On Fox News Sunday, Kristol claimed Hagee and Parsley are "just individuals who've endorsed" McCain
SUMMARY: On Fox News Sunday, when Bill Kristol was asked whether "it's fair" to compare "[Sen. John] McCain's, quote, 'ministers,' " John Hagee and Rod Parsley, "to [Sen. Barack] Obama's pastor," Kristol replied: "No, because these are just individuals who've endorsed Senator McCain." However, McCain stated in a joint appearance with Hagee that he was "very proud to have Pastor Hagee's support" and reportedly called Parsley a "spiritual guide."
On the March 23 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace highlighted controversial statements evangelist John Hagee and pastor Rod Parsley, who have both endorsed Sen. John McCain for president, have made, and asked New York Times columnist and Weekly Standard editor William Kristol: "Do you think it's fair, Bill, to compare McCain's, quote, 'ministers' to [Sen. Barack] Obama's pastor [Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright]?" Kristol replied: "No, because these are just individuals who've endorsed Senator McCain." He later added: "This would be like attacking Obama because random individuals in the Democratic Party have endorsed him." In fact, contrary to Kristol's assertion that Hagee and Parsley are "just individuals who've endorsed Senator McCain," McCain stated in a joint appearance with Hagee: "All I can tell you is I'm very proud to have Pastor Hagee's support." And in an interview with New York Times reporter Deborah Solomon, Hagee stated: "McCain's campaign sought my endorsement." Additionally, McCain reportedly called Parsley a "spiritual guide" during a Cincinnati campaign rally.
From the March 23 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday:
WALLACE: Let me switch to something else, Bill. With all the talk about Obama and Reverend Wright, I got a bunch of email this past week from viewers who said: "Why don't you ever talk about McCain and the evangelical -- some of the evangelical ministers who have endorsed him?" And let's put up a couple of these: Reverend John Hagee, who has called the Catholic Church a "false cult," and Reverend Rod Parsley, who has attacked Islam and said that Allah was a "demon spirit." Do you think it's fair, Bill, to compare McCain's, quote, "ministers" to Obama's pastor?
KRISTOL: No, because these are just individuals who've endorsed Senator McCain. I think, actually, some of the attacks, especially on Reverend Hagee, are unfair. But leaving that aside, no. This would be like attacking Obama because random individuals in the Democratic Party have endorsed him. Obama and Wright have a close relationship. Obama chose, not just to join Reverend Wright's church, but to stay there over 20 years. And that's what hurts him.
As Media Matters for America has noted, Hagee has made controversial statements about, among other topics, homosexuality, Islam, the Catholic Church, and women. In an interview published in the March 23 issue of New York Times magazine, Hagee stated that the McCain campaign sought his endorsement:
As a prominent evangelical pastor based in San Antonio, you were recently catapulted into national controversy when you endorsed Senator John McCain for president. Is it true that McCain actively sought your endorsement? It's true that McCain's campaign sought my endorsement.
On February 27, Hagee, founder and senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, endorsed McCain at a press conference in which the two appeared together. Following Hagee's endorsement, McCain said, "All I can tell you is I'm very proud to have Pastor Hagee's support." On February 29, McCain released a statement in which he asserted that "in no way did I intend for his endorsement to suggest that I in turn agree with all of Pastor Hagee's views, which I obviously do not." On March 8, the Associated Press quoted McCain's assertions that "[w]e've had a dignified campaign, and I repudiate any comments that are made, including Pastor Hagee's, if they are anti-Catholic or offensive to Catholics" and that "I categorically reject and repudiate any statement that was made that was anti-Catholic, both in intent and nature. I categorically reject it, and I repudiate it." As Think Progress noted, on the March 11 broadcast of Bill Bennett's Morning in America, McCain said, "I repudiate any, any comments that are anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, racist, any other. And I condemn them and I condemn those words that Pastor Hagee apparently, that Pastor Hagee wrote" and added, "I will say that he [Hagee] said that his words were taken out of context, he defends his position." But McCain has yet to address any of Hagee's specific remarks other than those concerning Catholicism.
As Media Matters also documented, in a March 12 article, Mother Jones Washington editor David Corn reported that Parsley had endorsed McCain on February 26, prior to a March 4 Republican primary in Ohio, at a campaign rally at which they both appeared. Corn reported that "Parsley praised the Republican presidential front-runner as a 'strong, true, consistent conservative,' " and that "McCain, with Parsley by his side at the Cincinnati rally, called the evangelical minister a 'spiritual guide.' "
As Corn noted, in a chapter titled, "Islam: The Deception of Allah," in his book, Silent No More (Charisma House, April 2005), Parsley wrote:
I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore. (Pages 90 - 91)
In the same chapter, Parsley further wrote that Muhammad "received revelations from demons and not from the true God." (Page 96)
Of course it's not fair. It's never fair to hold a Republicant to the same standard as a Dem.
More hypocsrisy from the right. Luckily it doesn't play anywhere except on Planet Wingnut ....
MM: McCain "reportedly called Parsley a 'spiritual guide'."
And ... the point is ... ?
Yes. Rev. Parsley is a spiritual guide - to some people. McCain did not call him HIS spiritual guide.
This is a lame and DISHONEST attempt to connect McCain and Parsley ala Wright and Obama.
Not cool, MM. Not cool at all.
Ya'll righties have sufficiently demonstrated there is no pretext you'll forego in the service of tearing down liberalism.
It's Phony.
I'm no McCain supporter, but the fact is that McCain's relationship with Hagee and Parsley doesn't approach Obama's relationship with Wright, and it's the height of dishonesty to suggest that it does.
McCain didn't attend Hagee or Parsley's church for twenty years, didn't ask those guys to officiate at his wedding, doesn't send his kids to their church, doesn't consider them "relatives" and didn't take the name of a sermon one of them gave as the title of his book.
If McCain is associating with hate merchants, that ought to be pointed out. McCain ought to be judged by the company he keeps, just like Obama. But please, drawing these kind of comparisons do Obama no favors- they just keep Rev. Wright in the news, and people aren't stupid enough to be convinced that passing acquaintances with the likes of Hagee and Parsley are the equivalent of a lifelong relationship with Wright.
But have you seen McCain say Parsley was "his" spiritual guide? I can say that Falwell is a pastor or spiritual guide (and he is for thousands) but that would be different then saying he is mine. There is a difference in that distinction. Please give a link where McCain made such a claim. Thanks.
If you had bothered to follow the links that MMFA conveniently supplied in the story at the begionning of this thread (indicated by blue text), you would have been able to read the following for yourself, in which John McCain makes that very claim:
Meanwhile, McCain campaigned yesterday in Cincinnati, where he appeared with the Rev. Rod Parsley of World Harvest Church of Columbus. McCain called Parsley a "spiritual guide," while Parsley later labeled McCain a "strong, true, consistent conservative." Source - http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/02/27/GOP27.ART_ART_02-27-08_A1_IS9FKJU.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101
Your quote says McCain called Parsley "A" spiritual guide. Isn't that the contention that you are trying to argue against? I thought you were going to provide a link to McCain saying Parsley was "his" spiritual guide.
Have you noticed any difference in the two situations yet? 1: Obama says Wright is HIS pastor/friend. 2: McCain says Haggee is A pastor. If we are to treat democrats equally with republicans (like someone asked earlier) then perhaps you should start DOING that!
McCain has not denounced or rejected anything Hagee OR Parsley has said. So if Repugs and Dems are to be treated equally, we should be looking for that. Otherwise, McCain's silence can be taken as a defacto endorsement of the hateful things said by these two so-called "men of God".
But in the quotes according to MMFA he did that for all remarks by Hagee. I don't believe he did on Parsely but I don't know what he has said other than Islam is evil. It is not right but saying Islam is evil is not a big deal for most Republican voters.
I know the Republicans will attack any church they see as being against the US or the Soldiers. I am sure YouTube has links to Fox News bashing the church that has "God Hates Fags" and "God Hates America". Back when it was just the former, not a peep. As soon as they started having protests and rallys at soldier's funerals, they were jumping up and down. That is a big reason you see the Wright comments getting so much play. They can point to him and assert that he hates America. We know that is not the case but does the average viewer/voter?
But now it looks like John McCain went out of his way to get Hagee's endorsement, just like he sucked up to the late Jerry Falwell (now burning to a crisp in hell for using Jesus's message of love to spread hate). McCain cannot distance himself now from someone he intentionally involved himself with just a few weeks ago.
Just found this via a Google search:
Hagee, in 'NYT' This Sunday, Says McCain Sought His Endorsement
By Greg Mitchell
Published: March 20, 2008 5:35 PM ET
NEW YORK In an interview that will appear in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine, controversial televangelist Rev. John Hagee declares, "It's true that [John] McCain's campaign sought my endorsement."
McCain has attempted to distance himself from some of Hagee's views, much as Barack Obama is doing in relation to Rev. Jeremiah Wright. But unlike McCain, Obama has not stood on stage with Wright and accepted his accolades this year.
<more>
http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003728364
Nice Spin! But unlike McCain, Obama has not stood on stage with Wright and accepted his accolades this year.
Good to see someone trying to equate going to get someone's support with being a member of their organization for 20 years. We will see if it has legs.
I don't think that will play well in the middle but we will see.
Has Obama sttod on a stage next to Rev. Wright and stated that he agrees with everything he says? No.
Has McCain eagerly accepted the endorsements of known hate-merchants Hagee and Parsley? Yes.
Has Obama publicly distanced himself from Rev Wright's remarks? Yes, he has.
Has McCain actively sought the endorsement of known hate-merchants? Yes, he has.
And that's the difference.
Like I said, we will see if the fact that he has not stood on stage and instead sat below for 2 decades has legs.
To be fair, above MM states that McCain said, "I repudiate any, any comments that are anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, racist, any other. And I condemn them and I condemn those words that Pastor Hagee apparently, that Pastor Hagee wrote"
I agree that he went out of his way to get his support according to Hagee.
We will see if that has legs. Perhaps a wager is in order?
Has McCain stood on a stage and said he endorsed everything Hagee and Parsley said? No. Has McCain sat under the preaching and tutelage of Hagee & Parsley for 20 years? No. Has McCain defended the comments of Hagee and Parsley? No.
If you want to compare 'apples-to-apples,' compare Wright to McCain's pastor (he has one, you know).
If you want to compare 'apples-to-apples,' compare Wright to McCain's pastor (he has one, you know).
But which one? Didn't he just switch denominations (from Episcopal to Baptist) to pander more to the evangelicals????
"If you want to compare 'apples-to-apples,' compare Wright to McCain's pastor (he has one, you know)."
Noel, haven't you been paying attention? This is a liberal site, there IS NO interest in equality. If these people were interested in knowing who has taught McCain for the last 20 years they would look. Actually, they probably already have and notice that he isn't a racist, so they have to keep that out of the news. You must realize your dealing with a bunch of hypocrits who would prefer racism re-emerges as the leading way of life that it enjoyed when it was led by Robert Byrd. Obama being a church member for 20 years in a racist church is nothing compared to having a KKK leader become a top democrat. But, should a republican receive as much as a handshake from a white hater, then all hell breaks loose.
To some, I guess it's such a sterling endorsement of his principles that the sellout wannabe, McSame as Bush, is willing to reach out to hate merchants and bellow an emphatic, "Me, too!"
Please. It's pathetic. Republicans have proven in abundance that it doesn't matter what stripe of conservatism they run under, the authoritarian right-wing PC police demand the same old tired, unenthusiastic chorus of overplayed pleas. From the ashes of the housing market we hear the same Ho Hum dergulated market drivel. As infrastructure crumbles and investmets in people dwindle it's the maundering, unitelligible refrain of tax mumbo jumbo or some such. Never forget that endless we gotta keep the gays from marrying drone, we'll all be shtoopin' cattle if they're allowed to marry.
And the occupation of Iraq, the missing 8 billion the countless dead civillians, state sanctioned torture the forgotten murderer somewhere in Afghanistan, maybe, who knows?
So?
We're taking our Cheneyburton money to Dubai. Real patriots there, boy!
Conservatism is yesterday's bad news. Get away go, shoo. The country is screwed now, thanks your job is done. You've proven government can't function by and for the people when rats are in charge. Buh-bye.
"just like he sucked up to the late Jerry Falwell (now burning to a crisp in hell for using Jesus's message of love to spread hate)."
If you think Falwell is burning to a crisp because of his message, what hope does Wright have? Maybe Wright knows this and is purposely spreading hate in order to further the ideals of the same evil person cooking Falwell. I like to think there is hope for everyone, but if you think Falwell is in hell for the message he brought, then Wright isn't even going to see the Pearly Gates. He will be instantly transfered to his new home, right next to Falwell, the moment he dies.
While it's sad to think a good man may end up in hell, it IS a fitting punishment for the message being taught. You do a good job of showing liberal distaste for personal accountability: white guy teaching hate= go to hell, black guy teaching hate= a hero to all mankind
Here's another link that shows EXACTLY what John McCain said about Ron Parsley. I underlined it for emphasis:
McCain camp disputes Wright-Parsley comparison
by Mosheh Oinounou
Washington, D.C. — John McCain’s campaign is pushing back on recent allegations that controversial Ohio pastor, Rev. Rod Parsley, serves as a “spiritual guide” for the GOP presidential nominee.
As Barack Obama continues to take heat for anti-American and racially divisive comments made by his longtime pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, some voices on the left are arguing that McCain should be receiving similar scrutiny for provocative remarks made by Parsley.
The Ohio-based religious leader has made a number controversial statements about Muslims, previously calling Islam an “anti-Christ religion” based on “deception.” In a recent book, he also wrote that the prophet Mohammad “received revelations from demons and not from the true God,” adding that “Allah was a demon spirit.”
According to the campaign, McCain met Parsley for the first time three weeks ago, when the pastor served as an introductory speaker at a February 26 rally in Cincinnati.
McCain praised most of the leaders in attendance, saying of Parsley: “I am very honored today to have one of the truly great leaders in America, a moral compass, a spiritual guide…thank you for your leadership and your guidance. I am very grateful you are here.”
<MORE>
http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/03/15/mccain-camp-disputes-wright-parsley-comparison/
Sounds like McCain was accepting Parsley as a spiritual guide to me......
Your post has my endorsement! You probably don't want it, I don't blame you. I'm abrasive and dramatic and sometimes just plain cruel. But you shut up a host dingbats with the facts and that is worth celebrating!
Cheers!
" But you shut up a host dingbats with the facts and that is worth celebrating! "
It must be sad thinking that McCain met this guy for the first time 3-weeks ago (in that article) and you think McCain has any idea what this guy teaches. I wish Obama only knew Wright for just 3-weeks before he denounced the message brought, but that relationship covers nearly 23years. Any comment on that difference? No? Go figure
BTW, Islam does have no regard for Christ being God. Of course a Christian would say that. At least he isn't saying muslims created HIV to destroy the black people of the world. Ha Ha ha ha
The silence is deafening.... ah ha ha ha
Uhhh what happened to McCain? He can't scramble fast enough to come out with a coherent response. Meanwhile, Obama answered swiftly and honestly.
However, you must feel so comforted that your Republican will postrate himself before the authoritarian wing of your Party for the cynical purpose of manipulating your Party's base.
"It's a stark contrast isn't it? Obama disavowed Wright's words but embraced the man in an act of empathy and personal responsibility. "
But, never explained why he is stupid enough to continue attending a known racist church. Yes, a VERY stark contrast. Did you listen to the Easter message from that church? No? Well, everyone else in America got another glimpse into the message that church brings. Yes, a stark contrast!!
BTW, can you tell me if Obama is still a member of that church?
Obama showed me, millions of others like me that he supports a man's right to speak freely. Obama demonstrated that he ain't some namby pamby run away and bury his head in the sand whenever he hears thoughts with which he disagrees. He showed character.
It doesn't really matter if Obama still attends that church or not, does it? He made very clear his stand on the matter. Wright is his friend. Take it or leave it.
Nice.
The Mccain camp called him "a spiritual advisor"
Oh, you misunderstand. He's not "a spiritual advisor" to Mccain, just "a spritual advisor" in general to people other than Mccain.
Well played, Philib.
Personally, I find a "Rev. Parsley" and a "World Harvest" Church somewhat disturbing in a Stephen Kingish kind of way.
I find all of those megachurches somewhat disturbing after working in Colorado Springs for a number of years - home of James Dobson's FoKKKus On The Family, Ted Haggard's New Life Church, and many other fundamentalist Christian organizations.
You defend honest to God religious frauds like Dobson and Haggard and somehow you still believe anyone cares about what you have to say?
Since you're such a fan of tortured logic. Here's some for ya.
Hillary was born a Republican, mom and pop were rightwingers. Talk about your lifelong relationships.
Hillary was a Goldwater girl. Should she be allowed to put that association behind her or should she be forever considered a conservative because she followed such a tragically flawed political ideology at one time?
"I'm no McCain supporter, but the fact is that McCain's relationship with Hagee and Parsley doesn't approach Obama's relationship with Wright, and it's the height of dishonesty to suggest that it does. McCain didn't attend Hagee or Parsley's church for twenty years, didn't ask those guys to officiate at his wedding, doesn't send his kids to their church, doesn't consider them 'relatives' and didn't take the name of a sermon one of them gave as the title of his book."
This early post by jjamele2880 in this discussion deserves to be repeated. Be honest, Obama fanboys. There is no comparing the Hagee/McCain relationship, or the Parsley/McCain relationship, with the close personal 20-year friendship and mentorship between Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama. To suggest that the situations are somehow equivalent is so obviously desperate that it boggles the mind.
McCain did not regularly attend either of these churches for 20 years, the way Obama attended Wright's church. McCain did not donate large sums of money to either of these churches. Neither Parsley nor Hagee presided over McCain's wedding, or baptized his children. McCain has not published a book whose title was taken from a sermon by Hagee or Parsley.
Claiming that these situations are the same is a sign of weakness. The Obama cult is like a drowning man, trying to grasp anything within reach that looks like a straw.
What it all boils do to is this:
The Republicans have NOTHING on Barack Obama, so they choose to attack his former pastor.
Period.
Really all you are saying is McCain is a liar who only chose to associate with these two because he needed them for campaigning purposes.
Like so many others in teh Republican Party, McCain will do or say whatever it takes (or kiss whatever butts need to be kissed) in order to get elected.
Jim,
Don't waste your time. 2 + 2 = 5 on this site.
Yes, in every post you make here.
But your saying 2 + 2 = 5 does not in any way make it true.
What's telling is that you believe it.
Another world of difference between listening to your pastor on matters of religion and matters of politics.
You really think a theocrat tag is going to stick to Obama?
I wonder of how many folks who claim Obama's church and pastor are racist have ever spent Sunday morning in a black church. I'll take a wild guess and say zero. I'll take another guess and say not a single one knows anything about the history of the black church. The civil rights movement for social justice and equality was born in the black church. Where could you go, to release your anger and frustration at how you were treated, seek solace and pray for better days to come? Church Who else would understand how felt and had similar troubles of their own. Black members of the Black church. A place where you didn't have to worry that what you felt and said would be misunderstood......Sunday service in a black church. So when I hear all the cries of racism and bigotry I wonder how do you know? It seems that a rational thinking people would say, Rev. Wright was born in 1941, I can only imagine what life was like for a black child born in 1941. Rev. Wright joined the marines even though blacks were not allowed to serve in the marines until 1941, the year Rev. Wright was born. In 1955 a 14year old black child, Emmett Till was dragged from his uncle's home in the middle of the night, beaten, shot and dropped in the river. His crime was he whistled at a white woman. Emmett Till and Rev. Wright were the same age. You have no freaking clue what Rev. Wright's life was like, no godd*mn idea the things he saw, the words he heard on a daily basis. You have no idea what he endured but you somehow feel justified in calling him a racist, a bigot. I'm 7 years younger than Rev. Wright. I don't agree with Rev. Wright, but I understand. You have no idea how hard it is to put the past behind you, how much work it takes to trust and believe. I don't feel exactly like Rev. Wright, but I understand. What's that saying "walk a mile in someone else's shoes", you may just understand.
Sorry, Pearlene -- I'm not buying it.
As only one example, Wright has explicitly stated that "inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." I don't know of a single rational person who believes that.
I'm well aware of America's history of slavery, oppression of minorities, etc. The bogus claims of "leaders" like Wright detract from our attempts to address the real concerns America still has when it comes to racial equality.
Furthermore, you don't know what that man has done in lifting up poor black communities. For you to add quotes around "leader" as if he's just a demagogue is patently dishonest. Instead you rely on a few video snippets of him delivering a sermon condemning racism and Imperialism and suddenly he's a black Hitler commanding his army of black Christian soldiers to oppress whites. Not in one of those clips I've viewed I heard him say that whites are unequal, whites are inferior, blacks should be segregated from whites, etc. To paint a traditional black minster like Wright as a racist proves Peal's point: that such people are unaccustomed to black churches and their way of worshipping.
How Obama thought he would overcome such deep, racial divide in this country and become president is beyond me.
Typical dodge. Wright helped the poor of his community- so he's not a racist and can't be called one? Wright grew up surrounded by racism- so he's not a racist and can't be called one? Wright gave hope to thousands through his community activism- so he's not a racist and can't be called one?
Give me a break. I don't care if Wright cured cancer, went to the moon and brought peace to the middle east. It's totally immaterial. Is he a racist? If he is, why can't he be pointed out as one?
Six pages of "Look at All The Good Things Wright Has Done" doesn't answer the question "is Wright a racist?" with a "No." It's just another dodge.
You should get your own show on Air America or MSNBC.
You never liked Obama in the first place. I don't care for Obama either, but it has a lot to do with policy than personality or "movement" he created. This Wright affair was the perfect incident where you could rationalize and justified your hatred of him. Fine, hate Obama all you want, but to dismiss someone who actually can understand where his pastor is coming from -- especially since I am black and I do understand the black experience here in America -- reeks of condescension. If I wanted to read that, I can hop over to Taylor Marsh's blog where you can get unadulterated, silly rants about Obama.
And can you please point to me where Wright was racist in his sermons? While he may have been theatrical in his delivery, I didn’t find anything inaccurate in his analysis regarding the power structure in this country.
I think this comment from Daily Kos puts Wright's statements in a slighty different perspective.
And I have people in my family (a couple of aunts) who wouldn't put it pass the government to do something like "plant AIDS in the black community". This is what happens when you have a government that has traditionally been against you.
Typical dodge. Wright helped the poor of his community- so he's not a racist and can't be called one? Wright grew up surrounded by racism- so he's not a racist and can't be called one? Wright gave hope to thousands through his community activism- so he's not a racist and can't be called one?
Give me a break. I don't care if Wright cured cancer, went to the moon and brought peace to the middle east. It's totally immaterial. Is he a racist? If he is, why can't he be pointed out as one?
Six pages of "Look at All The Good Things Wright Has Done" doesn't answer the question "is Wright a racist?" with a "No." It's just another dodge.
You should get your own show on Air America or MSNBC.
Your basic premise is flawed. By definition, a black person in this country cannot be called a racist because they do not have the POWER to convert their words to actions. Us white folks, however, can be (and many times are) racists.
It's all a matter of who has the power - and in a white-dominated society, it ain't the African-Americans who have the power.
Black people in the US cannot be racist? No wonder you are fighting the claim so much. At least we now know the frame of reference you are using.
Thanks.
The frame of reference I'm using is that of a white male who opened his eyes to see the injustice around me.
And like I said, by definition blacks cannot be racists. From www.dictionary.com:
racist - a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.
racism - a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
So since it has been whites since Colonial Times who have believed themselves superior to other races and have strived to rule over all other races, only whites can be racists and practice racism.
If you are black and think blacks are superior you are racist.
PLEASE tell me where you EVER heard Black folks thinking they were superior? You d*mn right we have been PROUD of the fact that through all the s*it we've had dumped on us and throughout all the mistreatment we have survived, but SUPERIOR? GTFOH
Simply being elitist is a sign you think you are superior. It's a black thing you wouldn't understand or it's our word you can't use it. Call it what you will but that is a sign that you think you have some special right that is not held by the population at large. If that group that has that right is a race, well quite simply you are racist.
GTFOH? Sorry I have no idea what that means.
It's a black thing you wouldn't understand or it's our word you can't use it. Call it what you will but that is a sign that you think you have some special right that is not held by the population at large. If that group that has that right is a race, well quite simply you are racist.
Ben, I'm being honest in asking this question. Have you ever lived a day in your life as an African American? I don't say this to mean that each and every day living in American as an African American is a trial, it's not but there are days when you swear you were back in the 1950's. Days where some ignorant person reminds you how far we still have to go. Experiences like when a store clerk greets the white customer like she's spending a million dollars and she's dressed in rags while your in nice business clothes having to beg to get someone to wait on you. Or the really good one where you're in an upscale store and the clerk follows you around the store asking every three seconds "can I help you" and no matter how many times you tell her "No, I'm just looking" she follows you around until you leave the store in disgust. Can I window shop in peace or are they afraid I will steal something. Maybe saying "you have to be black to understand" is a cop-out but sometimes there's nothing left to say but that. How can I explain how I feel so that you would have some idea what my life is like. We don't think were special, it's just that most of us have experienced the same things and the one thing we have in common is color of our skin.
Explaining the "N" word. Simply put, white folks give a "ger" ending and black folks give a "ga" ending. Black folks changed the way the word was said to take away the sting. That sting came from years and years of white folks using that word to belittle, berate and degrade black folks. Is it an OK word for black folks to still use? IMO, No, like everything else in life it's time to change. Times have changed. It's only MO.
I believe in judging each and every individual on their own merits, not based on their race. The civil rights movement included white folks, not just black. Some of the best jobs and opportunities came to me because of white friends. I don't hate white folks but I do hate intolerance, ignorance, bigotry, racism. I hate people who are quick to judge and slow to admit their mistakes. We have more in common than different if only we would place ourselves in someone else's shoe's and think about how would you would feel if......before judging.
Now I gotta run, Dancing with the Stars is on.
What I'm saying is that his views on current events are wrong and out of the mainstream. Further, the ludicrous rantings of guys like him over FALSE issues make it more harder for America to acknowledge and address the REAL concerns.
Current events? While I will be the first to say that thing have changed they still have a long way to go.
False ranting? Please tell me what those false ranting are and how different are they from the REAL concerns.
I absolutely agree that we have a long way to go in America if we're going to have real racial equality. My point is that false claims of racism make it all the more difficult for real racist acts to be addressed, especially institutional racism.
A negative impression is created every time an "activist" like Al Sharpton lies like he did about Tawana Brawley, every time a defense lawyer like Johnnie Cochran falsely alleges racism in order to free an obviously guilty client, every time a Jeremiah Wright falsely claims AIDS is a secret white conspiracy against black people. Then when we attempt to address a REAL problem like this one, it's harder than it should be to convince people that the problem exists in the first place.
My point is that false claims of racism make it all the more difficult for real racist acts to be addressed, especially institutional racism. A negative impression is created every time an "activist" like Al Sharpton lies like he did about Tawana Brawley, every time a defense lawyer like Johnnie Cochran falsely alleges racism in order to free an obviously guilty client, every time a Jeremiah Wright falsely claims AIDS is a secret white conspiracy against black people.
I can't say if the Sharpton claim is valid. I will admit that I paid little attention to the Brawley case, I was not fond of Sharpton at that time.
You however are totally off base with the Johnnie Cochran claim. Johnnie was a defense lawyer using every tool in his arsenal to get his client free. That is what each and every defense lawyer does. If they need race they use race, if they need sex, they use sex. It's their job. The problem for the LA District Attorney's office was the LAPD. The LAPD has a history of racial misconduct and unfortunately it burned them in the OJ case. Just think if the LAPD had treated African Americans fairly the questions of racial misconduct would not be an issue. Mark Furhman and tapes of him saying the "N" word didn't help either.
While I don’t believe that the government introduced AIDS in the black community you must understand that when you have grown up hearing stories and reading about the Tuskegee Experiment and others you tend to not trust your government.
It’s funny you mentioned the name issue. I have been telling black folks for years, stop naming your children names no one can spell or pronounce. How can you get a job if they pronounce your name. This is not new. If it wasn’t the name it was the sound of your voice. My daughter has surprised many of her clients. The talk to her on the phone but are surprised to see a black young woman.
There are many issues to confront regarding racism but if you don’t understand where it’s coming from you can’t know how to address it. Racism is a complex issue involving the old issues Rev. Wright faced as well as the new issues of bi racial child such a Obama. There is no reason that we can’t work on more than one thing at a time since it's all important.
You're hysterical. Barack Obama was born in Kansas to a white woman. He spent much of his childhood in magnet schools in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League colleges. Typical "black experience," I'm sure. What would I know? I'm just a typical white person who went to public schools and worked his way through college and graduate school. I guess that's the typical "white experience." Dammit, the White Power Structure must have missed me when they went around handing out all those benefits I, as an American White Person, was supposed to get.
I have a friend who joined the army right out of High School, because it was the only way he could go to college. He's white, too- the White Power Structure isn't very efficient, it misses a LOT of us!
Meanwhile, Barack Obama knows all about being a black person in the United States because...um, well, he lives in a black neighbor...um, no wait, he went to predominantly black schoo....no, wait....
Well, he DID join this church run by an angry racist....oops, sorry, I keep forgetting I'm not allowed to call the Rev. Wright a racist, because I don't get the context of his rantings- I mean sermons....
Meanwhile, Barack Obama knows all about being a black person in the United States because...um, well, he lives in a black neighbor...um, no wait, he went to predominantly black schoo....no, wait....
LOL
No matter where Obama lived and no matter what school he attended, white America did not see his white mother they saw a brown skin nappy headed black child. So you see it didn't matter if he lived next to George Bush, he was black and that's how America saw him.
JJAMELE2880, this will be my last post to you on this subject because if I continue this debate I'm going to lose most of the respect I have for you as a poster at Media Matters.
My post had NOTHING to do with Obama's background or his biracialness. But apparently you feel that even a half black/white person has it better than a black person with two black parents in the ghetto, or a working-class white person. You have no idea the identity crisis and struggle many mixed people like Obama and others go through in this country. You have no idea what it's like to grow up in a society where both sides may reject you because "culturally" you're not black enough, and because of one's looks, you're not accepted as white -- a privilege in this country. The fact you think being white and you had to struggle makes you equal to blacks worse situations,shows that you have a distorted view on reality. If you don’t believe me, look no further than to Paul Rosenberg’s blog entry on inequality in Black America. And if that's not enough, I can supply you with many books you can read by scholars documenting extensive studies on equality with black and brown folks.
Now, I have nothing but sympathy for working-class white folks. I think the tragedy in the Democratic coalition that was created by FDR is that it was fractured by Nixon, Reagan and Gingrich with their race-bating, creating deeper resentment between blacks and whites by painting programs like welfare and Affirmative Action solely with a black face. But do not think for one second that minorities in this country have it easy or their struggle is equal to whites. Not only do minorities have to face classism in many cases, but racism, so being white is an advantage in a country that is build on white supremacy. (Though I’m often critical of Obama but I admired the way that he laid out how the Republicans used race as a way to create division among people to win elections. In fact, that made me give Obama a second look in that he was bold enough to state such a fact. Bill Clinton would have never done that. He would have triangulated his way out of the argument where you had no idea where he stood on the issue.)
But remember this: You may not like many of the things Wright preached about regarding racism, but most of what he stated is FACT: racism and white privilege is at the core of America's institutions and power structures. You may not like Rev. Wright's tone and style, but it's the truth.Apparently Wright isn't the only person saying this. See the links.
http://professorkim.blogspot.com/2003/07/lawsuit-us-created-aids-to-kill-blacks.html
http://www.afrocentric.info/News/TidBits/TidBits.html#anchor994854
http://www.chausa.org/Pub/MainNav/News/HP/Archive/2003/09SeptOct/articles/HP0309f.htm
Maybe Wright went overboard in his statements about aids and HIV, but seems to me there is a definite basis that was used to come to those conclusions. I suspect that not much effort has been made by the government to disprove this information.
Yeah, but most of what you see in the news regarding Africa is the AIDS epidemic and dying children. Again, I don’t agree with Wright’s conspiracy theory, but I’m putting myself in his shoes and trying to see this from his perspective.
I don't think that was a concern, if this is true. When you break it down to basic facts, the facts are that aids affects the black community at a significantly higher rate than the white community, but the white community have more people than the black community. Ergo, this must be a black based disease.
Now I don't know if that's what really happened, but I am familiar with the Holocaust. Mankind has made that kind of decision before and thought it completely rational.
Did you read the 3rd article I posted in the above list?
and this is a rumor that has gone around for years. tommy hilfiger supposedly went on oprah and said that he did not design clothes for blacks or asians and she threw him off the show. as you can see in this link she has denied the rumor personally but it persists.
http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/hilfiger.asp
I hope you come back and read this, Mefirst. There may be a huge difference between what's possible and what's doable, I can accept that. But to say a "competent" group of scientists won't try, that's what is up for debate here. At least me, I'm not talking about competent, I've been saying all along ethically challenged. Two different things. And in fact, it doesn't really have to be true scientists we are discussing either. It's the concept, isn't it?
When the framers of the constitution started discussing population census, the argument wasn't about ending slavery, it was about whether or not it was fair to count a slave as a person for purposes of representation when slaves weren't allowed to vote.
We now know that government land agents purposely and wilfully gave out blankets infested with small pox and rotted meat to the indians on the reservations with the intended goal of decimating the indian populations. Even though everyone was capable of catching the disease, they rationally decided this was a good idea.
And as pearl pointed out, we had a research team take a group of airmen from tuskagee, infest them with syphyllis (which again, anyone can get) and let them die so they could see what the different affects of the disease was. They rationally came to the conclusion that black soldiers were expendable for research purposes.
So to answer your question the best way I know how, is the government today or some individual group for that matter using aids as a means of decimating the black population? probably not.
Is it possible that given the right circumstances that someone or some government might try to do something like that? Absolutely, history shows we've done it over and over.
Would a group of otherwise sane scientists, if they thought they knew enough about the genetic differences between different races try to take advantage of those differences and develop drugs or viruses that exploit that genetic weakness? Why not? We've got a team of scientists who sold their souls to the energy industry traversing the world claiming they can debunk global warming, what makes you think a scientist wouldn't sell out his ethics to develop a wonder weapon?
Methinks you're fighting for some other reason. I see buried in your arguments statements about perception, and I agree. Perceptions, right or wrong, drive attitudes. No doubt. What I've been trying to say is that I believe these facts from the past are significant reasons behind the perceptions we are discussing. Do you think past circumstances, justly or unjustly, fuel the fires of today or not?
Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation.
For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,”1 their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”
By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis.
How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science?
there were soldiers, white from what i have seen, who were given lsd without their knowledge in the 50s.
NOT TRUE!
In 1932, the Public Health Service, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis in hopes of justifying treatment programs for blacks. It was called the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male."
The study initially involved 600 black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. The study was conducted without the benefit of patients' informed consent. Researchers told the men they were being treated for "bad blood," a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In truth, they did not receive the proper treatment needed to cure their illness. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance. Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.
http://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm
Our government wasn't really concecrned with the plight of poor folks and IV drug users.
Our government wasn't really concecrned with the plight of poor folks and IV drug users.
But that is because our government is not concerned about Black or White. The only color that matters is Green. How much do you have?
In the hearts of conservatives, addicts and poor folks are on their own. In the mind of the con those misfortunate souls have no connection to them because they choose their bedraggled lot in life. Never mind the outrage that a person can work two part time jobs in our country and still struggle to feed their family. Nevermind higher education is so debt inducing that pursuing careers in public service cannot cover the cost of education. Nevermind that the uninsured and even many of the insured are one catastrophic turn of fate away from destitution.
Nevermind the general welfare we ain't like them.
that still does not explain what i asked. how is it possible that anyone could think aids would not cross over into the white community?
Minimal collateral damage?
Or maybe they thought Whites engaging in interracial sex should die off too. Maybe they didn't even think it through.
(We're going on as though the premise is true).
This is sure interesting for a discussion on another topic - but here goes. Actually, it IS possible to design something that would only target a certain race - because there ARE things that are different about the races and so you "design" a virus that seeks out and attaches to that difference.
In this case - sickle cell anemia. The gene that causes this malady is almost 100% specific to blacks, and if you design a virus that looks for that particular anomaly you have a "black" disease. So while I don't think the HIV/AIDS pandemic actually started that way - it is entirely possible to do with today's technology.
Asians are generally lacking the ability to digest lactose so they could be targetted with that one, Native Americans have a problem with sucrose/insulin, I could go on. There ARE handy-dandy things in all our genetic makeups that could be used to hang something on of this sort so the speculation or "conspiracy" theories are not that far off base.
I understand, but do you think it will never be possible for mankind to genetically mutate virus' to target specific traits? If they eventually can do so, it stands to reason that some ethically challenged scientists will use that skill to exploit a new found weakness. I understand this looks like I'm creating some doomsday scenario, but in my defense let me point out that mankind has investigated weaponry that will kill humans but leave buildings intact. If it ever is possible, there is a high probability that someone will try to exploit it.
i certainly don't think it has happened thus far, because we could be able to possibly put that to use in targeting certain diseases. but i do not think it is likely that any virus would stay that way for any period of time at all. it's not what viruses are about. they reproduce quickly and adapt to circumstances quickly.
Heh, I have friends that think the earth is only 6,000 years old and evolution is a lie Satan tells people, but I'm not holding it against them, I just think they are ignorant and wrong. On the other hand, they are loving and sincere people to their fellow human beings.
I think Obama can have friends and advisors that he may think are wrong about some things too.
I think that most of the people who call Rev. Wright a racist are unfairly doing so because Wright has said the US Govt created AIDS as a means of exterminating blacks, and has accused the US Govt of bulldozing 6000 innocent Iraqis into mass graves by attaching snowplows to tanks, etc. People are quick to judge and not look behind words such as these to understand the context. I think if they understood that Wright had been born in the year 1941, four years before blacks and whites could even serve in the military, and had come of age during the Civil Rights period, they would realize that there is absolutely nothing racist in what the Rev. Wright has said to his flock. But people are too lazy to look beyond his words at the context.
So they are likely to go on thinking that just because Wright has accused the White Power Structure in the US of promoting genocide and of injecting blacks with AIDS, among other charges, that he's somehow a "racist."
Jumping to such conclusions is something typical white people do. Very sad.
Please show me what I said that was "irrational" or "shrill." You don't even attempt to refute anything I say.
Typical. When you can't argue, just throw out a version of "calm down, you're being shrill." I suppose that works with children.
Preston, J hates Obama because he might stop Hillary from getting the nomination. Of course both he and Hillary ASSUMED was hers and after super Tuesday Obama would go away. Rev. Wright is just an excuse.
It takes a rational thinking person while maybe not agreeing with Rev. Wright, can a least accept that he has a different view of America based on his experiences.
J along with a few others Hillary lovers cannot objectively look at Rev. Wright. Of course if he were Hillary pastor then context would again be important.
It's really a shame because JJ is someone I often agree with on most issues, but when it comes to Obama, JJ becomes as irrational and fringe as Atheist and Carl. Granted, I’m critical of Obama over a lot of things but this whole smear of him being some type of Black Nationalist who goes to a black separatist church is so far off the mark it’s hysterical.
John Edwards was right: we certainly do live in Two Americas.
John Edwards was right: we certainly do live in Two Americas
Unfortunately he was right.
Pearlene -
Thank you again for providing the perspective of someone who lived in an America that was far different from the one most of us inhabited. MMFA is a richer place because of your participation.
(PS - I'm 55, white, and grew up in suburban New Jersey. But I remember traveling down South in 1961 and still seeing signs for "WHITES" and "COLOREDS" on service station rest room doors, drinking fountains, etc. It left quite an impression on me - I was only nine years old at the time, and attended an elementary school that had just been integrated and was still over 95% white. I can only imagine what it must have felt like to be told that you could only use substandard facilities, leaving the good stuff for someone else to use.)
"I wonder of how many folks who claim Obama's church and pastor are racist have ever spent Sunday morning in a black church."
I attend one. Well, it used to be one. My wife and I started going when the congregation reached a couple hundred. Pastor Paul Sheppard arrived in the bay area (from Philadelphia) many years ago to lead a black church in Palo Alto. His message became so popular that the church grew from around 35 parishioners to nearly 5000. I challenge you to listen to Pastor Paul's messages and tell me a black pastor has to teach racism!
http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=6780
I challenge you to listen to Pastor Paul's messages and tell me a black pastor has to teach racism!
That's... uhhhh... quite an interesting challenge.On some planet.
I challenge you to listen to Pastor Paul's messages and tell me a black pastor has to teach racism!
Philb, YOU think Rev. Wright teaches racism, I DON'T. By the way I've attended black churches all my life. Some Sundays the sermons are so hot your ears will burn, some Sundays not so much.
While Rev. Wright was angry he was also truthful. He told no lies about the treatment of black folks. Is it racist to remind folks how black folks were treated? IMO, No Is it racists that remind folks that the mistreatment was carried out by white folks? IMO, No, this is apart of black history and it is not racist to talk about it. I think I've stated countless times, I don't totally agree with Rev. Wright, BUT I UNDERSTAND where he's coming from and he did not lie.
Northern California living is totally different that Chicago living and the churches and their sermons reflect that. Black churches and their services in the South are different from churches in Northern California.
You say Rev. Wrights preaches racism and I think pastors like Hagee and Parsley teach hate but I notice no cry about what they preach. Wrong is wrong, period! Whether your are a spiritual advisor, whether your a member of the church for 20 years or whether you attended once. Why is that type of hate acceptable but telling true facts about Black history not?
"Northern California living is totally different that Chicago living and the churches and their sermons reflect that. Black churches and their services in the South are different from churches in Northern California."
I'm sorry, I thought you were actually interested in hearing about black pastors and churches that don't need racist/devisive sermons to be successful within the black community. Pastor Paul grew up in the row houses of Philidephia. If that isn't a good enough equivelant of upbringing that shows racism doesn't have to take root in an individual 'because of their surroundings' then your standards are delusional. I think you'll ignore the link to his church because you don't want to know what can be taught by a non-racist.
"You say Rev. Wrights preaches racism and I think pastors like Hagee and Parsley teach hate but I notice no cry about what they preach. Wrong is wrong, period! Whether your are a spiritual advisor, whether your a member of the church for 20 years or whether you attended once. Why is that type of hate acceptable but telling true facts about Black history not?"
True facts?? You mean the ones about HIV or the 3-strikes laws? You say "wrong is wrong, period!" yet argue that racism isn't wrong as long as the black person is the racist (after all-- they've earned the right to be racist). I don't need to say anything more to prove my point. You've just done a great job of saying that whites are totally at fault and anyone who denagrates them is A-OK in your world and should be fully accepted as a hero for speaking out against whitey. It's sad when people who claim to be Christian can feel non-Christian beliefs are a better way of getting their Christian rewards.
I think pastors like Haggee, Parsley and Wright are ALL on equal footing. In your delusional world of equality, YES attending a church for 20 years IS different than seeking votes during an election. Anyone who attends any of those churches for 20 years has made a tremendous judgement error, unless they like the message. I have consistantly attacked Obama's judgement, it would be sad to think he liked the message. YOU infer Obama should not be embarrassed for liking the message. Sorry, but I don't need a racist as president, neither does the country. I Never have ... I never will. You, on the other hand, can like any kind of person you want.
Sorry, but I don't need a racist as president, neither does the country. I Never have ... I never will. You, on the other hand, can like any kind of person you want.
WHEN has Obama made a racists remark? I'm sure you have proof to back up YOUR claim of Obama's being a racist. WHEN? HOW do you know we haven't already had a racist President? Because they were white? You are full of sh*t Philb. You want to tar and feather Obama becuase he as been a member of a church for 20 years yet you think it's perfectly acceptable for the man running for President, who suppose to take care of ALL Americans to ask for support from a racist, bigoted homophobic a**. Why aren't you questioning McCain's judgement in asking for the support of a racist, bigoted homophobic a**hole? Oh that's a different kind of judgement you say and I say you are full of it. You pick and choose what you think is acceptable and move the goal post to suit your needs.
"WHEN has Obama made a racists remark? I'm sure you have proof to back up YOUR claim of Obama's being a racist. WHEN?"
Last week, when he threw his white grandmother under the bus. He showed how he feels about whites at that moment. He could have done that comparison differently without resorting to calling his grandmother a racist. Then this week when he talked about the "typical white person" Do you want more? In less than a week, when the matter of racism comes up he gives us two examples of how he feels about white people.
" HOW do you know we haven't already had a racist President?"
I KNOW we've had plenty of them already. I'm not stupid, or full of ... (as you so eloquently put it). Look at the condition of this country, is there any way it could end up like this if there hadn't been many racists who have already held the office of president? Did I for one second EVER claim differently?!? Jeez, get your head out of your behind! Maybe you think we need to have continual presidents who are racist? Well, that's your right, you can have as many racists as you want as your leader. Personally, I would like to see that chain broken. You do not!
"You want to tar and feather Obama becuase he as been a member of a church for 20 years yet you think it's perfectly acceptable for the man running for President, who suppose to take care of ALL Americans to ask for support from a racist, bigoted homophobic a**."
Again. You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. When did I claim that it is OK for McCain to get support from those who support him? I have consistantly said I question Obama's judgement for continueing to attend a known racist church. I've continually said those judgement comparisons that you are using are inacurate with McCain because McCain has NOT attended Haggee's or Parsley's church for 20 years. I DID NOT say I support McCain!! You got something that says I do? Bring it! Otherwise stop hypocritically insisting something you have no clue about.
" Why aren't you questioning McCain's judgement in asking for the support of a racist, bigoted homophobic a**hole? Oh that's a different kind of judgement you say and I say you are full of it. You pick and choose what you think is acceptable and move the goal post to suit your needs."
I guess that IS a different kind of judgement. Unlike yours where you call me names because I question the acceptability of racism. You can accept racism if you want, that is your choice. I choose not to. And, I'll move those goal posts as much as needed to do everything I can to stop racism. You got a problem with that? Talk to someone who cares.
"The civil rights movement for social justice and equality was born in the black church. Where could you go, to release your anger and frustration at how you were treated, seek solace and pray for better days to come?"
So was the Black Panther movement. What's your point? Just like the KKK used the church to further it's own ideals. Maybe you don't consider the KKK or Black Panthers to be racist?? Both born and raised in church.
Just an oversight, I'm sure.
Billy Bloody K. has been wrong on 99% of what has come out of his lopsided vagina of a mouth. He couldn't be astute if you put a gun to his head. Here, he resorts to the typical neocon double standard, maintaining that Obama's pastor is un-American and racist, but Hagee and Parsley are not. When McPain was working both sides of the aisle and maintaining a reputation of being a GOP "maverick," he tossed a few crumbs to middle-of-the-road Republicans, but now that he's currying the favor of the GOP "base" (read right wingnuts and religious fascists), he's even painting his anti-Iraq pose as being in reality anti-Rumsfeld.
The "agents of intolerance" stance began to crumble when McPain hugged Faultwell at a commencement ceremony. This set the stage for going after even loonier theocrats like Hagee and Parsley, who won't find a right of privacy in the First Amendment but readily find in the Declaration of Independence a few additional words in the line, "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men [except homosexuals and abortionists] are created equal."
The last vestiges of McPain's phony maverickism have evaporated, and if he's not Bush III, why is he using the same old cons to get himself elected: fear of jihadists, fear of our differences, and fear of fear itself.
I think I understand it now- there's no comparison between the Obama/Wright connection and the McCain/Hagee Parsley connection' because;
Obama attended church regularly, and McCain just uses endorsements.
Obama sat in the pews for 20 years, and I have no idea what McCain was doing during that time.
McCain was a P.O.W.
McCain's clergymen don't say anything negative about the U.S. Government, only about gays and abortions.
McCain is a pleasant old white guy, except for when he loses his temper, which is OK, because he represents angry white people, and not angry black people.The former are patriots, the latter America-haters.
Did I get that right?
Did I get that right?
LOL
Perfecto Col ;-)
"Obama attended church regularly, and McCain just uses endorsements."
You left out the word "racist" before the words church + endorsements.
"Obama sat in the pews for 20 years, and I have no idea what McCain was doing during that time."
Actually, you don't know what either were doing for the past 20 years. You only know what someone tells you happened.
"McCain was a P.O.W." -- You got this one right.
"McCain's clergymen don't say anything negative about the U.S. Government, only about gays and abortions."
I haven't seen one quote used by McCain's preacher. You have some that show this?
"McCain is a pleasant old white guy, except for when he loses his temper, which is OK, because he represents angry white people, and not angry black people.The former are patriots, the latter America-haters."
Your opinion can be neither right nor wrong. It's simply an opinion.
"Did I get that right?"
1 out of 5 is the expected knowledge of the typical liberal. So, you're doing pretty good keeping up with the class curve.
I wonder if a lot of the posters here ever imagined that they would spend so much mental energy and time defending the indefensible, even if it meant denying their own ears, eyes and common sense to declare that
A) The Rev. Wright is NOT a bigot! and
B) If you think he IS a bigot, then YOU are a bigot!
And to what end? To support a political candidate? Is it really worth it? What other mental pretzels are you willing to twist yourself into before this is over? It's ok to disenfranchise Michigan and Florida voters? Superdelegates are bad when they support Hillary, good when they support Obama? Those Superdelegates should support the person who won in their state- no wait, I mean the person who won the most primaries overall- which one favors Obama again? It never ends with you guys.
Do you guys REALLY believe that the great mass of voters are interested in being lectured about race because one of Senator Obama's supporters is a bigot? Do you REALLY think that the great mass of voters is going to search through years of Wright's sermons to find "context" in what he is saying? Do you think these voters are REALLY going to conclude that "wow, I'm the one with the problem, not Rev. Wright!"
If so, you are living in a little fantasy world of your own creation. It was one thing to be asked to re-examine the contents of our hearts by Martin Luther King Jr, who counseled us to love each other and to judge each other by the content of our character. It's another to be asked to wade through the rantings of Rev. Wright to find an occasional flower in the mud.
But keep blaming the voters for "not getting it," that's a great strategy. I'm off to score my tickets to McCain's inaugural parade now.
"I wonder if a lot of the posters here ever imagined that they would spend so much mental energy and time defending the indefensible"
I think they did, when they considered the alternative.
"And to what end? To support a political candidate?"
No, to keep one from getting elected.
Thanks to the revelations regarding Reverend Wright, it's becoming a choice that boils down to what you find more offensive:
The cherry-picked words of a person who is not on the ballot,
OR
The repeated promises of more war and death from someone who is.
This is quoted from an article by Kathryn Jean Lopez in National Review Onliine. The full article is linked here.
This paragraph explains the difference in the McCain-Hagee and Obama-Wright situation:
"Now, I wish John McCain hadn’t courted and accepted the endorsement of anti-Catholic evangelical pastor John Hagee to help him clinch the nomination, but McCain-Hagee and Obama-Wright simply don’t compare. Hagee and McCain ain’t Wright and Obama. Hagee didn’t marry John and Cindy McCain. Hagee didn’t inspire one of McCain’s books. McCain didn’t choose to make Hagee a key part of his family life."
That's it folks. Oblama's judgment is in question for being a member of Wright's church for 20 years and not distancing himself from the blatantly racist rhetoric.
GF,
If this is a judgment question for you, was it good judgment, in your mind, for McCain to name Parsley a "spiritual advisor" after being able to find information about his views? Was it "good judgment" for McCain to seek the endorsement of Hagee while being able to know what he stands for?
Why or why not?
"If this is a judgment question for you, was it good judgment, in your mind, for McCain to name Parsley a "spiritual advisor" after being able to find information about his views? Was it "good judgment" for McCain to seek the endorsement of Hagee while being able to know what he stands for?
Why or why not?" friedbergboy1422
Well - I did some digging and found out , not surprisingly, that Pastor Hagee's comments were completely mis-characterized. Here is a quote from his response posted on his website linked here:
"Many in the media have mistakenly accepted characterizations of my statements which simply are not true. I never called the Catholic Church the "anti-Christ" a "false cult system" “the apostate church” or the “great whore” of Revelations. This is a serious misinterpretation of my words. When I use these terms, I am referring to those Christians who ignore the Gospels and embrace the false doctrines of Jew-hatred and anti-Semitism." Pastor John Hagee
So, no, I do not question McCain's judgment for seeking his endorsement.
GF,
Even if you believe Hagee on that one, what do you make of this one:
"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6097362
Check out the quotes from his books detailed on Wiki about his anti-Catholicism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee#cite_note-terrygross-36
Check out all the information on that page.
What about Rod Parsley? Do you think McCain showed good judgment in choosing a man who thinks that Christianity should declare war on Islam as a spiritual advisor?
Just sticking my nose in here after many many moons away...
No surprise here that we're already getting revisionist "interpretations" of Hagee, Parsley, Robertson, Falwell, and so on and so on, to the effect of "they didn't really say that" even in the face of direct quotations. I get Hagee on three different channels on my cable system, Rod Parsley I believe on two. Trust me, they are every bit as virulent as advertised!
So why all the revisionism? The Right needs to have a fallback so that when someone finally gets the point across--props to Rachel Maddow for at least making the attemtp once in a while--that McCain's sin in seeking the endorsements of Hagee, Robertson, and (in the past) Falwell is far worse than Obama's in joining Wright's church, they have a way of deflecting the criticism.
How? Listen to all these people screaming about "well, what about Obama getting married there, what about his having his children baptized by/inspired to write a book by/(for all I know) shared barbecue with this racist black (they never forget to use the word, after all) pastor. Somehow being Wright's parishioner is a bad act in itself! So let's compare...
Here's what I see--Obama joined that church 20 years ago, well before all the infamously YouTubed comments. McCain actively sought the endorsements of these "ministers" Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, and Parsley knowing perfectly well their public proclamations about gays, women, Islam, Catholicism (Hagee's disclaimer is patently false--I've listened to his show, albeit with a barf bag at my side) that these people have already made. So McCain actively sought to be endorsed by these bigots.
So what to do? Obviously, revise what Hagee/Robertson/et al actually said so that associating with them is not damaging. All the while playing Obama/Wright 24/7...sorry if I', incoherent. Been a while since I've been between the lions, so to speak...
Welcome back, LWC. Great post.
I was merely asking how McCain gets away with seeking the endorsements of these men without notice. The best response so far is in the form of a quote from one of the controversial preachers himself. Would Wright ever get that much latitude? Why won't the media tape Hagee and play his quotes?
I know the closeness between Obama and Wright is much tighter. I also know they have been tight for years, but that does not mean that everything Wright says can be given to Obama. However, McCain actively courts extremely controversial endorsements and almost no attention is paid, why?
FB,
You're equivocating. This is not about John McCain - It's about Barack Obama and his 20-year relationship with his pastor who has shown himself to be a racist. Do you think Obama used good judgment? I think this will hurt him.
I predict he will win the Democatic nomination, but this issue, among others, will hurt him and McCain will have the upper hand win the general election.
GF,
The thread was on Kristol's downplaying of Parsley and Hagee. Do I think Obama used good judgment by going to a church where his minister said controversial things? Well, if he had only said those things, no. Do we know the content of Wright's sermons from the time Obama started going to that church? The only ones I have seen have been post 9/11. However, the chickens coming back to roost thing was an analogy he quoted from a higher-up in the Reagan administration.
Look, I don't think that Wright speaks for Obama. I like Obama's response to the controversey, and to me, its a dead issue. If Obama is elected and starts calling on Wright for advice on Supreme Court nominees, like Bush has with Dobson, et al, then I will have a problem.
I know Obama's association with Wright is stronger than Hagee/Parsley's with McCain, but I still want to know if you think McCain is showing good judgment in going after the endorsements of those two. McCain chose Parlsey as a spiritual guide recently. Is that good judgment in your opinion? Kristol seems to be completely downplaying both Hagee and Parsley. McCain went after their endorsements. Why? McCain has more of a connection with those two than Obama has with Farrakhan, wouldn't you agree? Yet, Obama was asked many questions about Farrakhan and McCain has not distanced himself from Parsley or been asked to by the media. Why?
Could you please send me some links where Wright is directly making racist statements towards whites and not making statements about the country?
FBB
Racist Quotes from Pastor Wright from this website:
– September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”
– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”
– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”
– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”
– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”
– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”
– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”
– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”
– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this shit!”
if it look like racism, talks like racism, and smells like racism...it probably is
GF,
Thanks for taking the time to look up those quotes. First of all, you never answered my question regarding whether McCain showed good judgment in seeking the endorsements of such controversial figures. Taking the word of Hagee after hopefully reading my links with quotes from his book would hopefully show you he is being disingenuous at best. It would be like me posting something from Rev. Wright about his quotes. You would laugh me off of the board. As to your quotes:
– September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”
A racist quote would directly place white people in a bad light. I don't see this as a racist quote at all. I see it as an anti-government or even maybe anti-American, but not racist because he is not singling out a race for his rant.
– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”
How in the world is that quote racist?
– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”
That was a take off on a point from former Reagan ambassador Edward Peck. Here is the quote in context. If you believe Reverend Wright is a racist and Obama is, you probably believe the same about Reagan, right? Here is the full quote from Wright:
“I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man, and he was upsetting the FOX News commentators to no end, he pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, he pointed out that what Malcolm X said when he was silenced by Elijah Mohammad was in fact true, he said Americas chickens, are coming home to roost.” Interesting, eh?
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/
– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”
Again, how is this racist? Is the government entirely white?
– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”
How is this racist? Is he wrong? Who predominantly controls the wealth in this country?
– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”
Again, how is this racist? I doubt Hillary has been called that word and I bet the sexism directed at her is nothing like the racism Wright and Obama have experienced.
– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”
Is he invoking Clinton's race here?
– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”
Number one IS a fact. How is this a racist quote against white people?
– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this shit!”
This one I might concede, but all he is doing is pointing out that there is a lot of racism in this country, is he not? Where is he putting down white people? Have you heard of the Tuskegee experiment?
http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/Story.asp?s=1207586
"if it look like racism, talks like racism, and smells like racism...it probably is "--GF
GF, if you believe those are "racist" quotes, you must think of Savage, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly are all far more racist than Reverend Wright. There was only, maybe one quote in that list that impugned whiteness or white people. If you think Reverend Wright is a racist for those statements you are almost forced to concede that O'Reilly is a blatant racist for the Harlem incident, Hannity is a racist every time he speaks on the subject by trying to reverse things, Limbaugh is an incredible racist for his telling a caller to "take the bone out of his nose" and call him back, his "satire" about the NBA, his "Barack the Magic Negro" song (listen to the voices he uses when the skits are aired), the Donovan McNabb controversey, etc. To me, those guys "sound" more racist than Wright ever has because they pick on specific examples and areas of society that are completely black. Most of the Wright quotes you listed were about the government.
FBB,
I still think your equivocating by not admitting that Wright's comments were reprehensible. Think about the uproar on this very website when Don Imus made his infamous comment.
Look, I guess that my point in all this is that it DOES matter who you associate yourself with. I will concede that McCain is pandering to the religious right when he seeks the endorsement of Hagee and Parsley. I also think he genuinely didn't know about some of the specific inflammatory things they have said - and McCain would be wise to distance himself.
But how could Obama sit there for 20 years and not think to himself that this could come back to haunt him?
Here's a quote from Mark Steyn on the Obama - Wright controversy:
"All Senator Obama will say is that "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." And in that he may be correct. There are many preachers who would be happy to tell their congregations "God damn America." But Barack Obama is not supposed to be the candidate of the America-damners: He's not the Reverend Al Sharpton or the Reverend Jesse Jackson or the rest of the racial grievance-mongers. Obama is meant to be the man who transcends the divisions of race, the candidate who doesn't damn America but "heals" it — if you believe, as many Democrats do, that America needs healing."
The full article can be found here. Steyn hits it right on the head as usual.
GF,
Your first couple of posts on the subject say that Wright's quotes were racist, but now you are changing your wording to "reprehensible." Which argument are you making? Are the statements racist or reprehensible? I will agree that a few of those are reprehensible, but to me, they are nowhere near the level of asking for a war by Christians against Islam or that God was punishing New Orleans when Katrina hit.
The G-D America comments are over the line for me, but the rest are at least thought-provoking. Nowhere, unless you believe Wright and that this country is ruled by all white men, does he invoke race specifically. The chickens coming back to roost comment, which you have not addressed, came from a former Reagan Ambassador. Does that make him an American hater? Since Reagan had a long association with him, does that make you think Reagan hates America? Absolutely not!
McCain, Obama, or any other candidate have run out of excuses for not knowing what these people say with the power of the internet. That said, Obama, to me, has satisfactorily distanced himself from some of the powerful rhetoric. McCain, on the other hand, has recently appeared with Parsley at a campaign rally joining him side-by-side.
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html
Read that article and explain to me why Obama has to distance himself from Farrakhan (whom he never courted) and why McCain gets a pass for associating himself with this guy.
Ah yes, of course! When all else fails, bring up that war vote! That vote that Obama would NEVER have cast had he been in the Senate at the time- and never you mind that he HIMSELF said he didn't know how he would have voted then- the only thing that matters is that YOU think he wouldn't have authorized the use of force!
And never mind that he's voted right along with Hillary to continue funding the war! Lalalalalala,, my fingers are in my ears, I can't hear you!
And never mind that the war vote has NOTHING TO DO with the topic under discussion. Nope, when you are down to your last grenade, you throw it, and damn logic and consistency.
Hillary voted for the Resolution to authorize the use of force. Obama says he doesn't know how he would have voted (which makes him Anti-War, I guess.) His pastor is a racist. Happy now?
"When all else fails, bring up that war vote!"
Was that in reply to me? It's hard to imagine that it was, since I mentioned absolutely nothing about the resolution authorizing force.
That vote is history now and what the future holds for the occupation of Iraq is far more important.
Obama says he'll end it. McCain says he's fine with another 100 years.
We will see if she will lose.
She will lose, even if the superdelegates give it to her, she will lose.
Lalalalalala,, my fingers are in my ears, I can't hear you!
THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!
Hillary what should be done about the housing forecloseures that, in conjunction with the occupation you helped authorize, are reeking havoc on the economy?
"an emergency working group on foreclosures" to recommend new ways to confront housing finance troubles."
Sounds great, right?
"She said the panel should be led by financial experts such as Robert Rubin, who was treasury secretary in her husband's administration, and former Federal Reserve chairmen Alan Greenspan and Paul Volcker."
Say? Wait a second. Where have I heard that Greenspan name before? Oh, that's right, he's the guy who sat on his thumb fantasizing about Ayn Rand as predatory lenders ran roughshod over misinformed home buyers.
Good call. Real good call.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080324/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_housing
I'm still wondering from all of you, who seem to think that Wright made some sort of racist tirade, what exactly was racist about it? You all keep repeating that he's a racist, but there's no proof of it. If he was, white folks wouldn't be allowed in his church. If he were, would he have white friends? If he were a racist, wouldn't he be talking about overpowering the white man, just because he's white?
He does none of these things. Is he a little unhinged maybe and angry about a lot of ills that have been visited on the black race in America? You bet. Racist, I haven't heard, nor seen, one little shred of evidence that he is.
But in the wingnut world, and increasingly in the Hillary supporter world, apparently if you say things enough times, it will be true eventually.
And, you all keep ignoring the basic fact that Wright said these things, not Obama. I suggest the same thing for McCain and his band of merry cohorts that have been supporting him. Parsely, Hagee et all on the McCain side, THOSE guys said those things, NOT McCain.
This would be like trying to say Senator Clinton is an adulterous woman because her husband had an affair. Sounds ridiculous right? Well, same thing goes for what Wright said. Obama isn't saying these things, Wright is, and it's as simple as that. Listen to what Obama says. Read his policy positions. Anyone, except for the deranged, can clearly see that even though Wright is a friend of his, a close friend, there are a lot of things that they disagree on. Keep ignoring the facts.
It's funny. When some right winged nutjob comes out and talks about how gays are the biggest problem in America, and that bad things that have happened in America are because we lost our moral compass somewhere, and that because we're not a theocractic nation, the good Christian soldiers need to rise up and overthrow the government, generally, we with solid thinking skills tend to disparage the person making the remarks, and not anyone who might be their friend (unless they make the same sort of stupid silly remark). We place the blame for the remarks on the person that MADE them, not some surrogate.
What happened to the republican credo of "personal responsibility"? Why does Obama have to distance himself from something that he didn't do? They should be pointing their gnarled little fingers at Wright, but instead, they're turning themselves inside out pointing them at Obama instead.
You know, it's funny to see how this has evolved. First, Obama is a dirty Muslim, educated in a radical madrassa somewhere in a country that most people don't know about. Turns out, there's no truth to this, so it sort of goes away, although it is still rolling around on the internets. Next, he's an apostate Muslim, meaning it's even worse, because he has turned his back on his religion, which of course, we know is not true, since his dad and uncle were atheists. Then, his church is some crazed black power thing. We find out, not true, again. And of course, remember, liberals (as they keep saying Obama is LEFT of McGovern) are supposed to be God-less heathens, who don't place much stock in religion or faith. And then we have Obama's friend and pastor, Jeremiah Wright. Finally! Something they can cling on to. Never you mind that ultra liberals like Obama are not even supposed to pay attention to these guys like Wright and all, but now he's being painted as some sort of radical, and exposing his children to this alleged "hate" speech, and racism from the pulpit.
Please, it's all ridiculous. Someone once told me that race and power = racism. Look at the situation. What "power" does Jeremiah Wright have over, well, anything?
Amen Mags...but you know the Obama supporters are unhinged and full of hate...crazy people who think that just because you are ahead in states and delegates that that means something...lunatics I tell you
STOP HATING HILLARY, you b$#$#rds, you're lucky she's even running ;)
"This would be like attacking Obama because random individuals in the Democratic Party have endorsed him."
And of course we know that will never happen, right?