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Media quote GOP claim that Obama reversed Iraq policy, without noting Obama's prior statements

July 03, 2008 8:47 pm ET

SUMMARY: In covering Sen. Barack Obama's comments, "When I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies," the media have reported Republican claims that Obama reversed himself. In fact, Obama has said for months that he would set Iraq war policy in consultation with military commanders.

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At a July 3 press availability in Fargo, North Dakota, Sen. Barack Obama told reporters: "When I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies." In covering Obama's comments, the media have reported Republican claims that Obama reversed himself. For example, in a post on The New York Times blog, The Caucus, reporter Jeff Zeleny quoted Republican National Committee spokesman Alex Conant stating: "There appears to be no issue that Barack Obama is not willing to reverse himself on for the sake of political expedience. ... Obama's Iraq problem undermines the central premise of his candidacy and shows him to be a typical politician." Zeleny quoted Obama saying: "My position has not changed, but keep in mind what that original position was. I've always said that I would listen to commanders on the ground." But Zeleny did not note that Obama has in fact said on multiple occasions that he would set Iraq war policy in consultation with military commanders.

Here are some examples:

  • In a March 19 speech, Obama said: "Let me be clear: Ending this war is not going to be easy. There will be dangers involved -- just as there would be dangers involved with staying indefinitely. We will have to make tactical adjustments, listening to our commanders on the ground, to ensure that our interests in a stable Iraq are met, and to make sure that our troops are secure."
  • During a March 2 Washington Post foreign policy "Q&A," when asked what size his proposed "over-the-horizon" force in Iraq would be, Obama responded: "The precise size of the residual force will depend on consultations with our military commanders and will depend on the circumstances on the ground, including the willingness of the Iraqi government to move toward political accommodation."
  • During an interview on the February 5 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, when asked, "[I]s there anything that would change your position about pulling out troops ... if he [Gen. David Petraeus] convinces you that we're on the right track?" Obama began his response by saying, "Well, what I've been very clear about is that I will always listen to commanders on the ground":

BRIAN KILMEADE (co-host): Right behind you is the word "change." When General Petraeus comes back in a month, if he talks to Barack Obama privately and shows you what we're doing over there, is there anything that would change your position about pulling out troops if he's convinced -- if he convinces you that we're on the right track?

OBAMA: Well, what I've been very clear about is that I will always listen to commanders on the ground, but ultimately the commander in chief sets the mission. And my strong belief is that we have to send a signal to the Iraqis that we are not going to be in Iraq permanently. I mean, I have a fundamental disagreement with John McCain on this.

  • Obama also said during an interview on the February 4 edition of CBS' The Early Show that he would "consult with commanders":

HARRY SMITH (co-host): If you were to be elected president --

OBAMA: Mm-hmm.

SMITH: -- and your commanders on the ground there and your secretary of defense said, "Hold back" --

OBAMA: Right.

SMITH: -- "you can't be pulling these people out. We're going to create a civil war and a blood bath." What would you do?

OBAMA: My job as commander in chief is to keep the American people safe. But I firmly believe that we have to send a signal to the Iraqis that it is time to withdraw. We will not have a permanent base there. We will not have a permanent occupation there.

SMITH: Even if it --

OBAMA: Within those constraints --

SMITH: Even if it meant the beginning of civil war?

OBAMA: No, no, no, no. Within those constraints, I think there is going to be some flexibility and, obviously, I would consult with commanders. We have to be mindful of the situation on the ground and what the commanders say. Having said that, what we can't do is simply say we are going to leave it open-ended, the way John McCain, for example, suggested. We might be there 50 years or 100 years. That is not going to make the American people safe over the long term, not only because of the loss of life, not only because of the anti-American sentiment that it fans and the constraints it places on our diplomacy, but also because we can't afford it. It's costing us $9 billion per month.

  • During a November 1, 2007, New York Times interview, Obama was asked: "You've argued that the United States should leave behind residual force in Iraq and the region. How large would the force be and how much would be inside Iraq versus the Persian Gulf Region?" Obama replied:

I have not ascribed particular numbers to that and I won't for precisely the reason I was just talking to Michael about. I want to talk to military folks on the ground, No. 1. No. 2, a lot of it depends on what's happened on the political front and the diplomatic front. Even something as simple as protecting our embassy is going to be dependent on what is the security environment in Baghdad. If there is some sense of security, then that means one level of force. If you continue to have significant sectarian conflict, that means another, but this is an area where Senator [Hillary] Clinton and I do have a significant contrast.

  • During the September 12, 2007, broadcast of National Public Radio's All Things Considered, Obama said: "If commanders came to me and said, 'We are making progress in reducing violence,' and I see continuing political progress taking place, then obviously that's going to be weighed against the need to, I believe, have some additional troops in Afghanistan." From the interview:

MICHELE NORRIS (host): So, in trying to determine what the U.S. footprint in Iraq would look like -- say you're in office, and your commanders, your military commanders, are telling you that progress is being made. If they're saying, "We can win this," are you still going to draw down forces? As a commander in chief, who does not have personal military experience, are you willing to look someone like David Petraeus in the eye and say, "You're wrong. We're going to do it my way"?

OBAMA: If commanders came to me and said, "We are making progress in reducing violence," and I see continuing political progress taking place, then obviously that's going to be weighed against the need to, I believe, have some additional troops in Afghanistan. That's going to be weighed against our homeland security needs in the United States. I think that the overarching question is: What is going to be needed to make the United States more secure, meet our strategic interests around the world, and make sure that we are meeting the obligations that we have towards the Iraqi people?

But that is all part of a decision that the president makes in consultation with his generals, but not in deference to them. And I think one of the unfortunate aspects of the last several days and General Petraeus' testimony is the illusion that, somehow, General Petraeus has been setting policy and the president has simply been accepting those recommendations. That is not what has been taking place. The president has been laying out a mission of continuing this failed course in Iraq and General Petraeus and Ambassador [Ryan] Crocker have been trying to carry out that mission as best they could.

TPM Media's Greg Sargent wrote in a July 3 TPM Election Central entry, "[T]he big news orgs are already getting this wrong":

Here's the Associated Press headline and lede:

Obama opens door to altering his Iraq policy

Democrat Barack Obama opened the door Thursday to altering his plan to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq in 16 months based on what he hears from military commanders during his upcoming trip there.

That's a reckless distortion. "Alter" is a far stronger word than "refine" is. And worse, when you take the stronger word "alter" and put it next to "plan to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq in 16 months," it makes a far, far stronger suggestion than Obama did. Obama merely said he would "continue to refine his policies." The tone of this lede makes it sound like Obama is preparing a wholesale junking of his withdrawal plan.

Here's The Washington Post's headline:

Obama Softens on Iraq Withdrawal Timeline

This is way overstated. It states as outright fact that Obama signaled that he'd backtrack on the time-line. But that didn't happen at all. The Los Angeles Times used this formulation, too, but it at least had the decency to pose it as a question, and not state this as established fact.

From Zeleny's July 3 blog post on The Caucus:

Senator Barack Obama said Thursday the United States cannot sustain a long-term military presence in Iraq, but added that he would be open to "refine my policies" about a timeline for withdrawing troops after meeting with American military commanders during a trip to Iraq later this month.

Mr. Obama, whose popularity in the Democratic primary was built upon a sharp opposition to the war and an often-touted 16-month gradual timetable for removing combat troops, dismissed suggestions that he was changing positions in the wake of reductions in violence in Iraq and a general election fight with Senator John McCain.

"I've always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed," he said. "And when I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies."

[...]

Republicans seized on Mr. Obama's remarks, saying he was stepping away from the position he took in the Democratic primary campaign.

"There appears to be no issue that Barack Obama is not willing to reverse himself on for the sake of political expedience," said Alex Conant, a spokesman for the Republican National Committee. "Obama's Iraq problem undermines the central premise of his candidacy and shows him to be a typical politician."

Mr. Obama said such criticism was misguided, saying: "My position has not changed, but keep in mind what that original position was. I've always said that I would listen to commanders on the ground."

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    • Author by oscar the grouch (July 03, 2008 8:50 pm ET)
         
      "I'll have them all home in 16 months (barring input from the people on the ground that might negate that).
      Report Abuse
      • Author by wolf kotenberg (July 03, 2008 9:54 pm ET)
           
        I know Mr Bush has info that Mr Obama is not privy to, and quite possibly will not be given, at this stage of the game. We just don't know . the next president will have the backing of the majority of the citizen's and that is power greater than any military action.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 6:46 am ET)
           
        Not just yet.  He still maintains the sixteen month withdrawal plan for combat troops.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Dem02020 (July 03, 2008 9:51 pm ET)
         

       

      Just because it was lies and greed that led to the invasion and occupation of IRAQ, doesn't mean the consequences of withdrawing quickly, or the consequences of withdrawing according to a timetable that ignores any unforseen events that might occur during the timetable... the consequences are real and true, despite the cause of the invasion being fiction and a lie. 

      The important thing is get the Command and management of the occupation of IRAQ out of the criminal hands of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, and to also keep it out the hands of their dangerous (and more ignorant) co-conspirator John McCain.

      I'd be more than happy to defer all decisions and actions in the management of the occupation of IRAQ, to someone like General Wesley Clark, who not only knows everything there is to know about this mission (it being primarily the mission the U.S. Army, with the U.S. Marine Corps), but also he has opposed the invasion from the start.

      I would say I didn't really need to see the plans for the house, if I trusted the architect.

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by philib (July 04, 2008 10:21 am ET)
           

        "the consequences are real and true, despite the cause of the invasion being fiction and a lie."

        http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm  

        "Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions, the vast majority of them Muslims. According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings, and electric shocks ... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

        Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered. Allegations of prostitution are used to intimidate opponents of the regime and have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women. There have been documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulting in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths."

         

           The "cause of the invasion" sure is a lie to those "many hundreds of thousands" people who were murdered by Saddam. Who's using lies to forward their agenda now?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (July 04, 2008 12:07 pm ET)
             

          You are.  It's called 'disingenuous'.

           

          Unless you are suggesting we invade Darfur?? 

          Report Abuse
        • Author by DeminTX (July 04, 2008 12:26 pm ET)
             

          It wasn't the reason given.  Plain and simply we were lied to.  If it is the reason now then we should be "invading" the Darfur region, Zimbagwe and many other nations where citizens are being slaughtered.  Take your strawman somewhere else.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by philib (July 04, 2008 12:56 pm ET)
               

               Man murders thousands, that isn't enough reason. Same man wears a blue baseball hat, so the government invents lies to arrest the man for illegally wearing a blue baseball hat.

               Yes, you got me. The reason we went in was an invented lie, but the end result is he stopped murdering thousands of innocent people. Don't you hate it when an invented lie actually produces the result that needed to be done? Well, you liberals sure hate that.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by jawill11 (July 04, 2008 1:38 pm ET)
                 

              Why is it that the war cheerleaders are so up in arms over the thousands of people killed by Saddam decades ago, but are so quick to ignore or outright belittle the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced because of our ill-planned and bungled invasion and occupation?  Also, why are the thousands killed by Saddam SOOO much worse than all those killed under other regimes that we have not invaded?  

              Of course the answer is that we have used diplomacy and the strength of the world community in other instances, but in this case, Cheney had to get those oil deals wrapped up for his buddies.  The truth hurts, but denial hurts so much worse in he long run.   

              Report Abuse
              • Author by philib (July 04, 2008 7:01 pm ET)
                   

                "but are so quick to ignore or outright belittle the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced because of our ill-planned and bungled invasion and occupation?"

                   Let's not mention the terrorists who actually DOING the killing and displacing. You know...the ones we are trying to eliminate. Perhaps if Saddam hadn't have had ties with these people they wouldn't have been such a massive foe. But, apparently, they were already in Iraq and were ready to fight after we ousted Saddam.

                "Also, why are the thousands killed by Saddam SOOO much worse than all those killed under other regimes that we have not invaded?"

                   I can't answer why Carter (D), Reagan (R), Bush (R), Clinton (D) didn't fight evil empires. Wait, Reagan and the Bush's did, but so many liberals whined about their attempts. So, we have 2 dem admins that did nothing and all 3 repub admins who tried to do something, but each time the liberals whined about how 'war is evil'. So, do you want to ask that question again? Or will you be satisfied with the fact that the dems were the one "not" invading while the repubs were the ones who were invading.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 8:18 pm ET)
                     

                    Let's not mention the terrorists who actually DOING the killing and displacing.

                  Bush facilitated all of this with his assinine decision to invade.  He is responsible for all the death and destruction taking place in Iraq.

                  So, do you want to ask that question again? Or will you be satisfied with the fact that the dems were the one "not" invading while the repubs were the ones who were invading.

                  Of course.  Who knows how many Americans would be dead if those two Dem presidents had decided to invade somewhere or if Reagan decided to invade the Soviet Union or Bush 41 decided to go to Baghdad.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by philib (July 05, 2008 12:02 am ET)
                       

                    "Bush facilitated all of this with his assinine decision to invade.  He is responsible for all the death and destruction taking place in Iraq."

                       Wow, that's what you think? OBL had nothing to do with it? Who exactly do you think is the head of al queda? Or are you one of the many deniers who claim al queda has no real power? Yeah, that's it. That's the only way you can correlate your "idea" that Bush is responsible for the death and destruction in Iraq.

                       That's why the country would be totally lost with a liberal as president, such as O'bama. He can't even think straight when he has little sleep; http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-obama-gaffes-including-kids.html   That guy is a total moron, and you want him controlling "the button"? If you think Bush is an idiot, wait till you see O'bama in action. So much for being a great orator.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by open_mind (July 05, 2008 12:40 am ET)
                         

                      It is pretty funny to watch you - who still seems to think we invaded Iraq because of Al Qaeda - claim that Obama is a moron.  You are the single dumbest poster I have ever witnessed...and that is saying a lot.

                      I am sure YOU would have been editor of the Law Journal at Harvard if it wasn't for that dang affirmative action keeping you out and Obama in.  Or maybe YOU would be somebody instead of just another pesky internet twirp Holden Caulfield wannabe posting from his mother's basement.

                      Why don't you actually achieve something in your life before you go claiming someone who is painfully obviously better than you - is a "moron".

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by philib (July 05, 2008 9:28 am ET)
                           

                        "It is pretty funny to watch you - who still seems to think we invaded Iraq because of Al Qaeda - claim that Obama is a moron."

                           But, I never made that claim. But, it's understandable that you can't read.

                        "You are the single dumbest poster I have ever witnessed...and that is saying a lot."

                            This "single dumbest poster" sure has YOU frustrated! You can't even make an arguement without using solon-like name calling. You must be very proud of the way you keep your cool while argueing against a poster with a child-like mind! Maybe the points I bring up are too frustrating for you to comprehend. Like, I hated to have to mention that we are fighting terrorists during this war on terror. You think we are still looking for WMD's. Is it possible you don't remember the WTC was destroyed before we entered Afghanistan or Iraq. So was the USS Cole and other targets of OBL.

                           Want to see me do a liberal trick?? I can make your hand dissapear! Hold your hand in front of your face, now open your eyes ... Can't see your hand, can you?!? Isn't that amazing? But it only works with liberals, everyone else can see the hand in front of their face. Wait, the trick gets better, the liberal will DENY that he ever had a hand to begin with, thus saying I lied when saying I made it dissapear.

                         

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by open_mind (July 05, 2008 10:25 am ET)
                             

                          I am not going to stretch this out.  You are simply too stupid to deal with.  The only thing that is frustrating about you is that you only burp/fart out idiotic talking points, cliches and generalizations about liberals instead of real and thoughtful dialogue.  I stand by my assessment of you.  One only needs to look at your previous posts to see that you indeed did make such remarks.  It is pretty funny as well to see you complain of namecalling after calling Obama a moron.

                          If you want a reasonable argument from me, you will first have to present one yourself as many other conservatives have been able to do in the past here.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Cheney2012 (July 05, 2008 9:09 pm ET)
                               

                            It's really tiresome to see liberals refuse to engage people claiming they are dumb or 'making a stupid argument'

                            Stand up and fight!

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 12:06 am ET)
                                 
                              Still waiting for an intelligent argument from one of you two.  That would be a refreshing change of pace.
                              Report Abuse
                          • Author by Cheney2012 (July 05, 2008 9:13 pm ET)
                               

                            Phil:

                            The problem is this:  The liberal argument essentially is that it's not worth defending this country because this country is evil. That's why they refuse to engage anybody who presents a valid justification for the Iraq War. 

                            And YES...St. Barack is trying to have it both ways on Iraq as he does with every issue.  Get ready libs, if elected your hero will have U.S. troops in Iraq for many years to come.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by philib (July 05, 2008 10:27 pm ET)
                                 

                              "That's why they refuse to engage anybody who presents a valid justification for the Iraq War."

                                 That's just one reason. Another is because they fear confrontation. They fear humiliation. Those are other reasons you won't find liberals having honest discussions with anyone accept themselves. They discuss better when they know they're all going to agree with themselves.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by princeofwheels (July 05, 2008 11:07 pm ET)
                                   
                                NOLEFTURNS/PHILIB, When did you discover this justification for the war? Before we invaded Iraq or after the WMD's, remember those. were not found. Just trying to determine whether it is worth time to discuss this any further. Just a simple question requiring a simple answer.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:16 am ET)
                                     

                                  It was BEFORE when we had evidence of WMD and during when eveidence was found..and lo and behold AP just moved a story tongiht about that.  Once again you liberals are exposed as liars and willing to ignore plenty of WMD evidence:

                                  http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jul/05/ap-exclusive-us-removes-uranium-from-iraq/

                                  From the Associated Press: "The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program _ a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium _ reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

                                  The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" _ the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment _ was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions."

                                   

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 1:37 am ET)
                                       

                                    Do you really think that the article you continue to link proves any kind of point for you?  Did you even read it?  

                                    I'll save everyone else the trouble.  It clearly states that the yellowcake in question has been know about by the international community and was safeguarded by the IAEA since before the 1991 Gulf War.  

                                    Are you really this monumentally stupid or are you trying to delude yourself because you can't come to grips with the fact that your heroes have destroyed so much of what our country stands for and have committed horrible acts in your name?   

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:01 am ET)
                                         

                                      QUESTION

                                      "Are you really this monumentally stupid or are you trying to delude yourself because you can't come to grips with the fact that your heroes have destroyed so much of what our country stands for and have committed horrible acts in your name?"--jawill

                                      ANSWER:

                                      A little from column A and a little from column B.

                                      This mindreading stuff is fun.  I hope the cons don't mind me borrowing it for a little while.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 9:45 am ET)
                                           

                                        "This mindreading stuff is fun.  I hope the cons don't mind me borrowing it for a little while."

                                           Not at all. You libs use it all the time while calling Bush a "liar" for reasons to go into Iraq. I hope the libs don't mind when cons use your copyrighted technique.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:37 pm ET)
                                             
                                          Personally I give President Bush the benefit of the doubt.  It seems to me that incompetence is more likely the reason Bush's statements were untrue.
                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 5:57 pm ET)
                                             
                                          Secondly, I don't think you have to be a mindreader to make the case that President Bush was lying.  It is possible to establish a reasonable pattern of misleading statements and deception perpetrated by the Whitehouse.  I agree with almost all of that idea, but I don't believe President Bush was cognizant it was going on.  Some other person or group was aware of it.  They had to be at some level. 
                                          Report Abuse
                                      • Author by princeofwheels (July 06, 2008 2:55 pm ET)
                                           
                                        I'll go with C....nothing better to do or D...total ignorance..Philib, still waiting for a simple answer.
                                        Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 8:28 pm ET)
                                         
                                      Exactly. So it's about time we went in and got it out of there.  Who was running the White House from 1993 on.  Uh..that would be a Democrat
                                      Report Abuse
                              • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 12:18 am ET)
                                   
                                More silly generalizations from a bed-wetter.
                                Report Abuse
                            • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 12:04 am ET)
                                 
                              Hahaha! I must have missed that "valid justification for war" part, Mr. Sockpuppet.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:19 am ET)
                                   

                                Sept 11, 2001 was justification enough. But you choose to ignore that because the was "America's Fault"  or because you hate Bush and conservatives. 

                                Obama could invade a country to find the Holy Grail and you'd have no problem.  Liberals are hypocrites and intellectually VACANT

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 1:29 am ET)
                                     

                                  You and phil are going to jerk each other off about liberals on this site not having valid arguments and not engaging in intellectual debate and you are going to claim, like Phil, that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11?  What a joke you are.

                                  Like I told Phil, if you are going to willingly allow yourself to be duped by criminals who started this war, stole billions from our coffers, allowed millions of people to be killed, wounded, or displaced, and continue to bungle the occupation, then you are complicit in their criminal behavior and are betraying everything that our country stands for.   

                                  We were given 25 different reasons for this war, none of which were true.  It was started with no plan for occupation.  We made horrendously stupid decisions like disbanding the Iraqi army, not securing weapons depots, not allowing baathists to participate in the new government, not stopping ethnic cleansing, putting Maliki, the greatest ally to Iran, in charge, allowing tens of billions of dollars to be stolen, outsourcing work that could have been done by Iraqis, Forcing the new gov't to accept no bid deals to open up oil fields to US companies.  Shall I go on?   

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 8:39 pm ET)
                                       

                                    No need to go on.  You have already listed many excuses for NOT DEFENDING this country.  You are a good liberal. 

                                    All I need is this: We were told after 9/11 that fighting terrorism would not be easy and would not look like any other war in history.  We have taken pre-emptive action against a rogue nation.  We taken plenty of other measures on the homefront to protect.  All of these are perfectly reasonabe in light on Sept. 11, 2001.  To claim it is an illegal war and criminals led us into it is ridiculous.  One big problem with this war is that until the surge we didn't really fight it.  We waged it to not offend people, be they muslims or the peacenik leftists here in America.  Had we fought from the start you might see a much different Iraq today.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 8:50 pm ET)
                                         

                                      So we were holding back against terrorists because someone objected?  Who exactly would that be, and why would we care?

                                      Or are you talking about indiscriminate killing? 

                                      Report Abuse
                                • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 2:00 am ET)
                                     

                                  Do you really think 9/11 gave us a blank check to just invade anyone for any reason - no matter how thin or non-existent?  I agree that the Administration probaby thought that at the time (although they have vehemently denied it), but I was hoping you guys would realize how foolish that was by now.  I guess some people never learn.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:12 pm ET)
                                       

                                    "Do you really think 9/11 gave us a blank check to just invade anyone for any reason - no matter how thin or non-existent?"

                                       Pearl Harbor gave us a "blank check" reason to attack Germany and Italy for "any reason". When did those countries attack the US?

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:19 pm ET)
                                         

                                      You're talking about countries fighting as allies.  In that case, an attack from one of those countries justifies a declaration of war against all of them, since they are all working towards the same ends.

                                      Feel free to explain how that's comparable to the acts of a terrorist organization. 

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:35 pm ET)
                                           

                                        "In that case, an attack from one of those countries justifies a declaration of war against all of them, since they are all working towards the same ends."

                                           Al queda declared war against the US in the 90's. They attacked the US several times afterward. We attacked al queda after their last major assault on Americans. We are still fighting al queda in several parts of the world. I see no difference between your justification of the US attacking Germany after Japan attacked America and the US attacking al queda after al queda attacking America. We fought in Germany AND the Pacific Ocean in response to Japan attacking the US. We are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq in response to al queda attacking the US.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:38 pm ET)
                                             

                                          We are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq in response to al queda attacking the US.

                                          No.  We're in Iraq for oil.

                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:41 pm ET)
                                             
                                          You would have to show an "alliance" with Iraq in order to justify your rationale.  In WWII the alliance was explicit, here it is shaky at best.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:45 pm ET)
                                               

                                            "You would have to show an "alliance" with Iraq in order to justify your rationale."

                                               No, I would not. Al queda attacking US troops in Iraq is enough reason to fight back against the troops fighting us.

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:47 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              So terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq is justification for sending our troops into Iraq in the first place?

                                              Interesting concept of linear time you have going there. 

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:56 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                "So terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq is justification for sending our troops into Iraq in the first place?"

                                                   But, that isn't the reason we went in, and you know it. That's disingenuous for you to imply we went into Iraq only to fight al queda. Of the many so called "lies" that were used to go into Iraq, that was not one of them. Are you inventing another lie to use?

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:59 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  What are you babbling about?  I responded to what you said, I didn't say it was the only reason given.
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 1:11 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                       YOU said it was one of the reasons. Which it was not. Find proof of that being one of the reasons or you are the one "babbling".
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 1:21 pm ET)
                                                         

                                                      "Al queda attacking US troops in Iraq is enough reason to fight back against the troops fighting us."

                                                      This is what I was addressing.  You seem to be completely lost.

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 6:18 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        "So terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq is justification for sending our troops into Iraq in the first place?"

                                                           Whatever you were "addressing", that is what you said.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 6:34 pm ET)
                                                             

                                                          Yes, you were saying it was a justification for invasion.  I addressed what you said.

                                                          Have you caught up with the conversation now? 

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 7:00 pm ET)
                                                               

                                                            "Al queda attacking US troops in Iraq is enough reason to fight back against the troops fighting us."      Is what "I" said.

                                                            "So terrorists attacking our troops in Iraq is justification for sending our troops into Iraq in the first place?"   Is what "YOU" said.

                                                            "Yes, you were saying it was a justification for invasion.  I addressed what you said."          Is what "YOU" said.

                                                               PLEASE explain WHERE I said "invasion".  Are YOU caught up with the conversation, now? 

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 7:27 pm ET)
                                                                 

                                                              No. This conversation originally started with the question from me: "Do you really think 9/11 gave us a blank check to just invade anyone for any reason - no matter how thin or non-existent?"

                                                              That was the context to which all of us were speaking and to which we read your remarks (assuming you were on the same page).  You inexplicably started talking about Al Qaeda in Iraq.  Maybe you were moving the goalposts in your mind, but to the rest of us, your remarks did not make any sense at all as Brab pointed out.

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 8:19 pm ET)
                                                                 

                                                              You were talking about how we were able to attack Germany when Japan attacked us.  I said you had to show an alliance between Al Qaeda and Iraq.  You said you didn't, that our troops being attacked was justification enough.

                                                              That's justification for us to attack Iraq, according to you.  Read through the whole thing again. 

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 6:14 pm ET)
                                                         
                                                      You really need to start keeping track of your own arguments.
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:59 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  Are you purposefully acting stupid?
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:39 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    Philib just keeps giving evidence to support my earlier observation of him.  There is enough material here to give Philib a lifetime achievement award for stupidity.
                                                    Report Abuse
                                            • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:47 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              No, I would not. Al queda attacking US troops in Iraq is enough reason to fight back against the troops fighting us.

                                              The bigger problem is with the millions of Iraqis who don't want us in their country.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:54 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                "The bigger problem is with the millions of Iraqis who don't want us in their country."

                                                   Then they should start helping rid their country of al queda and we will leave. Plain and simple. That has been said and stressed over and over again concerning our stay there.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:56 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  Then they should start helping rid their country of al queda and we will leave. Plain and simple. That has been said and stressed over and over again concerning our stay there.

                                                  No.  We should get out of their country.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                        • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 6:12 pm ET)
                                             

                                          "Al queda declared war against the US in the 90's. They attacked the US several times afterward. We attacked al queda after their last major assault on Americans. We are still fighting al queda in several parts of the world. I see no difference between your justification of the US attacking Germany after Japan attacked America and the US attacking al queda after al queda attacking America."--philib

                                          I can think of some pretty huge differences.  The most obvious would be that Al Qaeda is not directly associated or allied with any specific existing government.  They are an international criminal organization. The governments under which Al Qaeda now operates are officially hostile to them.

                                          There is no evidence at all that Iraq was allied with Al Qaeda in any way analogous to the way Japan, Italy and Germany were allied via their governments.  In fact, that would be impossible as Al Qaeda is not a governmental organization.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by mary59 (July 06, 2008 7:27 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Sadam's baathist regime was Sunni and secular; Al Quaeda is Shia and religious fundamentalist.  They were antagonistic to each other.  Only people who are willfully ignorant don't know this by now.  The only reason there are so-called Al Queda terrorists in Iraq now (many from Saudi Arabia) is that the invasion and occupation gave them the opportunity to come in.
                                            Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 8:42 pm ET)
                                       

                                    EVERYBODY signed off on the intelligence prior to the war authorization vote.  There was plenty of justification.

                                    Many on the hard left did not even want to go into Afghanistan and about a week into that invasion the left and their cheerleaders in the media were denigrating that operation as a "quagmire" and other such nonesense.

                                    So my question to you and other liberals is:  When is the use of military force appropriate?  In fact, is it EVER appropriate?

                                    Report Abuse
                            • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 12:17 am ET)
                                 

                              "The liberal argument essentially is that it's not worth defending this country because this country is evil."--noleftturns

                              That must be that intelligent debate we have all been waiting for.  Amazing mindreading and generalizing about liberals.  Wow, that is impressive, guys.  Maybe I should give it a try:

                              The conservative argument essentially is that our current Constitution and system of laws is simply too quaint, outdated and frail for fighting an enemy like Al-Qaeda, therefore we must become as barbaric and uncivilized as our opponents until the difference between us and them is utterly indistinguishable.  The good news is that we will "win", the bad news (that conservatives either haven't thought of or won't tell you) is that we will essentially become them - so what was the point in the first place?

                              Conservatives essentially want the same kind of fundamentalist fascist government Al-Qaeda does, but I predict they will deny it, of course.

                              Hey, this is kind of fun!  I never knew arguing in stereotypes and generalities would be so easy.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:23 am ET)
                                   

                                Exactly what violaitons of the Constitution have taken place regarding Iraq?  The President is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and the Iraq war was approved by an overwhelming vote in Congress.  More proof the Liberal has no argument here except: "We hate Bush"   They love al-Qaeda because it has taken on the "Great Satan"

                                It is indeed the liberals that seek to always change the meaning of the constitution and thereby invent violations that don't exist

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 2:19 am ET)
                                     

                                  Have you ever heard of the right to counsel, Habeas Corpus or due process?  Do you agree with the Bush Administration that American citizens can be denied these basic rights in the name of fighting terrorism?

                                  How about torture?  Do you take the Administration's view that it is okay, too?

                                  How about spying on Americans without a warrant?

                                  How about using the Patriot Act to go after prostitution rings - when it was originally denied they would use it outside of terrorism?

                                  If you are for these things, then I think that shows who supports the Constitution and our system of laws and who doesn't pretty clearly.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 9:54 am ET)
                                       

                                    "Do you agree with the Bush Administration that American citizens can be denied these basic rights in the name of fighting terrorism?"

                                        When the reason is to determin cause and prevent terroristic acts against American citizens, yes.

                                    "How about torture?  Do you take the Administration's view that it is okay, too?"

                                       When it's done humanely to prevent terroristic acts against American lives, yes

                                    "How about spying on Americans without a warrant?"

                                       Yes, it happened before the Patriot Act with no real complaints. Do you have a reason to fear it?

                                    "How about using the Patriot Act to go after prostitution rings - when it was originally denied they would use it outside of terrorism?"

                                       Yes. Drug rings also. Anything that makes our children safer for everyday life should be ok with any patriot. You don't like rules against prostitution? You don't like rules against illegal drug use? Would you prefer prostitution rings and drug peddlers to profit from illegal activity?

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by doggone-ga (July 06, 2008 10:12 am ET)
                                         

                                      "When it's done humanely "

                                      I love it!  The CONS just invneted a new term: "HUMANE torture!" 

                                      Can't get any better than that one...give up any efforts to even TRY.

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 11:27 am ET)
                                         

                                      When the reason is to determin cause and prevent terroristic acts against American citizens, yes.

                                      There's a couple of problems with this:  it's anti-American and we don't trustworthy administration in place.

                                      Yes, it happened before the Patriot Act with no real complaints. Do you have a reason to fear it?

                                      It violates the Constitution and is therefore, anti-American.  If you want to live in a society where your fundamental protections are violated by the government, you should move to China, Zimbabwe or someplace in the Middle East

                                      Yes. Drug rings also. Anything that makes our children safer for everyday life should be ok with any patriot.  You don't like rules against illegal drug use? Would you prefer prostitution rings and drug peddlers to profit from illegal activity?

                                      I'm all for making drugs and prostitution legal.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:18 pm ET)
                                           
                                        "It violates the Constitution and is therefore, anti-American."

                                           Private ownership of gun laws are un-Constitutional. Are the Mayors of Chicago, San Fransisco and Wash DC anti-American? Should we ship them to China?

                                        "I'm all for making drugs and prostitution legal."

                                           That one does NOT surprise me in the least. Harming children would be a great thing for you, huh?

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:25 pm ET)
                                             
                                          Legalization isn't approval.  It's about how to address the problem.  Making something illegal doesn't end it, look up "prohibition" for a prime example.  If alcoholism is a concern for someone, treat it as a health issue, not a legal issue.  The same concept applies to drugs and prostitution.  By making those things legal we could address health concerns with regulation and intervention, where people wouldn't have to be worried about being thrown in jail for trying to get help.
                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:34 pm ET)
                                             

                                            Private ownership of gun laws are un-Constitutional. Are the Mayors of Chicago, San Fransisco and Wash DC anti-American? Should we ship them to China?

                                          They're not unconstitutional.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:36 pm ET)
                                               
                                               The US Supreme Court says they ARE.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:39 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              Supreme Court is wrong in this case.  Go read the second amendment yourself.
                                              Report Abuse
                                            • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:45 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Nice way to change the subject.  I have no problem with the Supreme Court ruling on the DC case.

                                              Report Abuse
                                        • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:35 pm ET)
                                             

                                          That one does NOT surprise me in the least. Harming children would be a great thing for you, huh?

                                          How does this harm children?

                                          Report Abuse
                                    • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
                                         
                                      Thank you for demonstrating your utter contempt for the Constitution and our rule of law.
                                      Report Abuse
                              • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:31 am ET)
                                   

                                Here's my argument for the Iraq War and the valid justification.  Continue to ignore reality as you seek your Socialist Utopia

                                http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jul/05/ap-exclusive-us-removes-uranium-from-iraq/

                                From the Associated Press: "The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program _ a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium _ reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

                                The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" _ the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment _ was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions."

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 2:27 am ET)
                                     

                                  Everybody knows about Tuwaitha.  It was under IAEA control until the invasion.  What is your point?

                                   

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 12:26 pm ET)
                                       

                                    "Everybody knows about Tuwaitha.  It was under IAEA control until the invasion."

                                       That is a complete lie. Iraqi military guarded the complex until the invasion. And, if everyone "knew" about Tuwaitha, then why are you claiming there were NO WMD's present in Iraq when we invaded? 2 lies in 2 sentences. Keep going, you're on a roll. Do we need to re-experience my 'hand in front of your face' liberal joke?

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:38 pm ET)
                                         

                                      "Following the 1991 Gulf War, the International Atomic Energy Agency removed all known Iraqi stocks of highly enriched uranium and plutonium, in accordance with the provisions of UN Security Council Resolution 687. As of 2002 the only positively confirmed nuclear material left in Iraq is 1.8 tons of low-enriched uranium and several tons of natural and depleted uranium. The material is in a locked storage site at the Tuwaitha nuclear research facility near Baghdad. Under the terms of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, this stock of material is checked once a year by an IAEA team. The most recent check was in January 2002, and none of the material had been tampered with at that time."

                                      Is that inaccurate?  If not, then it would have been under IAEA control.

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:42 pm ET)
                                         

                                      That is a complete lie. Iraqi military guarded the complex until the invasion. And, if everyone "knew" about Tuwaitha, then why are you claiming there were NO WMD's present in Iraq when we invaded?

                                      Uranium by itself is not a WMD.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by philib (July 06, 2008 1:00 pm ET)
                                           
                                           Neither are guided missiles without something to guide them.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by princeofwheels (July 06, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Phillib, you are by far the best poster this website has ever had. For anyone to argue with you would be futile. Therefore, why are you here? I cannot see where anyone who tries to combat your explicit, well-defined arguments has any chance of being correct. Your intelligence level is unique and can only be described as "beyond blissful".

                                          For example, the previously guarded "yellowcake" is a WMD...how can anyone here argue that point? To hell with the well-known facts create by the librul media and the rest of the world. It is impossible to deflect your incredible knowledge on that subject alone. I think that before long, these frustrated libruls will refuse to debate with you. They will resort to name calling like, misguided, ignorant, childlike, stupid, moronic, troll, dummy and mommy basement dweller with a keyboard. That is the only way to combat the intelligence you display. You have won the battle. Congrats to you sir/madame..your surge has defeated the enemy.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by mary59 (July 06, 2008 7:37 pm ET)
                                               

                                            His surge of misinformation and illogical conclusions have created an escalation of forehead slapping and a welling up of incredulity at his weapon cache of eroneus beliefs.

                                            The credo of the true dittohead believer:  To look out upon the astounding universe with rigid unyielding unblinking dogmatic parroting; to fear every fact and to be willing at every opportunity to never rethink or admit error.

                                            Report Abuse
                                    • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:49 pm ET)
                                         

                                      There were WMD's at Tuwaitha?  Hmmm...Now THAT would be news.  Got any evidence of that, sport?  Or any other claims you have made?

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 6:35 pm ET)
                                         

                                      "why are you claiming there were NO WMD's present in Iraq when we invaded?"--philib

                                      Strawman.  Where did I make that claim?  Of course, the articles about Tuwaitha are not about "WMD's", they are about low-grade fissionable material - if you ask a reasonably intelligent child, they might be able to explain the difference to you. 

                                      I would not say there are "no WMD's in Iraq".  I would say there are no significant and/or usable quantities of WMD's in Iraq.  David Kaye mentioned that some WMD's were found, but they weren't any more dangerous than what you would find under a typical kitchen sink.

                                      Report Abuse
                        • Author by loonz (July 05, 2008 10:36 am ET)
                             

                          This "single dumbest poster" sure has YOU frustrated! You can't even make an arguement without using solon-like name calling.

                          Well, if the shoe fits...

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by worrierking (July 05, 2008 8:58 pm ET)
                               
                            Open Mind and Loonz, you've both got Philib pegged. Too bad you couldn't get him to discuss his "2 Rocks Theory" on the origins of the universe. It's priceless.

                            He reminds me of an old fundi-xtian poster we used to have who had an uncanny ability to divine car problems by using only his mind.
                            Report Abuse
                        • Author by Cheney2012 (July 05, 2008 9:09 pm ET)
                             
                          Phil,
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Cheney2012 (July 05, 2008 9:09 pm ET)
                             
                          Phil,
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by mary59 (July 06, 2008 7:48 pm ET)
                               
                            noleftturns, Dr. Phil's message box is full, but try again later, and if you're wacky enough, he might invite you to spill your guts on his teevee show.  Good luck.
                            Report Abuse
                        • Author by princeofwheels (July 05, 2008 11:20 pm ET)
                             
                          Any other tricks? you have me convinced that those liberals are stoopid. I just don't know what I be going to do when they win the White House and have the majority in both houses. You, me and Noleftturns have to stick together and show them thar damn libruals that we can win with words and TRICKS.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:25 am ET)
                               
                            I'm not calling anyone stupid, just lacking any coherent arguments.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 1:33 am ET)
                                 

                              We lack coherent arguments like Iraq was related to 9/11 or your crown jewel: liberal Americans wanted AQ to attack America because we hate America?  Why would we be in America if we hated it?  

                              Yeah, you're chock full of well thought out, researched, mature, intellectual arguments.  We bow before your superior intellect and logic.  

                              Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (July 05, 2008 4:23 am ET)
                         

                      Wow, that's what you think?

                      Yes.

                      OBL had nothing to do with it?

                      Of course not.  Bush is the sole person that made the decision to invade (I'm assuming with no input from OBL) and that decision has facilated the deaths of countless Iraqis and 4000+ Americans.

                      Who exactly do you think is the head of al queda?

                      OBL and Zawarihi

                      Or are you one of the many deniers who claim al queda has no real power?

                      They have more power than they did before Bush took office,

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by loonz (July 05, 2008 4:32 am ET)
                           

                        Wow, that's what you think?

                        Yes.

                        OBL had nothing to do with it?

                        Of course not.  Bush is the sole person that made the decision to invade Iraq (I'm assuming with no input from OBL) and that decision has facilitated the deaths of countless Iraqis and 4000+ Americans.

                        Who exactly do you think is the head of al queda?

                        OBL and Zawarihi.

                        Or are you one of the many deniers who claim al queda has no real power?

                        They have more power than they did before Bush took office.

                        Yeah, that's it. That's the only way you can correlate your "idea" that Bush is responsible for the death and destruction in Iraq.

                        He made the decision to invade Iraq so he is responsible for all the death and destruction.

                        That guy is a total moron, and you want him controlling "the button"?

                        Even though a total moron he's still far more better than Bush, McCain or any republican.  Republicans are a step above brain-dead.

                        Report Abuse
                • Author by jawill11 (July 04, 2008 10:08 pm ET)
                     

                  Man, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  You are really doing yourself and your country a disservice by not actually learning about what is going on in Iraq.  The terrorists doing the killing?  The overwhelming majority of killing has been ethnic cleansing that we either did nothing to stop, or outright facilitated.  It's not terrorism, it's groups of people fighting for dominance in a vacuum that we created.  

                  As for your 1st grade history lesson on recent presidential actions, who was it that both supported Saddam and sold arms to the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war?  It wasn't Clinton or Carter.  How about Clinton vs. Bush, in the two big examples of genocide during their terms, Darfur and  Kosovo, one of those presidents acted and stopped the genocide while managing to not get one single service member killed and avoid a long term and costly occupation.  The other did nothing and wasted trillions of dollars and millions of lives in a war of choice.  

                  You really should learn more about what is being done in your name at the highest levels of our government.  It isn't pretty.  And the more you ignore it and believe the propaganda handed to you by those who profit from these sins, the more you become complicit in their betrayal of our country.  Happy Independence Day.   

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by open_mind (July 04, 2008 1:58 pm ET)
                 

              "Yes, you got me. The reason we went in was an invented lie, but the end result is he stopped murdering thousands of innocent people. Don't you hate it when an invented lie actually produces the result that needed to be done? Well, you liberals sure hate that."--philib

              Nevermind that Saddam seems to have killed people at a much lower rate than what has happened in Iraq since our invasion.  But the good news is that at least we are out a half-trillion dollars for our effort.  Nice work, guys.

              Your first mistake was not considering there are more options than just to make war or not to make war.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 2:12 pm ET)
                 
              You've got to be kidding me.  Countless Iraqis are dead or injured and four million more have been displaced because of Bush's reckless decision to invade; not to mention 4000+ Americans are dead and tens of thousands are injured just to remove a man that did the bulk of his killing 10 to 15 years prior to the invasion.  The decision to invade has got to be one of the dumbest decisions ever made by any head of state.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by philib (July 04, 2008 7:31 pm ET)
                   

                "just to remove a man that did the bulk of his killing 10 to 15 years prior to the invasion. "

                   Let's see...10 years before 2003 would be 1993. Who was president then? Why did Clinton let Saddam get away with murder? I guess the same reason he let OBL get away with murder. Neither one was important enough to him to actually go after. He was more interested in sex in the oval office. It's not like he had an important job to do, or anything. It's not like every democrat in office and every intel agency was warning him about the dangers of both men. I guess Bosnia was more of a threat, so he bombed 2700 innocent women/children to death. Not to mention all the schools and hospitals he destroyed.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 8:06 pm ET)
                     

                    Let's see...10 years before 2003 would be 1993. Who was president then? Why did Clinton let Saddam get away with murder?

                  You misunderstood me.  The bulk of the killing took place under Reagan and Bush and for most of that time they consider him an ally.

                  I guess the same reason he let OBL get away with murder.

                  You're somewhat confused.  Bush let OBL get away with the deaths of 3000 Americans.  And he's probably happy as hell that Bush got 4000 Americans killed in Iraq.

                  I guess Bosnia was more of a threat, so he bombed 2700 innocent women/children to death. Not to mention all the schools and hospitals he destroyed.

                  So you want to prosecute Clinton along with Bush?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 8:20 pm ET)
                       

                    I guess Bosnia was more of a threat, so he bombed 2700 innocent women/children to death. Not to mention all the schools and hospitals he destroyed.

                    So you want to prosecute both Clinton and Bush?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by philib (July 05, 2008 6:35 pm ET)
                         
                         I don't want to prosecute either one of them. I just thought liberals would be honest enough to realize and accept that Bush isn't the only one responsible for the situation we find ourselves in now. What do you think are the chances that a liberal will accept the fact that democrats are also responsible for this current situation? Yeah...I suspect those odds are close to nil, also. So much for honesty in liberal-land.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 2:31 am ET)
                           
                        I have previously stated that anyone who voted for that Iraq War Authorization needs to be voted out of office.  That was a complete abandonment of a Constitutional duty.  Both Dems and Republicans who approved need to go PERIOD.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 7:38 pm ET)
                     

                  "I guess Bosnia was more of a threat, so he bombed 2700 innocent women/children to death. Not to mention all the schools and hospitals he destroyed."--philib

                  Why did you oppose the war in Bosnia then?  I am confused. Was the body count not high enough for you?  You like Iraq's numbers better?

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by DeminTX (July 04, 2008 2:48 pm ET)
                 

              Your logic, or lack of, is pathetic.  Other posters have already stated what I would say.  To recklessly lose and maim American military men/women over a callous dictator that posed no threat to America's safety or freedom is the worst foreign policy decision in America's history. 

              Now, we're finding out that oil companies with ties to Bush are securing "no-bid" contracts in Iraq.  So, we really finding out the reason for the invasion.  This is nothing more than "blood money".  If this is what you support, PhilLib, then you are truly a demented individual.  I feel sorry for you. 

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (July 05, 2008 12:08 pm ET)
                   

                My belief is that the war supporters have so much invested in this folly, that they will go to any lengths to not have to admit that they supported the unwarranted death of thousands of innocent people.  They lie about Obama, Clinton, reasons for the war, how "bad" Saddam was, anything to take responsibility for their poor judgement in supporting a failed president.

                Yes, Bush supporters, you all have blood on your hands.  And it won't easily come off soon.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by wesley (July 06, 2008 9:22 am ET)
               

             -- It wasn't the reason given -- demintx

            You're correct...it wasn't "the" reason given. For those who have been unwilling to look beyond the soundbites and WMD...they'll find there were many reasons cited:

            Direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire...Congress urged the President "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.

            ...continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait

            ...the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States...by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council

            ...Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens

            ...United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660

            ...Congress...has authorized the President "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677"

            ... the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime

            ...the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups...it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary

            ... the President has authority under the Constitution to take action...it is in the national security of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region

            I omitted the braille tags on this because it wouldn't make any difference to those blinded by their hatred of Pres.Bush. The reasons to go to war were many but ignored by those clinging to the lack of WMD's.

            I respect the right of anyone opposing the decision to go to war in Iraq...as long as they recognize the whole scenario...not just the irrational howling about the failure to find stockpiles of WMD. 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 11:18 am ET)
                 

              Wes, why do you make the assumption that the only two possible scenarios were to embrace Saddam or to invade the country.  Nobody is claiming that Saddam was a puppy dog or that he didn't violate UN mandates.  There are dozens of regimes doing that as we speak.  The point is that none of what he did constituted a compelling reason to invade the country and endure the obviously predictable fallout.  Furthermore, we are talking about the reasons given to the American people by the Bush administration, such as Condi's mushroom cloud, Powell's crack vile, Cheney's nuclear weapons, curveball's repeated lies, the manipulation of intelligence that has been WELL documented, etc.  Again, I could go on for pages and pages.  

              Finally, if you believe that the invasion was warranted based on what Saddam did, then I assume you think it would be prudent to invade the Sudan, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea, and several other countries. 

              Report Abuse
              • Author by wesley (July 06, 2008 11:45 am ET)
                   

                 -- the only two possible scenarios were to embrace Saddam or to invade the country. -- jawill

                I didn't state that those were the only options. Certainly other options other than war could have proven viable. The point remains that WMD's were not the only factor for the war.

                For those that chose to get their info from soundbites and headlines...I can see where they would be confused. For those that delved a little deeper and followed the debate in congress and bothered to read and comprehend the Iraq War resolution...there were a multitude of reasons to pursue the course that Pres.Bush chose.

                The argument that other countries fit the same profile of Iraq is ridiculous. That argument relies on the same myopic reasoning of those proclaiming we were lied to about WMD's and there was no reason to go to war with Iraq...it is simply a red herring tossed out to overlook the facts presented about the multiple reasons to justify the war in Iraq.

                Plug in the names of Sudan, Myanmar, N.Korea or any others...in the Iraq War resolution and you will see obvious distinctions...because they won't fit. 

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 12:06 pm ET)
                     

                  "I respect the right of anyone opposing the decision to go to war in Iraq...as long as they recognize the whole scenario...not just the irrational howling about the failure to find stockpiles of WMD." - Wesley

                  "Nobody is claiming that Saddam was a puppy dog or that he didn't violate UN mandates.  There are dozens of regimes doing that as we speak.  The point is that none of what he did constituted a compelling reason to invade the country and endure the obviously predictable fallout." - Jawill

                  "The argument that other countries fit the same profile of Iraq is ridiculous. That argument relies on the same myopic reasoning of those proclaiming we were lied to about WMD's and there was no reason to go to war with Iraq...it is simply a red herring tossed out to overlook the facts presented about the multiple reasons to justify the war in Iraq." - Wesley

                  Doesn't it seem a little inconsistent to say you respect the right to oppose the war as long as all the reasons listed are considered, then label Jawill's response to those reasons as "ridiculous" and "myopic"?  Apparently one only has the right to oppose the war as long as they support the war.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 12:33 pm ET)
                     

                  That argument relies on the same myopic reasoning of those proclaiming we were lied to about WMD's and there was no reason to go to war with Iraq...

                  There's was no reason to go to war with Iraq.  The Iraq invasion is probably the dumbest decision ever made by a president.

                  it is simply a red herring tossed out to overlook the facts presented about the multiple reasons to justify the war in Iraq.

                  The only reason that justified wasting lives in Iraq was the WMD argument.  The other arguments may have justified sanctions but they didn't warrant wasting the lives of Americans.

                  And you're under the impression that the Neocons went into Iraq under noble intentions.  They did it out of their own selfish [oil] interests.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:55 pm ET)
                     

                  "I didn't state that those were the only options. Certainly other options other than war could have proven viable. The point remains that WMD's were not the only factor for the war."--wesley

                  They were the main reason.  It cannot just be ignored or brushed off as a "soundbyte".  This was a deliberate coordinated message of which soundbytes were a healthy and integral component.

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 11:18 am ET)
                 

              So if there were legitimate reasons to overthrow Iraq, why not sell those to the American public instead pushing WMD's and 9/11?  Those were the main reasons given to the public.

              Without those rationales, similar arguments could be made to invade other countries.  Killing people and violating UN resolutions?   Let's go get Israel, then, especially if we're going to talk about eliminating sources of conflict in the Middle East.

              "Use of force" doesn't mean an overthrow.  "Necessary means" doesn't either.  The administration has to show how the actions taken are necessary to address the problems.  Most people consider regime change to be a last resort, requiring a higher standard than is needed for air strikes or sanctions.

              So the question is, do you think that the public would have supported an occupation of indeterminate length for rationales that are thirteen years old and older?  If not, then I wonder how you can criticize the outcry over a pretense to go to war that misled the public.  It would seem to be a pretty valid concern for anyone, including you.

              I'll thank you in advance for a relevant and cordial response. 

              Report Abuse
            • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 11:39 am ET)
                 

              I respect the right of anyone opposing the decision to go to war in Iraq...as long as they recognize the whole scenario...not just the irrational howling about the failure to find stockpiles of WMD.

              The only reason why anyone even considered putting Americans lives on the line is because of the WMD argument.  Without that argument, the authorization would have been laughed out of Congress and the UN would have told us to go f**k ourselves.  That's why the administration did everything possibly (mislead, lie, obfuscate and conflate) to advance the WMD argument along with the false Al Qaeda/Iraq connection.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by thomp.steve9098 (July 06, 2008 12:54 pm ET)
                 

              You're correct...it wasn't "the" reason given. For those who have been unwilling to look beyond the soundbites and WMD...they'll find there were many reasons cited:

              Hey Wesley, in my view it's difficult to argue that the administration did not in fact tout wmd's as the main justification for the war, particularly in the most public spheres like the UN.  However, an excellent book that addresses alot of the arguments you make in your posts is War and Decision, by Doug Feith.  It's exhaustively detailed and documented, and belies much of "conventional wisdom" we now hear from the media and hindsight-minded politicians.  Have you read it?  The antagonisms between the pentagon v. the state department and CIA  regarding war planning are interesting

              Report Abuse
              • Author by wesley (July 06, 2008 1:24 pm ET)
                   

                Certainly WMD's were a major factor in deciding to go to war. Yet, there were many other factors that influenced the final decision...and many of the crowd that simply hates Pres.Bush conveniently leave those out of the equation.

                I find little value or importance to those that screech the sentiments of "Bush Lied, People Died".

                As to your book tout, no I haven't read it but I will put it on my shopping list of reading material...appreciate the tip. 

                Report Abuse
                • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 1:49 pm ET)
                     

                  Wes, I find it interesting that you are insulting the very group of people who got it right on the Iraq issue.  Sure there were multiple reasons, but none of them were true.  Nobody who was alive during 2002-2003 could argue that the AQ connection and WMD were the only reasons talked about before the war because those were the only ones that, if true, would be reason enough to actually invade the country.  The other reasons were not even close to being serious enough to invade. 

                  As I said before, there are mountains of evidence that there was zero connection between AQ and Saddam and that there were no WMD.  But, the propaganda campaign was so effective that even today on this thread we can see two idiots still claiming that Iraq had WMD and were connected to AQ and 9/11. 

                  If your argument is that the administration did not lie or twist intelligence, then you are ignorant beyond saving.  If your argument is that you acknowledge that those reasons were not true, are you saying that the other reasons (dictator, UN sanction violations) were actually reason enough to invade and suffer through the predictably disastrous fallout?  In that case, was it justifiable that the American people were duped into supporting the war because the ends justified the means?  How do you think that argument would fly for family members of fallen soldiers, or those who have no limbs left, especially those who signed up after 9/11 to try and fight the actual war on terrorism? 

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by wesley (July 06, 2008 2:08 pm ET)
                       

                    Of course it was justifiable beyond the reason of WMD to liberate Iraq and remove saddam as a threat to international peace...debatable surely...but justifiable to many as clearly stated in the war resolution.

                    Family members of fallen soldiers and the wounded themselves have continually stated in public their support for the mission...so I'll let their feelings speak for themselves...rather than through an armchair quarterback replaying the run up to yesterday's game.

                    If the war is such a travesty it should be a simple matter to withdraw...admit a mistake...and turn Iraq over to the people. However, the great peace candidate, Obama, cannot even face that issue. If you think the next president will stop the war any time soon...you better pick a candidate other than Obama or McCain...it ain't gonna happen. 

                     

                     

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 2:24 pm ET)
                         

                      Again, if it's "justifiable", why not use those reasons to sell the war to the public?  Is it because the people wouldn't accept them, do you think?   If that's the case, then it would seem to be a matter of the ends justifying the means.

                      You can't genuinely argue that the legality or justness of the war has anything to do with the logistics of abandoning it.  These are completely separate concepts.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 3:59 pm ET)
                           

                        I agree, Brab.

                        The reason the administration did not use the reasoning Wes mentions is because it obviously wasn't sexy enough to rally the people behind the war in the administration's view.  Using the WMD and 9/11 angle appears to be a pretty deliberate appeal to the public's emotions as opposed to the other possible reasons.

                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (July 06, 2008 2:27 pm ET)
                         

                      Of course it was justifiable beyond the reason of WMD to liberate Iraq and remove saddam as a threat to international peace...debatable surely...but justifiable to many as clearly stated in the war resolution.

                      You still don't get it.  The war resolution wouldn't have gone anywhere [or even been proposed] without the WMD argument.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Brabantio (July 06, 2008 4:05 pm ET)
                           

                        Wesley has to ignore that or deny it.  If those causes weren't necessary to sell the public on the war, then we have to wonder why they were presented as the key justifications.  Just for the fun of making up reasons, or what?

                        And if they were necessary to sell the war to the public, then he's got an even bigger problem, because then the war would have been viewed in a very different light without those reasons.  If there's any significant chance that war would have been more easily viewed as a "travesty", then we could have withdrawn our troops much earlier (by Wesley's own words such a withdrawal would not be a problem) or never sent them in at all.  So in that case, soldiers would have died as a result of Bush's lies, which is a sentiment Wesley has explicitly denounced.

                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by worrierking (July 06, 2008 3:12 pm ET)
                         
                      "Family members of fallen soldiers and the wounded themselves have continually stated in public their support for the mission...so I'll let their feelings speak for themselves...rather than through an armchair quarterback replaying the run up to yesterday's game."

                      That statement is true as is this statement.

                      "Family members of fallen soldiers and the wounded themselves have continually stated in public their lack of support for the mission...so I'll let their feelings speak for themselves...rather than through an armchair quarterback replaying the run up to yesterday's game.'

                      You'll find families of the dead and wounded and the troops themselves who've served in questionable wars fall pretty much on both sides of the issue.

                      But today, we've got an administration and media talking heads who preach that failure to support this and other wars is treason, even for those of us who've fought in those wars.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by juliajayne (July 06, 2008 6:21 pm ET)
                   
                However, an excellent book that addresses alot of the arguments you make in your posts is War and Decision, by Doug Feith.  It's exhaustively detailed and documented, and belies much of "conventional wisdom" we now hear from the media and hindsight-minded politicians.  Have you read it?  The antagonisms between the pentagon v. the state department and CIA  regarding war planning are interesting

                 

                • - thomp.steve9098 / Sunday July 6, 2008 12:54:55 PM EDT

                 

                You can not be serious! And I'm not just practicing my imitation of John McEnroe.

                Any cursory reading of who Douglas Feith is would necessarily discount most anything he says. In his case the messenger IS the message. And he's not a particularly reliable messenger regardless of his scholarly BS dressing up of this issue.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (July 06, 2008 7:57 pm ET)
                     

                  Consulting Doug Feith for insight into the Iraqi situation would be like consulting Rush Limbaugh on tips for a successful marriage.  Egads, all these "experts"

                  Ex-spurt= a drip under pressure.

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (July 06, 2008 3:14 pm ET)
             

          The "cause of the invasion" sure is a lie to those "many hundreds of thousands" people who were murdered by Saddam. Who's using lies to forward their agenda now?

          If we invaded every country that treated their citizens inhumanely we would need to bring back the draft. Why didn't we invade China? You talk about the inhumane treatment? Murder? But I forgot, we can't invade China for human rights abuse, what would Wal-Mart do? Wasn't North Korea on the "list of evil"? They starve AND murder their citizens. Why didn't we invade them?  You can't police the world through war, that's why we have diplomacy.

          FACTS: We invaded the WRONG freaking country based on LIES! The sudden concern for Saddam killing his citizens is designed to trigger emotions so that folks won't see the fact that 4,113 Americans soldiers were killed, more the number killed on 9/11 all due to the war and occupation of a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11! The people responsible for 9/11 have reconstituted and are stronger than before AND America is LESS safe. June 2008, more soldiers died in Afghanistan than in Iraq.

          There have been documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulting in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths."

          The US supported Saddam during this period and hated Iran because of  the embassy takeover and hostages-taking of Americans. THAT cannot be used as an excuse to invade and occupy Iraq. http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_world_battle022703.htm

           

          Report Abuse
    • Author by cArn (July 03, 2008 10:05 pm ET)
         

      I would say I didn't really need to see the plans for the house, if I trusted the architect.

      Sorry, but I disagree. 

      Report Abuse
    • Author by truthseeker77 (July 03, 2008 11:13 pm ET)
         

      Does Media Matters agree that Obama has nothing about talking to commanders on the ground in his website, which is the best way for him to convey the messages he want out there?

      Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by cArn (July 03, 2008 11:32 pm ET)
         
      Barack Obama would immediately begin redeploying American
      troops from Iraq. The withdrawal would be strategic and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by truthseeker77 (July 04, 2008 12:09 am ET)
           

        Carn, your quote shows no reference to consulting with commanders on the ground. It simply says that they will DIRECT the "immediate redeployment".

         

        One thing is George W. Bush telling Donald Rumsfeld to direct torture, and another thing is Bush consulting with Rumsfeld in order to get his opinion about whether torture is right or wrong.

        By the way, if it were true that, as you and other claim, Obama would first consult with these commanders, why did Obama boldly vowed (in your excerpt) to "immediately redeploy" forces, if he had not consulted with commanders there yet? Remember, he had not visited Iraq at the time he wrote this.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by loonz (July 04, 2008 6:49 am ET)
             

          "Remember, he had not visited Iraq at the time he wrote this."

          You don't have to visit Iraq to know what's going on there.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by truthseeker77 (July 05, 2008 1:53 pm ET)
               

            So you tell me, did Obama consult with these commanders? And what did they tell him about the timetable?

            You are clearly suggested Obama already got their opinion on the matter.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by loonz (July 05, 2008 6:25 pm ET)
                 

              So you tell me, did Obama consult with these commanders?

              Petraeus just testified to Congress.

              And what did they tell him about the timetable?

              You don't get it.  The civilian command sets the mission and the military finds the best way to execute it.  When Barack becomes president the mission will change and the commanders on the ground will be task with finding the best way to execute that mission.  I don't think some of the guys on the ground are prepared for a mission change so they will probably be replace.

              Report Abuse
    • Author by cArn (July 03, 2008 11:40 pm ET)
         
      I agree that he could add more to his website about seeking advice from those on the ground.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by cArn (July 04, 2008 1:05 am ET)
         
      *raises white flag*
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (July 04, 2008 2:41 am ET)
           

        I saw this tonight on Fox, that Obama not once, but twice, had to explain to the press that he may change his opinion after visiting Iraq. The lettering on-screen said "Double talk ?"

        Imagine admitting that, on receiving new information, a person might modify the details of  their position. That's not the sort of resolute stay-the-course attitude that got us where we are today.

        On an off-topic note( from the Presidential campaign, anyway) but related to the tendency of the media to bring up talking points under the guise of mentioning their non-mentioning of those issues, BilldO Reilly's fill-in (John Somebody) had a beaut tonight.

        Reporting on the child molester in Vermont who had "graduated" from the sex-offender classes, John asked his co-monkey about the reasons for the pedophile being free. She started in about the "Vermont judicial system", and after letting her get the meat out there, he gently interrupted her, saying it would be easy to make it political, but that wasn't the way they rolled on the factor.

        They went on to name names with the liberal judges in Vermont, but in a very "fair & balanced" objective manner. Yeesh.

         

        Report Abuse
        • Author by wookie (July 04, 2008 7:06 am ET)
             

          >>I saw this tonight on Fox, that Obama not once, but twice, had to explain to the press that he may change his opinion after visiting Iraq. The lettering on-screen said "Double talk ?"

          That wasn't just a holdover from their McCain coverage?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (July 05, 2008 12:10 pm ET)
               

            And then you have David Brooks who opines that we're succeeding in Iraq because of Bush's stubborness and willingness to "stay the course".

            Leaders that can't process new information are doomed to failure.  We're watching it every day.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by truthseeker77 (July 05, 2008 1:55 pm ET)
                 

              And then you have David Brooks who opines that we're succeeding in Iraq because of Bush's stubborness and willingness to "stay the course".

              Actually, we are succeeding because violence is sharply down.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (July 05, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                   

                Sharply down?  From what?  Let's check the news today, why don't we.

                First off - it looks like we're creating more female suicide bombers.  Is that a success?

                The women who become suicide bombers often have lost close male relatives — a husband, a brother, a son — in fighting, because they became suicide bombers themselves or because they were detained by American or Iraqi security forces. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/world/middleeast/05diyala.html?_r=1&ref=worldspecial&oref=slogin

                Civilians are still getting killed

                The American military said airstrikes by its attack helicopters in eastern Afghanistan hit two vehicles carrying insurgents on Friday, but a provincial governor said 22 civilians, including a woman and a child, had been killed.  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/world/asia/05afghan.html?ref=worldspecial

                Diplomacy is going nowhere.

                Declaring that there will not be “another colonization of Iraq,” Iraq’s foreign minister raised the possibility on Wednesday that a full security agreement with the United States might not be reached this year, and that if one was, it would be a short-term pact.   http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03iraq.html?ref=worldspecial

                Is this success?

                More American and coalition troops died in Afghanistan last month than during any other month since the American-led invasion began in 2001, the latest evidence of a strengthening Taliban insurgency that has menaced NATO forces and reclaimed control over some southern and eastern parts of the country.  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/washington/02military.html?ref=worldspecial

                You can now safely put your head back in the sand.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Cheney2012 (July 06, 2008 12:42 am ET)
                     

                  When the 'news' you cite is the New York Times you really can't be taken seriously.  They've been known to make up stories for years.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jawill11 (July 06, 2008 1:40 am ET)
                       

                    Keep ignoring reality.  It's worked out so well for you so far.  

                    I guess we need to find articles from the Las Vegas Sun for you to believe them.   

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (July 06, 2008 2:33 am ET)
                       
                    You don't get off that easy.  Give evidence that each of those stories is made up.  That is the basic conservative cop-out.  Just dismiss anything that doesn't fit your worldview as biased instead of actually providing any evidence to back it up.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by chamay0 (July 04, 2008 1:22 am ET)
         
      It is a little bit of fun watching the republican party try to define Obama.  They do not have a snow balls chance in hell of doing it, but it's funny.  The few things that Obama have pointed out that he would do differently they jump on.  McCain have flip-flops beyond belief but now the new MSM message is that they both flip-flop.  It is a joke.  Why does the MSM play the American people so stupid.  I've got a good mind to start putting some of them out of business.  All it takes is a voice of boycotting.  Hmmm?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wolf kotenberg (July 04, 2008 1:29 pm ET)
         
      It seems to me Obama is talking about combat troops, not the "protect the embassies " military forces. I applaud Obama for telling us the truth and reality of the situation as it evolves. The signal is out that we can stand up to the loud war mongering lying bunch and operate on truth and fact, not innuendo and lies and scare tactics. And if anyone thinks Al_Jazeera is not hearing McCain fumble thru the stay-the-course 100 year war, i can garanttee you they are.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by right-winger (July 05, 2008 7:23 am ET)
         
      THE MEDIA IS THE GOP!  I LOVE HOW THE MEDIA WILL JUMP ON THE GOP TALKING POINTS AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. SCARE,SCARE, SCARE. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY OBAMA  DON'T CALL THE MEDIA OUT .THE ONLY PERSON WHO WILL DO IT IS BIDEN. THEY LOVE TO PUT WORDS UP LIKE OBAMA FLIP FLOPED, OBAMA GOING BACK ON HIS WORD ABOUT THE WAR, OBAMA WON'T WEAR A FLAG PIN, OBAMA DIDN'T SHAKE HILLARY HAND, OBAMA DIDN'T PUT HIS HAND OVER HIS HEART, OBAMA MADE THE SAME SPEECH THAT HIS FRIEND DID AND I CAN GO ON AND ON. AND FOR YOU HILLARY SUPPORTERS WHO ARE STILL NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR OBAMA IN THE NEW CNN POLL WHEN HILLARY TOLD YOU TOO, LIKE I SAID OBAMA COULD PUT HILLARY ON THE TICKET AND YOU PEOPLE WOULD STILL NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA AND YOU KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY????
      Report Abuse
      • Author by truthseeker77 (July 05, 2008 1:57 pm ET)
           

        THE MEDIA IS THE GOP! 

        I agree, but we have to admit that Obama wouldn't even be facing McCain if it wasn't for the media. Remember the primaries?

         

        Report Abuse
    • Author by RoberttheP (July 06, 2008 3:12 pm ET)
         

      I think anything is better than our current Iraq policy?

       

      Report Abuse
    • Author by mastershag3769 (July 06, 2008 3:39 pm ET)
         
      I wonder how much of the media gets it wrong because they want to get it wrong?  Most of us hear what we want to hear.  Perhaps the media needs to shut up and let Senator Obama state his piece, which he has on endless occassions.  I'm really sick of the media anyway.  There is no reporting....everybody's a news commentor.  Big difference in reporting and stating personal commentary.  Fox news in particular should rename it's self...it acts more line "Star" or the "National Enquirer".  It's just a rag spouting propaganda for McCain and party.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (July 06, 2008 6:28 pm ET)
         
      Its no use trying to talk to TRUTHSEEKER and PHILIB. They are both drunk on the RIGHT WING GOP koolaid that the CONSERVATIVES keep pouring down their throats.No matter what we do, they will never come around and see the truth. They will keep their heads buried in the RIGHT WING quicksand.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (July 06, 2008 8:05 pm ET)
           
        How true that is.  Unless they get drafted to go fight over there, or the IRS comes directly to their house to grab cash out of their wallets for the occupation, they won't get it.
        Report Abuse

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