On Reliable Sources, Saunders repeated Plame leak distortions
SUMMARY: On CNN, San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra J. Saunders claimed that former CIA operative Valerie Plame "was not outed as part of a vendetta," adding: "It was gossip. We know where this came from, from Richard Armitage." However, Armitage was just one of several administration officials who disclosed Plame's identity to the press, and special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald, who investigated the leak, asserted that "multiple people in the White House" engaged in a "concerted action" to "discredit, punish, or seek revenge against" Wilson.
On the October 21 edition of CNN's Reliable Sources, San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra J. Saunders asserted that former CIA operative Valerie Plame "was not outed as part of a vendetta," adding: "It was gossip. We know where this came from, from Richard Armitage. He was gossiping about the fact that this guy [former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV] went to Niger because of his wife." However, as Media Matters for America has noted, while then-deputy Secretary of State Armitage may have been the first Bush administration official known to have leaked Plame's identity, he was just one of several administration officials who disclosed her identity to the press. Additionally, Saunders' claim that Plame was outed by "gossip," and not "as part of a vendetta," has been refuted by special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald, who, during his investigation into the leak, cited evidence of "a plan to discredit, punish, or seek revenge against Mr. Wilson."
Wilson was sent to Niger in 2002 by the CIA to investigate whether Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake uranium from the African country. Wilson's investigation, which was prompted by questions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, turned up no evidence that any sale had taken place and found that "it would be exceedingly difficult for Niger to transfer uranium to Iraq." After President Bush referred to Iraq's purported attempt to obtain uranium from Africa in his 2003 State of the Union address as justification for invading Iraq (the notorious "16 words"), Wilson detailed the findings of his trip in a July 6, 2003, New York Times op-ed. Eight days later, in his July 14, 2003, column, Robert D. Novak identified Plame as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction" and wrote: "Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger." Newsweek investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff and The Nation Washington editor David Corn later reported in their book Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War (Crown, September 2006) that Armitage was Novak's initial source, which Novak has confirmed. Plame's, book Fair Game: My Life as a Spy, My Betrayal by the White House (Simon & Schuster) was released on October 22.
Contrary to Saunders' suggestion on Reliable Sources, however, Armitage was not the only Bush administration official to leak Plame's identity. As Media Matters has noted, former vice presidential chief of staff I. Lewis Libby was a source of the information about Plame's CIA employment for at least two other journalists -- The New York Times' Judith Miller and Time magazine's Matthew Cooper. As journalist Murray Waas noted in his book The United States v. I. Lewis Libby (Union Square Press, June 2007), Miller testified on January 30 that Libby had disclosed Plame's CIA employment to her at a July 8, 2003, breakfast meeting at the St. Regis Hotel in Washington, D.C., six days before Novak publicly revealed it in his July 14, 2003, column, and the same day as Novak's meeting with Armitage. A Justice Department investigation into the leaks resulted in Libby's indictment and conviction on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements regarding whether he had leaked Plame's identity to reporters other than Novak. Libby's 30-month prison sentence was commuted by President Bush on July 2. Cooper, in his first-person account of his testimony before the grand jury in the leak investigation, identified former White House senior adviser Karl Rove as his original source for Plame's identity and Libby as his corroborating source.
Saunders is not the first media figure to claim that Armitage's role in the Plame affair somehow disproves the notion of a campaign by the Bush administration to undermine Plame and Wilson. In an April 6, 2006, court filing, Fitzgerald refuted allegations that there existed no plan to "discredit, punish, or seek revenge against Mr. Wilson":
Some documents produced to defendant could be characterized as reflecting a plan to discredit, punish, or seek revenge against Mr. Wilson. The government declined to produce documents relating solely to other subjects of the investigation, even if such documents could be so characterized as reflecting a possible attempt or plan to discredit or punish Mr. Wilson or Ms. Wilson. The government has no knowledge of the existence of any notes reflecting comments by former Secretary of State Powell regarding Ms. Wilson during a September 2003 meeting.
[...]
Defendant is not charged with knowingly disclosing classified information, nor is he charged with any conspiracy offense. Moreover, as a practical matter, there are no documents showing an absence of a plot, and it is unclear how any document custodian would set out to find documents showing an "absence of a plot." Indeed, there exist documents, some of which have been provided to defendant, and there were conversations in which defendant participated, that reveal a strong desire by many, including multiple people in the White House, to repudiate Mr. Wilson before and after July 14, 2003.
[...]
Defendant also asserts without elaboration that "documents that help establish that no White House-driven plot to punish Mr. Wilson caused the disclosure of Ms. Wilson's identity also constitute Brady material." Once again, defendant ignores the fact that he is not charged with participating in any conspiracy, much less one defined as a "White House-driven plot to punish Mr. Wilson." Thus, putative evidence that such a conspiracy did not exist is not Brady material. Moreover, given that there is evidence that other White House officials with whom defendant spoke prior to July14, 2003 discussed Wilson's wife's employment with the press both prior to, and after, July 14, 2003 -- which evidence has been shared with defendant -- it is hard to conceive of what evidence there could be that would disprove the existence of White House efforts to "punish" Wilson. Surely, defendant cannot claim that any document on its face that does not reflect a plot is exculpatory.
[...]
To the extent that defendant would hang his hat on the argument that another person or persons outside the White House may have discussed Wilson's wife's employment with the press prior to July 14, 2003 (for whatever reason), any such evidence would not negate evidence that multiple officials in the White House discussed her employment with reporters prior to (and after) July 14. But again the existence vel non of concerted action by White House officials is not dispositive of whether defendant committed perjury in describing what he did.
In his Nation blog, Corn rebutted claims by conservatives that Armitage's role disproved claims of a concerted effort by the Bush administration, writing "that Armitage "abetted a White House campaign under way to undermine Wilson" and that whether he deliberately leaked Plame's identity, "the public record is without question: senior White House aides wanted to use Valerie Wilson's CIA employment against her husband." Corn wrote further:
Rove confirmed the classified information to Novak and then leaked it himself as part of an effort to undermine a White House critic. Afterward, the White House falsely insisted that neither Rove nor Libby had been involved in the leak and vowed that anyone who had participated in it would be bounced from the administration. Yet when Isikoff and Newsweek in July 2005 revealed a Matt Cooper email showing that Rove had leaked to Cooper, the White House refused to acknowledge this damning evidence, declined to comment on the case, and did not dismiss Rove.
From the October 21 edition of CNN's Reliable Sources:
KURTZ: All right. Valerie Plame, this is a big TV week for the -- the former CIA operative who was outed by Bush administration officials. She is on 60 Minutes tonight in an interview with Katie Couric. She's on the Today show tomorrow morning with Meredith Vieira. She's on Larry King Live tomorrow night.
Here is an advance clip from the 60 Minutes interview in which Katie Couric asks Valerie Plame about a secret intelligence plan against Iran that came out in the press.
[begin video clip]
COURIC: Were you surprised to read about Operation Merlin in the press?
PLAME: Indeed. Mm-hmm.
COURIC: Is that problematic for the CIA?
PLAME: Leaks are always bad news.
[end video clip]
KURTZ: John Aravosis, let me read something from Valerie Plame's book. She writes, "It was the Pentagon Papers or Watergate turned on its head. These reporters were allowing themselves to be exploited by the administration and were obstructing the investigation." What do you make of that?
JOHN ARAVOSIS (AMERICAblog.com): Well, I tend to side with Valerie Plame. So I make it of it as she's correct just in the sense that we did have a lot of reporters in town who knew the story, who knew who had leaked, et cetera, who hadn't leaked. Yet, they were reporting the news, saying, "The White House today denies that so and so leaked." But they knew from the person directly that the person was basically giving the story, or didn't give the story. I just -- I think you get in a very weird situation as a reporter when you know something off the record, which is totally fair. You have to have things off the record and on the record, otherwise sources won't talk to you. But what do you do when you know the truth for real; yet, you're reporting to the public, "So and so says no." But you know it's true. I'm not sure what you do.
KURTZ: But that's precisely the point, Debra Saunders. And by the way, the reporters who were covering it as a political story, they didn't necessarily know what even their colleagues in the same newsroom knew.
ARAVOSIS: But some of the reporters did, though, who did report.
KURTZ: Well, I didn't know. But look, they were -- these reporters who didn't testify and ultimately were forced to testify -- in one case Judith Miller went to jail -- they were keeping a promise, maybe an ill-considered promise, but a promise to confidential sources that "we'll protect you."
SAUNDERS: Yeah. And somehow -- you know, it's funny, when Valerie Plame says that leaks are always bad news, I guess her husband shouldn't have been talking to Nick Kristof from The New York Times.
KURTZ: Yes, and that's a good point. Let me just take a second to explain. Before Joe Wilson, the former ambassador, decided to go public with his criticism about the Bush administration's hunt for WMDs, he talked to Nick Kristof of The New York Times without having his name be used. He was just being identified as a former ambassador, so he was getting that same protection that she would now wave away.
ARAVOSIS: But there is a difference between leaks being bad. And right, she shouldn't have made the statement that leaks are bad news. Our town, our business in journalism, works with leaks. We know that. Some leaks are actual threats to national security such as -- oh, I don't know -- outing a CIA agent because you've got a vendetta against her. You don't destroy a CIA -- I worked in the government. I had a security clearance. The one thing I knew was, CIA agents, you didn't talk about who they were; you didn't talk about what they told you. Everybody in this town knows you don't out CIA agents. It's a serious thing.
I mean, that gets into the whole other issue, but it's a serious problem.
SAUNDERS: You know, it is a serious thing. And the Bushies were incredibly immature to decide that they -- by the way, she was not outed as part of a vendetta. It was gossip. We know where this came from, from Richard Armitage. He was gossiping about the fact that this guy went to Niger because of his wife. Now, if they had been more mature, they would have thought about the consequences, and they should not have done what they did. But this whole "leaks are always bad" that Valerie Plame is talking about, let's just remember how this all started. It started from a leak from people who were out to discredit George Bush. And of course, we have this double standard where it is OK for people to leak on that side, but when the Bushies do it, there's something nefarious about it.
ARAVOSIS: Well, it started with George Bush's 16 famous words that we had nuclear weapons being built in Iraq, because they were coming from Niger or whatever it was. I mean, we can get into that issue.
KURTZ: I thought we heard the end of this story, but obviously, with Valerie Plame's book coming out and all those TV interviews lined up, we'll be arguing about this for a little while longer.















It was gossip; it was a vendetta; it was criminal; it was treasonous.
Fitzgerald's investigation also exposed some of the incestuous relationships between the Bushies and the Washington press corps.
I still do not understand why Karl Rove and Robert Novak were never charged with treason.
Mainly because you have to commit treason before being charged with and convicted of treason.
Mainly because you have to commit treason before being charged with and convicted of treason.
Well obvioulsy that is not true because Scooter Libby, Karl Rove and Robert Novak are free. The corrupt Bush administration will do anything to discredit people who speak against them.
Where is the evidence that supports your contention that they committed treason?
When you "out" a covert CIA Agent, that is treason. And I am not the only one who agrees
Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."-- George Herbert Walker Bush, 1999
No evidence that Plame was undercover was ever presented. Therefore, there is no evidence that Plame's undercover status was outed. In fact, if you read Novak's original column, he notes that the CIA confirmed that Plame was an employee. If she truly had been undercover, the logical response from the CIA would be, "We have no record of a Valerie Plame working for the CIA."
>>No evidence that Plame was undercover was ever presented.
Factually inaccurate.
Where's the evidence? All the public got concerning that was a vague statement from Fitzgerald.
No it isnt, that may be the talking point but it is completely inaccurate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/01/us/01plame.html
On Friday, the special prosecutor in the case, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, submitted an unclassified summary of Ms. Wilson’s “C.I.A. employment and cover history” to the judge who will sentence Mr. Libby.
It was limited to the four years starting in 2002. In the summary, the agency said it chose to make information about Ms. Wilson’s service public to aid Mr. Fitzgerald, but it did not say why it selected 2002 as its cutoff. A trip undertaken for the C.I.A. in February 2002 by Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former diplomat and Ms. Wilson’s husband, has been the subject of intense scrutiny.
The summary said that Ms. Wilson was a covert C.I.A. employee at the time of Mr. Novak’s disclosure. Between the beginning of 2002 and Ms. Wilson’s resignation from the agency at the end of 2005, the summary said, she traveled overseas “under a cover identity, sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias” at least “seven times to more than 10 countries.”
How many times do we have to tell you that just because Rush TELLS you to believe something doesnt mean its true.
Uh, the CIA HAS SAID she was under "Non-Official Cover".
Just answer me ONE QUESTION. If She was not a covert agent, WHY DID THE CIA REFER THE MATTER TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR INVESTIGATION?
Until you can provide a sensible answer for that, the rest of your right-wing talking points are built on a foundation of bulls**t.
Embarrassment, meet KOOLAIDKID.
Tell us why no one was ever charged with outing a covert CIA officer. The reason is that Plame was not covert.
You can out a covert CIA agent without it being a crime (in my book it's still treason). Read Fitzgerald's sentencing memo (pages 2 & 3) for Scooter Libby. He explains why no one was charged.
WHY was it even referred to the Justice Department for investigation if she was not covert? You still have not answered that question. Regardless of whether there was a conviction, the CIA asked the Justice Department to investigate the outing of a covert agent. There is simply NO WAY you can argue with that.
That has already been explained, dozens of times, by us, by Fitzgerald, by a plethora of people. If you are just comitted to repeating the lies and dont care beans about reality why should we waste our time with you?
No one was charged because Fitzgerald was unable to get to the bottom of the whole sorry, sordid affair because some OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE. Does the name Scooter Libby ring a bell?
Kozaid, you are not being truthful and you are not seriously wishing to discuss this matter.
I'm being truthful. However, you moonbats can't handle the truth.
You've presented a lot of misinformation here.
No you are either a liar or a brainwashed moron who is too uninformed to be taken seriously. The CIA unclassified her job summary and gave it to Congress and it made ABSOLUTLY CLEAR and with no reasonable dispute that she WAS covert. Moron.
Yes there was. The CIA put into the official Congressional record her OFFICIAL job summary which stated DIRECTLY that she WAS covert and had travelled internationally under NOC cover as recently as the year before she was exposed. You are repeating a hivemind talking point LONG AGO DEBUNKED.
I'll (grudgingly) defend Novak - he reported what he was given. But ROve, Armitage, Libby, Cheney and everyone who was complicit should all be charged - ONCE W IS OUT OF THE WH!
Let the trials begin once there a Dem in the WH. That way - NO PARDONS FOR THE TREASONOUS B@ST@RDS!!!!
Now, if they had been more mature, they would have thought about the consequences,
Well D'OH, like invading Iraq, and etc, and etc, and etc,.
MMFA is being dishonest on this item.
"Wilson's investigation, which was prompted by questions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, turned up no evidence that any sale had taken place and found that 'it would be exceedingly difficult for Niger to transfer uranium to Iraq.'"
According to the Washington Post, "The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html
NBC's Andrea Mitchell also stated in 2003 that Plame's employment with the CIA was common knowledge in Washington.
MMFA and other liberal groups also fail to note that Joe Wilson himself argued prior to the invasion that Saddam had WMD.
the washington post admitted that they had drunk the bush koolaid on wmd. and the "panel" would be the republican-led senate intelligence committee. give me one person who knew plame was undercover before novak's column.
and i don't mean some consultant for fox.
Hey MEFIRST (no pun intended), I don't believe KOOLAIDKID was around this site during all the Plame-bashing. He's not aware that every bit of that right-wing crap was thoroughly DEBUNKED long ago. He actually thinks he's schoolin' us up here.
Hey KOOLAID, go to the home page and look at the just posted archival posts dealing with all facets of the treasoness CIA agent OUTING for political payback. Maybe you'll actually LEARN something.
Oh, and just for the record, we've heard every one of your idiotic right-wing talking points about this issue, so stop wasting your time. You'll just embarrass yourself. Again.
I just said that Joe Wilson himself argued prior to the invasion that Saddam had WMD. Plame worked in the area of WMD proliferation at the CIA. It appears that Plame was one of those at the CIA that got the intelligence wrong about Iraq. Maybe we should be celebrating the fact that she is no longer at the CIA.
no, plame specialized in intelligence about iran. see link.
http://mediaconcepts.blogspot.com/2006/05/plame-game-update.html
You need to read things more closely. Your link said she spcialized in Iran. However, her overall specialty was WMD. How do you think she got involved with the Niger case? Niger is a long way from Iran.
so is seattle. if she knew what was going on in niger, she would have given her report, no?
What are you? Four foot tall? There is no way that point should have gone over your head unless you're deliberately acting stupid.
you said she got the intelligence wrong about "iraq". your proof, other than conjecture, is what?
She got involved in the Niger case when the bush (lowercase intentional) administration committed treason by outing her identity and covert status. She DID NOT send her husband to Niger. She DID NOT recommend that he be sent. The CIA asked him to go because he was the perfect guy for the job.
BTW, your frustration (and lack of intelligence) is showing by calling people names.
Your chronology is way off. Wilson went to Niger long before Novak published his column. Wilson was recommended by his wife:
"Former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, dispatched by the CIA in February 2002 to investigate reports that Iraq sought to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program with uranium from Africa, was specifically recommended for the mission by his wife, a CIA employee, contrary to what he has said publicly. " [link to www.washingtonpost.com]
What is your proof of that? He says she didn't. She says she didn't. The CIA says she didn't. Oh wait, Rush Limbaugh said she did. There you have it.
BTW, just because the Washington Post says something doesn't make it true.
Thats an anonymous claim. What the CIA says OFFICIALLY is that she did NOT recommend him rather that she was ASKED by a superior if he would be a good choice and said he would be and was then instructed to write up a memo saying why. Not that is in ANY way relevant. What is the point about WHO recommended him for an unpaid junket to Niger. Is anyone cliaming that they cant wait to experience the nightlife in Niamey? This wasnt Jamaica. He wasnt paid. He had done this same kind of investigation for the CIA before, knew the people involved AND the area. He was quaified and it was a thankless job without pay.
So now Valerie Plame is the one responsible for erroneously telling the administration that Iraq had WMD's? You people will say anything that burps out of your anal cavity, won't ya?
You have to consider tha possibility. The years that Plame worked on WMD proliferation were the very same years that the CIA said Iraq had WMD. Also, Joe Wilson claimed prior to the invasion that Iraq had WMD and would use them if we invaded. If Plame did not believe Iraq had WMD, wouldn't she have advised him not to make such claims?
Her area of expertise was IRAN (Gee, I'll bet THAT would come in handy right about now). MEFIRST provided a link a few posts back that may be of interest to you
I addressed that link and pointed out that he didn't read it closely enough.
i did read it. i did not see it say anything about her getting any intelligence against iraq wrong. i know, iraq, iran, they look a lot alike, huh?
"Joe Wilson claimed prior to the invasion that Iraq had WMD and would use them if we invaded."
Uhhh, prior to the invasion...? How prior? Like back when Saddam gassed the Kurds and the Shia? More relevant is what did the intelligence community say just prior to the invasion in 2003.
And to what WMD exactly do you refer? Chemical weapons? That's an entirely different matter from the alleged but absent nuclear threat that Bush scared the bejeesus out of us with.
You must be diizy, Koolaid, from all that spinning you're doing.
No, Wilson claimed that Iraq had WMD during the months leading up to the invasion. I'm not surprise you're not aware with that. The liberal media never report that fact.
Link please? Until then, I don't believe you.
They're not hard to find. Wilson's columns are on his own web site: [link to www.politicsoftruth.com] [link to www.politicsoftruth.com]
These editorials both prove that Wilson believed Iraq had WMD AND that he was a Bush critic BEFORE Novak wrote his column. The left-wing media won't tell you moonbats that.
Wilson was referring to chemical weapons that Saddam, if he still had them (which he apparently didn't), could have used against American troops if we invaded Iraq (which we did, and Saddam didn't use chemical weapons). What brought us into the war was not the prospect of Saddam having chemical weapons...it was nuclear weapons, or the prospect of having them shortly , that was of concern. Koolaid, you are conflating chemical weapons with nuclear weapons when you speak of WMD...a common tactic among deceitful right wing war mongers.
So, all of a sudden, WMD means only nuclear. Wow, that certainly takes a load off my mind. The Army is destroying Sarin, Mustard, VX shells about 50 miles from here and we were all concerned about what a leak might do. But they are not WDM, so I guess we are safe. I'll alert the authorities that they can take down all the warning systems that have been in place the last several years and are scheduled to be in place for several more. Think of the $$ we will save on maintenance and operation there!
You're ignorant. WMD refers to nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
The Bush administration never claimed that Saddam had nuclear weapons--it said that was a likelihood in the future. Both Kay and Duelfer concluded that Saddam had plans to resume his nuclear program once sanctions were lifted. Remember, Saddam was just six months from having a nuclear weapon when the first Gulf War occurred. His scientists and engineers certainly did not forgot how to make one during the the 12 years that followed that war.
Uhhh, let's see... Bush said that Saddam had recently attempted to acquire yellowcake from Niger. He had Colin Powell say that Iraq acquired aluminum tubes for use in a nuclear centrifuge. Bush said confirmation may come in the form of a mushroom cloud. Hmmmm...sounds like a nuclear threat to me.
Do you idiots believe that we went to war with Iraq because Saddam may have had chemical weapons left over from the Gulf War? Gimme a break...
The Bush administration was concerned of a future threat of a nuclear-armed Iraq, just as the Clinton administration was. Read Kenneth Pollack's "The Threatening Storm."
Screw that, Koolaid... Bush was trying to scare us all into believing that Saddam was armed and loaded and that his finger was on the trigger. That's quite different than the prospect of some risk further in the future. Bush's message was that we had to act now against Saddam or we'd wake up to amushroom cloud. You are trying to rewrite history and you're not doing a very good job at it. Go sell your bull to some dumb rednecks who don't know any better.
Remember, Saddam was just six months from having a nuclear weapon when the first Gulf War occurred.
He was six months away in 1991. How far away was he in 2003?
His scientists and engineers certainly did not forgot how to make one during the the 12 years that followed that war.
Apparently they did because nothing happened.
And you can search the "internets" for info on nuclear technology.
According to Kenneth Pollack in "The Threatening Storm," German intelligence in 2001 concluded that Iraq was less than six years from having a nuclear weapon.
As far as capability, Iraq claimed that it had no WMD in early 1998. That led Glenn E. Schweitzer and Carole Dorsch Schweitzer to make the following observation:Even if the Iraqis were honest in their contentions that they have destroyed all biological weapons, the country’s capabilities to restart, at any given moment, their dormant programs within a matter of months or to assist other countries or terrorist groups to launch bioattacks are substantial. The most important resource, Iraqi scientists and engineers, is still in Iraq.[1] The Schweitzers also noted that an American weapons design expert who participated in UN inspections of Iraq’s nuclear capabilities following Operation Desert Storm noted that Saddam would have had a nuclear weapon if he had delayed his invasion of Kuwait by six months.Commenting on Iraq’s future capabilities, the expert recalled his encounter with Iraqi weapons designers: When the UN team expressed doubt that the Iraqi engineers had really destroyed their metallic molds for shaping a critical component of a nuclear warhead as required by the UN resolution, the Iraqi replied that they certainly had destroyed the molds. However, the Iraqis added that if the foreign inspectors would feel better, Iraqi engineers would quickly produce more molds and let the inspectors witness their destruction as well.[2] When David Kay, who originally headed the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) delivered his Interim Progress Report to Congress in October 2003, he indicated that Saddam had never given up his desire to have nuclear weapons: With regard to Iraq's nuclear program, the testimony we have obtained from Iraqi scientists and senior government officials should clear up any doubts about whether Saddam still wanted to obtain nuclear weapons. They have told ISG that Saddam Husayn remained firmly committed to acquiring nuclear weapons. These officials assert that Saddam would have resumed nuclear weapons development at some future point. Some indicated a resumption after Iraq was free of sanctions.[3] Charles Duelfer, who replaced Kay, came to a similar conclusion a year later. According to The Washington Post, Duelfer’s report concluded that Saddam “’aspired to develop a nuclear capability’ and intended to work on rebuilding chemical and biological weapons after persuading the United Nations to lift sanctions.”[4][1] A Faceless Enemy” The Origins of Modern Terrorism, p. 118.
[2] Ibid, p. 67.
[3] [link to www.cnn.com] id="ftn4">
[4] [link to www.washingtonpost.com]
Six years after what? Iraq was impotent to do anything with a nuclear program so long as sanctions were in place. The extent of Iraq's nuclear program were plans in a safe. Way back in the 90s Iraq may have been six years away, but that was before they dismantled everything and the inspectors arrived. Koolaid, give up...go sell your bull to stupid rednecks. We are well-informed people here.
Irony notice how in the space of maybe 3 or 4 posts Komakid went from Hussein would have nukes in 6 months to Hussein would have nukes in 6 years. Damn they can't even keep their own lies straight.
Tenet said Saddam was five to seven years away from a nuclear weapon [if Saddam actually pursued that route] and you find stuff that says he was ten years away [if he pursued the nuclear route].
We have to consider the possibility that Martians Rove got the CIA to break into the Niger Embassy in Rome and MADE the forged documents in the first place, and I have just as much evidence of that as you do of the bilge you just spewed.
Wilson said that the Niger claim was not plausible but that he thought SH had other WMD's. Rather than accpet the oped as supportive the WH started releasing the information about his wife to discredit him. Why? Wilson used the idea that Bush was misleading on the nuclear issue.
Wilson was wrong. Both Kay and Duelfer concluded that Saddam intended to resume his nuclear program once sanctions were lifted. Of the five permanent members of the UNSC, only the US in 2001 wanted to continue the stringent sanctions regime. France was already violated that regime in 2000.
Saddam's nuclear program consisted of plans in a safe. Yet Bush told us to be wary of confirmation of Iraq's nuclear capability in the form of a mushroom cloud. What a f-ing liar....
Wilson was wrong. Both Kay and Duelfer concluded that Saddam intended to resume his nuclear program once sanctions were lifted.
If Saddam did something like that, we would have noticed.
How so? We had no idea that Saddam was six months away from having a nuclear weapon in 1991. Also, we didn't know that Pakistan had a nuclear weapon until it tested one.
Because we werent looking we knew immediatly when North Korea began enriching uranium because it is virtually impossible to hide when you ARE looking and we were. What are the chances we were just going to forget about Saddam?
How so? We had no idea that Saddam was six months away from having a nuclear weapon in 1991.
At that time Saddam was our guy so we weren't as attentive to what he was doing. And how do you or I know he was six months away? This sounds like pure conjecture, assumption or perhaps conspiracy theory.
Actually the IAEA said the same thing that in 91 Iraq was about six months away. What that has to do with 2003 I dont know.
We wasn't referring to the present. If he were, he would have called Iraq an "imminent threat" in his 2003 SOTU address instead of a "gathering threat."
LOL... Gathering threat versus imminent threat? Please...I'm laughing too hard.
Wilson was NOT wrong that the Niger claim was implausable. He was absolutly correct about that. So what is your claim that we had to go to war with Iraq because he had DREAMS of WMDs? What are the chances the world was going to FORGET about Saddam? Notice the MAJORITY of the UNSC was against the invasion of Iraq.
A majority of the UNSC was also against Operation Desert Fox. That didn't stop Clinton and Blair from launching a preemptive attack on Iraq in 1998.
That is NOT an invasion. Hundreds of thousands of people were NOT killed nor were thousands of our troops.
Show me where the Washington Post offered a correction for the article I just linked to.
what correction would that be? they reported what the republican-led senate intelligence committee said. you failed to note that's who the "panel" was. and i asked you to give me one person who knew plame was undercover. i'm waiting.
Did Jay Rockefeller or any of the Democrats on the same panel protest to the panel's findings concerning Wilson's lies? Note that the John Kerry camaign dropped their Wilson-related web site, www.RestoredHonesty.com, immediately after the panel's findings were released.
As far as Plame's alleged undercover status, Larry Johnson claims he knew she was undercover. It's an odd claim since he left the CIA in 1989 and had no "right to know" Plame's status. I think it's pretty clear that any undercover status Plame had ended after she married a well-known ambassador and moved to Virginia. After all, no undercover agent would drive to Langley day after day for five years.
You're embarrassing yourself. I warned ya.
Translation: I can't respond to that, so I'm just going to say you have embarrassed yourself and slither away.
since johnson was in the cia with her, he knew she was with the agency. duh. and according to this link, johnson claimed in 2003 that her outing did massive damage and could have gotten people killed.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1011-01.htm
These points continue to go over your head, don't they. One more time: Johnson left the CIA in 1989 and, thus, did not have the "right to know" concerning Plame's status at the CIA in 2003.
going over my head? you said that andrea mitchell said her cia status was "common knowledge in washington", and i asked you for the name of someone who knew before novak's column, and you give me a guy who trained with her at the cia.
Apparently, Mitchell did.
andrea mitchell later withdrew her remarks about plame's status being "common knowledge", which was by the way a big fox talking point after plame was outed. how come none of the reporters told by cheney and rove, including novak, knew?
It's hard to argue with a fool.
Go back and read the post where I asked you to answer ONE QUESTION for me.
He's right you are embarassing yourself. You obviously dont know anything about the CIA, in short sure they would. Lots of people go to Langley for lots of reasons and its a company town. I tell you what why dont YOU go to Langley, sit outside the entrance to CIA HQ and take some photos of cars coming and going and see how fast you are in a dim room with a bright light and perhaps a waterboard answering pointed questions put to you by a pair of Virginia Farmboys
While I think it well established that she was undercover, lets humor you and assume arguendo that she was not. Did any of the leakers ever claim that they had checked first and determined that it was safe to reveal her identity to the press? I am sure that if they had it would have been trumpeted at once as a defense. they did not. These were all high ranking members of Bush's administration. Bush had always claimed that any leaking of intelligence information was dangerous to our safety(like when it leaked that he was violating FISA). Why didn't any of these people in responsible positions check first to determine if they might be revealing say a front company before they repeatedly blabbed. Having found out that these men had been so reckless with this information why would Bush keep them on staff? Your dog just doesnt hunt. The explanation that best addresses the evidence is that Bush/Cheney were behind the leaks and that they are conning us about their war on terror. It is just a device to power.
An interesting side note is that there has never been an official investigation into the forged Niger "yellowcake" document. It has been clearly established that the document was a forgery, but the interesting question is why was there a forged document purporting to establish a connection between Saddam and the purchase of yellowcake from Niger. In effect, who would have a motive to create the impression that Saddam had acquired yellowcake.
A name that has surfaced is Michael Ledeen, a "scholar" at the American Enterprise Institute. Ledeen has a CIA backround and was reportedly friendly with the Italian intelligence service. About two weeks before Bush took office the Niger consul's office in Italy was burglarized and stationary was stolen. Ledeen was reportedly friendly with the office manager of the consul and in Italy at the time. Ledeen then went to work for the administration when Bush took office.
I'm not suggesting that this proves anything but it certainly makes one wonder...
An interesting synopsis from The American Conservative magazine...
http://amconmag.newsstand.com/?NSEMC=AMRAMRADV20040315001
I once took a course from Michal Ledeen in Student Youth Movements. That was the year of Kent State and I got an incomplete because I went off during finals to observe a student youth movement that was happening a few feet away. He then left and I ended up with a permanent incomplete from Ledeen in student youth movements. His main claim to fame then was that he was Omar Shariff's bridge partner. You are right in very braod sense in many ways this story has always been covered in a way that avoids the real issues. Like the one you raise and like the question of why no cabinet level leaker checked first when revealing the id of a cia employee. We are being led to miss the important questions.
According to the Washington Post, "The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts."
There were conflicting opinions among different agencies about Wilson's report and the Washington Post never reported that. The INR (Bureau of Intelligence and Research) said the report had confirmed their suspicion that the claim was "highly suspect". And before the SOTU speech a fax was sent to the National Security Council (Rice) by the CIA stating that the evidence was weak because Iraq already had large stockpiles of uranium. Furthermore, the claim should have been dropped once the purported receipt turned out to be a forgery."There were conflicting opinions among different agencies about Wilson's report..."
The CIA rated Wilson's report "good". It didn't add much new information, probabaly because there wasn't much additional intelligence to be found, but he did his job competently and professionally
No they arent. That statement was based on the claim by the foriegn minister of Niger that Iraq wanted trade talks and he ASSUMED they were about uranium, they simply ignored the FACT that those trade talks HAPPENED and the same minister said Iraq NEVER BROUGHT UP URANIUM. Now if you had been even minimally informed on the issue you would know this. Wilson was right. The CIA had made Bush take the SAME CLAIM out of his Cincinatti speach the month before and everyone but the British Intelligence KNOWS there isnt the slightest evidence this is true and is practically impossible.
About those 16 words:
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
oh yeah, the "butler report". a guy appointed by tony blair finds nothing wrong with the british intelligence. at least, blair didn't ask his mom to conduct the investigation.
You moonbats are like sloths drawn to a Plame.
kozakid,
Stay with'em kid...you're more than holding your own.
i think that's the problem with the two of you. a little too much holding your own.
If by that you mean he is dutifully and stubbornly regurgitating long ago debunked hivemind talking points, sure. If you mean he is making cogent arguments you are as delusional as he is.
Which part(s) of the FactCheck.org item has been debunked?
The very first line. Bush did NOT have good reason to belive it was true since the CIA made him take the SAME ACCUSATION out of his Cincinatti speech a month earlier and ONLY aquiesced with it going into HIS speech if it was attributed to British Intelligence. NOW it might be technically correct to say he had good reason to say BRITISH INTELLIGENCE says, he didnt however have good reason to believe the CLAIM itself was true. The CIA didnt believe it. Also FACTCHECK was selective in their facts supporting the claim. For instance they said some of Wilsons report had the CIA say it supported the allegation. THAT was the Niger Trade minister saying that Iraq wanted to have trade talks and he ASSUMED it was about uranium. What they left out was that LATER they had those talks and the SAME MINISTER said Uranium wasnt even mentioned. They left out the FACT that since then we found in Baghdad a memo where the Congo (one of the four African countries that have a uranium trade) OFFERED to sell Iraq uranium and THEY REFUSED. Saying they were being watched too close. They didnt mention that Niger doesnt CONTROL their uranium, that an internaional consortium controls it from mining through shipping and it would be pretty hard for Niger to cough up any uranium even if they wanted to. They didnt mention Iraq already HAD 500 tons of uranium oxide. In short they cherry picked a few half facts and left out all the reasons no one in their right minds still believes this malarkey
FactCheck.org's item has stood un-debunked for several years. You came nowhere near debunking it. You moonbats have to admit that Saddam Hussein never gave up his desire to have nuclear weapons. Both Kay and Duelfer concluded that Saddam intended to resume his nuclear program after sanctions were lifted. They even found evidence that Saddam had grown impatient with sanctions and started looking into a reconstituted nuclear program prior to the invasion.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/
"Saddam Hussein never gave up his desire to have nuclear weapons."
Duh...! So, Koolaid, we invaded Iraq at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives because Saddam Hussein never gave up his desire for nuclear weapons. Smart move...really, really smart.
Har. Irony, along with Saddam's "desire", we also acted on what he "intended", as well as what he had "grown impatient" with, and what he was "looking into".Did the CIA have a mood ring hooked up to the guy?
It sounds like a pretty solid case could be built on saddam's "feelings".I guess that's an important part of belonging to the 30%ers, ignoring reality, and running on pure emotion.
HBL, Bush was getting bad vibes from Saddam...that's why we invaded Iraq. Really bad vibes, man...Bush could feel it. ;>)
There is NO QUESTION that the CIA TOLD Bush to take the accusation out of his Cincinatti speech a month before the SOTU. In fact all of the FACTS I cited are easily available just not from the Oxymoron. I DID debunk its claim. No reasonable argument came from you about ANY of the points I made. Just a worthless baseless assertion. Baloney. If you were minimally informed on this issue you would know all the things I cited. Every one of which I have posted links to in the past. You WISH I hadnt debunked it but to anyone that can READ I did. As for Saddam, what he DREAMPT of really isnt relevant to whether he TRIED to get uranium fron Niger. The FACTS are he KNEW he couldnt use it. THAT is why he didnt use the uranium HE ALREADY HAD. That is why he told the Congo he didnt want to buy any from THEM. You have been spanked here koza. Its that simple the preponderance of evidence that no such transaction ever happened far surpasses your, But Saddam WISHES he could get Nuclear Weapons. I am sure he WISHED he could be the King of England too. Doesnt mean much in the scheme of things.
You are so stupid it is embrassing. Whatever that site says it doesnt CHANGE THE FACT that the CIA had made Bush take the SAME ACCUSATION out of the speech in Cincinatti a month earlier NOR that they wouldnt sign off on it being in THAT speech until it was attributed to British intelligence. NOR that they ADMITTED it shouldnt have been in the speech, OR that Niger doesnt even CONTROL their uranium it is controlle from mining to shipping at the port by an international consortium. Niger couldnt sell Iraq uranium if they tried. NOR that Iraq already HAS 500 tons of yellowcake. Nor that the Congo OFFERED to sell Iraq uranium and THEY TURNED THEM DOWN. The story is garbage, the only reason to belive it is you WISH it were true.
We don't go by British intelligence; we go by U.S. intelligence.And if you actually read the Butler Report, the case for Saddam trying to obtain uranium was built on a bunch of assumptions and that's why our intelligence agencies could not endorse it.
Good thing too. Would that be the SAME British Intelligence that submitted a white paper on Iraq that turned out to be plagerized from an 11 year old students thesis including the misspellings? Why yes it would.
"Good thing too. Would that be the SAME British Intelligence that submitted a white paper on Iraq that turned out to be plagerized from an 11 year old students thesis including the misspellings? Why yes it would."
Plagerized? Were you one of the students?
You know you FINALLY made a valid observation. Yes I am a poor speller. I admit it. I throw myself on the mercy of the court.
You need to read the FactCheck.org item. It wasn't just British intelligence.
Who else was it, Koolaid, the Italians... whose intelligence services were probably involved in creating the forged Niger documents?
No, our own intelligence.
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
NO not from OUR intelligence the CIA didnt believe it
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56336-2003Jul14?language=printer
Bush's position was at odds with those of his own aides, who acknowledged over the weekend that the CIA raised doubts that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger more than four months before Bush's speech.
The president's remarks yesterday came as evidence emerged that the administration had information that seemed to guarantee that Iraq probably could not acquire nuclear material from Niger. A four-star general, who was asked to go to Niger last year to inquire about the security of Niger's uranium, told The Washington Post yesterday that he came away convinced the country's stocks were secure. The findings of Marine Gen. Carlton W. Fulford Jr. were passed up to Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- though it was unclear whether they reached officials in the White House.
A spokesman for Myers said last night that the general has "no recollection of the information" but did not doubt that it had been forwarded to him. "Given the time frame of 16 months ago, information concerning Iraq not obtaining uranium from Niger would not have been as pressing as other subjects," said Capt. Frank Thorp, the chairman's spokesman.
In an interview, Fulford said he came away "assured" that the supply of "yellowcake" was kept secure by a French consortium. Both Fulford, then deputy commander of the U.S. European Command and his commander, Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston, said the issue did not surface again, although they were both routinely briefed on weapons proliferation in Africa. "I was convinced it was not an issue," Fulford said.
Fulford was asked by the U.S. ambassador to Niger, BarbroOwens-Kirkpatrick, to join her at the meeting with Niger's President Mamadou Tandja on Feb. 24, 2002. "I was asked to impress upon the president the importance that the yellowcake in Niger be under control," Fulford said. "I did that. He assured me. He said the mining operations were handled through a French consortium" and therefore out of the Niger government's control. Owens-Kirkpatrick, reached by phone, declined to comment.
You can keep telling us about this ONE article, it wont erase the FACT that the CIA had this taken out of a speech in Cincinatti, it wont erase the FACT that Niger doesnt control its uranium. It wont erase the FACT that Iraq already HAD uranium. Itwont erase the FACT that Iraq refused an offer from the Congo to sell them uranium. It wont make this nonsense any more credible.
Again, we go by U.S. intelligence and other intelligence that has been substantiated by our agencies.
WESLEY:
Thank you. The main drawback I have here is that I am constrained by the facts, while the moonbats can simply make it up as they go or parrot discredited MMFA talking points.
"The main drawback I have here is that I am constrained by the facts..."
Koolaid, I'd say at least that part of your statement is correct. But don't feel bad, all your right wing heroes suffer the same problem.
Yeah, I always feel liberated by facts.I guess they can feel pretty constraining when you're trying to plow through them to get to your lies.
No the main problem you have is you are ignorantly repeating long ago debunked nonsense with NO FACTS IN SIGHT. The problem you have is you are ignorant and ONLY believe what the Oxymoron TOLD you to believe.
MMfa dosn't have talking points, they have evidence from the sources. We read the sources, you don't. You and Wesley can continue to fool yourselves, we'll continue to bat you down.
If you've got the strength, go over to firedoglake, Ms. Wilson was recently the subject of a few threads recently. Don't try to post over there though, they don't really get into arguments over there and have monitors to clear out statements such as the type of posts you've done on this site.
Come to that, a continuing question that an experienced wingnut like yourself might have an answer for. Where is a conservative site that will allow the type of aguing that we get into over here?
Don't hold your breath EWESTON, they don't exist. I tried posting resonable arguments and counter points and got botted off for my efforts. Also insulted and denigrated to a degree that I have never experinced. Really something.
Many here have had a go at holding their breath. Some interesting colors occurred, but little else. Maybe someday.
KOOLAID...YOU'RE NOT TELLING THE WHOLE STORY.
Koolaid cites Susan Scmidt's article in the Washington Post as though it was conclusive proof that Joe Wilson was impeached by the report of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Here is the article Koolaid cites:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html
What Koolaid doesn't say is that in the article Scmidt is mostly quoting not the Intelligence Committe's bipartisan report, but a partisan addendum to the report written by Republican Chairman Pat Roberts and two other Republicans. Here is the addendum, entitled Additional Views:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_pat-roberts.htm
What Koolaid also doesn't tell you is that by many accounts Sen. Pat Roberts was essentially an extension of the White House team that sold the Iraq war and that he was also part of the team that stiffled any dissent. Here is a two part article summarizing Roberts' role:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_pat-roberts.htm
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Through_leaks_and_smears_Senate_chairman_protects_White_House_to_blame_CI_0811.html
Considering what we now know about the White House efforts to sculpt intelligence to fit its pro-war agenda and the manner in which it stifled dissent, the integrity and motives of Sen. Roberts partisan addendum to the Intelligence Committe report are clearly questionable.
Before you accuse others of dishonesty, Koolaid, perhaps you should endeavor to honestly inform rather than engage in right wing distortion.
Nice work, IRONY. But then, none of this is really news to us, the informed, the reasonable. As I said to KOOLAIDKID back on the first page, we've heard all their bulls**t right-wing lies and we are not impressed by their efforts.
I don't think Koolaid has yet realized that he is dealing with knowledgable people here who have taken the time to learn for themselves what brought us into Iraq and who are conversant in all the details.
Given that the intelligence regarding Iraq was essentially the same as what the Clinton administration had, how did the Bush administration sculpt it?
“The intelligence from Bush 1 to Clinton to Bush 2 was consistent.” – Sen. Hillary Clinton, September 24, 2003[1] “Because what happened was the information that we got on the intelligence committee was, was relatively consistent with what I was getting from former Clinton administration officials.” – John Edwards, February 4, 2007[2][1] [link to weeklystandard.com] id="ftn2">
[2] [link to www.msnbc.msn.com]
"...how did the Bush administration sculpt it?"
Ahhh, let's start with Curveball and work our way to the aluminum tubes... just for starters.
Koolaid, for your sake I really hope you're just spinning right wing crap because I'd feel sorry for you if you were actually this stupid and gullible.
Again, Hillary Clinton and John Edwards both said the intelligence was consistent from the Clinton to Bush 43 administrations. Are they lying?
Intelligence consistent? Perhaps, in a sense it was. And everyone was keeping their eye on Saddam. However, it wasn't until George W. that anyone said Saddam was trying to get yellowcake from Niger and taking delivery of aluminum tubes...all implying that Saddam was further along than he was. The Niger yellowcake story was false and the aluminum tubes were not for uranium enrichment. All of that was bogus...and those were new elements added by the war hungry duo of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney along with their merry band of neocons. Don't try to twist what Edwards and Clinton said to argue that the intelligence was exactly the same in 2003 as it was in 1993.
Well there were the outright baldfaced specific LIES the administration told about the aluminum tubes and an IAEA report Bush pulled directly out of his ass.
kozakid1769 claims that:
Ms. Plame's covert status with the CIA prior to her outing is now a matter of public record. In court documents provided by the CIA (see http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2007/05/30/plame/index1.html for the pdf file of the CIA document confirming Ms. Plame's covert status to the court) and Mr. Fitzgerald, her former covert status with the CIA has been unequivocally established. In recommending that Mr. Libby be sentenced to prison, Mr. Fitzgerald wrote to the court:
In confirming Ms. Plame's previously covert status with the agency, the CIA declassified Plame's employment status because "public interest ... outweighed the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from the official disclosure of [Plame's] employment and cover status" as her cover had already been blown by the leak. It was in fact the CIA that asked the Justice Department to investigate the leak because the covert status of one of its employees had been compromised by the leak.
This is officially another UNDEAD hivemind talking point. It makes no difference how often or completely it is destroyed and debunked they will slink away and say it again the next time their Pavlovian response is tickled. There simply is no way to drive a stake through its heart because they dont CARE about truth, facst or REALITY. They ONLY care about the propaganda value of it. Since it NEEDS to be true for propaganda purposes it is true for that reason alone and no amount of showing that in the REALITY based universe it is FALSE will stop them from repeating it.
They STILL haven't answered my question. IF PLAME WAS NOT A COVERT AGENT, WHY DID THE CIA ASK THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO INVESTIGATE HER OUTING BY THE MISERABLE, TRAITOROUS SCUM IN THE bush (lowercase intentional) ADMINISTRATION?
Yeeaah, that question has been asked a hundred times or so and hasnt been answered yet so I wouldnt hold my breath while waiting for an answer.
If Plame were truly covert, why did the CIA confirm her employment with the CIA when Novak called for information?
Sure, Koolaid, Novak called the CIA personnel office and asked if they had a Valerie Plame, aka Valerie Wilson, employed there...
Robert Novak on September 29, 2003 stated the following on CNN:
"Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this. In July, I was interviewing a senior administration official on Ambassador Wilson's report when he told me the trip was inspired by his wife, a CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction. Another senior official told me the same thing. When I called the CIA in July, they confirmed Mrs. Wilson's involvement in a mission for her husband. They asked me not to use her name, but never indicated it would endanger her or anybody else. According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative, and not in charge of undercover operatives."
LOL...And why would I believe Bob Novak's improbable statement?
Oh so that is what NOVAK said, lets hear from the guy on the OTHER end of that phone call
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069_pf.html
Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.
Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.
Thanks to you, Solon, Irony and others who have once again posted links and thoroughly debunked the disgraceful lies that the neo-CONS are still repeating about Plame and Wilson.
Anyone who is really interested in the truth would not try to advocate for the current administration's falsehoods concerning this. It's not a game of "gotcha" People's lives are at stake.
Thank you Mary I appreciate that.
They didnt. They NEVER do. You can ASK but the CIA never confirms nor denies a CIA agents identity. What they did was tell Novak that then called him back and said IF you go with this story please dont divulge her name. The CIA never did confirm her identity
Agreed; it certainly appears unlikely kozakid1769 will ever admit that he's wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence proving that he is wrong. But refuting his falsehoods is still worthwhile if others reading this thread have not fully immunized themselves to the facts as he seems to have done.
One of my personal favorites from the wrong wing is the "her identity was well known in certain circles in DC" Sounds like a secret to me. Another is trying argue at the same time that she had the pull to get Joe assigned but also that she was a minor office peon. The real story at this point is the way the story was not covered. We still argue about whether or not she was covert. We should have started the whole discussion with why would the administration not take the simple step of determining if revealing her identity would be safe before they give out the information to the press. Why has the media never stressed that question which is like a huge elephant in a closet?
"...why would the administration not take the simple step of determining if revealing her identity would be safe before they give out the information to the press."
Uhhh... because it would require decency and integrity?
And more to the point it would have been consistent with Bush's position on every other instance when some intelligence information gets leaked. Disclosure of other information harms the US he has said repeatedly. You would expect his underlings to act accordingly and check first. To me it is absolute proof he has always used this argument for his own agenda and the war on terror is just a tool to get power. Anyone else who is sincere about the war on terror would want the leakers all fired. Giving them the benefit of all doubt they acted at least with reckless disregard. the more plausible explanation by a light year is that this was a concerted course of action.
If her status as a CIA employee was well-known in D.C. before Novak wrote his column, why would anyone consider finding out her status beforehand? Certainly, if she were truly covert, the CIA would not have confirmed her employment with the CIA when Novak called the agency for information.
Yep, Koolaid, I'm sure the CIA confirmed Valerie Plame's employment for Bob Novak. And this is how it went down:
CIA OPERATOR: Good morning! CIA...
NOVAK: <impatiently> Personnel office.
CIA PERSONNEL OFFICE: Good morning! CIA/Human Resources Department.
NOVAK: <impatiently> I need to know if you got a Valerie Wilson working there...maybe she goes by Valerie Plame or something.
CIA PERSONNEL OFFICE: I'm sorry, sir. I can't give out that information.
NOVAK: <impatiently> Look, I'm Bob Novak. I know Dick Cheney and all those guys at the White House...it's okay.
CIA PERSONNEL: Well... <pause> Mr. Cheney has been here every day this week...
NOVAK: <impatiently> Yea...I knnw, I know. Look, I'm in a hurry...Does Valerie Plame or whatever her name is work there?
CIA PERSONNEL: <pause> Well, alright... Valerie works here. But I didn't tell you that, okay?
Yep, Koolaid, I'll bet that's what happened.
They didnt confirm it. It was NOT well known. Her nieghbors didnt know. Fitzgerald said directly it was NOT well known outside the intelligence community.
Solon, as I recall it wasn't until right after the Scooter Libby trial that the CIA confirmed that Valerie Plame was covert. Until then the fact that she had been covert was classified.
Exactly. Koza keeps saying they confirmed it to Novak. They didnt. He is as wrong about that as his original claim that there has never been any evidence Valarie was covert. FLAT. OUT. WRONG.
Koolaid and others like hime are either just making stuff up as they go along or else this is what has been drilled into their heads by the the likes of Limbaugh and the Ministry of Propaganda (aka FOX News). In either event it is alarming, annoying and sad.
If it were well known in DC then Novak did not need either a source nor a confirmation. It would have been unnecessary to publish it. Makes no sense.
Was Plame part of the team that gave nuclear blueprints to Iran? If so, should she be charged with treason?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/jan/05/energy.g2
Iran got their blueprints from A.Q. Kahn.
Valerie Plames name appears nowhere in that article. Are you kidding me or are you this desperate? Ya got nothin.
“The intelligence from Bush 1 to Clinton to Bush 2 was consistent.” -- Kozakid1769.
When did consistent come to mean correct? For example if you would have said, because you did not have the correct information, that heavier than air motor powered flight was not in man's capability on December 18, 1903 -- you would have been wrong. Dec. 16th right, Dec. 18th wrong. See the difference consistent does not constitute correct.
Wow, this thread was like a trip down memory lane. With KoolAidKid as the wingnut of times gone by.
And, HBL... unfortunately they don't get any smarter. (You notice I'm being civil.) ;>)
Here are some very simple facts to look up Koolaid.
In regards to PLame being covert: As has been stated many times here the CIA stated she was covert and RELEASED DOCUMENTATION showing she was. Everyone charged with any part of outting Plame tried to say she was not covert and every single judge who heard any part of the case said she was. This goes through all of the appeals from J. Miller, Novak and Libby. Every single judge that saw the evidence said she was covert.
In regards to it being a "known secret": All Libby, Miller, or Novak had to do was produce one of the numerous people who knew her identity who would under oath say they did. They could find none. Not one single person to do that. Why? Becuase they did not exist. FItzgerald did a thorough investigation into that claim and found that her neighbors and friends had no idea she was a covert agent.
In regards to why wasn't anyone arrested for the underlying crime: This is where the charge for obstruction of justice stems from. It is clear from the evidence produced at the Libby trial that he was not he only person putting this information out there. Who did it first? Who told at least 3 different people to give the information to several different reporters? The first instance seems to be Libby giving it to Miller, but sinc ehe lied about that, where he got the information from and who else knew it, Fitzgerlad could nto get to the truth. The lies were painfully clear (he had a piece of paper from his boss with Plames name of it for Pete's sake) but he would not tell the truth. Without this, the person (or persons) resposible for the original leaking of a COVERT CIA operative could not be determined.
The rest of you posts are smoke a mirrors that too many are indulging you in. If Wilson was a liar is it then ok to threaten National security by outting a covert agent? If the CIA was wrong is it ok to leak a classified name? If Saddam was after nuclear material does that mean it is ok to blow major anti nuclear operations? The answer to every question to any TRUE American is a resounding "No, not ever!". Please just leave it there. You are comig of as not only a fool, but a fool who cares more for a party than his country.
Good summary, thanks.
For a good summary of the situation, by Sidney Blumenthal:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sidney_blumenthal/2007/10/the_spy_comes_in_from_the_cold.html
"None of Valerie Plame's elaborate training to become an elite covert operative for the CIA prepared her for the byzantine, vicious and dispiriting smear campaigns directed against her and her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson, in George Bush's Washington.
When he felt compelled to tell the truth about President Bush's false rationale for the invasion of Iraq - the infamous 16 words in his 2003 State of the Union address claiming Saddam Hussein was securing yellow cake uranium for nuclear weapons - vice president Dick Cheney ordered the defamation of Wilson's reputation. When the White House apparatus was instantly set in motion, with Cheney's chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby serving as the action officer on the op, and Karl Rove and Ari Fleischer relentlessly pressing the "scoop" on reporters, Plame still toiled away unknowing at her job at the CIA, seeking information about the existence of weapons of mass destruction, not only in Iraq but also Iran and other dangerous places.
In the blink of an eye, as quickly as Rove says to Chris Matthews, the host of MSNBC's Hardball, "Wilson's wife is fair game," Plame's carefully constructed secret identity, her worldwide network of informants and the vital flow of intelligence on WMDs were blown apart."
What is so frightening about KOOLAID and his species is that almost any of their points fail if you try to reason through with their implications. They all stumble on some logical inconsistency. The right realizes that this event would show how utterly phony GWB is about his war on terror if it were ever clearly presented to the people. It hasnt been. the nonsense from the defenders has been aided by the nonsense coverage from the media.