For hours, Fox News reported GOP claims about American flags -- which Cameron called "the Stars and Bars" -- before providing Dem response
SUMMARY: On September 6, Fox News' America's Election HQ aired numerous reports documenting claims by Republicans and the McCain campaign that they "rescued" American flags that were going to be "disposed of" by the Democrats after their convention at Invesco Field. But during the reports, Fox News gave no indication that it had sought to contact a Democratic Party official or Obama campaign spokesperson for comment, and only reported a Democratic response hours after it began reporting the Republican claims.
Between noon and 3 p.m. ET on September 6, Fox News' America's Election HQ aired numerous reports documenting claims by Republicans and the McCain campaign that they "rescued" American flags that were going to be "disposed of" by the Democrats after their convention at Denver's Invesco Field. During the reports, Fox News gave no indication that it had sought to contact a Democratic Party official or Obama campaign spokesperson for comment. Rather, during the 2 p.m. hour, Fox News chief political correspondent Carl Cameron guessed what the "Obama campaign" would say in response to the story, stating: "It's the kind of thing that the Obama campaign will say, look, we ... had come and gone and some stuff just went bad on the ground. We didn't know that this was happening; it was a vendor problem; or it was the collection and the clean-up, and that it shouldn't reflect badly on [Sen. Barack] Obama."
It was not until the 3 p.m. hour of America's Election HQ that Cameron reported a Democratic response, reading a statement from the Democratic National Committee:
CAMERON: Well, the Democratic National Committee Convention's public affairs official, Damon Jones, has now put out a statement that completely changes the tenor of the story. It reads, quote, "American flags were proudly waved by 75,000 people who joined Barack Obama at the Democratic Convention. John McCain should applaud that, but instead his supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play out a cheap political stunt, calling into question our patriotism. On the same day he agrees to join Barack Obama at Ground Zero on September 11, John McCain attacks the patriotism of Obama supporters who so proudly waved the American flag at our historic event in Denver just days ago."
In a separate statement, the Democratic National Convention Committee said that "[s]tories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false," and added that "the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission."
Additionally, in a September 6 Huffington Post article, national editor Nico Pitney wrote:
Fox News' Carl Cameron and Bonney Kapp reported that they had "been told" that "a vendor at Invesco Field found the flags, which were going to be thrown out, and turned them over to the McCain campaign."
The Democratic convention official says that's not true.
"It's pretty reprehensible on their part," he said. "Someone made an assumption, took the flags, and essentially lied about what was going to happen to them. I mean, c'mon, we were never ever going to throw out flags."
Emails to three McCain spokespersons inquiring where the flags were found and how the McCain campaign obtained them were not returned.
While Fox News did not air a Democratic response until hours after it first reported the story, during the noon hour of America's Election HQ, co-host Kelly Wright said: "That is a major faux pas. You never discard the American flag."
During the 2 p.m. hour, Cameron also said of the story: "[J]ust having wrapped up the conventions with every single back-and-forth a potential momentum changer, you can be absolutely certain that Republicans will assert that Democrats weren't caring for the Stars and Bars." In fact, as Merriam-Webster Dictionary notes, the "Stars and Bars" is a not a nickname for the "American flag," but rather for "the first flag of the Confederate States of America having three bars of red, white, and red respectively and a blue union with white stars in a circle representing the seceded states." Indeed, an article posted on FoxNews.com notes that "the original flag of the Confederacy" is "otherwise known as the 'Stars and Bars.' "
From the September 6 edition of America's Election HQ:
CAMERON: The Republicans today, Kelly, have something to say about the American flag. Just outside, a bunch of Boy Scouts are in the process of organizing what appear to be trash bags of American flags. They say that these American flags were found at Invesco Field in Denver, apparently left behind by the Democratic National Convention.
They say that some of these flags -- and I saw about two dozen trash bags of American flags -- they say they were both in and around dumpsters as if they were being prepared to be disposed of, others were found in various different storage facilities at Invesco Field. That will be part of the opening ceremonies as they -- the Boy Scouts bring in and show that they rescued these.
Now, this is only now developing, but it's the kind of thing, while it may not have any bearing whatsoever on Barack Obama or John McCain's presidential campaigns, it does speak to an opportunity for Republicans to sort of throw sand in the gears of the Democrats, suggesting that perhaps they didn't best care for Old Glory in the wake of their convention just a week ago. Kelly?
[...]
CAMERON: We're going to see something here, later this afternoon, before the event actually starts with Sarah Palin and Senator McCain that's quite interesting. The McCain campaign has come to possess 84 trash bags full of American flags for hand-waving. They come in bundles of 15 apiece and they come in trash bags that look something like this, and there's 84 of them that they say were rescued from Invesco Field. They say that they were found near, and in, some dumpsters and in some storage areas that looked as though they were being prepared for being discarded, and they've rescued them.
Boy scouts involved in this, the VFW [Veterans of Foreign Wars] and veterans involved in this, and the McCain campaign, as part of the warm up act here, is going to explain the provenance of these flags, how they came to have them, and then the veterans in the audience will then distribute them to the folks here -- a moment where the Republican supporters of John McCain at a rally in Colorado Springs, about 70 miles south of Denver, are able to actually use what they say are the discarded American flags from the Democratic National Convention that took place here a week and a half ago. The kind of stuff that on weekends is great sand to be tossed into the gears of the Democrats by Republicans and you can count on them to use this to criticize Democrats in general for not respecting the flag.
UMA PEMMARAJU (co-host): Boy, I guess whatever it takes to get the fireworks going on both sides. All right, Carl, thank you so much for bringing us up to date from the rally. We'll be checking back with you later on. Kelly?
WRIGHT: That is a major faux pas.
PEMMARAJU: Yes.
WRIGHT: You never discard the American flag.
PEMMARAJU: Never discard.
WRIGHT: You never do that.
[...]
PEMMARAJU: OK, we're taking you out to Colorado Springs once again, where supporters are waiting to hear from John McCain and [Gov.] Sarah Palin. And also, at the scene, they are going to be a number of veterans passing out flags that were used at the Democratic National Convention that they say were tossed out. And according to our Carl Cameron, who's on the scene there, they have calculated that about 12,000 of these small flags were discarded by the Democrats at their convention. They want to take these flags and pass them out to the people out there in the crowd to wave and to honor, saying that flags are not supposed to be thrown out like this.
WRIGHT: All right, and on the other side of this, we'll hear more about it from Carl Cameron, and my good friend and your good friend Brian Wilson's coming on, on the other side of the break, with more. Continue to watch us on Fox News Channel, America's most powerful name in news.
[...]
BRIAN WILSON (co-host): We have a Fox News Alert to tell you. You are looking at an event in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Senator McCain and his running mate Sarah Palin will be speaking shortly, but right now, there's something going on rather interesting. You see those flags in the group that are being passed out? Apparently, the story goes, these were flags that were found in Denver after the Democratic Convention in Invesco.
Some felt that the flags were being improperly discarded there in Denver so they were rescued by veterans and by Boy Scout girl -- groups and they've been in the custody of those groups until today. Now, in Colorado Spring, they've trucked them down the road a little bit and they're going to pass them out and use them in the tribute to McCain and Palin today. Our Carl Cameron is standing by there. Carl, give me the background on all this.
CAMERON: Well, Brian, after the Democratic National Convention at Invesco Field, a vendor there actually discovered these trash bags filled with these hand-waving flags, and came across some full-size American flags that had been left behind. In fact, on the left of your screen, you can see one veteran waving an American flag, a full-size flag, that he says he found basically next to a dumpster.
Those trash bags that you see volunteers picking up and carting around the stage, they are filled with dozens, even hundreds, of these hand flags. They say that there's about 12,000 of them that they found that were either in dumpsters, near dumpsters, or in storage closets, as though they were going be discarded.
And they say that they rescued them. They brought them here and using Boy Scouts and vets, they're being distributed to this massive crowd. So these 12,000 American flags will now be part of a Republican rally, even though their provenance seems to have been the Democratic National Convention. And afterwards, they've made quite a to-do about saying, please, if you don't want to take the flags home with you, if you can't give these flags a good home, make sure you return them to the McCain volunteers, because they will then take them to memorials and cemeteries and places to honor veterans and to honor America across the state of Colorado after today's event.
When they announced that these flags had seemingly been left behind, abandoned by the Democrats at their convention at Invesco Field in Denver, there was a huge roar of booing. Now, they haven't gone into the exact details of how they came to be at the Republican event here for McCain and Palin, other than to say they were discovered by vendors on the way to the trash and got rescued.
It's the kind of thing that the Obama campaign will say, look, we were -- we had come and gone and some stuff just went bad on the ground. We didn't know that this was happening; it was a vendor problem; or it was the collection and the clean-up, and that it shouldn't reflect badly on Obama. But the nature of a presidential campaign, 60 days away from the election, just having wrapped up the conventions with every single back-and-forth a potential momentum changer, you can be absolutely certain that Republicans will assert that Democrats weren't caring for the Stars and Bars.
[...]
WILSON: Fox News Alert: Look at these flags waving in the breeze there in Colorado Springs, and let me tell you the back story on why there are so many flags in that picture. This is a McCain-Palin event in Colorado Springs, just down the road a bit from Denver. The flags, as the story goes, were found by vendors who were cleaning up after the Democratic National Committee at Invesco Field.
They claim these flags were found near dumpsters on their way to the trash can, and they stepped in and rescued them. It is not clear yet how exactly they got to the McCain camp, but the McCain camp is now passing out those very same flags to all of the people assembled -- and it's a pretty good crowd there in Colorado Springs today -- and they are going to use them and they've asked people there to honor the flags and to not dispose of them improperly.
[...]
WILSON: Now, here at Fox News, we always strive to be fair and balanced, and earlier in the afternoon, we heard a little bit from the Obama campaign as he was traveling around Indiana, and so, in a few moments, when they get into the heart of the speech, we will actually listen in to John McCain and Governor Palin as they speak.
Let me just talk about this other controversy that's going on while we're waiting for the hellos to get through, and that is that the flags that you see in foreground, something of a controversy brewing about those. The story goes that they were rescued by vendors at -- in Denver following the Democratic National Convention as they were cleaning up at Invesco Field. They found trash bag after trash bag after trash bag of American flags, and they rescued them, turned them over -- somehow they got into the hands of the Republicans -- and they're being distributed at this event in Colorado Springs. Let's listen in to Sarah Palin, the person that many people in political circles are focused on right now. Let's see what she has on her mind.
[...]
WILSON: Well, you've been listening to John McCain in Colorado Springs. Let me just give you a little background, as we can perhaps pull that other shot we have that shows so many flags in the background at this rally. These flags, the story goes, were rescued at Invesco Field after the Democratic National Convention ended. During the clean-up, they were -- according to the people at the campaign event today in Colorado Springs -- discarded by the Democrats, and they were rescued and brought to this event and passed out, and the crowd was asked to make sure that if you keep this flag, that you treat it with respect -- and so the Republicans getting a little bit of mileage out of that today.
[...]
WILSON: Carl, explain to us what's going on with this flag controversy at the rally today.
CAMERON: Oh, it's the delicious part of presidential politics that really doesn't have a great deal to do with issues, but has a great deal to do with character and the perception of both parties.
Earlier this morning, as we arrived here in Colorado Springs with a massive crowd, several -- maybe more then -- about 10,000 people or so, lined up literally for a mile and a half. We began to hear rumblings of a story in which the McCain campaign was going to announce that they had rescued some 12,000 American flags -- Old Glory -- that they had found, essentially packed up for disposal at the Invesco Field in Denver, in the wake of the Democratic National Committee -- Convention last week.
Now, they said that they found these things near dumpsters, around dumpsters, as though they were going to be tossed out. And in fact, they were in over 84 green trash bags, literally 12,000 of these types of flags. Well, they distributed them at the rally today, and Democrats were booed when the assertion was made from the podium that they were essentially being mishandled and thrown away -- throwing away Old Glory.
Well, the Democratic National Committee Convention's public affairs official, Damon Jones, has now put out a statement that completely changes the tenor of this story. It reads, quote, "American flags were proudly waved by 75,000 people who joined Barack Obama at the Democratic Convention. John McCain should applaud that, but instead, his supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play out a cheap political stunt, calling into question our patriotism. On the same day he agrees to join Barack Obama at Ground Zero on September 11, John McCain attacks the patriotism of Obama supporters who so proudly waved the American flag at our historic event in Denver just days ago."
And that's from Damon Jones, the spokesperson for the convention. Translation: Democrats are saying Republicans stole their flags. And they weren't throwing them out, they were sending them back to the manufacturer for redistribution. They were going to appropriately handle them, and they were absconded with for this display today.
He said, she said, or he said, he said, in this case. Brian, it's the type of stuff that really throws major sand in the gears for this particular campaign.
WILSON: Well --
CAMERON: Republicans trying to mess up Democrats by saying that they're not appropriately dealing with the flag, and Democrats saying, wait a minute, you took them. Now, the issue about the joint appearance -- that's coming up this Thursday on the anniversary of September 11th. Barack Obama and John McCain will both appear together at a forum in New York City. So, that's what their reference to in the statement is, that is on their schedule, both of them together. Now comes the controversy over who took care of the flag and who didn't, Brian.
WILSON: Carl Cameron, the game is on, and that little gamesmanship going on about the American flag, we'll sort it all out and we'll try to get down to the bottom of it in the hours ahead. Thank you much, Carl.
[...]
GREGG JARRETT (co-host): All right, Carl, there's this controversy that seems to be swirling around involving flags. What is that all about?
CAMERON: Yeah, I'm sorry, Gregg, we've got a little bit of an audio problem, but I do want to tell you about a story that had sort of unfolded here at the Colorado Springs rally today. In the run-up to the appearance of Senator McCain and Sarah Palin, the organizers and volunteers unloaded some 12,000 small American flags -- here's the type we're talking about.
They say that they were found by a vendor at Invesco Field up in Denver -- where the Democrats had their convention last week --prepared for disposal. Some, they say, were actually in dumpsters. Well, the Democratic camp -- the Democratic National Committee has now put out a statement saying that they weren't mishandling these flags, that they weren't being tossed out. They essentially argue that they were pilfered, and there's a statement that says, quote, "American flags were proudly waved by the 70,000 people who joined Barack Obama at the Democratic Convention. John McCain should applaud that, but instead, supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play out a cheap political stunt, calling into question our patriotism."
The allegation here, Gregg, is that the Democrats are saying Republicans swiped the flags and then claimed that the Democrats were going to be throwing them out. A back-and-forth, a back-and-forth all over how best to take care of Old Glory and right now, the Republicans say, look, this stuff was in dumpsters; Democrats said, basically, they were ripped off.
JARRETT: Yeah, well, if that was true, it would be a pretty nefarious plan.
The flag is a symbol. And lately it's only used for pseudo-patriots to wrap themselves in.
that comment couldn't have been from a democrat.. they just throw them in dumpsters and trash bags by the thousands after they wipe their butts with them at their conventions. :D
What a dishonest punk. That false meme has already been disproven and yet you still try to push it? You're the poster child for the failure of 'No child left behind', aren't you?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/thrown-away-flags-story-f_n_124499.html
But according to a senior official involved in organizing the Democratic convention, the McCain camp is simply lying about the flags.
"All of the flags at Invesco were picked up and put in bags and into storage, along with the unused flags and campaign signs. The flags were going to be donated, and the signs were going to be sent out to be used elsewhere," the official said, speaking anonymously since he was not authorized to talk to the press.
Fox News' Carl Cameron and Bonney Kapp reported that they had "been told" that "a vendor at Invesco Field found the flags, which were going to be thrown out, and turned them over to the McCain campaign."
The Democratic convention official says that's not true.
"It's pretty reprehensible on their part," he said. "Someone made an assumption, took the flags, and essentially lied about what was going to happen to them. I mean, c'mon, we were never ever going to throw out flags."
Emails to three McCain spokespersons inquiring where the flags were found and how the McCain campaign obtained them were not returned.
UPDATE: DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney issues a statement: "American flags were proudly waved by the 75,000 people who joined Barack Obama at the Democratic Convention. John McCain should applaud that, but instead his supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play a cheap political stunt calling into question our patriotism. On the same day he agrees to join Barack Obama at Ground Zero on September 11, John McCain attacks the patriotism of Obama supporters who so proudly waved the American flag at our historic event in Denver just days ago."
UPDATE II: Another statement from the Democratic National Convention Committee: "Stories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false. We distributed more than 125,000 American made flags at the Convention - the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission. It's disappointing that someone would take American flags without authorization and then falsely describe how they were being used. We have the utmost respect for the American flag, and it's sad to see them being used for a cheap political stunt."
"What you see in the picture I sent you is less than half of total flags," a Republican official emailed. "We estimate the total number to be around 12,000 small flags and one full size 3×5 flag."
This is the photo from the Denver post. If this is the one the GOP rep. emailed to the Post, then it doesn't look like half of 12,000 flags, nor does this look small , or discarded flags. It looks like each bag holds about 10-12 flags?
They are all carefully rolled and packed for storage or transportation...that is until they were piled up against the wall in the back the floor.
"Supporters at the McCain rally said there were about 12,000 flags in 10 garbage bags."
Okay...tell me how there can be 12,000 flags in those 10 garbage bags in the photo?
KKTV.com poster...someone who was at the DNC:
Posted by: janet Location: springs on Sep 6, 2008 at 09:10 PM
all sorts of stuff was in roll off containers afterwards at invesco field....bottles of vitamin water, bottled water etc...i saw the roll off containers with leftovers piled high and none of it looked as if it was headed to the trash. it looked like organized bins to collect just what these items were 'leftovers'. sounds like this man helped himself to something he should not have helped himself to-when the flags were passed out at invesco they were also delivered to each section in trash bags so his assumption that they were trash is not true.
Actually there were a huge number of flags passed out.
What I wonder about, is the 10 trash bags that contained 12,000 of them. It looks like maybe 10-12 flags in a bundle, and maybe 10 bundles per bag.
Why wasn't the man who took the flags identified...is it because he removed things that could get him into trouble, such as other DNC supplies waiting for transport, and where is the proof that everything sat there for a week in the area of the trash? There are far to many unanswered question, and discrepancies.
Cable news has been NON-STOP talking about McCain's "bump" or "surge" over Obama in the polls. Could this be another news barage to silence the GOP flag story failure?
“Stories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false. We distributed more than 125,000 American made flags at the Convention - the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission. It’s disappointing that someone would take American flags without authorization and then falsely describe how they were being used. We have the utmost respect for the American flag, and it’s sad to see them being used for a cheap political stunt.”
– Democratic National Convention Committee
Here's the question that occurs to me: how many delegate were at the DNC? Maybe 4000 or a few more? Then why would there be 12,000 "leftover" flags?
Because these were at Invesco Field for Barack Obama's acceptance speech, where there were much more people in attendance that the 4,000 delegatges at the Pepsi Center.
I wouldn't be surprised if they bought flags in a round number - 84,000, 7000 dozen. Then, they'd have 12,000 left if only 72,000 people showed up. Or maybe they bought 100,000, and several thousand people took two flags, and so they gave out 88,000 flags to 75,000 people and had 12,000 left over.
yeah, it's just a picture they got of flags.
Let's see pics of them in those dumpsters. But hey, that's called evidence, and who needs that these days?
Seattle Times...
At the McCain rally:
"We want to find good homes for these flags," Caplis said as veterans carrying plastic garbage bags full of neatly rolled flags distributed them."Apparently these are the rolled up flags in the bags in the photo I posted. How many photos are there of trash bags with rolled up flags. As I posted above, someone posted a message on kkTV.com that the flags were distributed to each section of the convention in trash bags...so the 10 bags were unused, like the cases of water, etc. also stacked in the roll off containers.
I meant to say "It looks like each bag holds about 10-12 flag bundles.".....maybe 100+ flags per bag?
The wood posts and flags look pretty large if you compare them with the background chairs, and trash bag size...you can almost count the wood in each bundle. How can there be 6,000 flags here....or a little less than half of 12,000 as the GOP official said who emailed the photo and information to the Denver Post?
If there are aprox. 100+ flags per bag, and 10 trash bags, wouldn't 1,200 flags be more accurate. Are they exagerating the numbers as well?
Does it strike anyone as odd that "fair and balanced" Fox assumed what the Obama campaign would say but gave no indication it asked anyone for a response before running the story several times?
No, I didn't it would.
No, I didn't it would.
Drat/ That, of course, was supposed to read "No, I didn't think it would."
(Flag-waving conservative) "You've got a picture of some terra-ist loving anti-'Murikan commie signing his name to a flag!"
"That guy should be hanged!"
"It's...George Bush?"
"Err...um...never mind...."
(Shuffles off stage right)
My favorite is this:
"They say that they were found...in some storage areas that looked as though they were being prepared for being discarded." Yeah, because "storgage" and "garbage" are synonymous.Nice try, now try the truth
Here is the TRUTH about them from The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_10398830
Update: I just spoke with the person at Invesco who found the flags. He thinks both sides are exaggerating a bit. He claims the majority of the bags with flags were near the trash and it was probably an "oversight" by the Democrats rather than a nefarious plot against the flag, but he doesn't believe anyone was coming to get them. "The flags were there for a week and a day and no one came looking for them," the person said.
Now, what is closer to the the truth, the Rep story that they were "trash" or the Dems story that "we were saving them and they were stolen"
"Near the trash" isn't "in" the trash.
Forgotten is not equivalent to disrespected.
It's clear whose version is accurate and reliable, and whose story is a fabrication to make Dems look bad and unpatriotic.
"The story is--Republicans found (and actually stole) 12,000 flags in Denver that were thrown in the trash.
Really? Because I saw the pictures that Red State's Erick Erickson published. There were paper, cloth, or vinyl "mini-flags" that were waved by participants in the excitement of the event. While these are "flags," I see them as symbols of actual flags.
An actual flag--and I say this as someone who has actually served in ceremonies where Veterans have been rendered funeral honors--is the kind of flag you would use to properly cover a casket or one that you would fly appropriately from a flagpole. That is the actual "flag" one would take to the VFW or to the appropriate agency for honorary burning or retirement. That flag is quite distinct in its value, it's symbolism, and its significance from a 3 inch by 5 inch paper American flag on a nine inch stick waved at a parade. If your loved one was buried under a flag that was appropriately folded and presented, would that flag be more valuable than the vinyl flag that adorns someone's car on the freeway? In terms of how each actually functions, yes, indeed. ALL flags are symbols of the country; some flags are, indeed, more valued than others. There's the actual flag, then there are representations and symbols of the thing itself."
http://www.theygaveusarepublic.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=399
I saw many newspaper inserts with Fourth of July sales ads in them, and there were American Flags everywhere in those ads.
And they were simply thrown away. In god-fearin' gun totin' GOP households, too.
The terraist bastards!
You mean as opposed to taking care of the actual country?
You think we're all stupid don't you? You think we can create broad prosperity, bring about effective government and a smarter defense plan....if we just hyperventilate about the unknown fate of 12,000 carefully rolled flags?
I think these Republican distractions are proof that you guys are utterly, pathetically out of ideas.
They should take a little more care of the flags though. If something is important to you, you don't forget it.
What I've actually read recently is that the flags were taken within a day or two of the end of the convention.
Some vendor saw flags stored in black plastic bags, thought they were trash, and took them, then relayed that message to some GOP operatives and FoxNews.
They weren't trash, they weren't in the trash, they weren't to be thrown away. They were stolen, taken without permission from the rightful owners, and then used as propoganda.
Just another example of the hypocrisy of the righties. Don't have evidence of Dems disrespecting the flag? Then use the flag in a hypocritical way to pretend that the Dems don't respect the flag!
If something is important to you, then you should take care of it?
If you really believe that, why do you hate the Constitution?
Come on, now. They've heard their candidate's plan for the economy.
You can't blame them for practicing what they think will soon be a valuable skill.
I was a Boy Scout, and lying is counter to our oath.
- Scout Oath -
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
- Scout Law -
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent.
My money's on the Boy Scouts of America and VFW.
I was a boyscout, too. I don't remember ever dumpster diving for Presidential campaigns. I must have missed out on that badge.
I don't believe that the Scouts or VFW claimed to have found the flags in the trash.
Accepting what you are told by GOP party leaders doesn't (necessarily) make you dishonest.
THey don't even CLAIM to have found the flags "in the trash". THe bags, it seems, were NEAR where trash is sometimes accumulated. Their clue should have been that the flags were neatly rolled. Nobody "neatly rolls" trash. They stole the flags, illegal and nefarisous and they lied about what they "presumed" was being done, all PERFECT for rightwing propagandists.
Rightwingers simply cannot be trusted to be honest or honorable.
I agree Tex...I noted the neatly rolled flags point earlier with the Denver Post photo of the rolled flag.
Also, someone who attended the DNC, posted on a local TV web site that those rolloff carts were stacked-filled with extra supplies from the convention ...cases of bottled water and other convention props and supplies, and that the rolled flags were dristributed to each section rolled up in trash bags, as the McCain campaign showed them.
Maybe what they need to ask the person who found the flags, if he knows anything about other unused convention supplies with them.
You are correct...an unidentified man has been quoted in numerous news sources as being the one who found them near the trash area in a rolloff cart. McCain news stories say that he used veterans and Boy Scouts to carry the flags on to McCain's rally stage.
(And someone who says they attended the DNC posted on a TV site that the rolloff carts were stacked with overstock of DNC supplies.)
no, storage is synonomous with "dumpster" in post-democratic convention revisionism. lol
It's fallen to this, the care and feeding of an abandoned America flag? Who's voting based on this type of insubstantial pap?
Democrats dump flags! Now vote GOP so you can continue paying $500 a month for health insurance that promises to pay you squat if you get sick, so we can keep shoveling good money after bad in Iraq, and, if all goes well, implode the economy to ultimate ruin!
Good luck with that.
Randy
That right there should tell you all you need to know. Thats a Bush statement if I ever heard one! The deciders decide, and you dingbats must follow along drinking koolaid like there is no tomorrow, cuz you know what....there might not be a tomorrow if these guys get elected!
"We run the country, not you!"...will be their next statement.
Make those punks eat their own shit.
Ah, I almost forgot -- we're talking about Fox News, aren't we. What does that have to do with "journalism"?
I love being the bearer of the cold hard truth: it's a piece of cloth... cloth, wove (or stitched) variously by fibers (or other cloths) dyed red and white and blue.
True.
Carl Cameron was really hoping to hold up a bloody fetus...he really was.
Carl Cameron was really hoping to hold up a bloody fetus...he really was.
I couldn't care less about the flags themselves. Here is the TRUTH about them from The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_10398830
Update: I just spoke with the person at Invesco who found the flags. He thinks both sides are exaggerating a bit. He claims the majority of the bags with flags were near the trash and it was probably an "oversight" by the Democrats rather than a nefarious plot against the flag, but he doesn't believe anyone was coming to get them. "The flags were there for a week and a day and no one came looking for them," the person said.
Now, what is closer to the the truth, the Rep story that they were "trash" or the Dems story that "we were saving them and they were stolen"
The truth is that obviously Fox news is trolling for any story that portrays the democrats as America hating dangerous elements of our victimized and emperiled nation.
This election can be summed up as a contest between the patriotic virtious good guys and the flag hating terrorist lovers. What more do you need to know. Election over.
Along with pressuring Obama to admit that the surge is the best thing since sliced bread, Obama will now be pressured to confess that he really hates the flag and uses it as a muslim prayer rug on the dirty ground when he is not burning it at the midwestern chapter of Al quieda, northern illinois branch fundraisers.
If they were sitting out for someone else to retrieve, even if that someone else had forgotten about them (not saying that happened, mind you), and then someone else not entitled to them took them, they were stolen.
It's not a twisting by anyone else to say that they were stolen. They were stolen.
They people who took them didn't have rightful ownership rights to the flags. They weren't in the dumpsters. Close to the trash is not in the trash. They were stolen, and then there was a false meme put out that the Dems were disrespecting the flag.
Wow, no wonder you people love Bill Clinton so much. That sounds so much like the definition of what "is" is
Near the trash IS trash, it is NOT storage. Tell me you have never had something too big to fit in your trashcan and you put it nearby expecting the trashman to remove it.
With every wingnut critque Bill looks better and better.
Ready for another round of lets bail out some finacial institutions? Corporate Welfare HHHOOOOO!!! Isn't socialism wonderful for business?
Maybe the bigger point is, why is this even relevant to anyone. Do you really believe, as apparently Fox news wants you to believe, that the democrats represent the flag hating America destroying half of our country?
How is this even a story?
OH I get it. Obama and his hench men hate America and the flag. When no one was looking they had their thugs destroy a bunch of flags, just for the joy of it. Too bad they got caught and thank God Fox news is informing us of this. Fox now needs to stay on the story to prevent the cover up!
What a dishonest punk you are.
Near the place where trash is found is not equivalent to in the trash.
And it was plastic bags used to hold the flags - how is a bag full of flags unable to be placed inside a dumpster at a convention center?
What a dishonest punk you are, to suggest that being stored near a place where trash is placed is equivalent to in the trash, and that it might just be that these bags wouldn't fit into a dumpster that's 8' x 8' by 6'!!!
Trash is put into plastic bags ALL THE TIME! What do you think hefty bags are! Do you know if the dumpster was empty? Do you know how many bags are needed to hold a few thousand flags? Do you think ANYONE storing something would put it anywhere NEAR trash?
Nice job on the insult though, you are a real class act.
Bblonde's rant is called "moral euivocating".. "next to dumpsters in trash bags do not indicate they are considered trash"... it trickles down... "Russian agression= Georgia needs to have its international sovereignity violated" as per Obama's first commentary.. e.g. "Billy .. say you're sorry for calling your sister ugly.. "yes Mom.. I'm sorry you're ugly and she said I smell bad"")
It's all a mental smoke and mirrors game the liberals play to allow them to accept two incongruous ideas as true as long as it supports their ideology...
It was pointed out earlier, the flags were unused stock...they were distributed to each convention section rolled up in the trash bags.
I'm curious why the identity of the man who found them near the trash, is unknown, and why no more questions were asked of him....such as what other unused convention supplies did he discover near the trash area.
You are a dishonest punk. I didn't insult you. It's your own fault you're a dishonest punk, not mine.
You were talking about how perhaps the bags were too big to fit in the trash - that's crazy talk. A place like that doesn't have a shortage of space for trash. It's a convention center.
How is my saying PERHAPS being dishonest?
You make less sense each time.
You're like a dog chasing car tires and you're gonna get your ass run over because you aren't paying attention to anything but that spinning Republican white wall.
You go ahead and whine about some flags that PERHAPS were neglected, meanwhile, we will be looking for real solutions to real problems. Take your eyes off the prize while the grassroots progressives are rallying around the fight to bring guaranteed healthcare for all to America. Catch the vapors while we fight for better wages and the right to unionize free from the intimidation of corporate conservative thugs. You go ahead faint while we move to transition from a fatal, centralized big money oil economy to an independent network of sustainable green collar jobs that keep Americans employed and competitive right here in the U.S. You just knock yourself out obsessing over your fears, while we take clear, pragmatic measures that will ensure long term national security.
Go ahead and keep complaining about our house, while you jokers can't even project the right images of Walter Reed behind your doddering, extremist pandering presidential candidate promises more of the same for the next four years.
Go ahead and vote for more war, slave labor and religious extremism. I'm voting for change.
Tell me if you stored anything you wanted to keep anywhere near trash and left it there for a week.
Your politics have probably been near the gutter for much longer than that, and you're still trying to use tham.
Tell me if you stored anything you wanted to keep anywhere near trash.
Your point makes no sense.
Actually yes, an outdoor table that I wanted to "throw" out.
Its been NEXT to the trash for over a month, and it's still sitting there.
Guess if it had been a flag the trash people would have picked it up!
"Near the trash IS trash"
Wonderful logic! Can't get away from it...everytime you drop something in your trash can you are NEAR THE TRASH, therefore...by your own logic...YOU ARE TRASH.
Thanks for admitting it.
Wow, just wow. You are near trash briefly when you deposit trash. If you STAY by trash for a week, never moving, then yes, you are trash.
"If you STAY by trash for a week, never moving, then yes, you are trash."
My trash can is right beside my pantry, and has been for years. Does that mean everything in my pantry is trash? I don't think so.
Near Russia IS Russia.
Sarah Palin is a Communist.
Dear Miss Manners,
My refrigerator is no more than 5 feet from my trash in my kitchen. Does that fall outside the garbage zone, or will I have to toss my milk and ice cream? What is the minimum buffer zone for food? How about for toothbrushes? Also, if an item is inside a container which falls within the garbage zone, what is the minimum thickness - in mils - of the container material required for its contents to be classified non-refuse? Is the garbage zone radius in direct ratio to the size of the container (i.e. dumpster, trash can, wastebasket)?
I would appreciate your answer ASAP. My ice cream is melting, and my milk is slightly chunky.WHO CARES! WHAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THIS!
If this story is important for our election, then I guess the trimester progress and the marital status of Palin's daughter is also critical.... Which it is not. It has nothing to do with what kind of policies or leadership she would bring but it serves as tabloid gossip.
Anything anything anything but the issues. This is the United States, we decide election based on gossip and personal scandal.
Notice that every single new troll on the site lately misspells "lying" the exact same way?
They're all one person, or they're cutting and pasting from the same illiterate GOP talking points.
I loved this part.
The allegation here, Gregg, is that the Democrats are saying Republicans swiped the flags and then claimed that the Democrats were going to be throwing them out. A back-and-forth, a back-and-forth all over how best to take care of Old Glory and right now, the Republicans say, look, this stuff was in dumpsters; Democrats said, basically, they were ripped off.
The pretense is that it's simply a "he said, she said" moment. It's not. They were stolen by vandals. If they had been trash, then they would have already been picked up and hauled off - trash doesn't sit around for a week at venues like this. There's no evidence, and there's no common sense argument that can be made that supports the false meme the Republicans pushed. Yet even when the true story is known, FoxNews can't make themselves simply say "we were wrong, and we never should have assumed what we assumed." No, they act like there are two stories here, and both are potentially valid. They're not. But it's typical for FoxNews to claim they are both potentially valid.
Mercy, sounds like a set up job to me, apparently all the flags were not in one place either, some where in storage.
Also, if they were in the dumpster, don't you think there would be a picture of them in there?
Just sayin....
Here's what a local Fox affiliate said.
A political rally would also be incomplete without national news media present. Carl Cameron of FOX News arrived well before the candidates did, giving live updates to national viewers from a spot on the media risers. He broke the story to local reporters about flags said to be thrown away at the Democratic National Convention that would be shown in public at today's rally.
Boy Scouts and military veterans later carried dozens of plastic trash bags to the stage, the emcee telling the audience what was known of the flags' disposal after the Democratic National Convention in Denver two weeks ago. Bags were then opened and hundreds of these flags passed from front to back for the audience to wave.
The emcee told that audience 'what was known of the flags' disposal'? That's baloney. Carl Cameron came and pushed a false meme that they didn't even try to verify! It was done to rally the attendees at the campaign event. It was not a factual retelling of news. What hypocrites! Since when does a national news guy break 'gossip' that hasn't been verified? FoxNews didn't even try to verify the allegations before they forwarded them as evidence of the Dems disrespecting the flag.
Another attempt by the righties to obsess over flags. The Denver Post story was nothing but a report about what the finder of the flags claimed. The Democrats say they wanted to donate the flags that the Republicans took.
Since the Republicans have no policies other than cutting taxes and gutting all government service but the military, they must deflect attention away from their coroporate give aways and runaway deficits. hence more flag bull pucky.
Mary, Isn't it odd that these rally flag Reepers will swoon and regurgitate the line that Cameron gave them. But when the truth comes out, they cannot face being played as fools, AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN, so they are forced to believe what they know are lies. And these people expect Independent voters to rally behind them?
How can these Republicans live with the constant lies of the Conservatives?? Republicans if you want to have a political party please get rid of the Cons....a dumpster would be a good idea.
Better Framing:
McCain Campaign makes Colorado Boy Scouts steal American flags from Inveco Field locked storage.
Short on funds, McCain Campaign gives their crowd American flags stolen from Denver Democratic Party.
Fox News celebrates theft and luring Colorado Scouts into felony charges. Dem's American-made flags more costly than those from China.
$6000 worth of flags = felony charges.
Wouldn't this work? If only Dems would stand up and bite back. Like demand Denver Police investigate felony theft.
McCain Campaign offocials charged as accomplices in theft of American flags from Invesco Field locked storage.
I can imagine one of the fox news anchors forgetting to take off their confederate stars and bars lapel pin before going on the air.
Note that the preceeding is an example of the kind of smear technique that certain elements of the media seem saturated with when it comes to anyone or anything that is not conservative. See I can do it too.
-- Samuel Johnson
*****NEWS FLASH*****
Seannie the Sissy will be holding rallys across America called "The Save the American Flag Tour". Tickets will be $100 each and it is suggested that you bring all of your family to show them how to SAVE THE FLAG from the hands of the evil democrat party. All monies collected will be used to pay some of our foremost Americans to speak at the rallys for about $50,000 per speech. Seannie the Sissy will speak at every stop along with Twinkle Toes Morris and Pumkinhead KKKarl Rove...hope everyone caught the 9/3 Daily Show clip of the goof saying that being a mayor of a city of 150,000 does not qualify you to be VicePresident.
Also, some of the proceeds will be funneled to help defray the expenses of the newly created Spiro Agnew School for Vice Presidential candidates.
It is an all womens' school taught by the best Conservative men in the business. The first graduating class of 1 will be in two weeks. Some of the courses are:
Other courses are available to those who are NOT POLITICIANS..but in this case, the student is a POLITICIAN.
So, please donate to the Sissy Tour so all of our objectives can be achieved.
Let's see...
McCain stole Heart's "Barracuda".
McCain stole Mellencamp's "Our Country".
McCain stole Jackson Brown's "Running on Empty".
McCain stole Van Halen's "Right Now".
McCain stole Solzhenitsyn's Cross In the Dirt story.
Cindy McCain stole Rachel Raye's chicken recipe.
Cindy McCain stole drugs.
And now you're worried about a few used-up flags?
Well I'm here to tell you THAT'S IT!!! I've HAD ENOUGH!!!!
I'm sitting down right now and writing them a check so that they can buy CD's and a paperback of Hemmingway's short stories and a big plaid Betty Crocker cookbook and some cough syrup. There is NO REASON that - in a society as prosperous as ours - these unfortunate people should be relegated to a life of crime just because they can't afford the basic needs.
I ask all my bleeding heart liberal friends to join me, to show that we on the left DO have compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves. Now I know how they feel about charity. So we'll just consider it a loan until they can get back on their feet.
Come on, you libs! Instead of sitting around here carping, get out your checkbooks and let's make a difference!
Good thinking, Col.
Especially now since APPARENTLY THE JINGOMETER PROJECT HAS BEEN 86'ED...
Problem is that this congress isn't extreme far-left enough (yet), and our new muslim Marxist president isn't in office, yet. So we have little chance of raising taxes to confiscatory levels right now. But, what the heck. I make enough off of my welfare checks and food stamps that I can afford to send the McCains a couple bucks. And if I need more, I'll just have the old lady crank out another rug rat to boost our income.
http://www.abcunderwear.com/flagcollection.html
Another example of the FOX TROT! Otherwise known as the GREEN APPLE QUICKSTEP.
You are really reaching to make up a story like this one...and its so funny, that these "flags were found by Boy Scout girls"...
Hummmm, Boy Scout Girls????? Something new????
Not real bright, are we Cameron?
amethyst
Only one "stole" in the commentary. The flags were "pilfered," the Democrats were "ripped off," the flags were "wrongfully taken."
I would appreciated the use of a strong, one-syllable words to describe the actions of McCain supporters: They stole flags from the Democratic convention and then lied about it.
You know, the more you talk about this and get worked up about it, the more you play into the hands of the Republican campaign since the whole point of the stunt was to get Obama's campaign and supporters to waste time trying to deny it.
Just sayin'
Sorry, but we disagree wholeheartedly that ignoring things like this is the right thing to do.
But feel free to ignore it yourself next time, and just don't comment at all.
We won't mind.