CNN online poll echoes smears by asking if Obama "show[s] the proper patriotism"
SUMMARY: A CNN online poll asked: "Does [Sen.] Barack Obama show the proper patriotism for someone who wants to be president of the United States?" The Politico's Ben Smith wrote: "[I]t's odd to see the mainstream media drive a largely whispered question that none of his main, named critics -- Hillary, McCain or the RNC -- will touch."
As Politico senior political writer Ben Smith noted, on February 24, an online poll at CNN.com asked: "Does [Sen.] Barack Obama show the proper patriotism for someone who wants to be president of the United States?" Smith wrote: "I've got to say, I've never seen a reader poll like this on a mainstream media website (or, to be honest, a right-wing blog). ... [I]t's odd to see the mainstream media drive a largely whispered question that none of his main, named critics -- [Sen.] Hillary [Clinton], [Sen. John] McCain or the RNC -- will touch."
With the poll question, CNN.com lent legitimacy to a smear campaign directed at Obama. CNN.com noted that a reporter questioning Obama at a campaign event about charges by conservatives and Republicans that he is "unpatriotic" "cited the fact that Obama once failed to put his hand over his heart while singing the national anthem." CNN itself noted that Obama "has been the subject of various debunked rumors," including the false assertion that Obama is a Muslim. The Associated Press cited Republican operatives encouraging attacks on Obama's patriotism.
Media Matters for America has noted several instances in which conservative media figures have promoted questions about Obama's patriotism, pointing to his choice not to wear U.S. flag pins and a photo showing Obama without his hand over his heart during a playing of the national anthem. Obama said in October 2007 that he had decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism." In an October 3 interview with ABC affiliate KCRG-TV in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Obama explained: "I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism." As Snopes.com pointed out when a chain email began circulating containing a photograph of Obama standing without his hand over his heart during a playing of the national anthem, the Obama campaign subsequently released photographs of Obama with his hand over his heart during the national anthem.
That is really so disgusting. What the F is "proper Patriotism". CNN should pull this poll now. Does McCain show "proper Patriotism" for supporting an immoral war?
Look who's talking! All you do is call people morons when you cannot win an argument. And then you have the nerve to call someone a troll, and that they're here to provoke! Ha!
You want substance - let me try -
...he will not wear a flag pin..
I don't either. I still consider myself patriotic. Wrapping yourself in the flag doesn't mean squat.
...instead of putting his hand over his heart during the national anthem, he grabs his privates..
Lie.
...he puts his wife Omarosa out there to announce how ashamed she is of her country..
She said she was never MORE proud of her country.
...he hangs out with domestic terrorists whose goal is to destroy America..
Probably a reference to his church. Funny, I haven't seen his pastor on the campaign trail.
...he decorates his campaign offices with Che memorabilia...remember, Che said he wanted to kill millions of Americans..
?????
...yeah..he's really patriotic, ain't he?
Let me guess, Stranger. Today you put on your US flag shirt complete with flag pin and your "Don't mess with the US" hat. You then get into your pick-up truck emblazoned with dozens of yellow ribbons and support the troops bumper stickers. Before starting the engine, you say the pledge of allegiance. Then you pop in your Lee Greenwood tape and head off to the convenience store, where you get your daily supply of whiskey, cigarettes, twinkies, and porn magazines in prepraration for another long day of trolling from your parents' basement.
OH MY GOD! Where did you find THAT picture??? Is it doctored or does he REALLY not have his hand on his heart? This guy deserves to be in PRISON not in The White House!
Then there's the Bush version.
Looks like it's a habit.
My only guess is that his doctors have told him that the discomfort he's feeling all the time from eating all those Texas tacos is "only heartburn" - So the idiot must think, "das where the heart mus be".
I don't think it is fair to call Obama an idiot for "not knowing where the heart is."
That's not the entire quote, and you know it. I do believe you left out the qualifier, "really" in front of proud.
Stranger, at this moment Barack Obama is having his automobile painted in an American flag motif. He has just ordered a box of American flag underwear. Instead of wearing an American flag pin he is having a new wardrobe of suits cut from American flags. The real humor in all this is that if these things were true yahoos on the right would nod, teary-eyed, in approval of Obama's superficial displays of patriotism. You and the right wing nut crowd are laughable...
BTW, might as well get used to a Democrat in the White House because your posts are nothing but whistling through the graveyard. The Republican Party is a train wreck and this silly crap isn't going to make one bit of difference come November.
Your posts, like your adult diapers, smell.
Stranger, I see you haven't found paradise yet.
By the way, Senator McCain never tried to escape his captors..why is that.....did he like it there.....did he give up and let those bad guys beatup and torture other captives....You see this type of BS is sensless and a terrible affront towards these candidates. And you sir, are just wasting your computer strokes. Do you know how to think? Please answer or I will never talk to you again. And since I am a liar, I will tell you that my statement about being a liar is a lie. Figure that one out..and please, don't let your head explode because the only thing that will come out are little faces of Rush.
And this, by far is the best part:
The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section 8d): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
I also love the photo in the "flag violations in the news" of President Bush and first Lady Laura Bush standing on the American flag, "Section 8b of the Flag Code reads, 'The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground...'"
And just to make sure the point sticks, "According to the Flag Code, a flag is a flag or anything 'by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag.'"
If you wear a lapel pin, you are dishonoring the flag, period.
And this, by far is the best part:
The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section 8d): "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."
And this is even a better part. You must have missed or simply decided to ignore Section 8j of The Flag Code...which explicity deals with the rules for wearing the flag pin:
The Flag Code is quite specific about where to wear it. Section 8j of the Flag Code [see below] reads:
(I guess technically Barry isn't supposed to wear the pin since he is a Democart )
No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform
Oh Crap, someone call the Harlem Globetrotters! They're in danger of being arrested by the flag police!
If you wear a lapel pin, you are dishonoring the flag, period
...except that you're not...
See Code, Title 36, Chapter 20, Section 176(J)
Somebody actually read a little more of the web page than I did. It’s good to know that some things you post might actually be factually accurate.:) Thanks for pointing it out, really.
OK, now please find out if I can get put in jail for not playing by the rules. They say ignorance is no excuse for the law – and now you got me worried. Not sure if you remember but military apparel was big in the Vietnam era, especially amongst us “hippies”. I was never in the military but wore a dress blue AF lieutenant jacket for years that I picked up at Goodwill during a trip out west in 1970. It has a flag on the sleeve below the stripes. I was gonna give it to a nephew, but maybe I should burn the evidence?
Somebody actually read a little more of the web page than I did. It’s good to know that some things you post might actually be factually accurate.:) Thanks for pointing it out, really.
Now apply this to all of our discussions...you might learn something:)
stranger wrat:
>>Now apply this to all of our discussions...you might learn something:)
Oh wow! That is rich. In the past you link to web pages that actually refute the argument are trying to make, and then you lecture others on reading links?
By the way, have you learned how to calculate a percentage yet? How's the book going on Vince Foster?
Oh wow! That is rich. In the past you link to web pages that actually refute the argument are trying to make, and then you lecture others on reading links?
(Sigh) I should know better than this..OK...just how exactly does the linked web page refute my argument?
stranger wrat:
>>(Sigh) I should know better than this..OK...just how exactly does the linked web page refute my argument?
Do you have a reading problem? Apparently so. Here's what I wrote:
>> In the past you link to web pages that actually refute the argument
Notice the "in the past" phrase? But what can I expect. You can't read your own links, and you can't read what I posted.
Of course, what can you expect from a wingnut who thinks that Clinton murdered Vince Foster, or one who can't even calculate a percentage.
What, how to be Ratfink crybaby?
Wonder why our little exchange in this thread from yesterday has suddenly disappeared? Hmm. Could it be someone likes to dish it out but can't take it themselves?
Wonder why our little exchange in this thread from yesterday has suddenly disappeared?
I'm not surprised my post was deleted. It sure got the panties of quite a few in a bunch when I pointed out certain things about Barry Hussein. A lot of invective was tossed my way.
The fact that yours was deleted is probably because it was pretty offensive with all the references to onanism and sex organs and all that.
stranger wrat:
>>The fact that yours was deleted is probably because it was pretty offensive
As was apparently your post as well. All the invective thrown your way? What a little cry baby! You come on the boards trolling, and then you complain about invective? Oh, yes, stranger, your posts are always so reasonable and free of invective.
I have seen posts in here far more offensive and with much more graphic sexual connotations than what I wrote. My post was specifically directed at YOU and prefaced with a comment that specifically labeled it as a direct satire of YOUR post.
Where your post was funny to only you, mine was funny to most everyone BUT you. It just seems a bit unlikely that anyone other than YOU would have flagged my post or objected to my mildly rough humor - and I don't think you could convince me otherwise. It’s sad that I now have to walk on my tiptoes around here because I “offended” someone like you. Now that's something that's really laughable.
The truth is that Obama is the embodiment of patriotism. His life is testament to the American values of tolerance and inclusion that make this country great. He's the child of an immigrant, he's a guy of mixed race and he's the leading presidential candidate. As he has repeatedly stated, only in America can his story be told.
He lives it.
What do you have? A flag made in China hanging in your front yard?
come on! Obama's resume may not be the most robust one but he certainly did more than that in the state legislature. do your homework yoyo.
As a state legislator, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws.[36] He sponsored a law enhancing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare.[37] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.[37]
The very fact that this would even bother you is very un-American.
Please explain to us why this would not be a good thing for any politician to promote?
According to Wikipedia this is the proper protocol when The Star Spangled Banner is played:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner
Apparently the hand is placed over the heart only when the flag is not present. Was the flag present when Obama was photographed not placing his hand over his heart?
Protocol
When the song is performed in public, the US National Anthem Code, adopted in 1942, specifies the etiquette rules for playing and responding to the song. The audience members are expected to face the American flag if one is displayed, and stand in an attitude of respectful attention.[7] If the flag is not present, the audience faces the direction of the music and still stands in a respectful attention with their hand over their heart.[8]
People in uniform, including military personnel, fire service and law enforcement officers, are expected to salute or "present arms" during the national anthem from the first note and hold the salute until the last note is played. People not in military or other uniforms are expected to remove their hats and stand with respect and face the flag if present.[8]
By Golly, Stranger's right.
And did anyone see this same non-sense being spewed on Bill Maher Friday? It's funny how Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) wasn't wearing a flag lapel-pin AS HE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT OBAMA NOT WEARING ONE.
Stranger, you wearing a flag lapel pin right now? I've got 6 on. And 20 American flag bumper stickers. Plus I've applied body paint so that I'm a walking flag.
Everyone, it's no use arguing with Stranger, his world-view is so incredibly skewed he thinks Richard Armitage was a lifelong Democrat. pay him no mind.
If Stranger's right, then why does GWB hate america?
http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/hannity-20071023-obama.jpg
It's funny how Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) wasn't wearing a flag lapel-pin AS HE WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT OBAMA NOT WEARING ONE.
That's the first thing I noticed when he said that and for some reason Maher didn't point that out.
The hypocrite has no businesss talking about somebody else's outward appearance of patriotism if he ain't willing to make that same outward appearance.
I know, Stranger -- it's unforgivable. Tantamount to flag-burning. No, terrorism. I mean, clearly Obama was trying to disrespect America. Why else would he sing along to the national anthem rather than place his hand over his heart?
I've heard enough, Stranger. You've convinced me. Let me know when your lynching party will be convening. (Metaphorically, of course.)
I know, Stranger -- it's unforgivable. Tantamount to flag-burning. No, terrorism. I mean, clearly Obama was trying to disrespect America. Why else would he sing along to the national anthem rather than place his hand over his heart?
Well...you got me there...except for the fact that the video in the link shows Barry Hussein just standing there with his hands over his private parts...and NOT SINGING..
No need to agree to disagree. I just looked at the video and he clearly is singing along. No opinion involved, only the ability (and willingness, which some apparently do not have) to use one's eyes.
Flag? What flag?
Stranger, do you think that flag in the picture was made by this company?http://xiangyingtextile.en.alibaba.com/product/50109929/51675569/National_Flag_State_Flag/National_Flag/showimg.html
Define "proper patriotism." Is it patriotic to go along with what the President wants? Is it patriotic to disagree with him? How about demanding accountability from our elected officials? Or wanting honesty from the media? What about defending the Bill of Rights? Or defending spying on Americans without a warrant because it is "necessary" for fighting terrorism? Here's a good one: is defending our right to free expression patriotic? ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.")
The current administration has, among other things, designated "free speech zones" as the only places protesters can gather during Bush appearances and wants to legislate retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies that knowingly broke the law. Is it patriotic to defend these actions? HOW can you defend them and still be patriotic?
The entire poll is bogus. I wonder who designed it.
I think that McCain's service in the US military is really above reproach. As for his record in the Senate, and whatever else he's done in public life, well, that's ALL fair game. I would take umbrage with anyone who makes light of his service in the US military, or his time as a POW.
All of this talk of "proper Patriotism" is of course, as others have said, ridiculous. Look at Bush. He wraps himself in the flag every chance that he gets, yet has no qualms about wiping his butt with the Constitution. But hey, he's got an American flag lapel pin, so that's something.
I think you're right about McCain's millitary service. Which Republican was it that claimed he was called "Canary" because he spilled secrets during interrogation? How honest and admirable of them.
I wonder if the question is a smear
Yes it is, precisely because it legitimized the question, that is, it makes it legitimate to question Obama's patriotism.
Try some alternatives to see the point:
- Is Barack Obama a secret Muslim?
- Is Hillary Clinton a lesbian?
What about John McCain? His reputation as a hero resides in the fact that he was shot down while bombing North Vietnam, was captured, and survived torture in a POW camp. During the 2000 campaign, some rumors circulated both that he had been a collaborator while a POW and that the torture had left him emotionally unstable. And he does have a reputation for having quite a temper. So imagine a story that referenced those rumors and attached a poll asking
- Is John McCain a collaborator?
- Is John McCain emotionally stable enough to be president?
- Does John McCain's temper make him unfit to be president?
Are any of those questions unfair and a smear? If so, then the one at issue about Obama is unfair and a smear.
If they are all fair and not smears, then anything, the wildest unsubstantiated rumors, can be presented as serious issues worthy of reasoned consideration.
Or how about this one, a classic Rove smear:
"Would you be less likely to vote for John McCain if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?"
That's called push-polling, and it's exactly what CNN is doing here. It's a truly Machiavellian tactic. We know that Rove has no conscience, but somebody at CNN should have caught this and complained before it was published.
It's indisputable fact that the push-poll smear happened. It's simply the source of it that can't be absolutely proven. Speculation naturally has been focused on the individual who most benefitted from the tactic. There is no doubt who that was.
A more false statement has never been written. There is no evidence whatsoever..-James Hansen's testimony wouldn't count:)-...that it happened.
Don't try to conflate that with other push polls that dealt directly with McCain's stance on issues.
This is nothing more than a typical left wing smear.
It's what they do. It's all they have
I know this is futile in dealing with you...but cite your evidence
I'm not sure what you're trying to claim. Are you claiming that a rumor that McCain had an illegitimate black child did NOT spread in South Carolina before their 200 primary? News stories from that time reported it. The rumor was definitely already in circulation when Bob Jones University professor Richard Hand sent out emails repeating it. Or are you simply denying the source of the rumor as being the method of telephone push polling? That would be in contradiction of the recipients of such calls calling McCain campaign headquarters (names were provided, though most didn't leave their names) to ask about them and reporting them to news agencies at the time. Contrary to what the want-to-be-true-believers contend, York's analysis did not disprove the event. It's beyond credibility that you're trying to contend that McCain wasn't severely damaged by false rumors spread about an illegitimate black child and that his wife was a drug addict.
I'd love to see your evidence that this is a "left wing smear." Show me that it's more than just something you very much want to believe.
Where is any evidence that this was begun by a Rove push poll?
I stated "It's indisputable fact that the push-poll smear happened. It's simply the source of it that can't be absolutely proven."
You replied "A more false statement has never been written. There is no evidence whatsoever ... that it happened."
I provided evidence that it happened. I didn't state that it was begun by Rove. I challenged you to support your silly comment that it was a left wing smear, so now you're just trying to divert the discussion.
You NEVER know what you are talking about. Of COURSE it happened.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/
Having run Senator John McCain's campaign for president, I can recount a textbook example of a smear made against McCain in South Carolina during the 2000 presidential primary. We had just swept into the state from New Hampshire, where we had racked up a shocking, 19-point win over the heavily favored George W. Bush. What followed was a primary campaign that would make history for its negativity.
It didn't take much research to turn up a seemingly innocuous fact about the McCains: John and his wife, Cindy, have an adopted daughter named Bridget. Cindy found Bridget at Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangladesh, brought her to the United States for medical treatment, and the family ultimately adopted her. Bridget has dark skin.
Anonymous opponents used "push polling" to suggest that McCain's Bangladeshi born daughter was his own, illegitimate black child. In push polling, a voter gets a call, ostensibly from a polling company, asking which candidate the voter supports. In this case, if the "pollster" determined that the person was a McCain supporter, he made statements designed to create doubt about the senator.
Thus, the "pollsters" asked McCain supporters if they would be more or less likely to vote for McCain if they knew he had fathered an illegitimate child who was black. In the conservative, race-conscious South, that's not a minor charge. We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made. Effective and anonymous: the perfect smear campaign
Some aspects of this smear were hardly so subtle. Bob Jones University professor Richard Hand sent an e-mail to "fellow South Carolinians" stating that McCain had "chosen to sire children without marriage." It didn't take long for mainstream media to carry the charge. CNN interviewed Hand and put him on the spot: "Professor, you say that this man had children out of wedlock. He did not have children out of wedlock." Hand replied, "Wait a minute, that's a universal negative. Can you prove that there aren't any?"
I posted this at C&L this morning about this "story"...
To keep my 3 year old busy every morning I have her sit at the computer and click the “No” option of the CNN Quick Poll as many times she’s willing to keep at it - just like anyone else could be doing.
Why do they allow a poll that doesn’t even bother to track multiple votes from the same IP address to be posted on a “reputable” News Channel website? The idiot who initiated this nonsense, Lou Dobbs, proudly displays his daily “Quick Poll” results like a badge of honor. Worse yet 90% of his questions are worded in such a way that only Fidel Castro would vote differently than for the results Dobbs wants to obtain.
The MSM is really getting to be one big JOKE!
To keep my 3 year old busy every morning I have her sit at the computer and click the “No” option of the CNN Quick Poll as many times she’s willing to keep at it - just like anyone else could be doing.
Hey Cleve, if you had her do that for THIS Poll question she was voting NO, Obama does not show the proper patriotism to be President.
Oops! ;-)
I'm glad you mentioned that; I have a little wager. If a Democrat wins the White House, how many hours before the Professional Liars like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly SUDDENLY discover that it is, after all, patriotic to criticize the President during time of war. Will they wait a full day before vilifying the new commander in chief? Maybe two days?
Oh, and speaking of PigBoy Limbaugh.... I noticed today that he referred to the Republican Party as "we" when talking about the necessity of defeating the Democrats in November. I guess he got over his "conservative principles", and is once again toting the GOP's water, just as he's paid to do.
Criticism of the government and it's policies can be and at times is patriotic.
TOMMY: "Are you saying the "value of patriotism" is worthless?"
Considering the way it's been cheapened by those on the right I'd say patriotism is vastly overrated.
Why not err on the side of caution and just blacklist he/she?
Pride/love for one's country.
Not hard Governor, for most of us.
It's possible to love you're country and not be proud of it at the same time.
A patriotic American, would work towards regaining the pride they once had by voicing their outrage at the direction the country has been taken by those who have redefined patriotism to exclude people who have proven their patriotism.
how utterly patronising, and how very familiar. Wow, you are ignoring my point. Patriotism rises above policy? Very fancy rhetoric, tommy, but failing to answer any questions. Are you excusing US policy on the basis of patriotism? what exactly is the point of your definition? I agree, patriotism doesnt just relate to policy, it relates to everything in your country. Many germans for a long time did not promote open patriotism because they were ashamed of their countries war.
I assume what you mean is, i know the US did some bad things, but i love my country becuase im patriotic (or, i'm patriotic and therefore i love my country). I put it to you that saying 'i love my country' is totally meaningless. When i hear it, i want to ask, what aspect are we referring to?
To you it's meaningless, I could care less what your opinion of patriotism is......to you it's bashing the US because of policy, and I am telling you patriotism is not policy dependent or policy driven. It is love of country, pure and simple. You want to make it about our foreign policy, then go ahead.
Your definitions of the word do not interest me. I have already explained mine.
what are you even talking about? with your circular arguments? you said 'love of ones country despite its flaws' or similar. What is the difference between taht, and excusing the flaws in your country because of an abstract 'love for you country.' You can't answer the question, because you dont understand the concept.
When i see the all blacks playing, i feel pride in my country (despite the world cup loss). when i see people dying from cancer because my government is too scared to lose the tax it makes on selling cigarettes, i am ashamed of my country (more specifically, the government). I am able to make these distinctions and i won't hide behind airy fairy arguments about patriotism. That would just be ignorant. But go ahead and ignore what i'm saying, i'm sure you know best lol.
Al Frank put it something like this:
"Conservatives love their country like a child loves its mommy... with unquestioningly, overlooking flaws. Liberals love their country like adults love... knowing their are flaws and loving them despite that."
Disingenuous? Did I say it? Ahh, no.
It's a little tiring to hear liberals constantly complaining about how they can't use this word, or that word anymore because of the evil rightwing's hijacking of all these words. That is absurd, and nothing but a cop out. Have a little backbone and take these co-opted words back then, stop being such whiny ninnies and let the other side define you so emphatically. If the liberal or their party is that weak they won't even fight for true definitions of certain words, it's nobody's fault but their own.
It's true...I agree with you, they should take back those words, hence the "re-redefine the words." They just chose my second option more often than not.
Of course, it doesn't help to have a whole news network dedicated to doing just what I described.
"Have a little backbone and take these co-opted words back then, stop being such whiny ninnies and let the other side define you so emphatically. "
I suppose you think that's easy in this day and age of Republican leadership, right-wing dominated airwaves and a moronic, sensationalist, 24-hour televised media that's more than willing to give airtime to any right-wing smear monger armed with every talking point in the book?
"Limbaugh and the rest are impotent"
Too bad their ratings don't reflect it.
Too bad the "liberal" media either does not agree with or has not heard your declaration.
Ann Coulter is still getting guest appearances on cable and the networks.
Bill O'Reilly still #1 on cable.
Matt Drudge continually being sourced.
The head of Citizens United Not Timid able to get face time with Tucker.
and on and on...
Yeah, I look around and I see more and more examples of how the right wing is losing it's ability to impugn the patriotism of people they don't like.
Get Real.
Thanks for ignoring every example I gave just to rationalize poor ineffective liberals. Classic.
I would say you should get real and realize it's not the evil rightwingers at all, but your own party, your own ideology, and your own house that needs looking after.
But I know, it's far easier to blame the other side than to take responsibility for one's own failures.
I would say you should get real and realize it's not the evil rightwingers at all, but your own party, your own ideology, and your own house that needs looking after.
I think the right-wing needs some introspection. Most of the public is on our side even if they don't want to call themselves liberals.
"Thanks for ignoring every example I gave"
I did no such thing, and you distorted or ignored every example that I gave.
I am talking about the impugning of patriotism, something that should offend every American and something that you apparently want to deny the existence of and instead blame it on liberals for being "whiny".
When I mentioned Republican leadership, I was not talking about congressional majorities, since it's a proven fact that it doesn't take a majority for a Republican congressman to impugn on another American's patriotism, all it takes is the platform that their position entitles them to.
"But I know, it's far easier to blame the other side than to take responsibility for one's own failures."
Look no further than the pro-Iraq-war GOP, their media minions, and the their continued impugning on people's patriotism. I can think of no more greater example of transferring blame.
Well I am not talking about that. I could care less what political parties do to words to win elections, it is irrelevant to me. And I have no interest in whining about it one way or another in order to rationalize failure, which is what liberals continue to do whenever they feel trumped by some rightwing manipulation of a word in the English language. It is ridiculous.
If patriotism is so easily raked over the coals by your political opponent and as a result it has been rendered useless to you, then that is entirely your fault. Take it back then, show how it has been manipulated and how repulsive that is, instead of whining about it, thus belittling the word and saying it doesn't have meaning anymore.
That is absurd.
If patriotism is so easily raked over the coals by your political opponent and as a result it has been rendered useless to you, then that is entirely your fault.
It's been rendered worthless because conservatives see it as a way to gain politically. Conservatives should stop bǻstardizing patriotism.
We can always leave it to Tommy to make an utterly ridiculous argument wrought with circular logic dressed up as if it were an intelligent point.
Your whole argument here boils down to the political equivalent of "she was asking for it, she was wearing a short skirt."
As for your definition of patriotism, what is it if not based on the actions, deeds, and principles of the country? Blind, home-teamism? If that's all it is, why does it have to be at the country level? Should I be patriotic about my state, my town, my neighborhood? If I'm running for president of my HOA, should I wear some sort of neighborhood lapel pin to prove my patriotism? It's absurd.
Is that the predominent feeling on the left
Patriotism measured in terms of wearing flag pins, having your hand over your heart during the national anthem, and the like is worthless, dangerous, and overrated, all three. It is a hollow "patriotism," a shell that prefers form to substance and too easily, as we have seen over the last several years, slides from "patriotism" into jingoism.
(And no, don't bother claiming I said wearing a flag pin, etc., is "hollow," as that would be the reverse of my argument. I in no way denied that such actions could be outward expressions of a deeper commitment; I said that a patriotism measured in those terms rather than by that deeper commitment is hollow. And it is.)
You want my understanding of patriotism? Well, maybe not but here it is anyway:
In addition to embracing the comment I read some years ago that "it is natural to have an abiding affection for the land of one's birth," I say being an US patriot means being dedicated to the ideals on which the country was supposed to have been founded and which, at its best moments, it strives to uphold to as full a measure as possible: Ideals such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," as the right to rebellion against oppression, as "promot[ing] the general welfare," as political freedoms, as representative government "of, by, and for the people" - the ideal of, to sum up in a single phrase, an intent to "establish justice," a justice I say must include the economic and the social as well as the political if it is to have real meaning.
(Another sidebar: Yes, I know "one of these things is not like the others" in the above list. Don't waste our time with irrelevant quibbles.)
Patriotism, that is, lies in the devotion to the ideals, not in any symbolic outward expression of it. Further, patriotism thus does not lie in support for or opposition to any particular administration or any particular policy except insofar as that support or opposition is an expression of that internal commitment to those ideals. An opponent of the Iraq war who is angered by the Executive branch's usurpation of power is much more patriotic than a war supporter who keeps referring to the president as "the commander-in-chief" as if we were all soldiers expected to obey orders rather than citizens with the obligation held by any free people to "question authority."
I do not wear a flag pin. I do not put my hand over my heart during the national anthem (which, I'll note in passing, I was taught as a child was something that some folks did but was not required). I do not sing along with the national anthem. In fact - and I know this will promote ammo for some and lead others to say I undermine my argument, but I don't care, it's the truth - I don't even stand up for the national anthem. (Not intending to give offense thereby, I usually manage to be out of the room at the time.)
But if patriotism can be understood as embracing the ideals of our nation, as striving to hold this country to the highest of those ideals instead of the lowest of its prejudices, as committing to a notion of what the US, of what we as a people, can be and have at times approached being, then I submit that I am as patriotic as they come. And I have neither patience with nor tolerance for those who would make patriotism a matter of gestures and decorations rather than conviction.
Do you really think anybody owes you an explanation?
Stamp your feet and hold your breath until you get the answer you want.
Classic.
Patriotism is the erroneous belief that your country is better than everyone elses simply because you were born there.
When my country lives up to its ideals, upholds its laws and acts as an example of positive change in the world, I am proud.
All other times I am not.
Tired of sitting on the sidelines and just reading, I have to jump in...so please be gentle with me! :)
Anyone notice the photo of former Pres. GHWB endorsing Sen. McCain? You can find it at MSNBC...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23222576/displaymode/1176/rstry/23222046/
I don't see a pin on either lapel.
So, echoing so many who have posted it before me...
Why do Pres. GHWB and Sen. McCain hate America?
After reading the Stranger' s ( and getting stranger by the minute) post I would like to advance the SOP that any of his/her posts be ignored as he is not going to advance a sensible theory, nor is he likely to absorb any fact explained to him/her although people have tried in very small words, and last there are adults here that are talking, thinking, and debating.
The Stranger should be sent to the kid's table with the rest of the NewCon's on the board.
I don't think we should flag him/her/them or anyone else. Let them rant.
I am just saying let's put them in a corner and ignore them like any unruly child. It is unseemly for adults to argue with children. One should know better and the other is blissfully ignorant of the "facts" of which them speak. Seldomn does it do either side any good.
Yeah, know what you mean. I'd feel bad to if - ! Oh, look at that! They've got mezcal here!
Who were we talking about again? ;)
Wouldn't a more relevant discussion be about the thousands of American flags that have draped the caskets of U.S. servicemen returning from Iraq?
What people like Strnger fail to grasp is that they are preaching to all the yahoos in their own Amen corner. Normal Americans (the only descriptive term I can think of) are tired of this superficial crap. Patriotism is not determined by how many American flags you fly, how many flag pins you wear on your coat or any other symbolic gestures that have diminished the true meaning of dedication to one's country. You can keep selling this crap for only so long before people quit buying...
I love the warped world of radical right-wingers. They put on their American flag pins and proclaim their patriotism while ignoring homeless veterans, ignoring the conditions of wounded veterans, sending more of kids to die for nation-building in Iraq, fighting to keep sick American kids from getting health coverage, denigrating the service of veterans like John Kerry or Max Cleeland, pissing on the Costitution by allowing warrantless spying and removal of habeas corpus, disenfranchising voters, etc.
They simply have a very different (and warped) concept of what it means to be an American. For them it is not about who you can build up but who you can put down and keep under your thumb. That is what measure the greatness of the nation for them.
It's an odd Poll question even for CNN, but I'd guess they might be running out of good ideas?
Anyone know the results of the Poll? I'm just curious.
Why do I bother to ask a serious question here? ;-)
Hey guys it's MONDAY not FRIDAY...
Ok, once again, does anyone know? Not that it's scientific by any means, but depending on the result one could probably figure out which side votes on these Polls.
34% believe Obama is the Anti-Christ predicted by Nostradamus to bring about the end of the world in December 2012.
Hey what the hell, I can play too ;-)
Can you be more specific about the date in December?
I don't want to waste money buying Holiday Gifts if Doomsday precedes the Holiday.
It's not the money I'm worried about. I know I can't take it with me.
I just don't want to spend the last few weeks of my life shopping.
Hey King it's Dec. 21st. So the good news is NO Shopping!
The bad news is, well ya know ;-)
I don't know about that dbeden. IF the Poll was pulling in more NO's you could figure more Republicans were voting or a few were voting over & over again. Or Clinton supporters were busy weighing in.
Again, nothing scientific, just a thought.
Jeter, the only results I could find was on freerepublic.
Yes 63% 32084 No 37% 18590
Total Votes: 50674
No surprise they think the results were skewed - against them!
Either way - The poll proves NOTHING. What "side" first hear about the poll? What "side" was better at getting the word out to more "voters" that the poll existed? What "side" had more idiots willing to sit there clicking for their side the longest? It's a friggin' joke - The bigger joke would be the idiot pundits at other media outlets that would start harping about "a recent CNN Poll" found blah, blah, blah. I doubt they would even use the words "Quick Poll" - they'd just say Poll.. CNN does do valid polls, so it's easy to dupe a listener - but these stupid "Quick Polls" are NOT valid.
It's just disgusting and disgraceful that CNN would use these "Quick Polls". They know they are worthless and bogus and they still keep posting them.
he pollls USED to have small print at the bottom of each polling page that read, “This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.”
I don't even see that today - maybe I'm missing something. At any rate even this disclaimer did not address the reason the poll is unscientific or the fact that users can vote as many times as they wish. This is one of those "there should be a law against that" deals.
The story went up on Crooks and Liars this morning and before there were 40 responses the poll was gone. CNN had to have got a $hitload of negative response for it (as this thread shows) - and so took it down.
If anyone knows otherwise I'd be interested in hearing myself.
Perhaps we should question his ability to lead??? Perhaps we could question the cultism of his campaign that avoids things like how he is going to pay for Utopia?
NO that would actually accomplish something.
Pins...pins and yellow support our troops, expecially all of the DEAD ONES is what patriotism is about while you drive your Hummers and SUV's.
American Idol anyone??? Gee I want my choice to win ..at any cost
If patriotism means "my country right or wrong" then patriotism is useless.
With our national institutions in disarray (health care education etc), I wonder what are people patriotic about? In a poll, the military was the most respected of our institutions. I want my country to be great but we seem to heading the wrong way in so many areas(including the military). Maybe I am too negative , or just see the deficits. Somebody please tell me some national institutions to be proud of.
CNN is getting as bad Fox these days, it's a sad day when the most accurate news coverage you can find is on comedy central.
If Republicans think their base has rallied around McCain since he’s been hit with the most recent valid ethical charges – they can’t imagine how the Democrats will rally around their candidate for a PHONY smear. ONE swift-boat- Carl-Rove-driven campaign was enough. "We're Fired Up … Ready to Go!"
It seems to me that Tommy is trying to insinuate people on this website are not patriotic because of the backlash we offer against people accusing obama of being unpatriotic. I guess it goes along the lines of 'please don't feed the troll,' but i would be interested to hear tommy's take on 'patriotism' and the value of wearing a lapel with an image of the American flag. Does that lapel consitute patriotism? What is patriotism? Pride in your country? I imagine everyone on this website is proud of aspects of teh United States. But that doesn't mean you're unpatriotic if you don't support American imperialism, or if you dont support the war, of if you don't support a permanent war economy etc etc.
" and the value of wearing a lapel with an image of the American flag. Does that lapel consitute patriotism? What is patriotism?"
-TomJoad
Go back to the beginning of this thread and read my first post...
Insinuate? I asked a simple question of clarification, if it hit a nerve with you or others here don't blame me for that.
Yes yes. You're totally innocent Tommy...
I don't think anyone buys your "li'l ol' me?" schtick.
TOMMY: I’m not sure how many women posters there are in this thread, but I think the vast majority are guys. Compare the outrage here to an insult to your masculinity. It’s like parts of Texas where if you don’t wear a big belt buckle or cowboy boots you’re a faq. You KNOW it’s a ridiculous charge and you would become outraged at such a suggestion. This whole flag on lapel crap is much the same. I don’t like these “cowboys” telling me I’m any less patriotic for not wearing a flag than telling me that I’m any less a man for not wearing a wide belt buckle and cowboy boots, OK?
My rant about pussyboots Ted Nugent yesterday is of a very similar vein. The guy can wave his machine gun in the air as a “patriot” while 35 years ago he admittedly literally pissed and crapped his pants for 2 weeks to avoid the draft. A perfect example of a proud brave conservative “patriot” – and he gets a boost from the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh – a few other military madness “patriots” who NEVER served a day of their life for their country yet rant and rave to me that I “hate the troops” because I don’t support a bogus war. I will, and encourage everyone I come in contact with, use every means possible to expose these idiots for the cowards, woosies, and corporate tools they are.
America has been and done many beautiful things - and also the opposite.
Republicans accuses Democrats of not being grown up. (I'm neither, and/or - in another way - both.) Any of us unwilling to own responsibility for the dark and the ugly part of us is not yet fully grown up?
A man far smarter than almost all of the rest of us once said:
"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race."
Albert Einstein
Now maybe Einstein is a little strong in his wording, but it seems this is an important perspective worth more attention than it gets.
...Not well written, but I do hope these ideas get out more widely than they seem to have (yet)
It is interesting that Jonah Goldberg calls liberals"fascists" yet they want to say that Obama is not "patriotic" enough.
Somehow I see a contradiction.
Speaking of fascism, I saw that idiot Jonah Goldberg on the idiot Glenn Beck's show, and they were discussing Jonah's new screed. They were lamenting the "fact" that Liberals use charges of Fascism to shut down debate, while they were discussing Jonah's book which accuses Liberals of being Fascists. The sad thing is that they are probably unaware of their profound hypocrisy.
Beck has had Jonah Goldberg on his show numerous times promoting his “Liberal Fascism” book. Beck is so overrun with the thought of an opportunity to be able to say “see I’m not a Fascist” that he has actually promoted reading Goldberg’s book over his own – and would have Goldberg on his show promoting his book every day to boost this false perception he has of himself, if he could.
Hey, whatever they gotta do to live with themselves I guess. Once again, it’s like Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure... “I know you are but what am I?”
I think I’m going to write a book called “Conservative Socialism” under the pen name Glenn Goldberg that points out all the “free-rides” that are provided to the wealthy and corporate America.:)
Where do you take the "are you a proper patriot" test? I want to know if I'm presidential material. These people make me sick.
sno0py woofed:
>>Here's a good place to "test" your patriotism!
I scored a negative 3. Seriously. I was told that before I buy a one-way ticket to Tibet, I might want to try to change things rather than complain. But one of the questions was what I think of war protestors, and I answered that they rule. So isn't that trying to change things?
Another RRR? (Republican Racist Rant)
Was it a lie or patrotism that led us to Iraq? Was it patriotic to out a covert CIA agent? Is it patriotic to give cronies no-bid contracts? Is it patriotic to spy on Americans? Is it patriotic to let the republicans continue to practice divisive politics and divide this country?
an independent voice/independent voter!
So I missed the flag lapel pin part of the flag code (though I'd swear there is no 8j...there's only 4 sentences.) But here is a good pic of Larry Craig.
I believe that's his mug shot.
The republicans talking about patriotism what a joke that is are these the same guys that are constantly trying to get our constitution changed, who walk all over our bill of rights and make a mockery out of our legal system and international law. And by all accounts probably circumvented our own voting system to guarantee the election of bush. If these are patriots were doomed.
Someone, I forget who is was, asked earlier if there were any women posting on this thread. Well I am of the female persuasion and after reading the thread and thinking about it several things come to mind along with some questions for all the mouth breathing repubs around here. Having spent the better part of 10 years in the USMC and the USNR (Desert Storm) I think I qualify as a patriot. When I was active duty we stood at attention and saluted as we faced the flag (when you are holding a salute it's a long song trust me) and we did as well if we got caught out at morning or evening colors.
As far as being at pubic events usually when I hear the Nat'l anthem I stand at attention period. To me that shows more respect than putting your hand over you heart. Which leads me to this question. If I'm at home watching a NASCAR race (yes I know that's an oxymoron but I'm still a Dem and will always be one) do I make me and my son stand at attention and put our hands over our hearts or are we excused since we aren't actually there at the track? I mean it is live. Mind you if I were at the track I would take my Earnhardt hat off and still stand at attention. I can't make my son stand as he is in a wheelchair so that's the answer to those of you who want to nitpick about my son not standing.
In my opinion patriotism is in the individuals heart not in any outer accoutrements like flag pins or where you put your hand when the Nat'l anthem is played. My father, also a marine vet from WWII, taught me that patriotism is in your heart not what you do when a song is played. My patriotism is in my heart
That being said to this day over 20 yrs after the first time I took my oath to join the marines "I do solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic" I still believe in that oath and do not take it lightly. If that meant taking to the streets to rid us of the current admin come January 2009 then I would do so as I would consider them "domestic enemies".
So to you repubs who want to dictate to me whether or not I'm patriotic you can kiss my arse.
Showme dem,
You stated that patriotism is in the heart, but I would also add that belief is usually readily seen in behavior. Your love for your child is in your heart I'm certain though, it also guides your conduct that can be at times, observed by others.
I think feeling about this country as something exceptional in the world is also something that affects our behavior, sometimes witnessed by others. My concern about those on the left is that it is important for them to deconstruct so much about this country, going back to the rich white guys that founded this great experiment to anything positive found in the present.
I submit a statement by Senator Obama is last week's debate with Mrs. Clinton...
"Because the problem is, if we think that meeting with the president is a privilege that has to be earned, I think that reinforces the sense that we stand above the rest of the world at this point in time."
As a president of this country, I want my leader to see what we have to offer as something exceptional to the world. I want dictators to fear, respect and 'earn' the privledge of doing business with us. Without projecting the granduer of individual liberty, economic freedom, something de Tocqueville offered in his observations about the uniqueness of America, then we are just a member of the pack, nothing special except we may have a bigger stick to beat them with.
We want for our children to strive to be the best representative of our family as possible. Even with all of our foibles, we feel in our hearts and ask them to show in their behavior that it has consequence for its reflection on the themselves and family. I think by the nature of their conduct, they reflect their sense of devotion, respect and love of us and family. I think it is fair to ask our potential leaders, what makes them feel special about our country and how/why they demonstrate it in the fashion that they choose.
youvegotastrangemagic,
Thank you for validating the democrat party's assertion of the benefits of Marx's (not Groucho) Manifesto! The link below will make it easier for you to explain yourself in future posts.
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/communist/summary.html
As for my reaction to my comments indicating that I believe that Senator Obama must refuse to note anything exceptional about this country, in its founding ideals, its history or what it offers now to the whole world, I am still waiting for someone on the left say something positive about the US without denegrating it in some fashion, as well. I believe, for what stands for liberalism today, the deconstruction of this country is necessary for your political amitions to gain traction. Google Saul Alinsky, look at the tactics of his philosophy and how both Obama and Mrs. Clinton idealize the man.
You also use patriotism to attempt to shut off debate. People like yourself, well people in power that actually influence people, define what is and isn’t ok to argue about, they tell people like yourself what bounds of the debate are (usually not allowing any talk that would undermine their interests) and people like your mindlessly repeat. We can’t talk about the fact that the US government does have a horrific foreign policy and discuss it in detail (god forbid we, as Americans, wouldn’t want out government acting immorally in our name with our tax dollars) and it’s economic policy is immoral and usually forced on countries that don’t want it not because we shouldn’t rationally but because people like yourself consider it “un-patriotic”. That way you don’t have to articulate why the immoral is actually moral. Why the hell am I arguing with you anyway, you’ll only respond with more generalizations.
"Economic freedom", "individual liberty", just an example of how you don't articulate what that is and don't acknowledge how simplistic and one sided your definitions are. For who and under what conditions?