DYSON: No, no, no. Rap is a condens- --
BUCHANAN: You never heard it in rap music?
DYSON: Let me finish. I'm an expert on rap.
BUCHANAN: Uh-huh.
DYSON: Rap has [unintelligible] condensed "whore" to "ho." That is true in the vernacular.
BUCHANAN: Uh-huh.
DYSON: "Whore" is a word that predates rap music. Look for Benjamin Franklin and others of that ilk to talk about that. My point is simply this.
BUCHANAN: "Ho" is not in rap music?
DYSON: Hold on. No, no, no. I'm saying to you that "whore" is a notion that is predating rap music. "Ho" is a term that has been used in rap music. It didn't start with rap music. So, all I'm saying to you, I'm not denying that rap music has been vitriolic in its perpetuation of a negative legacy toward black women.
But for you to sit up here, Mr. Buchanan, and act like "ho" was invented by black people, when black women were treated like hos when they came here in 1619 --
BUCHANAN: The word "ho" --
DYSON: -- you're missing a sense of history, sir.
BUCHANAN: I know what whore is. I've read Shakespeare. I know what that is. That was all white. "Ho" is a black --
DYSON: It's not simply reading material what "whore" is.
BUCHANAN: "Ho" is a black terminology.
DYSON: "Ho" is a -- I didn't say that, you said rap music. You said --
MATTHEWS: OK, let me -- let me invoke --
DYSON: You said hip-hop.
MATTHEWS: Let me invoke --
DYSON: I said it's a condensation of a term.
MATTHEWS: Let me invoke -- let me invoke the first estate here: Al Sharpton.
DYSON: Right.
MATTHEWS: No, no --
BUCHANAN: The [inaudible] arbiter our time.
MATTHEWS: He says -- I asked him about this a while ago -- think what you will of him as a human being or as a person, Pat -- he has said that before Don Imus can come back on the air, he has to pay some sort of restitution to these women.
BUCHANAN: Tell him to stuff it! Excuse me.
DYSON: That's why -- because the consequence for dissing black women --
BUCHANAN: I mean, who the hell is Al Sharpton --
DYSON: The consequence of dissing black women is low. Mr. Buchanan doesn't want that restitution to be paid because we shouldn't be at penalty for dissing black women.
BUCHANAN: Restitution --
DYSON: I think he's paid his price.
MATTHEWS: One at a time.
DYSON: Come back on the air and do the right thing.
BUCHANAN: Let me -- restitution --
MATTHEWS: Go ahead.
BUCHANAN: The worst, worst price the gals and the team paid was to have to fly out and be on Oprah. They're the most famous women in America. Everybody praised them and fawned all over them. Chris, and the idea --
MATTHEWS: Wait, you're incredibly --
BUCHANAN: -- and the idea that this country -- the idea that this country has reached the point where Al Sharpton is the guy handing down moral judgments --
DYSON: He's a --
BUCHANAN: -- tells you you are really in the tank.
DYSON: That's not what he's -- this is what he's saying. Simply this: The fact is, they went on Oprah why? Because finally a brilliant, globally successful black woman was able to reach out and help. We couldn't have done that 20, 30 years ago.
BUCHANAN: How --
DYSON: Hold -- let me finish. The white media itself is congratulating itself for its own liberal consciousness when the white supremacist --
MATTHEWS: Wait, wait. Slow down here.
DYSON: -- ideas are being perpetuated.
MATTHEWS: Let me tell you. I happen to know that --
DYSON: That's all I'm saying to you, brother.
MATTHEWS: I want to ask you -- first of all. I think I want to add something to this. First of all, one of the reasons -- I'm not sure all the reasons -- that NBC decided to get rid of him on this show was not just advertising pressure, I'm assuming that.
DYSON: Right.
MATTHEWS: But our colleagues, Pat, in the business of NBC News believe -- and I think they've had a good case -- that they're held to standards. People like -- people in our business. I'm not going to name names --
BUCHANAN: I know you won't.
MATTHEWS: -- in our business are held to certain standards about what they can say about people. They say, "Well, how come this guy, Don Imus, doesn't have to be held to those standards?" He's on NBC, on the air --
BUCHANAN: Oh, but look, Chris --
MATTHEWS: -- and so, their statement was: "You've got to discipline this guy for what we would be disciplined for." That was their argument.
BUCHANAN: I agree.
MATTHEWS: These are not a bunch of people crazy. These are our colleagues.
BUCHANAN: I agree. I agree. Our colleagues, when -- mainly a lot of African-Americans folks -- look --
MATTHEWS: You said a lot of people were haters, that he's a victim of hate.
BUCHANAN: That's what I call a victim of hate, Chris, is this. The guy made a mistake. He apologized again and again --
DYSON: Was it a racist mistake?
BUCHANAN: When you got a guy down and you're kicking him and kicking him --
DYSON: I agree with you, Pat.
BUCHANAN: -- and kicking him for 10 days, that's hatred.
DYSON: Was it a racist comment?
BUCHANAN: Of course it was a silly, racist comment, and he should apologize for it.
DYSON: All right.
BUCHANAN: If he didn't do anything wrong, he shouldn't have been punished in any way.
DYSON: When he comes back -- here's the moment I'm interested in. Since he's going to come back -- this is what I'm interested in. Will he, when he comes back, make restitution -- not in terms of money -- let me finish -- by saying, "Look, my show's going to be different. Not that I can't be irreverent and politically incorrect. I love irreverence and political incorrectness. But I'm going to have a black person on to give it to me just as well as I give it. I'm going to have a broader consciousness of what's going on." I'm just asking you --
BUCHANAN: That sounds like a shakedown to me.
DYSON: No, it's not a shakedown. You know why?
BUCHANAN: Sure it is.
DYSON: Because white guy's not interested in being held accountable, bro.
BUCHANAN: Well, you know what it looks like? "Look, he made a mistake, let's hit him up and make sure we get one of our fellows on there."
MATTHEWS: Can we draw some distinctions here? Let me see how tough you are.
BUCHANAN: This is ridiculous.
MATTHEWS: Is there anything wrong with Bernie McGuirk doing a really good imitation of Ray Nagin on the air?
DYSON: No, but you see --
MATTHEWS: OK, you say, "No, but." OK.
DYSON: I say, "No, but." All I'm saying to you --
BUCHANAN: It is funny and it is outrageous.
DYSON: No.
BUCHANAN: It is both. You know it is.
DYSON: Bernie McGuirk's racial consciousness depends upon --
MATTHEWS: I don't think that there's any problem with it at all.
DYSON: I'm saying -- no, no.
MATTHEWS: But I knew there was something wrong --
DYSON: Let me answer the question. I'm saying that black people and women and other minorities have been the victims so much of white male consciousness in terms of jokes that when you flip the script, we don't even --
MATTHEWS: OK. You're missing it.
DYSON: -- we hardly see that.
MATTHEWS: You're missing it. Michael, give me a break. Because I think there's nothing wrong with that if it's a really good imitation. It's what Saturday Night Live does every week. I mean, Darrell Hammond does Jesse better than anybody.
DYSON: But since we know what Bernie --
MATTHEWS: OK --
DYSON: But since we know what Bernie --
[crosstalk]
MATTHEWS: -- you agree it's wrong to have Vernon Jordan portrayed as Calhoun from Amos 'n' Andy? The old accents from that radio show? Is it OK to say this is Vernon Jordan talking? Isn't that racist?
BUCHANAN: But it's a put-on. If it's -- obviously, they exaggerate Nagin. Look what they do with the cardinal.
MATTHEWS: No, not exaggerating. Where they simply replay --
BUCHANAN: Look what they do with the cardinal.
MATTHEWS: Where they simply portray a black guy as some character, some cartoon character out of Amos 'n' Andy. You don't have a problem with that?
DYSON: Absolutely --
BUCHANAN: I mean, I thought Amos 'n' Andy was a great show, didn't you?
DYSON: It's problematic --
BUCHANAN: It was a great American show.
DYSON: -- fundamentally. And the reason it's problematic is that because -- what I'm saying --
MATTHEWS: I think doing Ray Nagin well is different than someone --
BUCHANAN: But what about the cardinal?
DYSON: But this is what you're missing. Who's the victim of these jokes? And it's always a bunch of -- let me finish. It's a bunch of -- if we saw Sunday morning television with a bunch of black people making fun of white people, I'm telling you, the heat would be raised and the index of discomfort would be brought up. But we ain't going to see that. We don't see that.
MATTHEWS: Nobody does white guys better than Chris Rock.
DYSON: Let me tell you one thing, it's really ridiculous that, in America, we still have to deal with this, and it's --
BUCHANAN: How can they --
MATTHEWS: Has he suffered enough?
DYSON: No.
MATTHEWS: Has he suffered enough?
BUCHANAN: How can they be victims when they're the most famous basketball team in history? For heaven's sakes!
DYSON: 'Cause you could be famous as a person who's black. Come on, bro!
BUCHANAN: They got a nasty little slur they never even heard, and they're on Oprah.
DYSON: Oh my God! Because they were offensively treated and they were disrespected, and all black women were.
BUCHANAN: Call me a name and then get me on Oprah for my next book.
MATTHEWS: OK, well --
DYSON: Right.
MATTHEWS: I don't think this'll do it, Pat.
DYSON: Yeah, this sure ain't going to happen, brother.
BUCHANAN: Not this one.
MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, Pat Buchanan. Thank you to Professor Michael Eric Dyson. Up next, the Hardball roundtable.
[...]
MATTHEWS: By the way, wish them well, the women. We can't talk more about this tonight, but I think our debate tonight between Pat and Michael -- and as Leslie Nielsen said in his wonderful movie, Naked Gun 2½, "When it comes to boxing, never bet on the white guy." We'll be right back with the roundtable. You're watching Hardball, only on MSNBC.
I watched that last night, and laughed and just bit my lip. In Buchanans world you can say racist , sexist things against innocent young intelligent women, but when he is called on it , it is hate. Nice world of Buchanan. Did he feel the same about when President Clinton was being attacked and victimized for Monica? Which was about nothing but a private affair. The nerve of these cons.
And so the double standards continue...
Pat makes sense on occasion, not today.
Well, even a blind squirrel is bound to find a nut in the forest. All Buttcannon needs is a forest...
Better than a broken analog clock?;-)
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!
I offer Pat Buchanan for the Republican Nomination for President of the United States of America! I think we should encourage with money, and praise to the Republican to have Pat give the keynote speech in lew of the real nomination.
This way Pat can have his political moment in the limelight come full circle and the Democrats will be happy to take the White House, Congress, and Senate while Pat shows them the way he started in '91!
Sounds like a plan, let's get out there and support Pat!
Happy Thoughts;
Dan Grady
Well I for one think Imus was treated unfairly, and I can not wait for his return. The real issue was the phonyness of Senators Dodd, McCain, Biden, Lieberman, McCaskill who appeared on his show to spew their thoughts. Media types from the entire NBC Staff and Newsweek which then became "outraged" The man was on the netword for 10 years. MSNBC Showed exactly whey they are the joke of cable in how they handled the Imus affair> Good luck Imus, I hope you get back at all of them.
You have a point.
There were many people complicit in the success of the Imus show.
But Imus controlled the microphone and he's ultimately responsible for what comes out of his mouth when he's in front of it.
Well I for one think Imus was treated unfairly, and I can not wait for his return. Sueeld
How was Imus treated unfairly? He apologized and was suspended. That is what corporation due to employees who do wrong. His sponsors who paid for his show declined to support him and bailed. MSNBC did what most corporations due, found he was not 'cost effective' and fired him!. You have a business that cost you more money to produce than you make what would you do? Keep the business going and continue to lose money?
I, for one am sick of people saying Imus was treated unfairly. He went too freaking far, period!!!!!. Maybe if he reappears he will have learned his lesson!
Pearlene,
You just described perfectly why Rush Limbaugh will be on the radio for many years to come. He makes a lot of money for his employer, and no silly "contact your local radio station" campaign by this website will change that.
Dave, Rush may be on the radio and he may still have listeners but any influence he may have will hopefully fade into the sunset.
It's tough being an angry white male these days.
Yeah poor victim Imus. When will the American people learn that while actions have consequences for THEM its just horrific if actions have consequences for being a racist jerk
I watched this exchange last night. Buchanan & Dyson both made good points & bad.
Dyson's denial that "Ho" is black terminology found in Rap was disingenuous. Buchanan suggesting that Imus was a VICTIM of hate or anything else was ludicrous.
Referring to anyone as a "Ho" or "Whore" is offensive, unless of course that's what they do for a living...
I do believe that Imus's punishment did not fit his crime. He apologized to the young ladies he insulted. He should have been suspended without pay for several weeks, not fired.
Others have uttered racists remarks or even been a member of racist organizations, they've apologized, been forgiven & gone on to lead productive lives...such being elected to the Senate.
I have a very vague recollection of Amos & Andy. I remember being a small child & watching it [for some reason I'm thinking in the late afternoons] between the Three Stooges & cartoons. I can't remember enough about it to recall if it was racist or not. However from what I've since read, many thought it was.
Well stated J,
Imus made his career off of provocative statements......he did hit below the belt when he uttered this slur against the Rutger's women because they are not public figures and didn't deserve his "joke".
However, he did the right thing and apologized for it....he took responsibility. Whether or not he deserved to lose his job is up to his employers - if their advertisers were jumping ship they made a business decision to let him go - their perfect right.
If he comes back and his audience and advertisers return, so be it.
Imus will be fine. He'll find a home on satellite radio... or some HD cable channel.
I'm sure he will. I have no interest one way or another whether Imus is back on the air or not, I never listened to him before and won't now.
It's up to the person who hires him and gives him a microphone, while the nation's busybody media hall monitors will do what they do.......
I agree. I don't feel sorry for the man... or really care either way. He'll probably make more money and have greater notoriety. Such is the way...
What is forgotten is that he was fired because of sponsor's bailing on the show. It became a money issue and a corporate "save face" tactic. Hall monitor or not, he said it and suffered the consequences.
Absolutely. Therefore, I don't feel bad for this guy...or any of these jokers. He's made a career (from day one) of walking that line... he got busted. 'Hall monitor' or not... no one to blame but Imus. The absurd thing is, many of these guys want this sort of exposure. Imus will renegotiate and be better off in the long run.
It may be unseemly to be a hall monitor, but I think you are missing the point of all of this. The likes of Limbaugh, Imus and others have been spewing their vile cr*p for decaades with no accountability. And to answer an implied chicken or egg conundrum: They started it.
MMFA may or may not be effective. But it is high time for people to respond to the destructive irresponsible garbage.
Imus made a deliberate racist comment and he got fired. He was a victim of himself.
"[H]e did hit below the belt when he uttered this slur against the Rutger's women because they are not public figures and didn't deserve his 'joke.'"
So if they were public figures, then they would have deserved his "joke"?
Does Bush deserve the jokes that are made on him? The hateful ones that question his mental capacity, drinking? Just curious if you are so outraged at calling the president a "re**tard" like Bill Maher and Chris Rock? Mental Retardation is not funny, unless it is when you call the President one.
Have you heard the one about Bill Clinton and Monica...
Exactly, was that funny and acceptable also because Clinton was a President?
For the answer to that, go ask someone on Freakrepublic ...
I thought this one was pretty funny back when I saw it.
Well, that's a total non sequitur. What do jokes about Bush's stupidity have to do with racist jokes about black people?
Sueeld, I think you pushing it alittle too far. Big difference between racist jokes and jokes about a President (who many including myself feel is stupid).
Calling Bush a "re**tard" would be an insult to those afflicted with mental retardation.
Does Bush deserve the jokes that are made on him? The hateful ones that question his mental capacity Sueled
IMO, Hell yes!. This is the President who is the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet and HE CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? Yeah, IMO, he's a well deserving joke!
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!
tommy / Tuesday October 16, 2007 12:24:30 PM EST
So, it's an issue of money? Money?
Tommy, it would be alright for your daughter at the moment of her greatest acheivement as an student athlete on national television to be referred to as a "nappy headed ho?"
You think our public airways are meant for that? If the argument is the restriction of a freedom to speak, why does he not go the way of satelite radio, and be satified with a properly restricted audience of those whom purposely pay to hear it?
If he suggested that they wanted to be raped as a part of their celebration, that would be ok?? No, that would be a overt threat on another. But, if he coyly put the suggestion in the form of a jest, say "those nappy headed ho's look like they want it, want it now," that would be alright?
Where does this line exist for the conservative? When is civility, civil?
Happy Thoughts;
Dan Grady
I tend to agree that Imus was punished beyond the crime. I get the impression he was adlibbing and it came out awkward. He was contrite and I am unaware of any pattern of racism in his past. Compare this, however, with Limbaugh!!! I would not have taken the comment Imus made as a serious attempt to denigrate the team as actual whores, whereas most of Limbaugh's crap i take as a serious attempt to denigrate the target. Imus was just trying to be funny. Limbaugh tries to influence politics. I find myself often agreeing with PB about some things although I never put the large picture together the way he does. He is one of my more favored conservatives and I saw a poll recently that says conservatives more often disagree with him than most other pundits of their tribe. I think he more likely to have an original thought.
"Dyson's denial that "Ho" is black terminology found in Rap was disingenuous."
Except of course he never said that. Buchanan asserted that Imus got the phrase "nappy headed hos" from "rap music," and Dyson attempted to explain to him that the term did not originate with rap music. He didn't say that the phrase couldn't be found in rap music; he simply pointed out that Buchanan's attempt to blame rap music for Imus's slur was absurd and baseless.
I'm tired of hearing that rap music is why Imus insulted the Rutgers women. That a poor excuse. Before Imus said what he said, no rap artist called the Rutgers women what Imus did. Imus targeted specific people with racist language. That's the difference.
It's the ever-popular technique of blaming black people for white people's racist behavior.
So Michael Vick killed dogs because of White People? Nice.
I believe you just made that leap and want to blame it on the statement above?
Wow. You're crazy.
Dyson brought up Michael Vick in the conversation with Buchanan.
Don't blame Dyson for the enormous leap in logic that you just made. What I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with Vick killing dogs, and you're attempt to connect the two is absolutely pathetic.
Yeah attack me because Dyson brought Vick into the conversation.
DYSON: Yeah, well, Michael Vick probably feels the same way that you're describing that my brother felt. Yeah, I think, look, it was not only ridiculous and silly and stupid, it was also racist. That's a word that Mr. Buchanan failed to mention. It's not simply about personal bigotry, it's about the fact that "nappy-headed ho" signified a hierarchy of beauty with white and black women. Very few of the women had, by the way, had nappy hair. Nappy is contour duplicated, anthropologically, or just in the common vernacular: kinky --
First of all, you're apparently not understanding why Dyson brought up Vick in the first place, but that's neither here nor there, so let's just recap:
I wrote, "It's the ever-popular technique of blaming black people for white people's racist behavior," in reference to Buchanan trying to blame rap music for Imus's comments. Then you responded by saying, "So Michael Vick killed dogs because of White People? Nice." That response is a total non sequitur and it has nothing to do with my statement at all. If you can't participate in an honest debate without putting words in my mouth and completely twisting what I've written, then stay out of it.
If you can't participate in an honest debate without putting words in my mouth and completely twisting what I've written, then stay out of it.
That is exactly what you are doing to me. You are not being honest.
OK, I'll bite. What exactly am I not being honest about?
CC, I wouldn't even engage with Sue. She enjoys being a contrarian. A month ago she feigned how irresponsible MSNBC was for tolerating Imus's racism for years, and now she switches her opinion that he was unfairly treated. I think she enjoys just saying things that are against popular opinion for the hell of it. She's rarely consistent with her stances. Remember a few months back when she agreed with Buchanan again about Imus being “lynched”?
Preston, my view that Imus was tolerated by MSNBC for 10 years has not changed, I made that point earlier in the thread. However when someone is kicked and kicked and kicked after being down, there comes a point when enough is enough. When people say they are sorry, they serve punishment but should be fogiven.
Sue, you would have a point if Imus didn't have a history of kicking those who were down and doing it repeatedly as if he was sadistically enjoying the pain he caused. I would actually have sympathy for him if he didn't build a career out of attacking those who dare to be different than the standards he set forth for those to follow. Imus and McJerk mocked black people for years -- and it wasn't just playful mocking, they mocked black people just for being black with a unique culture and history in this country. They mocked black history, black dialect, black behavior patterns, subcultures, music, ethnic features, etc., just because their targets didn't fit American (read: white) standards. Thus, I have no sympathy for him. It was NOT the type of ethnic jokes one can get from a Don Rickles who often made jokes about minorities but you knew it was out of love and respect; there was a sense of disdain and condescension from Imus's and McJerk's ridicule that was clearly meant to be hateful.
Clarence Page went on his show years ago pleading with Imus to stop calling black basketball players apes and monkeys (and if one knows the history of racism towards blacks in this country then it's easy to see why blacks are offended by such comparisons. The fact that many white elites used pseudo-science to justify the oppression towards blacks for being "subhuman,” intellectually and biologically underdeveloped, ape-like, etc., in this country for centuries is enough to chastise Imus and his bigotry.) Yet Imus ignored Page because he was rarely punished for his antics. Imus build a career out of being a bully towards others and kicking them when they’re down, or just kicking them because he felt they were in need of white correction. Therefore, please spare me the sob story for him. When you bully others for a long time without ever facing the music, then it’s bound to bite you in the ass some day. It did and it bit Imus's ass quite hard, harder than he expect.
I believe Vick blamed Olbermann.
Johnny I think we can stretch Sue's argument to the limit of the milky way galaxy here. It seem to me this is Sue's logic. Michael Vick was employed by the Atlanta Falcons who I'm sure is owned by white men, maybe a few black investors also. The Falcons paid Vick vast sums of money for throwing an oblate brown ball. Vick buys all those fighting dogs from his proceeds from the Falcons right? So that proves by very tortured logic that he can blame the white man and say they made him buy fighting dogs as he never could have afforded to buy them before he got paid enormous sums of money. Maybe he can use that as the defense for his appeal. <sarcasm chip off>
I've listened to them on tapes from their golden radio age days. Yeah, pretty racist stereotypes. Par for the course in the 50's kinda shocking today
Hell, All in the Family and its spin-off The Jeffersons were shocking and would not be put on TV today. Say what you want these shows was hilarious. Sometimes funny is funny.
I am not defending Imus, however, his contract basicaaly called for him to be controversial. That's NBC's mistake and why they lost the recent legal proceedings. Also, the line was while not defensible -- was a throw away line on a fade out -- Imus has spoken how many hours on the radio? Sooner or later any of us -- some sooner than later -- would offend someone. We're just lucky our job does not put us in the public eye.
Was Imus wrong. Yes. But just let it go, there are more important things than Imus at this point or even while the "story was happening". If racial humor makes everyone uncomfortable let's talk about the racial sterotyoes black comedians throw around also and go from there. No? I don't want to either Chris Rock, Carlos Mencia, and D. L. Hughley are a riot.
Be offended, laugh. "...at any master who lacks the grace to laugh at himself - I laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Are you telling me to let it go? First you dont TELL me what to do EVER. Second I couldnt care less about Imus. I never did. I was never one calling for him to be fired in the first place. I just chimed in with my two cents about Amos and Andy who were on a VERY long time ago. I ONLY was able to hear them from tapes at the library on the Golden Age of Radio along with the Shadow. I thought a lot of people might not have heard their programs firsthand. So get over yourself.
I didn't think Dyson was being disingenuous about the origin of "ho". I don't think rap music was the first to come up with it (it may have popularize it to an extent). However, blaming music for your own idiotic statements and not taking responsiblity for it was what Pat was trying to say.
I have never seen a person (Pat) go to zero relevance in such a short amount of time. He was clearly out of his element trying to debate Dyson.
Pat Buchanan - a voice of reason on MSNBC! It's a miracle. Pat, we hope you'll return to Imus' new show in December.
Pat is far from a voice of reason. He occasionally makes sense. He is an appologist here for Imus racism to say Imus was a victim is ludicrous not reason.
Pat is not a voice of reason on this issue. Imus spewed racist hate and allthough he has a right to work, the public has a right to watch and be critical of him. If he messes up even once the advertisers should pay and Imus hopefully will be gone for good. Hate is not funny, ever.
Can't media matters understand. Farid Suleman is bringing back Imus at all cost. And for those negative commentors here. Live with it or learn how to change your radio dial.
I dont care if he comes back. I never cared if he got fired. He is a talentless jerk. If YOU dont like reading our negative comments I say get over it or learn there are millions of other websites out there.
I only occasionally watched Imus in the morning and found him to be fairly irritating except for his interviews.
I had no problem with his sponsors pulling the plug even though I thought he became a scapegoat and an example of reverse discrimination and a media feeding frenzy. All in all, I would rather see him go away and stay away .
His situation reminds me of Marv Albert. Why on earth anyone would hire him after his scandal is beyond me. Same holds true for R. Kelly, Kobe Bryant, and Bill O.
Please explain how Imus is a victim of "reverse discrimination."
I thought Buchanan said it well. where he said if Imus were black, nothing would have been made of it.
Black rappers and black comedians have repeatedly used the H word, (which I find offensive,) and I've heard nary a peep toward their usage. Some here undoubtedly will even defend blacks using the word. Seems to me that it is an either all or nothing proposition. Everybody can use the term or nobody should. (I'm for nobody using it.)
Imus mistakenly thought that since it was okay for certain blacks to use the H word, he could too. He found out that it doesn't work that way. Hence, reverse discrimination.
"Black rappers and black comedians have repeatedly used the H word, (which I find offensive,) and I've heard nary a peep toward their usage."
Oh really? You've never heard anyone complain about sexism in rap? Your entire argument falls apart right there.
and I've heard nary a peep toward their usage.
You're not listening very carefully then. That tide has changed. The African American community has said enough. As an example, they pulled the plug on Eddie Griffith at some Black Enterprise event about a month or so ago.
But, if it was so evidently wrong for African Americans to use that kind of language, why would it be okay for Imus?
AnotherAmerican, that's a very simplistic, one dimensional way of looking at this -- comparable to how Sean Hannity tackles race (e.g., "Chris Rock gets away with it so why can't Imus?" "Black people call each other the h-word and the n-word all the time, why can't whites?") It’s another reason why when conservatives speak on race they are often clueless and out of touch because they view things from such an isolated viewpoint they can’t even understand the complexity of how race and diasporas were even formed in the first place. As I've explained to you before, every group in this country have certain double standards that members of the group can say to each other jokingly or as a term of endearment, but outsiders can't. I'm gay and I've heard many gays jokingly call each other "sissies," "queer" and even the f-word"; I've heard some Italians jokingly refer to each other as "guineas"; I've heard women jokingly refer to each other as "b*tch." However, when an outsider -- who has a history of being the oppressor towards these minority groups -- tend to say such words, it carries a lot more weight with a different context than members of the oppressed saying them to each other. And that’s because those words are intertwined with the history of oppression. Therefore, if a WASP calls an Italian an ethnic disparaging slur, it will hold much more weight -- regardless if the intentions are malice or not -- than Italians saying it to each other. I'm from the South, too, and I've heard many white Southerners refer to each other as "hicks," "rednecks," "hillbillies," but if a Northerner said such things like that to them they would be deeply offended -- and I've seen it many times when this happened. What's at hand here is that when oppressed subcultures are introduced to the masses through our media, certain aesthetics and behavior patterns will never belong to the private possessions of the minority group again. So let’s stop this “he says it why can’t I” game because it doesn’t move the discussion anywhere when it’s nothing but finger pointing.
This doesn't excuse the double standard, but don't pretend that blacks are the only group that hold rules that applies to others and not towards themselves. Furthermore, to lay blame on Hip Hop for Imus's (and McJerk's) racism is the equivalent of conservatives blaming Goth rockers as to why certain white kids shoot up schools and commit suicide. When will America get enough of scapegoating the entertainment industry for the ills and problems of society and start doing deep investigating of the cause and effect of such issues? Finger pointing the entertainment industry is just another slick way of diverting attention and taking responsibility in helping those in need. We can continue bringing up Chris Rock, Hip Hop, Marilyn Manson, horror movies, etc., all we won’t, but it’s not going to solve a damn thing; it’ll only create more confusion and division in a country that’s already too stubborn to ever recognize it’s flaws and weaknesses.
We can continue bringing up Chris Rock, Hip Hop, Marilyn Manson, horror movies, etc., all we won’t
That should be all we WANT.
Preston, as always from you, thorough and insightful writing.
May I add this? Minorities do not *invent* these words that they may at times apply to themselves in a more friendly context. (...At least for the most part, "ho" may be a somewhat different case--but then again it might not be, did prostitutes coin the term?) I am not so sure when a minority member uses something that was created, as a slur, by someone outside the minority its use is particularly a "double standard". There is the possibility that when such a term is used within an oppressed minority it helps neutralize the word.
Preston, eloquent post as usual.
Exactly Preston
As I've explained to you before, every group in this country have certain double standards that members of the group can say to each other jokingly or as a term of endearment, but outsiders can't
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When those among the group use such language it is an attempt to take the power AWAY from the term, to neutralize the stigma. A whole different agenda to those outside the group using the words. Anyway thats how I see it speaking from the perspective of a shockingly caucasian American Christian male. The most priveleged group of non royalty in the history of the world.
Darkmasss and Pearl, thanks for the kind words, I do appreciate that. :)
Solon, I totally agree with you (as I often do). I believe minority groups who often suffer the brunt of an unjust system tend to deal with their oppression in different ways, and by taking words that are used against them as slurs to subjugate them, they bowdlerize such words as a way to take the pain out of the oppression. I think it’s a way of coping with the oppression, to self-analyze one’s true self, and co-opting words that were originally intended to break the oppressed spirits by revamping the word and its meaning entirely. It’s the whole Lenny Bruce tactic of making the powerful less powerful by beating and out-smarting the elites at their own game.
And this is why I object claims that Limbaugh and Coulter are satirists. As the late Molly Ivins said years ago, “The kind of humor Limbaugh uses troubles me deeply, because I have spent much of my professional life making fun of politicians. I believe it is a great American tradition and should be encouraged. WE should all laugh more at our elected officials—it’s good for us and good for them. So what right do I have to object because Limbaugh makes fun of different people than I do?I object because he consistently targets dead people, little girls, and homeless—none of whom are in a particularly good position to answer back. Satire is a weapon, and it can be quite cruel. It has historically been the weapon of powerless people aimed at the powerful. When you use satire against powerless people, as Limbaugh does, it is not only cruel, it’s profoundly vulgar. It is like kicking a cripple.”
And this is why I object claims that Limbaugh and Coulter are satirists. As the late Molly Ivins said years ago, “The kind of humor Limbaugh uses troubles me deeply, because I have spent much of my professional life making fun of politicians. I believe it is a great American tradition and should be encouraged. WE should all laugh more at our elected officials—it’s good for us and good for them. So what right do I have to object because Limbaugh makes fun of different people than I do?
I object because he consistently targets dead people, little girls, and homeless—none of whom are in a particularly good position to answer back. Satire is a weapon, and it can be quite cruel. It has historically been the weapon of powerless people aimed at the powerful. When you use satire against powerless people, as Limbaugh does, it is not only cruel, it’s profoundly vulgar. It is like kicking a cripple.”
As usual Molly was brilliant and insightful. That is exactly the point. I have two bedrock political principles that define my liberalism. One is people have rights property doesnt and second you NEVER stand with the powerful against the weak.
"Ho" is not a new term. It's a pronunciation of whore. Just like "huerr" is the way the Irish pronounced it. And the other half of it is that Don Imus was male. If a black male newscaster or talk show host had called them that, he'd still hear an uproar from women. And if Don Imus had ben a black woman, we'd be in a pretty interesting alternate reality.
I didn't want Don Imus gone because of his politics.I wanted him gone because I'm sick of media people making personal attacks, insupportable accusations and outright lies, feeling that, because they've been given the microphone, they are immune to the consequences they would suffer in ordinary society.
Oh but solon, we like it fine here, thank you very much.
Pat - you need to get off MSNBC because nobody watches it. Your talents would be better served on say, Fox News.
AND Mr Green, we LIKE criticising Imus, so we will keep doing it thank you very much. If it annoys you, so much the better.
Your talents would be better served on say, Fox News.
I'm cool with that. It's easy to block that channel on my TV.
It's interesting to see how selected Buchanan's memory is. He's obviously forgotten how many other times Imus and crew made racist and sexist comments on their show. Imus got what he deserved, plain and simple. It will also be interesting to see if Imus has changed any before of all this, whether his show will be any different. I seriously doubt it, be we'll see.
The truth is Imus is the victim. And thanks to Media Matters, NOW, and NAJB you have been successful in removing the best tv program on.
Now you all are persucuting him and blacklisting him, trying to decide what "punishment" is sufficient when, in fact, there is no punishment or penalty because no FCC laws or regulation was broken.
Not only have you persucuted Imus but you have victimized his many fans, about 50 percent are female, by being complicit in removing our choice to watch a simple tv show.
Well imo you have lousy taste; but that's irrelevant. The sponsors dropped away and that's why the plug got pulled.
I don't believe the sponsor "dropped away". Mr. Capus denied that was the reason he discontinued Imus. I don't believe him either. But if a company wants to hire him, isn't it persecution and McCarthyism to try to keep him from working?
The point here is you don't have to like Imus, because you don't have to watch or listen. And I don't have to ask you what you think about my choices.
Ah not suffering the consequences of your actions does not make you a victim. Imus was NOT a victim those he called nappy headed ho's THEY were victims. Imus was a jerk whose chickens came home to roost.
Minor addendum to Preston's post. Groups have taken curses, applied names and made them their own. Military examples; Marine, jarhead, sailor, squid, flying sailor, airdale. Interactions can be confusing. two people from different groups who've mutual respect can use those words which if strangers or of known enimity did, is synonomus with, "Them's fightin words."
I have another take on this - Personally, I am thrilled that Imus was taken off the air... The question is given this outrage towards him, why hasn't there been equal outrage when folks like Ann Coulter, Michele Malkin or Laura Ingraham go on the air?
Every time one of those women opens her mouth, you just know that they are going to say something incendiary and mean -- can't we all work to get those women off the air as well?
Come to think about it, why can't we get Rush Limbaugh off the air or any of the other idiots on the radio - the Rusty Humphries, the Matt Drudges and the like... By getting Imus off the air it proved one thing - that with enough will power we can take all these fools down if we tried hard enough.
Think about it people!
Can anyone explain to me the difference between Imus and Ann Coulter?
They both make fat pay checks by being disgusting and offensive. (Although I think Imus is definitely the saner of the two.)
"Can anyone explain to me the difference between Imus and Ann Coulter?"
Allison, that's quite easily explained.
Imus is a "perfected" Ann Coulter. This is because by her rules he, being male, is allowed to vote, while she is not.
Pat Buchanan for President.
Thank you, sir, for standing up for Imus and Freedom.
I no longer have the freedom to choose a tv program because of Media Matters, National Association for Women, and National Association of Black Journalists and their little media frenzy. Kind of caught us all by surprise because who would have dreamed that in America, this could happen that a program with advertisers and millions of viewers and listeners and on air pursuant to a recently signed contract could be removed from the airwaves by a little band of discontents who didn't listen to the program at all. (Now I know Media Matters listened to the program, recording and plotting it's demise -- I I do know that now.)
Instead of those who did not want to watch or hear Don Imus turning the dial or blocking the channel (www.theTVboss.org) -- the American Way -- the program had to be snatched, jerked, ripped from the airwaves. Now, I don't believe it was just the two words and I don't believe it was even about race. It was about silencing a voice, a political hit job, if you will. And Notice, the very same little band of protesters are now trying to oppose his return to the airwaves, even in the face of the Rutgers team saying they wanted to move on.
Funny thing, after many calls to Citadel, Ms. Ciara says, "the silence is deadening." Do you get any message from that, Ms. Ciara? As in, "get off my phone."
The sleeping giant is now awake.
The silent majority is speaking. (Key word "majority").
sleeping giant? If I remember, that is Council Bluffs, Iowa.
Media Matters simply provides the transcripts and video/audio of what the pundits, talkers and commentators say. But this is dirty pool, according to the ones who like to forget what they just said.
I hope you will read Preston's excellent comments on the previous part of this thread.
It is a dirty business, especially when they just don't report what is said, most times out of context, but seek to ruin reputations and careers.
Has anyone every seen All in the Family. Was Carroll O'Connor a racist?
You are a liar. MMFA does not, most of the time, run things out of context. And no Carol O'Conner was satirizing racists. Try to keep up.
WWWAHHHHHH, I like racist stupidity. WWAAAHHHHH stop showing the racism and ignorance of my heroes. WWAAAHHHHH, I want to see people called nappy headed ho's. Hey the airwaves belong to us. Everyone has a right to say how the airwaves are used. Imus gored the wrong ox. He got canned. He is coming back. All of this worked out just like it should have.
I'm thrilled Imus will be back on the air, if only to show the likes of Al Sharpton and Al Roker that they look like fools picking out one old, white guy and behaving like little school girls about what he said and what he's said in the past.
Don Imus is the original Shock Jock. It's his stock and trade and I watched the morning he made those unfortunate comments about the Rutger's b-ball team. It didn't even sound like he was paying attention to Bernie McJerk who was prattling on about how "hard" the girls looked. Imus was shuffling papers and looking disheveled as usual and repeated what Bernie said almost as if not paying attention, it seemed.
What he got in return is outlandish in its hypocrisy. Politicians jumped on it as a way to generate attention for themselves, Sharpton marched and protested, Al Roker knashed his teeth about it and claimed that CBS was doing a disservice to all it's employees by keeping Imus employed.
And from that, the sponsors bolted because they're cowards that don't really believe in anything other than worshipping at the altar of Wall Street.
When's the last time you heard about Coulter or Limbaugh or Hannity apologizing for their ridiculous and callous drivel, let alone going on talk shows and apologizing, meeting with the so-called "victims" (thought being a victim wasn't cool, guys!) and apologizing and going on their own shows and expaining that they made a mistake and genuinely felt badly about it. When Rush Limbaugh opened his maw and said that
It wasn't about being afraid to lose his job or income. He's a multi-millionaire. It was about putting some character out there to be urinated on. Oh, wait, that's R.Kelly's gig and it involves adolescent girls. Hmmmm. No Rainbow march on his record label, no pleading with his record company to drop him, no drama, no nothing. Another hip-hop "artist just doing his thing. Hurray! Look away, look away lest ye be accused of being rascist for not understanding or approving it.
So, Imus is already head and shoulders above those hollow dolts and that's without even looking at the money Imus raised for the Texas center for wounded vets that George Bush is cranking out every hour or the ranch in New Mexico where critically ill children can experience what it's like to rope a calf or ride a horse? No, Don, I won't give up my Windex, but I'll go to hell in a handcart before I keep quiet about the thugs and clowns who wag their fingers at you while standing knee-high in solid human waste that is a part of black pop culture.
Imus' critics can't carry his ten-gallon hat! When Al Sharpton puts together a Rainbow march on Death Row records or Interscope Records because of the filth and deparvity they market for millions of dollars, I'll lighten up on what a bunch of disgusting hypocrits they have become.
Sorry, got into a lather and left a dangling sentence fragment...When Rush Limbaugh said that Donovan McNabb wasn't all that good and that American sports media just wanted a black quarterback to spotlight, he got the boot off the football team but no one marched on his gated mansion or protested to his radio network that he should be off the air.
And McNabb got the last laugh by turning out to be one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL regardless of color.
I hope Mr. Imus sues every organization who has smeared and maligned his charcter and reputation. Let's put it in a court of law and see if any of you can prove any evil DEED he has done, any CRIME he has committed, or even any FCC regulation he has violated.
It may take a while but it's easy to sit back and listen and record every word of a live show on the air three hours a day, five days a week, and then come out with a willing media who without question will spread all over the world two words spoken on cable tv at 6:15 in the morning.
Actually Media Matters, NOW, and NAJB are the ones responsible for the words being repeated millions of times. And it must not have been ALL that bad, because it was repeated verbatim by every media outlet known to man.