MSNBC's Hall said "it would be rude to ask Joe [the Plumber] what his income is" -- but it's key issue
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SUMMARY: Discussing Sam Joe Wurzelbacher ("Joe the Plumber") on MSNBC Live, Tamron Hall said that "according to the federal government's Bureau of Labor Statistics, the national average for a plumber: $45,000. ... I think it would be rude to ask Joe what his income is." But Wurzelbacher's income -- or expected income -- is the issue in determining the veracity of McCain's charge that Wurzelbacher's taxes would increase under Sen. Barack Obama's tax plan.
On the October 16 edition of MSNBC Live, during a discussion of Sam Joe Wurzelbacher ("Joe the Plumber") -- mentioned by Sen. John McCain numerous times during the October 15 presidential debate as an example of a person whose taxes would increase under Sen. Barack Obama's tax plan -- host Tamron Hall said that "according to the federal government's Bureau of Labor Statistics, the national average for a plumber: $45,000. ... I think it would be rude to ask Joe what his income is." But Wurzelbacher's income -- or expected income -- is the issue in determining the veracity of McCain's charge. Wurzelbacher told ABC's Good Morning America host Diane Sawyer that he does not make $250,000 or more -- and reportedly told ABC News' Chris Bury that if he purchases the plumbing business he intends to purchase, he would still make less than that -- which means that his income would not be subject to a tax increase under Obama's tax proposal.
Obama has proposed cutting taxes for low- and middle-income families and raising taxes only on households earning more than $250,000 per year. In an October 16 post on his blog, ABC News senior national correspondent Jake Tapper wrote that according to ABC News' Chris Bury, Wurzelbacher "acknowledged that he wants to purchase the plumbing business for $250-280,000, not that he would net that much in profits. He would make much less, he said." Tapper also noted that "Wurzelbacher this morning told ABC News' Diane Sawyer that he was talking about, in Diane's words, the prospect, the hope that someday he would make $250,000."
Indeed, during the October 16 edition of Good Morning America, Sawyer asked Wurzelbacher: "[Y]ou're not taking home $250,000 now, am I right?" Wurzelbacher replied: "No. No, not even close." Sawyer then asked: "And you were you asking about the prospect, the hope, that someday you would make $250,000, and you were saying you didn't want that to be taxed?" Wurzelbacher responded: "Well, exactly. Exactly."
Additionally, during an October 15 webcast, Couric asked Wurzelbacher: "Well, [Obama] supposedly will raise taxes only on people who make over $250,000 a year. Would you be in that category?" Wurzelbacher responded: "Not right now at presently, but, you know, question -- so he's going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much? I mean, you know, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich? And $100,000 and you're rich? I mean, where does it end? You know, that's -- people got to ask that question."
From the 11 a.m. ET hour of the October 16 edition of MSNBC Live:
RYAN FOWLER (WNWO reporter): So, Joe has some strong opinions on this year's election. He says he's a conservative, but like you mentioned, he doesn't want to -- kind of give away who he's going to vote for. But after last night, he said McCain won that final debate, so you have to think he might be leaning towards McCain -- Tamron.
HALL: Yeah, you would think that, and we actually got a little bit of data from our friends over at CNBC -- people wanting to know what the average plumber makes. And according to the federal government's Bureau of Labor Statistics, the national average for a plumber: $45,000. Their actual average hourly rate is $22.76. I think it would be rude to ask Joe what his income is. But it's interesting, Ryan, that he has been kind of secretive about who he's voting for, in that, he's been so vocal this morning.
From the October 16 edition of ABC's Good Morning America:
SAWYER: Well, I just want to ask you now about the issue that was raised, because it's been a little confusing to me as I tied -- tried to sort it out here. To get straight here, you're not taking home $250,000 now, am I right?
WURZELBACHER: No. No, not even close.
SAWYER: And you were asking --
WURZELBACHER: No, it's --
SAWYER: -- about the prospect, the hope, that someday you would make $250,000, and you were saying you didn't want that to be taxed?
WURZELBACHER: Well, exactly. Exactly.
Joe the Plumber US House 2010
I'm sure the US House has it's own plumbing contractor
More stuff is surfacing about Joe The Plumber:
Joe The Plumber: Social Security Is A 'Joke' And Liberal Conspiracy Theories
By Bonnie Erbe
Oct 16, 2008
(US News) Joe Wurzelbacher, the plumber so often referred to by Sen. John McCain in the third and final debate had better learn to shut his mouth. The more he speaks publicly, the more he looks like the GOP plant liberal blogs are starting to claim that he is. Watch him calling Social Security a "joke" on YouTube:
I'm no fan of tax hikes, but even I recognize Social Security is no "joke." It has single-handedly lifted millions of elderly and disabled Americans out of poverty and turned America's elderly from the most impoverished age demographic to one with an income more in line with that of working families.
Joe the Plumber so loves media attention, he's drawing pro-Obama bloggers to question his authenticity as an undecided voter:
Joe has been on so many right wing talk shows it appears pretty obvious that this is a coordinated attempt to pull a last second 'tax and spend' haymaker. Family Security Matters, a wingnut security policy thinktank, has the first interview with Joe after this Obama encounter. Hmmm. What's the chance that a group like this gets the first interview with this alleged 'undecided voter'?
Other blogs say Wurzelbacher may be related to Charles Keating of the Keating Five and that his father is a major Republican donor:
Joe the Plumber, the star of tonight's debate, may have a very interesting connection to John McCain. In fact, Joe the Plumber (Joe Wurzelbacher) of Cincinnati, Ohio may be related to one Robert Wurzelbacher of Cincinnati, Ohio, who happens to be Charles Keating's son-in-law. Robert Wurzelbacher was implicated in the Keating 5 scandal, and sentenced to 40 months in prison in 1993. Wurzelbacher is also a huge Republican donor.
Keep watching this story because if it proves true that "Joe the Plumber" is the wealthy, Republican regular the liberal blogs are claiming he is, the McCain campaign could go down as the most corrupt and inept in history.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/17/usnews/whispers/main4527926.shtml
It's starting to turn out that Joe the Plumber ain't. The MSM is being suckered.
Besides, with that kind of income, shouldn't Joe incorporate? How come nobody's brought that up-- who Schedule C's an income that high in a business?
That is what I read too, that he isn't a licensed plumber and is facing tax liens as well. Looks as though Joe the Plumber was scrutinized as much as Sarah the Magnificent. Perhaps the McCain campaign needs to be a little more cautious with their props.
That is what I read too...and is facing tax liens as well.
Just giving you a little backup, Tommy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ak7GnW2GiKF4&refer=home
the story keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Good catch(es), Ol' Ben. May I add a comment of Grampy McBlinky's from last night? (paraphrased);
"I don't care about your association with some old washed up terrorist. I just want to know all about your association with him."
What was he getting at when he mentioned those high priced health plans that cover cosmetic surgery and transplants?
To me it seems that he was saying that transplants were as unnecessary as cosmetic surgery.
Like someone would go in for liposuction and say, while I'm here switch out a lung and one of my nuts too.
Maybe he meant "implants", King. He does have a rapidly deteriorating 1960s vintage trophy wife, and the demands for "gold plated cadillac*" health benefits are probably a major issue for the ol' coot.
I'm in SoCal, so naturally my basic HMO package includes penis enlargement, buttock implants, manscaping, tanning and flushing of precious bodily fluids.
* I believe that was one of the technical terms Grampy used last night.
I'm in New Jersey and because we have a large Irish-American population most of our health care plans also cover penis enlargement.
You do need to show proof that you're irish. For me that's not a problem.
So there's a large need for penis enlargement in SoCal and New Jersey? We're pretty good here except for brief periods of time at 20 below zero.
We're not having much trouble with penises here in SF either. I'm sure our city health plan would cover it though, if necessary.
It's not a problem for me because I too fit all of the stereotypes that go along with being Irish. I can provide proof to the insurance company that I could use a little enhancement. In fact, I could use a lot.
Are you suggesting that the "king" part of your name is not quite correct? Also, the Colonel may not be a "Full BIRD"?
I'm in SoCal, so naturally my basic HMO package includes penis enlargement, buttock implants, manscaping, tanning and flushing of precious bodily fluids.
I hear that Medical has that too, but only illegal immigrants can get it.
I found that very weird too.
It's not a slippery slope. If you think that Obama is lying because he's going to change what he's saying now, that possibility applies to McCain as well. It's such a dangerous thing to do that it would practically have to be a matter of necessity. Remember "Read my lips..."? You can bet that campaign advisors do, and will for the next century.
Mccain just told his adoring fans in Miami that he is going to free Cuba from the brothers. What is he gonna do? send troops in ? As far as lyinggoes, GW Bush just signed the 770 billion dollar tax increase.
Almost half of startup small businesses fail within the first 4 years.
This guy doesn't expect to make $250,000 any time soon. If he were to start his own business when the next president is inaugurated, the chances of his still being in business and making $250,00 are slim to none.
I don't understand his problem. If it were me, I'd gladly accept the tax cut that he's bound to receive under Obama's plan and hope and pray that someday I'd be lucky enough to make enough to have to pay the tax increase that I'd have to pay under Obama.
Since his worry is hypothetical and not based on any real evidence that he'll be in that tax bracket, I've got to start thinking that he sandbagged Senator Obama and allowed himself to be used by the Republicans.
It reallydoesn't matter what his income is, since (as pointed out above) he doesn't pay his taxes anyway.
So how come the MSM isn't mentioning any of this?-- just a little while ago, MSNBC giggled that "Joe the Plumber may not be a plumber, but he is a real Joe!"
Not so. He's not a real anything.
With the blatant way in which both CNN and MSNBC tried to immediately pimp the response to the debate last night as "McCain surely won tonight!" (by letting the Repub pundits talk first to set the agenda) nothing should surprise anyone about their lack of concern about the real "Joe."
Last night, I'd never seen anyhting so obviously trumped up-- this 'McCain did it!" script that they were trying to force from the very begining of the analysis. So when the snap polls came in and completely contradicted this meme, the look on their faces was priceless.
I thought Andrea Mitchell was surely gonna cry, she of the, "well it doesn't matter what the polls say, McCain surely won on points...!" Yeah, right.
NBC just anounced that he's not even a real Joe.
He said his name is Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher.
So to review:
His name is not Joe.
He's not a licensed plumber.
He has tax liens againt him for not paying his taxes.
He doesn't make close to $250,000 a year.
He won't make that salary in a year even if he were to buy the company.
He might take in $250,00 in gross receipts, but that would not be his taxible salary.
I'm not sure he'd be able to get financing to buy a business with tax liens against him and with the way the economy is today.
So why was he questioning Obama about his imaginary future business and why did McCain use this guy's story to attack McCain?
His name is Joseph but he is not a Joe?
I know at least 50 plumbers in Ohio, none have licenses except the owners.
He owes $1,000 in taxes which has nothing to do with anything.
He could buy the company on contract without getting any financing.
It's obvious you know nothing about small business whatsoever.
All local communities require plumbers to have a license. if they are not, they're not plumbers. Laborers maybe, but not plumbers legally.
This Joe guy is a complete fraud. He's nothing to feel sympathetic to, which is what McCain and the Repubs are trying to generate. Poor Joe.
The guy will never buy this busness and it ain't for sale anyway. If he does, he should incorporate it. No one in their right mind would 1040-Schedule C a plumbing business with that kind of income. Or any business. It's insane.
If he incorporates it, the Obama earned income $250,000 tax "problem" disappears.
In other words, the whole story is phony. So why is the MSM crying tears for the guy, still?
I know at least 50 plumbers in Ohio, none have licenses except the owners.
Let's pretend you know 50 people with the same job in the same state, Leather."Joe"s whole scam was about becoming an owner. Don't you think his first concern would be passing his license exam, with his hypothetical increased tax burden way down the road somewhere?.
You should have somebody look over your posts before hitting "post". See you at the Friends of Ohio Plumbers Club meeting!
You're right Leather. i don't know much about small business, other than the fact that almost half fail within the first four years.
I don't know any plumbers in Ohio, but i do know licensed, skilled, craftsmen in many different states, including Ohio. I know that to be called a "plumber" implies that the person has completed an apprenticeship.
Wurzelbacher sandbagged Obama, and either was working for the McCain campaign or offered his services to them because of his fears of socialism and people who tap dance almost as well as Sammy Davis Jr.
This "plumber" if he does buy the company, will not make $250,00 in any of the first four years of his ownership. If he does it will not be his salary, it will be his receipts, which will be taxed differently than his income is taxed.
He will receive a tax cut in each year of the first term of President Obama. His dream is to make it into the tax bracket in which his taxs will be raised under the plan. The chances of him being in that bracket anytime soon are slim.
So what I get from this manufactured working class soap opera is that Wurzelbacher definitely is an ideologue. He's got an ax to grind against Obama. He's complaining about future imagined tax bills, at the same time he has liens against him for failure to pay back taxes.
He wanted the limelight and his fifteen minutes. His time is up. Exit stage right.
And finally, he is not a plumber. He's Sam the laborer. And there is nothing to be ashamed of being a laborer.
If he's concerned about help for working people, he should stop being a puppet for those who convince workers to vote against their best interests.
It's time for the so-called "patriotic" Americans to quit bitching about needing more tax cuts and understand that no economy can survive fighting wars in two different countries and a larger War on Terror while cutting taxes.
"So what I get from this manufactured working class soap opera is that Wurzelbacher definitely is an ideologue. He's got an ax to grind against Obama. He's complaining about future imagined tax bills, at the same time he has liens against him for failure to pay back taxes."
This really is a desperate move on McCain's part. It struck me at the time how eager he was to bring up "Joe the plumber". Obama looked somewhat amused, almost like he remembered him as you're describing him here. That guy who was upset that he might have to pay a little extra tax if he made a lot more money. And Obama addressed it, basically saying that if you make 250,000, then you're doing fine. It's nothing to complain about. It doesn't hurt "plumbers".
It's such an odd message, trying to connect "Joe the plumber", a symbol of the everyday working man, with an income of a quarter of a million dollars a year. These things don't go together. McCain making such a great effort to make this the theme of the debate - "I'll help you, rich plumber man!" - seems like one of the last dying gasps of a drowning campaign.
"His dream is to make it into the tax bracket in which his taxs will be raised under the plan. The chances of him being in that bracket anytime soon are slim."
I think that dream of someday making it big is the thing that makes Republican voters consistantly want to give away tax breaks to the rich. 99% of them will never make enough money to benefit from those cuts though. Actually less than 99% because the vast majority of people that will ever make that much money are already there. I would rather have more money now when I need it than at some undetermined time in the future when I don't. Joe's whole argument reminds me of people I hear occassionally say stupid things like "I wouldn't even want to win the lottery if it was only a million dollars cause it'd all go to taxes anyway." No it wouldn't. A rich person that get a 2% tax increase (isn't that the average increase in Obama'z plan?) is still rich. If Joe goes from making $35K or so (my guess for an unlicensed plumber) to making his estimated $280K (which is really unrealistic since the business grossed around $100K last year) what does he have to complain about? I don't think this guy was a plant but I think he did present bogus scenario to prop up ideologically based arument.
Thanks, Leatherhelmet. The character assasination on this site is getting truly sickening.
This guy's only REAL sin is that he's not an Obama supporter. So let's delve into his tax records, his work history, his marital situation, and oh while we're at it let's publish his home address on the web. Let's question what his name is, let's criticize him for non incorporating (because we all know SO MUCH more about his situation than he does) and let's basically drive him back under a rock, where all people who suggest Obama doesn't walk on water belong anyway. That will shut him up, and send a chilling message to anyone else out there who might consider openly questioning The One.
The point is that McCain's story was bogus. He was trying to make a case that the hard-working guy trying to get his own business was stymied by Obama's heartless tax plan. It's a load of crap. Blame McCain for putting his full name out to the public if you like, it's not as if he couldn't expect people to follow up on it.
It's beginning to look like Joe the F***ing Plumber is just another Republican hack, who misrepresented himself to illustrate a Troglodyte talking point.
The sad thing is that the point he was trying to make isn't even valid.
And Jeff Christie is already running to his defense. That man (Christie) must be working overtime and twice as hard as usual.
Joe the Plumber was a Republican toy.
He was a fake-- but you're not gonna hear that on the news today. They're all excited about him.
Maybe Joe oughta give up the F***ing plumbing business, and go get a job at WalMart--like a true conservative.
Better yet, join the military. Good pay and benefits, and he can put his life where his mouth is, supporting the Bush/McCain wars.
guess it's no wonder John McCain was so happy to use "Joe the Plumber" as a debate prop last night -- he's a partisan Republican who also happens to be a member of McCain's old friends, the Keating family.
From Martin Eisenstadt:
Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.
Not to mention that Obama's economic-recovery plan would put the crimps on influence peddlers like McCain's old friends, the Keating Five.
But he sure made for a good one-day story.
From Crooks and Liars
Turns out Crooks and Liars were wrong again. Geez, they must hold some kind of record.
Wrong Wurzelbacher. Say that 3 times straight.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/133831/42/1001/632600
I think this whole 'Joe the Plumber' thing has Rove written all over it...
And it backfired - just like McCain.
Good point, prince. Of course, if it's under the table, why's he worried about taxes at any rate? Maybe he heard about the old IRS and Al Capone stories.
Is it undemocratic (or unDemocratic) if I support the idea that people this dumb should not be allowed to vote?
Could it be that Joes a plumber like Tony Soprano's in waste management.
or as in Watergate plumber?
Leather, you know at least 50 plumbers in Ohio? That's an impressive claim, in a lame sort of way. Are you a plumber there or, like McCain, do you just spend a lot of time in the sewers?
Trickle What Down
Say hello to why the trickle down theory does not and will not work. People like Joe, the rich, Plumber will not give anybody a dime "for what I (he) worked for." Taken directly from the "tricklelist" mouth, the trickle down theory is, by design, something even the rich will not consider.
I wonder what is next for Joe, the phony, Plumber. I know one thing: The Republicans need to pay for the fact that Joe is not a Plumber, he has connections to Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The MSM did not do their homework. All the shows are showing this lying Plumber -- I want so bad to call him a nasty name. I too am really drained by, in a sense, having to look over my shoulder for something to ruin Barack Obama's chances. From Acorn to now a dam plumber, the Republicans are loading up and putting things out there. With luck, they feel something will stick.
The only thing that should stick is a crisp exposure to Joe the Plumber's partisan game of misconception.
Joseph
Who cares about Joe the plumber. We've got Obama on record saying he is a Communist.
Joe the Plumber is a Communist? You should back that up with some evidence, Nutsez.
Apparently the geniuses on this website do not understand the concept of a HYPOTHETICAL question. "Joe the Plumber" could have been Frank, a no skill layabout that isn't registered to vote and the question would still be valid. It is the ANSWER that is important and the answer sucked.
'Washington Post', 'L.A. Times' endorse Obama
Ah yes, more examples of the MSM right wing bias! lol
From a site keeping track of endorsements
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230
JOHN McCAIN
16 newspapers total
1,502,163 daily circulation
BARACK OBAMA
51 newspapers total
6,299,363 daily circulation
THE MSM IS LIBERAL DEMOCRAT!
Or maybe Obama's a better candidate. You seem to be looking at it from the framework that there's nothing distinguishing these two apart from each other, when there certainly is.
Brab, unfortunately, this is the chimpanzee brain that controls enough Americans to swing an election. If a math test given to first graders shows a majority thinks 2+2 = 4, instead of 2+2=3, it shows a bias in the schools toward even numbers.
Nutsez may be good for a laugh here (lol) but it's not that funny when you consider that his/her vote counts the same as a normal human.
I'm sure if McCain had more endorsements, it would speak volumes because even the "liberal media" doesn't like Obama.
What really makes it funny is the endorsement of the Chicago Tribune. The way conservatives talk about Obama, he's a radical Muslim communist who likes to kill babies and plot with terrorists. But the conservative Tribune, a newspaper that has not once endorsed a Democrat, backs Obama. They didn't endorse Clinton, Kennedy, or FDR, but the supposedly dangerous Obama is a better choice than war-hero and master-of-foreign-policy John McCain.
What's wrong with this picture?