Media advance GOP talking point that UAW killed the auto bailout bill
SUMMARY: Media echoed the Republican accusation that the United Auto Workers union killed the $14 billion bailout for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. But The New York Times stated that it was Senate Republicans who "refused to support a bill endorsed by the White House and Congressional Democrats."
On December 12, both an Associated Press headline and MSNBC's Tamron Hall echoed the Republican accusation that the United Auto Workers (UAW) union prevented the passage of a $14 billion bailout for General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler. The AP headlined an article "Union balks and $14B auto bailout dies in Senate," while Hall asserted on MSNBC Live: "The deal fell apart because the autoworkers union refused to give in to Republican demands to reduce workers' wages." In fact, a compromise bailout bill supported by the UAW and the White House passed the House by a 237-170 vote. Then, in the words of Edmund L. Andrews and David M. Herszenhorn of The New York Times: "After Senate Republicans balked at supporting a $14 billion auto rescue plan approved by the House on Wednesday, negotiators worked late into Thursday evening to broker a deal, but deadlocked over Republican demands for steep cuts in pay and benefits by the United Automobile Workers union in 2009."
Cloture, which was opposed by a majority of Senate Republicans, failed in a 52-35 vote on December 11. As the Times reported in an earlier December 12 article, "The Senate on Thursday night abandoned efforts to fashion a government rescue of the American automobile industry, as Senate Republicans refused to support a bill endorsed by the White House and Congressional Democrats." The Times further reported that "[o]n Thursday morning, [Senate Minority Leader Mitch] McConnell [R-KY] dealt a death blow to the House-passed bill, giving a speech on the Senate floor in which he said that Republican senators would not support it largely because it was not tough enough." The Times quoted McConnell stating: "The administration negotiated in good faith with the Democratic majority a proposal that was simply unacceptable to the vast majority of our side because we thought it frankly wouldn't work.''
Nonetheless, Hall and the AP headline echoed the accusation by Republicans that the UAW killed the bailout, or as South Carolina Republican Jim DeMint is quoted as saying in The Washington Post, "It sounds like UAW blew up the deal."
From the 10 a.m. ET hour of the December 12 edition of MSNBC Live:
HALL: First this hour: Is it a dead end for the auto bailout bill? Maybe not. Breaking news in this hour: The White House is reportedly considering other options that include using money from that $700 billion bank bailout that Congress passed. So, how did we get to this point? The Senate voted down the bill late last night -- probably while you were sleeping -- by a vote of 52 to 35. The deal fell apart because the autoworkers union refused to give in to Republican demands to reduce workers' wages, in some cases possibly from $71 to $49. And the union said there would be no reductions before the current contract is up in the year 2011.
It seems as if the "REPUBS"have not gotten or have not read the memo,You lost and are still losing.
it was Senate Republicans who "refused to support a bill endorsed by the White House and Congressional Democrats."
Didn't take long for the obstructionists to take root and oppose anything sponsored by the Dem's. Let the stonewalling begin!
HEY, HALL!! It's $75! Or, $78.. get with the program!! Now that I've watched my daily dose of news, I can conclude that unions are evil, greedy crybabies and republicans are responsible, fair-minded and have everyones' best interest at heart!
This story is from an email that my mom sent me.... kinda speaks volumes...
A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford or GM) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .
The End.
Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US . The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
And somehow... it's the workers fault and are the ones that must take another financial hit..... nice!
Exactly what year are you and your "mom" living in to be spewing all of these phony myths? 1977?
It is simply not true that the American auto companies are still mindless behemoths. They have had a number of great years recently-- remember when everyone was praising them for responding to market demand vis a vis SUVs, trucks, etc.?
All auto companies are doing poorly right now in most markets. It's the economy-- and the fact that American cars are well built these days and don't need replacement! And let's not forget the better trade deals that foreign companies get all around the world-- they tariff our cars into non-existence in their own markets.
I'm so sick of these trite, dated, mindless, Chris-Matthews type lies about the American auto industry.
You seem to think that my posting this was about the auto industry as a whole.... besides... what world are you living in that you think that management is not the biggest problem?
If you read carefully... this is a story plainly and obviously aimed at the fact that the auto industries management.... not the workers... are to blame for all the crap that has happened to them... and it is done in a good, funny, but sad way.
Labor builds what management give them to build... and labor simply wants to be compensated for said work...
This story clearly gives an example of just how bad the management have failed the industry they have tried to manage.. with all their layers of supervisors and assistant managers, VP's, etc, etc.
It is time to give the unions a seat at the Board of Directors meetings so that labor has a say in what should be done!
Unions don't speak for labor---unions speak for unions!
Which is a union of laborers, hence unions speak for labor.
Semantics does not an argument make.
That wasn't semantics it was logic. Your post was fiction. So I'm going to give a split decision on this little argument;
On Planet Earth, Roundhouse wins-- his comment contained truth and logic.
On Planet Wingnut, Sigtek wins-- A tautological fiction, based on right wing propaganda, followed by an exclamation point, the written equivalent of screaming the obvious.
Unfortunately for you, Sigtek, we're on Planet Earth, and your victory on Planet Wingnut is meaningless.
Wow. That's all I have to say.
Thank you for coming to roundhouse's rescue, Col. Appearantly Roundhouse cannot defend himself. "you can give a man a fish and he can eat for a day or you can teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for life". If you are trying to teach roundhouse to "fish" then I have solved a mystery. It was Col. Harlan Sanders who taught Karen Carpenter how to "fish".
Roundhouse didn't need any rescuing, any more than the home team needs to bat in the bottom of the ninth when they're up by 10 runs. I was just trying to be helpful by pointing out the flaw with your comment.
I was "giving you a fish", but hoping that if I explained how I caught the fish, you might be able to catch the next one.
It was semantics---the obvious point to anyone, 'ceptin of course, you, is that the UAW exists first, for the UAW and second, for the union worker. The UAW cannot exist without union workers but workers can and do exist without the UAW---precisely my point in examining the "insightful" fairytale put forth by captfoster2. Let me ask you, Col. How can a post be fiction? And who retired leaving you as final arbitrator?
How can a post be fiction?
By containing stuff that isn't fact
And who retired leaving you as final arbitrator?
Nobody, I was just calling this one as a hobby, and a service to you.Do you understand, Iwasn't rescuing Roundhouse, he's fine. I was trying to rescue you, but I can't do it without you trying a little bit.
Roundhouse stated the union is a union of laborers and therefore speaks for the laborer---my point was the UAW, who collects hundreds of millions of dollars on behalf of the union laborers, is more interested in the entity which in effect garnishes(voluntarily) the wages, than the welfare of the union laborers themselves[i.e. when union demands aren't met, a strike often ensues ]leaving the union laborer with strike wages only, often for years but the UAW(in this case) continues to pay it's stewards and union officials. My post was not ficticious and to "score" the discourse between roundhouse and myself was patronizing at best. True discourse means people with different viewpoints debating those points. If only liberal views are allowed what fun would that be?
I understood the point you were trying to make. I just don't think you did a very good job of making it.
If only liberal views were allowed, that wouldn't be any fun at all. It would be like one of those right wing sites.If nobody was allowed to point out the problems with conservative views, that wouldn't be any fun either. Is that what you want?
Exactly what year are YOU living in Carlileb? US auto makers may not be mindless but they are behemoths. Here are some numbers you can let swirl around inside your noggin:
GM vs Toyota
Another from America's coloring book:
Toyota surpasses Ford in sales
You are correct about the tariffs but Detroit has been fighting with one hand tied behind their backs since the '70's. At some point you have to adjust.
Nice story but you left out the greatest sticking point---the UAW---Ya should'a inserted UAW as the ones with the great ideas on how to "fix" the American canoe, but ya didn't---nice try!
Now that some of us are pushing back on the establishment media B.S. about $70 an hour wages, I see that some conservative commentators have decided to simply magnify their lie. Newt Gingrich on C-SPAN's Washington Journal the other morning raised the wage to $80 an hour, and I have heard the same figure in the past couple of days from other conservative misinformers. The amount of anti-union animus I am seeing is truly startling, including even that of a PBS interviewer on The NewsHour.
The pundits keep saying the inflated figure but what really is the average hourly wage of a typical UAW employee?
It's $55 an hour including benefits vs $45 an hour including benefits. I've posted the thread detailing that in the other thread on this subject.
Thank you.
Where are all those who've been bitching about "class warfare" when it comes to taxing the rich?
Senators should not be involved in dictating compensation.
That's class warfare.
I disagree Worrier, you are right - Senators have no business dictating compensation, but in this circumstance when it comes to giving our money away, they definitely have every right for a say.
They've already given their reasons. They declared war on the working class.
End of story.
My point went to accountability and those in charge of spending our money and bailing out companies. If we have a financial stake, then we have a managerial stake as well. Those companies that don't want government's intrusion into their companies are certainly free to find their own private financing, in fact I would encourage it.
Yeah, king. Like they did with AIG...
No argument from here, they should have.
And yet they didn't. I don't recall McConnell, Shelby, Corker, or Vitter sermonizing about responsibility while they were rushing to give $700B to their financial-services-industry buddies; maybe because there was no union to bust in that industry?...
I said I have no love for any of the ones you mentioned. But just because they basically wrapped up the $700b in a package with a kiss and gave it away doesn't mean I want them to do it again. Two wrongs don't make this mess right.
WTF?! Are you kidding?!!
How is LOANING someone $14B the same as GIVING someone $700B??!!
THIS DEAL was being done the way the TARP should have been - You want the money? You take the strings attached.
The Auto Companies gave Congress everything they asked for. The Dem's gave the Pub's everything they asked for. And the UAW has ALREADY given the Big 3 what they needed. (Wow, they'd didn't want to pull ahead a pay-cut in the middle of a recession and a credit crisis. OMFG!)
The bottom line is this - The Republicans in the Southeast want to PROTECT the FOREIGN automakes who put plants in their states. (Mercedes, BMX, Honda, Toyota, NIssan ALL have plants in the SE.) By killing Detroit these idiots think that MORE business will come their way. Of course they're not taking into account the effects that their inaction will have on the WHOLE ECONOMY... but then, it's not the first time the Republicans have demonstrated a limited understanding of macro-eceonimcs.
The 'Pub's in the SE would not have supported this NO. MATTER. WHAT. They bent over (backwards?) to get the Foreign Automakers into their state, but they can't even give a LOAN to the american companies. Class warfare is just a bonus to them. They want to KILL DETROIT just to help the foreign firms. (Even though it won't.)
Buy American, indeed.
It's about principle, not dollar amounts. I don't care if it's 700 billion or 700 dimes.
It's about principle, not dollar amounts.
How about the "principle" of a multi-trillion dollar economic collapse all over the world? You guys can can your "principles." Look where they've gotten us so far.
Where was this principle when the white collar criminals who cultivated this mess came to DC with their hands out? It's just pathetic. You and other GOP nincompoops are using a crisis to justify union busting because union members vote Democratic and unions endorse Democrats. The ultimate stupidity of this move is that those same people will still vote Democratic, with or without a union, and more importantly Obama showed everyone that the Internet is a more important grass roots tool than union affiliations. Plus you're siding with Hoover-nomics. If the Big Three go under, the GOP will carry the blame for obstructing for political spite. The memo obtained on Wednesday is the smoking gun the GOP committed suicide with.
Randy
So you are OK with the 700 B for financial firms and not OK with 14/25 B for Detriot?
I am against both. But if WS gets 700 B, Detroit gets whatever, strings attached or not.
Two wrongs dont make a right but 25 B vs 700 B does not even make it to the second wrong.
I just wish that right would have been exercised a little more when hundreds of billions of dollars were poured into a black hole in the middle east never to be seen again. But, suddenly, conveniently, when it involves middle-class union jobs here in the US, a once-hidden righteous anger on the part of Republicans over government spending and accountability reveals itself.
I would never presume to defend the Bush administration or the current crop of spend happy Republicans, so you'll get no argument from me on that. And I have no interest in grandstanding politicians playing politics with any of this mess, it's far too important to all our lives.
Especially on mine. Being an engineer for a tier 1 automotive supplier. The Big 3 go belly up, and I'll probably be out of a job really quick, along with just about everyone around me. And lots of other folks.
Sorry to hear that Mag. I sure hope things don't turn out that way. But take solace in knowing that at least your position and those of thousands of other auto employees were a substantial down payment on special-interest campaign contributions for some Republican senator which he can use to retain his seat in the next election cycle.
Wait a minute....that sounds eerily familiar to some other story I've been reading about recently...
but in this circumstance when it comes to giving our money away,
It's a loan.
I'll spell that out: L -- O -- A -- N
And besides, Congress has no business micro-managing company affairs like this-- labor only makes up 10 percent of the cost anyway.
In the late 70's the feds made big money on the Chrysler "bailout." Ah facts, they are so inconvenient to Repubs and their lies.
A loan is as worthless as the windshield it's written on if the recipient doesn't trim their costs and get their act together. Sorry, I don't have too much faith in the cats at GM or Ford doing that, their track record says so. Before you ask "me" for a loan, "I" will want to make damn sure you can repay it.
There's a big future for American car companies. 18 or 50 billion dollars is a cheap down payment.
And the CEO's pay works out to less than $2.00/vehicle. The problem is deeper than floor costs and the top level costs. Where do we go from here?
Where do we go from here? How about you give your sources for that $2.00/car number? I think you're a damn liar. Mgt. will not release their cost per car info.
This debate is ALL about income inequality. American auto execs make ten times more than Japanese auto execs, CEO (the guys who make 250 times more than the average rank and file) pensions remain an unfunded liability while labor pensions are funded by the workers themselves
This Republican recalcitrance on the bailout is about breaking unions and punishing workers.
You do realize that's ONE PERSON chipping in $2.00 per unit, not a HUNDRED THOUSAND people? So does this mean you'd be OK if EVERY worker added a paltry $2.00 per unit cost? But that of course would mean each car cost at least $200,000, or more than many houses.
Just proving how fundamentally idiotic this mathematical manipulation is. Give a conservative a calculator, they give you the business.
Randy
In my view, if we are going to bailout anyone, auto companies, banks, insurance companies - then we, our representatives, have every right to put any condition they feel appropriate in safeguarding our investment. I would expect no less.
I don't know who killed the current bill, or whose fault it is that these car companies are on life support - but I am fairly confident it's for many reasons. Our lawmakers and those responsible for doling out our money are perfectly reasonable in demanding those that take it cut their costs, all costs, labor included, first and foremost. Otherwise, they'll be back with hat in hand in no time.
I have a good friend who just took a 20% salary cut effective Jan 1, until further notice, as did all the employees in his company otherwise they would close their doors. And he is no big shot white collar stuffed shirt. He is in middle management and the pay cut will hurt him and his family.
Nobody is immune from trimming their budgets, union workers included.
Well said Tommy, could not agree with you more.
What are you guys, lovers of high taxes or something? In a recession, what's the difference between cutting wages for the middle class and raising taxes on the middle class?
Shame on you. Both of you.
What you two ignore, as it pertains to the big three, is that union workers have already made drastic concessions in wages and compensation. The UAW has given all they can to keep the company competitive. Has management taken commensurate hits to their livelihoods? I won't hold my breath waiting for that answer.
I commend you, Tommy, for recognizing that conditions need to be placed on industry in return for a public subsidy, but where do you get this insipid call for cutting labor costs first and foremost nonsense? The price of labor is not a cost, it's an investment in the future of the company and a remedy for the economy at large. Substandard wages lead to substandard performance and eventually stagnates economic growth by reducing the purchasing power of the working person.
While you two may not know what has put the auto makers on life support, I certainly know. It's been the narrow focus of executives to maximize short-term quarterly earnings in an effort to fatten their bonuses. Instead of nurturing the long term health of the company from the bottom up, they have tried to cut costs for the company (and ensure tidy windfalls for themselves) by dumping and slashing pension obligations as well as downsizing and off-shoring jobs. Thank God that unions have been there to protect people from these sociopaths.
Furthermore, labor costs are about TEN PERCENT of manufacturing costs. The other 90% is raw materials and overhead (mostly depreciation expense). Cut worker's wages by 20%, the unit cost per car goes down 2%. Big whoop. That cut would have made GM profitable, barely, in 2006, and would have had NO EFFECT on the HUGE 2005 and 2007 losses, plus this year's huge losses. Worst of all, such a cut would have rendered some of those workers incapable of surviving, not to mention the ripple effect of contracted spending on the rest of the economy. Conservatives just don't get that the economy depends on workers having and spending money. Cutting middle class wages and outsourcing labor temporarily increases profits today at the cost of tomorrow's long run profits. Corporations are starving themselves to death by starving the middle class. They are not lean, they are anorexic.
Randy
According to the report I heard on NPR this morning the ONLY people they demanded take a steep cut is the union workers. So "Nobody is immune from trimming their budgets, union workers included" - translates to: whatever it takes to bust the union.
I did notice that the good republican senators didn't ask the CEOs to take big pay cuts to help out. See, if you're making, say, 35 million per year, with a 10 million bonus, even if you cut back to just taking say, 1 million per year, you could support 733 regular jobs (at 60k/year) just with your own pay cut. I'd say, that would be better, and really, you're still making a million per year. That ain't bad change no matter who you are.
I just heard Senator Dodd make the observation that those same good Republican senators also did not mention a thing about pay cuts at AIG when they were wrestling over the HUGE bailout they received.
-- In my view, if we are going to bailout anyone...our representatives, have every right to put any condition they feel appropriate in safeguarding our investment. -- Tommy
Oh sweet happy days...if that were only the case.
I recognize that you are not overly enamored with the bailout...nor am I...but that if it happens it should come with prudent oversight and accountability.
There lies the problem with our lamedick congress...they have never been responsible or accountable when they dole out "our money". Proof? One needs look no further than our public education system.
We have thrown billions of dollars at the public school system...all replete with strings...with damn poor results.
Aside from the basic issue of bailout or not...congress has a horrendous record of ever managing anything properly and the over-arching issue of intervention by the feds is the most crucial pitfall in this whole mess.
Believe me Wes, nobody is more aware of government's ineptitude than I am. The thought of them overseeing or running anything scares me. They exist in a culture of no accountability and recklessly spend somebody else's money. Inherently it's a recipe for mismanagement and waste. And now they're on the verge of having a stake in making sure our poorly managed auto companies get back on track, oh joy.
Damn this whole stupid mess. Part of me says let 'em fail, it's their own fault, not mine. But then we will be there to clean it all up. Either way we, the taxpayers, get the short end of the stick - and the goons get rewarded. Out of whack, or what?
Exactamundo and correctamundo.
Just brushing up on my spanish before the inauguration...
You two certainly are very stupid. Just because you vote for conservative representatives who hate government and work tirelessly to undermine the ethic of effective government does not mean that there are no dedicated public servants in government. Given that it was a lack of oversight and regulation that precipitated this crisis, you are utterly ignorant to place your faith in the same corporate dipsticks and their permissive conservative market fundamentalist lackeys.
Government and private interests interface on a daily basis. Government regularly procures private goods and services while private companies are routinely written subsidies and grants. To pretend that the public sector, you and me with our American right to rule, should have no control over the private sector is childish and blind to reality.
You are flailing in an anti-democratic, top down mindset that confers authority to a few elites instead of the American principle of shared responsibility to make decisions. What you fail to grasp is that government is supposed to work for us, that we call the shots.
we have every right to put any condition they feel appropriate in safeguarding our investment.
Yeah-- like making sure that everyone works for subsistence wages-- and can't afford to buy their own cars.
That'll really work. The $8 an hour economy. Hello Craigslist!
So the folks at Honda and Toyota work for subsistence wages?
Tell that to the folks who work at K-Mart.
The only reason those wages are even comparable to UAW wages is to prevent the UAW from organizing their workers.
Nailed it. High wages at foreign plants are a deterrent to unionizing. Without the UAW, everyone is making half of their present wages, and guess what? GM would have still posted net losses in 2005, 2007 and 2008. The problem isn't wages. It's lack of government incentive to INNOVATE. Low MPG standards and subsidizing gas guzzlers have done more damage to the Big Three than paltry labor costs, which are 10% of production costs.
Randy
Congress wants to require the Big 3 to reduce labor costs...ok, I get that...they have targeted the UAW for wage reductions as a part of the bailout.
Does anyone know what labor cost reductions are required of the Big 3 from salaried and management people? What time table? What accountability?
I have no idea. But to use this issue solely to bust unions is none of the Senator's business, if that is their sole motivation as opposed to getting costs in line, they are on the wrong track. So, yes they'd better be asking pay cuts for everyone, labor is the most controllable expense of any company, start there, for all.
Well, we should have an idea...if the discussion is to balanced. The UAW is an easy target with their published hourly labor costs...but a real analysis of their economic problems involves more than that.
Parts, transportation, management, design, and research are all vital components to the bottom line.
What's next from congress? Do they mandate a reduction of say 20% on all parts from suppliers or they can't do business with the B3?
I have little faith in the morons in congress to micromanage any business...let alone a huge corp. like GM, Ford or Chrysler...and that's one of the main reasons that this bailout troubles me.
I don't disagree with a word of it.
"Congress wants to require the Big 3 to reduce labor costs...ok, I get that...they have targeted the UAW for wage reductions as a part of the bailout."
This is more of a "republicans in Congress" thing. Fortunately, a slew of them are leaving come January.
The $70 an hour myth continues... today a New York Times article entitled "U.A.W at Center of Dispute on Bailout" advances the (by now) utterly debunked notion that privileged autoworkers receive $70 an hour in wages and benefits, failing to note that the figure is actually a representation of labor cost, not compensation. The quote:
But the cuts did not affect most long-time union members, whose hourly pay and compensation is about $55 an hour. The figure ranges above $70 an hour when the automakers’ costs for health care for retired workers and retirement benefits is factored in.
Deliberate misinformation or lazy journalism or both? You decide.
The New York times also has unions and would probable like a similar deal. Just have the Senate dictate salaries and working conditions for them too.
I'm LOL'ing, king. Not at you...but your succinct point about the ol' slippery slope.
It looks like congress missed the trail markers. They've ventured onto the black diamond slope when they haven't even qualified for bunny.
Deliberate misinformation or lazy journalism or both? You decide.
I have. It's deliberate.
Don't forget folks just who owns the media. It ain't labor. And these hired guns didn't get their jobs for making waves and criticizing things. It's all a rigged game-- worse than it ever was.
Why do Republicans hate working-class Americans?...
They hate everyone. They are miserable human beings. Just listen to a few Beatles songs-- they have the answer and saw it back then very clearly.
If only we had that kind of popular guidance these days-- more people-- especially young people-- would be wise to the ways of these derelicts.
Like Rachel Maddow said, show me that $70 an hour paycheck and I'll show you my universal health care card. The GOP will forever be known as the party of Hoover. So let's have a token round of applause for all their accomplishments between 2004 and now (thanks, C&L!)...
In the House, Republicans had a 232-202 majority after the 2004 election. Next year, Democrats will have a 257-178 edge. In the Senate, Republicans had a 55-45 majority after the 2004 election. Next year, Democrats will have 58 or 59 Senate seats.
After the 2004 election, Republicans held 28 governorships compared with 22 for the Democrats. After Nov. 4, Democrats held 29 governorships compared with 21 for the Republicans, although the GOP will gain one back if Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano (D) leaves, as expected, to join Obama’s Cabinet.
After the 2004 election, Republicans controlled the state legislature in 20 states compared with 19 Democratic-controlled states. Now, Democrats control the state legislature in 27 states, with the Republicans holding only 14.
And there are over 800 more Democratic state legislators than Republicans in the country, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures Web site. Four years ago, Democrats had a mere 10-seat edge out of more than 7,000 nationwide.
I saw this last night and I like Maddow, but she spun herself around with this. She played McConnel's Senate clip saying "$70 per labor hour" as a company, he specifically did not say workers are paid $70 per hour, as Maddow summed up his comments by saying. She is usually better than this. Her whole monologue last night was misinformation.
You're saying because she "spun" the $70 figure the whole monologue was misinformation? Even the parts about the republicans complaning the loudest all having foreign car manufacturing plants in their districts? I think you are painting with a very wide, wet brush there tommy.
Snoop, See my comments below on her comments about foreign manufacturing plants here. Who does she thinks works there?
Well, I guess I can understand how putting a plant symbol up next to a picture of a crooked republican could be considered disrespectful to the plant's workers, but I believe her point was about foreign owned companies gaining greater market share should the big three collapse.
I also watched a compilation of clips of republicans from last night, I think they are re-tuning their message all of a sudden too. For weeks all we've heard was about how workers get some ungodly $70+ dollar per hour wage, now all of a sudden I'm hearing republicans claiming all they wanted was to get a concession from the unions to give a date for when they will be competitive with the foreign owned plants. First I heard of that one, though it's really just another way of saying they want to dismantle the union negotiated retirement and benefits packages.
Maybe it's because the foreign owned companies produce a better product that people want. And those Republicans also represent the workers in those auto plants in their states. I am ambivalent about the whole bailout thing, for anyone, and I don't want millions of people out of work if the Big 3 collapse either, our economy would be hurt tremendously......but I am absolutely for oversight and those entrusted with spending our money to ensure it's not thrown down the drain.
It is true as far as the auto industry is concerned, foreign plants saw years ago that hybrids and economy class cars were the real bread and butter. I still don't trust foreign companies though. I worked at Siemens back in the 90's where we built the 1.2 gig wireless office phones (you may have seen them in Walmart!). They had to maintain plants in the US if they wanted to sell them here. In the late 90's republicans successfully pushed through a import deregulation bill that allowed foreign companies to put the "made in the USA" stickers on their boxes if they only packaged and shipped their product here in America. Soon after passage Siemens outsourced the manufacturing to Flextronics, and a few years later moved the entire production line back to Germany. Because of experiences like that I would prefer my owner to be a US company (though that didn't help me much with Dell!).
he specifically did not say workers are paid $70 per hour,
Of course he was saying that-- by implication. Repeat it enough and it becomes true.
Semantical BS. By saying "$70 per labor hour" one is implying that laborers make $70 per hour. Worst of all, that's NOT how GM's cost accountants allocate it. The average rate tops out at $28 per hour, which is considered labor cost. The other $52 per hour is legacy costs from retiree benefits and survivor benefits, which aren't even calculated at an hourly rate but at a flat amount which is included in the product cost as what? OVERHEAD. This hourly rate crapola was devised to demonize the UAW and wage class warfare in the middle of a crisis. The GOP is headed fast for DOA status, with this on the tombstone:
THEY LOVED HOOVER A LITTLE TOO MUCH
Randy
Let's see; yesterday Tamron Hall cut a Repugnantcon hack off at the knees for claiming Obama and Blagojevich wre "good buddies," today she's blaming the bailout crash on the UAW. Anyone want to bet that the powers-that-be at MSNBC "tore her a new one" for daring to treat a Repugnantcon with anything short of slobbering deference, hence her taking up the lie du jour?...
They didn't have to. She knew she took a chance, so she corrected herself with a Sister Soulja moment.
These hired hands do this all the time. The money's too good for them to have any general integrity.
A portion of the taxpayers have spoken via their Republican Sentors about how they don't want their tax money spent. A collapse of the UAW via bankruptcy restructuring for the big three would be sweet!
In other words, you're cheering for people to lose their jobs. Have a nice day, Ebenezer...
I don't want people to suffer. But if it means not spending our tax money to support bad businesses then I am all for their collapse and destroying the UAW. Then the the big three can rebuild their companies without the UAW and have a chance to compete with Toyota and Honda in terms of their business models.
Cental planning is never the answer!
Toyota and Honda built their plants where they did because of the subsidies from the states and because the cost of living is lower.
Now, everyone else is supposed to work for less because the people living in rural southern areas can afford to work for less?
Wages dictated by Senators seems like central planning to me.
Is the cost of living in Kentucky and Tennessee lower than Ohio?
Not sure about that now, but when the first plants were built they were usually built in areas with lower costs of living.
My experience has been plants negotiate little to no taxes for a 5 to 10 year period.
Is the cost of living in Kentucky and Tennessee lower than Ohio?
Lower than the big cities-- of course it is.
You're right. Senators shouldn't be dictating wages. That is central planning. The point is we shouldn't even be giving the auto makers tax money. No bailout! No loan! Nothing!
Yeah! Let's just give rich people their taxes back! They'll make things right.
Right?
Let's see, what have I done? Oh, I know. I own a semi rig that I broker, it employs two drivers. Suprisingly it's not regulations that makes it difficult to make a buck doing that, it's the price of gas that your free market drives to $150 a barrel, it's big business who refuses to pay the gas price differential because "free market" trucking monopolies can and will take rediculously low shipping rates because they can still make a profit on volume while driving small businesses out of business, and it's republican jerks who you vote for who refuse to regulate the wages of big business owners with their megalomillion dollar golden parachutes that they get even if they fail but are all for regulating the wages of the workers and the small businesses because those people don't pay off your jackbooted thugs.
So keep your speedo, thanks to you republicans it was probably made in Pakistan which is a terrorist nation that you'd much rather send work to because you hate americans more than terrorists.
Oil is the past; join us in moving to a green economy.
You know what would be sweet?
If the Republican Senators who're complaining that their constituents don't want their money spent this way what about someone like me? I live in New Jersey. In 2005 for every dollar paid in Federal taxes by New Jersey workers, $ .61 was returned to the state by the Federal government.
Each and every one of the states represented by these scumbags gets more in return form the Federal government than they pay in.
If they have a say over how Federal dollars are spent then we should have a say as well.
Michigan gets $ .92 on the dollar from them. I'd say the auto workers and non-southern workers have been carrying the weight for too long.
Each and every one of the states represented by these scumbags gets more in return form the Federal government than they pay in.
I love what Bill Maher calls them. The Slave States.
If they can call San Francisco culpable terms, why can't we? It'd be great if Maher's remark would catch on as a slogan -- there's nothing better than bad publicity to defeat these guys (ask Sarah Palin.)
Here's where I disagree with people like Bob Somerby-- these right-wing tactics WORK strategically, and should be adopted (with reason) by the Left.
I am wondering why our liberal friends here have not come up with the plan to tax Toyota and Honda for every car they sell and give the proceeds to GM and Chrysler.
After all, isn't it patriotic to chip in? The "haves" can pay for the "have nots", right?
Japanese car companies have a younger workforce so they don't have to support an aging retired group. What is fair about that? After all, they can pay into this system and when they retire, their kids can pay into the system to keep the system going.
Gosh I wonder why Obama hasn't offered up some sort of plan like this??? Maybe he's been to busy not talking to key players on his transition team? Maybe he is waiting for someone to call him if they need him? Anyone got his phone number?
Speaking of Maddow, and Toyota and Honda - after listening to her monologue last night basically trashing Toyota, Honda and the other foreign car companies - by putting up the Republican Senator's pictures along with the logos of these car companies in their states, I was appalled by her disrespect for the workers, honest hard workers, at these car companies. They have families and lives too, just as the GM/Ford workers. For her to use them as some wedge for her argument was reprehensible.
I was appalled by her disrespect for the workers, honest hard workers, at these car companies.
She did no such thing. She attacked the companies and their conspirators in these sweetheart, hypocritical, republican deals.
Heck, why aren't republicans just pushing to fire everyone over 30 at the american plants? It would fit right in with their efforts to eliminate the benefit plans for retired or retiring workers. Why haven't anyone of what's left of the republican party worked that one in yet?
Heck, why aren't republicans just pushing to fire everyone over 30 at the american plants?
Yeah, and they have nothing to worry about either, politically, because even though most of their supporters are way over 30, almost all of them are TOO STUPID to realize it means THEM !!
Gosh I wonder why Obama hasn't offered up some sort of plan like this??? AA
I'm guessing he wouldn't cause he's so Reaganesque. And, I don't think he can do anything about this because he's not in office yet?
Gosh I wonder why Obama hasn't offered up some sort of plan like this??? Maybe he's been to busy not talking to key players on his transition team? Maybe he is waiting for someone to call him if they need him? Anyone got his phone number?
AA, was that an attempt at sarcasm?
Sounds more like another whine by a loser Republican who can't accept the fact that it's December 2008 and the country is still being run by the same incompetent a**hole Republican administration that caused this mess. The same incompetent administration the whinny loser voted for twice.
I am wondering why our liberal friends here have not come up with the plan to tax Toyota and Honda for every car they sell and give the proceeds to GM and Chrysler.
AA, don't you conservatives call yourselves the only "real patriotic" American party? Yet you so called "real patriotic" conservatives are favoring foreign automakers over American automakers.
Or could the truth be you so called "real patriotic" conservatives just don't favor American workers who belong to unions?
We all should recognize a Conservative shill when we see one, no? Now, we have a couple of new ones. As usual, some of you are wasting your time "debating" with such people. It is difficult to let such drivel go by without countering, but I know the tactics. The shills in question attack Media Matters for doing what the mission statement clearly states: to report MISINFORMATION. Since the group called Conservatives (read, Republicans) need and employ misinformation to rack up points, they have to discredit, by ANY means, presentments of misinformation. Here is a dead give-away of their methods of attack: accuse "liberals" of not being willing to accept a "different point of view". This (they think) can label us as "closed minded" and "misinformed". If one re-reads some of the posts by "certain individuals" one can find this ploy contained somewhere within their comments. For me, personally, the only way to deal with the extreme right is to not respond. Go now, and sin no more.
Amen Maddog!
True, there's no point in trying to "debate" those who prove over and over that they don't want to do anything but spout their BS. It is fun to see them dig in their heels and try to defend the propaganda, though.
hahahah.... gotta love your thinly veiled ad hominem attack on Republicans while trying to convice us you are above it all! It looks like to this observer, that you can dish it out but are saying cannot take it. Thanks for being so upfront. :-)
My personal feelings are that you can be as close minded as you want. Or if you don't like my phrasing, as you said, you are "not willing to accept different points of view." Nobody is pointing any gun to your head stating you must repond. It's a free country and you are free to do as you wish.
From now onI'm sure youll just look for only posts from the what I call the attaboy crowd. All they do is bow to the alter of MMFA and hand out attaboys to those who do likewise. If that's all you want to do, by all means do so.
Attaboy don! (You too blueneck!) Or is it amen? In either case thanks for the wise words at the end. Have a great weekend!
Why do you wingnuts always resort to the "You just don't like different opinions" whine when it's pointed out that your comments are dishonest and lame?
Lies are not an equal and balancing counterpart to truth. Stop blaming others for your failures.
Col, Just a little tidbit of handy info as we head into the weekend. Not all that comes from a liberal is always the truth, and not all that comes from a conservative is always a lie. And vice versa....
They are called different opinions.
I don't think any sane person would disagree with your first paragraph. I'm glad I never said anything like that, unless you're interpreting "wingnuts" as "all conservatives".I'm speaking to a specific group, of which AA is a member.
AA is a weasel, a liar, and a phony, and I find him entertaining.But I don't consider his opinion worth anything. Not because he's a conservative, but because he's a phony.
What? No smiley face?
You must be serious then. I agree with you 100 %.
Looks like I hit a nerve, eh? It really doesn't take much to see through the BS these conservative hate-mongers dish out. They are so transparent. From now on I will not even engage them. It is fruitless (is there a hidden implication there?). Everything wrong with this country can be traced to them. If the last eight years is any example, then what's the use trying? I am so glad that Bush is being so "candid", though.
Hit a nerve? No--I think you fractured his skull. This insufferable twit, whose favorite style of debate is the argumentum ad nauseum couldn't tell an ad hominem from his culus. Then he comes up with a "tax plan" he must have pulled out of the latter. The argumentum ad nauseum is related to the primitive belief that if you repeat something often enough (no matter how inane, stupid or untrue) it becomes true. Nothing is more pathetic than ignorance unless it is ignorance combined with arrogance. When someone refuses to engage him it is not because "they cannot take it", in fact it is hard to remember many posts he has made that were not laughable. Yet he fancies himself a capable 'debater'. The real reason one should pass on engaging him (or others like him) is that no one really wants to waste their precious time with a worthless flamethrower who only wants to stir the pot. To those that choose otherwise--your patience is commendable.
Non (ita me di ament) quicquam referre putaui, utrumne os an culum olfacerem Aemilio.Nothing is more pathetic than ignorance unless it is ignorance combined with arrogance.
Very true, Blueneck, and something I've said to AA more than once. It's hilarious to see somebody who needs almost every item here explained to him in painstaking detail have the hubris to constantly tell others that they're "mistaken", or they "don't understand" that they're "making his point".
BTW, the wingnut translation of Ad Hominem is any exposing of their opinions or arguments as weak.
yes, it is. "not all that comes from a conservative is always a lie."
by definition, conservatism is itself a lie. it pretends to be that which it is most assuredly not: policies which are good for the republic.
every modern "conservative" administration and congress has resulted in unmitigated disaster for the country as a whole. the rich/powerful always gain, everyone else always loses. this is as true as the sun always rising in the east. it always has been, and always will be.
What a truly wise, measured, and conciliatory reponse. I feel so much closer to the enlightenment we all seek now. It is truly a treasure to be in the presence of one who so consistently demonstrates that his only concern is to get at the truth. From now on I will pour over every one of your posts because, well, I learn so much from them. How could one's Spirit not be permanently altered in the course of even a single exchange with one whose soul is so clearly illuminated by the immortals. My heart and mind has been changed your very presence here. Go well sir and have a great weekend.
Please permit this criticism of the reporting of the wage claim sham by the Big 3 automakers and their accomplices, how this particular situation reflects the general laziness in reporting.
I can't help see some laziness in the reporting of the distorted wage figures of hourly workers at the U.S. automakers. First, why doesn't someone report the true wages and benefits specific to an employee hired since the last contract negotiations. At the Arlington, Texas, GM plant, starting wage is $14.00/hour, and that rate is capped at $16.00/hour. Add to that, approximately $10.00/hour for benefits (the best guess estimate I can find), that would make the actual wage and benefit total between $24.00 and $26.00/hour. Instead of just stating the obvious about the ridiculous claims that hourly workers are making over $70.00/hour, wouldn't it be appropriate to spend the time researching the truth and reporting that?
Second, and as important, I have not been able to find any information on the wage and benefit packages of salaried employees of the Big 3 automakers. Am I to assume that the wage and benefit packages of salaried employees, both current and retired, have zero affect on the cost of an automobile? Or, more probable, should I assume that the salaried employees wages are off-limits for honest discussion? If hourly workers, current and retired, account for 10% of the cost of manufacturing an automobile, I find it improbable that the salaries of current and retired management account for 0% of the cost of an automobile, but one might just be fooled into thinking that because of the laziness (yes, this is a criticism) of reporting.
Without laying out for review a comparison, without holding one variable up for scrutiny against another, without investigating and reporting the whole of a situation, what purpose does your reporting serve other than pointing out what every working family already knows, that those with the money and power will lie to anyone who will listen and repeat those lies until they become the "truth."
I think the wages and benefit packages paid to current and retired management at the Big 3 automakers do impact the cost of automobile manufacturing. Of course, no one seems to want to put in the work to report that variable, so I guess it isn't the "truth."
News reporting is often laughable, but sometimes its insulting to the reader with its laziness. Even those who protray themselves as investigative and truth-searching journalists are often as irreponsible as those they are trying to shed light on. For those of us who aren't looking for affirmation of our on biases and beliefs, but instead are looking for the whole story, where do we go?
Absolutely correct! These republicans stand up and piously spout their reasons for not LOANING 45Billion to Detroit. In the meantime, they are working for two goals. First they want to kill the auto unions even if it means killing the U.S. economy overall. Secondly, they want to protect their foreign automaker supporters. Why has no one asked Shelby or McConnell how many foreign, non-union auto makers are in their state? How much did those states pay them to locate in their States? How much is the state paying to cover medical care that those states promised the foreign automakers they wouldn't have to pay? Don't they have enough intelligence to realize that by killing Detroit, they kill an entire auto supplier industry. Where will their foreign automakers get their parts? this is a prime example of how to win the battle while losing the war. Their plan to obstruct at all costs is now up and running.
There is a great amount of animus and idocy...and that is in the GOP- and headquartered in the South.
Against giveaways? How about Alabama giving away more than a Billion in giveaways......to Mercedes, Hyundai, Honda and Nissan???
So that makes Senators Shelby and Sessions liars...and probably crooks...
I guess the GOP hates Harleys too....and yet Reagan acted to save the company.....
Gov. Mark Sanford hates subsidies.....yet his state has MASSIVE tax subsidies with BMW...almost $300 million...
EVEN Duncan Hunter said the Big 3 need to be saved.....and pointed out it was US manufacturing that won World War 2....
And a bunch of the southern politicians were pro-Nazi.
It looks like they still are......the original surrender monkeys.
Selling out their country once again...
GOP wants a Depression... so now call them the HOOVER PARTY...
In fact, lets match the senate and house salaries and benefits to the UAW.....
Sen. Shelby, Ensign, Sessions, McConnell.....et al.... say hello to $28 per hour wages.
What about the dems that also voted nay? 9 republicans voted for the bill and 9 dems either voted nay or did not vote all themselves?
It appears that the majority of Americans will not support the "No unionized auto-worker left behind bill". Other companies in the same manufacturing field are doing just fine and the only way for these guys to make it is to file for chapter 11 if the union doesn't agree now to save their jobs.