O'Reilly falsely accused ACLU of remaining silent on government check of Wurzelbacher's records
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SUMMARY: Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, Megyn Kelly and Lis Wiehl falsely claimed that the ACLU has not raised privacy objections to the search by Ohio government officials of "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher's records, with O'Reilly saying the organization's response has been "nothing." In fact, ACLU of Ohio executive director Christine Link wrote in a letter that she "was deeply disturbed to hear that state officials approved the use of government databases to obtain information" Wurzelbacher, and the legal director for the ACLU of Ohio told Media Matters, "We would be very happy to talk to him and see if there's something we could do to pursue redress for this violation of his privacy rights."
On the November 6 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, host Bill O'Reilly, Fox News America's Newsroom host Megyn Kelly, and legal analyst Lis Wiehl falsely claimed that the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) hasn't criticized the search by Ohio government officials of "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher's records, with O'Reilly saying the organization's response has been "nothing -- no ACLU. We haven't seen any of them." In fact, as the News Hounds website noted in response to O'Reilly's comments, Christine Link, executive director of the ACLU of Ohio, the state affiliate of the national organization, posted an October 31 letter in the Cleveland Plain Dealer's online forum, stating that she "was deeply disturbed to hear that state officials approved the use of government databases to obtain information about Joseph Wurzelbacher. ... It is appalling that government officials believe they may access a person's private information simply for being in a newspaper headline."
Discussing the accessing of Wurzelbacher's private records, O'Reilly asked: "Now, where's the ACLU in this? Aren't they the privacy people?" Wiehl replied: "They're busy." Kelly stated: "I'll tell you where they are. They are out in California on behalf of the gay marriage advocates. They're busy." O'Reilly later added: "Can you imagine if a Republican did this to a Democrat? It's unbelievable. But nothing -- no ACLU. We haven't seen any of them." Wiehl responded: "No, no, they're all in California doing the whole gay marriage thing."
Additionally, during the October 31 edition of the Factor, O'Reilly read a viewer email that said of the Wurzelbacher matter: "Where is the ACLU on this violation of privacy? Or is it just terrorist privacy they want to protect?" Immediately after reading the email, O'Reilly stated: "Probably that."
In her October 31 letter -- titled, "Government snoops have no right to pry into newsmakers' personal information" -- Link wrote:
I was deeply disturbed to hear that state officials approved the use of government databases to obtain information about Joseph Wurzelbacher, also known as "Joe the Plumber." Rather than using state databases for their intended purpose, it seems some officials believe they can breach private information simply to satisfy their curiosity about someone in the public eye.
The most chilling aspect of this situation came from the explanation by Job & Family Services Director Helen Jones-Kelley stating that her office regularly conducts searches on peoples' personal information if they appear in high-profile news stories. Jones-Kelley had no evidence that Wurzelbacher owed any back child support, yet she still initiated the search. This is not only unethical, but a dangerous violation of our privacy.
It is appalling that government officials believe they may access a person's private information simply for being in a newspaper headline. This unethical practice only confirms that our state government does not have adequate checks in place to protect our privacy, leaving our most personal information vulnerable to the whims of a person's curiosity. Many people also could be frightened from speaking to members of the media or expressing their views because they could come under scrutiny of our state government.
This problem is crying out for immediate action by our top state leaders. All departments should have ethical procedures for accessing Ohioans' personal information, safeguards against people wrongfully accessing private data and clear consequences for violating these rules. In an age where so much information is available electronically at the touch of our fingertips, our leaders must create better safeguards against unfair breaches of our privacy.
Further, ACLU of Ohio legal director Jeff Gamso told Media Matters for America, regarding Wurzelbacher: "We would be very happy to talk to him and see if there's something we could do to pursue redress for this violation of his privacy rights. We are deeply angered at the abuse of government databases, whether for political purposes, or for morbid curiosity or gossip. It's an altogether unacceptable use of private information."
Additionally, Sandusky (Ohio) Register reporter Tom Jackson wrote in an October 30 blog post that he contacted the ACLU of Ohio about civil liberties questions regarding the Wurzelbacher case, and the organization expressed concerns about the state agency's privacy policy for public figures' information. From Jackson's post:
I wondered if the incidents raised civil liberties questions about whether Joe had been treated fairly. (I'm not a fan of Joe's insights, but it rather looks as if Democratic officials were trying to dig up dirt to make him look bad, as this PD editorial notes.) So I called the state American Civil Liberties Union, and the group's executive director, Christine Link, kindly called me back.
I asked her about news accounts about how the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services' director, Helen Jones-Kelley, had authorized a database search to see if Joe owed child support.
Link said the ACLU generally favors releasing as much government information, but said the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services needs to follow a written policy to make sure everyone is treated the same.
She noted a key sentence in this news story: "Dennis Evans, a spokesman for the family services agency, acknowledged there is no written policy on checking people thrown into the public spotlight."
"This is not good," Link said. "Now it does raise these issues, why are they picking on this fellow?"
As News Hounds noted, the ACLU of Ohio's website has also posted links to several articles expressing privacy concerns regarding state officials' accessing of Wurzelbacher's records.
As Media Matters has documented, O'Reilly has previously branded the ACLU a "terrorist group" and "a fascist organization," and claimed that "the ACLU and the judges who side with them are terror allies." He has also said that "Hitler would be a card-carrying ACLU member. So would Stalin."
From the November 6 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
KELLY: But listen, everyone in the left was -- wanted dirt on Joe the Plumber when he first came out on the national scene.
KELLY: All the left blogs were trying to find out about his tax liens and so on.
O'REILLY: I don't think a bureaucrat like that would do it.
KELLY: I think she [Ohio Department of Job and Family Services director Helen E. Jones-Kelley] may have just been a lefty.
O'REILLY: But anyway, look, Wiehl, if I'm living in the state of New York and somebody doesn't like me in Albany --
WIEHL: Really? Shocked -- I'm shocked.
O'REILLY: Probably --
WIEHL: Somebody not like you?
O'REILLY: -- it might be happening. Do they have a right -- they don't? You're shaking your head.
WIEHL: Absolutely not. And I disagree with Megyn in the sense I do think there is potentially something illegal here. I looked at the Ohio legislative statutes. And employees are strictly liable for misuse of political funds. And I would say, look, her taking the time or ordering somebody else to take the time to look into this, that's misuse of public funds. It takes time and money to do that.
O'REILLY: Because her agency is paid for by the taxpayers.
WIEHL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
O'REILLY: See, she'd have to justify the expense?
WIEHL: The reason she justified it, she said, "Well, you know, when people come into the political eye, like a lottery winner, then we're going to look at them." Well, a lottery winner is a lot different from somebody who barely is --
O'REILLY: So, you would launch an investigation if you were her?
WIEHL: They have -- they have launched an investigation on her.
WIEHL: On her -- not of -- on her of the investigation --
O'REILLY: The attorney general of Ohio?
WIEHL: Exactly. An investigation -- that all they've said today is it's ongoing.
O'REILLY: But they're all -- they're all Democrats, so, you know --
WIEHL: Well, but they have to do it.
KELLY: It's not a mystery.
O'REILLY: And I'm not saying that Democrats are corrupt. I'm just saying that, you know, in a state like Ohio -- or in any state -- there's a lot of cronyism. Now, where's the ACLU in this? Aren't they the privacy people?
WIEHL: They're busy.
KELLY: This is a shocker, isn't it?
O'REILLY: They didn't show up. Where is the ACLU? No, they didn't know about it.
KELLY: I'll tell you where they are. They are out in California on behalf of the gay marriage advocates.
O'REILLY: Oh, so, they're all the way in that --
KELLY: They're busy.
O'REILLY: -- they couldn't help Joe the Plumber.
KELLY: Yeah.
O'REILLY: Don't they have bathrooms, the ACLU?
KELLY: It's so ridiculous.
O'REILLY: Don't they have restrooms there on the premises? Don't they like plumbers?
KELLY: The ACLU would absolutely be involved in this.
WIEHL: But they're too busy.
KELLY: This is tailor-made for the ACLU.
O'REILLY: Can you imagine if a Republican did this to a Democrat? It's unbelievable.
KELLY: The outrage would be --
O'REILLY: But nothing -- no ACLU. We haven't seen any of them.
WIEHL: No, no, they're all in California doing the whole gay marriage thing.
O'REILLY: They're all in California.
WIEHL: You know, it takes a lot to file all these lawsuits in California.
O'REILLY: All right. Let's get -- let's get to this. So, we just want to establish: no ACLU in Ohio --
WIEHL: No.
O'REILLY: -- helping Joe the Plumber.
WIEHL: No, even though there is a huge privacy issue.
KELLY: I'm sure they'll step in and help [O'Reilly Factor producer] Jesse [Watters] if he gets sued, too.
From the October 31 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: Lots of reaction to Ohio authorities investigating Joe the Plumber.
Matt Buckner, Lyndora, Pennsylvania: "O'Reilly, you are right. Governor Strickland wants to attack Joe. I want to join you in protecting our citizens."
If anything happens to Joe the Plumber, you will know immediately, sir.
Sara Wagner, Columbus, Ohio: "I am appalled by Democrats investigating Joe. Running a background check on him is ridiculous."
David Jozsef, Toronto, Canada: "Where is the ACLU on this violation of privacy? Or is it just terrorist privacy they want to protect?"
Probably that.
"I'll tell you where they are. They are out in California on behalf of the gay marriage advocates. They're busy."
Simply not true. That's not even their kind of issue. The ACLU is a First Amendment group. The same ones that got Sean Hannity his job back at SBCC.
Jesus these people.
P.S. The ACLU has filed a suit against Prop 8, but they are interested in a narrow related constitutional issue. They are not a gay-rights group, only expression, yet these FOX nuts always accuse them of being in favor of everything from banning guns to teaching sex in schools.
And defended Limbaugh when his medical records were supenoed in the "doctor shopping" case.
The RW'ers are absolute hypocritical scum when it comes to the ACLU. They say want to limit the size and power of the government... well who better than the ACLU to do that? (Oh wait... they only want some one who will protect THEIR rights, not the rights of those who disagree with them...)
They are sofa king stupid. It's absolutely insane.
The ACLU is dedicated to fighting for the Constitution of the United States. Why do those who rail against the ACLU have such distain and hatred for the document upon which our nation is founded?
O'Reiily had no problem when every Americans privacy was under attack by seven plus years of Bush/Cheney but now he works himself into a froth over Sam the laborers privacy?
If this clown didn't want to have his personnal affairs and imaginary businesses investigated, he shouldn't have put himself out there as a shill for the McCain/Palin camp.
Yes, but he had an obligation to speak up for what he believes in.
After all, he didn't want Obama to take money from Joe the Plumbing Contracting Business Owner, who is a hypothetical, successful, and patriotic American, and give that money to lazy, unpatriotic, do-nothing welfare dependents, such as the not-hypothetical Samuel Wurzelbacher of Ohio.
For every one true Patriot Joe the Plumber, there are a thousand anti-American Samuel Wurzelbachers waiting for the government to hand them JOE'S hard earned money!
Also, Obama = death to Israel. How could he keep that to himself, when so many don't know that?
I understand where you are coming from, and OLeilly is hypocritic to boot, but just because someone sets himself out to be a shill for McCain/Obama should not let Ohio (or any public) government ignore the privacy of an individual.
I have watched this fry brain for 8+ years and have missed less than a dozen of his faucks news comedy shows. Ordinarily, I don't cringe or have an OMG moment in daily life. He provides that in spades. I have heard him many times ask someone to come forward or give an example of someone whose civil liberties have been violated as a result of the patriot act and wiretaps. He hates the ACLU, MMFA and anything to do with preserving our civil liberties. He is under the illusion that "Big Brother" can do no wrong and the forfiture of some of our liberties and rights are acceptable. After all, He has immunity in his "ivory tower" His ideas are absolutely nuance free. He sees only black and white. His concepts about addiction are right out of the dark ages. His concerns with gay rights are non existent and views their parades as an affront against decency for "normal" people and children. His views on reproductive rights favor giving the woman no choice and his sexual educaction ideas are again, out of the dark ages. He is truly a blast from the past. Antiquated, prudish and his political ideals are antithetical to progress. He is rude, obnoxious and an a$$. He is schtick and his right wing guests and replacement hosts (when he is out filling his head with BS) are nauseating. He is aa all American nutball.
Agreed. But don't some records, such as tax lien records, become information that's available to the public?
I didn't mean to say that his personal or welfare records should be investigated. But it's hard to show this guy any sympathy after hearing his pompous, racist rants in the media.
I doubt that Obama gave Joe the Plumber a second thought.
It was the media that dug up all the info on Joe.
I feel no sympathy for Joe, he put his lies out their and he needed vetting.
But hey, he got his 15 seconds of fame.
Worrierking,I've heard some mention that there was some questionable investigating into Sam the Socialist's background, but I don't know how it was used to any evil purpose. I would object to any abuse of gov. agencies to get info. on him.
As far as the general criticism towards him, I agree completely. This guy reminds me of many of the righty media people, and a few posters on this site; They come out tossing BS around at anything that moves. Most of it bounces back on them, then they cry about the unfairness of it all.
Sam the Socialist is a grown man who pushed his way through a crowd to display his ignorance in front of what he knew would be a national audience. Suck it up, "Joe".
And just in case MMFA is taking a holiday, Have a nice Veteran's Day, Worrierking, EWeston, Prince, AChris, and all the rest of you who served. Thanks.
Thanks Colonel.
Happy Veteran's Day to everyone!
Palin/Plumber 2012. Now, there's a winner!
Great, a whole year watching the campaign of Dimwit and the plumber's crack.
SP: "I can see russia from my house!"
PC: "I hate Obama's plan because one day I'm gonna get a job and be rich!"
Snoop, you left out the next line...
SP: "I can see russia from my house!"
PC: "I hate Obama's plan because one day I'm gonna get a job and be rich!"
SP: "Joe, I can see your crack from my house!"
Obscurity train!! This is the obscurity train with a last boarding call for Samuel J Wurzelbacher!! Will Mr Samuel J Wurzelbacher please board the obscurity train as your 15 minutes are now up!!!
hanniyt,coulter and palin
2012
The menage et toix
misadministration
Palin/Plumber 2012. Now, there's a winner!
Crack-Pot and the Butt-Crack.
:-)
Well there's a surprise. O'Reilly has his facts wrong again.
"that would have required thought, and research" -- not at all. It just takes a lackey to give orders to, or a single employee who's taken an Intro to Journalism class.
The media's job has never been easier, and they suck as hard as it's possible to suck at any job. Imagine how basic it is to call for confirmation. It's as basic as a top-flight physicist knowing Newton's laws, or a doctor knowing what a cell is.
I go off on these rants every few weeks because the incompetence of the media takes my breath away, again and again.
Good News: There will be ten thousand new jobs created before Obama even takes office.
Bad News: They will all be professional liars working for the GOP Propaganda Machine.
Wanted: someone (preferrably armed, will provide weapon for a small fee) to engage in a circular firing squad. Must be willing to point and shoot. We'll tell you who. Self starters need not apply.
send all applications to registered republicans. Put at the top of the application:
God wants you to fill this out and make arrangements for one of our freezer trucks to come by and pick up your living corpse. Your body will be used as chum in Great White Shark research. We will keep an eye on the shark after consuming you, to make sure the shark does not get sick. Please, your friends and family are urging you to volunteer. Your passing will ease global warming (we know you don't believe in global warming but we want to apease the Deomocrats) and free up space in over crowded cities. You now have an opportunity to be useful for the first time in your pathetic existence and the world can be rid of the republican scourge once and for all. Fill the form out completely and stand in your driveway with a sign saying: " I am the a$$ hole you are looking for.
It would be a net loss of about 9,000 jobs for the number of LIARS on the left who will be out of work now that George Bush won't be around as a target. Oh..not really since they'll just move into the Administration and become OFFICIAL LIARS, with the Obama stamp of approval
Brilliant use of the "Rubber/glue" comeback, Noleft. Really, you guys have it perfected.
I'm sure you can show us some specific examples right?
bill will correct this tomorrow, with an unqualified and direct apology to the aclu.
...he won't?
Tomorrow, today will no longer exist. That's how it works with Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, et als.
Hey, Irony, I'd refine that a little. Today will no longer exist as far as their history of failure is concerned. The "other guys" past is fair game if they have to go back 50 years.
This is the rulebook in Wingnutworld, where we have some of our favorite posters at this site flabbergasted that somebody would mention the lies they got busted on yesterday, as if it had anything to do with their credibility.
Then they go straight to their essays on Monica Lewinsky and Chappaquiddick.
Turns out though, that Conservatives didn't lose anything in this current election. The GOP lost, but conservatives are apparently still strong, this according to Governor Mark Sanford (I think that's his name). He made that actual statement. The GOP lost, NOT conservatives. Huh? What? Aren't they, you know, one in the same?
We can only hope that the Troglodytes continue down this road and purge all the moderate Republicans from their party. That will leave them with nothing but the Evangelical Nutbags and the Southern gap-toothed racists. It would be a loyal, robotic voting bloc, but too small in numbers to be much of a threat.
Oops, 29%. Still, almost 1/3rd of the states' votes were never counted? Holy Cow!
Snoop, it's a long way from Point Barrow to Juneau, dog sled with the other two bags of votes probably hasn't gotten through yet.
It was only 14% yesterday.
Sometime I'd like an accounting of the sucesses of the various voter denial scams in the last election. The Alaska case has set the bar pretty high
Arkansas is in the running I see. 1/3 of their votes may have been uncounted.
I normally would not recommend this as it is always important to know what both sides are thinking, but it may be in every person's best interest to just ignore any of the far-right's assertions about the ACLU as they appear to be completely wrong and/or deceptive so frequently.
The ACLU believes in the Constitution, not just small parts of it, but ALL of it. I would think that every person in this country would be members of the ACLU based on just that (I in fact am a card carrying member for my small donation that I give every year). Thing is, the ACLU is NOT a liberal organization, and they're NOT a conservative organization. They actually protect, defend, and uphold the Constitution of the United States. See, that's the problem that conservatives have with the ACLU, the ACLU would like for us to, you know, follow the laws set forth under the construction of the Constitution from our forefathers, and conservatives apparently are NOT OK with that.
I know. It's the American CIVIL LIBERTIES Union. Dedicated to protecting everyone's CIVIL LIBERTIES. Your civil rights , to use another term. I find it strange that people who profess to "love the constitution" foam at the mouth about an organization that is there to protect it.
My point, exactly. And like I said, it's ALWAYS the conservatives who are drooling and foamy at the prospect of the ACLU. I think it's because they actually demand that church and state be separate, and somehow they see that as an afront to them, and this country, which it isn't.
The ACLU is one of their favorite whipping boys. I guess it ties in with their "Activist Judges" mythology.
See, they get all chapped every time a court stops them from exercising their right to legislate bigotry, and the ACLU is often involved in those cases. As a result, they demonize the ACLU and every cause the ACLU espouses. On those occasions when the ACLU defends a conservative, they just ignore it.
Expect ACORN I, I confess I have no idea what they did right or wrong, to be adjacent to ACLU in the next election's whipping boys list.
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no Republican there to hear it, does the tree hate America?
That should be a bumper sticker. i'd put it on my car
when the tree falls and it does not fall on a republican, it was a wasted fall and it was a bad tree. Only to be used to make TP.
What else is new? When was the last time Bill O'Reilly let an actual fact stand in the way of his spouting falsehoods?
Data theft, breaches, privacy issues. Read "I.T. Wars".
COLUMBUS — Ohio Inspector General Tom Charles' investigation into whether Helen Jones-Kelley used her top-level state job for improper political fundraising could be finished this week, Charles said on Monday, Nov. 10.
Gov. Ted Strickland has placed Jones-Kelley, 57, of Clayton on paid administrative leave from her $141,980-a-year job as director of the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services due to what Strickland called the "possibility" that a state computer or state e-mail account was used to help in political fundraising for the Obama for president campaign.
Jones-Kelley, who contributed $2,500 to Obama, formerly headed the same department in Montgomery County.
Strickland's office last week released copies of e-mails sent from Jones-Kelley's state e-mail address to the Obama campaign on July 8 about a fundraiser at Stivers School for the Arts in Dayton on July 11.
The e-mails included the names of prospective donors, including Montgomery County Administrator Deborah Feldman. Feldman said she attended the Obama meet and greet at Stivers and paid the $2,500 required.....
http://www.western-star.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/11/11/ddn111108helen.html
So? What's your point? Do you think that this swayed the election results in Ohio? Hardly...
If she's guilty, she'll get what she deserves, and will be punished, as she deserves. What she donated to the campaign doesn't matter either. It appears that she donated the largest amount possible by a single person.
What's your point in posting this?
Sorry my post wasn't clear. She is one of the government people who used her position as a State Employee to look into Joe Wurzlebacher's private records for what could be interpreted as for political purposes.
No I don't think it swayed the results. I just thought it might be interesting to those who live outside Ohio and were not aware of the corruption by in this case, a Democrats officeholder in our State.
oops. She is not an officeholder, but a high level State employee.
You're always good for a laugh AA. Cheerleading for the war in Iraq and defending every dirty deed of the Bush administration, but concluding all by yourself that this ongoing investigation is "corruption" by a Democrat. I'm not saying that it doesn't look a little fishy, but your varying standards are pretty ridiculous.
Oh, so now Republicans are all concerned about the improper use of government e-mail accounts? Where have you been for the last 7 years?
I'm not sure, should O'Reilly's statments be classified as lies or journalistic incompetence?
@steeve:
I can not agree with you that Bull O'Really? is a journalist - just as Sheer Insannity, Ole BlunderRush, and the others are not. They like to style themselves as journalists when it is convenient. However, they clearly are not. And by calling themselves such from time to time, they make it even more difficult on the real thing.
Fox has a dozen journalists at O'Reilly's beck and call. Apparently they don't have a lot to do.
Woooooooooooooooooooossssssssssshhhhhhhhh!
Yipes, Snoop. I don't get the caption, but the screen shot is alarming. Like a hunk of old baloney between two slices of white bread.
May I offer a variation on your theme?
Much more accurate, Bill. Do you have Bimbo bakery stuff out there? I thought it was just a Mexican fave around these parts.
Nope, no Bimbo bread around here. I took the cue from your post. I hadn't ever heard of it before that.
It was supposed to be the world's longest air tunnel!
OK, now I get it. Maybe I'm a little slow. Should I get on the truck?
Isn't this palins new campaign truck for 2012?
Both groups on the left and right can spare me their faux outrage over this issue.
The left clapped when the government did this to this man. I heard a woman on Bill Maher's show say the government had a responsibilty to do this to him.
I dont think the right would hesitate to do this either if they could
Near the end of O'Reilly's interview with Rove tonight, did he threaten Obama? O'Reilly said: "If he (Obama) does any of that stuff where the talk radio and cable access gets him....he's dead.
There is no excuse in using language like that. I would be fired if I said that about my boss.
to be fair, do you consider Matthews, Olberman, and Maddow journalists? If you do you are just as far to the left as they are to the right
Sigs, try reading the article before you coment. I realize you feel you must somehow take Bill's words at face value. I just don't know why anyone would do so.
Frankie, Mathews gets an occasional kudo here. A fair number here hate his everlovin guts.
Oberman's corporate leash has become visible on occasion. He does let off a good one here and there and is appreciated for it. Who do you equate in journalism skilz with him?
Ms. Maddow is a recent public face whose numbers have climbed in an amazing fashion. Amazing to wingnuts maybe. I listened to her for a while on the radio and always found her impressive. I'd be really curious as to who you put in her class as a journalist. One condition though your candidate can't merely be an accomplished liar. He must have investigations whose outcomes are true and not merely part of the neocon talking points circle jerk.
ewe,
Not that you've asked me, but I'll toss in my two cents. I get the feeling many here consider me to be far right for some unknown reasons. :-) So, your pejoritives aside, I'll give you my perspective.
I've stated here before, that I like Maddow. I started watching her during the conventions and thought she gave some of the most insightful commentary on NBC.
However since the elctions are over, I have stopped watching talking head TV so haven't kept up. I thought during the conventions she presented the leftist/progressive/liberal perspective (take your pick) in an intelligent and reasonable manner. I take you at your word that Maddow's star is rising. It's not surprsing to me. It is readily apparent that she is a talented individual.
You may disagree, but I would watch a Rachel Maddow-Dennis Prager TV show along the same lines as Hannity-Colmes.
Kind of academic for me as I don't have cable. So those folks never show on my tv. Oberman on football dosn't count. Where's my progressive tv access?
If the complaints against your posts is a mystery to you, then it will continue to be a mystery for you.
There's a couple conservatives here who'll enter into an honest debate. You might become one, its pretty much up to you.
Apparently you cannot discern sarcasm while at the same time mistake your own silly insults as honest debate. So be it.
Guess you showed me.