Wash. Times editorial cropped Obama quote to falsely claim he argued against protecting "babies who survive botched late-term abortions"
SUMMARY: A Washington Times editorial falsely claimed that Sen. Barack Obama "argu[ed] cold-bloodedly on the Illinois Senate floor that babies who survive botched late-term abortions should not be considered 'persons' because this would be tantamount to admitting 'that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term.' " In fact, he was not discussing "late-term abortions" in the remarks the editorial highlighted; Obama was asserting that the bill in question, which was not limited to late-term abortions, would "essentially bar abortions."
In a February 1 editorial, The Washington Times falsely claimed that Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama "argu[ed] cold-bloodedly on the Illinois Senate floor that babies who survive botched late-term abortions should not be considered 'persons' because this would be tantamount to admitting 'that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term.' " In fact, Obama was not discussing "late-term abortions" in the remarks the editorial highlighted; as is clear from his March 30, 2001, remarks on the state Senate floor, he was asserting that the bill in question, which was not limited to late-term abortions, would in effect "essentially bar abortions."
The Times editorial asserted that the position Obama took on "babies who survive botched late-term abortions" while in the state Senate "should horrify the two-fifths of Americans who consider themselves pro-life":
Mr. Obama is also one of the most pro-choice presidential contenders in history. His 100 percent rating from the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council as a state senator was just the beginning. Mr. Obama is known in pro-life circles for arguing cold-bloodedly on the Illinois Senate floor that babies who survive botched late-term abortions should not be considered "persons" because this would be tantamount to admitting "that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term." This should horrify the two-fifths of Americans who consider themselves pro-life. It surely won't "unify."
Yet in the quote that the Times referenced, Obama was asserting that the bill, sponsored by Republican state Sen. Patrick O'Malley, was unconstitutional because it would "define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or other elements in the Constitution" and therefore represent a de facto restriction on all abortions. From Obama's March 30, 2001, statement on the Illinois Senate floor:
OBAMA: Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a nine-month-old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.
Additionally, Obama listed a "second reason" in his floor statement that the proposed law was "unconstitutional" -- it would "plac[e] a burden on the doctor" that would prevent many facilities from having the resources necessary to perform abortions:
OBAMA: The second reason that it would probably be found unconstitutional is that this essentially says that a doctor is required to provide treatment to a previable child, or fetus, however way you want to describe it. Viability is the line that has been drawn by the Supreme Court to determine whether or not an abortion can or cannot take place. And if we're placing a burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as -- as is necessary to try to keep that child alive, then we're probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality.
Obama also said: "I think it's important to recognize though that this is an area where potentially we might have compromised and -- and arrived at a bill that dealt with the narrow concerns about how a -- a previable fetus or child was treated by a hospital. We decided not to do that. We're going much further than that in this bill."
From the February 1 Washington Times editorial:
Candidate Barack Obama frequently promises to soar above partisan politics. But the theatrics of such declarations keep bumping into the reality of Mr. Obama's left-liberal record in Washington and the left-liberal record in Illinois state politics which preceded it. The latest reminder: As recently as 2004, Mr. Obama supported decriminalizing marijuana, opening relations with Communist Cuba and providing health care for illegal aliens.
In a little-noticed 2004 video featured today in The Washington Times, Mr. Obama sounds quite comfortable voicing his leftist leanings. "I think we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws," Mr. Obama told a Northwestern University audience as he campaigned for the Senate in 2004. "But I'm not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana." Fast forward to the fall of 2007, and Mr. Obama can be found hedging these views -- meekly raising his hand at a Democratic presidential debate to oppose decriminalization. Wrongly, it turns out. Mr. Obama still supports it, according to a spokesman.
It is not just marijuana, relations with Cuba or health care for illegals. Mr. Obama is also one of the most pro-choice presidential contenders in history. His 100 percent rating from the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council as a state senator was just the beginning. Mr. Obama is known in pro-life circles for arguing cold-bloodedly on the Illinois Senate floor that babies who survive botched late-term abortions should not be considered "persons" because this would be tantamount to admitting "that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term." This should horrify the two-fifths of Americans who consider themselves pro-life. It surely won't "unify."
Let's be realistic. Mr. Obama scores a 95 percent in the liberal activist group Americans for Democratic Action's ratings. He scores in the single digits when judged by conservative groups.
From Obama's March 30, 2001, floor statement:
OBAMA: This bill was fairly extensively debated in the Judiciary Committee, and so I won't belabor the issue. I do want to just make sure that everybody in the Senate knows what this bill is about, as I understand it. Senator O'Malley, the testimony during the committee indicated that one of the key concerns was -- is that there was a method of abortion, an induced abortion, where the -- the fetus or child, as -- as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the womb. And one of the concerns that came out in the testimony was the fact that they were not being properly cared for during that brief period of time that they were still living. Is that correct? Is that an accurate sort of description of one of the key concerns in the bill?
O'MALLEY: Senator Obama, it is certainly a key concern that the -- the way children are treated following their birth under these circumstances has been reported to be, without question, in my opinion, less than humane, and so this bill suggests that appropriate steps be taken to treat that baby as a -- a citizen of the United States and afforded all the rights and protections it deserves under the Constitution of the United States.
OBAMA: Well, it turned out -- that during the testimony a number of members who are typically in favor of a woman's right to choose an abortion were actually sympathetic to some of the concerns that your -- you raised and that were raised by witnesses in the testimony. And there was some suggestion that we might be able to craft something that might meet constitutional muster with respect to caring for fetuses or children who were delivered in this fashion. Unfortunately, this bill goes a little bit further, and so I just want to suggest, not that I think it'll make too much difference with respect to how we vote, that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny. Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a nine-month-old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child. Then this would be an antiabortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional.
The second reason that it would probably be found unconstitutional is that this essentially says that a doctor is required to provide treatment to a previable child, or fetus, however way you want to describe it. Viability is the line that has been drawn by the Supreme Court to determine whether or not an abortion can or cannot take place. And if we're placing a burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as -- as is necessary to try to keep that child alive, then we're probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality. Now, as I said before, this probably won't make any difference. I recall the last time we had a debate about abortion, we passed a bill out of here. I suggested to Members of the Judiciary Committee that it was unconstitutional and it would be struck down by the Seventh Circuit. It was. I recognize this is a passionate issue, and so I -- I won't, as I said, belabor the point. I think it's important to recognize though that this is an area where potentially we might have compromised and -- and arrived at a bill that dealt with the narrow concerns about how a -- a previable fetus or child was treated by a hospital. We decided not to do that. We're going much further than that in this bill. As a consequence, I think that we will probably end up in court once again, as we often do, on this issue. And as a consequence, I'll be voting Present.















The state of Political Discourse in America right now, during this stage of a presidential campaign, specifically as it appears in this thing called a "media", is about as low and foul and insubstantial (race?) and empty and off-point (the functions and Policy of Government being the point) and worthless as it seems it can get.
It's at a relative minimum, the substance and worth of so-called Political Discourse in this thing called a "media", right now...
And it could get even worse, before it gets better.
Republicans who are so fearful and horrified by the imminent changes that the next election will bring, can only begin to imagine the shear horror of the morning of November 3rd 2004 when Democrats awoke to the realization they had to swallow another 4 years of GW Bush.
What would you rather have, a president who is determined to uphold The Constitution or one who thinks nothing of ripping it to shreds?
I think you underestimate the horror your average republican would feel at having a black man or woman as president. They have shown without a doubt they would prefer a moron.
The marijuana decriminalization references brought up in this story had me raising an eyebrow. This is back in the news as a Republican "talking point" after being virtually eliminated in recent years. More than 30 percent of the U.S. population now lives under some form of marijuana decriminalization. A 2007 poll conducted by Zogby International indicated that a majority of Americans favored decriminalization.
What has me raising an eyebrow is the fact that Fox News, in the past week alone, has blasted headlines of two “most recent” BOGUS studies regarding marijuana - listed in the “Health” section of their website and echoed on TV as “news”.
The first headline (I’ll call “Study 1”) that was listed the other day was titled “Study: Cannabis bigger cancer risk than cigarettes” –or- “Study: Smoking a joint is equivalent to 20 cigarettes in terms of lung cancer risk”. I also saw the story on Fox News Cable TV, however, I no longer see it listed on the Health section of their web site (maybe I just don’t know how to find archives). Here is a link to the Rutgers story they must have pulled it from…
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSHKG10478820080129
And today, the most recent Fox News story in Health section (I’ll call “Study 2”) is…
Study Likens Marijuana Withdrawal to That of Nicotine
I don’t watch much Fox News TV, so can’t say for sure - but this was probably broadcast on TV also.
This comes on the heals of just reading similar large scale recent studies at numerous websites online showing the exact opposite – for example, one recent study actually showing the ability of cannabis to shrink tumors.
The reason for the big difference in conclusions between studies I have read and the studies presented by Faux News this past week?...
The number of controls in “Study 1” was 79 (yes, that’s SEVENTY NINE)
The number of controls in “Study 2” was 12 (yep, TWELVE)
Does anyone else see something strange about the sudden appearance of “new” marijuana study “headlines”? The latest study in the Health section headlines at Fox News website is actually from Sept. 2006 (though re-published by ScienceDirect in Feb 2008 issue).
It's election time folks - let's pull out the "Refer Madness" video, point to bogus medical studies and government propaganda, or do whatever it takes to make any candidate that might be thinking of trying to start a CHANGE in attitudes or expose the truths about our drug laws and the millions of Americans whose lives have been impacted by them.
Fox News should be ashamed for even giving these “studies” space on their website - and airing them on TV as part of “Breaking News” is totally ludicrous. Anyone who wants to believe the legitimacy of 2 medical studies that only contained 79 and 12 controls deserves to “fear the evils” of a liberal president.
Holy crap that editorial is SLOPPY !! First, as Obama points out, the discussion was about a fetus that's only alive for a short amount of time post-abortion. To say it's a "baby" that "survived" implies that it stayed alive.
And then there's the ridiculous misinterpretation of his comments re considering this temporarily alive fetus as an individual person with rights.
Can't these stupid people who write these editorials READ ? The author must have gotten his/her info from Rush Limboob or Savage Weiner.
"And then there's the ridiculous misinterpretation of his comments re considering this temporarily alive fetus as an individual person with rights."
Just for a little clarification, just how long does a baby have to live outside the womb to be considered a human? 1 minute? 1 hour? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? Which one of those time limits does the baby aquire constitutional rights?? It sure seems to me that the fetus upon delivery and placement outside the womb should now be classified a human, even by liberal standards. Which I've heard are staunchly against calling it a human until it is actually born.
I thought liberals seek unrestricted abortions in order to keep "botched" ones from happening. Is this article implying that you still allow doctors with coat-hangers to perform abortions?? So, now we have un-skilled doctors providing dangerous medical procedures and committing murder of another human being and brushing it off as if nothing is wrong. And, from the sounds of it, YOU agree with the doctor?
Phil - that is correct, that is what the ARTICLE says. However, the article is lying. If you knew anything about Rev. Moon's Washington Times, you'd know how they skew things.
Obama is arguing that the bill was essentially an anti-abortion bill, which would make abortion illegal in more cases than just that which is discussed above.
He doesn't want to kill babies. Trust me on this one...
"He doesn't want to kill babies. Trust me on this one..."
It does't matter what rev moon's paper says. Obama's quotes are clearly written by mmfa. He clearly says that a baby can be born and killed within a short time frame if that is the choice of the woman. Obviously, I cannot trust you, because in Obama's own words he does not deny wanting babies killed.
You sidetracked my question. At what time frame does a baby "become" a baby; 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day or 1 week? I'm simply trying to clarify liberal judgement of when the baby actually becomes a human baby. I used to hear it was at delivery, now you are saying it is after live delivery. So, until you answer that question, my strawman has not been aborted.
A fetus is an infant when it was viable pre-birth and is viable post-birth. Obama is not arguing that a botched abortion should be able to be manually finished after a live birth - to use the term "killed" is to insinuate that Obama is some ghoul arguing for murder of an otherwise viable person.
The republicans that write these pieces of trash legislation for cases that happen 1 in 1,000,000 times are not only grandstanding for their pea-brained constituents, but they're wasting our tax dollars. This BS is getting old.
"Obama is not arguing that a botched abortion should be able to be manually finished after a live birth"
I'm not saying he is, but you are. In your explanation, the doctor can reach in, turn the baby around then pull the baby out and "finish" the job with the ease allowed while the baby is outside the womb. In my opinion, once the baby is outside the womb it is now a live human being allowed all the rights any other live human being should be allowed. You are saying that as long as the doctor started his "process" of an abortion, he can place the baby in any convieniant position that suits him. Is it your stance that the doctor can take as long as he wants to "finish" the job (outside the womb) as long as he started the process inside the womb?
If that baby does not die from the initial punture/scramble process and is removed from the womb, then the doctor is required to attempt to save it's life...not end it. I could say that there will be no survivors in this scenario, but for the doctor to kill a live baby outside the womb is, indeed, murder.
Are you unable to read multiple paragraphs ? Read the entire transcript. They are discussing the human treatment of these pre-viable fetuses. It is NOT necessary to declare them individuals with full rights in order to treat them humanely.
It's obvious that you take offense not at the actual topic at hand but at abortions in general. You cannot stand that they're legal, so, feeling frustrated, you employ your talking points emotional language and flail about, unable to focus your attention on the matter at hand. You've had your say, to go on any further is a waste of MMFA space.
"It is NOT necessary to declare them individuals with full rights in order to treat them humanely."
Ahhh, so you do approve of live birth, then slaughtering the baby. Since you don't feel new-borns are entitled to full humane rights after birth. And, since they aren't entitled to humane rights, you obviously feel they are not entitled to Constitutional rights. The LAW allows you to kill the fetus IN the womb, not OUT of it.
"It's obvious that you take offense not at the actual topic at hand but at abortions in general. .... unable to focus your attention on the matter at hand. You've had your say, to go on any further is a waste of MMFA space."
This IS the topic at hand! What do you think they are talking about, mahogony for tables instead of pine?? But, if you can't answer straight forward questions and decide to have a differing opinion censored (like worrierking did), you go for it. I'm not here to please YOU, I'm here to voice my opinion, just like you.
"I'm not saying he is, but you are. In your explanation..."
What explanation? I have posted no explanation, but somehow you've psychically inferred one. Put the joint down and come back to us in the adult world where we're trying to have an adult conversation.
"In my opinion, once the baby is outside the womb it is now a live human being allowed all the rights any other live human being should be allowed."
You're right - that's your unlearned opinion, and will be taken with as much salt as necessary, especially considering you seem to be clueless about the significance of the word "viable."
"You are saying..."
I've said nothing of the kind. You're making things up.
"If that baby does not die from the initial punture/scramble process and is removed from the womb, then the doctor is required to attempt to save it's life...not end it."
No, if the fetus was not viable before the procedure and is not viable after the procedure, the doctor has no such obligation to dedicate herculean efforts to create viability where there was none before. It is a waste of time and money for the doctor to even consider doing such a thing (unless, of course, the doctor is a pro-life advocate who is deliberately delivering pre-pre-natal fetuses for the sole purpose of attempting to "save" them), and it is a severe waste of tax dollars for a Senate to be arguing this nonsense.
"...but for the doctor to kill a live baby outside the womb is, indeed, murder."
1. It's not magically a baby just because it's been touched by air.
2. Not every death involves murder.
3. You'll pardon me if I don't grab another salt shaker for such a statement to be coming from a Right to Life advocate, who likely believes if it looks like a tadpole, it's still murder.
"No, if the fetus was not viable before the procedure and is not viable after the procedure, the doctor has no such obligation to dedicate herculean efforts to create viability where there was none before"
There's the crux of your case; 'as long as the baby isn't wanted, the doctor can kill it at whatever point is necessary'. What's a little thing called human rights got to do with it?
"1. It's not magically a baby just because it's been touched by air.
2. Not every death involves murder.
3. You'll pardon me if I don't grab another salt shaker for such a statement to be coming from a Right to Life advocate, who likely believes if it looks like a tadpole, it's still murder."
1; yes, it is. Once the baby is outside the womb it IS a human baby. Otherwise you are claiming it can be aborted beyond the delivery time. Which in every instance I've heard about would be considered murder. 2; not every death involves murder, correct. However, if a human being living outside the womb is killed for premeditated reasons, that would be considered murder. 3; I believe life begins at conseption, however I am forced to accept the law that allows aborting babies. That "right" is not present after the baby is delivered, and any attempt to kill it should be considered murder. For whatever reason!
If you kill a baby after it is born and you do not consider that murder... well, you simply have a severely tweeked thought pattern about life issues.
"'as long as the baby isn't wanted, the doctor can kill it at whatever point is necessary'."
You prove yet again that you do not grasp the concept of viability. Viability is not a synonym of the word "wanted." Please try again.
"The republicans that write these pieces of trash legislation for cases that happen 1 in 1,000,000 times are not only grandstanding for their pea-brained constituents, but they're wasting our tax dollars."
The democrats that voted to allow the partial birth abortion procedure...they spent how much time and money "grandstanding to their pea-brained constituents" for a procedure that has been required how many times?? Try (and I know this is tough for you) but try to differentiate between "required" and "performed". I wonder if you thought of that as you were writing your statement?
It sure seems to me that the fetus upon delivery and placement outside the womb should now be classified a human, even by liberal standards.
Of course it's "human". What else could it be ?
The question is: is it necessary to consider this soon-to-be-lifeless fetus an individual person with full rights ? Obama correctly points out the problems of doing so. This is too obvious, we're all aware of the tactics of the anti-choice faction to ban abortions. Obama nailed it.
"The question is: is it necessary to consider this soon-to-be-lifeless fetus an individual person with full rights ? Obama correctly points out the problems of doing so.... Obama nailed it."
Obama did only one thing- reinforce the liberal position that babies aren't babies until they are born. However, he advanced a new qualification; that the baby must survive the doctor who is killing it to aquire constitutional rights.
AGAIN! How long does a baby have to live outside the womb to qualify for constitutional rights; 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day or 1 week.
Because this new "qualification" that Obama states now will allow doctors to deliver a baby then kill it within "whatever" time frame and call it an abortion. Is that your stance and belief also? Allow delivery, then kill the baby?
Obama: "I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child."
AGAIN! How long does a baby have to live outside the womb to qualify for constitutional rights; 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day or 1 week.
The answer is ZERO.
If the fetus is considered "viable" by accepted medical standards it has constitutional rights while still in the womb. It's location is not the determining factor according to our current laws. Glad I could help.
For your help: I didn't ask when medical standards acknowledge the age of viability is.
That's a shame, because you should. You apparently have a very weak grasp on how American law addresses abortion in terms of viability, and viability is the key factor in whether or not abortions are permissable.
Apparently, you have a weak grasp of the difference that liberals decide between "live human baby" and "fetus".
Actually, it seems that YOU have the weak grasp. What drives your thinking ? Your religion ?
Viability has no meaning in either of those considerations by most liberals.
Not only are you incorrect and just making sh*t up, you are not a spokesperson for liberals. If you want to state your own personal opinions, fine. But you cannot legitimately speak for those who disagree with you.
Why didn't I answer ? Uh, maybe because I don't hang on the internet for 12 hours a day ? And because I didn't answer you decided to speak not only for me but for all "liberals" ?
I'm not interested in debating abortion with you. The subject of this MMFA article is very limited. If you want to stick to it, that's great.
"I'm not interested in debating abortion with you. The subject of this MMFA article is very limited. If you want to stick to it, that's great."
I have not gone off-topic. The topic is Obama's position on partial birth abortion and it's relationship to constitutional rights. I stated that I think a baby, once born, has all the constitutional rights everyone else does. I don't know what you're argueing because you elude the questions with reasons like; I'm not online. If you want to stay on-topic then talk about the issue at hand and not whether you are online or not.
We're talking about law, aren't we? Now you're whining about liberals? Have you lost your point, or are you intentionally trolling now?
Viability and its definition is the key factor that determines whether or not an abortion is legal in this country. Viability is the key factor that drives Obama's argument above. If you do not understand (or wish to remain willfully stupid regarding) the concept of viability during a pregnancy, you will not have one logical leg to stand on in any abortion argument. The smart pro-lifers know what viability is, how it applies to law, and they form their arguments around these facts. You're apparently not one of the smart ones.
"We're talking about law, aren't we? Now you're whining about liberals? Have you lost your point, or are you intentionally trolling now?"
Yes, we're talking about law. What does the law say about killing a child? What is the minimum age limit before a child is considered a human? If you can't answer the question and want to call me a troll because YOU can't answer, I fully understand.
"Viability and its definition is the key factor that determines whether or not an abortion is legal in this country. Viability is the key factor that drives Obama's argument above."
It is my opinion that Obama is argueing to pander to the liberal vote, because the human fetus is "viable" after 20 (or so) weeks of gestation. There have been LIVE births at that age, and the child continued to live. Since you think viability is the key, then you cannot support abortion past that time-frame since the human fetus is viable at that point. If you do support abortion past that time, then you support murder. (at least by YOUR standards). If Obama was argueing as you state, then he would be argueing to stop that procedure, not allow it.
The law, however, differs from your opinion. The law states abortions can be had up to the point of delivery. The law does NOT protect you from murder charges if you kill a baby after delivery. If the law does allow that, please point out which law it is.
"What does the law say about killing a child?"
The law says that children cannot be killed legally. The law says that pregnancies may be terminated when the fetus is not viable.
It's a word. It has a definition. Go look it up, call your doctor if you have any questions, and stop with the diarrhea of the keyboard that is proving that you are missing a key factor in any discussion of law and abortion.
"The law says that pregnancies may be terminated when the fetus is not viable."
Why don't you be honest and say when you are allowed to have an abortion? The law says you can have an abortion even if the fetus IS viable. Did you forget to mention that part of it? So, how do you differentiate between abortions when the fetus IS viable and when it is NOT viable? And that is what Obama is talking about when he refused to denounce partial birth abortions. That if viable abortions are taken away from your wide selection of choices, then you may actually have to bring a child or two into this world. Heaven forbid you should actually have to be responsible for a life you create, huh?? Oh, yeah...it's not a life until it's born. Duhhh!
"and stop with the diarrhea of the keyboard that is proving that you are missing a key factor in any discussion of law and abortion."
I'm not the one with runny-but. I'm beginning to think you don't even know what "key factor" means in relation to Obama's abortion denial. Heck, you can't even sort out the facts in relation to your own statements, let alone trying to figure out what a presidential candidate is saying.
If you asked me, Obama should have pushed for a compromise by insisting the appropriate language be inserted into the bill to cover his concerns. It does sound cold-blooded to think that if this should happen it’s ok to kill the baby. I’m all for a woman’s right to choose, but if she can’t make up her mind before something like this might happen, if it does, the onus should be on her and the physician to support the newborn’s life.
This is about the creepiest thread I’ve ever read here.
Well, I will give this to progressive Mike Gravel. He doesn't use cookie-cutter commercials. He makes his own, whatever the hell they mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZdAB4V_j8
Leather, there's another video on the same page you linked to discussing it.But that's not what you wanted, was it?
You liberals are funny (not the ha ha type). Mmfa posts a thread on Obama's stance on abortion and none of you can back up what you believe he said with facts. It's a sad state when you holler and whine to get abortions legal then can't even defend your position against a stupid conservative.
How can you defend Obama's position when you can't even defend your own?? I'll laugh every time I read any of you post that you support abortion and remember none of you can defend that support with fact. The many hard core liberals, who post here, are truly a danger to freedoms and constitutional rights in America when some of you state that an abortion cannot be performed after viability of the fetus. When you know that you demand abortions 'at will' during any point of the pregnacy for any reason imaginable. The danger part, you ask...that NONE of you corrected that poster. So, the facts are that you will lie/cheat as much as needed to force the American judicial system to allow your murdering of American children.
Thank you liberal America for having no balls to stand up to a simple conservative.
That's why I like coming back to these threads, especially the ones touching on the wingnuts' emotional issues.
Nothing beats the throwing down the gauntlet two days after a thread is completely dead. Especially with very vague and confused arguments. Nice work, Philib.