Will Dobbs retract his stimulus bill falsehood?
SUMMARY: Lou Dobbs falsely claimed that the economic recovery bill, which the House recently passed, "would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible" for the bill's Making Work Pay tax credits and would therefore make undocumented immigrants "eligible for checks." In fact, illegal immigrants without Social Security numbers are not eligible for tax credits under the stimulus bill.
On his January 29 radio show, CNN host Lou Dobbs claimed that the economic recovery package passed by the House of Representatives "would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible" for the bill's Making Work Pay tax credits and would therefore make undocumented immigrants "eligible for checks." As Media Matters for America has documented, Dobbs' claim is false. Dobbs appeared to be reading from a false Associated Press report that, by the time Dobbs made the claim, had already been revised to make clear that "[i]llegal immigrants without Social Security numbers could not get tax credits" under the stimulus bill.
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act specifically precludes from eligibility for the Making Work Pay tax credit of $500 per individual and $1,000 per family "any individual unless the requirements of section 32(c)(1)(E) are met with respect to such individual." Section 32(c)(1)(E) of the Internal Revenue Code, which specifies requirements for individuals to qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit, states:
(E) Identification number requirement
No credit shall be allowed under this section to an eligible individual who does not include on the return of tax for the taxable year --
(i) such individual's taxpayer identification number, and
(ii) if the individual is married (within the meaning of section 7703), the taxpayer identification number of such individual's spouse.
The law defines "taxpayer identification number" as used in 32(c)(1)(E) as "a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration":
(m) Identification numbers
Solely for purposes of subsections (c)(1)(E) and (c)(3)(D), a taxpayer identification number means a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration (other than a social security number issued pursuant to clause (II) (or that portion of clause (III) that relates to clause (II)) of section 205(c)(2)(B)(i) of the Social Security Act).
Therefore, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act bars anyone without "a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration" from eligibility for Making Work Pay tax credits.
From the January 29 broadcast of United Stations Radio Networks' The Lou Dobbs Show:
PAT CHOATE (Manufacturing Policy Project director): It's actually gonna worsen our illegal immigration problem.
DOBBS: Yeah -- you know, you're making a great point, and a lot of people are sitting there thinking, I'm sure, "My God, Pat Choate doesn't realize that Barack Obama's folks said there would be no way that illegal aliens could be hired and be receiving these government checks in the economic stimulus plan." There's just one little problem, folks. As Dr. Choate is suggesting, the legislation that would send tax credits of 500 per worker, $1,000 per couple, would expressly disqualify non-resident aliens. At the same time, it would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for checks. So, in other words, all they have to do is ask for the money. They can get it because undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for a number can file tax returns with an alternative number. In other words, the game goes on.
Isn't the whole idea that 'illegal' immigrants are here 'illegally' and would not care about 'illegally' using someone else social security number or use a green card that they obtained 'illegally' subsequent to their 'illegal' immigration into the country?
Maybe that's what Dobbs meant...
Here's his quote:
"They can get it because undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for a number can file tax returns with an alternative number. In other words, the game goes on."
"At the same time, it would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for checks."
If you don't have an SS#, you're not "eligible". Fraud is another matter. This makes it sound as if there's some loophole in the stimulus plan, while anyone who steals an SS# can always commit fraud, regardless of the terms of the bill.
Quite right.
It sounds as if PC and Dobbs want specific language in the bill stating that if you steal someone's identity, you are not eligible for a rebate. To the rest of the thinking world, that notion seems rather intuitive.
You think don't think Dobbs knows the definition of the word 'eligible'?
Question should have been: You don't think Dobbs knows the definition of the word 'eligible'?
What you're describing is fraud, and already against the law. Does the Stimulus Bill change that, somehow? Maybe Glenn Beck's "researchers" found the section that makes fraud legal.
The problem is they would have to match the name to the number in the IRS system. Don't think thats going to happen. When I worked in the payroll department the illegals would never file taxes because they would get caught. They wouldn't even file for unemployment because the owner of the SS# would be asked why he was trying to collect unemployment.
It's a clunky system but it seems to work. The only problem is employers don't check to make sure the employee matches the number. Still I don't see how illegals could get a check because again, they don't file taxes.
Here's just what we need.
Lou Dobbs For Governor
"Because nothing says "Welcome to the Garden State" like "show me your papers, Amigo"".
- Lou's Fictitious Campaign slogan
We got to love a parody site making fun of 'ole dobbsy, the anti-immigrant king. "Give me your tired, your poor, and if even if they're legal show 'em to the door...."
Yeah, crazy old Lou. He makes Fred C. Dobbs seem like a nice, sane guy.
I'm really hoping he'll run for governor. He'll have to give up his CNN routine as a candidate and so far even the batschit crazy Republicans I know, here in the Garden State, laugh when they hear that he might be a candidate.
Could he win in New Joisey? He could appoint yawning Fred Thompson as his Lieutenant Guv., then we'd get the both of them off the tee vee.
I don't think he could win. Times are too bad to take a chance on an old and angry talking head. no one i know has even heard the rumor that he might be interested.
It would be nice to be rid of Lou and Fred though.
And they make me press 1 for service in english!!! =>
Seriously, you wouldn't believe some of the people that I know who are actually MAD, really MAD about having to press 1 for English. Normally, it's followed by some tirade about how they live in America, and darn it all (profanity free so that this will post up), these people NEED to be speaking English. Of course, never mind that none of these people actually KNOW a Mexican illegal immigrant, they just know that they're, you know, around here somewhere. It's not like the thing is JUST in Spanish, you get the option. Imagine that eh?
I MET LOU AT A BAR IN DC NAD HE TRIED TO PICK ME UP........HE'S AN AQUA VELVA MAN BY THE WAY..............and there's somethin' about an aqua velva man
just say waht ur told puppet boy!!!!!!! DANCE PUPPET BOY DANCE!
Stealing a SS# is illegal, whether you are an immigrant or not. Dobbs is a hate monger.
I know people who get bent out of shape over Spanish-language signs in grocery stores, too, and think that they exist because of some "law." When I explain to them that Spanish-speaking people spend money in grocery stores, and that their money is as green as the money of English-speaking people, and that the grocery store owners are just doing what is necessary to attract these customers, they act surprised or even say "well I'm sick of it and I'm not going to shop there anymore"-- never mind that ALL the grocery stores in this area feature signs in both English and Spanish. Some people are just idiots.
MMFA missing the boat yet again. From the IRS website
What is an ITIN?
An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, example 9XX-7X-XXXX.
IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have U.S. tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code.
Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.
OK, so you're saying that the millions of illegal immigrants will file for ITINs, receive tax rebate checks, and they should not receive it? From my estimation, as long as they pay US Taxes, regardless of immigration status, they are consumers in this country and the stimulus effect will be the same. I'd be willing to bet that a very, very small fraction of the estimated 12million +/- illegals have ITINs and will receive this money. I have no idea if such a survey exists to discover just how many of the illegals in this country have ITINs, and I bet it would be difficult to quantify in any event. I have also read that billions of dollars in SS revenues have been paid under several false SSNs (usually the one out of a fake display wallet SS card) that will never be received by the party who paid the tax. Here's just one link for you:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002020819_migrantscash31.html
Lou is presenting one side of this. The problem with all of these "journalists" is that their reporting is designed to generate ratings through outrage, not to inform the general public. I see it as less of a problem of "bias" in the media than trying to stir up outrage and controversy. There are tangible benefits of illegal immigration that we all take for granted, but when there is a cost associated with that, all you hear is the outrage. The next time you pay $1 for a head of lettuce instead of the $3 it should probably cost, you can thank an illegal migrant worker for that while you p*ss and moan about the cost of their social services.
What I am saying is that they are absolutely correct: You can get an ITIN without a SSN# and regardless of immigration status. MMFA reporting is flawed based on the actual IRS rules regarding who or what pays taxes and the purpose of the irritation of watching criminals take government money. Their legal status is completely seperate. This means that criminals living in the United States illegally have every option to recieve a stimulus by reporting their info. Does that not make sense? It doesn't matter if they are doing the right thing or not, if I was living in a country without entering legally I would probably pay my taxes too, I would rather get deported than go to jail/prison for tax evasion then get deported.
From the article:
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act specifically precludes from eligibility for the Making Work Pay tax credit of $500 per individual and $1,000 per family "any individual unless the requirements of section 32(c)(1)(E) are met with respect to such individual." Section 32(c)(1)(E) of the Internal Revenue Code, which specifies requirements for individuals to qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit, states:
The law defines "taxpayer identification number" as used in 32(c)(1)(E) as "a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration":
Therefore, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act bars anyone without "a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration" from eligibility for Making Work Pay tax credits.
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When they say "Solely for purposes of subsections (c)(1)(E) and (c)(3)(D), a taxpayer identification number means a social security number issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration", doesn't that make the ITIN irrelevant? Dobbs is talking about this bill opening something up while talking about social security numbers, but the bill specifies that you need a social security number. Am I reading it wrong?
You're reading one small section of the code. The tax code goes on to state that the IRS can deem anyone a "taxpayer" for the purposes of witholding taxes. You can interpret any section anyway you want it to. The bottom line is, they can create any line item they want for the stimulus then pull out any section of the Tax Code that they want to justify or hide the fact that illegals can, legally, qualify for the stimulus.
But we're talking about the bill, not the tax code. If the law specifies that "taxpayer identification number" must mean social security number, then it doesn't matter what else the tax code says, right? The bill doesn't make anyone eligible if they don't have a social security number.
Please be more specific, instead of giving me this "they can make it mean anything" nonsense. The language of the bill seems quite clear.
Actually, they can't. Read the bill that Brab put up there for you.
And, what you posted about ITINs, doesn't say anything about illegals being given these numbers for identification purposes, it says resident, and non resident aliens, which could be immigrants who are here legally. It says nothing about illegal aliens.