Kristol asserted that "anyone arrested in" the U.S. has habeas rights -- but not under law he supports
SUMMARY: On Fox News Sunday, Bill Kristol criticized the Supreme Court's decision striking down portions of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA) and suggested that fears about that law's denial of the writ of habeas corpus were overblown because "American citizens ... and anyone arrested in this country [have] a right to habeas corpus." But contrary to Kristol's suggestion, the MCA explicitly denied habeas rights to noncitizens, regardless of where that person is detained.
During the June 15 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, Weekly Standard editor and New York Times columnist William Kristol criticized the Supreme Court's decision in Boumediene v. Bush, in which the court struck down portions of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA), and asserted that, in passing the MCA, Congress had "tried to do the right thing." He then suggested that fears about that law's denial of the writ of habeas corpus were overblown because "American citizens ... and anyone arrested in this country [have] a right to habeas corpus." But contrary to Kristol's suggestion, the MCA explicitly denied habeas rights to noncitizens, regardless of where that person is detained; in Boumediene, the Supreme Court struck down the provisions of the MCA denying habeas to noncitizens, finding that the Constitution guaranteed the right to habeas corpus to those held at Guantanamo Bay.
The now-inoperative Section 7 of the MCA states that "[n]o court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination."
As Media Matters for America has explained, under the section the court struck down, when the government arrested any noncitizen based on the unreviewed assertion that he or she is an "unlawful enemy combatant," that person's ability to challenge his or her detention effectively depended entirely on the government's willingness to provide a hearing, which the government could postpone indefinitely. Effectively, the MCA granted the president the authority to detain any noncitizen within the United States or outside its borders, for any reason, for as long as the campaign against terrorism continues.
From the June 15 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday:
KRISTOL: But in fact, habeas is -- almost all the time, a habeas challenge is after a trial when there's new evidence or there's something wrong with a man's detention, and you go to federal court and say, "Wait a second, we now know something we didn't know when this guy's being detained incorrectly prior to trial." That's based on established case law and statutes.
This is totally uncharted waters. It's utterly unmanageable. And I think what it means is Congress has to step in now and specify, "OK, if the court's going to make us do this, we need to set up a system of a national security court that can handle these trials." This has been proposed by Andrew McCarthy, the former federal prosecutor who tried the blind Sheikh in New York and has a very good book out on the problems of trying to do this through the federal legal system. Anyway, you could do it. You could have a national security court. Senator Lindsey Graham [R-SC] is working on this.
And I think you will see Senator Graham, accompanied by Senator [John] McCain, come to the floor of the Senate very soon, like next week, and say, "We cannot let chaos obtain here. We can't let 200 different federal district judges on their own whim call this CIA agent here, say, 'I don't believe this soldier here who said this guy was doing this. You have to release someone,' or, 'Let's build up -- let's compromise sources and methods with a bunch of trials.' " I mean, it's ridiculous.
So Congress has to act. Senator Graham and Senator McCain are going to insist on action. It will be interesting to see what Senator Obama's response is if the serious legislative proposal is introduced to set up a way of doing this consistent with the Supreme Court decision.
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm glad to hear you say that, because I think what you're saying is you're agreeing basically with the 5-4 decision, because you're saying there needs to be a structure, that you can't simply hold people for an undetermined length.
[...]
KRISTOL: Let me just clarify my position since you just --
WILLIAMS: OK.
KRISTOL: I think -- I just want to make clear: I think it was a very bad decision. A large part of me wishes that President Bush would stand up and say, as President Andrew Jackson said almost 200 years ago, you know, "[Supreme Court] Justice [Anthony] Kennedy has made his decision. Let him enforce it."
On the other hand, that's not going to happen --
WILLIAMS: No.
KRISTOL: -- and there's a real practical problem now with potential chaos and the release of either information that shouldn't be released or of terrorists who shouldn't be released, and that's why I think Congress has to act.
Congress has to now do the right thing, and -- but I very much agree with [Fox News Washington managing editor] Brit [Hume]. Congress tried to do the right thing before. There were -- there was a bait and switch by the Supreme Court. They've decided Congress didn't do the right thing. But Congress has to act aggressively now to prevent chaos in the federal courts.
WILLIAMS: Right, but what I was saying to you, Bill, was you have to understand habeas corpus was put in place literally to restrain what could be the unlimited power of the executive here.
You don't want the president deciding, "Gee, I don't like what Bill Kristol said the other day. Put his -- put him in jail." No.
KRISTOL: American citizens --
WILLIAMS: Come on. You don't --
KRISTOL: American citizens --
WILLIAMS: OK.
KRISTOL -- have a right to habeas corpus and anyone arrested in this country has a right to habeas corpus.
WILLIAMS: Right, and you -- but --
KRISTOL: These are people arrested in Bosnia, as you said. And how is the federal judge going to decide whether the intelligence was correct?
WILLIAMS: Well, that's what you said. Let's set up a structure, a process. And in fact, I think [Supreme Court] Justice [John] Roberts was right to say, "You know what? If you folks disagree with the current situation, you should, you know, outline exactly how you think it should be done." Instead, they have sent it back to the district courts.















if Williams would quit interrupting---
KRISTOL: American citizens --
WILLIAMS: Come on. You don't --
KRISTOL: American citizens --
WILLIAMS: OK.
KRISTOL -- have a right to habeas corpus and anyone arrested in this country has a right to habeas corpus.
WILLIAMS: Right, and you -- but --
What Kristol was trying to say;
American citizens -- have a right to habeas corpus and anyone arrested in this country has a right to habeas corpus.And we must put a stop to this!!!
In this case Kristol isn't just wrong, he's insanely wrong, and his rhetoric is so self-undermining as to be absurd.
That quote he cited from Andrew Jackson was originally "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" The context: Jackson was outraged that the Supreme Court had ruled in Worcester v. Georgia in favor of protecting Cherokee tribal sovereignty in the face of his Indian removal policies.
So basically, Kristol is saying that he wished that George Bush had reacted defiantly to this most recent bad Supreme Court decision the same way that Andrew Jackson had reacted defiantly to the Supreme Court's horribly immoral decision... to acknowledge American Indian tribal sovereignty?
Could there be a worse example that Kristol could have cited in defense of his argument? Or does Kristol actually think that Worcester v. Georgia was a bad decision?
Zacharious Moussai (don't know if I spelled his name correct or not).
American citizen. Arrested in America. Held incommunicado for how long? Years. Habeas corpus rights ignored, until someone representing him had to sue to get said rights back. And under Bush's so called executive power, he can define anyone he wants, as an enemy combatant, and get them tossed into Gitmo. Doesn't matter WHO it is.
That's not the only option. You can opt for a pat-down instead.
The only rights issue I see is disclosure and education. There are complaints that people go into it not knowing that it amounts to a virtual strip search.
Mag,
Moussaoui an American citizen?
No. Moussaoui is not a US citizen.
magnolialover may have been thinking of Jose Padilla, a US citizen, arrested in Chicago on May 8, 2002 and still in custody.
Like most of the detainees at Guantanamo, he was not arrested on any battlefield, nor was he actively engaged in any action against the US at the time of his "capture."
Mussaoui or Padilla...sunni or shia...I guess anyone can lose their way or their bearings or maybe just get old.
It even happens to presidential candidates.
The point, dear child, is that the detainees are often (always?) portrayed in the MSM as having been captured on some vague "battlefield" somewhere with a gun in each hand, WMD in their pockets and a burning US flag sticking out of each ear, screaming "JIHAAAAAAD!"
In nearly all cases (that we know about), they were merely yanked right off the street, or from their homes or at work.
Tell you one thing though, if I didn't hate the US in 2001...after 7 years at Guantanamo I sure would now.
Thank you, Republicans. You've made even more terrorists.
Oh, did he say a RIGHT to habeas corpus?
He meant to say the American government under the Bush regime is literally no different than a banana republic that locks up innocent people with no justification whatsoever.
... a simple mistake. Why all the fuss?
Why all the fuss indeed.
I say anybody who comes on here to defend Kristol should be made an unlawful enemy combatant. That's a preemptive strike against any WITHers or people who don't understand that our constitutional rights have been abridged.
Saddam Hussein.
"KRISTOL: -- and there's a real practical problem now with potential chaos and the release of either information that shouldn't be released or of terrorists who shouldn't be released, and that's why I think Congress has to act."
This is what I just don't get. If these people are so obviously "terrorists" why haven't they brought them to trial and convicted them by now? The habeus corpus ruling has absolutely nothing to do with "information that shouldn't be released" so I have no idea what he's trying to say there.
Simple. If the government has to justify why those people were arrested, it would soon become obvious that the government had no reason to arrest most of them. And that is "information that is too dangerous to release."
Following 9/11, I went to the dark side and thought Bush and Co. were just the guys we needed in there. I thought Rummy and Cheney were going to get the bad guys and I thought Colin Powell was going to keep everybody honest. I watched Fox News and I rooted them on. I thought this William Kristol was quite a brilliant fellow. Then, my then-13-year-old-son (now at U Chicago) had a heart-to-heart with me. He essentially deprogrammed me, reminding me of the values I had instilled in him.
After the veil was lifted, I saw William Kristol as one of the most evil men in this country. He has this constipated delivery that weakened minds may interpret as profundity, but I believe he's just trying to keep his lies straight. I now have a visceral reaction to this man; he makes me sick.
Well put, Iowa, but if you think this group is scary, read this:
http://www.truthout.org/article/john-mccains-chilling-project-america
Indeed. Strange, strange times we live in.
Those PNAC denizens are some unholy bastids.
good news indeed....
In fact, six out of 10 civilian foreign advisers to McCain are PNAC veterans. Even the newly appointed deputy communications director of the McCain campaign, Michael Goldfard, has been a research associate for PNAC. A die-hard adherent of the "unitary authority" of the chief executive, he recently stated that the framers of the United States Constitution advocated an "executive with near dictatorial power in pursuing foreign policy and war."
Why the hell ain't the press "jounalisming" the hell out of this???? Hmmmm??
Thanks for that link
A legal system cannot be perfect, the system can err on the side of individual rights; in which case some defendants will be let free who are actually guilty. Or the system can err on the side of the goverment's interests; in which case some innocent people are convicted and sentenced. The SCOTUS reaffirmed the tradtional American and Constitutional standard of erring on the side of individual rights.
Yes, I believe it is better for a few truly guilty parties to be wrongly set free than to wrongly convict innocents. The recent wave of death penalty overturns due to new DNA evidence should convince anyone that innocent people are wrongly convicted all the time, and we don't need to make it easier to wrongly convict.
Indeed, that is a fundamental difference (one of many) between conservatives and liberals.
Liberals would rather see the occasional guilty person go free than see a single innocent person sit in jail (or, god forbid, be executed). Conservatives, by and large, believe the opposite.
IMO, the belief that the net of justice must necessarily be so dense and wide that it even catches innocent people runs counter to the very foundations of liberty.
Sands, don't get your underwear in a big knot. Out of millions of actual criminals, only a handfull are let off because of legal technicalities or other failures of the system. (I work part time for a federal prosecutor and have spent some time discussing this issue, in fact he stated he would never be able to forgive himself if he incarcerated an innocent, and knows the justice system must err on the side of individual rights).
Since you know about statistics think about it like this. No matter how hard we try the system will always be imperfect (silly humans you know, always making mistakes). Eventually our efforts to perfectly catch and imprison every single criminal will result in a locked down police state where half the population is policing the other half. We have to accept the reality that there will always be some margin of error that is acceptable.
You are such a moron. See my point above. If a crime is commited, and an INNOCET person goes down for it: WHAT HAPPENS TO THE GUILTY PERSON?! (You know - there person that actually COMMITTED the crime?)
I'll answer for you, so you don't have to think to hard: THE GUILTY GUY GOES FREE. That happens no matter which error you make, you j@cka$$! Only idiotic right-wing nutjobs like you would prefer that we compound the problem, but not only letting the guilty go free, but imprisoning innocents in their place, just to make us feel like we're accomplishing something.
And why is it you people always talk about 'limited government power' but never when it applies to incarcerating people? Try reading the constitution, getting an appreciation for history and the historical context within which it was written, and then call me up and try to explain why you hate America so much.
no,but we could commence with a goodly number in here.
*snort*
Classic.
Troll gets spanked. Troll hail-marys obtuse insult at entire forum.
Buh-bye troll.
Injustice is OK, as long as it's not happening to you.
Yea, yer one stand-up American alright.
Boom!
And sandss981580 wets himself...
Sands, you and your like should work on that fear. It’s that kind of short term thinking that got us into this mess (to the extent the public pressure for retaliation against the Muslims allowed Bush to realize his wartime-presidency ambitions by invading Iraq).
In the medium and long run our nation and our military loses respect around the world. This tactical perfectionism you advocate comes at a high price. We lose the moral high ground we had in the minds of so many around the world.
Sands wrote:
>>and i believe exactly the opposite. err on the side of society, and imprison some innocents.
Too bad you are living in the wrong century. Why don't you go back to the 13th century, when kings ruled instead of elected leaders? After all, that is how old habeas corpus is. Or, why not live in a place like N. Korea. You might be more at home since you want to put the right of the state over the right of the individual.
"anyone arrested in" the U.S. has habeas rights"
In his mind, this is the BAD news. Now the GOOD NEWS...
(Oh wait, that's right, McCain going down and Obama gong to fix this mess. So... never mind.)
(Moron.)
What Kristol doesn't understand is that Boumediene v. Bush was an attack against rendition which brings detainees under the sovereignty of the U.S. government. If these "enemy combatants" picked up in places like Bosnia and Ghana, had been imprisoned in those countries, as well as in Afghanistan, this wouldn't be an issue.
Instead, when Bush had them detained in a place solely under U.S. control (the Supremes said Cuba's leasing of GITMO to the U.S. is a facade), they must be given basic U.S. constitutional rights, including the right to have a hearing on the grounds under which they are being detained. So the decision, allows court review of whether the detainees have been properly labeled "enemy combatants."
McCain-Graham-Kristol's idea of setting up a separate homeland security court system is a farce, and can only result in further determinations that the detention and prosecution of the "enemy combatants' is unconstitutional. Any persons properly detained as "enemy combatants", should be tried by court martial, if the government has enough evidence to prove its case.
Allowing indefinite detention in a place under U.S. sovereignty without review of whether the detaineed has been properly designated an "enemy combatant", would grant Bush absolute power to essentially kidnap any foreign person, take them to a location under U.S. control, and never have an opportunity to be heard, or even to have any charges made against them. That's not a power I would be willing to give to Bush, or any government.
At least we know what to expect out of KRISTOL, more RIGHT WIN HOT AIR AND BULL--IT.