Fox News invokes Canadian health care bogeyman in talking about Richardson's death
SUMMARY: In talking about Natasha Richardson's death, Betsy McCaughey and Martha MacCallum misrepresented a health-care provision in the recovery act and baselessly suggested the United States might be headed "down the same path" as Canada with regard to health care.
On the March 30 edition of Fox News' America's Newsroom, in talking about the death of actress Natasha Richardson, former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey (R) misrepresented a health-care provision in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, while co-host Martha MacCallum baselessly suggested the United States might be headed "down the same path" as Canada with regard to health care.
During the segment, McCaughey again falsely claimed that the recovery act "actually will require doctors to practice cost-effective care and the government will monitor it to make sure they do it." In fact, as Media Matters for America has noted, the provisions to which McCaughey referred address establishing a national coordinator for health-care technology and an electronic records system such that doctors would have information about their patients "to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care." Indeed, as FactCheck.org wrote, "there's nothing in the law that says the national coordinator will 'make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems ... cost effective.'"
MacCallum later said: "[I]n this piece this morning, one of the doctors in Canada said, 'Well, I don't really want the United States lecturing to us about our health-care system, because we don't have, you know, 40 million people uninsured.' But this is what they do have, a cost-benefit analysis when you're lying there on the table." She then asserted: "[I]t's such a sad story, and, you know, for the family ... woulda, coulda, shoulda at this point is not going to change anything in their lives, but it is worth examining on this basis because there are things in this provision in the stimulus bill that might lead us down the same path." However, President Obama has explicitly rejected replacing the U.S. health-care system with one based on the Canadian model. Salon.com's Alex Koppelman noted in a March 27 blog post that several conservative media figures and outlets have claimed that the Canadian health-care system caused Richardson's death.
Teasing the segment on Richardson's death, America's Newsroom ran on-screen text reading: "Did Canadian-Style Health Care Hasten Richardson's Death?"

From the March 30 edition of Fox News' America's Newsroom:
BILL HEMMER (co-host): Also, there is this -- Martha?
MacCALLUM: And now we have the 9-1-1 transcripts from the accident that caused the death of actress Natasha Richardson. Some critics are saying that Canada's health-care system does share the blame for her death. We're going to go through those transcripts. We'll tell you if there's anything in there to substantiate that claim.
[...]
MacCALLUM: Well, as friends and family struggle to move on following her death, there's new light today being shed on the possibly crucial moments that could have changed the fate of Natasha Richardson. The 9-1-1 transcripts have just been released, and they detail the following hours after her fall on the ski slopes at a Canadian resort. They also raise some questions about whether the Canadian health system played a part in her tragic death.
Joining us is health-care expert Betsy McCaughey. She is the former lieutenant governor of New York, of course -- Betsy, good to have you here today.
McCAUGHEY: Thank you.
MacCALLUM: You know --
McCAUGHEY: Very sad times.
MacCALLUM: It is, and as you go through some of what happened, you know, on that day: She fell down. She went back to her room. She rested for a little while. She's -- really didn't feel right.
They took her to a facility that was 25 miles away. And now we do know that there was a CT scanner there, which raises the question, was it used? We don't know the answer to whether or not it was used. But that in and off itself raise the question: Why wouldn't they use it if it was there?
McCAUGHEY: Well, Dr. Paul Saba, the emergency room physician, has told the press that doctors have to do a cost --
MacCALLUM: Right.
McCAUGHEY: -- benefit analysis. In the U.S., when an accident victim is brought in, all resources are used. That patient is given every chance to live. Unfortunately, there's more and more emphasis on cost-benefit analysis, and the new stimulus legislation just passed in Washington actually will require doctors to practice cost-effective care and the government --
MacCALLUM: So --
McCAUGHEY: -- will monitor it to make sure they do it.
MacCALLUM: -- what on earth does that mean? You know, you have this woman, she's young.
McCAUGHEY: That's right.
MacCALLUM: And she's lying there -- they have a CT scanner. And it's my understanding that we don't know whether or not they used it, but there's no doubt that what you're talking about -- this cost-benefit analysis -- went into that decision.
McCAUGHEY: Exactly. And it's very important for Americans to understand when they hear that the government is going to lower the cost of your health care, it means fewer nurses on the floor, longer waits for treatment, and doctors who are forced to think about the cost before they give you the treatment to make you live.
MacCALLUM: And, I mean, in the current system here, they're going to employ whatever they have available to them.
McCAUGHEY: Exactly.
MacCALLUM: And now, you're going to have the doctor perhaps saying, "Well, you know, we're not sure. It looks -- I mean, it's very unlikely that this is anything serious. It wasn't a great fall." But then you get this bizarre set of circumstances where, indeed, it was.
And the other thing I want to ask you about is the helicopter issue, because there was no chopper. You know, they wasted a ton of time when you think back on it -- 25 miles to the first hospital, and then another two-hour plus over to the Montreal trauma.
McCAUGHEY: And time is critical with this kind of injury.
MacCALLUM: Yeah.
McCAUGHEY: And medevacs are much more common in the United States. They do enable skiers and people who are in remote places to get emergency care when needed.
MacCALLUM: So, you know, about the helicopter issue -- I mean, in this country, she would have been choppered out of that area and probably brought to New York, right?
McCAUGHEY: In most ski resorts that's available now. But the really critical issue here for all Americans is to think twice about whether they want to lower their health-care costs if it will mean that they don't get the care they need to live.
MacCALLUM: Because I thought it was interesting -- in this piece this morning, one of the doctors in Canada said, "Well, I don't really want the United States lecturing to us about our health-care system, because we don't have, you know, 40 million people uninsured." But this is what they do have --
McCAUGHEY: I do want to see people go --
MacCALLUM: -- a cost-benefit analysis when you're lying there on the table.
McCAUGHEY: Exactly. And there are ways to give people health insurance -- they already get emergency health care --
MacCALLUM: That's right.
McCAUGHEY: -- in the United States --
MacCALLUM: Absolutely.
McCAUGHEY: -- but there are ways to give them health insurance, without taking away what everybody already has insurance expects when they're in an accident.
MacCALLUM: Yeah. And it's such a sad story, and, you know --
McCAUGHEY: It's a very sad story.
MacCALLUM: -- for the family, it's a -- you don't want is -- woulda, coulda, shoulda at this point --
McCAUGHEY: That's right.
MacCALLUM: -- is not going to change anything in their lives, but it is worth examining on this basis because there are things in this provision in the stimulus bill that might lead us down the same path.
McCAUGHEY: Let's scrimp on the things that we don't need to save our lives.
MacCALLUM: Thank you, Betsy -- Betsy McCaughey.















Betsy's latest check from Big Pharma musta cleared.
**applause**
now ask yourself... why would Texas-lite, NeoCon HARPER's Health Minister be at the AT&T-funded Denver DNC with Obama?
gee, could it be that they are COLLABORATING to kill off Canadian healthcare as well as PREVENTING AMERICANS FROM GETTING ONE OF THEIR OWN?
Think about it.
"Did Canadian-Style Health Care Hasten Richardson's Death?"
MacCALLUM: And she's lying there -- they have a CT scanner. And it's my understanding that we don't know whether or not they used it, but there's no doubt that what you're talking about -- this cost-benefit analysis -- went into that decision.
Absolutely freakin' outrageous! Just when you thought FOX News could not stoop any lower...to use this young woman's tragic death to try to score political points. Freakin' incredible...!
Natasha Richardson initially refused medical attention and the paramedics were sent away. It was only later, perhaps when it was too late, that she began experiencing symptoms of head injury and the paramedics were called back. But on what basis can this excuse for a human being on FOX even suggest that a CT scan was not performed?
every fox employee must check their soul when they enter the building. standard News Corp policy
You are assuming they have souls...of which I am not entirely convinced. Honestly, how much lower can these people on FOX get? No freakin' decency...just a bunch of scumbags who would probably be spouting liberal talking points in a New York second if the money was good enough.
while i believe you may be right, im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they have souls and just signed contracts in blood, stipulating they would check their soul, and consicience at the door.
Yeah, this really is a new low, isn't it? May they rot in hell-- and they will.
p.s. --today, several cable newscasters kept referring to her as "Denise Richardson," so I guess things could be worse....
You kinda sound like a religious right-wing nut, talking about "souls", etc.
Gee, another wingnut who thinks gops have cornered the market on God. What are the odds?
he is being snark jw. it took me a few sparring matches with him to figure that out.
hey believing in souls and god isn't the soul perview of the neo con nutbags
Your're wrong. They must sell or permanently surrender it as a condition of employemnt.
These clowns at FOX NOISE have no consience, class, decency, or respect. All they are about is furthering the EXTREME RIGHT WING of the REPUBLICAN PARTY to the exclusion of all else.
i'm especially confused since she died in new york
After brain function ceased, and she was only kept alive on life support, she was brought home to New York where life support was disconnected and she was allowed to die.
Those d%&$ed Canadians !
Maybe Fox News wasn't the first to speculate the issue of the death related to a poor health system up north:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Movies/story?id=7139585&page=1
The story was first reported on 3/21.
Lots of rural areas in the U.S. lack "trauma centers," too. And there are only a few in parts of L.A. Some areas lack any-- like South Central.
See the answer to our Canadian friend below! My guess is that a helicopter ride from southcentral to a trauma center is rather brief and allows for expedient care to the injured.
Nice distraction, dj. Way to divert attention from the fact that your disgusting rightwing brethren will politicize any tragedy, any where, usually while accusing everyone else of politicizing tragedy.
Pathetic.
dj, what you posted suggests a "quebec" problem, and not a canadian one. "doesn't match what's available in other canadian cities".
DJ.....how can you call yourself a decent human being right now.....you just jumped on this bandwagon of neo con idiots.
where is your sense of decency.
Oh, so because Fox wasn't the first to make the claim then that legitimises their statement?
The right takes such pleasure in other people's suffering.
manicalmonarch,
I take no pleasure in anyone's suffering. In fact, I believe the tragic outcome had a great deal to do with a subpar emergency care system. One that many fools in this country want to lead us into, socialized medicine.
there's never been any proposal that would ban anyone from going after additional care through either an extra insurance program or direct payment.
You take no pleasure in anyone's suffering yet you continue to post?
i cant see how the canadians could be blamed given that Richardson herself asked the EMT's to leave cause she felt fine. not knowing the extent of her injuries. when she began showing symptoms they were called back and did everything they could.
how is that subpar?
Whether there was a trauma center in proximity is an ENTIRELY different matter... FOX is questioning, without any factual basis whatsoever, whether the dying woman was deprived a diagnostic CT scan because of a cost/benefit analysis. Shame on FOX...
He's talking about the location of facilities not 'cost-benefit analysis.' This quote has nothing to do with what FOX is talking about.
The issue of Quebec's health care in comparision with the rest of Canada is rather complicated. They have opted out of the national system and have a province wide system all their own.It is similar but the funding goes in different places than the rest of Canada. That aside I have a few points for you to consider. Richardson opted out of recieving care when it was offered.We all know the quicker you get examined the better. It was a very bad decision and all outcomes derive from that first mistake.Was she insured?This took place in a rural area where if compared to any rural area in the USA is probably abouth the same.To just start guessing and taking two dolts on Fox word for anything is just plain silly. They are trying to use a tragidy to score political points while slaming a health care system they do not understand. As a Canadian I get tired of the insinuation that our system is somehow not up to snuff. Just one more reason to live in a great country like Canada.
There is no national system in Canada. There are national standards. Every province is responsible for their own health coverage. Some provinces cover to the national standard, and some cover more.
Helicopters? They are these new-fangled inventions that get people to trauma centers, they go to and fro, even into remote/rural areas. They can do this by strategically placing these so that the injured can to a trauma center. In my semi-rural area, a 1 1/2 hr drive is traversed by helicopter in about 17 minutes.
Did you miss the part where she very unfortunately refused treatment? No helicopter on the planet could have changed that, weirdo.
So all you got in response to those questions is "Why don't they have a helicoptor?" as if that's a save all. Can helicoptors save all? What's that - they can't fly in all weather? And in Canada they have more severe weather that would ground a chopper? Etc, etc, etc? And the final question - do you know if she was brain dead before they ever called for help the 2nd time? Recalling how republicans reacted to terry schaivo, I really don't think much of your ability to speculate.
no helicopter does not equal poor health care
you just got schooled by a canadian who knows a heck of alot more than you. in the interest of trying to be a good person and help you save whatever shred of dignity, or sliver of humanity that you possess. SHUT UP
Quebec is the largest province in Canada. Because of this helicopters would be useless in most cases (although there is a private not for profit one available). Instead, the Quebec Government owns 1 dedicated air ambulance jet and 2 backups (a jet and a plane) that can be used as air ambulances. These are used to transport people to and from the remote areas of Quebec or at times between cities that are relatively long distances apart. These fixed wing aircraft would not have been useful in this case. Given the short aamount of time that the trip took (less than an hour) there is also no guarantee that a helicopter could have gotten things done any faster either (once you factor in the time that it takes to startup, lauch, travel, etc.
Canada is wonderful. I'd move to Canada in a heartbeat if y'all had a more hospitable climate.
grab your coat and come on up
The Southern Border of Ontario is the SAME LATITUDE AS NORTHERN CALIFORNIA.
Why is it that Americans don't know this?
maybe its because American corporate media's 'weather reports' always emphasize how 'cold fronts are moving in from CANADA'...
have you considered that poisoning the borders along the Rio Grand (just like Laos & Cambodia!) & running Predator drones along Canada's Border (just like Afghanistan & Pakistan! ...that's so NEIGHBOURLY!) is about KEEPING YOU IGNORANT of how everybody else lives...
gee, maybe the American Dream ain't so different from any other human being? or maybe the 'American Dream' isn't about the citizen or individual... but ACTUALLY about keeping you down under the thumb of Money & Power... while telling you that 'As An American' you NATURALLY lord over everybody else?
surprise, the 'American Exceptionalism' ain't so exceptional.
"But the really critical issue here for all Americans is to think twice about whether they want to lower their health-care costs if it will mean that they don't get the care they need to live."
How ironic, considering the choice we've been given by the private insurance industry is to raise our health-care costs while being denied the care we need to live.
Very true. Massive reform is needed.
Wha? I thought 'socializing' healthcare was going to make it cost much more? I'm pretty sure that's Sean and Rush told me.
If we were "headed down the same path" as the Canadian Health Care system, I wouldn't mind at all!
Why does everyone only look at Canada's Health Care system when talking about universal health care? We are the only industrialized nation without it, and with the worst health standards.
Could you list some of that pork that is in the budget?
If he can find some, I'd like some beans and a corn muffin to accompany it.
Some lipitor and antibiotics would be nice too. Now that I can't afford health insurance I haven't been able to afford a doctor, and thanks to the changes the republicans made to UI, as a family mine can't qualify for extra benefits because at $1200 a month my wife makes too much. wish I could meet some of those welfare cheats the right is so adamant about, because I have yet to find a way to take advantage of this system...
You mean all those welfare cheats aren't out driving pink cadillacs listening to Aretha Franklin? Sheesh.
I stood on the corner near my old job and held a sign that said "will close your computer plant for food". They threw dell laptops at me.
Ask Charles Schummer, he acknowledged it was there and said that the American people don't care about a little pork, or have you forgotten. But back to the medical issue, I am all for a total revamping of our medical system so I am not an opponent but it is hard to believe that in the Province of Quebec there is not one medical helicopter. The initial delay was strictly the result of her refusing care but a helicopter may have given her a better chance once the need was recognized. Of course that is speculation on my part but I think it is a question worth asking, as are many others as we consider a new system. Should we just blindly accept whatever is proposed?
Who is going to blindly accept what is proposed? I am sure the Democratic Congress will discuss it once it is proposed. I am also sure that the Republicans will have already voted NO, as they already have, before it is even discussed.
Now you talk about helicopters..this woman REFUSED, once again REFUSED further treatment. If this would have happened in America and she REFUSED treatment, would they have bound and gagged her and flown her to a hospital?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, just practicing Repubic Speak.
As I noted she did initially refuse treatment, but then help was summoned a second time and had a helicopter been available she may have had a chance, but in the Province of Quebec apparently there is not one medical helicopter. You should read my post a little closer before you instinctively criticize. People should be discussing this issue now and letting their congressional representatives know what they think and not waiting until a proposal is drafted to talk about it. Anything wrong with that?
ASS_U_ME...
The issue is being discussed in an ugly manner by the Cons and has been discussed in an ugly manner by the Cons for years. Let's get on with it. How about doing it the old-fashioned way, have the Congress vote on it.
America will speak but the Cons won't like it.....they will partake in any savings but will moan and cry about it...after they say NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Do you have all the facts behind her death to make that claim, or are you once again speculating? Because everything I've read says the exact reasons are yet to be released.
Oops, spoke to soon. You are speculating, you said so. And then used your speculation to suggest an answer.
How about we just let the experts get the facts and weigh in?
One expert checked in last week. Jim The Sexual Harasser Quinn and the Phony Christian Radio Rosie did the same thing, blaming the Canadian Health System for her death. No facts, just idiotic Con jibberish.
I wouldn't be surprised if Liam doesn't go on TV and blasts these haters for using his wifes death to muster hate points against HealthCare for all.
And if anyone needs to know about Mr. Quinn, he was a frequent visitor to the bar at the Holiday Inn in Forest Hills PA, just outside of Pittsburgh and near his employment. He was known for his drunkedness and dope binges, just some coke.(P.S. I know one of the waitresses that worked there and swears by this. Mr. Quinn, if you'd like to comment on this, be my guest) But, he had American HealthCare so he lived. If Quinn would have been a Canadian drunk or drug addict, he would have died. Just using ConLogic.
On the + side, I've been to a few canadian strip clubs. They give you a menu - how cool is that? "I'll take a slab of Jamacain with french thighs on the side, please"... ;)
What claim did I make, read again please. Don,t you think that had a copter been available it MIGHT have helped, or is that too far fetched for you. Once again your instinct is just to criticise .
With all the time you had to respond to my statement I am amazed you didn't look at my follow on. Once again your instinct is to just respond too. Hi pot...
And to point two, you speculated. You don't know what really happened. MIGHT is another guess on your part. When I was a marine one point that was continually driven home was to "never assume, because it makes an @SS of U and ME". You might want to consider my D.I.'s advise...
What I do know is that the Province of Quebec lacks a medical helicopter system, that is a fact . and the head of trauma services for 6 Montreal hospitals has suggested that the lack of a helicopter might have contributed to her death, is he enough of an expert for you. And I was not assuming anything, I was suggesting that the helicopter might have helped, do you disagree? Apparently you are missing the point. And I learned the same lesson about assuming but not from my DI, but a high school teacher instead. And teachers teach us to think also, my DI only taught us to obey orders and the "Army way".
While a helicopter may have made a difference, since she refused care, I guess it is all speculation. The province does have an air ambulance service though...
http://www.msg.gouv.qc.ca/en/aerien/mission/evacuation.asp
And the decision to not have a helicopter was a provincial government issue. Not anything inherently wrong with the Canadian Health Care model per se as far as that goes. And you know what, anyone in province won't end up bankrupt for using their air ambulance services.
And while that situation may not be optimal, at least in Canada they don't need a charity such as RAM going in and providing basic care for it's citizens...
http://www.ramusa.org/expeditions/schedule.htm
If that doesn't make you question the system in the US, nothing will.
Obviously you have not read the entire thread, she did initially refuse care, but later a 2nd 911 call was placed, that is when the helicopter would have been useful and may have saved her, but of course we will never know. And the air ambulance system is not the same as I am sure you know. In this situation it would not have been of any help at all. And I am not defending the US system, it stinks .
Again, all you have is speculation. If they had had a Star-Trek style transporter, they could have gotten he to a hospital IMMEDIATELY. That argument is exactly as worthwhile as yours, that is, not worthwhile at all.
That is a pretty dumb response, I am repeating the opinion of a trauma expert, you just like to be combative , as usual.
Appeal to authority is a classic logical fallacy. Your repetition of an opinion from some unspecified "trauma expert" who was probably nowhere near anyone associated with the Richardson case, is a fine example.
I do enjoy being combative, especially when a wingnut gives me prime idiocy to combat against.
but of course we will never know. - fairlib
"So I'll speculate anyway."
Suggesting, assuming, pretty much parsing if you ask me. Heck, I read about a doctor saying he believes she died of a subdural hematoma - he speculated too. There is no point to miss, unless your point is that you want to use an assumption to sway congressional opinion.
With people losing their jobs and health care, will this meme continue to work? I mean, even some of the hard core Foxiphiles must deal with the insurance bureaucracy, what with the gun accidents and smoker's hack (kidding).
Not a report. Just the latest installment of the 'Dumb and Dumber' franchise.
"while co-host Martha MacCallum baselessly suggested the United States might be headed "down the same path" as Canada with regard to health care."
I certainly hope we are heading toward a Canadian style health care system... or a Swedish system... or a German kind... any of which is absolutely and unequivocally better at allowing their citizens access to all the health care available in those countries!
The Single Payer Universal system issue / debate is NOT about whether health care in Canada or the USA or China or anywhere else in world is better or worse than here in America...
IT IS ABOUT ACCESS TO ALL THAT GREAT CARE!! PERIOD!
I'm so sick and tired of FoxNoise and corporate owned news in general in skewing this issue!
I have said this before... I'll say it again...
Whether any of you like it or not...
WE ARE ALL IN THIS THING CALLED SOCIETY TOGETHER!!
And we all better get that through our heads or we are in big time serious trouble!
neo cons do not believe such a thing. they see society as those who contribute to their power and the rest of us who are there to exploit
THEJBOMB, Icouldent have said that better myself.
Never have I ever heard of a cost benefit analysis being done during treatment at any hospital in Canada. They do what they need to do to diagnose you. If it's an emergency, they do it right away. For a chronic problem, there will be some waiting involved, but never when they determine that something is life threatening will you have to wait.
Let me sum up this Fox News discussion:
"We have no idea about the facts, but it happened in Canada so it must be bad and it's a great opportunity for us to advance our pro-insurance agenda."
That's all this really is.
Despicable.
Could you provide a link to that statement.
Here's a link:
http://mediamatters.org/discuss/200903300029#457519
I second that alinkment.
Fairliberal, you want a link, got to the post above this one. You will see what is written.
...Whereas in America you can be filmed on the security camera as you fall off the chair in the emergency room waiting area and die of a heart attack while employees walk around you and/or turn their backs. State-of-the-art equipment awaits behind the doors to American hospitals; it's just a little matter of getting through the doors that seems to be the problem.
APPLAUSE
...& if you're lucky, when the cops beat you senseless on & off camera, in or out of the hospital (Duana Johnson anybody remember HER... beaten ON CAMERA in Emergency... then the medic walked PAST HER... to treat the cop who beat her?? she got shot dead after filing complaints... funny that... )
Americans SHOULD BE SO LUCKY as to have the Canadian healthcare I've enjoyed for 40+ years.
What I WILL EMPHASIZE is that NEOCONS hate public healthcare. They'd rather slam it into a profit-making scheme based on the misery of others & create 'markets':
NeoCons exist in the current Canadian parliament under Harper's gov't & Cabinet. They're Texas Lite 'we love the TarSands!' NeoCons straight out of the Evangelical Conservative Calgary region... you know the SAME REGION that recently paid to HAVE GEORGE BUSH speak ... countermanding Canadian Law that demands BUSH BE CHARGED FOR WARCRIMES.
interestingly, Obama ain't that progressively Liberal. In fact, Harper's Health Minister was in DENVER last year during the AT&T-funded DNC.
Gee, I wonder why...?
Well, Canadian NeoCon (not all, just a LOT of them) Doctors spend MOST OF THEIR NON-REQUIRED Hospital HOURS, taking their heavily funded education to the USA & Caribbean to ... not return to a society their obligations... but to work in private HIGH COST clinics...
basically, they're ungrateful bastards who would rather live like the ungrateful bastard NeoCon Americans who have both hands in maintaining a privatized clinic HealthCare system.
Selling out their neighbours, so they can grind them into poverty when they're ill... & living like hogs off a medical system that is jacked up to support a high-affluence, high-consumer-based healthcare scheme...
the ONLY problems with the Canadian healthcare system is that DOCTORS are trying to kill it to CREATE AN AMERICAN SYSTEM that would be as ugly here, as it is THERE... because those doctors don't care about their patients, they care about not LIVING A STANDARD THAT THEY SEE IN THE USA... which is based on misery & selfish indulgence.
I play chess with people all over the world every time I have occasion to play with someone from Canada I ask them to rate there heathcare system everyone of them rate their system good. these are the common people who use their system all the time. the Fox reporters all full of sh&& pure and simple.