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NBC's Mitchell repeated falsehood that McCain campaign manager "has not been at all involved in anything involving Fannie or Freddie"

September 25, 2008 9:54 am ET

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SUMMARY: NBC News' Andrea Mitchell falsely asserted that McCain campaign manager Rick Davis "has not been at all involved in anything involving Fannie or Freddie." In fact, Davis reportedly served as president of the Homeownership Alliance, a Washington-based advocacy group whose founding members included Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

101 Comments

In an interview about reports that a firm owned by Sen. John McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis, was paid $15,000 a month by mortgage finance company Freddie Mac, NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell falsely asserted that Davis "has not been at all involved in anything involving Fannie or Freddie." After making this assertion during the September 24 segment on MSNBC Live, Mitchell asked McCain adviser Nancy Pfotenhauer about Davis' firm's contract with Freddie Mac: "Can you guarantee the voters -- the American people -- that even though Rick Davis has not taken any money, and you say has not lobbied, that he will not sometime in the future benefit from money that has gone to his firm, in which he still has a partnership interest?" In fact, Davis has reportedly "been ... involved in [something] involving" Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; several media outlets have reported that Davis previously served as president of the Homeownership Alliance, a Washington-based advocacy group whose founding members included Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which Media Matters for America has noted.

Citing "current and former officials," The New York Times reported on September 21 that Davis "was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of" the Homeownership Alliance, "an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations." The Times reported:

The [McCain campaign] spokesman, Tucker Bounds, also noted that the Homeownership Alliance included nonprofit organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Urban League. "It's not controversial to promote homeownership and minority homeownership," Mr. Bounds said. More than a half-dozen current and former executives, however, said the Homeownership Alliance was set up mainly to defend Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by promoting their role in the housing market, and the two companies paid almost the entire cost of the group's operations.

From the 1 p.m. ET hour of the September 24 edition of MSNBC Live:

MITCHELL: The campaign has come out again today very aggressively against The New York Times. Now, The New York Times was not alone, it was Newsweek and Roll Call reporting on, at least, payments made to campaign manager Rick Davis' firm. And you've pointed out, the campaign, you have pointed out that Rick Davis did not lobby, did not take money from the firm --

PFOTENHAUER: Right.

MITCHELL: -- has not been at all involved in anything involving Fannie or Freddie. Can you guarantee, you know, the voters -- the American people -- that even though Rick Davis has not taken any money, and you say has not lobbied, that he will not sometime in the future benefit from money that has gone to his firm, in which he still has a partnership interest?

PFOTENHAUER: Well, you know, Andrea, you, at least, are presenting it evenhandedly. Rick never lobbied for Fannie and Freddie, and let's -- you know, I don't think they reported the story, I think they engaged in activist journalism that's more of The Huffington Post caliber than certainly should be expected from a major newspaper outlet.

The story is that Rick never took any money from Fannie, never lobbied for Fannie and Freddie, and that John McCain actively fought for reform, versus Barack Obama, who took record-number amounts of money from Fannie and Freddie, and looked the other way on reform. That -- you know, that's the story. And as far as potentially benefiting in the future, the McCain campaign has the highest level of standards ever applied in presidential election history that precludes us -- lobbyist involvement in any potential future benefit. And we've challenged the Obama campaign repeatedly to comply by the same rules and procedures. They won't do it, and they won't release their list of advisers, even though they acknowledge there are lobbyists on that list.

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    • Author by Caseysprings (September 25, 2008 9:58 am ET)
         
      Andrea Mitchell should start discussing what her husbands role is in this mess.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 10:13 am ET)
         

      Mitchell: Rick Davis did not lobby, did not take money from the firm

      Well, technically, I have not taken money from my bank account recently.... but the money's still mine.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:20 pm ET)
           

        Governor, off topic, but for you. I only hope no (further) hate crimes are commited from this.

        http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20228603,00.html

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 12:38 pm ET)
             

          How topical.

          Obama effigy found hanging on Ore. Campus
          http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-27/1222271341169900.xml&storylist=orlocal

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (September 25, 2008 12:41 pm ET)
               

            Looks like another dirty trick by Democratic operatives ! ( I didn't see Barney Fife around, thought I'd pick up his slack)

            Report Abuse
            • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 12:45 pm ET)
                 

              Got to be. I mean, good Christian students wouldn't do anything like that would they? Bearing in mind KKK members are evangelical Christians and all. What I think would be funny, is if they actually realized for a minute that Jesus Christ was Jewish, and probably looked like Jeff Goldblum as opposed to some light haired, chiseled, blue eyed adonis.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:47 pm ET)
               

            Good Lord. You can NOT be serious.

            I didnt catch the part about how the New Yorker or EW covers were found nearby as solid proof of the direct influence they played in this heinous act.

            AND you do realize you're now saying that both Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are accesories as well, right?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 12:50 pm ET)
                 

              I don't know what you're talking about.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:52 pm ET)
                   

                Maybe you're not serious. If not, my bad. BUT you responded to my link of the EW cover with a link about a Obama hate crime.

                Report Abuse
      • Author by peebs755 (September 25, 2008 3:49 pm ET)
           

        Actually Davis was hired as a consultant, not a lobbiest. (sp?) That would explain why he didn't do any "Lobbying" for Fannie or Freddie. Look over here, not over there.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by newzhound (September 25, 2008 10:18 am ET)
         
      There's no "reportedly" that Mr. Davis was president of the Homeownership Alliance. Or that Freddie Mac was a "founding member." This - from the Freddie Mac website (archive it now! It may not be here long) proves it: http://www.freddiemac.com/news/features/stories/20051114_homeownership.html
      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (September 25, 2008 11:33 am ET)
           

        Thanks for that link.  Here's some information from the linked page:

        "Cities across the country are taking action to make housing more affordable for American families, according to a report released by The Homeownership Alliance, a coalition of almost 20 organizations committed to ensuring support for the American housing system of which Freddie Mac is a charter member. The report, Affordable Homes: Best Practices for America, is a survey of affordable homeownership programs in the top 20 municipalities nationwide."...

        “Making a real difference is going to take a cooperative effort,” said Homeownership Alliance President Rick Davis. “We hope this report will spark a much-needed dialogue on affordable housing programs.” ...

        Homeownership has been a cornerstone of the country’s economic strength throughout the past decade. “State and local governments nationwide must expand their efforts to ensure that every family in America has the opportunity to own a home,” said Davis. “The more Americans we have owning homes, the stronger our economy and the greater the benefit.”

         This would all be great if the real goal wasn't profits for speculators and wall street investors. 

        Report Abuse
      • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 11:53 am ET)
           

        Here's some more info <--(link!). Regulatory filings indicate Davis is still an officer for his lobbying firm.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by wolf kotenberg (September 25, 2008 10:24 am ET)
         
      her husband, Mr Greenspan, got out befor ethe SHF ( Sit Hit the Fan ) for he knew where his tax policy was going. Bush wasn't so lucky, the SHF before he leaves office and now he has egg in the face. And by the way, i watched that " interview " yesterday and mitchell let this woman get away with flat out lying to the camera, and she knew it all along. McCain might go down in flames again, for the second time.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 10:26 am ET)
         

      And just because his firm continued to accept bribe money from freddy and fannie up until last month means nothing, right?

      McLame has become an unhinged loon. What else will he cancel whenever a crisis looms?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by JLyons (September 25, 2008 10:30 am ET)
           

        I wonder if McCain will make a statement to ask Bush to declare Marshall Law, cancel the election and remain President until the Economic Crisis is over.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (September 25, 2008 10:46 am ET)
             

          Declaring Marshall Law would be awesome, but I think Grampy would just yell at

           him to turn it down.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by wolf kotenberg (September 25, 2008 10:34 am ET)
           

        I am really concerned if the other guy declares a national emergency and delays the election. I want to see Obama show up to the debate and answer questions, who cares if McCain cancels his appearance. Makes a joke out of his fighter pilot record and his " scars of 26 years in Cogress ". I wept with joy when i saw the television images of our POW's coming off the C141 and rejoined with their families. How times have changed when you sell yourself to the political machinery..

        Report Abuse
        • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 10:52 am ET)
             

          Letterman called it right last night. You don't cancel your campaign because you're losing, you put in your 2nd string quarterback! Let Palin campaign while he's "in washington fixing the crisis". For him to not put her in only proves that she's woefully incompetant and really is not ready to lead.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 10:54 am ET)
               

            McCain-Palin will go down as the worst ticket ever.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 11:01 am ET)
                 

              Even Barney Frank has something to say! BTW, why is McLame spending $5,500 on a makeup artist? Isn't that "elite"?

              Frank says that House and Senate Democrats have agreed upon what should be in the Wall Street bailout legislation.  This morning Frank, his Senate counterpart -- Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, D-Conn. -- and top Republicans will meet to try to hammer out a final agreement. He was optimistic.

              “All of a sudden, now that we’re on the verge of making a deal, John McCain drops himself in to make a deal," Frank said. "I really worry about this politicization of it."

              "Frankly, we’re going to have to interrupt a negotiating session tomorrow between the Democrats and Republicans on a bill, where I think we’re getting pretty close, and troop down to the White House for their photo-op, and then come back and get on to it," Frank said.

              “We’re trying to rescue the economy, not the McCain campaign,” he added.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by peebs755 (September 25, 2008 1:18 pm ET)
                 

              No, first (or last depending how you look at it) place still goes to Bush/Cheney. How they stole both elections makes them worst in my mind. McCain/Palin is a very close second, though they've still got time to make their mark and claim first. (or last depending how you look at it)  

              Report Abuse
          • Author by wolf kotenberg (September 25, 2008 11:05 am ET)
               

            Didn'r McSkip do a Couric interview at the same exact time he was scheduled on Letterman ?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 11:10 am ET)
                 

              he sure did, and letterman knew it.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (September 25, 2008 11:24 am ET)
                 

              I heard that, Wolf. Didn't see the show, but heard it on the radio, that Letterman got a live feed of Grampy chewing the fat with Couric at the exact time he was unable to be on Letterman because he was rushing off to DC to fix things.

              BTW, anybody have clarification on who's really demanding McCain's help? I saw Grampy's spokeswoman Ms. Hossenpfeffer (sp) insisting that Harry Reid was calling for Grampy's help, while others were saying that McCain would have no direct involvement with the commitees responsible for finalizing anything.

              What's the real scoop?

              Report Abuse
              • Author by pete592 (September 25, 2008 11:30 am ET)
                   

                Who better to have as a last minute, fill-in guest than Keith Olbermann?  To have Keith sitting there trying to contain himself as Dave went right at McCain during the live shot of McCain and Couric was nothing less than great TV.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by JLyons (September 25, 2008 11:54 am ET)
                     

                  Conan had a funny joke about this

                  In last night's monologue, Conan O'Brien may have captured the irony of replacing McCain with Olbermann most pointedly with this joke:

                  "Yesterday the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, challenged John McCain to a debate," Conan said. "McCain says if he wanted to be attacked by an extremist in an unfair environment, he'd appear on MSNBC."

                  Report Abuse
              • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 11:36 am ET)
                   

                Col., see my post above from Barney Frank. No one is calling for McLame, it's nothing but a photo op distraction to try and save a failing campaign and to delay the first debate which is on foreign policy. McCain thinks that's his strong suite, if he stuck with friday his points would most likely be drowned out by continued talk about the financial crisis.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (September 25, 2008 11:42 am ET)
                     

                  Thanks Snoop, I got Frank's take on it, as well as others confirming what I thought, I was just wondering where Pfotenhauer got her take that other members of Congress were putting out the bat signal for McCain.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 11:53 am ET)
                       

                    I've yet to read or hear a Republican member of Congress applaud McCain's latest Counrty First act of heroism.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 11:57 am ET)
                       

                    I think you'll find this quite interesting <--(link!), especially Gingrich's take on it. And I see some republicans are already following his advice...



                    As you can see on the CNN.com Quick Vote, 71% of voters think McCain's announcement is "a political gimmick" and 24% see it as an actual effort to help the economy. Newt Gingrich sees it as an opportunity for Republican incumbents to worm out of debates and is urging congressional candidates to follow McCain's lead, something many have been doing anyway, trying their best to avoid answering embarrassing questions about rubber stamp voting records and huge "donations" from Big Oil and Big Banks followed by votes that clearly helped Big Oil and Big Banks and hurt average Americans-- and average American voters.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 12:19 pm ET)
                         

                      Can't really trust those internet polls, because they're not really scientific, and one person can vote many times, but it is a little telling. Senator McCain "suspending" his campaign to wing his way back to Washington to help "fix" things is a joke, and I do think that most of the American public knows that it is a joke. How does Senator McCain propose to help out the folks hammering out this bail out, when he serves on the following committees in the Senate:

                      Armed Services (where he is the ranking member)
                      Commerce, Science, and Transportation
                      Indian Affairs

                      Commerce, maybe, but then again, really not so much.

                      I mean, this is a pure political move on his behalf. It reminds me of the last season of The West Wing, where the Alan Alda character who was running for President as a Republican, went back into the Senate to write up and pass some legislation to make him look better, and to improve his record.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (September 25, 2008 12:49 pm ET)
                         

                      And is that "Something else" 5% unable to come up with an opinion, or are they heartily approving in an Eddie Cochran way?

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by snoopy (September 25, 2008 12:08 pm ET)
                       

                    Also Col, looks like both republicans and democrats would rather McLame didn't show up <--(link!)...

                    But lawmakers on Capitol Hill are not enthusiastic about the presidential candidates injecting themselves. Time’s Jay Newton-Small reported last night that “leaders from the left and the right rejected the idea of McCain and Obama taking over the talks”:

                    But leaders from the left and the right rejected the idea of McCain and Obama taking over the talks. When asked by reporters if he wanted McCain sitting in blow-by-blow negotiations Rep. Adam Putnam, the No. 3 House Republican, simply smirked, mute for ten seconds as reporters laughed. Democrats were more voiciferous in their rejection of McCain-Obama negotiations; New York Senator Chuck Schumer and Rep. Jim Clyburn, the No. 3 House Dem, both said if McCain had really cared where have he — and his staff — been in the negotiations thus far.

                    Report Abuse
                • Author by peebs755 (September 25, 2008 1:48 pm ET)
                     

                  Rep. Frank said he didn't know why McCain was coming back to Washington. he's not on any of the comittittees(sp?) that deal with these issues. He wouldn't have any input or anything to do until said comittittees(sp?) are finished drafting their proposals.  

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (September 25, 2008 1:57 pm ET)
                       

                    And then McCain will stand alongside them as if he were responsible for its success.

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 12:21 pm ET)
                   

                I do like the recent republican spin on this disaster. They're blaming the democrats, mostly Frank and Dodd for the deregulation and the impending doom of our financial systems and markets.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by JLyons (September 25, 2008 12:23 pm ET)
                     

                  I do like the recent republican spin on this disaster. They're blaming the democrats, mostly Frank and Dodd for the deregulation and the impending doom of our financial systems and markets

                  If you listen to Sean Hannity, it is Bill Clinton and Janet Renos fault .

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 12:32 pm ET)
                       

                    Hey now. That's not accurate. It's been Bill Clinton's fault since Bush took the White House. Everything done during Bush's tenure as President has ALL been Clinton's fault, at least, that's what they'll tell you.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by peebs755 (September 25, 2008 1:49 pm ET)
                         

                      Everything bad anyway. They take Credit for anything good. (not that there's been much of that)

                      Report Abuse
          • Author by shaggles (September 25, 2008 11:13 am ET)
               

            What a great line.  I need to start watch Letterman again.

            Report Abuse
    • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 10:43 am ET)
         

      Good Bless the GOP sidekicks at NBC and MSNBC.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 10:46 am ET)
           

        *sneeze*

        Report Abuse
      • Author by wolf kotenberg (September 25, 2008 11:13 am ET)
           

        Dino Rossi, here in the state of Washington wants to change his GOP affiliation to Republican affiliation as shown on the ballot. It will cost the taxpayers of this state over 1 million dollrs to change the ballot. Bottom line, he doesn't want to be hog tied to the GOP lack of message/direction somehow thinking in his mind GOP is different than being a republican..

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mary59 (September 25, 2008 11:26 am ET)
             

          We get the Washington state news here in Oregon and Dino Rossi sounds about as good as the jug California wine. (not good)  He cost taxpayers enough money the last election contesting the voting since he lost by such a narrow margin to Christine Gregoire in the governor's race.  Gov. Gregoire has proven herself it seems to be competent and progressive.

          H hope Gov. Christine Gregoire cleans his clock this time.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by wolf kotenberg (September 25, 2008 11:28 am ET)
             

          clarification- Dino Rossi is running for governor of the state trying to unseat Governor Gregoire by stating things like Gregoire raising your gas tax when in reality it was voter approved, and not stating so.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by fmbanker87 (September 25, 2008 11:50 am ET)
         
      well, you are a bit off. the head of the fed has nothing to do with tax policy, he is all monetary policy.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by eweston8542983 (September 25, 2008 12:06 pm ET)
           

        Tax policy is a side issue to the financial situation.

        So he was helpless in the face of an unregulated and very large market, that was and continues to affect us in large ways? Would you say the same about a democratic analog/personnel? Probably you'd blast them and insist that only proper repulicans would be able to save us. 

        Report Abuse
    • Author by BillJ-MN (September 25, 2008 12:24 pm ET)
         

      Completely off topic, but funny.  Stewart and Colbert on the cover of Entertainment Weekly:

      stewart-colber-cover_l

      Report Abuse
      • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:29 pm ET)
           

        I just linked to that for Governor above. Brilliant isn't it?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 12:33 pm ET)
             

          And once again, Colbert and Stewart pretty much nail it.

          I'm starting to wonder if these 2 guys are probably the best news commentators we actually have on TV today.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:36 pm ET)
               

            I wonder how long it took Colbert to grow out his hair, AND this has been obviously photoshopped because Jon Stewart is way smaller than that.

            (And those "jokes" above are two reasons why I don't write for comedy TV.)

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 12:47 pm ET)
                 

              I don't get it.  Why exactly is satire of satire funny?

              Report Abuse
              • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:49 pm ET)
                   

                It shows how the current Presidential campaign and all of its absurdity has become ENTERTAINMENT. Its dead on, and hilarious.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 12:52 pm ET)
                     

                  The snake is eating its tail.  How droll.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 12:54 pm ET)
                       

                    For those with a sense of humor yes. For those without one, well, you're already screwed anyway, soooo....

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 1:01 pm ET)
                         

                      Don't get me wrong; I always get a chuckle when high-minded and very funny white people mock the notion of a kind of prejudice they themselves have never had to endure.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by magnolialover (September 25, 2008 2:38 pm ET)
                           

                        Isn't Stewart Jewish? I'm more than willing to bet that he's seen his fair share of prejudice.

                        You do understand that Stewart and Colbert are satirists, and they're poking fun at the campaign and everything in and around it don't you? And the original cover was still brilliant satire.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 2:45 pm ET)
                             

                          Yes, it wonderful satire of satire. Most blacks are not Muslim terrorists. Just wait until someone boldly satirizes the satire of the satire.  It’ll be awesome. 

                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                             

                          For someone to laugh at satire they have to actually comprehend it first. Unfortunately, this will never be the case for dear Governor.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 3:24 pm ET)
                               

                            http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-20-Poll-Obama_N.htm

                            1/3 of the Democrats polled here are not laughing the way might think, but they're probably laughing nonetheless.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 3:55 pm ET)
                                 

                              Thank you for literally proving my point.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 4:15 pm ET)
                                   

                                You're welcome.  I’ll provide metaphoric polls numbers as they become available.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 4:55 pm ET)
                                     

                                  No. Not your point, silly. Mine. That YOU simply do not get it.

                                  Correlation does not imply causation. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because there is racism, that is absolutely NO reason to say that this cover or any other satire will cause people to hang effigies of Obama. (Given your stand that satire causes violence, in regard to this most recent cover, one would have to say that BOTH Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are implicitly guilty in the hanging of the effigy.)

                                  To say so is, well, utterly absurd.

                                  And yet you say it. Again, and again, and again...

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 4:59 pm ET)
                                       

                                    What the bloody hell are you talking about?

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 5:30 pm ET)
                                         

                                      HA! Exactly. Thanks for proving my point even further.

                                      You remind me of another Governor, Governor, that one from Alaska...what's her name? Smart girl.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 6:12 pm ET)
                                           

                                        If I ever claimed that satire caused hate crimes, then I guess you'd have some kind of point here.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by watershed (September 25, 2008 9:22 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Did you think I actually wouldn't look?

                                          The cartoon depicts Muslims as anti-American terrorists.  Go ahaead and repeat why it does so (or somehow does not) and how it's ok because so-called conservatives created the unstated reason for this satire.  It still depicts Muslims as anti-American terrorists. Yes, it's depicting Muslims as anti-American terrorists only to make fun of unnamed people and media who use fear and lies to attack a presidential candidate, but still, it depicts Muslims as anti-American terrorists.

                                          I suspect that your nuance will be lost on the next red-blooded American who beats a Muslim American to within an inch their life.

                                          Please explain how these two direct quotes from you, Gov, don't fit into the assumption of mine that you think satire causes violence. You are a liar, or a fool, or perhaps and probably both.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 7:37 am ET)
                                               

                                            Please explain how these two direct quotes from you, Gov, don't fit into the assumption of mine that you think satire causes violence. You are a liar, or a fool, or perhaps and probably both.

                                            You can assume whatever you want. I never claimed that satire caused hate crimes.

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Brabantio (September 26, 2008 9:07 am ET)
                                                 

                                              The meaning of your comments is clear.  How is an unsupported denial any different from what Tommy does all the time?

                                              Stand by what you said or explain how you mean something different.  Anything else is dishonest.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 9:30 am ET)
                                                   

                                                I explained my position very clearly in the thread Watershed is quoting from.  My opinion of the New Yorker cover is that it did more to further rather than dispel the negative aspects it depicts.  Nowhere do I claim that satire causes hate crimes.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Brabantio (September 26, 2008 9:51 am ET)
                                                     

                                                  No, if that was all you were saying, then the "nuance" wouldn't make any difference in that one case.  Your phrasing makes it so that the assailant would not be committing a crime if he understood the nuance.  Otherwise it makes no sense at all.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 10:05 am ET)
                                                       

                                                    My phrasing states clearly that the assailant would not get the joke.  My assertion is that most Americans don't get the joke.  I do not think the satire works.  I think it fails.  For the sake of giving high-minded progressives a chuckle, a negative Muslim stereotype is furthered.  That was, is, and will remain my opinion.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Brabantio (September 26, 2008 10:18 am ET)
                                                         

                                                      Is the assailant someone inclined to commit a hate crime to begin with?  If so, then the nuance of the satire is completely irrelevant to their actions, and your comment makes no sense.  If they aren't so inclined, then the satire causes the hate crime.

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 10:29 am ET)
                                                           

                                                        The road to extreme bigotry is long and winding.  I’m simply opposed to the use of bigoted stereotypes even if used for the sake of satire.  You can have the last word, Councilor.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (September 26, 2008 10:39 am ET)
                                                             

                                                          I don't know what else needs to be said.  You supposedly explained your comment "very clearly" before, but can't answer simple questions now.  That pretty much covers it.

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:15 am ET)
                                                               

                                                            Governor, if you're still reading this thread, you are indeed a liar.

                                                            Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                            If not publishing inflammatory images that only serve to reinforce the racism and anti-Muslim stereotypes is somehow pandering, then fine, New Yorker should pander by not depicting Muslims as anti-American terrorists.

                                                            Oh, LOOK, more American satire...

                                                            FBI investigates whether Muslim man's shooting was a hate crime
                                                            Wednesday, June 25, 2008
                                                            James Ewinger
                                                            Plain Dealer Reporter

                                                            A family from Uzbekistan is trying to figure out why their husband and father was shot Friday night as he tried to buy gasoline in the same neighborhood where they run a small carryout restaurant.

                                                            Fazliddin Yakubov remained in critical condition Tuesday at MetroHealth Medical Center after he was shot three times in the stomach at a gasoline station at East 76th Street and Superior Avenue. One son who was with him was not injured.

                                                            FBI Special Agent Scott Wilson said the bureau is investigating and looking at the possibility that it could be a hate crime.

                                                            Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 3:22:07 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                            Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                            What in Gods name does that have to do with the New Yorker cover? How do you link the two with a straight face?

                                                            Surely, in America, you wouldn't ban ironic commentary?

                                                            Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 4:37:10 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                            Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                            What in Gods name does that have to do with the New Yorker cover? How do you link the two with a straight face?

                                                             The cover depicts Muslims as anti-American terrorists.  Why do you think that man was shot 3 times? 

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 11:22 am ET)
                                                                 

                                                              I'm not a liar.  That man was shot 3 times because the shooter viewed him as a terrorist.  And that crime took place before the New Yorker cover was published.  Stop being stupid.

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:26 am ET)
                                                                   

                                                                I'm not a liar.  That man was shot 3 times because the shooter viewed him as a terrorist.  And that crime took place before the New Yorker cover was published.  Stop being stupid.

                                                                Yes, and the reason why the cover wasn't wasn't a DIRECT factor, you said,  is because the "timing was off".

                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 11:33 am ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  I stand by each and every statement.  You are losing, or have lost, your mind.

                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:38 am ET)
                                                                       

                                                                    I've lost my mind? That sounds like a Tommy argument, Gov.

                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:43 am ET)
                                                                       

                                                                    Please re-iterate your statment, if you stand by it so, that the New Yorker cover could not be a direct factor in that particular hate crime only because the "timing was off". Please elaborate. If the hate crime "timing" was right, then...?

                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 8:43 pm ET)
                                                                         

                                                                      Final word. Censorship is an issue that obviously matters to me. AND you seem to ostensibly be fighting for the right side. Otherwise I wouldn't be trying so hard.

                                                                      Governor, unfortunately for all liberals, you represent the worst that supposed "cliche" liberal thinking can provide. You actually would rather the nation conform to YOUR personal views of right and wrong, rather than dare expose those that you obviously consider to be less educated than you to something that might challenge their own views of right and wrong. And by doing so, you condescend to the people you think you deign help.

                                                                      Where do YOU get the nerve to believe that you can dictate to a nation of millions about what they should read? Because, if you really think about it, that is exactly what you're doing. 

                                                                      I hope you can really think about what I'm trying to say to you, and that you won't just come back with a "you're insane" cop out response.

                                                                      Gov- Trust the people. Don't cater to them.

                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                      • Author by Governor (September 27, 2008 10:47 am ET)
                                                                           

                                                                        I'm the worst?  For expressing my opinion that that satire sucked?  That is my opinon and I stand by it.  I never once called for censorship, you paranoid fool. 

                                                                        Report Abuse
                                                                        • Author by watershed (September 27, 2008 1:03 pm ET)
                                                                             

                                                                          Again a cop out insult response to a pretty sincere post, and another couple flat out lies to boot. Oh, well. Good luck with all that.

                                                                          Report Abuse
                                                                          • Author by Governor (September 27, 2008 2:07 pm ET)
                                                                               

                                                                            Cop out? How?  My OPINION is that that was and remains a pathetic piece of satire.  It used racial sterotypes to mock racial sterotypes.  Why on earth can't you hadle my very clearly stated opinion?  I never said they should not be allowed to do it and I have a right to voice my take on it.  Period.

                                                                            Report Abuse
                                                                          • Author by Governor (September 27, 2008 2:11 pm ET)
                                                                               

                                                                            And is is beyond pathetic for you to cry about being insulted as you youself engage in insults.  You poor thing.  Sorry about your feelings getting hurt.  Worse kind of liberal.  Awesome.

                                                                            Report Abuse
                                                                            • Author by watershed (September 27, 2008 2:42 pm ET)
                                                                                 

                                                                              Cop out meaning lack of substance via insults, which you have invariably resorted to in this back and forth. I tried to discuss the matter with you (perhaps in a strong tone, but at least with substance), and you back away from your original positions, and then do the cop out insult thing.

                                                                              But your opinion on this matter is quite clearly posted here and in other threads: you feel satire causes violence, and you would have it removed. Really, no matter how you try and back out of it, this what you've said.

                                                                              Again, good luck!

                                                                              Report Abuse
                                                                              • Author by Governor (September 27, 2008 4:27 pm ET)
                                                                                   

                                                                                "you would have it removed."

                                                                                Never did I write anything about removing or censoring satire (and, like, duh, I don't got that power anyway).  Never did I claim that satire directly causes violence.  You just can't handle my opinion.  You are way too motivated by what other people think.  That I have the opinion that the New Yorker cover backfired on them bothers you to the point where you actually feel you must change my mind on this.  Wow!  How weak are your convictions?  Why do mine threaten you so much?  Live and let live, dude.

                                                                                Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:22 am ET)
                                                                 

                                                              There's so much more. This is fun!

                                                              Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                              And where in the cover is any demonstration of "racism"?

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 4:37:55 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                              The cover depicts Muslims as anti-American terrorists.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 4:42:47 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                              It did no such thing. It depicted the Obamas as right wing smears come to life, and as victims themselves. It was absurdity.

                                                              It was SATIRE, Governor.

                                                              AND are you saying the victim of the hate crime was affected by the cover of the New Yorker?

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 4:47:52 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                              I'm saying that the implication - that Muslims are anti-American terrorists - does harm to American Muslims.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 4:52:10 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                              To depict something is not to propagate it. If that were the case, Schindler's List propagates the holocaust, Slaughterhouse Five advocates war, and Stephen Colbert is a bastion of conservative politics.

                                                              You surely understand this.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 5:12:07 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                              Question: do you think the cover helps Muslim / American relations?

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 5:13:12 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                              Good Lord. Repeating something like that lends no weight to the question.

                                                              No, I dont think the cover has anything at all to do with...gasp, MUSLIM/AMERICAN relations, and it is foolish and insulting to say so.

                                                              And YOU, who knows full well that this cover is satire, condescend to and insult actual victims (like your hate crime victim) with your absurd cries of victimization.

                                                              Over a magazine cover. My God.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 5:20:57 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                              I am simply maintaining that dipicting Muslims as anti-American terrorists is a foolish thing for New Yorker to do.  You think it's cool satire.  I think it's sucky satire.  Fin.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 5:25:38 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by watershed in reply to Governor

                                                              No, they depicted the OBAMAS as the victims. That's the point of the satire, which you now admit you understand.

                                                              This picture will NOT be the cause of one hate crime.

                                                              Posted Tuesday July 15, 2008 5:30:01 PM EDT / Flag this comment

                                                              Posted by Governor in reply to watershed

                                                              This picture will NOT be the cause of one hate crime.

                                                              My point is this: the very negative sterotypes that it features harms more than it helps American Muslims.

                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by Governor (September 26, 2008 11:31 am ET)
                                                                   

                                                                What do you think your are proving?

                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by watershed (September 26, 2008 11:35 am ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  I'm saying God help people who think their heart is in the right place as they condescend to the rest of us in an attempt to take away anything wonderful or creative or even, yes, a little dangerous in order to SAVE HUMANITY.

                                                                  Those people? They're the worst of all.

                                                                  Report Abuse
    • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (September 25, 2008 3:49 pm ET)
         

      I don't want Johnnie Smacksame to have ANY involvement in this mess.  The last person in the world to "help" the situation is this idiot.  Is he going to sit in, hoping he can do some good for his buddies at the last minute?  If I were drowning and McCain threw me a rope I would take my chances with the sharks. We certainly don't need any MORE Republican "mavericks" SOLVING problems. Whenever I see the term "affordable housing" I gag.  

      Report Abuse
    • Author by downwithbs (September 25, 2008 3:53 pm ET)
         
      We haven't seen such parsing of language since the Clinton years. To say Rick Davis hasn't "taken money from" Fanny or Freddy skirts the way he was paid (i.e., via the Homeowners' Alliance) and disregards the benefit that has been accruing to him through his firm, which they can't deny still has Davis' name on it. And as for the McCain campaign having higher anti-lobbying standards than the Obama campaign, well, the bigger the whopper, the wider Ms. Pfotenhauer's smile.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (September 25, 2008 3:56 pm ET)
         

      Hey, SNOOPY, in reference to McCain hiring a make-up artist at $5,000.00 a pop, did you ever see "The Picture of Dorian Gray"?  

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Governor (September 25, 2008 4:14 pm ET)
         

      You're welcome.  I’ll provide metaphoric polls numbers as they become available.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by congero6189599 (September 26, 2008 9:15 pm ET)
         
      What is with this weird nodding of the head and phony smiles. Does she really think that will keep people from concentrating on her "lies."
      Report Abuse
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