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LA Times, Wash. Times uncritically repeated McCain camp's false assertion that Obama "propos[es] to raise taxes on millions of small businesses"

June 24, 2008 1:49 pm ET

SUMMARY: The Los Angeles Times and The Washington Times uncritically repeated the McCain campaign's claim that Sen. Barack Obama "propos[es] to raise taxes on millions of small businesses." In fact, Obama has proposed rolling back President Bush's tax cuts only on "people who are making 250,000 dollars a year or more," and according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, 481,000 -- not "millions of" -- small businesses fall into the tax brackets that would be affected by those increases.

83 Comments

In June 24 articles about Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama competing for female voters, the Los Angeles Times and The Washington Times uncritically repeated comments by McCain national communications director Jill Hazelbaker that Obama "propos[es] to raise taxes on millions of small businesses." However, neither article reported that the claim, which McCain and his campaign have repeatedly made, and which has been uncritically reported in the media, is false, according to the results of an independent, nonpartisan analysis of Obama's tax proposal.

In fact, as Media Matters for America has previously noted, Obama has proposed rolling back President Bush's tax cuts only on "people who are making 250,000 dollars a year or more," and according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center's table of 2007 tax returns that reported small-business income, approximately 481,000 -- not "millions" -- of those taxpayers are in the top two income tax brackets -- which include all filers with taxable incomes of more than $250,000 -- short of the "millions" that Hazelbaker cited.

From the June 24 Los Angeles Times article:

McCain's campaign, for its part, criticized Obama for recent remarks on uniting his party after his defeat of New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton in the protracted nomination battle. Obama privately told lawmakers that Clinton supporters would "get over it" once they realized McCain took the wrong side on women's issues, according to a Democratic congresswoman speaking to ABC News.

McCain communications director Jill Hazelbaker said: "When you consider women are a major driving force behind small business start-ups in this country, Barack Obama's proposals to raise taxes on millions of small businesses isn't going to help women voters 'get over it.'

From the June 24 Washington Times article:

The McCain campaign fired back, using Mr. Obama's own words from last week, when he said that once Clinton-supporting women realize "John McCain is not in their corner, that would help them get over it."

"When you consider women are a major driving force behind small business start-ups in this country, Barack Obama's proposals to raise taxes on millions of small businesses isn't going to help women voters 'get over it,'" McCain spokesman Jill Hazelbaker said.

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    • Author by SFnomad (June 24, 2008 2:04 pm ET)
         

      The Conservative Corporate Media has a theme they need to keep pushing.  Doesn't matter how much they need to lie, as long as they keep saying something often enough, there will be fools that will believe it.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by carlileb5935 (June 24, 2008 3:21 pm ET)
           

        One of the really hilarious lies these days is how the Los Angeles Times is a "liberal" newpaper.

        Any casual and regular reading of it will show many examples of stories being edited to give a particular right-wing slant, especially in the choice of headlines. It's obvious that the editors--not necessarily the writers-- craft these articles, usually by omitting sentences. I would suspect this last article originally included the missing information-- or at least a passing reference to it-- but it was edited out, deliberately.

        Often an LAT story will have a right-leaning headline, but when you actually read the piece, the story isn't there at all. This is no accident. 

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:11 pm ET)
         

      Small businesses fuel the American economy, job creation, income, etc.  Why would you want to raise taxes on some 480,000+ small business?  Make them raise their prices in a time that their business is already suffering due to the current economic conditions?  Raising taxes will raise prices, which will lower sales figures, and decrease employment and the amount of small business.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 24, 2008 2:20 pm ET)
           

        Yeah, I mean, the economy did terribly during the Clinton years, whne he raised taxes.  And those Bush tax cuts did so well over the last eight! 

         History is against you, my friend.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:32 pm ET)
             

          Actually, not counting the last year with regards to the housing crisis & oil markets - which have nothing to do with taxation, the Bush administrations economy and GDP have been quite well.  Now in regards to your Clinton comment, you are clearly leaving out the fact that it was about the .COM boom, and totally negated the fact of that market sector busting as well.

          However, I suggest you go look at the total GDP figures, percentage GDP increases, and the year by year standard of living data and then come back to justify your view....it'll be a hard sell.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 2:44 pm ET)
               
            And where does the $250,000,000 per day pissed into the sand in Iraq fit into that rosy picture?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:47 pm ET)
                 

              Wow, another totally off subject wanna-be justification.  Get a real argument son, you cannot blame Iraq on everything, just as not everything is caused by Global Warming theory.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 2:54 pm ET)
                   
                Please inform us how the Iraq War has no effect on the economy. I can't wait.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:55 pm ET)
                     
                  You spoke of the $250k/yr of small business income, and that they can afford to give up more.  Well, if they are being hurt by the iraq war, as you claim, then why do you want to tax them and hurt them more?  please tell me.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 3:00 pm ET)
                       
                    But they aren't paying for the Iraq War now.... they got a tax cut.... remember?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:23 pm ET)
                         
                      Um, not sure I understand that logic.  By that philosphy, millions of americans on welfare shouldn't voice an opinion on the war either...since they pay no taxes at all.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 4:07 pm ET)
                           
                        Who said anything about voicing an opinion on the war?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 4:18 pm ET)
                             

                          But they aren't paying for the Iraq War now.... they got a tax cut.... remember?

                          Actually they are, they just have decreased taxes....as opposed to many liberals who are not taxed AT ALL.

                          Again, I dont see your point.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 4:50 pm ET)
                               
                            I proposed that the Iraq War could have a negative effect on the economy..... you countered with the unrelated question about "hurting" the upper 2% with higher taxes. Non Sequitur much?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 4:55 pm ET)
                                 
                              I never said anything about the upper 2%, those words never came out my mouth.  You are defending tax increases by equating them with the Iraq War, which not even true.  The tax increases would go to nationalized healthcare, increased welfare, and global warming...not paying off any debt taken from the Iraq War, or using the taxes to benefit the economy.
                              Report Abuse
                          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (June 25, 2008 12:52 am ET)
                               

                            as opposed to many liberals who are not taxed AT ALL.- Columbus1492

                            There's a Liberal tax exemption? I haven't even been checking that box.Oh, wait, it's a punishment, because liberals love paying taxes.

                            Just kidding, Dumbus.I know you're just reminding us of the fact that conservatives are all hard working real Americans, and liberals are free-loading ne'er-do-wells.Keep up the good work.

                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by wzwriter (June 25, 2008 6:19 pm ET)
                               

                            ...as opposed to many liberals who are not taxed AT ALL.

                            Columbus1492's brain is not taxed - in fact, it does no work whatsoever.  :-)

                             

                            Report Abuse
          • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 2:56 pm ET)
               

            "Now in regards to your Clinton comment, you are clearly leaving out the fact that it was about the .COM boom, and totally negated the fact of that market sector busting as well."

            Now isn't that grand...who introduced legislation to take the initiative in creating the internet again?  Oh, that's right.  He "invented" the internet instead.  Sorry, right wing talking point absorbed.

            So Clinton had nothing to do with the economy for the eight years he was President?  Was it all the .com boom, or was it a combination of a myriad of factors, including Clinton's tax increase on the super-rich while giving tax breaks to the middle class so they could afford the computers that allowed the .com boom to happen?

            Before Bush was re (sic) elected, not one net job was created.  And that wasn't because of 9/11 either.  9/11 cost the economy a grand total of around 140,000 jobs, mostly in the air and transportation industries.  

            And the Republican majority in Congress, and Phil Gramm specifically, are wholly responsible for the mortgage crisis and the price of oil.  They introduced legislation deregulating the mortgage industry to allow this to happen, and Phil Gramm lobbied for the Enron loophole, which allowed the speculators to drive the price of oil.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (June 24, 2008 3:09 pm ET)
               
            Columbo - how about you go to your neighbors/friends and ask them if they are better off today than in 2000?  That's more real than any GDP or indexing numbers you can produce that mostly benefit the obscenely wealthy.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:25 pm ET)
                 

              My neighbors are not in financial difficulty, as they are wise financially responsible people...well, I am assuming most of them.

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:34 pm ET)
                   

                "My neighbors are not in financial difficulty, as they are wise financially responsible people...well, I am assuming most of them."

                You can still be financially responsible and by hap and circumstance, become irreversibly damaged into debt.  Happens all the time.  One traffic accident can change your entire portfolio.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:38 pm ET)
                     
                  Very true...but insurance is also a requirement.  And if you choose the cheap levels of insurance, well....you get what you pay for.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 4:06 pm ET)
                       

                    "And if you choose the cheap levels of insurance, well....you get what you pay for."

                    And if that's all you can afford, you're screwed any way you turn.

                    You know, it'd be great if everyone started off on a level playing field...

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 4:19 pm ET)
                         

                      We do, its called Kindergarten. :-)

                      Level playing fields are moot points when you factor in motivation, personal responsibility, etc.  The fact is, the "will to succeed" is a great self reliance tool, and some people just dont have it.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (June 24, 2008 6:10 pm ET)
                           

                        yep, I think we can guess who the "bootstrap-pullers" are out of these two groups of Kindergarteners.

                         

                         

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 6:42 pm ET)
                             
                          Yup, i bet we can.  If you want to compare a poor Asian classroom to that of a US classroom, then I suggest you stop complaining. 
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (June 24, 2008 6:55 pm ET)
                               
                            I wasn't complaining. I was just pointing out that your level playing field was a silly idea. Now that you've stipulated that only identical classrooms can be compared, I'll concede that the field is level where it's level.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 7:19 pm ET)
                               
                            How do you know the classroom is in asia?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (June 25, 2008 12:55 am ET)
                                 
                              HE'S COLUMBUS, DAMMIT!!! He knows his way around. Plus, there's all those foreigners standing around, not even driven-to-succeed enough to hook up their computers.
                              Report Abuse
          • Author by eddy3957 reregistered (June 24, 2008 9:56 pm ET)
               

            Actually, not counting the last year with regards to the housing crisis & oil markets - which have nothing to do with taxation…”---Columbus

            The tax cut ---unprecedented during war time---did and are increasing the deficit thereby weakening the dollar globally and is a factor in the cost of oil going up.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by BillJ-MN (June 24, 2008 2:29 pm ET)
           

        Those 481,000 businesses represent less than 2% of all small businesses.  It also represents only the most exceptionally prosperous of small businesses.  Those who just barely climb over the threshold of the cutoff would see next to no difference in taxes due.  Only a tiny core of the most extremely prosperous of those businesses would see any noticeable impact.

        The economic impact of this plan on small businesses in general is almost nonexistent.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by jawill11 (June 24, 2008 7:59 pm ET)
           

        You're buying into their idiot argument.  He is not talking about raising taxes on businesses, he is talking about personal income tax.  If someone is personally earning $250,000 from their small business, that's great and I wish them future success.  If their personal tax rate is raised by a percentage point or two, it will affect their business not one bit.  I defy you to prove to me how it would.  Any personal money that they would funnel back into their business development would be a write off no matter what their personal tax rate is.  

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Sueelldd (June 24, 2008 2:22 pm ET)
         
      As the months get closer to the election you will see more and more lies and complete distortions on Obama and his record and it is for one reason. To scare you economically and racially.  Sad that the GOP and the conservative elements of the media are up to the old tricks again.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 2:24 pm ET)
         
      Yes, we all know how badly the upper 2% are struggling these days. Many are having to sell one of their half dozen homes, just to maintain their lifestyles. Yacht fuel is through the roof..... Lear Jet sales are stagnant.

      How can we ask these people to sacrifice any more?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 2:30 pm ET)
         
      So Jeter and Tommy, y'all willing to concede that the media will be shills for McCain? It's been a few weeks, I'm not seeing that Obama love y'all mentioned...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:33 pm ET)
           

        It's been a few weeks, I'm not seeing that Obama love y'all mentioned...

        It's kind of hard to show love, when 76% of the american public disagree with his energy policy (or lack there of) when it happens to be one of the most important issues.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 2:36 pm ET)
             
          It's hard werk for a con these days, isn't it? Spewing the same old lies over and over again in the hopes that something sticks while your candidate of choice just says whatever he can to get elected. McCain will throw a hip if he keeps flipping and flopping like he does...
          Report Abuse
        • Author by BillJ-MN (June 24, 2008 2:41 pm ET)
             
          I'd be surprised if 3% of Americans could describe Obama's energy policy.  That pretty much renders your contrived statistic worthless.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 2:42 pm ET)
             

          Here, go educate yourself on Obama's energy plan. Just saying stupid stuff like he lacks one is getting old...

          http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

          Report Abuse
          • Author by BillJ-MN (June 24, 2008 2:50 pm ET)
               

            Beatcha by 37 second. 

            Report Abuse
          • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:52 pm ET)
               

            The Problem

            Foreign Oil: America's 20-million-barrel-a-day oil habit costs our economy $1.4 billion a day, and $500 billion in 2006 alone. Every single hour, we spend $41 million on foreign oil.

            Climate Change: As a result of climate change, glaciers are melting faster; the polar ice caps are shrinking; trees are blooming earlier; more people are dying in heat waves; species are migrating, and eventually many will become extinct.

             

            Wait, is that actually an "energy plan" to fight oil independance and use our own energy....or a way to use the global warming theory to overlook energy?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:00 pm ET)
                 

              Columbus, do me a favor.  go back to that page that you pulled that from, and SCROLL DOWN!

              you missed this little bit of information:

              Barack Obama's Plan

              Reduce Carbon Emissions 80 Percent by 2050

              • Cap and Trade: Obama supports implementation of a market-based cap-and-trade system to reduce carbon emissions by the amount scientists say is necessary: 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. Obama's cap-and-trade system will require all pollution credits to be auctioned. A 100 percent auction ensures that all polluters pay for every ton of emissions they release, rather than giving these emission rights away to coal and oil companies. Some of the revenue generated by auctioning allowances will be used to support the development of clean energy, to invest in energy efficiency improvements, and to address transition costs, including helping American workers affected by this economic transition.
              • Confront Deforestation and Promote Carbon Sequestration: Obama will develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers, and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands, or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

              Invest in a Clean Energy Future

              • Invest $150 Billion over 10 Years in Clean Energy: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid. A principal focus of this fund will be devoted to ensuring that technologies that are developed in the U.S. are rapidly commercialized in the U.S. and deployed around the globe.
              • Double Energy Research and Development Funding: Obama will double science and research funding for clean energy projects including those that make use of our biomass, solar and wind resources.
              • Invest in a Skilled Clean Technologies Workforce: Obama will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade auction program to invest in job training and transition programs to help workers and industries adapt to clean technology development and production. Obama will also create an energy-focused Green Jobs Corps to connect disconnected and disadvantaged youth with job skills for a high-growth industry.
              • Convert our Manufacturing Centers into Clean Technology Leaders: Obama will establish a federal investment program to help manufacturing centers modernize and Americans learn the new skills they need to produce green products.
              • Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund: Obama will create a Clean Technologies Venture Capital Fund to fill a critical gap in U.S. technology development. Obama will invest $10 billion per year into this fund for five years. The fund will partner with existing investment funds and our National Laboratories to ensure that promising technologies move beyond the lab and are commercialized in the U.S
              • Require 25 Percent of Renewable Electricity by 2025: Obama will establish a 25 percent federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) to require that 25 percent of electricity consumed in the U.S. is derived from clean, sustainable energy sources, like solar, wind and geothermal by 2025.
              • Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology: Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies. Obama will consider whatever policy tools are necessary, including standards that ban new traditional coal facilities, to ensure that we move quickly to commercialize and deploy low carbon coal technology.

              Support Next Generation Biofuels

              • Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.
              • Expand Locally-Owned Biofuel Refineries: Less than 10 percent of new ethanol production today is from farmer-owned refineries. New ethanol refineries help jumpstart rural economies. Obama will create a number of incentives for local communities to invest in their biofuels refineries.
              • Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard: Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers to reduce the carbon their fuel emits by ten percent by 2020.
              • Increase Renewable Fuel Standard: Obama will require 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be included in the fuel supply by 2022 and will increase that to at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels like cellulosic ethanol by 2030.

              Set America on Path to Oil Independence

              Obama's plan will reduce oil consumption by at least 35 percent, or 10 million barrels per day, by 2030. This will more than offset the equivalent of the oil we would import from OPEC nations in 2030.

              • Increase Fuel Economy Standards: Obama will double fuel economy standards within 18 years. His plan will provide retooling tax credits and loan guarantees for domestic auto plants and parts manufacturers, so that they can build new fuel-efficient cars rather than overseas companies. Obama will also invest in advanced vehicle technology such as advanced lightweight materials and new engines.

              Improve Energy Efficiency 50 Percent by 2030

              • Set National Building Efficiency Goals: Barack Obama will establish a goal of making all new buildings carbon neutral, or produce zero emissions, by 2030. He'll also establish a national goal of improving new building efficiency by 50 percent and existing building efficiency by 25 percent over the next decade to help us meet the 2030 goal.
              • Establish a Grant Program for Early Adopters: Obama will create a competitive grant program to award those states and localities that take the first steps to implement new building codes that prioritize energy efficiency.
              • Invest in a Digital Smart Grid: Obama will pursue a major investment in our utility grid to enable a tremendous increase in renewable generation and accommodate modern energy requirements, such as reliability, smart metering, and distributed storage

              Restore U.S. Leadership on Climate Change

              • Create New Forum of Largest Greenhouse Gas Emitters: Obama will create a Global Energy Forum — that includes all G-8 members plus Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa –the largest energy consuming nations from both the developed and developing world. The forum would focus exclusively on global energy and environmental issues.
              • Re-Engage with the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change: The UNFCCC process is the main international forum dedicated to addressing the climate problem and an Obama administration will work constructively within it.

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:01 pm ET)
                   
                Sorry for the odd bolding, it didn't look that way when I posted it ;)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:02 pm ET)
                     

                  Oh I read that alright.  So we're going to decrease our dependence in 18 years.  And seeing as how we can produce much oil on our own turf in 5 years....we ought to just live by the rest of the worlds reigns for an additional 13 years.

                  Sounds like a plan to me..

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:09 pm ET)
                       

                    That doesn't sound like anything...where'd you get the 5 years idea from?  It'd take 10 to even see a return on the investment of building the infrastructure to retrieve the oil we "should" be drilling for.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 3:10 pm ET)
                       
                    5 years, huh? Experts say 10 years, but you think it can be done in 5. Please enlighten us...
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
                         

                      False - experts have quoted a maximum of 8-10 years for areas where there is no close infrastructure.

                      Alaska, the Gulf, ND & MT, and Rocky Mtns have close infrastructure to tap into.  The further from existing infrastructure, the longer it will take.  That 10 year figure is if we drill 200 miles out, and not in line with any infrastructure.

                      In fact, several of the drilling companies have stated we can see results in as little as 2 years in ANWR, and expansion in the Gulf and off the Florida coast (50 mi out).

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:32 pm ET)
                           

                        "False - experts have quoted a maximum of 8-10 years for areas where there is no close infrastructure."

                        Okay, Dwight Schrute.  Don't you have a beet farm to tend to?  Maybe when you come back you'll find your keyboard encased in Jell-O. ;)

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:33 pm ET)
                             

                          ?

                           

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
                               

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiAdTBDEjr8&feature=related

                            It's from the office, and it was a joke.  I didn't think you'd get it.  Dwight is prone to saying "false" a lot.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:45 pm ET)
                                 
                              Ahh, never seen it.  Don't watch much television.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by ConstanceRifleII (June 24, 2008 3:54 pm ET)
                                   
                                Greatest show on TV today, you should check it out.  Or at least Youtube some clips
                                Report Abuse
                      • Author by jawill11 (June 24, 2008 8:08 pm ET)
                           

                        Please explain how drilling in those areas represents sound energy policy.  If we opened up all offshore areas and ANWR, we would see a reduction of 2.5 cent per gallon at the pump by 2025.  

                        Furthermore, if we raise our national fuel economy by a mere 2 mpg, it would save more oil than we have in any of those areas.  

                        I'll repeat what I said in another thread.  The whole spark of offshore drilling arguments is a cheap trick by the oil companies to try and secure leases in as  many areas as possible before republicans leave office.  They have no intention of starting drilling operations in those areas.  They are currently drilling in less than 25% of areas already leased.  You are being duped.  

                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by foghornleghorn (June 24, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
                       
                    Read Tom Friedman's column today. (Bush won't stop pushing oil to an addicted nation).   That's right.  Bush is now the Pusher in Chief.  And you are the addict eagerly accepting you latest toke on the oil pipe.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (June 24, 2008 4:17 pm ET)
                   
                Thanks, DBEDEN, for your thorough post. I wish MM would provide a way to print an individual's comment. And you know you are just giving "C" more room to wiggle. I appreciate your rebuttals, as do everyone else, but you realize nothing you say will change such a "mind". Keep it up, my friend.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                 

              let's look at McCain's energy policy:

              http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/fdeb03a7-30b0-4ece-8e34-4c7ea83f11d8.htm

              Well, I can't seem to find one! Guess it's not important enough for him to actually post it. Vs. Obama, who is courageous enough to do so. Yup, you got us there!

              Report Abuse
        • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 2:42 pm ET)
             
          If he doesn't have an energy policy, how can 76% disagree with it?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:50 pm ET)
               

            Quite simple - Obama is against an increase in domestic drilling, and against the gas tax (which I also am).  In recent polls (last several day) show that 66-80% of the american population favor increase drilling and about 60% favor a gas tax. 

            Draw your own correlation, or lack there of.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by BillJ-MN (June 24, 2008 2:52 pm ET)
                 
              So you're wrapping Obama's entire energy policy into a supposed opposition to increased domestic drilling.  As justifications go, that is approaching idiotic.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 2:54 pm ET)
                   

                No its not.  Its quite relevant.  We have the energy, we need to use it.  Not using it as an excuse for global warming, that may not even exist, is ridiculous.

                After all - it was obama who said that he's glad gas prices are at $4 a gallon, just wished they would have increases slower.  Now, go and tell that to the people who dont pay attention to the news or politics, and see what their reaction is...

                Report Abuse
                • Author by nerzog (June 24, 2008 2:56 pm ET)
                     
                  Yeah, and those same people probably aren't aware that the "drill here drill now" rhetoric is just an election year scharade. The oil companies are already sitting on offshore leases that they aren't using. Why give them more?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                       

                    They are sitting on leased land, that may are MAY NOT have oil beneath it.  That land has not been explored yet for oil, nor do they have idea where the oil would be (if at all) in that land.  Its all speculation on what may or may not exist.  Read up a bit before citing the common left wing rhetoric on that 68 mill acres.

                    Not to mention, that we have enough oil the rocky mtns through shale to supply us for the next 100 years alone.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
                         
                      Yes we do have oil shale that can supply us for 100 years, completely free from foreign oil imports. You forgot to mention that we have done little to develop extraction methodology though. Where's the GOP talking points on developing that? Nonexistant, that's where it is. Pointless point to make...
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:22 pm ET)
                           

                        Ahh, but not exactly true.  We already have experimental facilities out there doing it.  The problem with extracting the oil shale, is the environmental rejection from the greenies.

                        Is it feasible to extract shale oil?  Yes.  Is it possible to do under the ever increasing environmental restrictions?  Not yet.

                        http://www.ourpubliclands.org/colorado/oilshale

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 3:31 pm ET)
                             
                          Talking point #74, blame the environmentalists. You forgot to mention that you have to do open pit or strip mining to extract it. Not exactly the best approach to solving our energy crisis...
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:32 pm ET)
                               
                            Well, its quite simple really.  Take how the liberals and conservatives in congress complained not long ago that we have built a refinery in 30 years.  Did they also mention that the corporation would have to obtain over 1000 permits, most environmentally based?  No, I wouldn't assume the liberals to look in the mirror...they might not like what they see.
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                            • Author by Science101 (June 24, 2008 3:37 pm ET)
                                 
                              *havent built*...
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                            • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 3:41 pm ET)
                                 
                              Too funny. Having more refineries isn't the issue, it's the high number of blends the gas companies make. If we had a national standard we could reduce the number of blends and free up refineries capacity. Conservatives are responsible for pushing against that approach because they can't stand the thought of the federal government dictating to the states. They'd prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face...
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                • Author by BillJ-MN (June 24, 2008 3:45 pm ET)
                     
                  I was referring to your claim that 60+% of Americans disagree with Obama's energy policy, when that percentage applies (assuming it's accurate) to only one small piece.  That's simply dishonest.
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    • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 2:38 pm ET)
         

      Thank you Laura for the insightful message...

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    • Author by ollied2330 (June 24, 2008 2:49 pm ET)
         
      It appears to me that, many conservatives, and undeclared persons believe that anything shouted LONG AND LOUD ENOUGH should be believed. This has been their longstanding policy along with FEARAND INNUENDO. Unfortunately thise tactics have worked all to well on an american public that has a very short memory and become apathetic.
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    • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (June 24, 2008 4:05 pm ET)
         
      Looks like we got another one, folks. But your refutations are brilliant. Not that they will make any difference to Mr. "C". He is convinced the Repugnants are the saviors of the world and the protectors of , er, who, now? Too bad our Dems never mastered the art of shaky statistics and plain lying to capture the hearts and minds (?) of the people. The poor old Democrats are capable of using the same tricks, they just never got the hang of infiltrating the heartland of idiocy to capture and remain in power. Could it have something to do with a simpleminded morality? After all, having morals is a weakness in today's politics. We never had the advantage of a Rove or a Cheney to guide and promote our agenda. Our un-civil rights have been violated.
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    • Author by copiousdissent.blogspot.com (June 24, 2008 8:11 pm ET)
         

      Whomever made this post clearly does not understand the Tax Code and neither does Obama.  Unincorporated partnerships will be taxed at the highest tax rate.  If they are incorporated, they will also see their taxes rise.

       

      Whomever made this post has no idea what he or she is talking about and to suggest there was any misinformation about McCain simply demonstrates that whomever made this is just uninformed period.

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      • Author by snoopy (June 24, 2008 8:16 pm ET)
           

        Thank you, Mr. Know-it-all!

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        • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (June 25, 2008 1:03 am ET)
             

          I realize it's compliantconsent, the drive-by troll, and none of his posts ever have anything to do with the item, but I'm going to ask anyway, in case I'm missing it;

          Did the MMFA item say any of the things that Copeydis claims it was wrong about?Or did he just want to show off his newfound awareness of the word "whomever" ?

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          • Author by BillJ-MN (June 25, 2008 11:53 am ET)
               

            Or did he just want to show off his newfound awareness of the word "whomever" ?

            And, it might be added, he used it incorrectly.

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    • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (June 25, 2008 12:24 pm ET)
         
      WHY even argue with COLUMBUS ? We might as well argue with a brick wall. He is just another LIMBAUGH,HANNITY, OR LEVIN clone.
      Report Abuse

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