Quinn falsely claimed most average-income bus drivers, teachers, and autoworkers "don't pay any taxes"
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SUMMARY: On The War Room, Jim Quinn falsely claimed that most average-income bus drivers, teachers, and autoworkers "don't pay any taxes." In fact, all U.S. workers are required to pay taxes on their wages for Social Security and Medicare, and people in the United States are also subject to excise taxes.
On the October 17 broadcast of The War Room, co-host Jim Quinn falsely claimed that most average-income bus drivers, teachers, and autoworkers "don't pay any taxes." After airing a clip of Sen. Barack Obama saying, "I want to give all these folks who are, you know, bus drivers, teachers, autoworkers who make less -- I want to give them a tax cut," Quinn said: "He wants to give them a tax cut. Most of those people he just mentioned, if they fall into the average-income category that we're talking about here, don't pay any taxes. So how do you give them a tax cut?" In fact, as Media Matters for America documented, in 2008, U.S. workers who are not self-employed are required to pay 6.2 percent of all of their wages up to a cap of $102,000 and 1.45 percent of their wages for Medicare under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA). Self-employed individuals are required to pay 12.4 percent of their wages up to the cap for Social Security and 2.9 percent of their wages for Medicare. Additionally, people in the United States are required to pay federal excise taxes. For instance, everyone who buys gasoline in the United States pays 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline in federal excise taxes.
The Congressional Budget Office's most recent calculation of the effective federal tax rate, which is calculated by combining the effective tax rates of the four largest sources of federal revenues, found that, in 2005, households in the lowest quintile of income earners pay an average effective federal tax rate of 4.3 percent. The second lowest quintile paid an average effective federal tax rate of 9.9 percent. The table below illustrates the average effective tax rate by income level:
From the October 17 broadcast of Clear Channel's The War Room with Quinn & Rose:
QUINN: The question that Barack Obama raised was: "Well, how many plumbers do you know who make $250,000 a year?" Well, good question. That's an excellent question. Jim Angle from Fox News?
[begin audio clip]
ANGLE: Actually, quite a few small businesses with employees make that much, a point Joe raised when he confronted Obama about his tax proposals earlier this week, telling the candidate he's hoping to buy the plumbing business he now works for.
JOE WURZELBACHER: I'm getting ready to buy a company --
OBAMA: Yeah.
WURZELBACHER: -- that makes 200, about 250, $270, 80,000 a year.
OBAMA: All right.
WURZELBACHER: Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, doesn't it?
ANGLE: Obama pointed to other tax breaks that might soften the blow and said he needs to tax those with incomes over $250,000 to give tax breaks to others who make less.
[end audio clip]
QUINN: Now, understand that so many of these companies that make over $250,000 a year, they don't put that in their pocket and take it home -- the company makes it. They file as Chapter sub-S corporations, which shows up as an individual tax return -- these people are not walking away with 250 Gs.
OBAMA [audio clip]: I want to give all these folks who are, you know, bus drivers, teachers, autoworkers, who make less -- I want to give them a tax cut.
QUINN: Wait a minute. Let -- hold on a second. He wants to give them a tax cut. Most of those people he just mentioned, if they fall into the average-income category that we're talking about here, don't pay any taxes. So how do you give them a tax cut? You give them a tax cut by taking away Joe's money and redistributing the wealth to them.
It's obvious that when Quinn & Rose are in the studio, there are no functioning brain cells in the room.
I am so glad I never have to hear these a holes.
Who in their listening audience is not something like a bus driver, teacher, or auto worker? I'm a teacher, and I quite distinctly remember paying taxes every year since I became one. I can hardly believe people with ordinary, middle-class jobs are listening and saying, "Yeah, that's right, I don't pay any taxes!" If this "War Room" is for the culture war, they just took a shot across the bow of, um, almost everybody. Smart.
Well, being an autoworker, I pay a lot of taxes. I have about 4-5 teachers in my family. They all pay taxes. My dad was a pipe fitter in a paper mill for 40 some odd years, yep, he paid taxes every day of his life. The only time I never paid taxes on my income was when I made about $700 for the entire year when I was 15 years old, and working at McDonald's about 8-12 hours per week. And that was for one year. Been paying taxes every year since I was 16.
If this "War Room" is for the culture war, they just took a shot across the bow of, um, almost everybody. Smart.
Quinn & Rose are foot soldiers in the War On Truth being waged by the right.
Gee willikers, I wonder what that HUGE chunk taken out of my teachers' check was. Come to think of it, from the age of 13, I paid Federal AND state taxes on every damn cent I earned. I am now getting my "free-loader" Social Security, for which I paid into ALL my life! I am paying Fed taxes on 85% of THAT. The state of Louisiana taxes me on my New York State Teachers' retirement. Many states do not tax out-of-state retirement income.
Thank WJC for the tax on 85% of your SS income. But BHO is going to change that as I understand, exempting the first $50,000 from income tax for senior citizens.
Well, at least we're done with GWB!
IIBC, the use of taxes being deducted out of pay (commonly known as withholding--or, as the British would say, Pay As You Earn) is common business practice, and has been since around World War II, when PAYE was introduced to make things easier for taxpayers as a war measure.
Meanwhile, our good droogs in the States of Jersey out in the Channel Islands have embraced a concept worth studing in the "morally superior" United States when it comes to lower-income taxpayers: Marginal Rate Relief, by name.
Boy howdy, the wingnuts sure are easily confused.
QUINN: The question that Barack Obama raised was: "Well, how many plumbers do you know who make $250,000 a year?"
ANGLE: Actually, quite a few small businesses with employees make that much...
A small business is not a plumber. Is that really so difficult?
Where's this idea of nobody paying taxes coming from? I remember paying very little federal income tax when I was a youngster and not making very much money, but I don't remember ever getting all of my withholdings back. What's the cutoff for exemption for a single person?
All of a sudden everyone's a tax expert. I'm not aware of many people who don't pay something to the IRS each year. I'm going to look into this and see if I can find the accountant these guys use.
I usually got a tax refund each year when my kids were young, but it wasn't anywhere near a 100 % refund. Probably not even a 50 % refund.
I'm thinking they're talking about those "alternate reality" workers not paying taxes Colonel.
I have to admit I got a huge chunk back this year. The small business I formed pays no taxes because I formed a sub chapter S corp which allows me to funnel all my savings and losses into my personal income. However, even without the sub chapter S setup you are still not going to pay much in taxes for a few years at least. I've rarely seen a new small business start out making a profit because they can deduct the price of all equipment bought, they can depreciate equipment, in fact, they can pretty much deduct any expense no matter how small or seemingly trivial as long as they can prove it's a business related expense. I can attest from personal experience that small business startups most likely will pay little to no taxes for at least 3 years.
But Snoopy, I think you're making my point-- The repub spin is that small businesses and Joe the Plumber get hammered while some faceless mass of freeloaders is paying nothing.
And that is blatantly false. As most intelligent thinking human beings would tell you. Thing is, it's not like Obama wants to take money from the rich, and give it to the poor and the middle class ala Robin Hood (as someone compared him to recently). What he wants to do is to let poor and middle American KEEP more of the money that they EARN, while taxing at a slightly hire rate, those of us in American you can afford it. The extra tax money he gets poured into programs that run the country. You know, things like defense, infrastructure, medicare, Social Security, and so on and so forth.
Thing is, it's not like Obama wants to take money from the rich, and give it to the poor and the middle class ala Robin Hood
Really? If you make more than 250,000 he is certainly doing that. That's is a perfect description of the BO tax plan.
I guess you think that as a 'rich' guy.... all that money you have was created simply by your own blood, sweat, and tears?
Are you a business owner? small? large? An upper manager for a corporation? did you win the lottery? or were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth (like GWB?)
Either way..... I could care less if you have to pay a few percentage points more in taxes.... you made your money and it was not created by only you and your hard work!
It was created with the help of SOCIETY! For if the society in which you are part of decided NOT to buy your wares... you would make no money! Or if the company you work for ended up in the same situation... it would go belly up and you are making no money.
The one thing I have come to realize these last eight years of GWB in the White house.... is that there are many rich people that seem to think that paying for their use of the 'commons' is some kind of a burden....
So I say.... shut the hell up, keep paying whatever your fair share is or stop using the infrastructure of our society that is paid for by those taxes!
I shed no tears for your predicament about having to pay a few extra percentage points in taxes!
So I say.... shut the hell up, keep paying whatever your fair share is or stop using the infrastructure of our society that is paid for by those taxes!
Yeah, only the pundits care about Joe the Plumber-- they're really worried about his plight. Even though he has been proven not to exist.
But real people?-- the polls showed afterwards that nobody wants to hear a rich guy whining about how much taxes he has to pay. That's what he was doing. Only the rich care-- like the MSM pundits, who seem to have more concern for Joe than Jose.
Oh for God sakes, Dave, you incessant whiner. You'll still be a rich POS if your tax rate jumps 3%. I'm guessing with all the loopholes, write-offs and exemptions you get, you pay less than I do. So spare me, please, this taking wealth from the most productive bs.
I'm sick of elitist punks like you screaming class warfare when you know damn well the tax burden has been shifted from the leisure class to the working class.
So your business is one of those numerous corps that pay no income taxes?
"I can attest from personal experience that small business startups most likely will pay little to no taxes for at least 3 years."
Yeah, but they always get audited in order to distinguish a real business from a hobby masquerading as one. You been audited yet?
And hey, I want your job!-- plenty of time to search for funny cartoons! What kind of line of work you in?
Yeah, but they always get audited in order to distinguish a real business from a hobby masquerading as one. You been audited yet?
Yup. From day 1. I can personally attest to that claim too.
Exactly Col. Exactly. It's amazing how they just avoid what was said, take it out of context, make something up, and presto change-o, Obama wants your first born son to sacrifice on the alter of stoopidity.
Cutoff for a single earner is $8700/year; for a married couple filing jointly, $17500. There are very few people with stable, full-time jobs making less than that per year, especially in the fields Obama mentioned. In my neck of the woods, where teachers are drastically underpaid, the median salary for an elementary school teacher is $40,400. Nationally, bus drivers with 5-9 years of experience average $44,000/year. The average auto worker made just over $25/hr in 2005, which works out to about $50K for a year. If folks making that much money aren't paying any taxes, it's no wonder we have a budget shortfall. Seriously, though, Quinn has to be completely out of touch - or simply ignorant and misinformed - to make such an idiotic statement. Funny how those who claim to be so in touch with "real Americans" have no idea how those folks live.
It largely depends on the deductions. A very large family with a bus driver as the bread-winner would likely not pay taxes due to the deductions provided by dependents. However, a bus driver with one or two kids likely would still be paying taxes. Plus, if the spouse works you not only lose a dependent deduction but you gain more income as well.
I only wish that some of the folks that support the Republican party could learn enough about these issues to vote in their self-interest. Why a bus driver supporting three kids and a wife on $40,000/year would ever vote Republican is beyond me. I can understand the fat cats. They are voting for he party that is built to cater to their needs.
My youngest brother is one of those people. He's a truck driver, Barely making it, yet he votes republican. mainly becuase of immigration issues. (I know, I know.) I keep trying to lay it out for him, but it usually ends bad.
What does he think of gay marriage?
Because that-- I fear-- is going to be the October surprise we're waiting for (especially thanks to Biden foolishly jumping into the issue on Ellen.)
Do you really think there are many people uncomfortable with gay people who watch Ellen? I hadn't even heard of any controversy until you mentioned it. It must really be at the forefront of the news cycle.
Oygb,
Believe it or not, some people do not have that 'gimme more' attitude. They vote on what they think is best for the country and not how much Barak promises to give them in order to buy their vote.
Then it would follow that all wealthy GOP'ers, or all GOP'ers for that matter, should be standing in line to pay more taxes during this time of war and national crisis. Especially, since we are in a clash with the Islamofascists for the fate of the fear world.
Strange I hear nothing of the sort -- more of the mine, mine, mine call for the folks who were the first to cry war, war, war on the Right.
You just described democrats perfectly. Thanks for that.
Maybe some of us think that giving tax breaks to rich people who don't really need it while we're spending $250,000,000 every f***ing day in Iraq is NOT GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY.
And please, spare me the "Rich people create jobs" routine. Rich people were creating jobs left and right back when the top tax rate was around 90%. Rich people will always create jobs, because they need workers to make them richer. It's a basic fact that trickle-downers like to ignore.
So you guys have not only convinced blue collar folks that they should be raped, but you make them supply the lube? If Palin gets in are you going to charge them for their rape kits as well?
I can answer your question, OnceYouGoBarack. Why that bus driver you wrote about votes Republican? S-T-U-P-I-D! He believes the lies they have told since the beginning of time: We need your taxes to "secure the country". Sure, Bro, you pay more than your share 'cause the rich guys need their money to "create jobs". Why, if we let you keep your meager dough, that would be socialism, and you know what socialism is. (This is what my racist father used to say about why the black workers were paid such low wages.) "Why, them people wouldn't know what to do with all that money. It'd just spoil 'em."
Yes, they circle Uranus and drown those pesky facts in Neptunian bathtubs. Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
Joe was a McCain plant, I'm pretty sure of it in my little conspiracy world. Which is why the media, and other folks, dug into Joe's history. Seems like this is another great McCain debacle of not properly vetting someone to do his bidding. Now we have Ed the Dairy Man as well. I wonder what's next?
It's really working among their base. I heard the local Rush wannabees this morning talking about how Joe has been attacked and maligned by the Obama Campaign and the "Liberal Media" for "just asking a question". WTF?
Of course, we all know that the truth is very different. PigBoy Limbaugh made Joe into an issue on his show the day before the debate, and Grampy mentioned him repeatedly during the dabate. It's also a fact that Joe misrepresented his circumstances, and the Republicans ran with it, portraying him as a small business man who would be negatively impacted by Obama's tax plan.
They lied.... again.... and Joe is getting embarrassed by it. Too bad. If he wants to be mad at somebody, he should be mad at the Republicans.
It's also a fact that Joe misrepresented his circumstances, and the Republicans ran with it, portraying him as a small business man who would be negatively impacted by Obama's tax plan.
It really is crazy, isn't it? I mean, Joe the Plumber doesn't exist. It's like worrying about the man in the moon. Yet, they're still at it.
I'll go your conspiracy theory one better. I think that they know exactly what they're doing. Truth isn't important. What's important is the initial presentation.
They nominated Palin knowing there'd be an outbust from the left. They were right. Any criticism or questioning of them or Palin, or now Sameul (Joe) the laborer (plumber), intensifies their base's feeling of victimization. They feed off this fake outrage.
With the electorate split pretty evenly, they feel if they repeat the lies and scare tactics, they might peel a point of two off Obama's lead. The closer it gets to Nov. 4 the more traditional their campaign will become. They think voters will give them another look.
They think they'll be able to get away with it, but they're going down. They took a chance unleashing the bozos and it back fired. They''ve put fear into the electorate, but this time it's the Republicans they fear, not us scary, godless, commies on the left.
Wow, that's much better than my conspiracy theory.
This just in.
The legendary Yeti might be more real than Joe the Plumber.
Very exciting, WK. Do you think Bigfoot has anything to do with the rainbows?
The rainbows are seeping out of the groud, Bigfoot walks on said ground.
The confluence of the Yeti, the rainbows and the police sirens in the background predict the end is nigh.
Rainbows out of the ground are caused by Unicorn urine...I learned that in "very" High School.
Bigfoot/Nessie '08!
One has to remember that 1% of Obama's lead is what 700,000 or more? I'm not sure you can swing that many people with the boogey-man tactics they have indulged in of late.
I don't know ANYONE who doesn't pay taxes, including my teacher friends who probably pay a higher percentage than I do. Idiot radio. And they wonder why Obama is appealing to America. They just insulted half of us. Let them haul out Joe The Plumber as the McCain everyman - nice symbol for McCain. A tax-cheating loser single dad who doesn't understand social security and a pregnant teen on their list of ASSOCIATIONS....well, I guess that's America.
It's about, oh, 62 percent of it.
Shaggles is kind enough to ask:
The main reason lower-income-earners don't pay taxes is because any taxes as are withheld from pay are, thanks to tax credits and deductions (including the Earned Income Credit for low-wage workers), clawbacked more than likely.
("Clawbacked" is the British English term for "rebated.")
You know, I have to wonder.... in today's popular culture, we constantly hear about sports figures and entertainers and CEOs who make millions every year. Could it be that, to the relatively uneducated mind, $250,000 doesn't sound like very much money? Maybe all these GOP knuckledraggers assume that they'll be making that much money any day now? Do they not realize that only the top 2 or 3% make more than that?
"Now, understand that so many of these companies that make over $250,000 a year, they don't put that in their pocket and take it home -- the company makes it. They file as Chapter sub-S corporations, which shows up as an individual tax return -- these people are not walking away with 250 Gs."
Well, if the company NETs over $250K, yes the owner is. The key here is NET income, after ALL expenses. This doesn't mean that if your business has sales over $250k you're going to get screwed under Obama's proposal.
Why is it that commentators have absolutely NO clue when it comes to small business and how people make their money. It's really not that hard. I'll just cover S corp and LLC, which is almost all smaller and even some larger businesses. Sole proprietors are pretty similar with schedule C too.
Whatever is left over at the end of the year in profit, AFTER EXPENSES is ALL that matters. Let's say I have sales of $1 million. I have expenses of $800,000. This would include payroll, rent, cost of goods, utilities, the whole shebang. Your business made $200k.
This $200k would flow down to your personal taxes as income. This (plus any W2 income you pay youself as an employee) is what you are taxed on. Unless your W2 + your corp NET profits are over $250k, you're OK. And if you are making more, only the amounts covered in the higher bracket get taxed at that higher rate, the whole income isn't taxed at that rate.
I've only seen one or two people anywhere understand this. Mostly, it seems like the right screws it up, as mentioned in this thread's topic. They're always trying to make it sound like this will snare almost any business owner.
"Taking Joe's money away and redistributing it"
Um, I believe Joe the Unlicensed Plumber is making just as much as these people, who would greatly benefit from Obama's plan.
Most people do not do their own tax return, they have professionals do it for them. Even very easy returns are done by Block, et. al. As a result very few people understand much about their taxes. Most people I talk to have no idea what percentage of income they actually pay. This lacl of knowledge allows the republican talking points to take hold.
Joe the Plumber is NOT a business man. Joe worked FOR the guy who owns the business. Joe is not even a bona-fide plumber. His real name is Joe the Shill. Just call me Don the Drunk. In New Orleans, being a drunk is a Civil Service position.
We decide collectively through our elected representatives, just like we decide everything else.
You really should open the gate to your estate and walk outside once in awhile. Then you wouldn't post such foolishness.
You rich people get more police enforcement protection, get more usage from tax paid roads, more possessions protected by the military, more direct access to the politicians, pay less than your share of Social Security, are able to claim a vegetable garden on a 24 acre estate as a farm, pay lower interest rates on loans, and claim most of you vehicles as a business expense.
Seems like the rich are being deadbeats, cheering on a war they don't want to pay for in blood or money.
The right wing is throwing out the 40% of employed workers don't pay any taxes, or sometimes say they don't pay FEDERAL taxes. Either way, until this year I never made more than 21Gs. Being a skilled cook don't pay much. I sure as hell paid Federal taxes, even with my refund it was 4 figures.
I hope there isn't more than 40% of the full time work force making less than that. If there is something's really wrong with our capitalist system. It seems we can't rely on the "Joe The Plumbers" out there to spread the wealth appropriately.
I saw some figures once (on an IRS related website, I believe) that showed that, disregarding SSI and Medicare, which were treated as insurance premiums, that the top 50% of taxfilers paid about 95% of the income taxes in the country. As I recall, that 50% figure cut in at around $28,000 AGI. By those figures, using the SSI/Medicare logic(?) from above, there would appear to be a great number of taxfilers in this country paying little or no income tax. Is it 40%? Is it most average income earners? Probably not, but it may still be a significant figure. In these days of two income families, it can be nowhere near as high as Quinn suggests.
I'm not sure, but I think it said that 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot...
And yours is one of the 63%.
If you are single, never go to the doctor and die in a car accident in your mid 50s, how do you get any benefit from SSI and Medicare?
In that case, you wouldn't get any benefit from your 401K, either.
Yeah, and if you buy a 20 term life insurance policy and live 21 years, you collect????
Or if you pay auto/homeowners insurance for 40+ years and never have an accident/incident, you collect??????
Oh, and perhaps unintentionally, you have made a case for investing part of your SSI payments in a private account that would benefit your heirs.
Remember SSI was initiated when the projected life span was below the set retirement age, so that was factored into the actuary tables.
John McCain is now pushing this talking point by attacking low-income earners. He says that Obama wants to redistribute wealth to "people who don't pay taxes". Well why is Obama going to give them a tax break then if they don't? Stupid.
Well, let's see, if McCain talks about the issues, he loses. And if he doesn't talk about the issues, he loses even more.
I guess Barack is right: "Perhaps I am a little too awesome".
I saw Joe The Plumber get a ride in a Cadillac driven by the Welfare Queen herself.
Joe may have been in an elevator with Bill Ayers, once. I'm just saying.
He obviously was talking about income taxes, not payroll taxes.
Unless Media Matters is claiming that Obama is giving a payroll tax cut.