Media wield GOP's "welfare" attack on economic recovery plan
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SUMMARY: A New York Times essay by Jason DeParle highlighted a resurgence of the use of the word "welfare" among conservatives, this time to attack President Obama's economy recovery plan. Indeed, while economists agree that provisions in the legislation targeting needy people are among the most economically stimulative, Media Matters documents below the pervasiveness of what DeParle called the "weaponiz[ation]" of the "very word, welfare," in the media, particularly, but not exclusively on Fox News, to denounce the stimulus bill.
On February 7, Jason DeParle published an essay in The New York Times highlighting a resurgence of the use of the word "welfare" among conservatives, this time to attack President Obama's economy recovery plan. Indeed, while economists agree that provisions in the legislation targeting needy people are among the most economically stimulative, Media Matters for America documents below the pervasiveness of what DeParle called the "weaponiz[ation]" of the "very word, welfare," in the media, particularly, but not exclusively on Fox News, to denounce the stimulus bill. While DeParle noted that the word "was weaponized last week," Media Matters noted frequent attacks in the media of Obama's tax plan as "welfare" prior to the November 2008 election, attacks that have continued from the beginning of this year.
As Media Matters has documented, economists, including Congressional Budget Office (CBO) director Douglas W. Elmendorf and Mark Zandi -- the chief economist and co-founder of Moody's Economy.com who was a McCain campaign economic adviser -- have stated that spending proposals that critics call "welfare" stimulate the economy effectively. In Zandi's words, "[A]id to financially-pressed state governments" is an "economically potent stimulus." H.R. 1, the House economic recovery bill, includes provisions that would grant such aid to states, including additional federal matching funds for Medicaid and the creation of an "Emergency Contingency Fund for State Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Programs." Similarly, economists have stated, in Elmendorf's words, that "[t]ransfers to persons" -- such as provisions in the bill that extend food stamps and unemployment insurance payments -- "would also have a significant impact on GDP." Elmendorf further stated: "Transfers also include refundable tax credits" -- such as the Making Work Pay credit included in H.R. 1 -- "which have an impact similar to that of a temporary tax cut."
As mentioned above, while DeParle noted that the word "was weaponized last week," conservatives did not rediscover the word last week. Before the election, Media Matters cited frequent attacks in the media of Obama's tax plan as "welfare." And from the beginning of this year, there have been numerous references in the media to "welfare" in the context of Obama's economic stimulus proposal. For example:
- During the January 6 edition of Fox News' Studio B, host Shepard Smith asked Sen. John Ensign (R-NV), the chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee: "Senator, the president-elect wants a big economic stimulus package ready to sign as soon as he take office. It's somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 billion over two years, $300 billion of that in what we're being told is middle-class and business tax cuts. Senator, I know we don't know the details yet, but $300 billion in tax cuts -- how do you cut taxes on people who don't pay taxes?" Ensign replied: "What they want to do is give tax credits. It's basically like a welfare payment because it's up above and beyond whatever taxes that they pay right now."
- During the January 7 edition of CNN's American Morning, CNN political contributor and former Republican National Committee official Tara Wall claimed: "Republicans are concerned about, and conservatives are concerned about, is not giving tax cuts to those -- to those who don't pay into the income tax system, which would essentially be more of what would be considered government welfare in some cases."
- As Media Matters noted, during the January 8 edition of Fox News' America's Newsroom, co-host Megyn Kelly claimed of Obama's proposed tax credit: "They're not all tax cuts, however, because some people who don't pay taxes are going to get money." Kelly later said to Fox News contributor Cheryl Casone, "[L]et me ask you about these tax cuts. Are they really tax cuts, or are they -- or is it welfare for some people?" Casone responded: "Well you're talking about the low-income earners. There has been estimates that it could be about $500 for those low-income folks. So that has been floated out there already as these discussions are ongoing." When Kelly interjected, "[B]ut explain why that's controversial," Casone replied, "That is controversial because of many low-income earners do not pay taxes, as you mentioned, but they still will be getting checks in the mail -- that rebate."
- As Media Matters noted, during the January 8 edition of Fox News' The Live Desk, while discussing Obama's proposal with Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ), co-host Trace Gallagher asked: "Are these really tax cuts, or are these -- is this actually just more welfare spending?" Gallagher added, "If you're giving people money who didn't pay into the tax system, that becomes a different ballgame altogether." Garrett responded: "It's a totally different ballgame, because what it is, is a redistribution of wealth."
- During the January 19 edition of Fox Business Network's Cavuto, host Neil Cavuto stated to Fox News contributor Karl Rove: "Well, I'll tell you real quickly, Karl, the tax incentive component of this that was roughly 40 percent of it when we started talking about stimulus is now slipping down lower and lower and will likely be 30 percent." Rove replied: "And look how so much of that so-called tax cut is, in reality, a 20 to 40 dollar a week welfare benefit to people who have no income tax liability."
- In a January 20 column published on TheHill.com, Fox
News contributor Dick Morris wrote of Obama:
Morris' column was republished on the conservative websites Townhall.com and Newsmax.com and was promoted on the January 22 broadcast of Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
But it is not his spending that will transform our political system, it is his tax and welfare policies. In the name of short-term stimulus, he will give every American family (who makes less than $200,000) a welfare check of $1,000 euphemistically called a refundable tax credit. And he will so sharply cut taxes on the middle class and the poor that the number of Americans who pay no federal income tax will rise from the current one-third of all households to more than half. In the process, he will create a permanent electoral majority that does not pay taxes, but counts on ever-expanding welfare checks from the government. The dependency on the dole, formerly limited in pre-Clinton days to 14 million women and children on Aid to Families with Dependent Children, will now grow to a clear majority of the American population.
During the January 21 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Morris again claimed the recovery plan "is really a Trojan horse. ... [I]nside that Trojan horse are a whole variety of measures that will make us like France. Not quite Sweden yet, but France. Eliminate the majority of Americans from the tax rolls, so that most Americans don't pay taxes and therefore don't care how high they go. Give the majority of Americans a welfare check under the guise of a refundable tax credit, so that we become a fully welfare-oriented society."
- During the January 21 edition of Fox News' Hannity, host Sean Hannity claimed that "they've now redefined welfare as tax cuts. So 40 percent of people that didn't pay any taxes, they're going to get a check. Isn't that welfare, Governor?" Former Gov. Mitt Romney (R-MA) replied: "Well, I must admit that I'm -- I'm one of those that believes that everybody ought to pay something."
- In a January 21 post on the Cato Institute's blog, executive vice president David Boaz wrote that the recovery bill contains "just a bit -- maybe not more than, you know, $100 billion -- for welfare programs, which are hardly economic stimulus but will no doubt be popular with recipients."
- On January 22, Hannity claimed on his Fox News program: "Obama's talking trillion-dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. All right? And, yet, he's calling these tax cuts. OK? This is a new definition of welfare. You don't pay any taxes, but it's going to be a tax cut and they're going to mail you a welfare check."
- On his January 23 Fox News program, Hannity asked former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R): "[Obama is] talking about trillion-dollar deficits as far as we can see. He's saying it's a tax cut, but people who don't pay taxes are going to get a check. Look, you dealt with welfare in New York. Is that welfare?" Giuliani replied: "Yes. If somebody who's not paying taxes is going to get a check from the government, then that is a welfare -- you haven't earned it, that's a welfare payment. I think he's going to have to abandon that in light of the economic situation." Hannity later claimed that Obama is "instituting welfare."
- In a January 26
Newsmax.com article, chief Washington correspondent
Ronald Kessler reported:
Barack Obama is putting together a "frightening" social program rather than a package that will stimulate the economy, says Tom DeLay, the former House majority leader.
"The proposal is full of welfare -- welfare for local governments, welfare for people, subsidies for health insurance, expanding the federal government's involvement in our educational system," DeLay tells Newsmax.
What the estimated $820 billion plan amounts to is "just complete, out-and-out writing of checks to people that don't pay taxes," DeLay observes. "These are welfare checks that are called tax cuts."
- During the January 26 edition of Hannity, Morris again claimed that the recovery plan is "a Trojan horse. Inside the horse, there are socialists, and there's programs that will enhance socialism in this country. By stopping people from paying taxes, giving them welfare benefits, and giving the federal government preferred stock in banks that crowds out private owners."
- During the January 27 edition of Fox News' Special Report, Beltway Boys co-host and Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes claimed: "The question is whether Obama wants to give Republicans something that's not a tax cut that's welfare, but something that will actually help him and the economy." Barnes added: "Obama needs, after a couple of years of stimulus, he needs a strong private economy. He's not going to get it from this bill."
- During the January 28 edition of Special Report, chief political correspondent Carl Cameron reported that "instead of growing jobs, Republicans say the Democratic package grows government." Fox News then aired video of Rep. Ken Calvert (R-CA) claiming: "This bill moves us dramatically closer to a welfare state. It is forcing people who are the backbone of our economy, the middle class, into a troubling kind of public dependency."
- As Media Matters documented, on the January 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, co-host Mika Brzezinski asserted: "The stimulus plan: How much of it is welfare? How much of it is programs that have nothing to do with stimulating the economy?" Later, Brzezinski said: "I want to look at the plan and how much of it is sort of welfare programs and how much are things that we know, either from history or because economic experts somehow know this, actually stimulates the economy." Brzezinski later stated: "I mean, if you're gonna have welfare programs in this bill, call them welfare programs and pass them, but don't call them facets of the bill meant to stimulate the economy. I do feel like there's some old politics at play here."
- During the January 30 edition of Hannity, after National Review editor Rich Lowry said it is "very easy to get the tax dollars back in people's hands," Hannity claimed: "We support that. Except for the welfare portion of that."
- In a January 30 article for WorldNetDaily.com
headlined "Stimulus-plan doubts push Dow under 8,000," staff reporter Jerome R.
Corsi wrote:
All through the week, critics attacked the Obama economic stimulus plan, pointing out billions of dollars that had more to do with promoting Democratic Party causes than investing in programs that would create enough jobs to jolt the nation out of recession.In addition to millions allocated for programs such as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's contraception plan, which she argued would help the economy by reducing the need for the states to spend social welfare funds on babies born in unwanted pregnancies, Obama's plan as voted out of the House included funds for education on sexually transmitted diseases and for research on climate change issues.
- In his January 30 column, New York Post Washington bureau
chief Charles Hurt wrote:
Buried deep inside the massive spending orgy that Democrats jammed through the House this week lie five words that could drastically undo two decades of welfare reforms.The very heart of the widely applauded Welfare Reform Act of 1996 is a cap on the amount of federal cash that can be sent to states each year for welfare payments.
[...]
One thing is clear: His "stimulus" bill is not change we can believe in. It's a return to big-government welfare that we will choke on.
- In a February 2 column, Newsmax.com editor in chief
Christopher Ruddy wrote:
What is abundantly clear in just the first two weeks of the Obama administration is that the Democrats have the wrong approach in fixing our problems.We have seen that in the massive $800 billion-plus "stimulus" program, which largely goes to directly helping the unions that backed Obama and which benefits a massive laundry list of social welfare and pork barrel spending.
- In a February 2 column on WorldNetDaily.com,
conservative talk-show
host Roger Hedgecock wrote:
Now comes Obama's "stimulus" bill -- nearly $1 trillion to grow government, increase welfare and finance a permanent campaign to cement Democratic Party control.The bill is a liberal wish list that includes repeal of Clinton's welfare reform, aid to the most irresponsible deficit spending state governments (like my own California), grants to ACORN and other "community groups" to make voter fraud a permanent feature of Democratic Party success at the polls and direct payments (called "tax cuts") to illegal aliens. The smallest part of the bill is the infrastructure construction, and that has the most public support.
- During the February 2 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News contributor Newt Gingrich claimed of Obama: "I think he's beginning to realize that if this bill doesn't get changed dramatically in the Senate, if it doesn't have more tax cuts, if it doesn't shift money out of welfare into real infrastructure and out of political pork barrel into real job development, he's going to have hanging around the entire administration a failed bill by, oh, April or May. And it's pretty rapidly going to become the Obama recession."
- During the February 2 edition of MSNBC Live, co-host Contessa Brewer asked Sen. John Barrasso (R-WY): "How does it help the two parties reach consensus if the Republican leader [Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY)] is saying the president should be embarrassed about this bill?" Barrasso replied, in part: "There's more money in this bill right now for welfare and for unemployment benefits than there is for the things that we're supposed to be dealing with -- highways, roads and also bridges."
- During the February 2 edition of Morning Joe, host Joe Scarborough said of Democrats: "But they are creating -- they are spending -- this is 1972 George McGovern-style spending. Spend it like a liberal in the 21st century would spend it. We've got such an extraordinary opportunity to transform our economy, to transform our environment, to transform energy in the 21st century, and they are spending it on welfare programs. It is staggering to me."
- In a February 2 article on Newsmax.com headlined "Economists: Stimulus Plan Signals New Welfare State," managing editor David A. Patten wrote: "Economists and pundits are beginning to sound alarms that the U.S. economy is perilously close to a 'tipping point,' where so many voters will be on the public payroll it will be politically impossible to rein in entitlement programs. ... Free-market economists point to failed welfare-state experiments in England, France, and Germany, and now openly say America could be headed down the same rocky road."
- In a
February 2 editorial, The Washington Times
wrote:
The dangers to the American free enterprise system under the current proposal should not be discounted. The plan would exempt more than half of all Americans from paying federal income taxes (the current fraction is about one-third), with the voting majority getting refundable tax credits -- a form of welfare check reminiscent of the Roman bread and circuses.
- The New York Daily News reported on February 3 that Pajamas Media correspondent Joe Wurzelbacher -- aka Joe the Plumber -- gave "political advice to conservative Republican staffers at breakfast" and that "[o]ne thing that needs to be done, he said, is killing this stimulus package, because it's just another example of 'American government' -- Republicans and Democrats -- 'kicking our butts left and right.' He also called it welfare."
- On the February 3 edition of Morning Joe, Brzezinski again asserted of the recovery bill: "There's a lot of welfare in there. There's a lot of spending. It's not stimulus." Scarborough replied: "We're the side of good Americans who are concerned about this package. We want a stimulus package." Brzezinski then added: "[Obama] may be the second coming, but the bill is not a stimulus package." When Scarborough later said, "We can do a lot of different things other than just spending money on old-style welfare programs," Brzezinski echoed, "Welfare programs," adding, "I'm all for food stamps, but why are they in this bill?"
- On the February 4 edition of NPR's Day to Day, Wall Street Journal senior economics
writer Stephen Moore claimed:
MOORE: Most of the spending in this bill has very little to do with economic stimulus or creating jobs. A lot of it is just political payback to Democrat interest groups like the unions and ACORN and organizations like that. There's also hundreds of billions of dollars for welfare programs. Now, that might be something we want to do when people lose their jobs, to provide them with welfare assistance, but that's certainly not a job creator. In fact, if anything, it keeps people out of jobs.
- On the February 4 edition of MSNBC's 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, while interviewing Coburn and Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), Brzezinski said: "Senator Coburn, I'll ask you this. I don't see how jobs will be created by welfare programs. And I also am not sure about these tax breaks that the Republicans want."
- During the February 4 edition of Hannity, Fox News contributor Kirsten Powers said: "Forty percent of the bill is tax cuts. I mean, you guys are acting like there's no tax cuts in it." Hannity responded: "No, no, no. It's not -- first of all, it's tax cuts if you define a tax cut as a welfare payment for people that don't get -- they're saying that people that don't pay taxes are going to get a tax cut. I call that welfare. Let's call it what it is." Hannity later stated: "If you don't pay taxes -- is that important? If you don't pay taxes, and you get, quote, what they're calling a tax cut, isn't that welfare? Let's be honest. Why are we lying to the American people?"
- During the February 5 edition of CNBC's The Kudlow Report, host Larry Kudlow claimed: "Various budget studies have shown $300 billion of programs don't work, not a nickel of those eliminations are in there. And, sir, you know, social spending, I mean, Medicaid, state assistance, welfare -- this could be built into the baseline. None of this has to do with economic growth. We could have a separate vote on social spending, but this isn't economic growth."
- In his February 5 column, National Review editor-at-large Jonah
Goldberg wrote:
The legislation's primary duty was never to stimulate the economy, but to stimulate the growth of government, the scope of the state.By spending hundreds of billions on things that have absolutely nothing to do with providing an immediate stimulus for the economy, Democrats hoped to make a down payment on their dream government. The billions for student aid, expanded welfare and health-care benefits, and bailouts for profligate state governments; the hundreds of millions for better museums and prettier government buildings; and the millions for smoking-cessation programs and bee insurance aren't just items on crapulent Democrats' wish list. The budget bloating was deliberate.
- In a February 6 column for FrontPageMag.com, Alyssa
A. Lappen wrote:
The Senate bill greatly expands welfare spending. There are $13.3 billion earmarked to raise health insurance for unemployed workers, $27.1 billion for increased unemployment benefits, and $11.1 billion for "Other Unemployment Compensation." Another $20 billion will go to raise maximum Supplemental Nutrition Assurance Program benefits (i.e., food stamps).[...]
The stimulus bill is something else entirely. If the Senate passes this "stimulus," it would merely be doubling down on legislative pork. In the end, not even calling such proposals "job-creating investments" can disguise the fact that the bill won't actually create jobs.
- During the February 6
edition of MSNBC's Hardball, Gov.
Haley Barbour (R-MS) claimed:
Well, this bill, according to the advocates for the bill, would let Mississippi have $54 million of additional money for unemployment. The only problem is, when you read the details, we get $3.9 million of that for what we do now. And to get the other $50 million, we have to expand unemployment to let people collect unemployment that have never been eligible in our -- in our state, including people who aren't willing to take a full-time job. Now, there's way too much of that in this bill, social policy, to the point it -- it's kind of welfare state 3.0.
- On February 6 edition of Hannity, Democratic strategist Douglas Schoen said, "Forty-two percent of the bill is tax cuts. We're going to provide stimulus to lower-income Americans. We're going to give people more cash." Hannity replied: "It's welfare. No, no, welfare as we know it is beginning again. An era of big government just started today." Hannity later added: "Look, I have a whole page here of pork barrel in this bill. You explain to me how Frisbee parks and golf courses and -- and a new welfare program, how does that -- how does that -- how does that stimulate the economy?"
- Heritage Foundation
senior research fellow Robert E. Rector employed the term in a February 6
"WebMemo," as DeParle reported
in his Times piece:
Robert Rector of the conservative Heritage Foundation released a paper slamming the House stimulus bill as a "welfare spendathon." With an expansive view of "welfare spending," Mr. Rector puts the bill's two-year welfare tally at $264 billion. (He counts things like Pell Grants, which help low-income students attend college, and Community Development Block Grants, which help low-income neighborhoods finance everything from sewers to crime prevention.)"I find it offensive that they're trying to sneak things in there," Mr. Rector said of the bill's supporters. "None of these programs deals with the fundamental causes of poverty, which are low levels of work and lower levels of marriage. They just say, 'Give me more.' "
Rector's paper has been promoted in a February 10 National Review piece by editor Rich Lowry, a February 10 syndicated column by Cal Thomas, and a February 6 blog post by U.S. News & World Report money and politics blogger James Pethokoukis.
- In a February 8 editorial, the Las Vegas Review-Journal wrote:
Let's stop using the word "stimulus" to describe the overflowing septic tank that's seeping through the hallways of Congress. Its sole purpose isn't to stimulate the economy, but to beef up government budgets, purchase the loyalty of dependent constituencies and leverage even more spending by the drunken sailors who've run their state operations ashore.That liberal federal lawmakers are willing to lead President Obama's full-court press for the debt-funded welfare giveaway isn't surprising. That they've brought state legislators onto the bandwagon is shamefully audacious.
- In a February 10 editorial, the Rocky Mountain News stated: "Several provisions in the stimulus package would immediately grow the welfare state. One would make Medicaid, the federal health program for the indigent, available to anyone who's unemployed - former millionaire CEOs and laid-off retail workers alike. Another measure would, for the first time, provide taxpayer subsidies under the COBRA health-insurance law. Either of these proposals would undermine individual responsibility, allowing people who can afford to pay for medical insurance from their own pockets to collect taxpayer subsidies."
- In a February 10 Wall Street Journal op-ed headlined "The Return of Welfare As We Knew It," former assistant secretary of health and human services Benjamin Sasse and former Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services administrator Kerry Weems wrote: "Through a little noticed provision of the stimulus package that has passed the House of Representatives, the bill creates a fund for TANF that is open-ended -- the same way Medicare and Social Security are." Sasse and Weems asserted that the provision is an "attempt to undo welfare reform" that "has not been transparent."
From the January 6 edition of Fox News' Studio B with Shepard Smith:
ENSIGN: At least make sure that you get all of the things that are -- the issues that are out there. Whether they're court issues, whether they're challenged-ballot issues, make sure that they're settled in a way that it doesn't seem like one side or the other stole the election. That's really important in cases like this because people turned out in record numbers in Minnesota. That's a really good thing.
SMITH: They did indeed.
ENSIGN: You don't want to discourage people from turning out because they felt like the race was stolen one way or the other.
SMITH: Senator, the president-elect wants a big economic stimulus package ready to sign as soon as he take office. It's somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 billion over two years, $300 billion of that in what we're being told is middle-class and business tax cuts. Senator, I know we don't know the details yet, but $300 billion in tax cuts -- how do you cut taxes on people who don't pay taxes?
ENSIGN: Well, that is one of the discussions that's going to be had up here on Capitol Hill. What they want to do is give tax credits. It's basically like a welfare payment because it's up above and beyond whatever taxes that they pay right now. The business tax credits and some of the things they're talking about there, those are important things, because if businesses don't have money, a lot of these businesses are going to go out of business.
From the January 7 edition of CNN's American Morning:
KIERAN CHETRY (co-host): And, Tara, it's interesting because Melissa said that, you know, in some ways the government can do better -- that's certainly the anti-conservative message. A lot of Republicans expressing concern the stimulus is too big. However they do admit that, Barack Obama included, as part of this proposal a massive tax cut in part to bring Republicans on board, so will he perhaps get bipartisan support for this?
WALL: Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree with Melissa, who I know. I don't think the government is the answer to solve these problems. I think certainly private entities do a much better job in communities and dealing with day-to-day issues of real communities.
There is a role for government to play, yes, and certainly in the economic situation we're in, there has to be some type of government intervention. But I think what Republicans want to see -- Republicans are encouraged about tax cuts, of course. Tax cuts have been a Republican mantra, and it was something that President Bush was roundly criticized about when he tried to institute them early on and was successful, and that's why I think the economy did move forward early on.
But at the same time, what Republicans are concerned about, and conservatives are concerned about, is not giving tax cuts to those -- to those who don't pay into the income tax system, which would essentially be more of what would be considered government welfare in some cases, and also making sure that we're stimulating the economy in a way that's also beneficial to small businesses. Government doesn't create jobs. Government is there to create an atmosphere that brings forth job growth --
CHETRY: Right.
WALL: -- and encourages job growth through small business, through private enterprise, and those are the types of things I think Republicans want to see.
CHETRY: In this proposal, I guess it would be a little bit of both, with the tax cuts plus the plan for the infrastructure improvements.
WALL: And it's good there's not going to be any pork. I think that that's good that we hold him to that issue --
CHETRY: No earmarks.
WALL: -- of no earmarks, no pork.
From the January 19 edition of Fox Business Network's Cavuto:
CAVUTO: Well, I'll tell you real quickly, Karl, the tax incentive component of this that was roughly 40 percent of it when we started talking about stimulus is now slipping down lower and lower and will likely be 30 percent.
ROVE: And look how much of that so-called tax cut is, in reality, a 20- to 40-dollar a week welfare benefit to people who have no federal income tax liability.
CAVUTO: And away we go. All right, my friend, thank you so much for helping us. We always appreciate it.
From the January 21 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: All right, let's start -- Barack Obama first. Any thoughts about his first full day?
MORRIS: Well, about his first 100 days, what I think is going to happen, I have an odd assignment for you, Paul.
O'REILLY: OK.
MORRIS: It's not the British you have to worry about; it's a horse, a Trojan horse. Obama's stimulus package is really a Trojan horse, where he's bringing it up to the gates of our Congress, he's going to get it passed.
O'REILLY: Right.
MORRIS: And he's going to say the purpose of it is to stimulate the economy.
O'REILLY: Right.
MORRIS: The fact is what it really is, if at best, is methadone. It eases us off of our debt addiction. But inside that Trojan horse are a whole variety of measures that will make us like France. Not quite Sweden yet, but France.
Eliminate the majority of Americans from the tax rolls, so that most Americans don't pay taxes and therefore don't care how high they go. Give the majority of Americans a welfare check under the guise of a refundable tax credit, so that we become a fully welfare-oriented society. To use the preferred stock that the government got in all of the major banks to squeeze out the common stock by hogging all the dividends and basically forcing the nationalization of banks and, therefore, our economy.
From the January 21 edition of Fox News' Hannity:
HANNITY: Governor, I guess the most important question is, is I believe that any Republican that supports this, if the numbers, you know, rounded to a trillion dollars of taxpayer money, they've abandoned their conservative values. I really do. Should Republicans oppose this?
ROMNEY: Well, I don't -- well, I don't kick anybody out of the party, but I do think that we ought to stand for principles that really relate to strengthening the economy, and that says at its heart and its core we believe that the private sector is the place that ought to be creating jobs. And we're going to make sure that the heart of any stimulus plan is to reduce taxes, encouraging people to spend on the items that they're going to be purchasing over several years. That causes businesses to grow jobs, to add investment.
Look, the idea of just sending out checks to businesses and sending out checks to individuals that's part of the Obama plan, that didn't work last time we tried it, about a year ago, and it's certainly not going to work now, either.
HANNITY: Well, and not only that, they've now redefined welfare as tax cuts. So 40 percent of people that didn't pay any taxes, they're going to get a check. Isn't that welfare, Governor?
ROMNEY: Well, I must admit that I'm -- I'm one of those that believes that everybody ought to pay something.
HANNITY: Me too.
From the January 22 edition of Hannity:
HANNITY: I've got my Escalade hybrid. I'm gonna tell you something. It doubles what my old hybrid had, and I love -- I love my Escalade.
All right. Let's talk a little bit more about finances. Obama's talking trillion-dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. All right? And, yet, he's calling these tax cuts. OK? This is a new definition of welfare. You don't pay any taxes, but it's going to be a tax cut and they're going to mail you a welfare check.
KATE OBENSHAIN (Republican strategist): Look, he promised to do this during the election. He promised to redistribute the wealth. And he's talking about raising the number of people who are receiving a refund --
HANNITY: Tell this to Caddell. He needs to hear this.
OBENSHAIN: -- who are receiving a refund who do not pay taxes. And yet, he's not cutting the taxes on the individuals who are most likely to be able to stimulate the economy. This is not a stimulus package. This is a pork package, and we need to be honest about that. The fact that most of this money isn't even going to reach the economy before the recession is over.
From the January 23 edition of Hannity:
HANNITY: All right. The big -- the other big issue that is facing this country right now is the economy. He's talking about trillion-dollar deficits as far as we can see. He's saying it's a tax cut, but people who don't pay taxes are going to get a check. Look, you've dealt with welfare in New York. Is that welfare?
GIULIANI: Yes. If somebody who's not paying taxes is going to get a check from the government, then that is a welfare -- you haven't earned it, that's a welfare payment. I think he's going to have to abandon that in light of the economic situation.
HANNITY: Are you thinking that he's really -- he's going to abandon all these things?
GIULIANI: I think so.
HANNITY: You really do?
GIULIANI: I think, as practicality emerges, you're going to see -- I'm hoping you're going to see a very pragmatic approach. I'm not sure if President Obama is an ideologue or a pragmatist. I am hoping and praying he's a pragmatist. We can get through it if he is.
HANNITY: You know, look, I'm going to tell you, my take on it is just the opposite. I think he's an ideologue. And I'll tell you why.
GIULIANI: Right.
HANNITY: Because, look, he's talking about anywhere from 850 billion to over a trillion dollars in a stimulus package. Trillion-dollar deficits as far as we can see. They're going to move on health care, which is --
GIULIANI: Right.
HANNITY: -- will alter this economy dramatically. Gitmo, I think, is we are redefining the war on terrorism. And we can go straight on down the line, instituting welfare. The era of big government is beginning again.
GIULIANI: Right. I hope that he and his people have read The Forgotten Man, Amity Shlaes' book that came out last year. I think it's back on the best-seller list. Basically it points out why the recession of 1929 which was a bad one, became the Great Depression of 11 or 12 years, and it became the Great Depression because of unwise government actions, first by Hoover and then by Roosevelt.
HANNITY: Right.
GIULIANI: And if -- you think you're going to get your way out of this recession by all kinds of social programs, welfare programs, you're just going to make it much worse.
From the January 26 edition of Hannity:
HANNITY: This raises the question: What do Republicans do to oppose it, Dick? They can't even offer, with these Draconian Pelosi rules, alternative bills. What do you suggest they do?
MORRIS: I think that the real threat of the stimulus package and of the whole Obama policies is that it's a Trojan horse. Inside the horse, there are socialists, and there's programs that will enhance socialism in this country. By stopping people from paying taxes, giving them welfare benefits, and giving the federal government preferred stock in banks that crowds out private owners.
From the January 27 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Bret Baier:
BRET BAIER (host): You know, there's a lot of focus, Fred, on these Congressional Budget Office projections -- estimates about when the money would really impact the economy. When you look at the new estimates, really the biggest impact is from the tax cuts at the front end, tax cuts that many Democrats opposed, right?
BARNES: You mean that Republicans opposed? You mean the one that will go to -- when the -- the refundable tax credits --
BAIER: Right.
BARNES: -- that will go to people who don't pay any taxes at all, or at least any income taxes? Sure, that money can get out pretty quickly. The question is whether Obama wants to give Republicans something that's not a tax cut that's welfare, but something that will actually help him and the economy. Remember what happened in the New Deal. After four or five years of all the infrastructure and all the projects, which can put people to work, FDR cut back. And what happened? There was not a strong, robust private economy to step in and take over because he'd raised taxes on wealthy people and attacked corporate America and so on, and didn't produce. What Obama -- what is lacking in this bill -- Obama needs, after a couple of years of stimulus, he needs a strong private economy. He's not going to get it from this bill.
From the January 28 edition of Fox News' Special Report:
CAMERON: Hiya, Bret. Well, majority House Democrats are in the final stages of ramming through their $819 billion economic stimulus package despite loud objections from the vast majority of House Republicans that it does not have anywhere near enough tax relief and it begins a spending binge that they argue ultimately will not stimulate growth.
[begin video clip]
REP. DAN BURTON (R-IN): This is just a down payment. We're going to spend trillions and trillions more. Wasteful spending into a black hole, in my opinion, and it's going to cause severe inflationary problems and economic problems down the -- down the road that nobody really anticipates.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD): The opposition to this bill can speak out against this recovery plan all they want, but their policies have not worked, and Americans -- Americans voted for change.
CAMERON: But instead of growing jobs, Republicans say the Democratic package grows government.
REP. KEN CALVERT (R-CA): This bill moves us dramatically closer to a welfare state. It is forcing people who are the backbone of our economy, the middle class, into a troubling kind of public dependency.
CAMERON: A new Gallup poll shows 52 percent want the stimulus passed; 37 percent oppose it. Democrats described their plan in biblical terms.
REP. ALAN GRAYSON (D-FL): It shelters the homeless, and it heals the sick. It helps us to look forward to a day when we beat our swords into plowshares.
CAMERON: As the final vote neared, Republicans unveiled their last-ditch alternative claiming that based on analyses developed by the president's own incoming senior economic adviser, their GOP plan will be much cheaper and create more growth.
From the January 30 edition of Hannity:
HANNITY: Are you -- but you're giving me platitudes here. This is important, I think, for our audience, important question. And we've got to do something. But is there a chance here that the fix, the cure is worse than the original problem? And we're talking about unprecedented money. The trillions of dollars we're putting, you know, of debt on our children and grandchildren.
CAROLINE HELDMAN (Occidental College assistant professor): Well, $800 billion. TARP was $700 billion --
HANNITY: With interest, 1.2.
HELDMAN: -- sure, up around a trillion.
HANNITY: So that's 2 trillion if you combine them.
HELDMAN: But every president who's faced this situation has had to pass a major package. What I like about this passage is that 40 percent of tax relief. Sixty percent is infrastructure --
HANNITY: For 2010, 2011, and 2012.
HELDMAN: Well, it's going to take a while to turn the economy around. But there's a lot of the package that's going to start immediately and kick-start the economy.
HANNITY: No, no, no, no, no. The only part is the welfare part.
LOWRY: The tax cuts -- the tax cuts start immediately, because it's very easy to get the tax dollars back in people's hands, sure --
HANNITY: We support that. Except for the welfare portion of that.
LOWRY: Yeah. I think just a straight rate cut in the payroll tax would make the most sense. But look, Democrats in the -- in the House are chomping at the bit to do this kind of spending forever. This is a political opportunity for them to gain -- engage in the sort of social spending they would -- they would want to do whether the economy is stalling or not. So this is fundamentally not a stimulus bill. It's a bill to put the United States government spending on entirely different footing.
From the February 2 edition of The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: OK, so does -- Obama seems to understand that now that some press organizations, not many -- most are just rubber-stamping because they don't care. They want a big government. They want the Democrats to set up an entitlement society. But I think Barack Obama understands now where he is in history. He's got one shot, as I said. And if he doesn't get a lot of money flowing into the economy quickly, it's going to be very bad for him. For him. So --
GINGRICH: Yeah, I mean, I think -- look, he's very smart. And I think he's beginning to realize that if this bill doesn't get changed dramatically in the Senate, if it doesn't have more tax cuts, if it doesn't shift money out of welfare into real infrastructure and out of political pork barrel into real job development, he's going to have hanging around the entire administration a failed bill by, oh, April or May. And it's pretty rapidly going to become the Obama recession.
O'REILLY: OK, now --
GINGRICH: I mean, he has a very brief period to get this turned around.
O'REILLY: Doesn't Nancy Pelosi get that? I mean, is she not smart enough to get that?
GINGRICH: No.
From the February 2 edition of MSNBC Live:
BREWER: I know that the -- that Senator McConnell is going to speak again in about 90 minutes. How does it help the two parties reach consensus if the Republican leader is saying the president should be embarrassed about this bill?
BARRASSO: Well, Contessa, I think there's great concern about this bill all across America. You know, we want to stimulate the economy. We want to make things start moving again, and that's not what's happening with this. This looks like a lot of pent-up projects, things people have wanted to spend money on for years. We've asked for -- the president has asked for shovel-ready projects, and all this thing does is shovel the money out the door. There's more money in this bill right now for welfare and for unemployment benefits, than there is for the things that we're supposed to be dealing with -- highways, roads and also bridges.
BREWER: When you're talking to your Democratic colleagues, do you -- are you looking in particular at them and saying, why are you putting in these other non-related, non-stimulus items? I mean, do they have a ready answer for you?
BARRASSO: They don't have a ready answer for me, and that's exactly what I'm asking them. I'm saying, if you want to do some of these projects, bring them up as part of the regular budget process. There may be some value in some of these, but not as an emergency package, a stimulus package to try to deal with this economy.
From the February 4 edition of NPR's Day to Day:
STEPHEN MOORE (Wall Street Journal senior economics writer): I think that the more that the American people are learning about what's actually inside this near trillion-dollar bill, the more they're disgusted by it.
ALEX COHEN (host): Stephen Moore is one of the authors of the book, The End of Prosperity. He's also the senior economics writer for The Wall Street Journal's editorial page. He takes issue with the stimulus package from a conservative prospective.
MOORE: Most of the spending in this bill has very little to do with economic stimulus or creating jobs. A lot of it is just political payback to Democrat interest groups like the unions and ACORN and organizations like that. There's also hundreds of billions of dollars for welfare programs. Now, that might be something we want to do when people lose their jobs, to provide them with welfare assistance, but that's certainly not a job creator. In fact, if anything, it keeps people out of jobs. So, I think that the other aspect of it that has really angered people is the amount of traditional kind of pork spending in the bill that has no place in a stimulus bill, everything from money for the National Endowment for the Arts, a newer sewer system in Washington, D.C., and on and on and on.
From the February 4 edition of MSNBC's 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with David Shuster:
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): I think you're asking about in Oklahoma City. But the basic point is that there is no economic multiplier like well-targeted investments in roads and bridges and transportation systems.
You look at somebody like [economist Mark] Zandi at Moody's, he has consistently said that, if you're going to wring the maximum value out of the stimulus dollar, it is well-targeted investments in roads and bridges and transportation systems -- I'm willing to work with some of those that we're lucky enough to have as fiscal hawks like Tom Coburn to make sure that we wring every possible cent of value out of the stimulus dollar.
BRZEZINSKI: All right. But again, when we look at -- and Senator Coburn, I'll ask you this. I don't see how jobs will be created by welfare programs. And I also am not sure about these tax breaks that the Republicans want. What do we know will actually stimulate the economy? And what in this bill defines "stimulus?"
COBURN: Well, I don't think there is a definition in this bill. That's part of the big problem with it. We know things that can be stimulatory, things that we know we're going to buy anyway and we advance the purchase on it -- resetting the military, roads and bridges. We have 243,000 bridges that are dangerous in this country today. We can -- and a good portion of those we can fix. We have sewer projects. There's no question we can do that.
As far as telling the people of Tulsa -- they know me. I'm not about to vote for anything that isn't a priority for this country or won't solve the problem. So half of what they're going to want I'm not going to support, and they know that.
From the February 4 edition of Hannity:
POWERS: Forty percent of the bill is tax cuts. I mean, you guys are acting like there are no tax cuts in it.
HANNITY: No, it's not. No, it's not.
POWERS: Yes, it is.
HANNITY: No, no, no. It's not -- first of all, it's tax cuts if you define a tax cut as a welfare payment for people that don't get -- they're saying that people that don't pay taxes are going to get a tax cut. I call that welfare. Let's call it what it is.
POWERS: You can have a --
BILL CUNNINGHAM (radio talk-show host): One hundred billion dollars is going to people that don't pay taxes. Is that a tax cut if you --
POWERS: They act like -- I feel like I'm, like, being surrounded. I know, but look, I mean, John McCain had the same types of tax cuts in his --
HANNITY: No, no, no. Answer Bill's question here. If you don't pay taxes -- is that important?
POWERS: Yes.
HANNITY: If you don't pay taxes, and you get, quote, what they're calling a tax cut, isn't that welfare? Let's be honest. Why are we lying to the American people?
POWERS: No, I don't think it's welfare. I think you can have, like, a tax rebate. You can have --
HANNITY: But you don't pay them. But they don't pay them.
POWERS: -- John McCain had that in his health care plan. I think you can --
STEVE SAX (former major league baseball player): Let me ask you a question. Let's say -- I understand the compassionate part at work, which Obama wants to exhibit in this plan. But let's take an example, if you have somebody that's on the side of the street. He doesn't pay taxes, but you're going to give you a rebate. Now, the guy that's leaning against that building that doesn't work, inside that building, he owns a business. He's going to create 10 to 12 jobs that year. Are you going to give him the -- are you going to give him a tax break or are you going to give the other guy a rebate? It's compassion and reality that really matters.
POWERS: It's not -- it's not an either/or. But it's not an either/or. Just -- you're opposed -- they're not the only people getting a tax break. I mean, there are tax breaks for all sorts of people.
From the February 5 edition of CNBC's The Kudlow Report:
KUDLOW: Well, that's the thing that seems to be missing. I mean, look, I had Senator McCain on the other night. He want -- his plan would restore Gramm-Rudman after signs of recovery appear. Senator Tom Coburn was in The Wall Street Journal. Coburn says, "Why isn't there a single program elimination in all this?" Various budget studies have shown $300 billion of programs don't work, not a nickel of those eliminations are in there. And, sir, you know, social spending, I mean, Medicaid, state assistance, welfare -- this could be built into the baseline. None of this has to do with economic growth. We could have a separate vote on social spending, but this isn't economic growth.
From the February 6 edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews:
CHRIS MATTHEWS (host): Yeah, I know. But what about Billy McCoy, your House speaker down there? He says you need the money. He can't -- he says he's incredulous -- or somebody said he said you're incredulous -- he's incredulous that you would stand against getting this money in the coffers of the state treasury.
BARBOUR: Well, of course, I can't speak for the speaker, and wouldn't -- wouldn't try to. But I will tell you, there are things in the bill like this. They talk about -- and David Axelrod, who, by the way, I greatly admire -- I think he's one of the great political operatives of all time in our country and anywhere else -- David mentioned unemployment. Well, this bill, according to the advocates for the bill, would let Mississippi have $54 million of additional money for unemployment. The only problem is, when you read the details, we get $3.9 million of that for what we do now. And to get the other $50 million, we have to expand unemployment to let people collect unemployment that have never been eligible in our -- in our state, including people who aren't willing to take a full-time job. Now, there's way too much of that in this bill, social policy, to the point it -- it's kind of welfare state 3.0.
MATTHEWS: What do you mean by -- I thought you had to be able to -- when you go to unemployment, you go down to the desk, you tell them what you can do, and they find a job for you. You're saying that that's not a requirement under this new system?
BARBOUR: That's right. In Mississippi today, if you go to -- say you're unemployed, we try to help you find a job. Until you can find a job, get offered a job, we pay you unemployment. But you have to be willing to accept a full-time job in order to be paid unemployment. This law, this bill, the stimulus package, would change that and would require Mississippi to get this $50 million, to change our law.
From the February 6 edition of Hannity:
SCHOEN: And I think in part [unintelligible], Chris is right. Forty-two percent of the bill is tax cuts. We're going to provide stimulus to lower-income Americans. We're going to give people more cash.
HANNITY: It's welfare. No, no, welfare as we know it is beginning again. An era of big government just started today.
SOPHIA NELSON (attorney): Well, but here is my concern. But I tried to bring this home earlier. If people like me, the attorneys, the doctors, the engineers, et cetera, are losing their jobs -- look at Wall Street has been hit very hard, the finance sector. Those are the people that you tax. Those are the rich. I'm the rich, by the way. I'm not, but that's what they call me. And so my point is --
HANNITY: No, the Kennedys are the rich.
NELSON: What I'm saying, if you drive -- if you drive people -- if those folks are losing jobs -- Obama's bill, and I support the president. I want him to do well. That bill is not going to help put this economy back on track. Not as it is.
HANNITY: Look, I have a whole page here of pork barrel in this bill. You explain to me how Frisbee parks and golf courses and -- and a new welfare program, how does that -- how does that -- how does that stimulate the economy?

















Here we go again.
It's time for them that has to beat up on those who have not. But in a good, proud, Christian way.
WWJD?
He'd never stop throwing up. (apologies to Woody Allen)
It is with great sadness that I write this letter urging you to vote against Jesus Christ for president.
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you," he blathered at a recent Senate hearing on Social Security, simplifying a complex issue as only a liberal would. Indeed, Jesus' socialistic remarks have enraged many would-be contributors to his campaign.
Well, the Christian Broadcasting Network will not waste its time and money supporting a candidate unwilling to recognize the blessed virtue of free enterprise. Our hard-working, god-fearing supporters regularly pay tax and tithe and are unable to continue supporting the freeloaders that Jesus would have us aimlessly throw our money at. "Tax-And-Spend Jesus" wants us to believe that our hard-earned money should be pumped into godless public schools and the sinful homes of single-mother welfare queens.
The reckless liberalism of Jesus Christ cannot be allowed to take hold of the Christian values this great country has fought so hard to preserve.
See the rest of this tongue in cheek article at: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/12/23mcintire.html
Who said "From him to whom much is given, much is expected"?
Here's a hint; it wasn't Karl Marx.
Oh, that was one of them thar Duke boys.....Luke. :-0)
"With great power, comes great responsibility." Megatonman's cat.
The funniest part is how often the Right accuses the left of playing class warfare. The reality is the Southern Strategy was an electoral effort at class warfare. What the Republican Party is all about is doing everything in their power to make the rich richer and the poor stay in their place. And they can't stand the idea of tax dollars being used to help blacks. That is the unltimate breaking point. We know more whites are on welfar than blacks but when a Republican mentions welfare, that is code to their flock for "black folks in the inner city."
Right-- but this welfare castigation isn't going to work this time like in 1980, because most people like the idea of middle-class entitlements and will calmor for more if suggested-- especially with the bad economy. It's a loser issue for Republicans.
Besides, it only worked in 1980 because so many angry people were WHITE. Not so any more. The repubs have proven that they have a great ability to anger ethnicities. It won't work for them now.
Here's a quiz for Republicans. Which of the following words is NOT found in the Constitution?
(1) GOD
(2) WELFARE
promote the general welfare means our laws and the constitution should only enact laws that promote the welfare of all, the country as a whole. It is not intended to give away money.
Well, you may be right, but nobody knows for sure; it's open to interpretation as you've just done. It could just as easily be argued that providing a safety net for poor people does help the country as a whole.... unless you think having millions of people living under bridges would be somehow less harmful...
One thing is certain, though; the Presidential oath in the Constitution does NOT say "so help me, God." The word "God" does not appear.
There's plenty of room under those bridges, ever since O'Really? cleared out those damned homeless vets.
I'm going to open up a bootstap cart under one of those bridges.
Isn't it funny how the ambiguities in our constitution always get interpreted in favor of the conservatives?
Of course the right to bear arms applies to all but to promote the general welfare doesn't apply to all.
i just said to promote the general welfare does apply to all, you must have missed that in my post.
No, I read that in your post.
I also read the part about how you think it's not intended to give away money.
As Nerzog and I pointed out, we interpret it to mean that the government provide a safety net for those less fortunate than we.
Another instance of the right and the left interpreting things differently.
I have some tea leaves also, can you interpret those as well? I would recommend you read Thomas Jefferson's writings. Since he is the true writer of the Constitutions, he does not talk about safety nets for those less fortunate. You can find as many ways to mis-read the constitution, but we all know it means Welfare of the country.
exactly. In fact, welfare programs as we know them didn't start for 150 years after the Constitution.
of the Poorhouse
Throughout the century before the New Deal, the poorhouse dominated the
structure of welfare -- or, as it was called then, relief. Although despised, dread
ed, and often attacked, the poorhouse endured as the central arch of public
welfare policy. Even in the twentieth century it did not disappear. Instead,
through a gradual transformation, it slid into a new identity: the public old-age
home. Its history shows clearly how decent and compassionate care of the
poor has always remained subordinate to both low taxes and the other great
purposes that have guided relief. American welfare has remained within the
shadow of the poorhouse. Poorhouses, which shut the old and sick away from
their friends and relatives, were supposed to deter the working class from ask
ing for poor relief. They were, in fact, the ultimate defense against the erosion
of the work ethic in early industrial America. Miserable, poorly managed,
underfunded institutions, trapped by their own contradictions, poorhouses
failed to meet any of the goals so confidently predicted by their sponsors.1
No James, I'd say by listening to today's republican party welfare programs have always run since the beginning of the country, and thanks to republicans nothing has changed.
In fact, Thomas Jeferson was a liberal. George Washington was a liberal. Liberals are the ones who built America as we know it.
It was liberals who brought us a better future. Liberals brought us safe water to drink, clean food to eat, safe medications for when we get sick.
Liberals are the ones who brought us better standards of living. Rural electrification, the interstate system, public education.
Liberals are the ones who fight for real family values. The five day work week, the 40 hour work week, social security, paid vacations, workman's comp., unemployment benefits. These measures enabled working people to balance working life and family life.
Now. Go find us any examples of conservatives bringing us any benefit of modern living. It's amazing that the same conservatives who have fought progress toward a better future every step of the way, have the damn nerve to call themselves patriots. It's amazing that you idiots have the damn nerve expect us to believe you have sense enough to understand the meaning of the words, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Wow--the Con responses are just pouring in.
ROUNDHOUSE, You are sooooo correct in that last post .
"We" all know. That's just it.You "know", I don't.
As I've said below, I'm a college dropout. All I can do is read the words and try my best to interpret what they mean.
I've read Jefferson. He was a genius but could not have predicted what we're up against in 2009. He couldn't have predicted the level of poverty we have today. He could not have foreseen that an eleven year old could buy a gun so easily and carry it to school.
Constitutional scholars have been arguing and debating the meaning of the Constitution for years. Even these educated men are not sure. I'm glad that you've figured it all out.
I can agree with your poverty statement to a degree, however 11 year olds may well have carried a gun to school in Jefferson's day, because they may have been responsible for providing for some of the family food on the way home from school. We used to have shotguns (and some rifles) in our vehicles at school, because, during hunting seasons we would go hunting after school, never the thought entered our mind to hunt our schoolmates.
I guess I should have qualified my post since I lived my youth in the city where guns were not an issue growing up. Most of my friends and I had never touched a gun until we got a letter from Washington that read "Greetings from the President of the United States".
Jefferson could, in fact, predict our current state. He spoke against inherited wealth as it would necessarily lead to an inequality that lends disproportionate political power to the have mores at the expense of the have nots.
Worrie, Unemployment was higher in the day of the consistution. 11 yr old boys during these times know only carried guns to school, sure they were hunting for food before school started. I am sorry you and many others are trying to change the constitution, but the document has stood for 150 yrs and will continue if you leave it alone. The sad part is in 150 yrs the government has tried to be our your giver, not your protector.
Conservatives often will insist on a "literal" interpretation of the Constitution, until broadening the meaning helps their agenda, then they see all kinds of hidden stuff in there.
i don't insist on a literal interpretation at all. The Constitution doesn't call for an air force either, so I don't know what your point is. if you feel promote the general welfare means what you say it does, it's fine. I don't.
...and your credibility is exactly zero. I don't really give a crap what conservatives think about this or that anymore. They are officially irrelevant.
oh, you mean how liberals broaden the right to privacy in the Constitution to include abortion? you mean like that? Cuts both ways
Yes, it does. But liberals aren't the ones insisting on a strictly literal reading. We recognize that interpretation is sometimes required.
For example, nobody can explain the First Amendment without resorting to words not contained therein. It requires interpretation.
Another example: A strictly literal reading of the Second Amendment is problematic for the NRA types, since it clearly ties gun ownership to a well regulated militia.
See? It's not as simple as you thought.
you were the one complaining about conservatives wanting to broaden the Constitution for their political agenda, not me. So I gave you an example where the left does just that.
No, I was pointing out that conservatives insist on a literal reading, unless a broader reading suits their agenda. Liberals generally have always used a broader reading, and are hammered for it by conservatives, even though they also do it.
If you're not a typical conservative, then congratulations.
Reading the Second Amendment a well regulated militia is mentioned, but there is no mention that every person had to be a member of that milita and yet the amendment states "the right of the people......". So what is the true literal reading of that or most of the other amendments?
The militia is the context. No militia, no context.
Nerzog one minute you giving me a hard time about using thew word hidden then you turn around and use the word. NICE, I guess you have learned how to use the word now, my job is done.
I think the word hidden is a perfectly wonderful word. I'm questioning your assertion that any given provision is "hidden" within the stimulus bill. You cannot hide something in a written document. Either it's there or it's not. It may be hard to find unless you read the whole thing, but it's not "hidden".
Now, if the language "implies" something then it is open to various interpretations. That is different from "hidden". I was using the word "hidden" above to mock conservatives, by the way, not to claim that something really is hidden there.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. So my interpretations is the Lord and God are the same, if I use your rules.
President Obama wasn't compelled to say "so help me God" he chose to say it. He doesn't appear to have the same fear of words as most liberals, like yourself, do. I don't believe he was politically, or otherwise, motivated to say God in his pledge to the nation, I believe he said it as a testament to his faith, therein lies your discomfort. Words themselves have no meaning until they are uttered in context and in his oath, the context was personal and has no bearing on anyone except himself. This is why I can never understand the liberal fear of someone uttering a particular word. I do believe Michael Savage is correct, liberalism is a mental disorder and so amply demonstrated on this website.
Where do you see "discomfort"?
I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone voluntarily saying "God". There is a big difference between that and the promotion of a particular faith by the government.
Nerzog's discomfort is rather clear in his post above. If you can't sense that in his dialogue then I am surprised you have the ability to judge dialogue content and it's meaning at all, unless you have selective cognisense.
So in other words, you can't specify what indicates that to you, but it's my problem for not seeing it. That's compelling.
It is not intended to give away money.
Such as?
promote the general Welfare
This, and the next part of the Preamble, are the culmination of everything that came before it - the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare - to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide. The framers looked forward to the expansion of land holdings, industry, and investment, and they knew that a strong national government would be the beginning of that.
and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
Hand in hand with the general welfare, the framers looked forward to the blessings of liberty - something they had all fought hard for just a decade before. They were very concerned that they were creating a nation that would resemble something of a paradise for liberty, as opposed to the tyranny of a monarchy, where citizens could look forward to being free as opposed to looking out for the interests of a king. And more than for themselves, they wanted to be sure that the future generations of Americans would enjoy the same.
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_pre.html
Nerzog, there are so many Constitutions out there, not sure which one you speak of; sure you have your own liberal one right there by your computer.
That's one of the strangest posts I've ever seen. Do you have a Constitution which contains the word "God", or what?
The sad part about this web site, I just tried to copy part of the U.S. Constitution into this area and said not, because of profanity. THis all makes sense now.
For the Record, it is for the Welfare of the United States, not the welfare of the citizens, No where in the constitution does it talk about you all getting free money, free health care, free food or any other welfare the states offer now.
"it is for the Welfare of the United States, not the welfare of the citizens"
Where does it say that?
"No where in the constitution does it talk about you all getting free money, free health care, free food or any other welfare the states offer now."
Nor does it mention States Rights, the Right to Vote or Separation of Powers.
Nerzog, now your changing the Subject from Welfare to other issues. Just go read it for yourself, LAZY
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
I did, DOUCHEBAG. Where does it say that it is for the "Welfare of the United States, not the welfare of the citizens"?
I can't seem to find it.... please help me.
I said read the whole, not the opening words - "Douch"
Section 8 -
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
I accept your apology!
Not so fast. Where does it say "not the welfare of the citizens". It makes no such exclusionary statement.
The use of "We the People" in the preamble can be interpreted to mean that "United States" does encompass the citizens.
I think its a judgement call. No points.
Stop typing and READ the whole thing, tell me were Citizens is talked about. Now sssshhhh, go read.
I didn't say it was, you did. You said citizens were excluded from the "general welfare", and that is your opinion. The Constitution does not specifically say that.
It does say "General Welfare of the United States" in Section 8, but it does not in the Preamble.
So, I will ask it again. How can you provide for the "general welfare" of a country, if you do not provide for the "general welfare" of its citizens?If you exclude the citizens, that only leaves the Government itself. Do you really think that's what they meant?
Certainly, you can argue what "general welfare" is or isn't, but I don't buy the notion that the Welfare of the Citizens is not included.
Oops. That should be "promote the General Welfare" not provide. Don't want any of you Constitutional Scholars to smack me down.
Are you playing stupid or did your mother drop you on your head repeatedly?
You ask us to read the whole thing. We've read it, probably many more times than you have. We love the document. You prefer to trash it when suitable, but hide behind it when necessary. Wimps, the lot of you.
The United States is not a country without the people. It goes without saying that the general welfare of the U.S. applies not only to the government and its entities, but by extension, the citizenry of the United States.
You're a dolt.
Common, the constitution does not tell the government will support its citizen. Typical liberal, attack a messenger, attack and call names. You are correct we are a country of Citizens, but the constitution was written to guide us as a country, not a docutiment to show us how to provide income to its citizens.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
The site notes:"welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being." So it's about the "health" and "happiness" of the country, not the citizens? I don't buy that. The site does say that "welfare" does not refer to programs for the poor in that context, but that doesn't mean such programs are inconsistent with the general prosperity of the population.
What section did you try to paste? You can't possibly be arguing that there's something intentional about that, the filter here is well-known to be flaky.
I can verify the filter's flakiness. It wouldn't let me type the words "hard" and "on" next to each other.
You found that out too??? I couldn't use the name of a Congressman several days ago, even though it was used in the main article at least twice>
Barbantio, yes, for the health, happiness and prosperity of your country, is that hard to understand? Read Section 8 of the Constitution, it does not talk about individual citizens, it talks about the Country as a whole. I know it is a big pill for you to swallow today.
How can a country have health, happiness and prosperity if its people do not?
no country can guarantee any of the things you mention. what we guarantee is the right and opportunity to pursue such things, for all citizens.
Exactly. Now, how does the government help guarantee this? By leveling the playing field for those who cannot help themselves.
And before you start whining about how there are people who can help themselves but take advantage of the government, save it. We know it exists. We just don't believe in making those who are truly suffering to suffer more just because there are a few bad apples in the cart who take advantage of the system. If you were truly worried about helping people but keeping freeloaders out of the system, you might insist upon investigation and prosecution of those who take advantage of the system. Instead, you'd rather wipe out the program just to save yourself 63 cents out of every paycheck. You folks on the right are so greedy - yet you call yourselves Christians?
People like you would rather refuse help for the myriad people who need it, just to keep a few freeloaders from the getting something for nothing. If you cannot see how moronic that is, you're either willfully dishonest or irretrievably stupid.
What exactly is the "health" or "happiness" of the country that is separate from "prosperity" and "well-being"? The country is comprised of citizens, and so when you say "general welfare" that refers to the latter.
Am I being uncivil? Your tone is entirely uncalled-for.
My tone is perfect, just feel sorry for individuals like yourself that do not understand the constitution. Since you do not understand what our founding fathers were saying you now want to change the words to meet your demands. I am sure if they used the word "gay" you would say there were racist, but you really know they meant happiness. You all are using words or terms that are recent to meet you needs. Sorry, does not work.
I'm using the definition provided by usconstitution.net, which seems to be a reputable and neutral site from all I see. How does that show I don't understand the Constitution? I specifically said it didn't refer to welfare programs, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think if they used the word "gay" I wouldn't say anything about racism.
Now, please answer my question. How is "health" different from "prosperity" if you're talking about the country and not the people?
Evidently these right-wing blowhards have been channeling Washington, Jefferson, et al. to get the answers to these burning questions. Of course, they don't realize that the constitution is open for interpretation, and that the founding fathers meant for it to be open to interpretation. If it weren't open for interpretation, or to be a living, changing document, we wouldn't have amendments.
what is also consistent with the general prosperity of the population are jobs, working Americans. So why not argue the Constitution guarantees a job for every citizen too? I mean that is promoting prosperity for the citizens, is it not?
Slippery slope. The goal of providing prosperity as best as possible does mean that any jobs have to be guaranteed.
the government is not in the business of providing prosperity, that's the point.
Because you took the idea and took it to an illogical conclusion? No, that doesn't make your point. Obviously it's in the government's interest to promote employment.
no, i didn't. You completely dodged the point. Who is arguing it's not in the government's interest to promote employment? we are talking about the Constitution and it's interpretation. you said providing prosperity, i am glad you backed away from such a ridiculous statement.
Providing prosperity "as best as possible". That's an important distinction.
If you're not arguing the government shouldn't promote employment, then what was your original point? I used the phrase you cite after your original response to me.
it's not important at all. the government is not in the business of providing prosperity, period. not even as best as possible.
I don't see the major difference between efforts to provide as best as possible and promotion. If you do, then use "promote".
Again, if that wasn't your point, then what was your response all about? I didn't use that phrase until after your other post.
i'm not the one who switched from promote to provide, you did. so if you want to change it be my guest. if you don't know what my point is, perhaps you should reread my response to you instead of just dodging it and calling it a slippery slope.
"what is also consistent with the general prosperity of the population are jobs, working Americans. So why not argue the Constitution guarantees a job for every citizen too? I mean that is promoting prosperity for the citizens, is it not?"
Well, if you understand that it's in the governments interest to promote employment, what is your point? How is that relevant to what I originally posted?
I didn't dodge anything. I specifically pointed out that a general desire does not equate a specific guarantee.
because you argued that although welfare does not explicitly mean programs for the poor, you said it is not inconsistent with the general prosperity of the population, did you not? And I responded that what is also not inconsistent with the general prosperity is for the government to guarantee every citizen a job. I just took it to the next very logical step, and then you called it a slippery slope, dodged it, went on about providing prosperity, backed away from that and said ok, call it promote then.
Because the point is that while the term doesn't specifically mean a welfare program as we know it, such programs may be consistent with that term. Saying that providing jobs for everyone would be consistent doesn't address that point at all. It doesn't negate what I said, because it's not the same thing at all.
There is no "dodge". I addressed what you said quite clearly.
Besides, taking it back to the original argument, I would hardly consider the money paid to Welfare recipients as "prosperity".
You're missing that it is in the government's best interest to ensure the happiness and prosperity of the American citizenry. Otherwise, there's not going to be a citizenry - and probably not the great constitution. Get it? It's a symbiotic relationship! One helps the other!
Please check out this study done by the Pew Research Center. Pay special attention to pages 12-18, which outlines the American public's perceptions regarding spending money on welfare and health insurance among other things.
http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/312.pdf
A few highlights:
When given the statement "Government should take care of people who can't take care of themselves" - 69% of all respondents agreed.
When given the statement "The government should guarantee food and shelter for all" - 69% of all respondents agreed.
When given the statement "The government should help more need people even if it debt increases" - 54% agreed.
Americans as a whole group, tend to favor helping the poor and needy and believe in helping their neighbors and "sharing the wealth." The republicans flat out use hate and fear to supress the will of the majority of the American people.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I didn't have a problem pasting the Preamble to the Contitution.
Here is another none graduate of any recognized University but he has the nerve to question an "Ivy League graduate", President Barack Obama. That is equal to a high school team taking on the Pittsburgh Steelers!
Your argument about the Ivy League somehow establishing superior thinking skills is invalid. Bush went to an "Ivy League" and he proved to be a dimwit.
I understand your point and agree about a dimwit like Hannity questioning an intelligent man like the president, but I've run into too many graduates of the best schools who are not all that bright. But then again I'm a college dropout.
Seems the only story line for MMFA is this one, MMFA has run this tired story about GOP and Welfare, is shows how much the are in the pot for Obama. It just proves more and more of the public do not like the Bill, we know it is pork and more so now, hidden agendas. It is a bad bill we know, but yet it is going to be pushed down onto us.
Since you don't know what "flat tax" means, I assume that you don't know what the "media" means either. <it's in the headline by the way>
So you "know" about the hidden agendas. That means they are not hidden.
As for hidden agendas, you must have been really upset at the number of "presidential signing statements" used by the last prez.
Benjamin, What I have learn is that in Hong Kong it is considered a FLAT TAX, I did my research and to them it is a flat tax, please do as I did and looking in the governments terms in Hong Kong, when your done you can tell me how wrong you were, Now to the real issue, yes, there are many many items hidden in this document, This should answer our question, yes, they are hidden.
hiddenFunction:adjectiveDate:13th century 1 : being out of sight or not readily apparent : concealed
Not sure if you are aware but Bush is not longer the president your D-cat Obama is, and he is not doing so well. I guess since you were so upset about Bush's wire tipping on foreign nationals your really going to blow a top when you find out in this bill the will get to keep tabs on U.S. Citizens medical records. Also, if the world is melting, why do we need to be buying iceburg breaking boats and automobiles. Hey Ben, yes they are still hidden in there and since you can not read, guess you will never find them.
But if they're hidden, how do you know they're there? Do you have special glasses?
Nerzog like Old Ben here does not understand def; of Hidden, so I posted it for you.
hiddenFunction:adjectiveDate:13th century 1 : being out of sight or not readily apparent : concealed
But, in a huge document like that, NOTHING is readily apparent, you have to find it. So, is the whole bill hidden? Is this particular provision printed in a smaller font than all the other provisions? Is it printed on the back? How is it hidden?
Now knowing you do not read past the first sentence, you will never know what it says.
So, which hidden agenda are you talking about?
MMFA has run this tired story about GOP and Welfare MARKYBOOTY
And now you have to figure out the meaning of the word "media".
Donald Tsang - The Chinese Territory’s chief executive has just announced that the flat tax will drop by one percentage point, from 16 percent to 15 percent. Sure you can call Mr Tsang and let him know he is wrong, that he does not understand that they do not have a flat tax.
Guess this is wrong also, I can do this all day.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jOIq84fao2oC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Hong+Kong+Flat+Tax&source=bl&ots=nCLdRDtf3L&sig=sOZ6lFtWwYC_vFCJZtwwE1D8IKU&hl=en&ei=7fiRSaemBeHAtge99_neCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result
Correct, you can be wrong all day! (Night, too!)
So Victor, the man that runs the tax system in Hong Kong is wrong, and you are the smartest guy in the blog. Wow!
Yay, we agree again!
Did not agree, just a statement, just the later to be honest.
Ok, I agree with your honest statement that you can be wrong all day.
Victor typical liberal, will turn the subject matter to something different, since the facts are to strong to except. You now turn your attention to the messenger instead of the message.
Take him around the shed and put him down like an old sick dog. - MARKYBOOTY
Typical conservative. Something bothers you - KILL IT!
Alan Reynolds of the Cato Institute similarly notes that Hong Kong's "tax on salaries is not flat but steeply progressive."[40]
THAT"S FROM THE CATO INSTITUTE!
But markbfoot199 has done research and thinks a ranging tax is flat.
Prepared by:
Marc-André Pigeon
Economics Division
23 August 2001
THE FLAT TAX IN OTHER COUNTRIES
Despite the superficial intuitive appeal of the idea and the high-profile nature of the U.S. debate, the flat tax has been adopted by only a handful of countries. The most widely cited historical example is Hong Kong, which imposes a maximum tax rate of 15%.(12) Business groups have cited the country’s flat-tax system as an important part of the Hong Kong economy. There are, however, many other factors that contributed to Hong Kong’s strong growth. In fact, it seems unlikely that the flat tax alone or even in large part explains Hong Kong’s success because other economies with much different tax structures but similar cultural and geographic characteristics (Japan, for example) have had similar trade records.
Would you like more? Or you can call all this individuals wrong also.
Hello Old Ben, Hello, guess he is gone.
Have a good life, BYE Old Ben.
Take him around the shed and put him down like an old sick dog.
Silly, now you want to KILL another poster that bothers you?
What part of "maximum" do you not understand?
No, it's just you that are wrong.
You seem upset...
A Single Flat Rate. All flat tax proposals have a single rate, usually less than 20 percent. The low, flat rate solves the problem of high marginal tax rates by reducing penalties against productive behavior, such as work, risk taking, and entrepreneurship.
And where is this from? Why the Hertigae Foundation...
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1866.cfm
And yet the quote you provide states...
...which imposes a maximum tax rate of 15%
That indicates there are different rates of taxtion.
Of course the conservatives will bash something that looks like welfare. Welfare is everything that conservatives stand against. Welfare is bad. It is a black hole that sucks people in and gives them no motivation to get out. It rewards you for having more and more kids by giving you more money. Why should you get money from the government if you are not contributing to society by working and paying taxes?
Why should you get money from the government if you are not contributing to society by working and paying taxes?
Using that definition I say let's get rid of the churches too. Especially the right wing ones.
Well, I don't know about getting rid of them. But, I do agree with you that they shouldn't get federal funds. Faith based initiatives was one of Bush's policies that I didn't support.
Welfare prevents abortions. The cons should be all for it.
IDI HE ASK, HOW DO YOU CUT TAXES ON PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY THEM? ASK THE WEALTHY? THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR 8 YEARS.
You're right....those wealthy democrats that Obama wants in his cabinet.
Do you REALLY want to go there, especially after the BS the last president pulled?
REALLY?
I'm taking about Obama here. Why bring up Bush? Oh yea, because you have no other argument. Is that in the liberal handbook? - "Anytime there is a question you can't rubutt, bring up the last 8 years of Bush."
All politicians are rich. It just that some of them have a conscience (Democrats).
By the way, what does "rubutt" mean? It sounds like some sort of sex act.
"It's" just that some of them have a conscience. You missed the "s" there. Just tought I would let you know.