Like other Fox News hosts, Hannity falsely claimed Obama's economic recovery plan gives money to people who "don't pay any taxes"
SUMMARY: Fox News' Sean Hannity falsely claimed that President-elect Barack Obama's economic plan gives money to "people that don't pay any taxes," echoing the oft-repeated myth from the presidential campaign that Obama's proposed tax cuts would go to people who don't pay taxes. In fact, Obama has proposed giving the tax credit to "working families," which means they do pay Social Security and Medicare taxes.
On the January 9 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, co-host Sean Hannity asked Fox News contributor Lanny Davis: "[H]ow is it that people that don't pay any taxes are going to get what's called a tax cut under the Obama plan?" adding, "[E]xplain to me how that's not welfare." Numerous Fox News hosts and contributors previously claimed that people who don't pay taxes would be eligible for an individual tax credit included in President-elect Barack Obama's proposed economic recovery plan. In fact, Obama has proposed giving the tax credit to "working families," which means they pay Social Security and Medicare taxes under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act. Additionally, The New York Times reported in a January 4 article that Obama's proposals "include about $300 billion in tax cuts for workers and businesses."
In a January 8 speech, Obama stated that his proposed tax credit will go to working Americans, saying, "To get people spending again, 95% of working families will receive a $1,000 tax cut -- the first stage of a middle-class tax cut that I promised during the campaign and will include in our next budget."
Indeed, the "Making Work Pay" tax credit Obama included in his economic proposal during the presidential race would provide a "tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family":
This refundable income tax credit will provide direct relief to American families who face the regressive payroll tax system. It will offset the payroll tax on the first $8,100 of their earnings while still preserving the important principle of a dedicated revenue source for Social Security. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. The tax credit will also provide relief to self-employed small business owners who struggle to pay both the employee and employer portion of the payroll tax. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit offsets some of this selfemployment tax as well.
Additionally, consumers in the United States are required to pay federal excise taxes, including 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline. U.S. residents are also subject to state taxes, such as sales, income, and property taxes.
As Media Matters for America documented, Fox News anchors and contributors -- including Shepard Smith, Megyn Kelly, Trace Gallagher, Gretchen Carlson, and Cheryl Casone -- as well as Washington deputy managing editor Bill Sammon, have all promulgated the falsehood, which echoes the often-repeated myth from the 2008 presidential campaign that Obama's proposed tax cuts would go to people who don't pay taxes.
From the January 9 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:
HANNITY: Explain this to me, 'cause I'm a conservative, and maybe I just don't understand spread-the-wealth socialism, and I want you to help me. Because, Lanny, how is it that people that don't pay any taxes are going to get what's called a tax cut under the Obama plan? How is -- explain to me how that's not welfare. I'm having a hard time with this new economics, and I know you can simplify it for me. So how is that not welfare, and how is that a tax cut?
DAVIS: Well, an awful lot of people think that welfare is giving tax subsidies to big corporations and wealthy people --
HANNITY: No, no, no, no.
DAVIS: -- who don't pay their fair share.
HANNITY: Focus on my question, though. Focus on my --
DAVIS: So there is some -- no, there's some subsidy involved in giving people who don't pay taxes some cash to help revive the economy.
HANNITY: So is it welfare --
DAVIS: So you could call it --
HANNITY: -- or is a tax cut?
DAVIS: Well, welfare was a program that was a continuing program for poor people. This is a temporary injection --
HANNITY: All right.
DAVIS: -- of cash into our bloodstream.
HANNITY: John Kasich --
DAVIS: But you should be as offended by wealthy people getting that money just as you are by poor people getting it.
HANNITY: All right, Mark Steyn is laughing. Mark, go ahead.















You're giving them back more money than they paid in if they're still going to get their medicare/ss benefits.
Davis at least answered it honestly, saying it was a temporary injection of cash into our bloodstream. I'm just not sure MMFA particularly cares for the way he characterizes it, since he doesn't mention any of their bullet points about SS and Medicare taxes.
I don't even necessarily think giving out injections of cash to those who are close to failure and will become a burden on taxpayers is a bad thing in this economy..but at least call it like it is.
No he didn't answer honestly and you just don't get it.
Well if you're calling Lanny Davis a liar, then take it up with him.
Actually, I think you're bot liars and since I can't take it up with him, it's all you.
I'm crushed.
Don't take it so hard. I said you're a liar, but I never said you were stupid. Luckily, you can stop lying any time you like.
Actually, I think you're bot liars and since I can't take it up with him, it's all you.
Are they going to get their benefits if the government keeps raiding SS and Medicare to pay for other things?
Who knows? I wish I could opt out..at 26yrs old I could still put that money to better use investing in bonds.
Do you know what you would do if you became disabled at 26?
He'd be the first in line to ask for assistance.
Good question... I'm sure a lot of us don't think about that possible scenario.
Blah-blah-blah. Who are these people that pay no taxes? Forget payroll taxes. How many people with jobs have an income tax obligation of zero? Not many.
Who are these people that pay no taxes? Forget payroll taxes. How many people with jobs have an income tax obligation of zero? Not many.
You try raising a kid as a single mother while working part time at Walmart.
Not many?
Are you saying everyone that works at walmart only works part-time and is a single parent? Are you saying that trying to do that has anything to do with the statistics?
I'm sorry. I don't understand how your comment relates to mine.
How many people with jobs have an income tax obligation of zero? Not many.
It's about $6,000. Depends on status. But MMFA doesn't go far enough-- anyone who makes more than about $30 a week has to have something withheld, which means they DO pay income taxes. They may get it all back, but they STILL pay.
What's hilarious about this argument is this: so what? So what if they get money?
They would actually only be getting the money that they paid in, back to them.
That's just what I was getting at. There's a difference between getting a refund on your taxes and paying no taxes. The right is trying to make it sound like Obama wants to hand out checks to folks that wouldn't even file a return otherwise. I don't think that's the plan (although it's exactly what Bush did last year and I didn't hear Fox complaining about that.)
Hannity, another right wing, so-called "Christian" liar, like Coulter, Limbaugh and such. Absolute scum, as are their followers.
Uh Oh, wait til AnotherAmerican reads this. His head may actually explode...
Why, Ol' Ben, because of that blatant anti-Christian bigggggotry displayed in Tony's post? Har! That other thread is priceless.
Pretty funny, a self-proclaimed Christian like ANutterAmerican, who has been busted countless times here lying and plagiarizing, interpreting comments on Coulter's dishonesty as "anti-Christian".
Almost as funny as somebody as hypersensitive to name-calling and insults as Barney is being a fan of Annie, who relies almost entirely on insults and name-calling in the absence of any substance.
I guess that's the job of Coulter and the other screechers, playing "My Bodyguard" for the wingnuts who are too timid to throw the sh*t themselves, or want to pretend to take the high road.
If there was a God, I'm sure he would have given these types the pox a long time ago.
I'm not sure if you caught that whole thread, but AA also asked why dishonesty was inconsistent with Christianity. Then he said that the problem with Tony's post was that he brought up Christianity on a thread that had nothing to do with it. And when non-Christians bring it up, that proves bigotry. Even if that were to be logical, how he knows Tony is not a Christian remains a mystery. On top of all of that, he said that Christians will judge the behavior of other Christians, that's not the role of non-Christians. This is all paraphrased, but I don't think I'm misrepresenting his words.
I've noticed similar behavior a few other times, where if Christianity is mentioned in any way then it's a scurrilous attack on the entire faith. He would never explain why, and now that he's attempted to do so I can see why he avoided such efforts in the past.
Once again, as I just said on the Coulter thread, I was not attacking Christians or Christianity, I'm slamming people like Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh and such who claim to be Christian, yet they spew lies and hatred all day long. Jesus did not teach that.
In fact, if Jesus were dumb enough to make his comeback in America, in particular in the rural, conservative South, he would probably be chained to the back of a pick up truck and dragged down a country road for being a long haired, touchy-feely liberal.
To verify what you are saying re: Hannity and his followers, just read the posts on his website forum "Washington Politics". Absolutely one of the most despicable, hate-filled, and racist/bigoted mainstream forums on the internet. Paid for by Disney/ABC BTW! Absolutely NOTHING "Christian" or positive happens there!
http://forums.hannity.com/
I got kicked out of Hannity's forum for pointing out that Jesus didn't teach lying and hatred to be good things, like Hannity seems to believe.
Not really a bad thing to get kicked out of the hate site, I usually felt like I needed a battery acid shower after being in with those Christian conservative posers.
Didn't Sean Hannity just recently win an award for lying? Was it a lifetime achievement award or just for one year's worth of lies? I forgot which... Well...actually, now that I think of it, Hannity lies more in one year than 12 people could lie in a lifetime. Is Sean Hannity's middle name "Liar"? ;>)
Was it a lifetime achievement award or just for one year's worth of lies?
Here's proof that Hannity knowlingly lies: remember Newdow and the Pledge of Allegiance thing?
For weeks, Hannity claimed that the Establishment Clause said '"establishment of a religion." After awhile, Colmes convinced him that the "a" was not there. So Hannity starts quoting it accurately.
But after a week of being correct-- after the issue blew over-- he deliberately went back to his original misrepresentation, which he continues to this day.
Moral? The guy KNOWINGLY lies, in spite of the evidence. There is no other explanation for his behavior, and that one proves it.
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I agree. This is the heart of the problem with the “conservative movement.”
Hannity and most of the other Fox hosts, as well as Limbaugh seem to approach most of their “discussions” this way. This propaganda approach seems to be their modus operandi (either that or they think their audience is a bunch of gullible idiots). Josef Goebbels was the master in the Nazi party, and given the rhetoric laden with hate and ad hominem attacks, these folks are not much different.
At what point is “free speech” no longer in its original intention? At what point does the rhetoric become libel and slander? I think what they so often do is wrong. Is it because if they stuck to the issues they would have no audience?
I hope I was not off track with respect to the original points made.
Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid
Top 1%
$388,806
39.89
Top 5%
$153,542
60.14
Top 10%
$108,904
70.79
Top 25%
$64,702
86.27
Top 50%
$31,987
97.01
Bottom 50%
<$31,987
2.99
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
I still have yet to hear where Obama's "working families" cut off number.
Do you also have annual income figures for these groups? Oops, I mean 'success' figures?
As he kept saying during his run, $250k.
Same chart, different columns:
Income Average Tax Rate
All Taxpayers N/A 12.60%
Top 1% > $388,806 22.79%
Top 2-5% 17.48%
Top 5% > $153,542 20.68%
Top 6-10% 12.60%
Top 10% > $108,904 18.86%
Top 11-25% 9.36%
Top 25% > $64,702 15.95%
Top 26-50% 7.01%
Top 50% > $31,987 13.98%
Bottom 50% < $31,987 3.01%
What was your problem again?
To look at it another way, the top 1% controls 1/3rd of the wealth in this country, while the top 10% controls over 2/3rds of the wealth ( about 67% ), leaving about a 3rd of the wealth for the other 90% of the people.
Those with the most should pay the most, right?
So Tony, when you go to dinner with friends and you all have the same meal and same drink and you get the final bill do you ask your friends who makes what before you decide what to pay. If you are the individual with the least amount of income, do you get to pay less? Each person should pay the same amount of the percentage of what was taken.
That's easily one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen. Obviously people who earn more have more, so it's not comparable to having "the same meal and same drink".
A graduated income tax makes sense precisely because people don't pay less for things if they have less money. If a hamburger cost a poor person a nickel while it cost a rich person fifty bucks, then it would make sense to take the same percentage of everyone's check for taxes. As it is, those with low incomes need every dollar for living expenses, while someone making a million a year has plenty of disposable income.
Yes, a dinner with friends is exactly the same thing as running the government of one of the largest countries in the world. How blatantly obvious! Have you sent this theory of yours in to the Nobel Committee yet?
THe people here remind me of something my father used to tell. here's the story- There was a girl in college- being there she became liberal in the extreme and never saw soeme OPM cause she didn't love (Other People's Money- for those acronym impaired on here). After contantly harassin her father about his conservative views in life, the conversation between them changed.
Father: so how are you grades doing?
Daughter: I worked my butt off an am getting straight 4.0's.
Father: That's great. How's your friend Jenny doing?
Daughter: She's doing really lousy. parties too much, and generally screws off.
Father: well, why dont' you offer to split your grade with her? then you both can end up with a 2.0?
Daughter" What?!! I worked my tail off studying. She does nothing and you think I should give up MY grade for her?
Father: welcome to the Repulican party.
People tell stories like that and then wonder why their logic and compassion are questioned.
People who are rich are still rich after being taxed. It's not like giving up part of your GPA, which is not spendable or something you would earn again. And who advocates splitting things evenly regardless of how hard you work? Is being Republican the only alternative to being Communist, or what?
The story also relies on the premise that people who don't have money "screw off", and those with money work their asses off. Both generalizations are absurd, because there are other possible circumstances for each. By your logic, someone given a cushy, high-paying job by a relative should keep their money, while someone who dropped out of school so they could pay for their mother's medical bills should live in abject poverty.
Welcome to the Republican party.
The purpose of MMFA is to point out active deception by the media regarding issues of public concern. THe point neocons seem to be blissfully ignorant of is painfully simple:
1) Pundits, like Hannity, repeatedly and purposefully play a verbal shell game by using the word "taxes" and "federal income taxes" interchangeably.
2) Yes, many people do not pay "federal income taxes" but they still pay "taxes" in the form of Social security, medicare, payroll, property, and sales taxes.
3) The "tax" rebate is exactly that. It is NOT a "federal income tax" rebate.
BY constantly using these two terms as if they are the same, conservatives like Hannity (and many of the neocons on this board) ARE ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN AN ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!
IT is not a question of IDEOLOGY. It is a question of HONESTY. If you are comfortable in your ideas you shouldn't have to LIE to the American people in order to convince them of their value. Republicans have lost a generation of voters because they have chosen the path of DECEPTION rather than the righteous path of TRUTH.
If people are caught in a lie they should be condemned not defended based on ideological grounds.
Even if this is true, why didn't the same people criticize Bush's plans to give money to people WHO DO NOT NEED MONEY? How is that somehow nobler? Heaping more and more wealth on the wealthy is ideologically consistent with what "principle"? GREED.
Randy
It’s somehow nobler because they still adhere to long disproved trickle-down theory that if you simply give rich people more money, they will take that money and “create” jobs for the people that need the money.
I guess maybe because those that further that unfathomable myth actually believe that people with money are the ones who create jobs. When is the last time you worked for a "poor" person?
When was the last time your boss actually created a job based on his own income? My father is a VP, and he employs the same number of people in his factory regardless of whether his annual bonus is $60,000 or $150,000, let alone whether his tax rate changes. I can promise you my father didn't hire anyone new when he got his Bush tax cut. I think that was added to my inheritance.
I never said anything about "his own income"? I said people with means/money are the ones who create jobs; whether it's from their salary, money from investments, or profits from their businesses as they expand and need more employees. What about that do you disagree with?
You're such a slimy little weasel. You can't even own up to your own words. Typical conservative liar. I mean really, what is salary if not income?
That's similar to Friday, where he drew a distinction between "income" and "wages".
Truly. Deeply. Slimy.
Trickle-down Tommy, Reaganomics doesn't work. George H.W. Bush was right when he called it "voodoo economics" back during the 1980 Republican Primaries. Supply-side economics doesn't work. There are still some delusional supply-siders out there. Loony Larry Kudlow over on CNBC is like the Japanese guys who refused to believe that World War 2 was over 25 years after it ended or the people who still think Barack Obama is a Muslim. You just give everything to the elites at the top, and the crumbs trickle down to the peasants. Problem is the elites at the top keep everything for themselves--including the crumbs. The peasants are left standing at the gates of the Palace and wondering when the crumbs will come. It never worked, and never will.
THANK YOU.
njguy93@yahoo.com
All I said was that people with money are the ones who create jobs. All your trickle down Reagan voodoo rhetoric did nothing to refute what I said.
That doesn't follow.
"It’s somehow nobler because they still adhere to long disproved trickle-down theory that if you simply give rich people more money, they will take that money and “create” jobs for the people that need the money."
"I guess maybe because those that further that unfathomable myth actually believe that people with money are the ones who create jobs. When is the last time you worked for a "poor" person?"
Just because it's the rich people who create the jobs doesn't mean that they will create jobs when given more money. That is what Pete said.
It's their money, they can do whatever they want. Do you believe people with money or without money create the jobs?
I didn't say they couldn't do whatever they wanted.
"Do you believe people with money or without money create the jobs?"
I already answered that:"Just because it's the rich people who create the jobs doesn't mean that they will create jobs when given more money."
You can say that "rich people create jobs" and say "if you give rich people money, they won't create more jobs with that money" at the same time.
No, you did not answer that. My question was not what rich people do with all their money, I asked you a simple direct question about who creates jobs.
If you couldn't, or won't answer it, then I'd suggest you not chime just to argue.
"Just because it's the rich people who create the jobs" means rich people create the jobs.
I chimed in to point out the flaw in your reasoning.
No, you chimed in to argue. That's obvious by your refusal to answer a simple question directly. Until you do, play with someone else.
I answered the question. Rich people create the jobs. I said it from the start.
Good, then we agree.
And what you said still doesn't address what Pete said.
I most certainly did. And you just agreed with it, yet you still argue. Hysterical.
No, you did not "address it."
All you did was jokingly state something that I agree with: People with money create jobs, which my statement does not attempt to disprove.
What I was addressing were the forces that spur the creation of the jobs. Capital is only one of them. Demand is another.
Simply giving more money to someone who already has capital is no gurantee of job creation, especially with the trade policies the way they are. There's a far better chance of a job being created in India, China or Mexico.
No, what Pete said is that giving them more money isn't going to mean they're going to create more jobs. That's not the same thing as saying that rich people create jobs. There is a difference, which you won't address.
Also, about this:"My question was not what rich people do with all their money"
I didn't say anything about "what rich people do with all their money". I don't know what you're talking about.
"Just because it's the rich people who create the jobs doesn't mean that they will create jobs when given more money."
You're the one who seems to know what rich people do with their money.
You're the one who said they create the jobs. I didn't say anything about what they do with all their money.
This is bizarre. What's with the attitude?
What attitude? If you are so sensitive to being directly questioned by me, then perhaps you should address someone else. I didn't find you.
I don't care if you question me, just do it honestly. When I say "rich people create the jobs", you're insisting that I didn't say anything about whether rich people create jobs or not, but I am saying I know what rich people do with all their money.
The attitude I'm talking about is where someone is not allowed to question you. Anyone who does is "chiming in just to argue" or whatever.
None of these red herrings changes the fact that fox news is still LYING!!!
"I guess maybe because those that further that unfathomable myth actually believe that people with money are the ones who create jobs."
Simply giving a rich person more money is not going to "create" a job unless there also exits a demand for that rich person's product or service that is so great that hiring that person will bring more money to the business than it costs to employ them. As we've seen all too much since Reagan, that rich person will often opt to destroy jobs here in America and create them elsewhere.
"When is the last time you worked for a "poor" person?"
In high school ('88-89). I worked part time for a hock shop. The owner lived in a two-bedroom fixer-upper and he drove a mid-70's Datsun wagon.
"... also *exists* a demand..."
"Simply giving a rich person more money is not going to "create" a job unless there also exits a demand for that rich person's product or service that is so great that hiring that person will bring more money to the business than it costs to employ them."
Which is a perfect reason to limit executive compensation to 15-20 times the lowest compensated employee in a company.
"When is the last time you worked for a "poor" person?"
Idiot.
People of little to no means can get business loans and, if they have a knack for it, make a go of it.
It's not inconceivable that a poor person could become an employer. You're just stuck in your bs corporate mindset, that's all.
I didn't take that line to be inteded as literal, as if nobody ever works for "poor" people. I took it as an exaggeration based on the majority of jobs.
It just seems like the sort of situation where he's just going to say "you know what I mean", and there's not much to say in response to that. That's why it didn't seem worth clarifying or pursuing that particular line, at least for me. Of course the comment about his mindset seems to be very well-justified, considering the defense of the trickle-down philosophy.
I've heard that line many a time, from many a con. "When was the last time you worked for a poor person?"
It's an insidious line that reeks of condescension, typical tommy the con stuff, of course, I just grow weary of it. I get tired of these suckers saying how they admire grit and determination in working folks, yet never miss a chance to disparage the working poor and adulate the idle rich. It's because they think, they believe in their bones, that the American dream is about rising above everybody else, setting yourself apart with wealth and riches. In short, they think the prime objective of being American is about individual success.
But it's never been like that here. The greatest American achievements have always come from working together, sharing grief and jubilation, looking out for each other. We didn't defeat the Nazis alone, we didn't go to the moon on the back of one man.
The American dream is about well being, common purpose, community. All these cons who call us socialists, castigate our integrity, defend the inequality of obscene wealth as the American dream, in my book, frankly, are working against the principles that make this a great country.
Those are excellent points. I haven't heard that line as often, obviously.
To add to that, I don't take any of that to be an attack on the wealthy in general. Tommy tends to take anything of this sort as "class warfare", but anyone who really thinks and cares about the situations of those in the lower classes should realize that the opportunities the wealthy have should not be overly exploited for the sake of superfluous gains. In a capitalist system, we'll always have the rich and the poor, and it's not about punishing the rich, it's about making it so that the goals of the two groups are not mutually exclusive. The workers should be able to live comforably, and the rich should still be able to afford the luxuries they desire.
When is the last time you worked for a "poor" person?
If this is a world in which there are only rich and poor people I work for poor people very day. There are not enough rich people in this country to support a large consumer economy which is necessary to support the company I work for. So a rich person might be signing my paychecks, but the money got into his bank account because poor people gave it to him.
Bill Gates needs temp code writers, Trump needs maids and desk clerks, the Walton family needs night stockers and truck drivers and they all need customers. They do not give us jobs because they are philanthropists, they give us jobs to sustain and grow their own wealth.
"It is not the employer who pays the wages. Employers only handle the money. It is the customer who pays the wages.”
"The highest use of capital is not to make more money, but to make money do more for the betterment of life.”
"There is one rule for industrialists and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible”
All quotes from Henry Ford, noted leftist agitator.
Happy New Year. Question. Might be obvious. Do you think that Sean Hannity knows what a joke he is? I'd like to hear all of your responses to that, and please elaborate if you wish, like saying why or why not you think he knows or doesn't know what an abject buffoon he is. A cartoon really.
THANK YOU.
njguy93@yahoo.com
There we go. HI NJGuy, good to see you back, I used to be HuntingtonBeachLefty.
Do you think that Sean Hannity knows what a joke he is?
I'm not sure, I've always felt that Sean had a special niche in rightyworld. Where Rush Limbaugh is bright enough to know he's lying (as evidenced by his stammering and forced phony laughter) I think Hannity is a true believer, just dumb enough to think he's right, or at least think his lies are for a greater good. His appeal is to those lower rung zealots who can spot somebody who's not as brainwashed as they are.
BTW, Hannity has a new chant, it's "trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see!", whixh is moronic. There's only one deficit, it's not corn or wheat, but for the Hannitized, it frames our current economic problems not as a result of years of right-wing jackoffery, but as a fresh new crisis coming around about the same time as Obama's presidency.
HuntingtonBeachLefty, my friend. Great to see you again. I see you've joined the military now and your a colonel. Congratulations to you, sir. Rush has always struck me as a man who knows he's lying, and knows the limited mental capacity and bigoted nature of his knuckledragging audience. Sean, on the other hand I believe, is a believer to a certain extent, but he is also lying and playing to a certain audience like Rush. Rush, however, is probably a little sharper then Hannity, and hedges himself, like right after the 2006 Midterm Elections, when he said the day after Bush lost the Congress that he was tired of carrying water for people who don't deserve to have their water carried. That clearly showed that for all those years he was lying when he was defending Bush, and he panicked and worried that people might see through him. However, not surprisingly, and as I had predicted, his neanderthal audience was too stupid to realize that, and they continued listening to him, and shortly thereafter Rush went back to his usual propoganda--laughing at them and laughing, of course, as always and usual, all the way to the bank. He recently signed a $50 million dollar a year contract while many of his listeners continue to live in trailer parks.
THANK YOU.
njguy93@yahoo.com
"THEY ALL PAY TAXES!!! Yes, other than those of us in America that work (meaning we pay federal income taxes)... you buy something to eat or drink... you pay taxes You stay at a hotel... you pay taxes You want to fish or hunt... you pay taxes I dare anyone to prove that I'm wrong that even poor people never pay any taxes"
Wow, sounds to me like we all pay waaaaayyy too many taxes around here....
Oh you'll be fine till they start taxing the use of strawmen.
Well that's the problem isn't it. MMFA points out intentional deception on the part of the media and instead of saying "MMFA is right and Fox News should be condemned/punished for actively misinforming the American People," they respond with more lies. Or, in the case of Tommy, a red herring intended to distract the discussion from the central point.
Media outlets need to be punished for this sort of behavior and, unfortunately, MMFA is useless when it come to providing a way to do so. One possibility is to create a list of Fox News's biggest advertisers and boycotting products produced by those companies.
First of all, we have to define taxes for the sake of this discussion as Federal Income Tax, Social Security and Medicare (although the last two are in reality insurance premiums). There are some occupations out there that are exempt from SS and Medicare (the clergy, as an example). Two of my children when going to college did not pay SS or Medicare on wages paid to them for jobs at the college and their earnings were low enough during those years, they did not pay Income Tax. Sure they bought a few items that were subject to Sales Tax, Fuel Taxes, etc. But there are those in this country that DO NOT pay income tax or SS/Medicare Insurance premiums.
So what? The unspoken smugness of these tv conjobs is that these tax rebates/cuts will go to the feckless masses, the immoral clods who deserve their poverty.
They're just trying to undermine the appeal of Obama's recovery and reinvestment plan by trudging up resentment. They have to obfuscate because they know if they talked about Obama's recovery plan, you know creating jobs for people, in an honest way they would be laughed at for he rest of their days. These guys have one objective and that's to preserve their privilege.
I have a real problem with the term "creating jobs for people". Someone said it in one of the posts above that jobs are created out of demand. Clearly, if jobs are created by the government simply for the sake of putting someone on the government payroll, then the deficit cycle perpetuates itself. Aside from that, there are too few examples of the government operating businesses in the "black". The 1930's job creation programs can't be duplicated in today's environment, such as the Black Canyon project, which was a huge success in terms of it's monumental structure and on-time delivery, but in terms of loss of human life, was an abject failure.
I have a real problem with people standing in the way of recovery. But hey, if you would rather give money away instead of allowing people to work for it, whatevs.
Don't kid yourself, the first step to recovery will be getting people back to work so they can get some money and start pumping money back into the economy. Form there you start a virtuous cycle.
If "creating jobs" were the correct answer, we would hav a "0" unemployment figure. The government would simply put those who are out of work on the government payroll, and, according to you, would be a virtuous recovery. That is not, and never will happen because it is not economically sound, not even for a jumpstart.
You forget the part about actually putting people to work building stuff. Bridges, roads, hospitals, schools, you know infrastructure, reinvestment in the commons. I know Republicans are always out to get something for nothing, like 50 hours a week jobs for slave wages, but that is ridiculous.
Just put people on the payroll, he says...pishaw.
I see schools and road structure/improvement all the time where I live (so. Nevada). The government hires private companies to do the work and that speaks volumes. People are on the payroll, not the bloated government payroll. Your way just makes it harder for the people who are paying taxes now to support a government payroll which cannot support itself through taxation. There comes a breaking point at some time and I believe we've already passed that point.
Look who's talking about waste. You'd think by now everyone would realize that Republicans are the heavy weight champs of waste, fraud and abuse.
History shows us that, despite the trappings of greed (which usually flourishes under conservative mismanagement) we Americans are best when we think big and act bold. History also shows us that balancing the budget in the middle of a recession only succeeds in prolonging the misery, just look at Hoover's folly.
Sounds like you're trying to justify deficit spending. Cheney was roundly criticized for just that at the beginning of his 2nd term, I believe. Now, you're here to defend that policy? et tu, roundhouse?
"The government hires private companies to do the work and that speaks volumes. People are on the payroll, not the bloated government payroll."
Um, when the government hires a private company to do something, that company and the workers for it ARE on the government payroll. Smart public works projects create public goods, like efficient transportation systems, that serve a public interest that would not be served by relying on private interests. Demand alone will not inspire entrepeneurs to work on something, there has to be the possibility or profit from serving that demand.
Not so slick semantics. Tax revenues used to pay independent contractors is not the same as govt. payroll and you know it. Projects that serve the public good are rarely profit managed to reflect smart government and are often operated at a loss with the simple explanation, "it serves the public good", much like emergency rooms in so. California and we all know what happened there. Mis-management, whether it is private sector or government funded is like a virus which eventually consumes it's host.
Lockheed-Martin quite possibly wouldn't exist as a corporate or manufacturing entity without its contracts with the US government. How is throwing money at them for weapon systems that we do not need and in some cases the US Military itself does not want not a part of the "bloated government payroll" just because the money goes through an intermediary between taxpayer and paycheck? Reagan's biggest "jobs program" was to spend huge deficits on military outlays but he is hailed as a saint by people who want to insult Obama for daring to suggest we upgrade the domestic infrastructure with deficit spending.
Yes, mismanagement is bad no matter what sector it takes place in, but why is it that in the conservative view government mismanagement is somehow representative of an impossibility for government to do things smartly while private sector mismanagement is representative of only an individual poorly run company? Not to forget that many cases of cost overruns, wasteful spending, overcharging and outright embezzlement are done by private entities to the government. Reform is needed, not destruction.
I agree, there is no reason whatsoever in not expecting government to spend and invest money wisely. There is no excuse for mismanagment and I do believe, as you say, that it should not be outside the realm of possibility for the government to manage projects wisely, the same way we should expect the private sector to do so. Weapons programs are notoriously expensive and it is hard to oversee those kinds of projects because of national security---there's where the waste begins---with no oversight and security being the excuse, waste and fraud blossom out of control. On the other hand, advanced weapon systems(many will argue this and reasonably so) ,in my opinion, keep our enemies at bay and tend to stop aggression before it starts. We must have a comprehensive military but not at the expense of extreme economic hardship as we see in N. Korea and elsewhere, so somewhere in the middle lies the proper answer. It's way above my paygrade.
I am convinced that people that do not get professional training on how to present an argument, people that have never written papers to back up their opinions, people that simply repeat a particular dogma no matter what the evidence; People that lose election after election and continue to blame the electorate; ARE ABSOLUTE SYCOPHANTS! I.E. Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh(No training beyond being in front of a mic! they both dropped out of higher learning institutions and then blamed the INSTITUTIONS! Bill Cunningham an absolute racists!
It is a fact that the bottom 40% pay zero income taxes. Now...if you want to call FDR an idiot and turn Social Security into a welfare program and have people pay zero payroll taxes too...please let me know.
But, Obama's "tax cuts" would give money to people even if they are unemployed and pay no income taxes. That is welfare.
We get it. You are exceedingly cruel. You believe that the wealthy are disciplined, therefore moral. You believe that the poor undisciplined, therefor immoral. According to you the poor deserve their poverty.
Yes, we know you're cruel.
Shorter CD, let the freeloadin bastids starve, freeze, suffer desease, and die.
Cherry on top for using the word welfare.
It is a fact that the bottom 40% pay zero income taxes.
Copious, do you think that's a problem at all, that in a nation with our wealth, 40% don't even make enough to justify taxing their income?
Can you think of a successful society that ever thrived on that sort of disparity?
That's pretty sly, Col. It doesn't mean they don't earn "enough", in your words, it's just that the tax system is structured that way. This is a successful society and does thrive, in spite of that "sort of disparity".
It thrives for some. Lots of other folks struggle just to make it. And even if income was taxed at the bottom, don't pretend like it would be enough to satisfy these wingnuts. The argument would simply shift to, "Oh, these people don't pay enough taxes justify such handouts."
Face it, conservatives are cold hearted.
That's what liberals said about welfare reform and when finally passed, turned out to be the most beneficial reform for those on the welfare rolls. It's called compassion through dignity. Our present education system is the primary culprit for joblessness. Start there and the improvements will come at an exponential rate.
Yes, it is call the United States of America, but over the years the government has gotten greedy and started taking more and more of our money. How about the government just do a over haul of there spending and make some cuts in the money is being given out.
How about the government just do a over haul of there spending and make some cuts in the money is being given out. - markbfoot199
Obama pledged to do just that. Less all the grammatical errors though.
Craig, so glad your there for me. I hope Obama lives up to the pledge.
So, when is someone going to hit Hannity in the head with a brick to wake him up and push the needle farther across the record. Jeeesh!
If you get more money out of a system that you put into a system, it is not called a tax cut, I call it a hand out. I have yet to see a single document from the Obama Administration to show us what his administrations definition of working family is as of today. What is the cut off on the income of a "working family", what is his definition of family? If that same "working family" is receiving S.S. benefits now, or getting welfare, do they still get more money out of a system that is giving them more then they are paying into the system? Or do they just get more tax credits?
INCOME TAX,,get it? We all pay sales tax, gas tax this tax that tax.........Barak was campainingn INCOME TAX