Goldberg criticized O'Reilly for "kissypoo interview" with Coulter
During the October 18 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News contributors Bernie Goldberg and Jane Hall criticized host Bill O'Reilly for not challenging right-wing pundit Ann Coulter during her October 15 appearance on his program over comments she had made the previous week on CNBC's The Big Idea. Coulter had said to host Donny Deutsch that "we" Christians "just want Jews to be perfected." Goldberg stated: "[Y]ou got very passionate about the Catholic sacrilege in San Francisco, but when Ann Coulter made her comment about how everybody should be a Christian, including all the Jews, because they should be more perfected, man, I was waiting for you two to French kiss. I mean, it was -- you weren't the old Bill O'Reilly." O'Reilly claimed that he "ignored the controversy" because he "never debate[s] theology with a non-theologian, ever." O'Reilly then stated: "Ann Coulter is a commentator. She says some crazy thing that I think is unjustifiable. But why do I want to debate it with her? She doesn't have any credibility in the area," to which Hall replied: "But Bill, you said everybody should be challenged." O'Reilly responded: "I did challenge her in the interview, Jane. It wasn't a kissypoo interview." Goldberg countered: "Yes, it was."
Later in the segment, O'Reilly stated: "All right. Maybe I should have said it was anti-Semitic. I don't think it was anti-Semitic. I think it was just dumb." Then, responding to Goldberg's claim that he "should have been a little tougher," O'Reilly asserted: "OK. It's a legitimate point, but I want everybody to know -- all right -- that I didn't feel that it was a worthy conversation because she's not a theologian." O'Reilly continued: "It's like somebody says to me, Bernie -- this is important. Somebody says to me, 'If you don't accept Jesus, you're going to hell.' How many times have we heard that? Am I going to have a conversation with that person? No, I'm not." Goldberg retorted: "Then don't have her on."
From the October 18 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: Now, Bernie, you got a question about my interview with Ann Coulter. I want to get to that because we have two minutes left. And give me your question. I'll give you my answer.
GOLDBERG: Bill, I say this as a friend and as a supporter of the show. And I watch it all the time and all that. But you got very passionate about the Catholic sacrilege in San Francisco, but when Ann Coulter made her comment about how everybody should be a Christian, including all the Jews, because they should be more perfected, man, I was waiting for you two to French kiss. I mean, it was -- you weren't the old Bill O'Reilly.
O'REILLY: I ignored the controversy. No, no, no. Look, here's why I did what I did, and then I want you both to comment quickly.
I never debate theology with a non-theologian, ever. Bill Maher says Christians are idiots. I'm an idiot for being a Roman Catholic and going to church. That's what he says. Would I debate him on it? No. Do I care what he says? No.
Ann Coulter is a commentator. She says some crazy thing that I think is unjustifiable. But why do I want to debate it with her? She doesn't have any credibility in the area.
HALL: But Bill, you said everybody should be challenged. I think Bernie's got a good point.
O'REILLY: Well, I did challenge her in the interview, Jane. It wasn't a kissypoo interview. I mean -- but I wanted to --
GOLDBERG: Yes, it was.
O'REILLY: No, it wasn't. I got into --
GOLDBERG: Yes, it was.
O'REILLY: I got into politics with her pretty heavily. Oh, come on, Bernie. I said there -- you're telling -- on your cover that all Democrats are idiots? Come on. You can't possibly think that. Come on.
I didn't want to get into that because I don't give it any credibility, Bernie.
HALL: Yeah, but I think Bernie's got a point. There's certain people -- Ann Coulter is on the Today show. She is loved by the mainstream media. She says anti-Semitic things. She says anti-gay things. And no one seems to ever call her on it.
O'REILLY: All right. Maybe I should have said it was anti-Semitic. I don't think it was anti-Semitic. I think it was just dumb.
GOLDBERG: Bill, I'm not even saying it was anti-Semitic. I'm saying, for a guy who is best known for being the, or one of the toughest interviewers on television, you should've been a little tougher. That's all I'm saying.
O'REILLY: OK. It's a legitimate point, but I want everybody to know -- all right -- that I didn't feel that it was a worthy conversation because she's not a theologian.
It's like somebody says to me, Bernie -- this is important. Somebody says to me, "If you don't accept Jesus, you're going to hell." How many times have we heard that? Am I going to have a conversation with that person? No, I'm not.
GOLDBERG: Then don't have her on.
O'REILLY: Well, I want to talk politics with her. And that's what I did. And I just want to explain. You could be right. But it wasn't that I was, you know, soft-balling it. It just was like, look, I'm not going to talk theology with a non-theologian. It gets us nowhere.
How silly. O'Reilly bashes whatever is his outrage of the day with all sorts of people who are merely offering their slanted opinions, agreeing with him, all day long on many topics.
If what Coulter said was uttered by someone he doesn't like he would be accusing them of hiding under their desk if they didn't come on The Factor and defend it. His double standards and tranparency left even Goldberg shaking his head.
Interesting - the criticism of Fox News is that they only promote only rightwing propaganda. Here is yet another example of a Fox News COMMENTATOR having people with opposing views on his program so they can discuss their disagreements.
When was the last time that K Obieman EVER had someone on his program with an opposing point of view? NEVER!
If anyone ever dared to disagree with KO, can you just imagine the way KO would squint his eyes and go into his Himmler-esque ranting as he sputters "you're the worsterest poyson in the wooooiiiiiilldddd"!!!
Yes, Bill-O would just cut off their mic.
There is no denying Keith Olbermann's ideological persuasion and the tailoring of his program to fit nicely into that agenda.
However, there is also no denying the slanted Republicanism of Fox News.....they do have opposing opinions on often, but most items on their opinion shows come from a point of view of the "loony left" as if it's mainstream Democrats, and I don't believe that is fair.
The opposing opinions voiced on Fox are always having to defend such idiocy, so they automatically start from behind the 8 ball.
Bernie Goldberg is a conservative he probably caught O'falafel by suprise and as for Olbermann it really isnt his fault conservatives are scared to death of him.
Bernie Goldberg is not someone with opposing views from Bill O'Reilly at all...with this one exception. And when he does have guests with opposing views, that's when the O'Reilly act really begins...
Olbermann should have more conservatives on his show...it would be great tv.
O'Rielly had that panel dicussion just so he could offer a reason for not challanging Coulter. If he won't talk about religeon with non-clergy why does he talk politics with non-politiians.
"nteresting - the criticism of Fox News is that they only promote only rightwing propaganda. "-BBJ
You don't think the 'Fair and Balanced' slogan, or the 'No-Spin Zone', or the habitual use of outright lies, or even just the general claim to impartiality while the rest of the big bad MSM are all far-left propagandists might have somthing to do with it?
A half-hour ride in O'Reilly's no-spin zone is enough to leave one dizzy for a week.
Fair bloody dinkum, Cobber.
do you wait for new articles to pop up so you can post first?
I wish MM would change their forum style, I'm getting sick of seeing you all over the site.
GOLDBERG: "Then don't have her on."
Gee, I wonder if the Righties are going to accuse Bernie of censorship? Waiting....waiting...
"I'm not going to talk theology with a non-theologian"? That's a pretty limp excuse. I guess it's equally futile to talk politics with a non-politician, then?
You are so right. Coulter claims to go to church. What church ? and does she participate in the sacraments ? So what if Coulter doiesn't apopear on Donny Deutsch's show ? no big loss.
Does that mean BilldO considers himself a theologian?
I was wonder the same thing....I guess Bill is just an authority on everything, including theology.
Or he's a partisan hack with a talent for hypocrisy.
Ya think?
My point precisely. He has absolutely no qualms whatsoever in lambastibg Sean Penn, Danny Glover, and Rosie when they say something irresponsible. Free passes to right-wing lunatics, evidently (to which he is one, obviously).
Mr. O'reilly was right the first time when he said he really doesn't care, neither do I.
I don't think the issue here is Coulter's anti-semitism, but rather O'Reilly's hypocrisy.....again.
I concur.
When Bill gets his undies in a bunch for days on end over a department store banner that says, "Happy Holidays" yet he can't call someone out over controversial rhetoric when he has the chance, it only serves to show where his loyalties lie.
Everytime I turn him on, he sounds like a good American to me.
Really because he always sounds like an outraged moron with no loyalty to anyone but himself who likes to LIE a lot to me.
What methods do you use to turn him on?
What does a good American sound like when he's turned on?
Mr. Beckworth, may I ask what your definition of hypocrisy? This is a serious and heartfelt question, since I don't think I should attack your post without knowing how you define "HYPOCRISY" and how important it is to you as "values" voter.
Why isn't the discussion about Coulter's anti-semitism?
Where's the Platypus?
Runing amuck, why do you ask?
Because I asked you to mind him, Bill.
I think my personalities are out of sequence, again. Dam, BillWilly Will will get right on it.
What's worse , I think that platypus now is drunk!
I love when people take time to inform everyone how little they care about an issue.
So little they had to tell everyone.
LOL. He cares so little that it's worth spending precious minutes of his life at MMFA letting us know.
Has the definition of racism, bigotry, homophobia and antisemitism changed? It's unbelievable, but I don't think there's one racist person in this country anymore. Everything can now be dubbed satire or "dumb". Is this where we are in the arena of political discourse? And how come O'Reilly doesn't talk theology anymore with non-theologians, yet he sold his book to the entire country about he war on Christmas. Seriously, do these people hear themselves when the speak?
Geat post August. We know there is racism. We all admit that racism exist. Ergo there must be racists in positions of influence and power.But they're invisible. They're always someone else. Even when they smack us right in the face with it, we don't confront it for what it is. Imus, Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly are racists, plain and simple. The have all led fairly insular lives and held onto old prejudices that cloud their rationale and, more importantly, their compassion and humanity. It's not all about being good Republicans or patriots or anything else. Its about being good people. And let me tell you . . . I know some good people (even good Republicans ;-) and these are not good people.
Wants to talk politics with her. It would be the first time if she would get through a segment only talking politics without a spiteful commentary. I would also like to hear talk politics to show the world that she cannot debate with "jokes". Love to hear Annie debate a Hartmann...Pay-per-View.
should be without "jokes".
I caught this bit. First time I've caught myself cheering for Goldberg. He pretty much called BilldO a Nancy-boy, and BilldO curled up.
A ridiculous excuse, even for O'Reilly- he didn't discuss religion with Annie-Christ because it's not her area of expertise??
Is that implying that she has any credentials in politics, or any other subject?
No credentials, but she offers a free Coulter Limited Edition Signature Loofah with each interview. An unbeatable offer.
*Warning: Some readers may be disturbed by the modified use of "beat" and "off" in the context of O'Really? and a loofah. Reader discretion is advised.
The thought of O'Reilly or Coulter french kissing anyone is just so repulsive. But the disgust level rises exponentially when I try to imagine these two locking lips.
I think I'm going to be sick.
O'Reilly and Coulter French kissing? I think I just threw up a little. Also, Goldberg should be advised that that's "Freedom kissing."
I have a question for the conservatives on this message board. Are you watching O'Reilly because he is informative or entertaining? I saw an episode of South Park, my guilty pleasure, last night and it dealt with the issue of the media saying and doing the stupid things they say and do for ratings. Who seriously agrees with most of this guys opinions? How is his show rated number one? I just don't understand. This loser threatens his viewers with Fox security, still talks about his bogus boycott of an entire nation and doesn't understand how an entire community was offended by his being surprised they could run a restaurant as well as any white restaurant. Whew! I haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg and I'm exhausted.
Wow! He sounds like a total nut case!
I gotta see this guy...
I don't watch so don't know. I think Bill's jumped the shark.
I heard that show and he didn't say anything bad.
who didn't?
Bill O'Reilly.
August,
I watch on occasion. Sometimes he covers interesting, relevant topics and has informative guests for a good discussion.
Sometimes he props up local stories as he attempts to extrapolate some nationwide cultural deterioration in it's wake, and I laugh and shake my head at him.
So the answer would be both, although more entertainment, and not very much of that anymore, for me, rather than informative.
“I have a question for the conservatives on this message board. Are you watching O'Reilly because he is informative or entertaining?”
I’m a liberal who use to watch O’Reilly’s show and read his column in the Daily News on a regular basis for a couple of years but this was awhile back. I disagreed with him on just about every issue but I thought he treated his guests reasonably and he was willing to let the other side have a say without attacking them. But the guy went psycho – spinning the “no spin zone,” attacking and shouting down his guests, cutting them off and demonizing the other side so I stopped watching his show and reading his column (which now appears in Murdoch’s NY Post). O'Reilly's show is neither informative or entertaining [now]; it's authoritarian and autocratic. This appeals to about thirty percent of the population.
GOLDBERG: "...including all the Jews, because they should be more perfected,".
Bernie apparently doesn't know what 'perfected' means either. Either that or he does not understand Christianity.For those who do not know, the use of the term "Perfected" by Christians has it's origin, in part, from the Book of Hebrews, in the NT.
In it is argued that Christianity represented the perfection of Judaism. Christianity was the religion foretold by the prophets.
Coulter never said Jews need to be more perfected. She also never implied that being a Jew is perfected while being a Christian is more perfected. She even took pains to say Christians believe in the Old Testament and that the Jews were the chosen people. She simply expressed her religious belief that Christianity, (these are my words,) fulfills or completes the Jewish religion. In other words, takes their tradition and faith to a whole new level. This is a simple Christian doctrine regarding Christianity and its relationship to Judiasm.
Everyone, including Bernie, are free to disagree. Jews do not believe in the Triune God. I am not offended. It is simply a statement of faith.
What is lost in all this is the close connection that Christians have with Jews and the shared religious heritage. God bless all Jews.
AA,
I understand the theologic argument, and it may be valid in a more contextual setting and if uttered by someone other than bombthrowing Ann Coulter to get publicity for her book, but neither was the case for her "perfection" comment.
Hence the uproar - Coulter did not make some non-controversial remark on purpose, in fact just the opposite. In a theological discussion this may be a perfectly acceptable discussion to have - in Coulterworld, her intention was to generate publicity by being offensive.
Tommy,
The context of the remark shows that Ann was only responding to Donny's repeated questioning of her 'ideal America'.
Coulter was simply answering his questions about her faith by expressing her feelings the world would be a better place if everyone were Christian.
Donny seemed to take exception to this and asked if she thought he should be a Christian and she simply said, "Yes".
The discussion sidetracked and later Donny came back to it. where it looks to me like Donny purposefully mischaracterized Coulter's statement about being 'perfected' as wanting to wipe Israel off the map.
Coulter asked him if he were paying attention.
After a break, Coulter said: " COULTER: No. I'm sorry. It is not intended to be. I don't think you should take it that way, but that is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews. We believe the Old Testament. As you know from the Old Testament, God was constantly getting fed up with humans for not being able to, you know, live up to all the laws. What Christians believe -- this is just a statement of what the New Testament is -- is that that's why Christ came and died for our sins. Christians believe the Old Testament. You don't believe our testament."
That to me is not being bomb throwing in order to push a book.
When Donny persisted in misrepresenting Coulter's comments she ended the conversation by saying:
COULTER: No, no, no, no, no. I don't want you being offended by this. This is what Christians consider themselves, because our testament is the continuation of your testament. You know that. So we think Jews go to heaven. I mean, [Rev. Jerry] Falwell himself said that, but you have to follow laws. Ours is "Christ died for our sins." We consider ourselves perfected Christians. For me to say that for you to become a Christian is to become a perfected Christian is not offensive at all.
Me - In my opinion, to think Coulter was being purposefully offensive or anti-semitic does not square with the facts. She was simply trying to correct Donny's repeated misperception.
AA,
Points noted. And perhap I am a bit cynical when it comes to Ann Coulter because of the timing of her offensive remarks and how they often coincide with her latest book.....she is a self-promoting, shill, shocker who rarely offers a substantive discussion about anything except to constantly harp on liberals and Democrats.
Her schtick is tiring and worn out as far as I am concerned, so if she is engaging in a discussion of an intellectual nature, I am usually surprised.
But you make a good point, thank you.
"So we think Jews go to heaven."
This is a typical example of the Christian skill of hammering a square peg into a round hole. The entrance of Jews into heaven hardly squares with traditional Christian theology:
John 14:6 (New International Version)
" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
How many times have Christian evangelicals beat non-believers over the head with that verse? Yet Ann tells us that Christians believe Jews go to heaven. I'd like to see a poll on that.
Nerzog,
You make a good point. I personally feel that scripture has been misinterpreted by many. I am not a fundamentalist, so can't answer for them.
For what it's worth, my interpretation is that Jesus is saying the only way to get the Father is through Jesus, he is referring to his dying and rising again. In other words, I think Jesus's sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven so all can get to the Father, both believers and non believers. Most people do follow most of the teachings of Jesus even if they don't know it.
I accept that Jesus as the 'word' of God. I accept it on faith. I also believe that Jesus is love. By doing so, it correlates that loving others is following the teachings of Jesus, (Loving your neighbor is loving your God,). Therefore believers and non-believers are going through Jesus and will know, (eventually,) the Father.
I've given you the 30 second version of my faith on this topic. I don't have everythin gworked out and I feel I fall short every day. But there is great joy for me and comfort knowing that good people who love their neighbor, will one day be in Heaven.
That sounds a little bit like the First Church Unity, which I attended before I totally gave up organized religion. It certainly doesn't sound like your typical "fundamentalist" who believes that the King James Bible is the only valid translation. There are a lot of those people out there, and I guarantee you...they don't believe Jews, Catholics or Mormons are going to Heaven!
Nerzog, I haven't been to that Church. I have been a Catholic all my life. Even so, I fell away during my college years.
Unfortunately what you say is true. Some Christians take a very literal interpretation. It has caused too much conflict through the ages by Catholics and Protestants alike.
My feeling is that my perception of what Jesus is saying is rather limited. I doubt I am able to actually comprehend all of what Jesus is teaching. I prefer to keep it simple and really do not worry too much about people of other faiths and their eventual reward. That is between God and them no matter what I believe.
oops. I should have mentioned that I came back to the Church many years ago and been "a regular" ever since. :-)
AnotherAmerican if you came back to the "CHURCH" as you call it then you should know that the Catholic Church rejects Ann Coulter's views. philosophically it is called Supercessionism.Look it up , and please stop passing on your misinterpretation of scripture as fact. You are wrong, Ms. Coulters comments are anti-semetic.
That whole Catholic/Protestant thing has been pretty brutal at times. The movie "Elizabeth" portrays just how intense the hatred was. I think if more people adopted your approach to religion, we'd have fewer wars.
I hardly claim it as 'my approach'. Thankfully most all denominations in Christianity and most all other major religions and faith systems preach tolerance.
Most Christian denominations do preach tolerance with the exception of the Christian right. Bob Jones Univ. is a perfect example since they don't consider Catholics Christians. Yet all the GOP candidates do homage to their their intolerance. Go figure.
Krom,
A number of years ago, I had a good friend who was a graduate of Bob Jones and we had some interesting discussions regarding our respective faiths. Even though he might have thought me not to be a Christian, (I don't recall if he actually did, but we discussed where he thought Catholics were in error,) he was as tolerant as me that we had different beliefs.
I accept that Jesus as the 'word' of God. I accept it on faith. I also believe that Jesus is love. By doing so, it correlates that loving others is following the teachings of Jesus, (Loving your neighbor is loving your God,). Therefore believers and non-believers are going through Jesus and will know, (eventually,) the Father"
I agree with this. This is why I couldn’t understand it when a poster the other day said that Gandhi was is in hell because he didn't say the words Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior. Gandhi’s life was exemplary of Jesus’ love for humanity. I know I’ll never reach Gandhi’s level. I believe that people who live Christ’s example regardless of what they call themselves will be judged favorably in the end, maybe even more favorably because they lived a righteous life for its own sake and where not seeking a reward for it if you know what I mean.Shouldn't you then be offended by Coulter's original comments that Christians 'don't have to follow laws' and all they really have to do to get into heaven is to 'accept that Christ died for their sins'
I feel like she is denigrating Christianity more than Judaism. What was up with the FedEx comment, too?
I beleive that living a life based on the spirit of Jesus and the example he left us will be the consideration in the end. Saying things is very easy, so I don't beleive for one minute that all you have to say is I accept Jesus as my personal savior and then you can put on a Black mini skirt and go on the hatemongering tour and be favored above others. That's ridiculous
Towelie,
I am not Jewish, but I believe Coulter's reference to 'laws' is referencing the Judeo belief that by following the laws of Moses, one will be reunited with the Father. There are many, including, as an example, proscriptions against eating pork and eating kosher foods.
Christians believe that Jesus and his teachings supercedes those laws.
That is what she meant by 'Federal Express'. She is saying it is much easier to get to Heaven by being a Christian because Christians believe in the rules Jesus taught which in essence are, "Love God and love your neighbor." I saw her comment simply as a humorous way to point out the differences between Christianity versus Judiasm. Like all jokes, humor is in the mind of the beholder.
Oops my reference to kosher should have read, "and eating only kosher foods". Sorry for the confusion.
COULTER: No, no, no, no, no. I don't want you being offended by this. This is what Christians consider themselves, because our testament is the continuation of your testament. You know that. So we think Jews go to heaven. I mean, [Rev. Jerry] Falwell himself said that, but you have to follow laws. Ours is "Christ died for our sins."
---
Falwell's apparent conversion on this question was reported March 2006 in response to something called "dual covenant theology," which allows Jews -- but nobody else -- into their version of Christian heaven without coming through Christ. It is ad hoc theology largely associated with one man, evangelical neocon pastor John Hagee. Falwell's late-in-the-day decision to allow non-converted Jews into his heaven (if true) appeared far more political than theological.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1139395509016
Even this, however, turned out to be false (at least according to Falwell, who may have been lying), because one day later he denied the story and reaffirmed his belief that Jews could not get into heaven.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=12741
Either the original story was false, or Falwell took too much flak from other evangelicals after it broke and lied to cover up his "mistake." In either event, Coulter's statement about Falwell's tolerance is something he would deny.
Brilliant Post! Thanks for being rationale and gracious.
I understand how Christians believe that they are perfected but the connotation is just plain bigoted. Jews don't need perfecting. I doubt that Christians would appreciate being called unperfected Mormons. I could be wrong. Let's ask Mitt.
Theblur,
I think you misunderstand the word, bigot.
to be bigoted in Ann's case is to claim she is not tolerant of the religious beliefs of Jews. No where can you extrapolate that from her dialog and subsequent comments.
She simply expressed her belief, just as you did here.
I'm pretty sure that bigot also emcompasses the belief that a group of people or a race is lesser than yours - this most certainly describes Anne's comments.
Unless, of course, you're going to claim there's a theological definition of bigot, now.
Hahah... No I simply looked it up in an online dictionary. I did not see in the definition your explanation.
We DONT misunderstand the word. The word HAS a meaning. There is no definition of the word that doesnt include being BETTER than UNPERFECTED. At first you TRIED showing the theological definition which we pointed out STILL meant better than. YOU are desperately looking for an appology when none make sense. She said what she said and words HAVE meanings, not the ones you NEED them to have in order to make your argument. You keep condescendingly telling us we dont understand. Yes we do. Either YOU dont or you just cant help but make ANY appology for Gangleskank
AnotherAmerican please look up your own churches view on Supercessionism. Please,Please,Please! Then come back and argue whether what she said was hurtful,you are promulgating what Jewish people have been suffering all these years and fighting against. You knowingly or not are advancing anti-semetic comments; please stop it!
Coulter was simply answering his questions about her faith by expressing her feelings the world would be a better place if everyone were Christian.
I am sure Osama Ben Laden would like to express his veiw that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Muslim. You are both wrong. Only the Red and Gold Frog offers you perfection and you will NEVER be as good as I am until you accept HIS ways.You are a heathen sinner, Solon. Only the Purple Naked Mole-Rat offers true salvation.
You are both wrong. Come, sit on de beach wid me, smoke some of dis, and be touched by de Flying Spaghetti Monsters noodly appendages.
Let me tell you de joy of being a pastafarian, mahn.
"Pastafarian?!" And I thought Gangleskank was good.
I can't take credit for coining the word. The Church of the FSM is rife with creative minds.
"Coulter was simply answering his questions about her faith by expressing her feelings the world would be a better place if everyone were Christian."
How could that be (especially with Coulter being a Christian or claiming to be a Christian)?
And she should have spouted the tenets of Christianity (which coincide with the tenets of almost every religion with few exceptions) instead of going that route.
"We consider ourselves to be perfected Christians."
Well, I'm not a theologian (and I never played one on TV), but that sounds like PRESUMPTION, one of the Seven Deadly Sins, to me.
And speaking of theology (I've referenced this a couple of times before, but I think it bears repeating), Coulter is spouting an ancient, and discredited, Christian belief, supersessionism. This belief, along with the deicide libel, is the ancient theological underpinning of centuries of European anti-Semitism. If you haven't read this article before, please do so now.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-rutten13oct13,1,3524320.column?coll=la-news-columns&ctrack=1&cset=trueDon't know why that didn't hyperlink. If interested, go to Latimes.com and click on Columnists, then Tim Rutton.
Conch,
I agree that Christians have used it to persecute Jews down through the ages. It has been a terrible misrepresentig of Jesus's teachings. As a Christian, I am ashamed of my religious ancestors for their anti-semitism.
AnotherAmerican you must not know the history behind Ms. Coulter's comments. A number of Jewish Organizations and Christian organizations have come out in condemnation of her hateful comments> You should read them,they are presented on this site,before you go on presenting misinformation. .
What's lost is some people dont want others telling them they are imperfect if they dont beleive in the current invisible god that is the one and only way to a mythological heaven.....
If you believes it is a mythological heaven, then why would you argue that others should be offended by what you believe to be a myth?
It's like me telling you that you'll never get past the River Styx. If you are offended, tell me.
In other words, your post is not credible becasue you are an atheist.
You are simply trying to be argumentative while at the same time expressing your disdain for religion. Am I offended? No - even if I do think your post is silly.
The feigned outrage at Coulter's comments are not because of those comments, but only because Coulter said them.
Apparently some Jews, who are not atheists, are offended. Maybe it's the audacity of the notion that becoming a Christian is somehow a step up from Judaism, as though Jews are somehow... suboptimal? Lesser... you know....inferior. Maybe that whole Hitler thing is still fresh on their minds.
I don't think it's a Jewish thing, actually. Most of the reason it's offensive to people who are secular or moderately religious, is that she appears to be using religion as an excuse for being obnoxious and arrogant. Religion shouldn't be used in that way.
Desmond Tutu said and I paraphrase.....Religion is like a knife if you use it to slice bread it's a good thing, if you use it to slice off your neighbor's arm it's a bad thing.
Keep 'em comin' Lynn! All your posts in this thread have been excellent. A tip of my deist beret to you. AA, are you paying attention to Lynn's posts?
Belatedly, yes.
"In other words, your post is not credible becasue you are an atheist."
The idea that atheists, who often have as much religious training as a Believer, cannot speak to religious matters is propagated by "faithful" who are intellectually lazy and would rather dismiss valid argument than use their brains.
I don't need to be black to see that O'Reilly's comments were offensive, and I don't need to be Jewish to see that Anne has her head up her rear theologically.
BLR, I can't believe you took offense at somebody telling you're not credible because your beliefs are different than his.
There was no insult, only statement of the fact that you aren't perfected.
AA,
"In other words, your post is not credible becasue you are an atheist."
That's like saying that I couldn't be "credibly" outraged at something like Imus's comments, because I'm descended from the White Ape.
sorry, but that dog wont hunt....in defending herself, coulter has said that jews see jesus as a raving lunatic. she says this without offering an example. this is the ploy of the jew hater....show that jews think jesus, and therefore christians are nuts....
Bacc,
I believe it is typical Coulter. She is using hyperbole to make her point that Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Her reasoning is that if Jesus isn't the Son of God, he is delusional.
I can't speak for the Jews, but it is my understanding Jews feel Christians are in error about Jesus being the Messiah. I can see Coulter's reasoning is that if Jews think Jesus is not the Son of God, they must think he was severely delusional. Hence the lunatic comment.
So then there really isnt ANYTHING she would spew out that you wont make up an appology for is that about right?
Are you saying there isn't anyone you disagree with that you won't disparage? ;-)
"I can see Coulter's reasoning is that if Jews think Jesus is not the Son of God, they must think he was severely delusional. Hence the lunatic comment."
In other words, she's projecting what she thinks they must think about her "savior" and using that to say that she should have been offended first - when, in reality, what she's saying is that she should be offended that they haven't converted to her religion. Why do I say this?
If Jews thought Jesus was a messiah, they'd obviously have converted to Christianity. Jews do not think Jesus was a messiah, simply a nice guy (much like the muslims), so they are still Jews. Therefore, Anne projects her own suppositions into their "heads" and then tells the rest of us what they must be thinking as if it is fact. In the end, Anne is putting these words into their mouths simply because they do not share her religion.
This is an extension of the original comments that got attention in this round. Jews are not perfected. Jews must think Jesus was a lunatic, because they're not Christians. In the end, she's pulling these things out of her rear and out of her own bigotry instead of out of reality. Strike 4,912 against Anne, but it won't stop the MSM from giving her more face time in hopes those mean ol' fundies will stop calling them liberal.
Yes, just like we Jews believe that Christians despise our God, because they are clearly and inherently breaking His first 3 commandments! And it just so happens that our God IS their god, so in actuality, Christians are all blasphemous towards their own God.
</Coulter Logic>
What's your point AA? Are you a theologian? Why should we listen to anything you say on the subject of right wing theology when your fellow right winger and ratings king, Bill O'Reilly wouldn't bother listening to you.? What, are you more of a right wing theologian than Ann Coulter?
Take what you like and leave the rest. :-)
"Bernie apparently doesn't know what 'perfected' means either."
You apparently don't understand that one can understand this bogus "theological" definition of the word and still be rightfully offended at being called sub-par on national television by a prominent writer who is consistently pimped by the mainstream media.
BLR, My argument is that only by ignoring or misinterpreting the intended and theologically correct meaning of Coulter's choice of words, will one be offended. Since it has been explained what the word 'perfected' means, I see no reason for anyone to still be offended.
If you can argue how one can understand what the intended meaning of 'perfected' and still be offended, by all means, please go right ahead.
BALONEY. Your definition STILL boils down to telling them they arent as good as you and wont be until they believe the way YOU do because their beliefs an incomplete without you condescendingly explaining what they REALLY need to know to be perfected...Like Annie
AA, one can understand that the Christian theological position is that Jews are inferior theologically - why be offended? It's a theological definition, nothing to get ruffled over.
You do not get a free pass by throwing the term "theological" into the mix, no matter how much you're trying to excuse Anne's current idiocy. I'll give you points for persistence, but the argument is invalid. Saying it's theological does not give it a free pass against being bigoted. As a matter of fact, many theological stances have been bigoted across the centuries, and understanding the background does not mean one gives it a free pass.
....absolutely and that bigotry resulted in the persecution of others of different faiths or no faith. Ann's position to the tenth power resulted in the Inquisition, the holocaust , and 911. These were all atrocities rooted in the belief that the people of other faiths were inferior beings and subject to the will of those who really really believed they were the followers of the only theological truth. So it’s important to dissuade that kind of thinking. I am a Christian and I don’t believe for one minute that it makes me any better or any worse than anyone else.
AA:
If you think AC is "theologically correct," your theology is pre-Vatican II. Hell, it's somewhere around 1100. Are you a member of Opus Dei?
Yes well the worship of the Red-and-Gold Frog that jumped into my yard last week is the perfection of all religions and until you understand that you wont be perfected and will reman several rungs down the evolutionary ladder from those of us that REALLY understand. Dont be offended though just because that belief you have that has defined your life is a sad and second rate belief and will only be worthy once you understand MY religion and accept the Red and Gold frog as your real GOD.
I'm not offended. I hope you are happy when you finally croak. :-)
Doesnt matter if you are offended. YOU having a high offense threshold isnt the point. Uncle Tom had a high offense threshold too. Didnt really mean slavery wasnt offensive. The analogy IS offensive. It really isnt up to YOU to say because YOU are not offended no one else has any righ to be.
Actually it wasnt offensive because it was an analogy and no one could possibly take it seriously but it points to the very reason Annies comments WERE offensive whether you are going to admit it or not. Reality is what it is and doesnt really need your permission to become true. Its not US that need to understand anything by itself a condescending and offensive assumption. It is YOU that need to stop pretending you understand this better than we do. YOUR compulsion to appologize for ANY sewage a rightwing commentator spews out doesnt define reality for anybody. We all KNOW what perfected means.
R-r-ribit.
AA,
She did say that Christians were "perfected" Jews.
AA, Serious question. What will happen to un-converted Jews when Jesus comes back?
AA:
"Everyone, including Bernie, are free to disagree. Jews do not believe in the Triune God. I am not offended. It is simply a statement of faith."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that you, and most Christians, would be offended if an arrogant Jew went on TV and did the Chevy Chase: "We're The Chosen, and you're not."
On a side note, since our country and the NEWS MEDIA is turning fascists in my opinion, here might be the reason they continue to have her on....lol
"My libertarian friends are probably getting a little upset now but I think that's because they never appreciate the benefits of local fascism." -- Ann Coulter, MSNBC, February 8, 1997
Goldberg is quite laughable. Wasn't it a few weeks back when he rationalized Ann Coulter's remarks that the government should take away women's right to vote because by doing so, there would be no more Democratic presidents? Goldberg used Coulter's comments to buttress his theory that because newsrooms hire more minorities and women, the reporting has shifted far to the left. Now, since Coulter said something hateful, and yes, anti-Semitic, Goldberg finds her comments to be indefensible. It's okay for Coulter to trash minorities, gays and other religious groups—he even rationalized Coulter's comments in the past by saying "it's all an act to sell books"—but when she went to the Jews, that's when Goldberg took her antics personally and felt outraged that O'Reilly didn't challenge her. Maybe Goldberg now can see how it feels being in that other person's shoes when her venom was directed towards them, whether its Muslims, gays and other groups.
Then again, I feel Goldberg is as much of a hypocrite as O'Reilly.
Of course he is. He's just one more angry white putz who discovered that lying for the GOP pays better than real journalism.
Preston,Par for the course, Goldberg like many of his comrades seem incapable of feeling empathy. Ann's statement about Jews is serious to him probably because it insults him personally since according to Coulter he has not been perfected like she's been. Ann’s usual attacks aren’t directed towards him so they’re no big deal.
And I'm sure if Coulter had called the pope a "primate", O'Reilly would have ignored that, too.
Hahaha... Thanks for the laugh.
She wouldn't do that, she's a creationist. In other words:
"My grampaw wasn't no dang ape!" -Ann Coulter, Godless
Flim,
Should someone let Micsha in on the joke?
Nah... ;-)
Bill O'Reilly is a primate. Also, his epidermis is showing!
Republicans wouldn't care anyways, they're all just a bunch of hominids!
I can't say this for sure, but I heard ann often sits around the dining table with a bunch of hominids masticating. Disgusting, if true.
You mean this joke?
pri·mate [prahy-meyt or, esp. for 1, prahy-mit]
–noun 1.Ecclesiastical. an archbishop or bishop ranking first among the bishops of a province or country. 2.any of various omnivorous mammals of the order Primates, comprising the three suborders Anthropoidea (humans, great apes, gibbons, Old World monkeys, and New World monkeys), Prosimii (lemurs, loris, and their allies), and Tarsioidea (tarsiers), esp. distinguished by the use of hands, varied locomotion, and by complex flexible behavior involving a high level of social interaction and cultural adaptability. 3.Archaic. a chief or leader.Bernie stated in one of his books saying Coultergeist should be taken with a wink and a smile. Amazing how he does not take her that way on this topic. The MSM and right wing media (FNC) should quit having Coultergeist on if they don't want to deal with her sthick. But her shock value brings attention and $ to them.
Bernie is just a right wing shill. I doubt he'll say anything else about this b/c he wants to keep his gig.
O'Reilly knows Coultergeist is smarter than him (not a stretch I know) which is a reason why he did not take her on.
All this shows is that O'Reilly is just a big pussy when it comes to the Coultergeist. Nothing more, nothing less.
Check your trousers, Billy.
It was an enjoyable segment. Bernie ran over O'Reilly with the Fox Bus and then Jane backed the bus over him a couple of times. BOR was actually without words for a couple of moments.
Hey can I condemn BOR for deflating around AC? I watched Scarborough do the same thing even though the week before he had condemned her for her Donny D. remarks. Does she use AXE body spray or something that people get all giggling & weak kneed around her? I have seen her by the Fox buildings (through her massive BG's) I was weak-kneed with rage.
They must make a version of AXE that only works on Fox News pundits. I believe the scent is a blend of napalm and light, sweet crude oil.
Am I the only one who thinks this only happened because BillO wanted it to happen?
Hypocracy, thy name is O'Reilly:
From the October 15 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
I am a conservative Jew and I have to say that the comment made by Anne Coulter was pretty bad. Even if her faith believes that Jews need to be converted, she doesn't need to drink the coolaid when the message is haitful. O'Reilly clearly avoided confronting Coulter when she was on his show. I am a conservative, but I can also think for myself.
Fuey,
I think you misinterpreted Coulter. She never said her faith says Jews need to be converted.
You're right. Being as perfected as Anne obviously is is just an option. You don't have to be as good as she is - Jews can obviously live their lives as lesser individuals.
Theologically speaking, of course.
Billo has sunk even so low, even the vile Goldberg called him out. Funny but sad how right wingers causualy discard anti-Semetic and racist comments as simply "dumb". No Billo, its a lot more than that.
Wow...the right wing is getting so scared of President Hillary, they're cannibalizing each other! HOORAY!
Didn't Bill-O debate Bill Maher on atheism? I remmeber watching this. MMFA needs to find the clip and make a post about it tomorrow
He did and I saw it! MMFA action is required. How about sending that to their "Ombudsblonde" Laurie Dhue . . . HAH!
And so, too, did he discuss atheism (the follies of, obviously) with that theological expert, Kirk Cameron. Remember that one? Get a flag on that tape, as well.
This is the first time it has occurred to Goldberg that the people he's in bed with politically think he's going to hell? He should ask the Christians that work at Fox whether or not only 144,000 Jews will make it to Heaven.
Okay now how hard is it gonna be for someone to scour O'Reillys' interveiws for the hundreds of times he's challenged NON theologians who have said something negative or perceived as negative toward Christians or Catholics. "100s OF TIMES!!!!" The man gets caught and he immediately throws out the biggest whopper that can be easily checked out.
Why should K.O. have more conservatives on his show? Arent't their enough conservatives on cable already? i mean Fox or Faux News is a whole channel devoted to their point of view,not to forget the Glen Beck on CNN,Tucker Carlson on MSNBC and the countless conservative pundits that float on their pundit news program like Pat Buchanon. Whhat is underrepresented or liberal and progressive voices. Read Meida Matters own investigative reports you can find on this site! Leave K.O alone,he is a lone voice in a forrest of conservative noise! O'Reilly does not have opposing voices on without either cutting their mikes if they stand up to him or he talks over them and tries to twist their words to fit hjis warped world view. Faux is not balanced or fair, and they want to decide for us.
Coulters' words and writings no doubt will make a "perfect" deposit in:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהינום)) is the Jewish hell or purgatory. It has sometimes been described as a final punishment for the wicked and sometimes as a spiritual forge in which souls are purified after death. In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna." The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
I hate Ann. What Ann said wasn't anti-semitic by any fair interpretation within the entire context of what was said.