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CNN's Crowley, Fox News' Rosen cite McCain attacks on Obama's Iraq knowledge without noting McCain's misstatements about conditions in Iraq

May 29, 2008 2:36 pm ET

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SUMMARY: CNN's Candy Crowley uncritically reported that Sen. John McCain is "continually suggesting Obama wants to surrender in Iraq without knowing what's happening there," and Fox News' James Rosen said, "Obama's absence from the war zone over the last two and a half years, McCain argued, has left the first-term senator divorced from the reality that now prevails on the ground in Iraq." However, neither Crowley nor Rosen mentioned any of the misstatements McCain has made that have raised questions about whether McCain himself "know[s] what's happening" in Iraq.

193 Comments

On the May 28 edition of CNN's The Situation Room, CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley uncritically reported that Sen. John McCain, "continually suggesting [Sen. Barack] Obama wants to surrender in Iraq without knowing what's happening there, is itching for a fight and a headline," and that the Republican National Committee has "set up a website dedicated to clocking how many days have passed since Obama's last and only trip to Iraq." On the May 28 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume, Fox News Washington correspondent James Rosen said, "Obama's absence from the war zone over the last two and a half years, McCain argued, has left the first-term senator divorced from the reality that now prevails on the ground in Iraq." However, neither Crowley nor Rosen mentioned any of the misstatements McCain has made during and surrounding the recent trips he has made to Iraq, and during a Senate hearing with Gen. David H. Petraeus, commander of the Multinational Force-Iraq, which have raised questions about whether McCain himself "know[s] what's happening" in Iraq.

Specifically:

  • As Media Matters for America documented, after visiting Iraq on a fact-finding tour, McCain twice made the Iran-Al Qaeda claim to reporters during a March 18 press conference in Amman, Jordan -- one day after he made a similar claim during an interview with nationally syndicated radio host Hugh Hewitt. After Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT), who was accompanying McCain on the trip and stood by McCain during the press conference, whispered something in his ear, McCain corrected himself, saying: "I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not Al Qaeda." As The New York Times reported on March 19, Iran is believed to be financing and training Shiite extremists in Iraq, not Al Qaeda in Iraq. As Media Matters noted, CNN host Wolf Blitzer misrepresented McCain's error on the March 18 edition of The Situation Room.
  • At an April 8 Senate Armed Services Committee hearing, McCain asked Petraeus, "Do you still view Al Qaeda in Iraq as a major threat?" Petraeus replied: "It is still a major threat, though it is certainly not as major a threat as it was, say, 15 months ago." McCain then asked, "Certainly not an obscure sect of -- of the Shiites all -- overall --" prompting Petraeus to reply "No," as McCain went on to finish his question: "or Sunnis or anybody else?" In fact, Al Qaeda in Iraq is a Sunni Muslim, not Shiite, group.
  • On March 26, 2007, just before embarking on a fact-finding tour to Iraq, McCain told conservative radio host William Bennett that "[t]here are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today." When asked about those comments the next day on The Situation Room, McCain told Blitzer: "General Petraeus goes out there almost every day in an unarmed Humvee." When confronted about his comment on the April 8, 2007, edition of CBS' 60 Minutes, McCain, then in Iraq, admitted to correspondent Scott Pelley: "There is no unarmored Humvees. Obviously, that's the case. ... Of course I'm going to misspeak and I've done it on numerous occasions, and I probably will in the future."
  • On April 1, 2007, as part of a Republican congressional delegation, McCain visited an open-air market in downtown Baghdad. At a press conference later that day, a reporter asked McCain about his previous statement that he "could walk through" neighborhoods in Baghdad, and McCain replied: "Yeah, I just was -- came from one. ... Things are better, and there are encouraging signs. I have been here many ... times over the years; never have I been able to drive from the airport, never have I been able to go out into the city as I was today." However, McCain later admitted during his interview with Pelley on 60 Minutes that he was provided with security during his visit to the market: "I understand why they would provide me with that security, but I can tell you, if it had been two months ago, and I'd have asked to do it, they'd have said, 'under no circumstance whatsoever.' I view that as a sign of progress." As Pelley noted, McCain was accompanied by "10 armored humvees, soldiers with rifles, and two Apache attack helicopters circling overhead." Several other media outlets also noted McCain's heavy security during the visit.

From the May 28 edition of CNN's The Situation Room:

[begin video clip]

CROWLEY: For the second day in a row, Obama did not directly engage John McCain on Iraq. McCain, continually suggesting Obama wants to surrender in Iraq without knowing what's happening there, is itching for a fight and a headline.

McCAIN: Now, I asked Senator Obama to go to Iraq. I asked him to go back. And I asked him to meet with General [David] Petraeus and our great ambassador there, Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker. And I said I would go with him, if necessary. I'd be glad to go with him.

Now, why is it that Senator Obama wants to sit down with the president of Iran, but hasn't yet sat down with General Petraeus, the leader of our troops in Iraq?

CROWLEY: McCain is getting reinforcement from the Republican National Committee, which set up a website dedicated to clocking how many days have passed since Obama's last and only trip to Iraq.

Yesterday, an Obama spokesman called the whole thing a publicity stunt.

[end video clip]

CROWLEY: And just a little bit more from the Obama campaign. Again, Barack Obama himself has not responded to McCain's comments today. But here's what his spokesman, Bill Burton, had to say: "It seems odd," says Burton, "that Senator McCain, who bought the flawed rationale for war so readily, would be lecturing others on the depth of understanding about Iraq." Wolf.

From the May 28 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume:

HUME: Republican candidate John McCain is renewing his challenge to the Democratic front-runner, Barack Obama, to see for himself how things are going in Iraq. Correspondent James Rosen reports it's a way for McCain to highlight his strengths in an arena where he says, McCain does, that the younger man is lacking.

[begin video clip]

ROSEN: Kicking off a townhall meeting in Reno, Nevada, presumptive Republican nominee John McCain charged that Democratic front-runner Barack Obama is not only inexperienced, as McCain and others have long maintained, but also, in an attack on one of Obama's chief selling points, intellectually incurious, because the Illinois senator has only been to Iraq once -- back in January 2006. McCain noted pointedly that he has visited the Iraqi theater many times, eight, in fact, since the war began.

McCAIN: I learned from the men and women who are serving in the military. I learned.

He could meet General Petraeus and he could meet Ambassador Crocker, and he could see -- he could see the fact that Sadr City is quiet. He could see that -- with the [Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al-] Maliki government has taken control of Basra. He could see that the Iraqi military is leading the fight in these places with the support of American troops.

ROSEN: Obama's absence from the war zone over the last two and a half years, McCain argued, has left the first-term senator divorced from the reality that now prevails on the ground in Iraq, where commanders say last year's surge in U.S. forces has reduced violence to its lowest levels in four years.

But McCain, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, did not limit his new line of attacks solely to the war in Iraq. He also reprised a theme first sounded by the Clinton campaign about another war.

McCAIN: Senator Obama is the chairman of a important subcommittee that has the oversight of what's going on in Afghanistan. He has not held one single hearing on Afghanistan, where young Americans are in harm's way as we speak.

ROSEN: McCain's comments, particularly on Iraq, reflected a concerted effort by the GOP, as was clear from the new feature posted on the Republican National Committee website, a clock counting the days since Obama last stepped foot in Iraq, a figure that debuted at 871.

The McCain campaign first sought to exploit Obama's long absence from the war zone earlier this week when the Arizona senator proposed cheekily that he and Obama visit Iraq together. That proposal earned a swift dismissal from the Obama campaign, which responded to today's thrust by casting doubt, as it has for months, on McCain's judgment.

"It seems odd that Senator McCain, who bought the flawed rationale for war so readily, would be lecturing others on their depth of understanding about Iraq," a campaign spokesman said. "Senator Obama challenged the president's rationale for the war from the start. Senator McCain stubbornly insists on pursuing the failed Bush policy that continues to cost so much," unquote.

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    • Author by IRONY 101 (May 29, 2008 2:46 pm ET)
         
      Considering McCain's take on the war and his repeated misstatements how can he argue that visiting Iraq eight times has benefitted his knowledge and judgment? Unless he goes to Iraq just to lead cheers, or perhaps for photo ops, apparently he's not learning very much.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by historygeek001 (May 29, 2008 3:49 pm ET)
           
        Do you think he's not learning much or just ignoring facts about the Middle East that he doesn't like?  Personally, I would go with the latter.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 5:00 pm ET)
             
          I do not know if any of us understand what McCains thought process is.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (May 29, 2008 8:19 pm ET)
             
          Considering McCain had the gall to walk to an open market in Baghdad (while being guarded by helicopters and scores of troops) and claim everything is hunky-dory...I think that would support the latter possibility as well.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by mari2jj (May 30, 2008 12:44 am ET)
               
            McCain's problems when he visits Iraq are legion.  First he pulls off military from their job so he can have huge amounts of cover.  Then he brags at how safwe his is.  DUH!!!!  Then although he brags about his many visits to Iraq, I am unsure if he is getting senile, or is just careless, but he continues to confuse Sunnis and Shias.  Imagine someone posing as an Iraq expert who misses the entire crux of the conflict going on in Iraq, the hate problems going on between the Shia and the Sunni.  I suppose we can expect him to continue to muddle that very important fact no matter how many times he goes to Iraq and no matter how much he brags about his superiority over Obama.  I have heard Barack cogently discuss the Sunni/Shia problem with great insight.  Guess McCain, at his age, may need a dozen more trips before he can even keep the Shia and Sunni groups straight.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by mikerhyner8202 (May 30, 2008 12:21 am ET)
           
        Right, he should have just stayed home in one of the 57 states.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by pete592 (May 29, 2008 2:48 pm ET)
         

      While both reports do note the response from Obama's campaign, I believe the response was tepid, off-target and ineffective.

      Since the "liberal" media failed us so horribly early in the war (a fact that even Scotty McClellan recognizes), the Obama campaign simply cannot afford to depend on them to be critical of McCain.  Instead, Obama's spokespeople need to have a laundry list of McCain's Iraq gaffs ingrained in their memory that they can refer to whenever they are afforded a response to McCain's foolishness.  

      Report Abuse
      • Author by anotheramerican (May 29, 2008 2:50 pm ET)
           
        Not to worry Pete, that list is posted daily right here. :-)
        Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (May 29, 2008 3:03 pm ET)
           

        Oops.  That's "gaffes," not "gaffs."

        (Thanks Tommy) 

        Report Abuse
      • Author by IRONY 101 (May 29, 2008 3:12 pm ET)
           
        I agree, Pete, that Obama's campaign needs to respond specifically...and, further, I think Obama needs to follow up personally with remarks about McCain's gaffes, demonstrating how clueless McCain really is. Also, I think that Obama's toughness, which he better displays directed at John McCain than Hillary Clinton, will win him some votes. He needs to stand up and forcefully call out John McCain's bullshet. 
        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:16 pm ET)
             

          I agree with you Irony, it's up to Obama and his campaign to respond appropriately to this stuff, the media, specifically Crowley, in this case anyway, is reporting what Burton's response was, which I agree with Pete was ineffective. It's not her fault if she reported his response accurately, and there is no evidence she did not.

          At least the Governor is satisfied with the DNC and that's apparenlty good enough for him. 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 3:32 pm ET)
               

            At least the Governor is satisfied with the DNC and that's apparenlty good enough for him.

             

            Well, I'm not satisfied with CNN's and Fox News' partisan ignorance to McCain’s very clear and very readily available misstatements which they could very easily report if they were interested in balanced reporting.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:39 pm ET)
                 

              What it would sound like Governor if at the end of Crowley's report on what Bill Burton's response was, she said something like this?

              "Oh, and incidentally, since Bill Burton didn't mention these McCain gaffes, we will, here they are................................."

              They would rightly accused of anti-McCain bias, and they should be.  It's not their responsibility, in this particular instance, much to the chagrin of you and MMFA. 

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 3:46 pm ET)
                   

                Well, I'm not satisfied with CNN's and Fox News' partisan ignorance to McCain’s very clear and very readily available misstatements which they could very easily report if they were interested in balanced reporting.

                Tommy, I have to agree with the Gov on this one, Crowley is very disapointing, I think she is another media type afraid of being left out of the McCain inner circle.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:54 pm ET)
                     
                  Sue, I respect your opinion but I have seen no evidence that Crowley wants to be a part of some inner McCain circle, so I don't share your view.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 3:57 pm ET)
                       
                    Tommy, I also respect you however why else would the media continue to treat McCain with kit gloves?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 4:07 pm ET)
                         
                      Sue, The "media" is all too often seen as some monolithic creature with one agenda - I don't buy it.  There are certain instances of bias for and against McCain, just as there are for Obama and Clinton.  To just say "the media" is far too broad and general to pigeonhole into one bias or another, in my opinion.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (May 29, 2008 8:27 pm ET)
                           

                        I can agree with that.  I really don't care about bias all that much.  I care more about the information. 

                        I think someone can even have a personal bias - and that is fine with me.  However, they have an obligation to look past that bias to present the arguments and facts faithfully - even when their bias may seem inconvenienced by those facts.  Some of the media fail miserably at this and some do it very well.

                        Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:22 pm ET)
                     
                  I'm not a Crowley fan myself, but in order to criticize her here it has to be shown how she failed to perform her journalistic duties.  This doesn't seem to be valid criticism no matter who reported it.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 4:25 pm ET)
                       
                    CROWLEY: McCain is getting reinforcement from the Republican National Committee, which set up a website dedicated to clocking how many days have passed since Obama's last and only trip to Iraq.

                     

                    Really?  She was not obligated to give the DNC equal time?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 4:35 pm ET)
                         
                      Governor that is exactly my point to Tommy also. She basically told all the people watching to go to the RNC Website set up to lie about Obama , it was a free commercial ad to go to the RNC Website. 
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:39 pm ET)
                         

                      The link you provide elsewhere is about the "gaffe list".  That was in response to criticisms from the RNC about Obama's gaffes, which is a completely different matter.  You can see it encompasses topics like the economy and Czechoslovakia, so it's not a relevant response to what she's talking about here.

                      If the DNC issued a comment regarding this particular matter, then yes she would be obligated to say that they are reinforcing Obama's position as well.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:43 pm ET)
                         
                      And I forgot to ask;is the website in question completely devoted to this counting of days?  If so it doesn't really add anything new to McCain's comments, and a sufficient rebuttal should handle that easily.  It's not like she mentioned this specific website from the RNC and that opens the floodgates to any number of comments about unrelated matters from the DNC.  That's hardly balanced.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 4:53 pm ET)
                           

                        She quotes McCain at length, adds "reinforcement from the Republican National Committee" through its website and fails to provide the DNC or the Obama Campaign with equal time.

                        Also, it's clear by this…

                        CROWLEY: And just a little bit more from the Obama campaign. Again, Barack Obama himself has not responded to McCain's comments today.

                        …that she herself did not call the Obama Campaign, or the DNC, or go to its website.

                        There's nothing balanced about her report.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 4:54 pm ET)
                             
                          Exactly, she gave them free air time. It is shameful!
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:57 pm ET)
                             

                          I honestly don't think you even read my post.  If the website in question is just a day-counter, then that doesn't add anything new to what McCain said.  Why would that justify a list about gaffes regarding Iran, Czechoslovakia, the economy, etc?

                          Burton made a public comment.  That eliminates any need to call the campaign.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 5:02 pm ET)
                               

                            It is funny seeing Bra and Tommy on the same side.

                            Priceless

                             

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:09 pm ET)
                                 

                              It's happened quite a few times over the last few years.  I don't base my arguments on the premise that anybody is always wrong, therefore I must be right if I disagree with them.  I'm also more interested in honest evaluation than alliances or grudges.

                              There shouldn't be anything about my history that makes this surprising.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 5:12 pm ET)
                                   
                                Fair point.  Just lately there seems to be so much hostility from people accusing me and Bottlebonde to being others, to other childish thread taking. I am glad to see people discussing topics only. Its a breath of fresh air.
                                Report Abuse
                              • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:13 pm ET)
                                   

                                There is nothing surprising about it whatsoever, I have often complimented your fair minded evaluations, even though we often are at odds.  

                                But if our agreeing on this topic is "priceless" to some, so be it.....although I fail to see why. 

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 5:15 pm ET)
                                     
                                  I just explained why Tommy, lately the board has become a gossip room with attacks on among others me .
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Gotcha
                                    Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 6:59 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Case in point below by Tommy, same old shite as he insults my intelligence.  He makes it hard to stick to the posted item in question but I think I have here.

                                    Report Abuse
                            • Author by DorisRussell (May 29, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                 
                              Tommy and Brabantio tend to be very fair and open minded in my opinion. The fact that they agree on this should be no suprise.
                              Report Abuse
                          • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:12 pm ET)
                               

                            And Brab, to expand on what you are saying, Crowley does counter the RNC website day-counter with her report that the Obama capmpaign calls it a "publicity stunt", which it absolutely is, it doesn't even deserve further clarification that that. 

                            Then she goes on to give Burton's response to McCain's opinion, perfectly fair and balanced reporting.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                 
                              She herself sought no response from Obama or the DNC. She did a copy paste of Burton's statement as it was reported elsewhere.  9 out of 10 of her keystokes favored McCain and were his camp's and party's assertions.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:17 pm ET)
                                   
                                No response?  What do you call her reporting it a "publicity stunt", do you call that no response?  Read Gov, it helps.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:29 pm ET)
                                     
                                  I claimed that she sought no response, she simply mentioned something an Obama spokesman stated a day earlier.  This report by her is slanted and a clear bias exisits in favor of McCain.  No Obama quote, no DNC mention, just McCain's drawn our attack and the RNC's mockery.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:35 pm ET)
                                       

                                    An Obama spokesman's response is a response, duh.  Are you saying that because Obama himself didn't respond that that is bias?  Because that is absurd.  And she obviously did seek a response, where do you think she got hers from?  She reported their response to the RNC website, and she reported their response to McCain's comments. 

                                    Report Abuse
                          • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:13 pm ET)
                               
                            I read all 3 of your posts.  This is simply about Crowley's very clearly biased reporting. Why are you making it about a top 10 list that I "reported"?  She simply gave the what the McCain Camp and the GOP had to say far more air time than the Dems.  It's been very clearly spelled out.  That's all.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                 

                              You are the one who included the top 10 list, now you want us to ignore it?

                              Whew..... 

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:17 pm ET)
                                   
                                There's no point in holding it up to judge against Crowley's reporting.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:19 pm ET)
                                     
                                  Good lord, you spin yourself around so fast you have no idea what you are even arguing?  Comical, but rather pitiful.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:33 pm ET)
                                       
                                    More meaningless insults.  This is about Crowley's reporting and her inabilty to give equal time to Obama.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 5:40 pm ET)
                                         
                                      Gov, I'm sorry, but you deserve no better.  First you post 10 points by the DNC and then want us to forget them as being immaterial to some point you can't even articulate, then you keep saying there was no Obama response in Crowley's report, when there clearly is, in two instances.  So, don't blame someone, namely me, for constantly questioning your lucidity.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 6:49 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Crowley gave McCain and the RNC far more and better play than Obama and the DNC.  She went to the RNC website mocking Obama and reported it to her viewers, so all she needed to do was share with her viewers simple points made by the DNC concerning McCain and foreign policy; namely that he doesn't even know who is in charge in Iran and that he doesn't know the difference between Sunni/Shia.

                                        Report Abuse
                            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:22 pm ET)
                                 

                              Well, you wanted equal time for the DNC based on that list, right?  Otherwise I have no idea why you thought it was relevant here.

                              If the DNC doesn't make a statement about the matter, then there's no "equal time" to be given.  It's not like they don't know how to issue a press release. 

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 5:32 pm ET)
                                   

                                Well, you wanted equal time for the DNC based on that list, right?

                                 

                                No, I wanted equal time based on journalistic integrity, which you yourself brought up and claimed Crowley has shown in this report.  I disagree.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:40 pm ET)
                                     
                                  So if the "gaffe list" isn't relevant, then what response should she be mentioning?  As has been mentioned the day-counter was dismissed as a publicity stunt.  That was the full scope of the RNC's role in this, and I don't see how it adds anything to what McCain said.  So there's no need to go any further into it.  The RNC did something regarding Obama and Obama's campaign responded.  Both were reported.  The idea that she's obligated to call up the DNC and get them involved in it is rather strange.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 6:41 pm ET)
                                       
                                    She promoted the RNC's negative campaign message and did not give the DNC equal time.  And the only Obama campaign quote she gave was from a day prior.  McCain and his attacks simply got more airtime.  Period.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 6:43 pm ET)
                                         

                                      "P U B L I C I T Y   S T U N T !!!!", per the spokesman for the Obama campaign.

                                      In case you missed it again. 

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 6:52 pm ET)
                                           
                                        This is about equal time and McCain got 92% of it in Crowley's report.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 7:10 pm ET)
                                             

                                          So if McCain makes a long speech and Obama's campaign refutes it with a single sentence, is that unfair reporting?  They're supposed to dig up material from the DNC to make up that imbalance?

                                          Again, what equal time are you expecting if the DNC doesn't comment on the matter?  They're not involved. 

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 10:57 pm ET)
                                               
                                            This report was all about attacking Obama on Iraq - it was free air time for McCain and the RNC and their attacks on Obama.  The DNC has had plenty to say about McCain on Iraq and CNN gave them no play.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 11:20 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              I'm sure a lot of organizations have things to say about McCain and Iraq.  How are any of them involved in this story?
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 7:27 am ET)
                                                   

                                                The point here is that Crowley put together a report that could have been produced by the McCain Campaign.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 7:51 am ET)
                                                     
                                                  Then why did she include the Obama campaign's rebuttals?  You think they're insufficient, then criticize Burton for that.  Ridiculous.  Like if it were the other way around and McCain didn't fire back at something Obama said, a reporter is supposed to do research and then make that campaigns arguments for them.  Unreal.
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 8:04 am ET)
                                                       

                                                    Then why did she include the Obama campaign's rebuttals?

                                                    She mentioned a day old statement by Burton as a rebutal which she got from a press clip.  As for the "publicity stunt" statement, she quotes no one, just those two words.  And I think she got the claim that Obama's camp called McCain's trip challenge from McCain himself.  I can't find anything about Obama's ppl calling Iraq a "publicity stunt".  I could be wrong. 

                                                    Just to be clear, I'm not up in arms over this, I simply see this CNN report on McCain/Obama/Iraq to be slanted to McCain's benefit.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 8:54 am ET)
                                                         

                                                      If the Obama campaign released a statement on the matter that she didn't cover, then you have a point.  But I'm not seeing evidence of it.  If there's nothing more out there, then there's nothing more for her to cover.  Even if that creates some discrepancy in allotted time to each side, she did what she was supposed to do.

                                                      Right? 

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 9:19 am ET)
                                                           
                                                        She reported that the Obama camp called McCain's Iraq visit / attack on Obama's credibilty a "publicity stunt".  I can't find who said it or where it came from. Can you?  
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 9:30 am ET)
                                                             

                                                          My google search said it was from an email exchange between Burton and TalkingPointsMemo.  If that's true, then you have to wonder if she is just such a frequent reader of that liberal site, or if she got that information through Obama's campaign.  Either way she made an effort to get their side.

                                                          In any event, what needs to be demonstrated is that there is some response out there that Crowley isn't covering, not that she's conveying one they didn't actually make.  If it came from McCain, then either Obama's campaign didn't say anything about it (hard to imagine), or they did and Crowley didn't mention it.  Where is it, then?  Someone must be covering it, somewhere.  Even if it's just on the internet, press releases and public comments by campaign spokespeople don't just evaporate into the atmosphere.

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 9:48 am ET)
                                                               

                                                            My google search said it was from an email exchange between Burton and TalkingPointsMemo. 

                                                             

                                                            She did not quote anyone.  What was the actual "publicity stunt" quote?

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 10:29 am ET)
                                                                 

                                                              She said it came from an Obama spokesman, right?  Is there a relevant difference between that and saying Burton said it?

                                                              Like I said, if there's some other response out there that she's not reporting, then that's wrong.  But MMfA isn't making that argument.  If she called them up and then didn't report what they said, or needed to call them and didn't, I would think the campaign would issue a press release about that at the very least.  If they thought their responses weren't accurately or fully conveyed to the public, they could clarify and expand on it the same way.  There's a lot of media, so they have a pretty big megaphone to get their point across whenever they like.

                                                              So where are the actual responses from the campaign, if Crowley didn't represent them?  Where are the objections, the clarifications, the expansions of their views?  If they're not out there somewhere, then they're not being made.  That would be the fault of the campaign and nobody else.  Otherwise, you should be able to find something.

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 10:39 am ET)
                                                                   
                                                                If you don't mind, please show me where and who said the words "publicity stunt".  If Crowley falsely attributed them to Obama's campaign, that simply not right.
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by tommy (May 30, 2008 11:01 am ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  Gov, Are you for real?  First you complain how bias and lopsided Crowley is towards McCain, and now you say since there is no attributable Obama spokesperson quoted on "publicity stunt", she must have made it up? Do you not see the mind-boggling contradiction in that?

                                                                   

                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 11:14 am ET)
                                                                       
                                                                    Tommy, we've established that Crowley misquoted here and delivered the false quote out of context. Please try and keep up.
                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by tommy (May 30, 2008 11:17 am ET)
                                                                         

                                                                      Gov, The way you have moved the goalposts so many times during the course of this topic it's a wonder anyone can keep up....next time I will check the floor to see who mopped you up before I post, sorry.

                                                                      Thanks Brab.... 

                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 11:29 am ET)
                                                                           
                                                                        You have not said much of anything, you're only able to mock me, not add anything.
                                                                        Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 11:05 am ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  Here

                                                                  So it appears that the comment wasn't about the RNC website, but McCain's proposal, and there's more to it than just the phrase "publicity stunt".  However, you have to remember that this was from a video clip of a previous broadcast.  In the original broadcast she might have aired more of his comment.  If she didn't, that would be a valid complaint.

                                                                  Google "Bill burton political stunt talking points memo" to see more links. 

                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 11:11 am ET)
                                                                       
                                                                    Thanks, Barb.  I think Crowley should have provided more context and afforded a few seconds more airtime to what's contained there, that's my only gripe.
                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 11:12 am ET)
                                                                         
                                                                      A molehill carved from a mountain.
                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 11:16 am ET)
                                                                           
                                                                        She failed to perform her journalistic duties by misquoting the Obama campaign and delivering the false quote out of contaxt.  No biggie.
                                                                        Report Abuse
                                                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 11:25 am ET)
                                                                             
                                                                          How did she misquote them?  "John McCain's proposal is nothing more than a political stunt...".  So I guess the only problem is that she made it sound like that line was about the RNC instead of McCain.  That is sloppy and misleading, and that would be a more valid complaint from MMfA than this is.
                                                                          Report Abuse
                                                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 11:28 am ET)
                                                                               
                                                                            The report is sloppy and misleading and that's my complaint.
                                                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 11:19 pm ET)
                                               
                                            The whole other part to this biased report is the simple fact that McCain is repeatedly on public record for misstating and not knowing what's happening in Iraq.  Why does a reporter need to be told what to say.  If she's going to report his attack on Obama based solely on McCain's recent visits to Iraq, then she should be able to report what he said when there, not just how he's spinning it now.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 11:25 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              What you keep missing here is that this is McCain's opinion about Obama.  There are no facts to check there.  Going into hypocrisy is worthwhile for us and for commentators, but it calls for subjective analysis and conclusions that are outside the scope of a reporter's duties.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 7:19 am ET)
                                                   

                                                No.  If Obama started making statements about McCain and Hagee and how late and lame McCain was in doing anything about the hate pastor, Crowley would be able to and would "report" Obama and Wright WITHOUT a statement from McCain.  The fact is that McCain screwed several times in Iraq and his documented lack of understanding in that region is something to report.  McCain thinks Obama is too young to be president.  Does Crowley need to check with the Obama campaign to confirm how or whether to report McCain's age?

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 8:03 am ET)
                                                     

                                                  "If Obama started making statements about McCain and Hagee and how late and lame McCain was in doing anything about the hate pastor, Crowley would be able to and would "report" Obama and Wright WITHOUT a statement from McCain."

                                                  That would also be inappropriate then.  If it's a factual matter, then anything false should be corrected.  If it's opinion, like Obama's judgment of McCain's behavior regarding Hagee, then a reporter should let the McCain campaign make the response.

                                                  "The fact is that McCain screwed several times in Iraq and his documented lack of understanding in that region is something to report.  McCain thinks Obama is too young to be president.  Does Crowley need to check with the Obama campaign to confirm how or whether to report McCain's age?"

                                                  Again, she has to evaluate and judge respective knowledge to make the determination that McCain is being hypocritical.  If she were to look at your age example and decide on her own that it was unfair, that would be inappropriate.  It's not her job to make points or arguments.  If it's a simple argument, then the response should be able to provide it.  If it's a more complex argument then you can see how someone who's supposed to be objective shouldn't be making it, since there's more to say for the opposing side of that argument.  Either way there's no way to assert that Crowley is supposed to be doing that in her particular role.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 8:08 am ET)
                                                       
                                                    Good points all. On this issue, I think she dropped the ball and failed to evaluate and judge that McCain is being hypocritical.  He was bragging that he's been to Iraq recently, I simply thing that what he said there is news.  But again, good points. 
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 8:58 am ET)
                                                         

                                                      If it was Chris Matthews who dropped the ball I'd call him an idiot.  That's the sort of person who should be evaluating, analyzing and judging this sort of thing, someone in a commentator position.

                                                      Thanks! 

                                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 10:28 am ET)
                                           

                                        "P U B L I C I T Y   S T U N T !!!!", per the spokesman for the Obama campaign.

                                        In case you missed it again.

                                         

                                        Tommy: I cannot find an actual quote for the Obama campaign on this... Can you?  It appears that Crowley made it up....

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 10:34 am ET)
                                             
                                          So she's manufacturing responses?  Wouldn't that very clearly be pro-Obama bias, since she's criticizing the RNC's actions of her own volition?
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 10:41 am ET)
                                               
                                            There is NO right why to report the words "publicity stunt" as words stated by the Obama campaign if they simply were not stated by the Obama campaign.  Forget bias, this goes to Crowley's judgment and credibility.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 10:51 am ET)
                                                 

                                              Are you serious?  Of course the bias matters, because you're arguing against yourself.  Which position are you now taking, that she was unfair to Obama for not filling in the uneven time or that she's unfair to McCain by acting as an agent on behalf of Obama?  Obviously if there's no other response from Obama's campaign and she just decided to help him out, then she would have crossed the line already and you wouldn't want her to fill up any more time with material from the DNC that wasn't issued in response to McCain's comments anyway. 

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 10:55 am ET)
                                                   
                                                The words "publicity stunt" were stated by John McCain and Crowley falsely reported them as the words of Obama's campaign.  That is just wrong.  Crowley issued this report from McCain's vantage point and that is also wrong.
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 11:09 am ET)
                                                     

                                                  So she issued it from McCain's vantage point, but decided to rebuff the "entire thing" by calling it a "political stunt".  That makes no sense whatsoever.  If she was really going at it from his viewpoint, she wouldn't say anything derogatory about his side.

                                                  This is especially true since Burton did make the comment as shown above.  I'm not sure why you think it came from McCain. 

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 12:16 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    McCAIN: Now, I asked Senator Obama to go to Iraq. I asked him to go back. And I asked him to meet with General [David] Petraeus and our great ambassador there, Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker. And I said I would go with him, if necessary. I'd be glad to go with him. Now, why is it that Senator Obama wants to sit down with the president of Iran, but hasn't yet sat down with General Petraeus, the leader of our troops in Iraq?

                                                    Burton: John McCain's proposal is nothing more than a political stunt, and we don't need any more 'Mission Accomplished' banners or walks through Baghdad markets to know that Iraq's leaders have not made the political progress that was the stated purpose of the surge. The American people don't want any more false promises of progress, they deserve a real debate about a war that has overstretched our military, and cost us thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars without making us safer.

                                                    Crowley: Yesterday, an Obama spokesman called the whole thing a publicity stunt.

                                                    She gave McCain more time and better coverage than Obama.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 12:25 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    I'm not sure why you think it came from McCain.

                                                    Because - and I admit this is pedantic but shows to me that she sought most of the info for her report from McCain - the words "publicity stunt" came from McCain:

                                                    "That is again a result of Senator Obama’s lack of appreciation of the importance of this issue. My friend, 4,000, more than 4,000 brave young Americans have given their lives. To say that, that my urging a person who wants to be President of the United States to go to Iraq for the first time in 871 days and see the situation for himself and to call that a publicity stunt is a fundamental misunderstanding of the gravity of this issue"
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 1:54 pm ET)
                                                         

                                                      How do you distinguish between her getting the phrase from what Burton said and getting it from McCain's repetition of it?  I see no basis for that determination.  If she just got it from McCain's quote, how did she know that it had been said the previous day and that it was a spokesman who said it?

                                                      I agree she should have given more of that quote, since Burton brought up the Baghdad market in particular.  That's a far cry from where you started from, but it's a valid complaint.

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 2:01 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        I agree she should have given more of that quote, since Burton brought up the Baghdad market in particular.  That's a far cry from where you started from, but it's a valid complaint.

                                                        No it is not a far cry.  I have been very clear that she should have given equal time to the Obama campaign.  She choose not to.  She cropped the quote and left out full and clear responses to McCain's attack.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 2:26 pm ET)
                                                             

                                                          Oh come on.  First it was that Crowley should point out McCain's comments like MMfA argued, then it was that they should have put up some list from the DNC because they're owed equal time for some reason, then she was manufacturing quotes for Obama's sake, then it was about presenting the report from McCain's perspective, then it was about misquoting, then finally it was about equal time for the Obama campaign.  Did I miss anything?  You didn't even know where the quote came from or that it was real, much less the fact that there was anything to crop for most of this.

                                                          If this had been the point from the beginning, I would have agreed with it. 

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 3:04 pm ET)
                                                               
                                                            Equal time has been my point all along but - yes - I made other points, as did you.  She mentioned the RNC so equal time for the DNC would be fair.  She aired McCain's attack in full, so the full response before and after "publicity stunt" would have been fair. That's all.
                                                            Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 3:07 pm ET)
                                                               

                                                            You didn't even know where the quote came from or that it was real, much less the fact that there was anything to crop for most of this.

                                                            Um.... that's because she did not report it correctly - she cropped what was a response to McCain's attack that should have gotten equal mention.

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 5:38 pm ET)
                                                                 

                                                              Whether she cropped it or not she still said where it came from.  You acted like you had some cause to accuse her of manufacturing it, when a simple google search showed otherwise.

                                                              The point was that you've shifted your argument all over the place, while you act as if you're being consistent.

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 5:43 pm ET)
                                                                   

                                                                The full response to McCain's Iraq quip (an attack she reported in full and with RNC backup), should have been reported here.

                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 6:01 pm ET)
                                                                     
                                                                  Yes, I said that such cropping would be a valid complaint before either of us knew of the full quote, so we're agreed there.  That's a non sequitur.
                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 6:06 pm ET)
                                                                       

                                                                    We did not know the full (and apt and quite good) reply because she choose not to report it.

                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 1:56 pm ET)
                                                         
                                                      I forgot to ask, are you sure that this quote from McCain came out before this report?
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 2:09 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        Point taken, I'm not sure.  But this has no bearing on the issuse of her cropping Burton's words and reporting a very limited response from Obama's campaign re McCain's attack.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 2:28 pm ET)
                                                             
                                                          I didn't say it had anything to do with that.  I was just thinking that your assertion about getting that phrase from McCain was highly questionable on the grounds I stated already, but if his comments came after the report it would disprove the theory without question.
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 3:11 pm ET)
                                                               

                                                            Understood, though the words "publicity stunt" were never stated by the Obama campaign re this matter.  My guess is that she got it wrong because she was too busy reporting McCain's attack and did not care to report Burton's full and, in my opinion, very solid reply.

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 5:54 pm ET)
                                                                 
                                                              She's not the only one, though.  Maybe his use of the phrase confused some people.  I admit the phrases are similar enough that I wasn't picking up what you were saying before.
                                                              Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 4:44 pm ET)
                         

                      I think months ago Obama said he would go to Iraq sfter the primary was over.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:54 pm ET)
                           
                        That's much more relevant than an evaluation of McCain's own knowledge, and something that should be mentioned.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 5:03 pm ET)
                           
                        I would be very fearful of Obama going to Iraq until he is President. I do not trust our nation . And I am sorry to say that.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 5:10 pm ET)
                             

                          I don't think he really has to go; there's more than enough information about Iraq in the public sphere.

                          Report Abuse
              • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 3:54 pm ET)
                   

                No, more like this:

                CROWLEY: McCain is getting reinforcement from the Republican National Committee, which set up a website...

                ...Incidentally, I was able to track down a DNC press release issued earlier today that outlines what it calls McCain's "Top 10 misstatements and outright deceptions."

                1. McCain doesn't even know who is in charge in Iran.

                2. Iraq/Iran, Sunni/Shia: McCain doesn't know the difference.

                3. McCain still thinks Czechoslovakia (which split into two countries in 1993) exists.

                4. McCain wrongly claimed that Baghdad was mostly normal.

                5. McCain called Baghdad market safe.

                6. McCain can't even remember how little he knows about the economy

                7. McCain falsely claimed he never requested pork.

                8. McCain falsely claimed that tax cuts increased government revenues.

                9. McCain's claim to be untainted by special interest money is false.

                10. McCain wrongly claimed he never supported amnesty.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by IRONY 101 (May 29, 2008 4:00 pm ET)
                     

                  7. McCain falsely claimed he never requested pork.

                  There's an explanation for that... McCain had dinner with Joe Lieberman and became confused about what each of them had ordered.  ;>)

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 4:04 pm ET)
                     
                  Hysterical, even for you Governor.  No, no bias there in anyway.  You're on it today big Guy.....
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 4:06 pm ET)
                       
                    Crowley reported on the RNC attacking Obama and did not give equal time to the DNC on McCain. Period.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 4:11 pm ET)
                         

                      Gee, I missed the 10 point laundry list of attacks Governor that she laid out by the RNC, which you expected her to do with the DNC's list.

                      In any event, we disagree again. Period.  I will muddle through. 

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 4:15 pm ET)
                           
                        She reported the RNC's attack on Obama's foreign policy credibility and gave zero time to the DNC.  
                        Report Abuse
    • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 2:49 pm ET)
         

      However, neither Crowley nor Rosen mentioned any of the misstatements McCain has made that have raised questions about whether McCain himself "know[s] what's happening" in Iraq.

      Exactly, this media myth that McCain is Mr Foreign Policy , yet he has shown clear examples in the past of misunderstanding Iraqi history, Sunni vs Shite. We also remember his famous Marketplace visit where Troops had to clear out the market. The Media can not and must not be allowed to let McCain get away with this. Or else the Bush third term will gain ground.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by anotheramerican (May 29, 2008 2:54 pm ET)
           

        J,

        So you support Rev.Wright's parishioner's candidacy? ;-)   

        Report Abuse
        • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 2:55 pm ET)
             
          AA, I proudly support Obama, and where he goes to church is only an issue to the Right Wingers like Hannity and Rush.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by doggone-ga (May 29, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
               
            and AA
            Report Abuse
            • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 3:28 pm ET)
                 
              AA does seem obsessed with the Rev Wright, last I looked Rev Wright was not running for President . Yet the right wingers want to keep him in the game.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (May 29, 2008 5:35 pm ET)
                   

                People respect gays and accept them as valued members of society. That is good. We don't need to tear down heterosexual institutions just to appease gays-AnotherAmerican

                This is also the person who believes the Swift Boat Liars told the truth.  Just a frame of reference for who you're dealing with.

                Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
             
          Seeing as how he's the only candidate with an even remotely sensible foreign policy and McCain has no intention of even trying to solve any of the problems we have on the domesic front (except of course to make sure that the rich don't have to pay any taxes - boo-frickin-hoo) yes, I am also a proud supporter of Senator Barack Obama.  If you think Reverand Wright is on the ticket, then you're a moron.  If you think a man that would court Hagee and Parsley is following a sensible path reagrding social issues, then you are an ignorant, bible-humping bigot to boot. 
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 29, 2008 4:18 pm ET)
             
          I'd choose a Rev. Wright parishioner over a Karl Rove employer to lead our country, any day of the week!
          Report Abuse
    • Author by BottleBlonde (May 29, 2008 2:52 pm ET)
         

      Going to a few sites in Iraq a couple of times a year doesn't make you an expert on all the ins and outs of what is going on in Iraq.

      Going to Iraq makes for great publicity for the candidate. It endears you to the soldiers you visit there. It makes shallow people think you're actually doing something. You don't need to visit Iraq to be well-informed about what's going on there.

      Top that off with McCain's distortions of reality about what's going on in Iraq, basing those distortions on his visits, and you get an even better idea of how hypocritical this guy really is. The only reason the market he visited was safe was because of the incredible American military firepower surrounding him the whole time he was there, yet he tried to claim that the market was safe.

      The market wasn't safe, but he said it was. We're supposed to be convinced that Obama would have a better idea of what's going on in Iraq if he visited Iraq like McCain has done?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by doggone-ga (May 29, 2008 3:17 pm ET)
           

        Good thing you're not a candidate for President!  "It endears you to the soldiers you visit there. It makes shallow people think you're actually doing something" - wouldn't MSM have a field day with this?  Asking why you are calling our soldiers "shallow"?

        And that's how it's done folks...cherrypick the statements...then deliberately misinterpret them, and voila!  Another "gaffe"

        And BB - please don't think I'm criticizing YOU.  Just using what you said as an example of how the Democratic candidate get caught in false "aha" moments.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 2:56 pm ET)
         

      Perhaps if Obama spokesman Bill Burton, when responding, instead of repeating the McCain bought the original flawed rationale so readily all those years ago, he would better serve his candidate to mention the laundry list of far more recent McCain gaffes with regards to his knowledge of Iraq.  

      You can't blame the media entirely when the opposing campaign doesn't even note McCain's misstatements in their media response.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 3:04 pm ET)
           

        http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/28/1072286.aspx

        Now can we? 

        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:08 pm ET)
             
          I am talking about Crowley's report, which is the topic highlighted here Governor. If you want to discuss the DNC, then you are off topic and just derailing the thread.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Governor (May 29, 2008 3:10 pm ET)
               
            I'm sorry, I thought you meant that you can't blame the media entirely when the opposing campaign doesn't even note McCain's misstatements in their media response.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:12 pm ET)
                 

              I figured it was pretty easy to figure out I was speaking either of Crowley or Rosen, and when I italicized what was essentially in Crowley's report as to what Bill Burton responded with, also in Crowley's report, it was only common sense and elementary to follow.

              I can't help it if that confuses you Governor, better to post elsewhere. 

              Report Abuse
      • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 3:39 pm ET)
           

        Perhaps Crowley could have provided the full response which she cropped and misstated:

        "John McCain's proposal is nothing more than a political stunt, and we don't need any more 'Mission Accomplished' banners or walks through Baghdad markets to know that Iraq's leaders have not made the political progress that was the stated purpose of the surge. The American people don't want any more false promises of progress, they deserve a real debate about a war that has overstretched our military, and cost us thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars without making us safer."

        Report Abuse
    • Author by IRONY 101 (May 29, 2008 2:56 pm ET)
         

      We're supposed to be convinced that Obama would have a better idea of what's going on in Iraq if he visited Iraq like McCain has done?

      Not only that...we're also supposed to believe that if Obama supported our troops, and if he and his wife didn't hate America, and if he didn't want to surrender to the terrorists, that he'd be over in Iraq visiting eight times like McCain. That may only be the subtext...but it's there, too.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:16 pm ET)
           

        The terrorists in Iraq are proabbly hidingright underneath those weapons of mass destruction.  I hope McCain finds them both soon, or GOD KNOWS what could happen...

        (my God these people are so mind-bogglingly stupid)

        Report Abuse
    • Author by IRONY 101 (May 29, 2008 2:56 pm ET)
         

      We're supposed to be convinced that Obama would have a better idea of what's going on in Iraq if he visited Iraq like McCain has done?

      Not only that...we're also supposed to believe that if Obama supported our troops, and if he and his wife didn't hate America, and if he didn't want to surrender to the terrorists, that he'd be over in Iraq visiting eight times like McCain. That may only be the subtext...but it's there, too.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by truthseeker77 (May 29, 2008 3:14 pm ET)
         
      Although Media Matter effectively exposes flawed news stories and commentary, a new study by the Pew Center conducted between January and March shows who, looking at the big picture, has been portrayed in a positive way by the media, and who hasn't.

       

       http://www.journalism.org/files/u29/LEAD_CHART_2.png
      Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:17 pm ET)
           
        What do you know?  Sometimes the media DOES get it right! :)
        Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (May 29, 2008 3:17 pm ET)
         

      Nothing going on here concerning conservative misinformation.

      Both Crowley and Rosen reported on McCain's critism of Obama with a rebuttal from the Obama campaign.

      The only way to meet mmfa's laughable journalism standards is to report nothing...unless it supports the liberal agenda. This thread is nothing more than thinly veiled political campaigning. 

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:19 pm ET)
           
        Agree. If the campaigns aren't up to appropriately responding to their opponent's charges, it isn't up to the media to prop up their arguments for them.  More wishful thinking from MMFA disguised as misinformation.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:22 pm ET)
             

          It's not the media's place to trumpet the false credentials of one candidate over the other!!!  How can you guys not recognize that that's what's happening here!!! Once again they are doing all the PR work for McCain, without calling him out on his BS!!!

          Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:24 pm ET)
               
            Trumpet what? They report each side's view, what more do you want?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:40 pm ET)
                 

              "an Obama spokesman called the whole thing a publicity stunt"

              Well DUH!  THAT'S your idea of posting the other sides rebuttal? 

              Why should the other side even have point out the misstaments and false assertions of the speaker?!  That would seem to me to be the job of the press: If someone (anyone now, this guoes for "my guy" as well) makes a false statement, or blows their own horn, right after taking their foot out of their mouth, it is the press's job to put this information out there.  If Johnny Mac mentions the marketplace, the press should remind everybody of the heavily armed escort.  If he claims vast knowlegde of the Middel East, it is important to remind people that he apparently thinks Al-Quaeda is in IRAN (not Afganistan) and that Shiites and Sunni's are apparently interchangable.  THIS IS IMPORTANT.  PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS!  Our collective ignorance of the middle east in general, ENABLED BY THE MEIDA (thank you Scotty Mc!) is what got us W. and this pointless, counterproductive and cripplingly expensive war in the first place.  So yes, SHAME ON THE MEDIA for continuing to enable public  ignorance when it is their job to dispell it.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 4:18 pm ET)
                   

                She did provide Burton's quote, not just the "publicity stunt" comment.

                Objectivity vs. subjectivity is the real issue here.  If it's Bush saying that the aluminum tubes were evidence to justify his war, then it should be pointed out that scientists said the tubes couldn't be used for any WMD-related purposes.  If McCain said something like "I've been consistently right about the war and have proven my knowledge..." then these things can come out.  Objectively it can be shown that McCain has been wrong and corrected in the past, so a reporter can legitimately mention that.

                But what we have here is McCain's opinion about Obama. It's not a matter of factual accuracy in that regard, it's subjective.  And in that case it's appropriate to get the opposing viewpoint, not to evaluate the degree of hypocrisy by oneself.  That is outside the realm of an objective reporter.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by Governor (May 30, 2008 3:41 pm ET)
                   

                Not to mention that she cropped and missated the Obama campaign's reply:

                "John McCain's proposal is nothing more than a political stunt, and we don't need any more 'Mission Accomplished' banners or walks through Baghdad markets to know that Iraq's leaders have not made the political progress that was the stated purpose of the surge. The American people don't want any more false promises of progress, they deserve a real debate about a war that has overstretched our military, and cost us thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars without making us safer."

                Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:20 pm ET)
           
        That "rebuttal" was a non-answer.  It was a dismissal, not a rebuttal.  They reported lies, and furthered a myth, without noting that it's based on lies, misinforation and media spin.  MMFA was dead on with this one, and EVERY article they call out in which McCain touts his foreign policy experience and is not called out on his obvious incompetence.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:23 pm ET)
             
          If Obama's rebuttal was a non answer, that is their fault, not Crowleys.  She reported their response to McCain's charges, fair and accurate. 
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
               
            She left out relavent facts and infomration.  She quoted obvious misinformation.  She did not do her job as a jounalist.  (She did do her job as a Republican PR operative though.)
            Report Abuse
    • Author by thomp.steve9098 (May 29, 2008 3:21 pm ET)
         

      Crowley's reporting on McCain's remarks about Obama, and Obama's lack of response. There's no suggestion that she misrepresented what Maverick said, or what Obama said. In this context, she remains objective by reporting the comments of the respective campaigns, not advocating the substantive flaws in either candidate's message. That's Obama's job. Had she reported the Maverick's criticism but not Obama's response, that would be misrepresentation. As a political reporter, she should let the campaigns fight it out and accurately report on their messages.

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:31 pm ET)
           

        Well said Steve.

        MMFA, and many here, have such a difficult time differentiating between fact and opinion, as evidenced here.  McCain's "suggestions" here are not facts, they are merely his spin and his opinion, his suggestions, his view - so there is no fact check correction that needs to be addressed by anyone.  What does need to be addressed is the response, their opinion on McCain's comments,  from the opposing campaign and that should, and was, reported accurately and fairly by Crowley.  

        Another WITH by MMFA. 

        Report Abuse
        • Author by DorisRussell (May 29, 2008 3:32 pm ET)
             
          Tommy, i have been on and off for awhile, maybe I missed something. What is WITH?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:35 pm ET)
               
            Why Is This Here?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DorisRussell (May 29, 2008 3:37 pm ET)
                 

              Okay.

              It is here becuase it is another example of media bias toward McCain .

              Report Abuse
              • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
                   
                And laying out McCain's gaffes, even though Obama's campaign had the perfect opportunity to do so in their reported response, yet did no such thing, would be an example of anti-McCain bias.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 3:56 pm ET)
                     
                  Leaving out relavent information that would contradict the [person's quote] is a classic trick of biased journalism.  If Bill Clinton was (for example) was quoted chiding Sen Vitter over his extra marital (DC madam) affair, don't you think the press would (should) point out that Clinton himself had some troubles in that same area?  Wouldn't you be upset to see something like that reported uncrittically?  Would it really be up to Vitter (in that case) to point that out?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by thomp.steve9098 (May 29, 2008 4:03 pm ET)
                       
                    I think your analogy would carry more weight if Maverick criticized Obama for not visiting Iraq in a year and a half, if Maverick himself hadn't been there either.  If that were the case, the hypocrisy would be glaring. 
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 29, 2008 4:21 pm ET)
                         
                      You have point, and I realized the flase comparison myself almost immediately after I hit "post."  But my point wasn't really about hypocrisy, so much as it was about the press (hypothetically) leaving out relavent infomation.  (I was just trying to come up with a pro-Dem example.)
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by thomp.steve9098 (May 29, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
             
          You too Tommy.  And furthermore, the Maverick's criticism is legit. Iraq is, and will continue to be, a major issue. You'd think that Obama would want to speak privately and candidly with the generals over there before formulating, (much less advocating), a policy. He should go there and speak off the record with the likes of Petraeus 
          Report Abuse
        • Author by wesley (May 29, 2008 3:43 pm ET)
             

           -- many here, have such a difficult time differentiating between fact and opinion -- Tommy

          Correctamundo...

          McCain has his own opinions about the abilities of Obama. Crowley and Rosen presented those opinions with the opportunity for Obama to respond. Both reports were reasonably balanced. If one cares to disagree with the opinions of McCain or Obama...great.

          But, this article has NOTHING to do with reporting conservative misinformation...just electioneering and pandering by mmfa...per normal. 

           

          Report Abuse
        • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 3:53 pm ET)
             

          Sometimes the one side vs. another side quotes aren't sufficient, when dealing with a matter of verifiable fact.  McCain says X, Obama says Y, and that's the end of the story when it's easily verifiable that Y is objectively true.  That is lazy journalism and encourages dishonesty.

          However, in this case it does seem like Crowley would be doing Burton's homework for him by bringing these things up.  While one can draw a reasonable conclusion that McCain's grasp of what's going on in Iraq is shaky, it's more subjective than the example I gave above.  She would basically be determining that McCain's criticism was wrong or hypocritical on her own judgment, which would clearly be inappropriate.  Burton could have very easily said "From the beginning of the war to his comments about...it is obvious McCain is in no position to question anyone else's understanding of the situation".  Then if she didn't report what he said or truncated it, that would be a valid concern. 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 4:00 pm ET)
               

            Good points. If McCain says X-fact that is objectively or verifiably untrue, then there is a real responsibility for the journalist to correct the record before putting it out there for public consumption - irrespective of what McCain's opponent says or doesn't say. 

            However, if McCain says X-opinion, then the responsibility of the journalist would be to at least give the other side a chance to respond, as Crowley did in this instance.  To go beyond that, as you say, would be inappropriate.

            I see nothing wrong with her report. 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 4:11 pm ET)
                 

              However, if McCain says X-opinion, then the responsibility of the journalist would be to at least give the other side a chance to respond, as Crowley did in this instance.  To go beyond that, as you say, would be inappropriate.

              tommy, the reporting was unbalanced, that is the real issue here. I am not sure if she meant to be biased, but she is and was.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 4:14 pm ET)
                   

                J,

                She gave McCain's opinion on Obama, and she reported Obama's opinion on McCain.  Exactly how is that unbalanced?  Each campaign's response was represented by their own opinions, if Obama did not effectively challenge McCain's opinion with their response, that is not Crowley's fault, as I have said.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 4:19 pm ET)
                     

                  Tommy she talked about the RNC and the web site, that was free air time for a propaganda site, she should have not mentioned that .  The best balanced thing would to of had a McCain spokesman and then the Obama spokesman instead she acted as a commercial for McCain.

                  inexcuseable and deplorable journalism. 

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 4:49 pm ET)
                     
                  What Crowley did is disingenious because you can get relevant information about Iraq without actually going there.  I think I know more about Iraq than McCain does and I haven't been there.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by JLyons (May 29, 2008 4:53 pm ET)
                       
                    McCain is living in lala land when it comes to Iraq. It is clear that Crowley is biased . She is shameful. 
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:02 pm ET)
                       
                    So a reporter is supposed to make the declaration that McCain is being disingenuous?  That requires judgment.  If McCain thinks that going to Iraq is the best way to learn about it, then that's his opinion and Obama's campaign wasn't denied an opportunity to respond to it.  It's not Crowley's job to determine McCain is wrong or dishonest in expressing that belief.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 5:12 pm ET)
                         

                      So a reporter is supposed to make the declaration that McCain is being disingenuous?

                      Yes.

                       

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:26 pm ET)
                           

                        So an objective reporter is required to insert subjective judgment into a report.

                        I see.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 5:40 pm ET)
                             
                          By reporting McCain's asinine assertion without criticism, she basically said that only the few people who have visited the green zone know anything about Iraq which is nonsense.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 5:46 pm ET)
                               
                            Which is a subjective conclusion.  Whether the opinion is reasonable or not is a matter for Obama's campaign to address, not for a reporter to do on her own.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 5:54 pm ET)
                                 
                              It's not subjective at all.  What McCain said is nonsense period.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 6:02 pm ET)
                                   

                                An opinion that being away from Iraq makes a difference in understanding is still an opinion.  "Nonsense" is not the same as factually false.  Reaching a conclusion about the rationality or intellectual honesty of a comment is absolutely subjective, no matter how justifiable that conclusion is.

                                Here's a test for you, just hypothetical of course:I think being in Iraq gives one the best means of fully understanding the situation.  Can you provide a fact that proves me wrong?  Or do you have to try to persuade me that it's not a reasonable statement on my part through argument?

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by BottleBlonde (May 29, 2008 6:10 pm ET)
                                     

                                  There are countless examples of eyewitness testimony that's been totally off the mark. I could link to numerous examples of eyewitness testimony that has been disproven by DNA testing. Other links would show professors proving to their class that eyewitness testimony is almost always suspect.

                                  In a group of people looking at any incident, they all take their personal biases into that experience.

                                  A much better way to examine an activity is to read and research the views of many people and not to get personally involved in the event. You can be much more objective that way.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 6:26 pm ET)
                                       

                                    But you can get different perspectives from what we get here by going over there.  Now we're trying to determine what the best method is for learning about things, which is debatable.  The word "better" here is demonstrative of subjectivity. 

                                    Report Abuse
                                • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 6:20 pm ET)
                                     

                                  If McCain said he was growing a beanstalk that reaches his heaven should that be reported on without the reporter calling him a nutcase?

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by tommy (May 29, 2008 6:32 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Absolutely, commentators could call him a nutcase, reporters would simply report it.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 6:55 pm ET)
                                         
                                      If the reporter is not calling him a nutcase than that reporter has no credibility.
                                      Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 6:33 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Are you seriously comparing an opinion to a claim of something impossible?  I think the matter of the beanstalk could be rather easily debunked in an objective manner.  And yes, I think something that far out of the realm of the ordinary gives a reporter license to laugh a little.  But this is pretty typical campaign spin.  If you can't factually dispute it, then you're reaching a conclusion, which is inappropriate for a reporter.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 6:57 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Are you seriously comparing an opinion to a claim of something impossible?

                                      I am completely serious.  That's how ludicrous McCain's charge is.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 7:13 pm ET)
                                           
                                        In your opinion, though.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 7:21 pm ET)
                                             
                                          It's a fact.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 7:24 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Prove it.  What objective evidence do you have?
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by bruce1ace (May 29, 2008 8:05 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Brabantio, you are one of the best posters around here.  I find your objectivity in these matters to be a refreshing read.  Keep up the good work!

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 8:44 pm ET)
                                                   
                                                Thanks!  I appreciate the feedback from everyone on this thread very much.
                                                Report Abuse
                                            • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 11:45 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Obama knows what's going on in Iraq; I know what's going on in Iraq; and I assume both you and Crowley know too.  Therefore, what McCain said is utter nonsense.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 29, 2008 11:59 pm ET)
                                                   
                                                If you have to analyze and evaluate people's respective knowledge to make your argument, that's subjective by definition.  Crowley would also have to make these determinations on her own, which is inappropriate.
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by loonz (May 30, 2008 7:16 am ET)
                                                     

                                                  The point is that knowledge of the situation in Iraq is not based on whether or not a person goes there.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 8:44 am ET)
                                                       

                                                    No matter how you cut it, McCain's opinion about going to Iraq being more informative than what you can get at home is still an opinion.  To say that Obama needs different perspectives to effectively judge the situation is an opinion.   You can analyze it and judge it based on its merits all you like, and I certainly agree with your conclusion.  A reporter, on the other hand, doesn't analyze, criticize or make arguments for either side.  That is why we have commentators, analysts, strategists and spokespeople.  There is a thick, flashing, neon-green line separating objectivity and subjectivity.

                                                    I think also something you should consider is that if you think it's appropriate for someone like Crowley to make arguments for a side, you're validating the "liberal media" myth.  The entire thing is based on a poll which showed that most reporters voted for Democrats.  Now, the response has always been that as long as they do their jobs properly then whatever bias they hold doesn't manifest itself.

                                                    But, if you think it's appropriate...no, not just that, if you think it's wrong to fail to criticize someone's opinion as a reporter, then you must want everyone to be able to do that.  If I'm a reporter and Bush says something hypocritical, my personal insights on it should be broadcast.  And even though I try to be as fair and objective as humanly possible, I'm simply not as likely to make the same sort of observation if it's a Democrat being hypocritical or dumb or intellectually dishonest, because I support that side.  So if you really think this is how reporters should work, then you validate the concept that reporters are expressing their bias, and so conservatives can dismiss them on that basis.

                                                    Something to think about. 

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by loonz (May 30, 2008 9:32 am ET)
                                                         

                                                      No matter how you cut it, McCain's opinion about going to Iraq being more informative than what you can get at home is still an opinion.

                                                      It's not an opinion; its fantasy and it should be called out as such.  Do you want to continue arguing with me (It looks like I'm not going to your mind and you're certainly not going to change my mind)?

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Brabantio (May 30, 2008 10:16 am ET)
                                                           

                                                        Is there a documented fact that asserts that being in Iraq doesn't help such understanding?  No.  You can point to incidents of him being wrong about Iraq, but that doesn't prove any fact, because there are alternate explanations.  Maybe he's lying, maybe he's a confused old man, maybe some of both.  You could get the best idea of what's going on by going there and then misrepresent what you learned one way or another.  For all we know, McCain might have gotten tons of information and viewpoints that bolster Obama's arguments about Iraq.  Since we haven't been there, we just don't know.

                                                        Do you see the point of the challenge earlier?  There's nothing to objectively refute any of that, there are no facts involved.  It's theory, logic, debate.  Can you make a better argument to counter it?  I'm sure you can, but the point should be clear that anything in this realm is inappropriate for reporters to judge.  They don't make subjective determinations, period, no matter how good the argument is.

                                                        If you can address this, I'd like to hear it.  You can change my mind by presenting a relevant opposing argument instead of bolstering my point with your subjective conclusions of "fantasy" and "nonsense".  And I really am curious what you have to say about your perceived role of reporters and how it relates to "liberal bias".

                                                        Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (May 29, 2008 4:42 pm ET)
           
        It's Obama's job and the job of a good reporter.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (May 29, 2008 4:07 pm ET)
         

      but also, in an attack on one of Obama's chief selling points, intellectually incurious, because the Illinois senator has only been to Iraq once -- back in January 2006. McCain noted pointedly that he has visited the Iraqi theater many times, eight, in fact, since the war began.

      LOL

      Yet McCain still can't tell the difference between Al Qaeda and Iran.

      Rosen should have added that McCain's previous visits involved lying about the current conditions, "[t]here are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods today." doesn't know that Al Qaeda doesn't get training in Iran, "As you know, there are al-Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they're moving back into Iraq." and doesn't know there are two spellings for flack jacket "By the way, Senator Obama, it's a 'flak' jacket, not a 'flack' jacket.".

      If Rosen is going to continue to report Obama's lack of foreign policy experience and lack of visits to Iraq he should also report the constant mistakes made the the man who claims to be a foreign policy expert.  If you're going to brag about the number of visits the press should at least report how many times McCain screwed up the facts in his visits.

      Report Abuse

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