Faced with economic turmoil, media conservatives turn to class warfare
SUMMARY: Even though the crises facing the financial and automotive industries were born primarily of the actions (or inaction) of those in positions of power in private industry and in government, many conservative media figures have assigned blame to specific groups of less wealthy or less influential people -- the poor, minorities, undocumented immigrants, and union members, among others -- disregarding the facts that belie such assignments of blame.
On December 8, House Democrats "unveiled a plan ... for propping up the U.S. auto industry" consisting of "about $15 billion in emergency loans if Detroit accepts a federal monitor to oversee operations and restructuring," as reported by the Los Angeles Times. This proposal came just days after the chief executives of Ford Motor Company, General Motors, and Chrysler appeared before the Senate Banking Committee, as the Detroit Free Press reported, to request "government aid they say they need to survive," and "warned of the damage that would be wrought by their failure." This proposed "bailout" of the auto industry follows the passage of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, which authorized a $700 billion "bailout" of the financial services industry after several lenders faced collapse as part of the subprime mortgage crisis and its subsequent impact on the credit market. These economic problems were born primarily of the actions (or inaction) of those in positions of power in private industry and in government. However, many conservative media figures have assigned blame to specific groups of less wealthy or less influential people -- the poor, minorities, undocumented immigrants, and union members, among others -- disregarding the facts that belie such assignments of blame.
FINANCIAL CRISIS
When economists, public officials, and journalists address who is at fault for the subprime mortgage collapse and the ensuing financial crisis, a common theme emerges -- people in power failed to act responsibly. On September 17, Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz wrote that "[t]here is ample blame to be shared," but that "at the center of blame must be the financial institutions themselves." According to Stiglitz, the financial institutions and their executives "misallocated capital; they mismanaged risk -- they created risk." Stiglitz also faulted the Federal Reserve and its former chairman Alan Greenspan for failing "both as a regulator and in the conduct of monetary policy." Indeed, in testimony before Congress on October 22, Greenspan admitted to a "flaw" in his ideology of self-regulating markets, saying, "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interest of organizations, specifically banks and others, was such as that they were capable of protecting their own shareholders." Greenspan also testified that he didn't recognize the existence of the housing bubble, with home prices inflated beyond their true market value, until early 2006, saying, "I did not forecast a significant decline because we had never had a significant decline in prices."
Testifying before the Senate Banking Committee in October, former Securities and Exchange Commission chairman Arthur Levitt faulted the SEC for failing to enforce financial regulations and failing to adequately "rein in dangerously risky behavior." On the November 27 edition of PBS' Nightly Business Report, correspondent Erika Miller explained how "the mortgage market helped lay the groundwork for the crisis":
MILLER: It was Wall Street's securitization of mortgages that eventually turned a nasty housing downturn into a full-blown global banking crisis. Major brokerage firms bought up risky mortgages, bundled them together and sold them off in slices to investors -- often keeping big chunks for themselves. As bond market expert Tony Crescenzi points out, credit ratings agencies then gave the securities top marks.
ANTHONY CRESCENZI (chief bond market strategist, Miller Tabak & Co.): They didn't think through the risks in their entirety, particularly the liquidity risk, which is to say that the rating agencies didn't think about what would happen if securities were difficult to buy and sell in the financial markets.
MILLER: Former Lehman Brothers CFO Brad Hintz, now a brokerage stock analyst, says the problem was that buyers of mortgage-backed securities didn't know what they were getting.
BRAD HINTZ (brokerage analyst, Sanford C. Bernstein & Co.): Securitization, fundamentally, is a good thing. The problem with securitization is when you take it too far, and that's the idea that I can securitize something and I don't care the quality of what I'm securitizing. You know, it's a box of dirt. "I'm going to sell a box of dirt and that's fine.
MILLER: The crisis also would not have escalated so quickly had it not been for esoteric financial contracts called credit default swaps -- CDS for short. These complex derivatives were supposed to reduce risk by guaranteeing against losses in particular mortgage securities. Instead, they spelled disaster for companies which backed them, like AIG, the nation's largest insurance firm.
CRESCENZI: Where CD's went wrong was that they lacked transparency. We couldn't know for sure how many CDS existed for an underlying security. For example, a company might have $1 billion of bonds outstanding, but there could be $4 billion, $5 billion, $10 billion of CDS outstanding.
But despite the emerging consensus that the financial crisis was due largely to irresponsible practices by lenders and lax oversight by government regulators, conservatives in the media affixed blame to other groups, disregarding facts to set their sights on the poor, minorities, and those seeking to expand affordable housing:
The Community Reinvestment Act
Conservatives in the media attacked the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), passed under President Jimmy Carter in 1977, claiming that the law forced banks to make "risky" subprime loans to low-income and minority households. In fact, experts have said that approximately 80 percent of high-priced subprime loans were offered by financial institutions that are not subject to the CRA, which applies only to depository institutions like banks and savings-and-loans. Moreover, Janet Yellen, president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, stated in a March 2008 speech that "studies have shown that the CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households" [emphasis added]. Michigan Law School Professor Michael S. Barr pointed out in his February 13 testimony before the House Committee on Financial Services that lenders subject to CRA face far more scrutiny than other lenders: "Banks and thrifts are subject to comprehensive federal regulation and supervision; their affiliates far less so; and independent mortgage companies, not at all." Barr said further:
Competition from banks and thrifts can help to drive out abusive practices and improve price transparency in these markets. However, given the large role played by independent mortgage companies and brokers, bank and thrift competition under CRA is not enough, on its own, to drive out bad practices. In recent years, there was intense competition among mortgage market participants to provide harmful products. Further federal regulation is thus also necessary to combat abusive practices, prevent a race to the bottom in bad lending behavior, and restore integrity to our housing markets."
Nonetheless, the CRA features prominently as a focus for blame in many conservatives' assessments of the financial crisis:
- On the October 5 edition of Fox News' Special Report, former Wall Street Journal columnist Amity Shlaes said of the CRA: "We want to have everyone be able to buy a house anywhere. We're going to lend to people of all colors. Nothing wrong with that. We're going to make sure those banks do it, and they don't discriminate. But the law went overboard. Institutions made loans that they probably didn't want to make, because they couldn't seem racist."
- On the September 25 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor, Fox News panelist Jonathan Hoenig claimed the CRA "makes banks give loans to bad risks."
- On the September 25 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, radio host Laura Ingraham claimed that 1995 rules strengthening the CRA "pushed all these institutions to lend to minority communities, many were very risky loans."
- A September 25 Investor's Business Daily editorial claimed the CRA "forced banks to make many more subprime loans."
Minorities and low-income families
CRA's purpose is "to encourage depository institutions to help meet the credit needs of the communities in which they operate, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods, consistent with safe and sound banking operations." Those blaming CRA for the financial crisis often also targeted minority and low-income communities:
- On the September 18 edition of Fox News' Your World, host Neil Cavuto asked Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-CA), "[W]hen you and many of your colleagues were pushing for more minority lending and more expanded lending to folks who heretofore couldn't get mortgages, when you were pushing homeownership ... Are you totally without culpability here?" Cavuto later said, "I'm just saying, I don't remember a clarion call that said, 'Fannie and Freddie are a disaster. Loaning to minorities and risky folks is a disaster.'"
- In a September 28 Boston Globe column, Jeff Jacoby wrote: "The pressure to make more loans to minorities (read: to borrowers with weak credit histories) became relentless. Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act, empowering regulators to punish banks that failed to 'meet the credit needs' of 'low-income, minority, and distressed neighborhoods.' Lenders responded by loosening their underwriting standards and making increasingly shoddy loans."
Responding to the chorus of conservatives targeting CRA and minorities, Marc H. Morial, head of the National Urban League, reportedly sent a letter to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson asking him to refute such claims, writing: "It's an effort to shift the climate away from deregulation and the lack of oversight. ... The numbers are becoming clearer each day that a large number of people who ended up with a subprime loan could have qualified for a prime loan. That's the abuse that's inherent here." In a November 19 speech in Baltimore, United States Comptroller of the Currency John Dugan criticized efforts to blame CRA for the mortgage crisis, saying, "CRA is not the culprit behind the subprime mortgage lending abuses, or the broader credit quality issues in the marketplace." Dugan added, "Indeed, the lenders most prominently associated with subprime mortgage lending abuses and high rates of foreclosure are lenders not subject to CRA."
Several media figures attributed the financial crisis to excessive lending to illegal immigrants, but failed to cite credible evidence to support that claim. On October 9, for example, The Drudge Report linked to an article on Phoenix radio station KFYI's website under the headline, "HUD: Five Million Fraudulent Mortgages Held by Illegals..." But the Phoenix Business Journal reported on October 9 that the Department of Housing and Urban Development dismissed such reports as baseless, and that the "agency has no data showing the number of illegal immigrants holding foreclosed or bad mortgages."
Nevertheless, conservative and mainstream media figures leaped on the reports to single out undocumented immigrants in the mortgage foreclosure crisis:
- On the October 9 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight -- which aired after the Phoenix Business Journal article was posted -- San Diego radio host Roger Hedgecock said: "We have a situation where today HUD was talking about 5 million illegal alien home mortgage loans that have gone bad."
- Also on the October 9 Lou Dobbs Tonight, radio host Joe Madison said: "You see, this really angers me, because I'm sitting here ... and wondering, how is it that people who are illegal get loans when people in my community who are legal have a difficulty getting loans, and if they do get them, they're often from predators?"
- In her September 24 syndicated column, Michelle Malkin claimed that "there's one giant paternal elephant in the room that has slipped notice: How illegal immigration, crime-enabling banks, and open-borders Bush policies fueled the mortgage crisis."
AUTO INDUSTRY CRISIS
As the financial situation on Wall Street deteriorated, so too has the outlook for the "Big Three" American automobile manufacturers -- Ford, GM, and Chrysler. The subprime mortgage crisis and the collapse of Lehman Brothers triggered a spike in interbank lending rates, sparking a credit freeze. As The New York Times reported on September 30, lack of available credit further stalled new car sales: "After enduring a brutal sales slump caused by high gas prices and a faltering economy, the last thing the American auto industry needed was a credit crisis." The Times continued:
The virtual lockdown on credit is hurting Detroit's Big Three and other automakers at every level. More consumers cannot get auto loans. Dealers are hard-pressed to secure financing for new inventories. The auto companies themselves are running short of cash and can hardly afford to borrow more at interest rates as high as 20 percent.
It all adds up to an increasingly dismal forecast for the industry. Vehicle sales fell 11 percent in the first eight months of the year compared with 2007. But September sales, which automakers will report Wednesday, are expected to be down as much as 19 percent, according to the auto research Web site Edmunds.com.
University of California-San Diego economist James Hamilton noted in a December 3 blog post that November 2008 automobile sales were 40 percent lower than sales in November 2007. Hamilton wrote, "Remember that this volume decline is hitting an industry with huge fixed costs, and that these are decreases relative to 2007." Hamilton further stated that "we may be on the cusp of much more dramatic adjustments in this sector than anything seen so far." Moreover, an October 2 New York Times article reported:
For the first time since 1993, automakers sold fewer than a million new cars and trucks in a single month in the United States, as a reeling economy scared people away from showrooms in September, and many eager buyers were unable to get loans.
With industry sales dropping 26.6 percent over all compared with a year ago, car companies are likely to cut more production and jobs to compensate for falling revenues.
The credit crisis contributed heavily to the steep decline -- analysts estimated that it cost the industry up to 100,000 vehicle sales in the final week of the month, on top of lost sales because of high gas prices and the shaky economy.
Auto executives said Wednesday that the industry faced more misery ahead until a bailout package was passed in Washington.
"We feel it is critical," said Michael C. DiGiovanni, chief sales analyst for General Motors. "If it doesn't happen, it's going to set off a continuing downward spiral in the economy."
Nearly every automaker posted double-digit declines. Sales were down 34.5 percent at the Ford Motor Company, 32.8 percent at Chrysler, 32.3 percent at Toyota and 24 percent at Honda.
Yet despite this, numerous conservative and mainstream media figures have advanced the suggestion that autoworkers and the United Auto Workers (UAW) are solely or primarily responsible for the financial woes that the automakers face, often citing the false claim that autoworkers earn $70 or more per hour, ignoring management decisions that have driven the companies to the edge of collapse.
Ignoring market trends favoring fuel efficiency
The credit freeze and recession, further limiting automobile purchases, are only among the most recent problems facing the auto industry. Industry resistance to the development of more fuel efficient and marketable cars long preceded these economic issues. Indeed, GM itself cited "shifts in consumer preferences ... away from fullsize trucks and utility vehicles" as a cause of its economic problems. From the 2007 annual report:
In North America, the turmoil in the mortgage and credit markets, continued reductions in housing values, high energy prices and the threat of a recession have had a negative impact on consumer's willingness to purchase our products. These factors have contributed to lower unit sales in North America in 2007 and, combined with shifts in consumer preferences towards cars and away from fullsize trucks and utility vehicles, have negatively impacted our results as such larger vehicles are among our more profitable products.
During the December 7 edition of CBS' Face the Nation, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman said to host Bob Schieffer, "Go on a college campus today, Bob. How many young people do you see driving Pontiacs? You know, you don't see it. That's the core problem. They haven't made cars people want to ride." Friedman later added:
FRIEDMAN: [W]hat they did was they tried to create a universe, basically, where gasoline would be cheap and you could only or would only have to sell and make those big cars. So just remember a couple of years ago, as gasoline prices rose, what was their response? Was it to move immediately to electric cars or more efficient cars? No, they came out with a program for a $1.99-cent a gallon of gas for a year if you bought a Hummer or a Yukon or a Suburban. It was like a crack dealer saying, "Bob, I'm going to guarantee you free crack or reduced crack for a year." It wasn't, "I'm going to get you off your addiction." And so that was -- they created a universe, and then they tried to protect it. And then the world, basically, impinged on them with higher energy prices and many other higher costs.
Discussing fuel economy standards in January 30, 2007, testimony before the Senate Energy Committee, Walter McManus, director of the Automotive Analysis Division of the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute (UMTRI), stated, "Our research shows for almost a decade consumers have placed a much higher value on fuel economy than Detroit automakers has given it. But Detroit automakers ignored even their own data." McManus later stated:
Our study found that the consumer value of fuel economy rose each year in direct proportion to the rise in the real price of gasoline. Without some action to offset this trend, demand would have shifted away from large SUVs as early as 2003. What Detroit did (starting immediately after 9/11) was cut their vehicles' prices, and the least fuel efficient vehicles had the biggest price cuts. These cuts in prices offset the fall in what consumers would pay for their vehicles as gasoline prices rose. Consumers would have switched earlier, but Detroit kept making better and better offers they could not refuse as gasoline prices rose from 2002 to 2005. And, as a result, while sales continued to look good, Detroit was experiencing a massive erosion of profits.
Hurricanes Katrina and Rita sent regular gasoline prices shooting over $3 per gallon (nominal) in 2005 and the expectation of other supply disruptions kept the price high (nominal, year over year) for much of 2006. This time Detroit could not offer enough discounts and incentives to prevent a dramatic and sudden shift of American new-vehicle buyers from gas guzzling SUVs and large cars to fuel-efficient cars, crossover vehicles, and hybrids. For the first time since 1981, the truck share of sales fell in 2005 and 2006. (From 1981 to 2004 the truck share grew from 19% to 56%. The truck share fell to 55% in 2005 and to 52% in 2006.) More significantly, for the first time since 1991, the actual number of trucks sold fell in 2005 (by 79 thousand units) and again in 2006 (by nearly 2 million units).
This began a financial freefall for Detroit that has implications for the entire U.S. economy. Less than two years ago, UMTRI released a study that focused on Detroit's vulnerability to rising fuel prices. Both the industry and the media dismissed our findings. We predicted that if gasoline were to hit $3.37 per gallon it would cause $11 billion in losses for Detroit. We underestimated Detroit's vulnerability -- so far the gasoline price spike has cost close to $25 billion in losses, along with thousands of jobs.
In a November 14 article in The New Republic, Jonathan Cohn wrote, "Detroit steadily lost business to companies like Honda and Toyota that managed to make cars more efficiently -- and figured out, early on, that rising gas prices would increase demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles."
Failure to work for health care reform
During his December 7 Face the Nation appearance, Friedman said, "Look, do you remember when Hillary Clinton was pushing her national health care program?" and continued:
FRIEDMAN: Do you -- did you see the auto companies out there saying, "We need a national health care program. After all, we have these huge burdens of health care costs"? No, they were fat, dumb and happy then. Now they tell us, "Oh, it's terrible. We've got these health care costs. Woe is me." But were they out there campaigning for a national health care plan that they would've been the biggest beneficiaries of?
No. They were brain-dead, and it's a travesty that the American people are in this terrible choice today which the two senators outlined, which is either we bail out people who really don't deserve to be bailed out -- by the way, one of these car companies, let's remember, is a private equity firm, Cerberus Capital. We're going to be bailing out a private equity firm.
Indeed, Rep. James McDermott (D-WA) in a December 15, 2005, statement on the floor of the House of Representatives, introduced a letter he said was sent to the Canadian government separately by officials from Chrysler, Ford and General Motors expressing support for publicly funded health care in Canada. In the letter, automotive industry officials wrote, "Publicly funded health care also enhances Canada's economic performance in several important ways," and that "Employers in the auto industry, meanwhile, enjoy significant total labour cost savings because most health care services are supplied through public programs (rather than through private insurance plans)." Introducing the letter, McDermott said, "That is the U.S. auto industry acting outside the United States. It is time for them to act inside the United States and for us to act. "
And in fact, the $70 or more per-hour labor cost figure often cited by conservatives to attack and scapegoat the UAW includes wages and benefits -- including health care -- for current and retired employees.
Ignoring the UAW's recent concessions
Further, in scapegoating unions and employees, media accounts often fail to acknowledge significant concessions that unions have made to the automakers in recent years. In his November 14 New Republic article, Cohn noted:
But what's missing in the tsk-tsk editorials is any recognition that the culture of Detroit has been changing, however belatedly, starting with its labor relations. Ford led the way years ago by reaching site-specific "competitive operating agreements" with locals at different plants, rather than sticking to one national agreement, thereby enabling it loosen work rules and engage in the sort of collaborative quality management on which industry leader Toyota made its reputation. Then, last year, the UAW reached a breakthrough agreement in which it granted the companies similar flexibility, agreed to a two-tier wage structure for new hires, and set up a separate trust fund to finance future retiree health benefits. The companies would provide the initial money for this trust, but, henceforth, the unions would manage it--thereby taking off the companies' books a tremendous burden that had, on its own, accounted for about half the gap in compensation between unionized workers for the Big Three and non-unionized workers for foreign-owned automakers. "I think they've shown unprecedented ability to change and transform the union," says Kristin Dziczek, who directs CAR's Automotive Labor and Education program. "They understand what is at stake."
During a December 4 hearing of the Senate Banking Committee, Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA) also noted numerous concessions the UAW has made in recent years:
Point number one: In 2005, cuts in wages for active workers and health-care benefits for retirees -- point number one. I'm reading from your testimony. Cuts for new workers, bringing the wage level down to 14 bucks an hour. How many industries are doing that? Reducing the company's liability for retiree health care by 50 percent. And I realize these have been in the record before, but it is very important.
And wages and benefits. You said yourself that they're about 10 percent -- 10 percent of the budget? You would think listening to some of the people talk out there, some of the so-called experts, that wages and benefits were 70 percent of the cost. So there's a lot of mythology, a lot of myth generally that has been put on the record.
In 20 -- since 2003, downsizing by the companies has reduced their workforce by 150,000 people. That doesn't get said very often. The labor-cost gap with foreign transplant operations will be largely or completely eliminated. OK? So, it's -- I think it's important to put this information on the record for this hearing. And then we've heard this garbage about 73 bucks an hour. It's a total lie, and some people have perpetrated that deliberately in a calculated way to mislead the American people about what we're doing here. It's a lie, and they know it's a lie.
Media Matters has identified numerous instances of media blaming the UAW and autoworkers for the financial problems at Chrysler, Ford, and GM:
- In his November 11 column, nationally syndicated columnist Cal Thomas wrote:
The latest, but by no means the last supplicant at the public trough, is the auto industry, which wants a bailout to save jobs because its cars are not selling. There is a reason for that and it can be summed up in five words: The United Auto Workers Union.
Half of the $50 billion the auto industry wants is for health care for its current and retired employees. This is the result of increasing UAW demands, strikes and threats of strikes unless health care and pension benefits were regularly increased. While in the past UAW settled for some benefit decreases while bargaining with the Big Three U.S. automakers, according to the Wall Street Journal in September 2006, "on average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers." Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down a paltry $26.65.
- During a CNN report that aired on the November 17 edition of Anderson Cooper 360 and the November 18 edition of CNN Newsroom, reporter Randi Kaye said: "It is the engine that's supposed to keep automakers running. But some say the United Auto Workers Union has helped bring the Big Three to a grinding halt. UAW workers earn as much as $75 an hour, including pension and future health care. James Sherk, a fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, calls the contract greedy." Kaye then aired a clip of Sherk saying: "Every so often management will try to insist on more competitive contracts and then you'll have the unions go on strike. Rather than take billions and billions of dollars in losses, management caves."
- As Media Matters documented, during the November 19 broadcast of his Westwood One radio show, Lars Larson said: "When you're paying $73.73 an hour to those people with salary and benefits and your competition is paying $48 to its workers, you're going to get your butt kicked in the marketplace unfortunately."
- During the November 20 edition of CNBC's Squawk on the Street, Sherk claimed, "You've got to look for the union label to understand why the Big Three are going under. The UAW, they're insisting on $75 an hour in wages and benefits for their workers. That's triple what most Americans earn. They insist on provisions like the jobs bank where they want their members to get full pay, six-figure salaries to sit around and play Trivial Pursuit and not work. No company can bear up under that kind of competitive burden. And the Big Three haven't been able to."
- In his November 23 El Paso Times column, Joe Muench wrote: "Here's why an auto giant may well come to El Paso: Detroit is being crippled by union demands, workers making $70 an hour, plus benefits we dream await us only in heaven. They can't make a car in Detroit, anymore, for the price of a three-bedroom ranch-style house. We don't need $70 an hour because we've never dreamed of making $70 an hour. And benefits? We're in heaven if the insurance company actually covers most of a bill."
- In his November 26 syndicated column, Ben Shapiro wrote: "General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler are in danger of bankruptcy. It isn't because they lack the technical know-how or the manufacturing capacity -- it's because the United Auto Workers have made the cost of labor untenable. Writing Nov. 19 in the New York Times, former Michigan Gov. Mitt Romney stated that because of the UAW, American cars cost an average of $2,000 more to make than foreign cars. The average UAW worker makes $75 per hour in salary and benefits, as compared to $42-$48 per hour for workers in Japanese plants in the United States."
In addition, Media Matters has documented numerous examples of media figures repeating the falsehood that autoworkers at Chrysler, Ford, and GM are paid $70 or more per hour.













The attack by these media types like Cavuto on low income and minorities has been the most disturbing.
JLyons,
And if everyone would read Paul Krugman "The Conscience of a Liberal".... many Americans would be able to see that these "movement conservatives" or aka: rightwing blowhards and corporate whores have only their own interests in mind and not that of America or her people...
Central planning is always at fault. There are going to be rich people, poor people, and people in the middle. I have the right to be as rich as I want to be. And if others CHOOSE to work for me for very little money and they don't like their situations perhaps they should go back to school so they can get better jobs. There are always other people in line waiting to take those low paying jobs.
Thank you Mr. Know-It-All!
I am going back to school to become a proctologist. My first opperation will be to remove Mr. know it alls noodle from his nether region before it gets soggy.
Noodle's comment can be boiled down to, "Are there no workhouses?"
Or "I hope Mom & Dad let me keep living at home at least through Christmas."
That rant did sound a little like the defense in the Triangle Shirtwaist fire case. Weekends and living wages be damned and let the robber barons alone! Nobody reads history anymore.
"There are going to be rich people, poor people, and people in the middle."
The more poor people, the better? Who is going to buy your product or service if there are no more living wage earners who can afford it?
"And if others CHOOSE to work for me for very little money and they don't like their situations perhaps they should go back to school so they can get better jobs."
Are they going to find "better jobs" from other employers who think like you do?
"There are always other people in line waiting to take those low paying jobs. "
And they often don't have a Social Security number.
Changed your screen name, eh?
Yeah, you have the right to get as rich as you want to be and I have the right to join a labor union so I can collectively bargain for better wages.
Yeah, those mean ol middle class to poor people, always getting in the way of corportate profit. They should just be like the chinese and work for substandard wages on dangerous equipment in polluted environments and just keep their mouths shut.
Agreed. What a lot of nerve people have to demand the fruits of their own labor! Just because workers produce the wealth (CEOs don't assemble cars), doesn't mean they should get any share of the profit.
Can we go back to slavery?
The righty talkers position on the auto situation is pretty amusing.The same people who were completely incapable of getting their brains in contact with the idea of somebody supporting the troops while opposing the war have come up with a theme of supporting the workers while opposing the unions. I've heard El Lushbo and Hannity both use this one.
These morons have had almost complete control over the government, the media and the airwaves for most of the last eight years yet they somehow allowed the perverts, dirty foreigners and sweaty union thugs to totally screw the economy up.
Americans can't be stupid enough to believe this, can they?
Not all of them, King. Just the "Real Americans". BTW, for us Non-Real-Americans, that term should automatically translate to Real-Stoopid-Americans as soon as it passes the lips of a Bachmann or Hannity.
ps- noticed you took the Hate Horse out for a spin.
The nag was needing some exercise. So I trotter her around the track a few times,trying to sniff out someone back under a different ID.
Excellent.
I want two. I am nuilding a moon beam powered auto plant and I need labor.
should do what I do. Ignore the schmucks. they lost the election after ei9ght years of taking the money and running ( no bid contracts, etc ) And please, Mr Obama, maintain your direction and don't fall into the dreed and power grab characterised the bush administration. Get our troops out but not too far.
Well they're certainly defending their class against the great unwashed. The way its going, someday it will be; one talking mouth, one listener. The talker will make millions, the listener, semi employed, but still knowing that the voice in his ear is indeed talking to him and somehow grateful for that voice.
Oh please, like some liberals never engage in class warfare. The "evil, greedy rich", the "evil, rich greedy corporations". Spare me the outrage, clean up your own house first.
Who's outraged today, Tommy?
Fine, you don't like the term "outrage", how about hypocritical whining?
Being newly unemployed thanks to my company outsourcing production I think I'd take offense to that remark.
Class warfare is class warfare, regardless of which "class" is being attacked, that is my point. Of course, some conservatives use poor people as a scapegoat for societal ills, but some liberals use rich people as a scapegoat for what's wrong as well. It's a sword that cuts both ways, and solves nothing.
I am sorry you are unemployed Snoop, I'm sure you will be employed soon, it has happened to me in the past as well, so I know.
Well if this is class warfare, then the rich are in trouble. There are a lot more of us in the middle and lower classes then there are of them.
As I've always said, "If this is class warefare, who fired the first shot?" If the poor and middle class ask for their fare share it's "class warfare". If a rich person finds a way to claim more profit for himself, then it's smart and clever. The Cons disdain for the very people who create wealth with their labor in this country could not be laid more bare.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Exhibit A - Class warfare at it's finest. Thank you Scott.
How is it class warefare? Please explain. Of course, you never explain your crazy opinions, so I'm not holding my breath.
Come on Scotty, you wallow and soak in it, so it's hard to breathe and cleanse yourself of it. Based on your total immersion, I am not surprised you can't see it, don't worry.
Class warfare is class warfare, regardless of which "class" is being attacked
Oh, those poor rich people. I guess they'll just have to have a good cry in their $200 monogrammed handkercheif.
some liberals use rich people as a scapegoat for what's wrong as well
Well, hopefully you can admit that it is the wealthy who control the means of production and make decisions regarding business policy.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Exhibit B - Class warfare at it's finest. Thank you Fog.
Again, Tommy misses the point. It's not class warfare because the poor can't really do anything to affect the rich. The employees can't fire the boss. So again your semantics-driven drivel is off the mark.
Thank you for at least being consistent.
Tommy, do you think slaves and slave owners were equally responsible for stirring up racial tensions?
Hmmm? No.
I guess your point here Colonel is that conservatives are slave owners and liberals are slaves. If that's what you think.......
I think the point is that rich people have more power and influence.
Obviously
Then you would understand that the people with power and influence have the means by which to make themselves even richer.
So you're saying that those without power and influence have no means by which to make themselves richer?
Sorry, don't agree at all with that.
I didn't say that, but that's an impressive bit of absolutism.
What I'm saying is that it's largely a zero-sum game. If the CEO of your company takes a 25 million dollar bonus, that money comes from somewhere. Someone takes a hit. If people are downsized, or cut to part-time, etc, then they are made poorer. That dynamic exists whether some poor people are better able to excel or not.
Right?
I have absolutely no idea what any of that has to do with certain political ideologies playing the class warfare card, which is the point of this thread, and to which I responded that it is done with regularity on both sides. If you happen to think rich people deserve it more, or whatever, then you just proved my point.
It doesn't really have that much to do with ideologies, or at least it shouldn't. I'm talking about class warfare, which happens to be mentioned in the headline of this thread. No "off-topic" opportunity for you here, sorry.
I'm not proving your point at all. If you make an effort to comprehend, you'll see why. The rich have the control. That's the slaveowner analogy in a nutshell. If they make efforts to make themselves richer at the expense of the poor and middle-class, then they are in fact increasing poverty. So the one side's complaint is certainly understandable. On the other hand, the rich (conservatives, in your example) blame the poor for societal ills. But if the rich are exacerbating the poverty situation, then they hold the blame for that as well, if that complaint is to be taken seriously in the first place. Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there.
So there's no equivalence here, because both sides don't have the same power. The rich can take money from the poor, but the poor have no means by which to take money from the rich. All they can do is gain some ground on a personal level.
"Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there"
How?
"The rich can take money from the poor"
Huh? Wow. That makes no sense at all.
Break time.........
You said they blame the poor for societal ills. If you alleviate povery, why would the societal ills not be alleviated as well?
They can take money from the poor because they have power and influence. You didn't dispute that, so I'm not sure how you fail to make the connection now.
As I said to Worrier below, I don't care about all your societal rich vs poor nonsense. It comes down to respect, period. I don't look down on someone making minimum wage anymore than a rich CEO, provided they both are honest, hard working. Their economic status has no relevance. Which is why I don't engage in class warfare on any level, and if I have in the past then I apologize. I don't categorize people by how much money they make and then pit one against the other, or treat them any differently based on their respective paychecks.
If you can't grasp that, too bad.
I don't know who demonizes people who got wealthy through their own diligence and ingenuity, and who make an effort to treat their workers fairly. So it's not just about hating people because they're rich, obviously. That's sort of the point. Wanting fairness is a legitimate goal, and isn't class warfare. When people talk about rich people being greedy, that actually means greedy. It's about actions, not just economic status.
I'll be back in a while, we'll see if you can grasp the point by then.
Just so you know, you don't have to keep announcing your departures and arrivals, it's no big deal...
I don't respect greedy in rich, nor do I respect it in poor. As I keep repeating, economic status is not relevant. You are having trouble seeing the bigger picture here and keep focusing on rich vs poor, powerful vs powerless. I am telling you it's about respect and dignity, based on character. It's quite simple, for me at least.
So if people here don't respect greed either, then why is it class warfare for us to say so?
This is an interesting exchange;
"When people talk about rich people being greedy, that actually means greedy. It's about actions, not just economic status."
"I don't respect greedy in rich, nor do I respect it in poor. As I keep repeating, economic status is not relevant."
So when I say it's about actions, I'm missing the "bigger picture" because you're talking about character. As if actions aren't defined by character? I find it amusing that you thought you were proving some point of your own when basically you repeated what I said, while pretending that I'm engaging in class warfare.
Brab,
Wanting fairness is all well and good, but you are arguing to take from the rich and give to the worker. Unless it is done through supply and demand and bargaining what you are calling fairness is really just a euphamism for socialism.
It looks to me like you are arguing class warfare, by some method of taking from the rich, whom you think are greedy, and giving those profits to the workers.
How you can argue that is not class warfare does not make sense to me.
oops. euphamism = euphemism
The spelling wasn't your biggest goof in that post, not by a mile. Don't even sweat the spelling.
Of course it's class warfare AA, great post, well said. Not to worry about the spelling goof, nobody would worry about that......
Class warfare is pretending auto workers make $75/hour when they don't in order to smear working-class people.
>>Unless it is done through supply and demand and bargaining what you are calling fairness is really just a euphamism for socialism
Bargaining is what unions are there for and no its not socialism.
I didn't say all the rich are greedy. Those that are engage in class warfare, and so validate that complaint from the poor.
I also don't think I said anything about taking anything from anyone, but that's not socialism anyway.
I agree with you that the rich have the power. The rich become that way for a variety of reasons, some reasons being through hard work and brilliance and some reasons being luck, circumstance or corruption.
What I have trouble following is the complaining about the fact that the rich have the power. That's like complaining that the sun rises in the East. It's going to rise in the East whether you complain about it or not. It is what it is.
Power is not the problem, it's the abuse of power. Because power will always exist, and somebody will always have it. And why shouldn't the power go to those who have risen to the top? Somebody else deserves it more?
It's the abuse of power that society needs to control and should be able to control.
It's because to some, particularly those that engage in class warfare, power cannot exist without it being abused. The two are not mutually exclusive. Rich people for the most part screw poor people and are only rich because they shaft the system, or inherit their wealth, have no morals, work poor people to the bone and sit on their yachts counting their money and being obnoxious.
So to separate the good from the bad, as you explained with great eloquence Bruce, is essential in elevating the dialogue from evil rich vs. preyed upon poor. Some prefer to blur the distinctions all the time to validate their own game of class warfare.
Sad.
Wow. Tommy said something that was actually true. It's a day to be celebrated.
How is my talking about greed different from you talking about "abuse of power" in this context?
"If they make efforts to make themselves richer at the expense of the poor and middle-class, then they are in fact increasing poverty. So the one side's complaint is certainly understandable. On the other hand, the rich (conservatives, in your example) blame the poor for societal ills. But if the rich are exacerbating the poverty situation, then they hold the blame for that as well, if that complaint is to be taken seriously in the first place. Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there...So there's no equivalence here, because both sides don't have the same power. The rich can take money from the poor, but the poor have no means by which to take money from the rich. All they can do is gain some ground on a personal level."
The emphasized words should make it clear that I'm not generalizing, nor am I criticizing the concepts of wealth and power.
I should have made it more clear that I wasn't disagreeing with your post I was just making a general comment.
Yes, your first paragraph and the first sentence of your second paragraph sets up a very clear disparity. You agree with me, then you don't understand something I was talking about, which gave me the impression that it was at that point that you disagreed with a misperceived sentiment of mine. I see your meaning in light of your clarification, and I appreciate that.
Part of the problem also is that Tommy pretty clearly didn't get your meaning, and since you weren't around to correct him that silence reinforced the impression. Again, I do appreciate the clarification.
Well Bruce may agree with you but your point is ridiculous. You say the rich make themselves richer at the expense of the poor so they have noone to blame for societal's ills except themselves because they created the poverty in the first place? That is asinine logic, I have never heard anything so convoluted.
Since when does "making yourself rich", or becoming financially successful, come at the expense of those who are poor? Don't you realize that many rich people "make themselves richer" by expanding their business, growing their companies, which thereby employs more people, creating jobs. And your "spread the money around" is exactly what they are doing when they create opportunity and jobs, not having it taken from them through higher tax burdens and given to those who haven't earned it.
And if you think that "spreading the money around" is the cure to societal's ills, once again you reflexively fall back on the old liberal solution to throw money at everything and poof, fixed. We disagree.
You are utterly confused. Did you even make an attempt to read the post you responded to?
"If they make efforts to make themselves richer at the expense of the poor and middle-class, then they are in fact increasing poverty. So the one side's complaint is certainly understandable. On the other hand, the rich (conservatives, in your example) blame the poor for societal ills. But if the rich are exacerbating the poverty situation, then they hold the blame for that as well, if that complaint is to be taken seriously in the first place. Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there...So there's no equivalence here, because both sides don't have the same power. The rich can take money from the poor, but the poor have no means by which to take money from the rich. All they can do is gain some ground on a personal level."
I highlighted an extra section to help you out a bit. You're the one who brought up society's ills, because rich people blame poor people for them. That's what you said. The point, obviously, is if it's more of a level playing field, then the poverty is alleviated, and then they can't complain about any societal ills that come from that. They would have no such argument to make.
I didn't say it always comes at someone else's expense. Note the use of words like "if", they will help you understand the language better. I also didn't say anything about taxes at all. I'm talking about people being fair vs. people being greedy.
Go back through the conversation and see if you can make some effort at comprehension. Thanks in advance.
I said some rich people blame poor people, so. I also said I don't engage in such class warfare, so you are the one with the comprehension problem. And explain the "level the playing field" you are talking about. If it's not through taxes, what other redistribution method are you advocating? Please, be specific.
The rest of your post did nothing to refute or address what I just wrote, but nice try.
I didn't say you engaged in class warfare. I have no idea what you're talking about there. And because I said "rich people" instead of "some rich people", that prevented you from following the conversation at hand?
I already talked about a CEO being greedy, so I'm clearly talking about corporate policy. I didn't say anything about forced redistribution.
What "rest of my post" are you referring to? Everything I see is directly related to your previous post. Show me what you're talking about, please.
How do you propose to spread the wealth around or level the playing field? You say it's greed, and if rich people aren't greedy then problem solved, or something.
You speak in such generalities I am asking for specifics.
There's no specifics, because I'm not proposing any sort of plan. What are you confused about now?
I'm asking you for specifics as well, because you said there's some point of yours I didn't address, or something I wrote didn't apply to your post or something like that. I would like to know what you were referring to.
"Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there."
"The point, obviously, is if it's more of a level playing field, then the poverty is alleviated"
LOL!!....Dodger. Why not be specific after making such recommendations?
Again, I was addressing your claim about what some Republicans say while engaging in class warfare. It's purely theoretical because that's the framework you established. It's about principle, not plans. I don't think you've gone back and re-read anything, as I've asked you to do for your own sake.
Do you not realize the stupidity of calling me a "dodger" while you've twice refused to answer a question about something you said?
You made the above claims but you absolutely refuse to elaborate on implementation. And you keep trying to divert your refusals by asking me a question, your typical dodge and shift technique. Which only makes your claims nothing but silly grandstanding platitudes, no beef.
When you care to answer come back and do so, otherwise take your dishonesty elsewhere.
What "claims" did I make? Are you seriously arguing that if the brass at a company cuts their paychecks and gives more to their workers that the workers don't then have more money? What elaboration on implementation is needed here? You don't like greed, neither do I, we agree that things would be better if there was less of it. Why you have a problem with accepting this is a mystery.
I'm not diverting anything. I answered your question, it's just your expecting something that I didn't promise in any way, shape or form. Meanwhile, you said that the rest of my post didn't address what you said, and I'd like to know what you meant by that. There's no way you can argue that request is unreasonable.
What "claims" did I make?
"Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there."
"The point, obviously, is if it's more of a level playing field, then the poverty is alleviated"
"Again, I was addressing your claim about what some Republicans say while engaging in class warfare. It's purely theoretical because that's the framework you established. It's about principle, not plans. I don't think you've gone back and re-read anything, as I've asked you to do for your own sake."
Can you address this, specifically?
Now, please tell me what "the rest of my post" missed. If you make the criticism, you should be able to back it up.
More dodging of the what you're advocating, now you say it's principle, not plans.
Too damn funny....
I never said or indicated anything about plans. Show me otherwise.
Your entire point is wrapped up in "spreading the money around" and "leveling the playing field", you said it. Now when asked on exaclty how to implement such declarations you made, you say well it's only in theory, or principle. So, in other words they are empty liberal platitudes without the beef. Put up or shut up, and I mean that in the nicest way.
Or just stop responding, you're only sinking deeper and deeper with your cute little evasive techniques. Or is it you feel you only ask questions around here and are not obligated to answer any or backup what you claim? Sorry Suzy, that may work with some, but not me.
In response to what you said about how some rich people engage in class warfare. That's the context for the statements. Also remember I said "if this is a genuine concern in the first place" or words to that effect. I highlighted them for your understanding.
If I had just said that out of the blue, I would understand your confusion. But since it's contained within the framework you yourself set up, the meaning is clear. There's nothing to indicate I was advocating any specifics whatsoever.
Where are your specifics for how to stop class warfare? You were the one complaining about it on both sides to begin with. Was all of that "empty platitudes" as well? "I am telling you it's about respect and dignity, based on character." How, specifically, would you bring about that respect and dignity? No dodging allowed! Tell me your plan!
You've completely lost it. I've been more patient than what you deserve with your invalid question, while you've made no effort to answer a very clear and straightforward question about something you explicitly said. So for you to talk about me feeling that I don't have to answer questions but only ask them suggests you're in a highly emotional state or you're just plain dumb.
"Where are your specifics for how to stop class warfare?"
Lol.....You are now becoming incoherent and grasping at straws. I made no claim to know how to stop it, I just said I don't engage in it.
You will stop at nothing to further your dishonesty.
"I made no claim to know how to stop it"
Just as I never claimed I had a plan.
Check and mate.
You say check and mate? Hysterical.
You made the claims about spreading money and level the playing field. Yet, you refuse to explain it or specify how, then you lie and ask me to explain mine about stopping class warfare, when I never said any such thing.
If you're as bad at chess as you are here, stick to checkers.
You lie when you say I refused to explain. I explained quite clearly and repeatedly what I meant. If you don't like it, too bad, but you have made no attempt to show how what I said isn't true.
The whole point of asking you to explain your plan was that you never claimed you had a plan. "Duh", as you would say. You never said any such thing, just as I never said any such thing. How could this have been more obvious?
I have a national championship trophy on my desk. It's not in Chess, but I do know a little bit about strategy.
"I have a national championship trophy on my desk"
Congratulations. Perhaps you'd serve your colossol ego better by spending time polishing it, then you can move on to polishing up your argument skills to avoid embarrassments like the ones you've written today, on this and another thread.
I don't I've mentioned it before, it seemed like an appropriate time.
This is your problem, not mine. You're the one who built up all these strawmen and cried when they didn't match up to your perception of reality:
"You say the rich make themselves richer at the expense of the poor so they have noone to blame for societal's ills except themselves because they created the poverty in the first place?"
I never made that generalization, and the latter part had to do with the class warfare point you made.
"Since when does "making yourself rich", or becoming financially successful, come at the expense of those who are poor? Don't you realize that many rich people "make themselves richer" by expanding their business, growing their companies, which thereby employs more people, creating jobs."
I never made that generalization.
"And your "spread the money around" is exactly what they are doing when they create opportunity and jobs, not having it taken from them through higher tax burdens and given to those who haven't earned it."
I never said anything about taxes.
"And if you think that "spreading the money around" is the cure to societal's ills, once again you reflexively fall back on the old liberal solution to throw money at everything and poof, fixed. We disagree."
I didn't say it was "the cure to societal's [sic] ills". That was, again, in response to the class welfare argument you said some rich people made. And all that's just your first post today.
You were the one who was wrong about all of this. You made no effort to understand my point, and you're not man enough to accept the clarification. You're the one who called me a "dodger" when you wouldn't answer a question. You're the one who stupidly called me a liar when my intent couldn't possibly have been more obvious.
So where does it get you? You don't challenge my point. You don't establish any sort of integrity or maturity on your part. All it does is make you look like someone who can't read and gets all bent out of shape over that being pointed out.
Again, your problem, not mine.
"If they make efforts to make themselves richer at the expense of the poor and middle-class, then they are in fact increasing poverty"......Brab.
"You say the rich make themselves richer at the expense of the poor so they have noone to blame for societal's ills except themselves because they created the poverty in the first place?"...Tommy
"I never made that generalization".....Brab. Liar.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Make an effort to spread the money around, and then the societal ills wouldn't be there".....Brab.
"And if you think that "spreading the money around" is the cure to societal's ills....Tommy
"I didn't say it was "the cure to societal's [sic] ills"....Brab. Liar.
Check, mate, Done. Have a nice day.
IF they make efforts. That is conditional by definition, therefore it can't be a generalization. No check.
And again, the context of the second remark was your comment about the rich engaging in class warfare. If rich people think poverty is to blame for society's ills, then they have the power to change that by raising the standard of living of their employees, hiring more workers, etc. No mate.
Sorry, all this has been addressed. Your lame "liar" accusation bit your ass the first time, and this is just an attempt for you to save face.
Ass? Face?
No difference.
Oh, and I hope that strategy trophy isn't for debating, because if it was the runner-up got shafted. :)
It's for a board game. I've been to four world championships and beaten six world champions, on top of winning quite a few American tournaments. Again, not to brag, but it seems appropriate to mention it.
So this is all about an attempt to win an argument based on strategy and board games, instead of facts and reasoned opinion. Sorry, maybe that is the crux of our endless disagreements, I don't see issues and public policy as a stategic game.
No, the argument doesn't rely on board games. All arguments involve strategy. The board game was an aside.
Is that nonsense all you have left?
You worry about strategy to squirm and dodge around facts and play diversion games, it all makes sense now. I don't need too, but thanks.
Have you provided any facts here? What were they? You also know I haven't done any diversion here. It's been explained to you enough.
No, strategy is about anticipating what people are going to say, devising ways of pointing out the flaws in their tactics and arguments. You were trying this yourself, by trying to bait me into saying something about taxing the rich or into making some generalization about rich people. It's pretty low-level stuff, though, and most people know better than to fall for that.
On the other hand, when some idiot keeps insisting that you said something you didn't, what you can do is to turn it around and demand that they explain something they didn't say. If they're stupid enough, they might just point out that they didn't say it, and say that they don't have to answer your questions because of that. If they're exceptionally moronic, they'll even accuse you of lying for doing exactly what they were doing. Then you've got them.
Strategy is all about exploiting the weaknesses of your opponents. With you, I always have several options available.
" The rich become that way for a variety of reasons, some reasons being through hard work and brilliance and some reasons being luck, circumstance or corruption."
And they all achieved their station through the human threads of shared knowledge and inherited wisdom. Every last one of us; cooks, carpenters, artists, mechanics, CEO's we all contribute to the conditions for passing on constructive knowledge. The knowledge that creates wealth comes to us as a social construct, so why one deserves to amass wealth and power above so many others, while so many others suffer, is the question. The benefits born of this social construct that enables the creation of wealth, cannot be justly siphoned off by elites. The have it alls are no more special than the have littles who make our lives easier by paving our roads.
I mean, you do understand that at no point in our American history have we had a greater inequality of wealth than we have today, don't you? I don't think I need to tell you what happens to societies that become too top heavy, do I?
"And why shouldn't the power go to those who have risen to the top?"
Because this country was founded on the principles of equality. Because even our government (until the conservative notion of the unitary executive came along) was set up as three co-equal branches as a means to distribute equally the balance of power.
Now, go wash your nose. I believe it has been soiled from being planted up to your neck in the bowels of elitist ideology.
In terms of human value, I agree that the have-it-alls are no more special than the have-littles.
In terms of giving people responsibilities for leadership and power and decision-making, I would choose those who have risen to the top over those that have not. The resume' should matter in that regard.
Even in your example of government, most people that we send to Washington have been pretty successful prior to being elected. One of the biggest criticisms of GWB was that he failed at everything he tried prior to being elected. I agree that point has merit, that was an indicator that things wouldn't go well for him.
People build resume's over the course of time, and those that continue to succeed and build their resume's by excelling in leadership and power positions earn the right to be trusted with more and more power over those who are making our lives easier by paving roads, as you say.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
you seem to be equating the accumulation of wealth with success and even more insidiously, you associate that success with competence, legitimacy. It's false to assume that just because wealthy people have made it to Washington in the past that it ought to stay that way, or that material success is an indicator of leadership ability. You've been well scrubbed of our fundamental American values of equality by the power perpetuating myths of our own vulgar corporate Marxists. Well done.
While you would apparently rather choose someone for leadership who has garnered great wealth, I would do as our founders intended. I would choose for leadership the someone who demonstrates the requisite knowledge, the ability to inspire action and the empathy to represent the powerless.
But that's somewhat beside the point that I think you intentionally missed. My argument was about the dangers of wealth inequality and the power imbalance that threatens the foundation of our democracy.
Those without power and influence do have the means to make themselves richer Tommy. It's called organized labor, and the Republicans and the media are targeting them as the root of all evil.
Smells like Class warfare to me.
I am talking about those without power and influence who have made themselves quite rich and influential without benefit of organized labor, with entrepreneurialism, hard work and gritty determination to better themselves. It happens every day in this great country and anybody who would target them as the root of all evil are sadly misplacing their targets.
I agree. Some people can work hard and make themselves rich and powerful, but the overwhelming majority of us will punch a clock 'til the day we die.
And due respect for all should be the same, their economic class is irrelevant to that, as far as I am concerned.
It's called organized labor, and the Republicans and the media are targeting them as the root of all evil.
Thanks, WK, that's what I was talking about. thought it was clear, but Tommy seems too stuck in his Republicans=rich vs. Dems=poor mindset to have understood. That, and he's too busy telling others that they don't understand his equal "respect" for the rich and poor.
The rich have their leverage- money, political power- and the rest of us, middle, working class-- have ours- numbers. We could have much more of that political power, if it weren't for those hoodwinked into worshipping the wealthy at their own expense. Voting and organization are the power of the non-rich, and I guess if Tommy is unaware of the historical and constant efforts directed at minimizing that power, we'll probably disagree.
At least those people trying to scrape by on 1% of their bosses pay can go to bed at night knowing that they're respected.
Wow, you've just illustrated class warfare better than anyone else has done today Colonel. I know you think it's not, because when it's aimed at rich people it's deserved, and they should have thicker skin or something. But that is exactly what class warfare is.
And if you want to bash people differently based on their bank account, go ahead. I don't care to do so.
Our system then is based on class warfare. We're not a complete capitalist society. We're a bastardization of capitalism and socialism.
There are two segments to the equation, capital and labor. The two need to be in balance for the system to function and grow. "An" individual can reach the top, but "The" individuals don't have a chance unless they stand together.
That's how the nation grew a great middle class. A middle class that defeated the Robber Barons, the Nazi's and the Communists.
Today they're fighting the hardest fight imaginable, a fight amongst themselves.
I don't disagree with that. But I do not disrespect one class over another based on class, that is my point. Those that do, up or down, is a disservice to all.
"At least those people trying to scrape by on 1% of their bosses pay can go to bed at night knowing that they're respected"
Well, personally speaking, for me anyway, if I had the choice of being respected or patronized, I would choose respect any day of the week.
Based on your arguments, you will get neither here.
Bold stance, Tommy. I'll go out on a limb, too; If I had the choice between being respected or having a hot poker up my chute, I'd choose respect.
But your offer of lip-service respect in place of some sort of justice is just patronizing enough to qualify as class warfare. Not an illustration of it, but the promotion of it.
to make money one has to sell either ones time, a product or a service to someone else. If one has zero influence one will not sell any of the above to anyone else.
But some work hard to make themselves marketable and their skills attractive enough where they will be in a position to sell their time, their product or their services, and make money. That's where many rich people started, despite prevailing wisdom around here.
that is a different story. I believe that was missing in your post. Also what you say is true. It all boils down to marketing. Passing out resumes and filling out job apps is marketing when you boil it down to the bone.
But you are viewing people through an idealized model of the free market, where everyone is a rational actor on equal footing, behaving in one's own self-interest, buying and selling as fully informed individuals. You are operating from a mythological premise. If our times have taught us anything, it's that markets are not rational and neither are people.
More to the core of your moral argument about hard work and success. Some folks are just plain average no matter how hard they try. But that doesn't mean they are undeserving of sharing in the dream of earning enough for a decent home, reliable transportation, healthy food and a good education for their kids.
This struggle you falsely claim is class warfare is a struggle for average folks to achieve a state of well-being. Well-being is not about rich vs. poor. Well-being is about a living wage, it's about being free from the fear of a bankrupting illness because you can't afford health insurance. It's about retirement with dignity after a life of work.
For you to come along and blithely imply that those who have not achieved wealth have some manner of defect, is frankly, an insult to people who work two or three jobs just to get by. It smacks of condescending elitism. It says it's OK for employers to pay third world wages because, well darn it, they have just worked harder and possess a greater morality. And don't kid yourself, morality is THE core of your argument.
Yours is a conservative morality which states that the rich deserve their wealth because they are disciplined and therefore moral; and the poor deserve their poverty because they are undisciplined. Therefore, the poor are immoral.
Now, come tell me I'm ranting. Tell me I'm angry. Tell me you don't think some people deserve poverty. I know you will, you always do. You'll say anything to get out from under the weight of owning responsibility for your propagation of failed conservative market dogma.
"Yours is a conservative morality which states that the rich deserve their wealth because they are disciplined and therefore moral; and the poor deserve their poverty because they are undisciplined. Therefore, the poor are immoral"
Among most of the nonsense in your post, this is the topper. Please show me where I have ever said financial well-being, or wealth, has any connection to morality? That is ridiculous, I have never said that and do not believe it. I have said over that wealth and fat bank accounts do not garner any more respect from me than those with very little financial means, read what I've written before you pervert it to make your silly arguments.
And we do reward hard work in this country, depsite your wish that those who do not do so "deserve" something they haven't earned out of some misplaced desire for socialistic equality. Grow up.
That's funny. He, who pouts like a simpering child and basically calls me a socialist because he can't muster a principled defense of his conservative worldview, tells me to grow up. Very funny.
Show you where you ever said the impoverished deserve their poverty because they are not possessed of the discipline that creates wealth? It's implicit in your argument, you have so internalized that particular plenum of conservative cruelty to the point of being oblivious to your own callous worldview. I guess the flip side would be that you don't believe the wealthy attain their station through a disciplined work ethic. Go ahead and try to tell me that you do not equate discipline with morality.
All I'm saying is that hard work is not always rewarded with wealth because there are literally millions of hard working poor folks who remain impoverished because we, as a society, do not confer enough importance to menial laborers to include them in the sharing of a higher standard of living. There is permissiveness in our country that proclaims, despite hard work, the paying of living wages are not a moral obligation for employers.
Republicans, like Teddy Roosevelt, used to stand for a living wage: "We stand for a living wage. Wages are subnormal if they fail to provide a living for those who devote their time and energy to industrial occupations. The monetary equivalent of a living wage varies according to local conditions, but must include enough to secure the elements of a normal standard of living--a standard high enough to make morality possible, to provide for education and recreation, to care for immature members of the family, to maintain the family during periods of sickness, and to permit of reasonable saving for old age."
When did Republicans sell out their values?
No, that wasn't my point at all. We're talking about economic classes, not political groups.
You're free to do all of the hypocritical whining you want, I was just asking who you were describing as outraged.
Nice dodge of the point Colonel, but A for your patented cuteness... :)
Kettle, meet pot. Project much?
OK, that describes your post just as well.
I agree. Those tagged into the class ' liberals ' by those tagged into the class " conservatives ' should probably not be engaging in such activities if in fact those people are true americans and seek a higher calling. I hear the term " socialist ' quite a bit in the never ending struggle for power. We do have constitutional power in effect in this country and pledge allegiance to.
Who are you quoting?
Indirectly many on these boards over the years. I have been around long enough to have heard it over and over and over and ov.............
What I've heard is projection from the right. They use class warfare, demonizing unions, the poor, etc, all the time. When the left proposes raising taxes on the top 3%, Then we hear "class warfare" screamed from the right. Usually I hear that term from the right describing what they "think" the left is doing. (not what the left is really doing or thinking. When I hear people like Flush Limpaugh telling me what a "Liberal" thinks, I have to laugh. Like he knows anything about anything)
I just want to be sure of who you are accusing of class warfare.
It's liberal posters on a website vs. right-wing media heads who make thousands of dollars an hour.
Actually it's MMFA doing the accusing with this thread of theirs. As I said, clean up the liberal class warfare before you go crying about anyone elses.
"Actually it's MMFA doing the accusing"
Yes, it's in the headline, I can read. MMFA is also being specific as to who is doing it and what they are saying. You, however, are not.
Well if you want to deny class warfare exists with regard to some liberals, go ahead. It's evidenced here all the time, just look above at a few posts for textbook examples.
I'm not denying it. I'm making it clear who stands behind their accusations and isn't afraid to name names.
Glad you agree with my original point. Glass houses.....
If this were called cleanupyourownhouse.com that would be a relevant point.
You're right, it's "do as I say, not do as I do" around here.
Not really. MMFA's mission is clear. It doesn't have to carry the water for the other side. Find your own credible sources for that, if you can.
Dear media matters for (very little),
How about the leftists in congress allowing the former big three to operate like their competitors in Alabama, Mississippi, Indiana and the Carolina's? Free of damaging regulations, high labor costs so they can make the cars that Americans will buy.
Instead of brokaw's moronic notion of increasing taxes on fuel and cars, let Americans use our resources to get the economy moving. Drill baby drill!!
Oh and by the way 'undocumented' means 'illegal' immigrants.
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6
yeah, that's exactly why we have problems! If we didn't have regulations, we wouldn't be in one of the worst bailouts in american history!
Oh, wait, we didn't have any regulations in place...
Plowedcon, you seem to be getting stupider and more simplistic with age. By the time you die, you'll probably resemble a hybrid of Dennis Prager and a turnip.
What kind of mileage do you expect a
urnipa Pragus hybrid will get?
4 hectares to the hogshead, the way God decreed, and no activist judge shall redefine!.
I don't think Toyotas sell so well because the customers hate unions and clean air that much.
Proudconservative, you sound exactly like someone I love dearly but completely unable to offer a concise argument and resorts to repeating word by word the Limbaugh/Hannity radio rants. Which makes sense as you seem to allow the aforementioned buffons to perform the critical thinking skills for you. By the way, this person whom i love dearly also wraps himself up in the flag and actually does call himself a proud conservative. Good luck man, and I truly wish your fall is gentle.
I understand your sentiments and compassion, wolf. But even a recession that rivals the great depression, the loss of international status, and two seemingly endless wars are hardly a gentle fall, yet seem to have had little effect on those proud legions who are adamantly protective of their misconceptions.
If you really care, you'll start looking around for a handy 2x4...
I was just showing him how to be polite. teach by example. But i do have a 4X4 ready for use at a moments notice.
Wolf,
You think insulting a person's critical thinking skills is being polite?
Perhaps you should check your own. ;-)
yes. you got nothing to do with this cat fight. Drill,baby,drill is forever tied to a failed policy and repeating this shows lack of thinking. it is tactiucally suicidal, both economically and militarily to use up your resources first, spaecially in the global market, put on your thinking cap and examine what i just said.
For the record, Wolf, you didn't "insult" anybody's critical thinking skills. AA has resorted to this in his own defense, interpreting the exposure of his weak argument as an Ad Hominem attack. You were being polite, obviously realizing that they come from a world where lies are an equal and opposite counterpart to the truth.
Ok. The first place we will drill is in your back yard. Then we will put the toxic waste in your front yard. Then we will vent the exhaust from the machinery into your house so you and your family can absorb the particulate in your lungs. Lets drill baby drill!
...many conservative media figures have assigned blame to specific groups of less wealthy or less influential people -- the poor, minorities, undocumented immigrants, and union members...
Union workers have no influence? Funny.
"... less wealthy or less influential people..."
Or being the key word.
Or
They are neither less wealthy not less influencial, IMO.
nor not "not"
You think the average Union member is as wealthy as the average conservative media person? OK, that will be all.
Easy King, you put two ideas into one sentence. Could you format a table with column A and Column B for the Con-crete thinkers?
Sorry colonel, but tables would require someone from the carpenter's union and columns would require a union mason. My own area of expertise is in physics, I specialize in taking up time and space.
Conservative Republicans just do not get it.....There are larger numbers of Blue Collar Workers than the conservatives. They will never again win an election nationally if they continue to set different rules for Wall Street and Main Street!
There is a conflict. class warfare is one description of it.
You could also say that a group of people with a large amount of political power and a large amount of money, dislike any possible hindrence to aquiring more of both. Scapegoats are selected amoung groups that could be that hinderence. They are publicly attacked via problem du jour.
If that scapegoat population doesn't even know that they face annilation, then little real effort is involved by those powerful people.
In a way that is the issue. The media and the cons are not the friend of the american worker. In many ways they want nothing good for him. Yet they continue to sell themselves as the working mans friend. Its always a plus if you understand the real threat(s). The media management and the cons always encourage misinformation on threats.
The history of mankind has been basically a war between the haves and the havenots. Whoever had the power (money) had the armies and police protection necessary to stay in power and control the money. At first there was NO middle class, only the fabulously wealthy and the miserably poor. This status quo had to be maintained by any means necessary. (Oh, did I say "status quo"? Look up the term "conservative".) "Sire, there is a problem with "the people". They are all outside the gates, crying for food." (The "problem" was not that the people were starving, but that they were crying for some food.) "Don't the idiots realize I am the KING and can't be bothered with their miserable and selfish demands? I have WARS to fight!" And on and on...
I know I've said it before, but it's amazing how often conservatives take the opportunity to cite the founding fathers of this country, while seeming to completely forget why the hell they came over here. Hint: it wasn't because of the wealth being spread around back in Europe, and it wasn't because they were Kings tired of the class warfare being waged by the peasants.
good old neo-cons --- always blame the victim.
one thing i haven't heard even MENTIONED in connection with the "big three" bailout proposals/rationale is the fact that one of the first things the bush administration did when it took office in 2000 was to pass tax benefits for "vehicles/rolling equipment weighing more than 6000 pounds". within a few months of that announcement, gm came out with the "hummer".
and it wasn't a little tax cut. in my bracket (and i'm not rich), i could've gone out and "bought" a hummer and, after taxes, it'd have been free. same for the ford's answer to big --- the giant, super-sized suburban gleefully called an "expedition".
so the fed made a market. the us auto-makers made vehicles to fit it and the rest is history.
oh --- in the late nineties, when toyota and honda were developing the first true hybrids (prius and insight), with assistance from the japanese government to test which power train would be the best (electric, then gas=prius; gas, then electric=insight) --- toyota went to gm to see if they were interested in partnering with them to develop what became the prius. gm said "no dice --- no market".
blaming labor/uaw/sub-contractors/health-care costs etc. is all malarky. they built giant cars and trucks because bush etal equated those with the "american lifestyle" -- bush ran on big cars, poor fuel efficiency ("if we run short of oil, i'll just call my good friends in the middle east and tell them to turn up the spigot" --- campaign speech, 1999) and the GOD-GIVEN RIGHT of american moms to take the whole football team in the same vehicle she used to pick up the newspaper on sunday morning.
it ain't labor, dudes. they're just the ones paying for it. we can't allow our entire manufacturing base to die. what we can do is take over majority ownership, replace anyone over a sr. vp, replace the board of directors and reward utility, safety, low emissions, alternative energy usage etc etc.
and that's one of the functions of government, since only government has the authority to reward through manipulating tax benefits. and that's the truth.
Those darn Republicans. Why can't they just pay for all those mortgages that are about to go into default? They hate black people and Mexicans. Oh yeah, and the Jews too!
You might want to try out FreeRepublic,PFR. It's a website targeted at the very stupid and easily manipulated. I think your "gag" would get more than a few drooling LOL's there.