Luntz falsely claimed McCain had "never really talked about" decision to refuse early release prior to Saddleback forum
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SUMMARY: Frank Luntz falsely claimed that Sen. John McCain had "never really talked about" his decision to refuse an offer of early release from a North Vietnamese prison camp prior to mentioning it during an August 16 forum hosted by Pastor Rick Warren. In fact, McCain has repeatedly cited his refusal to accept an early release in a book, interviews, speeches, and campaign ads since 1999.
On the August 18 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, pollster Frank Luntz falsely claimed that Sen. John McCain had "never really talked about" his decision to refuse an offer of early release from a North Vietnamese prison camp prior to mentioning it during his August 16 appearance at Pastor Rick Warren's Saddleback Church. In fact, McCain has repeatedly cited his refusal to accept an early release in a book, interviews, speeches, and campaign ads since 1999, as Media Matters for America has documented.
Luntz's false assertion that McCain has only recently "talked about" his refusal to accept an early release follows a pattern in the media, including others on Fox News, promoting the notion that McCain has been reluctant to discuss his time as a prisoner of war, despite his frequent references to it.
From the August 18 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:
ALAN COLMES (co-host): Obama, though, shows up in clearly what could be considered hostile territory to some extent. He's not the home team there. He doesn't get to go last, doesn't get the final word. And I -- and certainly had the -- certainly had the crowd -- was appreciating many of the things he said. But I think he's being undervalued in terms of his performance.
LUNTZ: He did -- he did well. When I -- after the first hour, if we were dial-testing it, you would have said that Barack Obama exceeded expectations, but John McCain delivered. And we've got a couple segments to show you.
There's one where McCain was asked a question about a tough decision that he made, and he talked about Vietnam and the decision not to go home early. First person in has to be the first person to leave. McCain decided to stay, and he talked about the consequences. Let's listen.
McCAIN [video clip]: I said no, and I'll never forget sitting, in my last answer, and the high-ranking officer offered to slam the door, and the interrogator said, "Go back to your cell. It's going to be very tough on you now." And it was, but I -- not only the toughest decision I ever made, but I'm most happy about that decision than any decision I ever made in my life.
LUNTZ: And you know what? They broke him. They physically broke him. And when he -- cannot leave -- raise his arm above his head, and he doesn't walk without a limp. Physically, he paid the price, but that was a decision, and he's never really talked about it until this forum.
SEAN HANNITY (co-host): Hey, Frank, by the way, just one observation. He looked like he's 50 years old in this thing. Did he -- did you notice the vibrancy? He looked young. He looked healthy. I love not -- seeing him not having a tie.
One of the most appalling and offensive things that Luntz said last night was how 'McCain was protecting his country when he was a POW, but others were not...' bla bla bla.
There is nothing more sanctimoniously hypocritical than for guys who have never served-- and who weren't even around back then-- waxing poetic about the glories of the Vietnamese War.
It was an awful thing, an obscenity-- and now we have to agree that it was a triumph of Democracy? Christ almighty. What revisionist lies.
McCain has repeatedly cited his refusal to accept an early release in a book, interviews, speeches, and campaign ads since 1999.
Speeches - spoken language
Interviews - almost always done in person, with the spoken word
Campaign ads - mostly radio and TV, which use the spoken word
Unless he's Marlee Matlin, McCain talked his "speeches," eh kimosabe?
Anyway, it would have been a violation of military rules for McCain to have accepted an early release, or any kind of favors from his captors. The MSM ignores this-- Mc' would have been in serious trouble when he came home, especially as a navy son.
And hey, why is everyone acceding to Rick Davis' Republican demand that this 'cone of silence' issue be dropped and not pursued?
Anyway, it would have been a violation of military rules for McCain to have accepted an early release, or any kind of favors from his captors. The MSM ignores this-- Mc' would have been in serious trouble when he came home, especially as a navy son.
Carl, I've never heard that. Are you sure? That would put a bit of tarnish on his story.
Do you have any kind of link I could read?
Article III of the Military Code of Conduct specifically spells out that one should not accept special favors. In this case, early release would be a special favor. McCain was obligated by the Code of Conduct to not accept early release.
I have no qualms with his military service. Only his politics and brazen flip-flopping.
Here's the link: Forgot to add to post above.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/codeofconduct3.htm
Do you have any kind of link I could read?
Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.
3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html
Trying to attack McCain on whether he talks about being a POW is like trying to attack Obama over his genetic makeup.
It only makes the attacker look to be grasping at straws.
It's conservative misinformation.
It makes McCain look better than he deserves to look. That forwards the conservative agenda.
That reminds me of another Simpsons quote:
Marge: The only person you should be giving chicken-grease neck-rubs to is me! But not me, because I think they're disgusting!
Homer: Oh, so now we're judging each other based on things we've done? Real nice, Marge! Class act!
Dips***Jasper posted:
I think McGramps was 50 when he tried to blow up the Forestall.
You are an idot and a liar. Please back up this ridiculous statement. McCains aircraft was hit by a rocket from another a/c. How exactly did HE blow up the Forestall again?
Tool.
I'll take that as a retraction. I'm not buds with SH nor am I a fan of his show. You will have to fight that battle. As I've posted here before I see the left attacking and lying about JM's military service. This accident is one he is getting blamed for with no proof or credible source. Lucky for us the Forrestal had the PLAT tape running:
Forrestal rocket accident
I can understand your frustration, but let's keep the debate above board here.
Fair enough. Fight the fire however you feel you need. I appreciate your passion. Just make the argument without fudging the facts.
Statements like "he tried to blow up the Forestall" don't cut it. it's not true. Now if you can PROVE he tried to sabotage the USS Forrestal, then I'm all ears!
Two points...
First, while McCain's refusal of an early release was certainly commendable, wasn't he required to do that under the military Code of Conduct (to which he alluded the other night)?
Secondly, this quote bothered me when I heard Lutz say it...
They broke him. They physically broke him. And when he -- cannot leave -- raise his arm above his head, and he doesn't walk without a limp.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't John McCain's injuries occur when his plane crashed...and exacerbated when he was not afforded medical treatment for over a week? How much of his present immobility is the result of torture...or the result of his plane crash injuries and lack of prompt medical treatment?
Yeah, I knew you'd suggest that songbird's torture was somehow worse...
Snoopy:
Where's you get those pictures? Can you prove they show what you claim they show?
Yes I can. Surprised you aren't familiar with them...
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/04/30/16790301.php
I wish we did this to MORE of these bastards that kill Americans, innocent Civilians in Iraq...
It's like in Texas, we kill em in Death Row, our murder rate is much lower the CA and NY where the bad guys know nothing will happen to em.
Torture em all, make it VERY well know and see the violence against Americans drop.
Better yet, take the cuffs off our soldiers and let em open up with real "shock & awe".
Actually according to the US Census reports the murder rate per 100,000 people in CA is 7, NY is 5 and TX is 6.
But don't let something like a fact get in the way of your baseless opinions now.
Yeah..that was REAL torture not the B.S. the left whines incessantly about these days.
Yeah, a lot like the millions of tons of bombs that McCain and his ilk dropped on innocent Vietnamese civilians, in a futile war, against a phantom enemy.
Old Mac is lucky they didn't kill him after they fished him out of that lake.
Americans would have.
Yeah, a lot like the millions of tons of bombs that McCain and his ilk dropped on innocent Vietnamese civilians, in a futile war, against a phantom enemy.
Escalated and then completely mismanaged by left-wing "Progressives" Which is why the left has been trusted with the White House for just 12 of the 48 years since. And 8 of those years began just after the fall of the Soviet Union when national security became a non-issue
John's treatment as a POW:
1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.
Thanks Pearanne for clearing up the records sort of. I'll ask you, what difference would it make it they tortured McCain for two years or five? He was still bayoneted in the foot and wasn't given proper medical attention when found.
If anyone wants to get a first hand account of life in the Hanoi Hilton, please read WHEN HELL WAS IN SESSION by Jeremiah A. Denton.
You will get an unvarnished look at what torture really is and how these amazing Americans dealt with the horrors the North Vietnamese inflicted on them.
Thanks Pearanne for clearing up the records sort of. I'll ask you, what difference would it make it they tortured McCain for two years or five? He was still bayoneted in the foot and wasn't given proper medical attention when found.
Not sure who Pearanne is but I'll respond anyway.
The truth is what matters. John McCain was one of approximately 600 US soldiers held as POW's. He was NOT tortured for 5 years as some have tried to indicate, his torture ended when Ho Chi Minh died in 1969. There is proof of that other POW's had been tortured much longer then McCain.
IMO, McCain does a great disservice to even discuss his time as a POW without mentioning those that were with him. Each and every time McCain utters the words, "When I was a POW", he should ALWAYS mention those who were POW's with him. They too suffered and gave their life for their country.
I got a first hand account from Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals. http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html
He doesn't think much of McCain but his story and his opinions cannot be discounted, he was there.
Pearlene, no is saying other POW's were not tortured? I ask you again, what difference does getting tortured 2,3 or 5 years make? He was tortured for the better part of 31/2 years as far as I can tell and was held for 5 1/2 years. Two years were in solitary confinement. It's all in his own words if you care to read them.
McCains POW account
No second hand stories, strait from the horses mouth. I don't understand how you can impugn his service or his time as a POW? It is a shame...
not much. He was only "tortured" for two days.
You may be wrong about that. Read this.
More drivel. McCain was tortured throughout his being held, and he was further injured beyond those sustained in crashing when he was caught. His shoulder was broken by locals with clubs. And for those who like laying on the "song bird John" sobriquet, it was 2 1/2 years before he was "broken", and tried to kill himself, but was stopped. Nutritional deprivation, beatings, solitary confinement, santitation, and you folks have the temerity to deride him? When any of you have the moral or physical fortitude to do that, then maybe you can say something about it. Until then, you just make yourselves look like duplicitous mysanthropic ideologues with no capacity for reason, let alone compassion.
I was not allowed to see or talk to or communicate with any of my fellow prisoners. My room was fairly decent-sized—I'd say it was about 10 by 10. The door was solid. There were no windows. The only ventilation came from two small holes at the top in the ceiling, about 6 inches by 4 inches. The roof was tin and it got hot as hell in there. The room was kind of dim—night and day—but they always kept on a small light bulb, so they could observe me. I was in that place for two years. - John McCain
That sounds like a real Club Med snoop...I wonder how you'd hold up tough guy?
You said McCain did not receive bad treatment after '68. This is what McCain said:
About a month and a half later, when the three men who were selected for release had reached America, I was set up for some very severe treatment which lasted for the next year and a half...When I said that, the guards, who were all in the room—about 10 of them—really laid into me. They bounced me from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes. Then I was taken to a small room. For punishment they would almost always take you to another room where you didn't have a mosquito net or a bed or any clothes. For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards. My left arm was broken again and my ribs were cracked...rom that time on it was one round of rough treatment followed by another. Sometimes I got it three or four times a week. Sometimes I'd be off the hook for a few weeks. A lot of it was my own doing, because they realized far better than we did at first the value of communicating with our fellow Americans. When they caught us communicating, they'd take severe reprisals. I was caught a lot of times....So this was a period of repeated, severe treatment. It lasted until around October of '69.-J McCain
The REAL REASON the prisoners were treated better:
In 1969, after the three guys who were released went back to the U. S. and told about the brutality in the POW camps, President Nixon gave the green light to publicizing this fact. It brought a drastic change in our treatment. And I thank God for it, because if it hadn't been for that a lot of us would never have returned. - John McCain
I'm begining to believe you're haveing a hard time with the truth snoop, no? My suggestion...less left wing crazy sites and more historical records. I'll point you in the right direction:
McCains POW account to US News and World Report
okay, since you're on a site thatyou promote abotu factual truth, depends diapers were first marketed in 1980. The Vietnam conflict was over as far as POW's known to be held were concerned in march of 1973, and ended conflict-wise with the US after Operation Linebacker pummeled the crap out of Hanoi in December of 72. I have good facts on that because my hubby was on his thrid ToD and participated in LB 2. So, your feverish fantasy about John McCain's nickname is pure unadulterated BS. I'm sure the Norht Vietnamese would have bought them in large numbers if they were available (/endsarcasm).
You wail, you moan, you complain, you point fingers.. just remember when you point one, there's usually far more pointing back at you. Your hate is showing almost as much as your dementia.
Notice MissDee that the lying hate mongers flee like rats off a ship when you post the facts and expose their lies.
Good job and kudo's to your family that served...unlike 99.9% of the zombies that post on this forum.
What a horrid thing to say, you shallow bastard, a coward lib like you would last longer? Your type won't stand for this country at all, you as most here at MMA want the end of America and it's "change" into China or Russian style socilist gov.
So go live there...
Leave my America alone, we gun loving, bible thumpers, that hate all that are different are the ones who defend your sorry ass, so you can say horrible things about America and heros.
That's a nice picture of Luntz...
He looks like he's trying to take a dump, and his hemorrhoids ar flaring up at the same time. That's disgusting!
He's: Doing a Limbaugh!!
It's the typical distorted picture that MMFA provides of its targets
The only thing around here that appears to be distorted is your view of reality.
WZWRITER:
It is you who lives in FANTASYLAND
He's: Doing a Limbaugh!!
Wouldn't that involve flying from the Dominican Republic to Florida with prescription meds in your lugage that did not have your name on it?
Or taking so much OxyContin that you go deaf?
Or getting arrested in the company of a male prostitute in Pittsburgh in the Early '70s?
And wasn't there only one Cialis missing?
I think Al Franken and others got a big kick out of this. People wanted to know where it went, in that teen-sex capital of the Northern Hemisphere..
That's a nice picture of Luntz...
It might be their best screenshot ever. I look at his face and feel like his bartender at last call and I have to remind him that he was shut off two hours ago.
He looks like he's trying to take a dump, and his hemorrhoids ar flaring up at the same time. That's disgusting!
Just a question: why are these righties always puffy and overweight-- and the gals anorexic?
Booze-- and pills for the ladies?
I'd say it's the booze...
Oh...I forgot the doobage.
Take a look at bill's eyes!
I hear they grow some awsome bud down in ARK dude!!!!!!
Sen. McCain wrote a very detailed account of his POW experiences - published in a 1973 issue of US News and World Reports.
it is readily available on the web - including the Viet Nam Veterans Against John McCain website.
I am an avid supporter of Sen. Obama. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a position of Sen. McCain's that I support. However, he does have a compelling personal story. And I would suggest anyone who is not a fellow POW should leave this part of the John McCain story alone.
Sorry, but I'll say the unsayable:
McCain voluntarily bombed innocent civilians in a criminal war. If you had told people 30 years ago that being a "hero" in the then-repudiated Vietnamese War would be considered an honor in the early 21st century, people wouldn't have believed you. Anywhere.
But then, if you told people 50 years ago that Ronald Reagan would one day be considered a great president of the United States, you would have been laughed out of existence, wherever you went.
This is all a real nightmare. Younger people have no idea how bad things are-- but they'll learn.
Carlib,
Things were real bad and young people can't understand......how horrible a time this country had because of Jimmy Carter.
As far as McCain, I am not a strong supporter of his policies. He isn't my first choice to lead the Republican party, I would rather have a strong conservative but hopefully he'll come around. Knowing what liberals have done in the past, especially Jimmy Carter, I am strongly against another like the one we would tragically have in Obama. McCain is light years ahead of a leftist.
And again, this is a story that most in the democrat party would not like to have before the American people because it stands in stark contrast to what the left has to offer this country.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/07/30/john-mccain-one-prisoner-of-wars-fresh-appraisal-of-us-in-1973.html
What are you talking about? I've lived through every president since Eisenhower. In each administration except this one there have been some positives and some negatives. This has been bar none the WORST 8 years of governance by a Republican president and a Republican congress. They've been dismantling government agencies by starving them of funds and hiring incompetents and cronies, bloating the military budget and enriching their pals. They've been stealing tax payer dollars. Yet you and suckers like you think they're conservative. They're just crooks and liars.
Take it easy on PlowedCon, Mary. He's got a few years of sitting in his Barcalounger muttering about Jimmy Carter before he dies, just let him enjoy it. Imagine investing your whole life in an ideology that ended up as the Repooplicken party of 2008, and being saddled with Grampy McNuthin' as the best your party could come up with. He'll just post some unrelated links and doze off if you don't get his blood too angried up.
I know most of the sane people here can't take too much of Fox "News", but if you're interested in what the Dopey-American voter is getting in the guise of information on the candidates, check out the two hour-long specials the channel is showing.
I believe they're called "Presidential something or other '08: Courage & Conduct", and they're ridiculous even for Fox.
I caught most of the Obama hour, which was mostly strange innuendo, and mentions of his swarthy college friend who "refused to go on the record" (talk to a GOP propaganda machine). It has the tone of one of those MSNBC serial killer profiles.
The McCain hour, which I caught most of tonight, is more of a Profiles in Courage piece. His years drinking and chasing women while in the service are portrayed as the adventures of a lovable tough-guy rebel, and the Keating 5 topic seems to be about Allan Cranston as villain.
Just curious, Colonel. How can you stand to watch Faux documentaries like that without heaving up your dinner?
I know your humor meter is set on high, but still...
There is a reason why Luntz rhymes with dunce. And then there's Hannity:
Hey, Frank, by the way, just one observation. He looked like he's 50 years old in this thing. Did he -- did you notice the vibrancy? He looked young. He looked healthy. I love not -- seeing him not having a tie.
Insannity was gushing about McCain not wearing a tie?! and vibrancy and youth...sounds pretty desperate if you ask me.
SEAN HANNITY (co-host): Hey, Frank, by the way, just one observation. He looked like he's 50 years old in this thing.
I don't care what Sean Insanity says - I'm 55, and no way in Hell does Gramps McCain look five years younger than me. In fact, he more closely resembles my father-in-law, and he's 83.
SEAN HANNITY (co-host): Hey, Frank, by the way, just one observation. He looked like he's 50 years old in this thing. Did he -- did you notice the vibrancy? He looked young. He looked healthy. I love not -- seeing him not having a tie.
Jeez Sean, why don't you two get a room?