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Wash. Post's Hiatt distorted Obama's education remarks, touted McCain's "principles"

November 26, 2007 4:22 pm ET
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SUMMARY: Washington Post editorial page editor Fred Hiatt falsely claimed that Sen. Barack Obama "derided" teaching math and reading to "all children, especially poor and minority children" as "preparing children 'to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.' " In fact, Obama suggested that preparation for standardized tests shouldn't "come at the expense of music, or art, or phys. ed., or science." Hiatt also claimed that Sen. John McCain is the only current presidential candidate with "principles" that he "holds strongly enough to take an electoral hit" on issues such as the Iraq war, immigration, and "curbing the influence of money in politics." But McCain has shifted positions and demonstrated inconsistencies on all three of those issues.

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In his November 26 column, Washington Post editorial page editor Fred Hiatt claimed that Sen. Barack Obama's (D-IL) "positions have shifted over the past several months," asserting that "they've shifted uncannily to where middle-class Democratic voters happen to be." As evidence of these "shifts," Hiatt referred to a November 20 speech on education Obama gave in New Hampshire, claiming that "what [Obama] said about schools was what Democrats and the teachers unions want to hear." Hiatt wrote: "Merit pay for teachers has morphed, in his plan, into a 'professional compensation system designed with the help and agreement of teachers' organizations.' And making sure schools teach all children, especially poor and minority children, to read and do math is derided as preparing children 'to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.' " Obama, however, did not "deride[]" teaching math and reading to "all children, especially poor and minority children," but instead said: "[D]on't tell us that the only way to teach a child is to spend most of the year preparing him to fill in a few bubbles on a standardized test. Don't tell us that these tests have to come at the expense of music, or art, or phys. ed., or science."

Additionally, Hiatt claimed that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) is the only current presidential candidate with "principles" that he "holds strongly enough to take an electoral hit," specifically citing McCain's positions on the Iraq war, immigration, and "curbing the influence of money in politics." McCain, however, has shifted positions and demonstrated stark inconsistency on all three of those issues.

In his November 26 column, Hiatt wrote:

Barack Obama suggests that Hillary Clinton is guilty of triangulating, poll-testing and telling the American people what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear.

Maybe so. But then it's fair to ask: Is Obama telling the American people anything they don't want to hear? More specifically, as he campaigns for votes in Iowa and New Hampshire, is he saying anything except what polls suggest Democrats there might want to hear?

His campaign points to Obama's traveling to Detroit to endorse higher fuel standards for automobiles, his preaching parental responsibility in black churches and his refusing to promise Iowa activists that he will cut the defense budget. He backs driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, not a crowd-pleaser this electoral season.

But to the extent that Obama's positions have shifted over the past several months, they've shifted uncannily to where middle-class Democratic voters happen to be.

Obama still presents himself as the candidate who can rise above the tired old debates and tell everyone "what they need to hear," as he said in an address on schools last week. But what he said about schools was what Democrats and the teachers unions want to hear: Schools need more money. Merit pay for teachers has morphed, in his plan, into a "professional compensation system designed with the help and agreement of teachers' organizations." And making sure schools teach all children, especially poor and minority children, to read and do math is derided as preparing children "to fill in bubbles on standardized tests."

However, as the text of Obama's speech makes clear, Obama did not "deride[]" teaching math and reading to "all children, especially poor and minority children." Rather, Obama said preparation for standardized tests "shouldn't come at the expense of a well-rounded education":

OBAMA: But I'll tell you what's wrong with No Child Left Behind. Forcing our teachers, our principals, and our schools to accomplish all of this without the resources they need is wrong. Promising high-quality teachers in every classroom and then leaving the support and the pay for those teachers behind is wrong. Labeling a school and its students as failures one day and then throwing your hands up and walking away from them the next is wrong.

And by the way, don't tell us that the only way to teach a child is to spend most of the year preparing him to fill in a few bubbles on a standardized test. Don't tell us that these tests have to come at the expense of music, or art, or phys. ed., or science. These tests shouldn't come at the expense of a well-rounded education, they should help complete that well-rounded education. The teachers I've met didn't devote their lives to testing, they devoted them to teaching, and teaching our children is what they should be allowed to do.

Regarding McCain, Hiatt wrote:

But campaigning does pose a test of character: Are there any principles that a candidate holds strongly enough to take an electoral hit -- or to try to lead and bring the electorate along -- rather than follow the polls? This year and over the years, we've seen, for example, that John McCain has some such principles: on Iraq, on immigration, on curbing the influence of money in politics. With the rest of the field, in both parties, it's not so clear.

On Iraq, immigration, and campaign finance, however, McCain has demonstrated inconsistency and has admitted to shifting his positions:

  • McCain has been inconsistent in his criticism of the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war. As recently as August 17, McCain described himself as "the greatest critic of the initial four years, three-and-a-half years" of the Iraq war. As Media Matters has noted, however, while McCain has criticized the Bush administration for its Iraq war rhetoric and conduct, he has also repeatedly praised the administration -- saying, for example, on the March 7, 2004, broadcast of ABC News' This Week: "I'm confident we're on the right course. ... I am confident that an imperfect democracy is what we'll get out of Iraq will be vastly superior to what the people of Iraq had prior to this." A December 8, 2005, column in The Hill in by Byron York quoted McCain as saying: "I do think that progress is being made in a lot of Iraq. Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course. If I thought we weren't making progress, I'd be despondent." At an August 22, 2006, fundraiser, McCain claimed that the Bush administration's "rosy scenarios" about the situation in Iraq have "exacerbated" public "disillusionment" with the war. Just three days later, however, he issued a press release "commend[ing] the President for his public statements offering Americans an honest assessment of the progress we have made in Iraq."
  • On immigration, McCain himself admitted to shifting his position on border security in order to appeal to "the American people's priorities." As the Associated Press reported on November 3:

John McCain spent months earlier this year arguing that the United States must combine border security efforts with a temporary worker program and an eventual path to citizenship for many illegal immigrants.

Now, the Republican presidential candidate emphasizes securing the borders first. The rest, he says, is still needed but will have to come later.

"I understand why you would call it a, quote, shift," McCain told reporters Saturday after voters questioned him on his position during back-to-back appearances in this early voting state. "I say it is a lesson learned about what the American people's priorities are. And their priority is to secure the borders."

  • Regarding campaign finance reform, Media Matters has noted McCain's shifting stance on rules governing so-called 527 groups. McCain -- after losing his bid for 2000 Republican presidential nomination -- wrote legislation mandating that 527s disclose their donors, and claimed that his "amendment in no way restricts the ability of any individual or organization from spending money to influence the political or electoral system." In July 2000, legislation was passed and signed into law that required 527s to disclose their donors but placed no limits on how much an individual could donate -- legislation that McCain praised as "cur[ing] one of the most outrageous, and most evil, kinds of practices." In 2002, McCain opposed making sweeping changes to the 527 law, and the 2002 McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill banned "soft money" -- a move that, at the time, was seen by many as hurting Democrats more than Republicans -- but placed no cap on donations to 527s.

However, after progressive 527s proved adept at raising money during the 2004 presidential election, McCain introduced legislation capping annual donations to 527s at $5,000 -- again, a move widely seen as hurting Democrats more than Republicans. On January 31, 2007, McCain introduced the 527 Reform Act of 2007, which required that 527 groups register as "political committees" and capped individual donations to such groups at $25,000 per year. On January 31, McCain's office issued a press release on the legislation, which stated in part: "To put it in simple terms, a [billionaire progressive financier such as] George Soros could give $25,000 per year as opposed to $10 million to finance these activities."

A February 11 Washington Post article also documented McCain's varied stances on 527 groups:

But now the contrast between McCain the presidential candidate and McCain the reformer can be jarring. McCain's campaign says that he is still studying whether to forgo the public financing and spending limits he has long supported, but that he will not be handicapped by restrictions his competitors will not face in 2008.

McCain the reformer worked unsuccessfully through Congress and the courts to try to stop nonprofit political groups known as 527s from using unlimited donations to run political ads and fund other activities aimed at influencing voters in the run-up to elections. He reintroduced legislation last week to end 527 donations, but there appears to be little appetite in Congress to pass it.

McCain the candidate now expects Republicans to use the same big-money 527 groups in the 2008 elections to beat Democrats, if the groups remain legal. "The senator believes that both parties should be subjected to an even playing field. If Democratic organizations are allowed to take advantage of 527s, Republican organizations will, too," said Mark Salter, a senior McCain adviser. The senator declined to be interviewed.

McCain the reformer relentlessly argued that six- and seven-figure "soft money" checks that corporations, wealthy individuals and unions were giving to political parties to influence elections were corrupting American politics. "The voices of average Americans have been drowned out by the deafening racket of campaign cash," he warned just a few years ago.

McCain the candidate has enlisted some of the same GOP fundraising giants who created and flourished in the soft-money system, including Bush's fundraising "Pioneers" and "Rangers," who earned their designations by raising at least $100,000 or $200,000 for his campaigns.

At least six of McCain's first eight national finance co-chairmen have given or raised large donations for political parties or 527 groups, campaign and IRS records show. In all, the finance co-chairs have given at least $13.5 million in soft money and 527 donations since the 1998 election.

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    • Author by nerzog (November 26, 2007 4:34 pm ET)
         

      Only slightly off topic, but what happened to that story about Bush's brother who made a fortune selling standardized tests to schools under NCLB? Buried, no doubt, along with the Scott McClellan story.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by justicetruthus8276 (November 26, 2007 4:35 pm ET)
         

      Justice and Truth in the USA - Fact Check Edition:

       Hiatt referred to a November 20 speech on education Obama gave in New Hampshire, claiming that "what [Obama] said about schools was what Democrats and the teachers unions want to hear."

      Hiatt is making a central point about the Democrat Party that I hope does not get lost in the silly "analysis" of this topic.  What people need to realize is that the Democrat Party is completely beholden to the powerful teachers unions.  And NO Democrat politician can say anything that goes contrary to the powerful and influential teachers unions and there big union money.  The only organization more powerful is the lawyers lobby.

      Merit pay?  No deal.   Voucher programs?  No way.

      So we end up with Democrats sending their own children to private schools while poor parents are trapped in the incomptent government schools that are completely worthless.

      - BOTTOM LINE -  Hiatt was merely speaking an inconvenient truth to power.

       

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (November 26, 2007 4:39 pm ET)
           

        Justytroothy, who's scarier to you, schoolteachers or nurses?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (November 26, 2007 5:07 pm ET)
             

          If you ask me, and you didn't, I'd have to go with nurses since my wife's a nurse and she could kick my ass if she wanted to.

          On the other hand my daughter is a teacher and she could too, but probably wouldn't .

          So I'm more afraid of nurses. 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (November 26, 2007 5:36 pm ET)
               

            Clowns. Clowns are scarier than teachers or nurses.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by snoopy (November 26, 2007 5:46 pm ET)
               

            Do nurses give mouth to joint resuscitation? I wouldn't be afraid of a nurse that did that.

            TMI again, wasn't it?

            Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 4:42 pm ET)
           

        Since you are so stupid you dont even know the name of the largest political party in the United States, I cant take anything you post seriously.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 6:50 pm ET)
             

          Wow, there are a lot of vicious responses here. It couldn't be from the nice, peace-loving leftists, could it?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by roundhouse (November 26, 2007 6:53 pm ET)
               

            Please. Spare us all the mock indignation. You will not control the terms of the discussion in that passive-aggressive manner.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 7:44 pm ET)
                 

              I'm not trying to control anything. I'm just pointing out the many responses that either discuss something unrelated or name-call.

              Why is it that the Republicans are viewed as being controlled by big corporations, but when it's suggested that Democrats are controlled by labor unions it's treated as foolishness?

              It should not be difficult to accept that a majority of politicians are influenced by whatever will get them more votes, money, or power.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by roundhouse (November 26, 2007 8:28 pm ET)
                   

                Yeah, whatever. People were responding to a common troll who has shown he has no intention of engaging in honest give and take.

                Your implication is that we lefties are pushovers, not supposed to voice our thoughts stridently. And when we do speak out we are behaving counter to your perception of what we are supposed to embody. In other words, you're telling us what is acceptable behavior and that is a control tactic. So get over it.

                Now. Just how powerful do you think labor unions are compared to, oh I don't know, petroleum industries or big pharma or the creditors? Union membership in this country has steadily declined from around 40% in the 50's to about 13% today. There's no comparison.

                Also, unions protect working Americans. There ain't no shame in a candidate getting endorsements and even guidance from groups of working Americans.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 8:32 pm ET)
                     

                  Who employs those "working Americans"? It's not shameful to be endorsed or supported by a business (many of which also support Democratic interests).

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by roundhouse (November 26, 2007 8:53 pm ET)
                       

                    Who exploits those working Americans?

                    Who outsources, offshores and hides profits in tax shelters?

                    The goal of employers is not to pay living wages. Nor is their goal to support throughout their retirement those who made the company profitable by being the most productive workforce on the planet. The point of companies is to drive down costs at all costs. That usually translates into flesh and bone people getting the shaft while the company is subsidized with public money.

                    I'll grant that many Dems are in the pocket of industry. They are the money wing of the Party. That's why I get involved locally. That's why I push the Democratic Party to be the people's Party.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 12:43 am ET)
                         

                      That's why there should be balance. You can't blindly support one without consideration for the other.

                      Unethical business practices should be dealt with,  but corporations and entrepreneurs have largely made the American economy what it is today. The interests of business should not be ignored by focusing purely on the sob stories.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by worrierking (November 27, 2007 7:55 am ET)
                           

                        The history of industrial America is full of stories of unethical business practices, supported by government, enforced by it's police and military, who deprived working Americans of a living wage and decent working conditions.

                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 8:09 am ET)
                           

                        Thanks. As if we needed another example of the profit before people mindset of the GOP.

                        Labor has made this country what it is. Money doesn't clean a floor, change bed sheetes or build widgets. People do.

                        But it is vital that businesses behave ethically are made to observe regulations and that entreprenuers are ensured equal access to markets. On that I think we agree.

                        What I object to is the purchasing of political influence. The voice of a few interests should not outweigh the many. I object to companies polluting the environment and then relying on public money for the clean up (that's called privatized profits, socialized expenses) It's also unacceptable for one person at the top to get paid at a level 500 times greater than the average employee. There is simply no way that one person is 500 times more productive than anyone else in the company.

                        I object to this stuff because I care about people. This is our democracy. We own it, we're in this together and when I am exploited you are exploited.

                        For instance, when Deborah Shank gets permanent brain damage in a collision with a semi, relies on in home care givers but is later forced by the courts to pay back $470,000 to her employer, Wal-Mart, it makes all of us more vulnerable.

                        Two years ago Wal-Mart sued the Shanks for the $470,000 it had spent on her medical care. A federal judge ruled last year in Wal-Mart's favor, backed by an appeals-court decision in August. Now, her family has to rely on Medicaid and Mrs. Shank's social-security payments to keep up her round-the-clock care. That's right the Walton family made private profits off of Deborah's cheap labor and socialized the expense of their obligation to her when they could suck no more work from her.

                        Complain about sob stories all day long dog, it just exposes the cruel nature of the heartless rightwing.

                        Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 8:17 pm ET)
               

            I am nice when I am nice and I am not when I am not. How nice is it to continually and contemptuously misusing the name of the Democratic party. I notice you are another of these rightwingers who only seem to notice the LIBERAL nastyness and for some reason the rigthy nastyness doesnt seem to get noticed by you. Until it is you just have no credibility on the issue

            Report Abuse
      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 26, 2007 4:44 pm ET)
           

        So the only children in public schools are the spawn of conservatives? Let's see, over 50 million people voted Democratic in the 2004 election.....hmmmmmm well, I guess you could visit Choate or someplace like that... I wonder how many kids with Democrats for parents you will find there????? Do you ever have a clue??????????

        Report Abuse
        • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 8:01 pm ET)
             

          Using extra ?'s does not make your points any better.

          Most politicians are wealthy compared to the rest of us. These politicians have the opportunity to use better private schools, and they often do. The point then is that Republicans tend to favor things that allow more kids to attend schools of their choice such as vouchers. These options are largely opposed by Democrats.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 8:22 pm ET)
               

            Yes they are and for what we see as good reason. We see it as an attack on public education and a further stratification of society. It gives tax money to the wealthy that already send their kids to private schools, it takes money away from public education and the choice you are talking about is the choice you can AFFORD. More ways to filter tax dollars through rich peoples pockets, more ways to get society to give further help to those who already have much at the expense of those who have little and causing harm to society as a whole. We need EVERYONE to be as well educated as possible not a fantastic education for those who can afford it subsidized by tax dollars a decent education for those with a good income and a crappy education for those with no means. I dont care if you agree with us. It is disengenuous to pretend we dont have altruistic reasons for our opposition. I am opposed to vouchers and I can afford private schools for my daughter and I am not a teacher.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 8:37 pm ET)
                 

              We want everyone to be able to get the best possible education. By excluding school choice to only those who can afford it you are relegating millions of poor kids to underperforming public schools. What better way to improve schools than by injecting some competition between schools into the mix?

              Vouchers merely level the playing field. Why shouldn't a poor inner city child be given the opportunity to go to a better school?

              Report Abuse
              • Author by roundhouse (November 26, 2007 10:29 pm ET)
                   

                That premise is flawed. Many public schools provide superior educations to private schools.

                I can't believe there is even the slightest bit of acceptance in this country that it is ok for education to be stratified. Education is not a commodity, just like healthcare, it is an essential element of a healthy, secure and prosperous society.

                Some things, the commons, are simply debilitated by sucking profits from them.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 1:48 am ET)
                     

                  Just because some public schools outperform private schools doesn't make the premise flawed. A student should be able to opt out of attending a public school if he wants to attend a better private school. And he should be able to do it without having to pay for both. Many churches are willing to pay for poorer kids to attend better, safer schools. The government should do all they can to make this easier.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 8:24 am ET)
                       

                    This is our fundamental difference...uh no wait. You would have the government use its power to intervene in private lives? Return your conservative credentials on the double, you have Progressive views of government use of power. Except that while your belief that government should facilitate unequal levels of education is anti-Progressive, your view of government intervention is hypocritical for a conservative to espouse. Where are you? What's your argument?

                    What I was about to write is that it is not the role of our government to hand over public money to private interests. It is the role of our government to make quality public education the standard for every single neighborhood across the country.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 10:44 am ET)
                         

                      When did your side start to espouse education as a private interest? I am already paying for other kids to go to school, even though I have never used the public school. The main point is in allowing me to have some choice in my child's school, without paying for it twice.

                      I'm not talking about the government dishing out funds as much as I am for allowing citizens to keep more of their money to encourage more giving by the churches and charities. Government shouldn't try to make sure everyone succeeds, they only need to make sure everyone has the opportunity.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 5:15 pm ET)
                           

                        And what opportunity do they have without a good education? Public education is a Public investment one we ALL benifit from even if we dont use it. Dont you want the checker behind the counter to be able understand math well enough to make change? Dont truck drivers NEED to be able to read street signs? This list is endless. EVERYONE being educated is a public necessity. So for THAT you have to pay your fair share of public education if YOU decide you want to send YOUR kid to a private school then that is YOUR decision and YOUR expense. Again the conservative telling us how he only cares about ME and not US.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 9:18 pm ET)
                             

                          I'm sick of this perception about conservatives not caring. Liberals want to spend other people's money, but conservatives are the ones who give the most of their own, even though liberals make more money.

                          http://www.philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 9:54 pm ET)
                               

                            Brooks is not altogether honest in my view.

                            He compares religious conservatives to secular progressives. That's apples and oranges.

                            It seems that religious people in general would give more to (religious?) charities than would a secularist, be they conservative or progressive. He needs to be honest and compare religious Progressives to religious Conservatives and secular Progressives to secular Conservatives. Then we can talk.

                            And another sticking point I have with Brooks, the charitable giving. Is he only looking at religious charities for his numbers or does he take into account humanitarian charities, like Amnesty International, that have no religious prerequisites?

                            Furthermore, faith based charities more often than not apply preconditions of pseudo-religious faithfulness, dogmatic political loyalty for distribution of aid (abstinence only comes to mind). Naturally, a Progressive concerned with the welfare of all people could not in good conscience support such discriminatory practices.

                            Basically, try again Dog. Brooks' study ain't all that.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 4:48 pm ET)
                                 

                              You must have missed this: 

                              "Religious liberals give nearly as much as religious conservatives, Mr. Brooks found. And secular conservatives are even less generous than secular liberals."

                              I gather from this that there are a lot more religious conservatives than religious liberals. The driving factor is religion. I'm not sure what his criteria for being "religious" is.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by roundhouse (November 28, 2007 5:03 pm ET)
                                   

                                So, how does secular conservatives being less generous than secular libs bolster your counter-argument to Solon?

                                I don't think Brooks has proven much of anything. And neither have you.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 7:17 pm ET)
                                     

                                  That point was made to you, not Solon. He was arguing that the data don't account for many types of charity. I don't know all the details. The basic point of the paper is that religious give more than secular, religious are more conservative, so conservatives give more than liberals.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by roundhouse (November 28, 2007 7:34 pm ET)
                                       

                                    You don't know the details of the study yet you have proven you are willing to accept its validity because it supports your opinion. That's shameless partisan nonsense.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 8:23 pm ET)
                                         

                                      You're willing to dismiss it as dishonest. Are you telling me that isn't based on your views? Unless I hear about other studies that show a different result, why would you or I dismiss his claims? Solon claims this is "BS" and from a "biased" source with no evidence of either.

                                      I don't have to know every detail of a study for it to be valid. Since when is that a requirement of posting a source?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by roundhouse (November 28, 2007 8:42 pm ET)
                                           

                                        My dismissal is based on flaws so obvious that even a casual observation (which I pointed out earlier) can reveal them.

                                        It's your citation. You should know of what you speak. If you don't know the details, don't get defensive about being called on your lack of knowledge on the topic.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 8:52 pm ET)
                                             

                                          You didn't point out valid flaws. And I am not ignorant of the topic, I simply don't know every detail about which charities his 15 studies involved. I assume they include whatever the respondents consider a charity. For you to expect me to know the methodology of each study is ludicrous.

                                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 10:21 pm ET)
                               

                            Your link is partisan BS talking about liberal antipathy to religion shows they are baised hacks. The book the mention talks about who gives more to SPECIFIC charaties. So you have NO such evidence nor does any exist to say conservatives give more than liberals. Who gives more to local charaties, to their nieghbors anonymously to people on the street? To those jars that are set up in stores? None of that is addressed. So just because a study shows conservatives like to give more certain charaties is not an indication. Was Greenpeace on the radar? My wife and I like to give money to an intenational group that gives farm animals to third world villages. WAS THAT COVERED? Your biased BS website does NOT establish what you WISH it did.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 4:44 pm ET)
                                 

                              Holy cow! Settle down. I don't know all the details of the study. I can only go by what his conclusions are. What makes the website biased?

                              His basic claim is the difference between the religious and the secular. Apparently there are a lot more religious conservatives than religious liberals.

                              "religious people gave about three and a half times as much as secular people — $2,210 versus $642. And even when religious giving is excluded from the numbers, Mr. Brooks found, religious people still give $88 more per year to nonreligious charities."

                               

                              Report Abuse
                  • Author by worrierking (November 27, 2007 8:48 am ET)
                       

                    I went to a private, church funded school for twelve years. The school outperformed the local public school.

                    The private school also expelled anyone who did not attend church services weekly, had failing grades in three subjects or anyone with any kind of physical or emotional problem.

                    Those students who were expelled were accepted at the local public school, where they were given counseling, tutoring, or whatever they needed to be successful, productive members of society.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Pithaughn (November 27, 2007 10:30 am ET)
                       

                    Wrong wrong wrong. There is plenty of public money to have the absolute, unequivocally best public school system in the history of the world. The day you start to remove even more money from public education with vouchers, "faith based initiatives" etc. you are actively degrading democracy. Public education has slipped over the last 40 years as politicians like R Reagan were looking for money to transfer to the ever growing military budgets. If it was'nt for teachers unions, teacher salaries would be even more pitiful. 

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 11:12 pm ET)
                   

                No they dont level the playing field that is baloney. First many of the best schools in the country are public schools the answer is to make public education better not to further stratify the educational system so that only the really wealthy can get the best education.  Which is what will happen when we take money OUT of public education to help pay the rich for what they are already doing anyway. I went to public schools, you said you went to a private school I dont see you are any better educated than I am. The BEST private schools are WAAAAY more expensive than vouchers are ever going to pay for. Then the private schools dont have to take kids with dyslexia or a learning problem or any host of other problems. So THEY are left in the private schools with LESS resources. Your plan will end up with the wealthy getting superior education the middle class a decent education and the poor getting shafted. The CHOICE you are talking about is the choice of what you can afford. This is certainly good for the elites but you keep framing it as good for the poor. That is BS. Making Public Education better is what is best for the poor.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 1:00 am ET)
                     

                  The poor are already getting "shafted" by being stuck in horrible schools.  There is very little incentive for the schools to change if they keep their students and their funding no matter how inept they are.

                  Many of the best public schools are in affluent neighborhoods. Most of the worst public schools are in poor neighborhoods. You keep saying vouchers help the rich. Why not give a poor kid the option to choose a better school (public or private)?

                  The private sector and competition tend to be more efficient with funds than the government will ever be. Many public schools are failing. Why keep throwing money at a failing institution? We need a fundamental change.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:30 am ET)
                       

                    I keep saying it because its true. There is no question the immediate effect will be to subsidize something the rich are already doing with tax dollars that would come OUT of public education. The BEST private schools will NEVER be affordable for the poor. Subsidies will NEVER reach that high. They arent even MEANT to that is nothing but a trojan horse. Do you know that in Arizona a teacher makes about a quarter what I do? They have to have a college degree.  Do you think they do it for the money? Public education is a trust. There are alraedy mechanisms in place that can help schools if they get the resources. We need to invest MORE in education not siphon money AWAY from it. The whole voucher program is another trojan horse to kill public education. They will use the mindless mantra that privat enterprise is more efficient than public endeavors which is sometimes true and sometimes not true. Find a health insurance company that operates on the margin Medicare does. They dont exist. Some things shouldnt be done for profit. Money strapped schools will scrimp on the education. The agenda is to do the standardized testing already in place. Then siphon off the best students, since private schools dont have to take any educational problems so public schools will be left with the more expensive special ed teachers for say dislexic students and the best kids gone, then when they show higher test scores, the righwing will say SEE, private schools can teach better and cheaper. NO, we need a better commitment to public education. The alternative is to get the education you can AFFORD. The GOP hates it when the governments spends a dime not filtered through a rich mans pockets. Since not enough educational tax dollars are going to the pockets of the wealthy we are hearing the pavlovian talking points that just make your rightwingers go all slobbery. I love the way the rightwing benifits from its mistakes. Education has been shortshrifted for resources since the 80's when the rightwing swing began and now that the schools are suffering its look how bad the schools are we need to privitize. The answer is a better commitment. Paying teachers more so it will lure more talented teachers. Put the resources into computers labs. Specialize more in higher education so that kids who arent going to Harvard can learn a skill to contribute. Talk about the poor all you want the agenda is to stratify society and give more to the wealthy class.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 12:39 pm ET)
                         

                      If you make as much as you say then you are part of the wealthy class. Teachers average roughly $50k per year despite getting the entire summer and tons of holidays off. Teachers on average get paid fairly well. And phys-ed teachers make the same as an english teacher despite a huge workload difference. I'm not trying to bash teachers here, but the labor unions won't be happy until they make as much as the engineers and lawyers.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 3:54 pm ET)
                           

                        I dont know where you live but several of the people I work with have wives that are teachers and they tell me a starting teacher in Arizona makes around 25 grand a year. A college professor at ASU starts at about 70 grand. Teachers are NOT overpaid. I see no reason they shouldnt make what an engineer does.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 5:49 pm ET)
                             

                          I agree that teachers are not overpaid. Understand that we have a free market system. Aren't doctors more important than actors or baseball players? We can play this game all night. It would be nice to pay our teachers twice what we do, but it wouldn't be practical. They are, on average, making a decent wage.

                          Teachers in Arizona start at something like 35,000. I'm not sure where your 25,000 figure came from.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:26 pm ET)
                               

                            From people MARRIED to teachers where did YOURS come from? You miss the point. It is the fact we are working from a free market I am talking about. It is because of THAT, not what they deserve, that makes me say we should pay them more. The point is we want to make education better and attracting more talented people into the profession would help do that.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 9:25 pm ET)
                                 

                              Now that is a legitimate argument. When someone says that teachers should make more because of the amount of work they do or their contributions to society, it doesn't hold water.

                              Saying that paying them more so that we can attract more qualified people is a legitimate argument.

                              I think we disagree over how much taxpayer money should pay for education. I am for allowing more freedom to the individual, you are for using the government more to create equality. Yours is a good concept, but government has not sufficiently shown itself to be efficient or capable with education in my opinion.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 10:25 pm ET)
                                   

                                It was my original argument made many posts ago. I brought up how much work they do off the clock when YOU said they only work 9 months a year. My argument is that Public education serves EVERYONE, no matter whether they have children or not and that further stratifying our society and the education system is NOT in societies best interest. That taking money OUT of that system in order to subsidize what the wealthy are already doing is NOT in societies best interests and saying it will help the poor is a trojan horse to do so.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by dogrun81 (November 28, 2007 7:20 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Aren't I saving the state money by not using their schools? I think I am entitled to some sort of savings from what I put in then. The fewer students, the lower the costs. Is that right?

                                  Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (November 26, 2007 4:53 pm ET)
           

        "So we end up with Democrats sending their own children to private schools"

        Hmmm....I'd like to see JustUsTroll's stats on this. I would wager that the majority of kids in private schools are from Republican families.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by justicetruthus8276 (November 26, 2007 5:19 pm ET)
             

          Democrats who send their kids to private school (and then insist that poor people don't)

          1. Clintons - (Chelsea)

          ...

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (November 26, 2007 5:26 pm ET)
               

            Yep, and evangelical christians are twice as likely to home-school their children.  Why should they have to pay any taxes?  After all, they are doing God's work!

            Report Abuse
          • Author by snoopy (November 26, 2007 5:30 pm ET)
               

            Wow, a whole list of - ONE! Sure sounds sorta slim of some statistical sample, simpleton.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (November 26, 2007 5:34 pm ET)
               

            "and then insist that poor people don't"

            Who has insisted that? Poor people have the same opportunity to send their kids to private school as they do to buy their own Health Insurance. All they have to do is save their money. Isn't that the way the "free market" works?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 8:09 pm ET)
                 

              Taxpayers already pay for public schools through taxes whether they use them or not. Allowing the option of using these funds to pay for a private school would allow more families to have that choice, as many families can't afford a private school (partly because they are effectively paying for public and private school).

              My parents are not rich by any means, but they sacrificed to send me to private school at around 3-6000 a year. A voucher system would have greatly eased the financial burden.

              By the way, many private schools tend to produce better students than public schools, despite not having the same per student funds that public schools have.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by jjamele2880 (November 26, 2007 8:18 pm ET)
                   

                You should apologize for wasting their great sacrifice, and encourage them to sue the private school they sent you to for malpractice.  

                Your posts make you the poster boy for public education. 

                Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 8:26 pm ET)
                   

                And that is how it should be. We all pay for public education because we all benifit from having an educated public if you WANT a private school you should pay for it.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by dogrun81 (November 26, 2007 8:44 pm ET)
                     

                  At least YOU are debating the issue.

                  The problem is that many public schools do not provide a good education. Many of the Detroit public schools are a mess. I've often heard them described as "war zones" with kids roaming the halls and doing drugs.

                  I think the kids in horrible neighborhoods should have some alternative to this when the public school doesn't do its job.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by snoopy (November 26, 2007 10:48 pm ET)
                       

                    That is true! Totally familiar with the detroit school system, almost exactly like the Texas system. Football above all, because promoting a minority belief in success if you work hard at what you are best at is more important than education which gives you a shot at multiple targets. Don't put all your eggs in one basket is the liberal mantra, go for the gold is the republican mantra.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 11:15 pm ET)
                       

                    The answer is to make public education better and fix the problems not throw the baby out with the bathwater and make the only decent education one that has to be paid for thus placing further burdens on the poor and working classes.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 1:41 am ET)
                         

                      Let me give you a personal example: My small private school was founded and somewhat funded by a church. Tuition roughly $6000 today, somewhat less 10 years ago. That's less than your average public school funds per student. (Much of the extra funding pays the teachers more.)

                      Many of the students were from poor families that were given scholarship money through the church. Vouchers would help place less burden on the lower income families who want a decent education. Better yet, why not privatize the entire school system? Everyone could choose their own school, and poorer families could be assisted like they are with college tuition. Under-performing schools could be replaced by ones that work.

                       

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:33 am ET)
                           

                        That is of course the agenda. Privitize so the Rich can get the best and the poor can be more efficiently shafted. Teachers dont make beans. I have a high school education and make more that college professors at the major colleges do in my state. The idea that teachers are sucking up the resources of the public schools is obscene. Teachers should make far more than they do.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 12:50 pm ET)
                             

                          If you earn over $100k you are in the top 10% of incomes. You are the rich. Most teachers make more than I do. And they only work two-thirds of the year.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 3:59 pm ET)
                               

                            Yes, my job pays about 100,000 a year. Yes that puts me in the top ten percent of wage earners in the country. That hardly makes me rich. So they work when school is open. They also are expected to keep up with current changes in their subject that is continuing education of their own and they have to work setting up the syllabus, correct homework, all on their own time. Again Teachers are NOT overpaid

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 5:55 pm ET)
                                 

                              Well part of the problem is that a gym teacher makes the same as an english teacher. I think the pay should be based more on merit and effort required. A gym teacher has virtually no out-of-school work while an english teacher has oodles of papers to grade.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:28 pm ET)
                                   

                                Whatever, you are now talking about minor adjustments. Let the school districts make those kind of decisions. What I am talking about is having a bedrock committment to PUBLIC education. Vouchers are a step AWAY from that.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 9:28 pm ET)
                                     

                                  I don't think the voucher system would be perfect by any means. But we need some way to get kids a good education without just hiking up taxes.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 10:28 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Sure, which is like saying we need to fix the house but we dont want to spend money to do so. THAT argument is the one that got us into this problem in the first place. Lets fix it but we cant spend more money. Starving the education system for resources is how our education system got so bad in the first place. I detest the way conservatives benifit from their mistakes. They starve the education system at the very time it needed new resources then when the inevitable problems FROM that crop up they say the education system is broke we need to privitize it.

                                    Report Abuse
              • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (November 26, 2007 10:25 pm ET)
                   

                When I (Reed Hundt) was chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (1993-97), I asked Bill Bennett to visit my office so that I could ask him for help in seeking legislation that would pay for internet access in all classrooms and libraries in the country At any rate, since Mr. Bennett had been Secretary of Education I asked him to support the bill in the crucial stage when we needed Republican allies. He told me he would not help, because he did not want public schools to obtain new funding, new capability, new tools for success. He wanted them, he said, to fail so that they could be replaced with vouchers,charter schools, religious schools, and other forms of private education.

                Dogrun, don't be naive. The Republican objective is twofold. Republicans want vouchers so that they can open, by the dozen, religious schools which will teach the students religion, creationism, abstinence, no gay marriage, no gays period. They wish to break the teachers union and it's ties to the Democratic party. They have no interest in  better educating the poor and minority children. If providing a better education for students was the true Republican objective, they would improve public schools first thereby improving the children's neighborhood as well.  

                Report Abuse
                • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 1:33 am ET)
                     

                  Throwing more money at the problem is not a solution. We need fundamental changes. How about we start with shrinking the overpaid supervisory boards that have run many schools into the ground. Our students fall farther behind those of other countries the longer they are in school. There needs to be accountability. If the system isn't working, we need to seriously consider major changes.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:35 am ET)
                       

                    The same old hivemind talking points I have heard on this issue for decades. They dont need more money what we need to do is send the money to PRIVATE schools. We need to filter it through a rich mans pockets. This is what brought on the problems in the first place. They dont need more money, they dont need more money then WOW the schools are terrible. Utterly transparent

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 8:53 am ET)
                       

                    We are graduating more college educated Americans today than 20 or 30 years ago. So there must be something right with our public educators.

                    The debt incurred to a private lender by a college graduate makes it prohibitive for bright, dedicated people to pursue careers as teachers. Teachers just aren't paid what their worth to society is truly. But I guess that's the fault of public education too? Right? Or is it the fault of liberals?

                    You do realize that education is not a magic bullet, don't you? Tech companies, car part manufacturers, textile companies etc. still move their facilities to third world countries where the education level is virtually nill for laborers. It's about labor exploitation of course.

                    We're not going to educate our way to a globally competitive, vibrant middle class. No. The flaw in the system is in trade deals that do not protect wokers' rights. The flaw is in corporations that treat people as low cost commodities instead of community members and family members.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 4:02 pm ET)
                         

                      Wow Roundhouse spot on. You got it going on bud

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 4:36 pm ET)
                           

                        Hey, thanks man. I appreciate that.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 6:17 pm ET)
                             

                          It's nice that we have this lovefest, but your post goes all over the map.

                          I don't count more college grads as proof that we have good schools. Many grads can't read or write beyond an eight grade level.

                          No one is paid based on his/her contributions to society. Entertainers make millions. A-Rod is not paid based on his societal contributions. Teachers are paid by the government just like policemen and firemen. Their pay is largely based on what it takes to get enough people to become teachers.

                          By the way, I do not put all blame on the public schools. Parents are ultimately responsible for their own kids. Too many expect the schools to do all the work. Schools are overburdened with kids from bad homes. If the teachers could just teach our schools would be fine.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:31 pm ET)
                               

                            Can you cough up some evidence that there are some mass of college graduates that cannot read on an 8th grade level? That smells suspiciously like a ludicrous talking point and a  baseless assertion someone might hear from the Oxymoron. Frankly I dont believe it.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 9:14 pm ET)
                                 

                              I meant high school grads.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 10:32 pm ET)
                                   

                                So then when roundhouse made a point about how the colleges are graduating more people than ever before you just changed the subject to high schools and that made sense HOW?

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by dogrun81 (November 29, 2007 12:51 am ET)
                                     

                                  How can you even make that accusation? He's the one who brought college into a discussion about high schools. If he was using college grads to try to prop up the schools, then I have a right to challenge that the schools are succeeding. It's nice that you all can play buddies, but you can't fairly hold me to a different standard than the other posters. 

                                  Report Abuse
                          • Author by roundhouse (November 27, 2007 7:57 pm ET)
                               

                            Alright then. We do agree that parental involvement is crucial for the intellectual development of youngsters. Because just like anything else, we rely on each other for our individual success. Individualism is a sham.

                            So you don't consider that more college graduates is an indication that public education is doing what it's supposed to do despite being hampered by gubmint hating conservatives? Suit yourself.

                            Can you at least support your assertion that 'many' college grads can't read or write beyond an eighth grade level?

                            But we're talking about priorities essentially, aren't we? I mean, when it comes to government pay grades for teachers. It is within our power to make teachers (and our kids they teach) a priority. And they will be when our government is wrested from the radical minority of anti-democratic privatization junkies.

                            When conservatives run government, government does not work for the people. Conservatives are not public servants, they are private profiteers.

                            Report Abuse
              • Author by snoopy (November 26, 2007 10:59 pm ET)
                   

                I'm calling B.S. on that. I had the priveledge of attending MMA in Harlingen, and I had to work all summer long to enjoy that priveledge three years running. And the one lesson I learned was that you deduct everything. My dad "paid" me by having me wash cars at a rediculous rate, his buddies "paid" me to park a car at the VFW hall (at a rediculous rate), raking leaves, whatever else you could think of that will be deductable according to the republican driven tax codes? Since 1976 when I started paying attention, it was a racket.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (November 26, 2007 8:24 pm ET)
               

            You are talking out of your ass. I am a liberal and I send my daughter to a public school. I am betting the large majority of Dems do also. You do what you always do make a baseless assertion with no backup to further your worthless rightwing hivemind talking point. Where is your proof that Dems are more LIKELY than Republicans to send their kids to private schools? Without it you have no point.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by dogrun81 (November 27, 2007 1:53 am ET)
                 

              I think the point is that Democrats in Congress (i.e. rich politicians) are likely to choose a private school, while at the same time denouncing any effort to provide that opportunity to those who can't afford it now.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (November 27, 2007 6:39 am ET)
                   

                Irrelevant. No one is saying that those with the resources ought not to be able to pay the EXTRA to send their kids to private schools to be educated as they see fit. They still pay the taxes to support public education. They also regularly try to raise the commitment to public education. THAT is what is needed. NOT siphoning off the scarce education dollar to give to PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by nerzog (November 27, 2007 10:16 am ET)
                     

                  That is exactly the point. People who can afford it already send their kids to private schools, if they wish. Vouchers would help these well-off people more than anyone, since I have yet to hear of a voucher plan that pays full tuition. What good is a $2000 voucher if the family can't come up with the additional $3-4000?

                  The voucher scam was invented to help those who fled public schools to escape desegregation decades ago, and those who want schools to indoctrinate their children in religion. They don't give a rat's ass about educating "poor kids".

                  Report Abuse
      • Author by worrierking (November 26, 2007 5:20 pm ET)
           

        Amazing!

        You've bought the whole package from the evils of organized labor to the hated trial lawyers.

        I'm surprised you didn't try to tell us how much better it would be with school prayer and the teaching of ID.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (November 26, 2007 5:22 pm ET)
           

        JusticeDoofUs -

        What grade are you in?  Do you go to a public or private elementary school?

        Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (November 26, 2007 5:35 pm ET)
           

        Travesty and Falsehoods in Right Wing Wacky World - Reality Edition: 

        "...the powerful and influential teachers unions and there big union money.  The only organization more powerful is the lawyers lobby."

        As usual, you are absolutely full of it. 

        The most recent Fortune Power 25 that I can find dates back 10 years ago.  I'm still searching for a more recent study.

        Regardless, I'd find it difficult to believe that  the NEA could jump from #9 to #2 in such a short time, not with big dogs like the AARP, the NRA, the AFL-CIO,  the Christian Coalition, the Trial Lawyers, and Israeli-American Public Affairs to contend with. 

         

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Sueelldd (November 26, 2007 4:46 pm ET)
         

      Principles?Supporting a war that is immoral is principled? Ok.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Marker (November 27, 2007 8:51 am ET)
         

      Private school = Catholic school = public shouldn't drop a dime in their "private" hands. If the country has any hope at all, public school is their last, best, chance.  It's funny, schools are going down the tubes and who has been president the last 7 years? Oh yeah, the worst president ever, bush.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by nerzog (November 27, 2007 10:53 am ET)
         

      Dogrun has told us: "many private schools tend to produce better students than public schools".

      That may be true, generally. Has anyone bothered to ask why? Is their curriculum and staff really that superior? Could it have something to do with the fact that they can pick and choose their students? That they can control class size? Let's require private schools to take all applicants and keep unruly students. Let's require that they educate the apathetic students and the students of apathetic, even absent parents. Let's try that for a few years and look at it again...then we'll see how "superior" private schools really are.

      Report Abuse

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