Conservative media claim prosecution of Bush administration officials will turn U.S. into "banana republic"
SUMMARY: Conservative media figures are comparing possible prosecutions of Bush administration officials for their roles in authorizing the use of harsh interrogation techniques to circumstances in a "banana republic," in "Third World ... dictatorships," or "some little Latin American country that's run by ... the latest junta."
In the aftermath of the release of Bush Department of Justice memos authorizing the CIA to use enhanced interrogation techniques with detainees, conservatives are comparing possible prosecutions of Bush administration officials with, in the words of radio host Mark Steyn, "the sort of thing that happens in banana republics."
Examples include:
- On the April 21 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, radio host Bill Cunningham said of possible prosecutions of Bush administration officials, "Well, we shouldn't criminalize legal advice," later adding, "It makes us look ... like a banana republic, where each succeeding administration looks backwards."
- On the April 21 edition of Fox News' Hannity, Fox News contributor Karl Rove stated: "[W]hat the Obama administration has done in the last several days is very dangerous. What they've essentially said is, if we have policy disagreements with our predecessors, what we're going to do is we're going to turn ourselves into the moral equivalent of a Latin American country run by colonels in mirrored sunglasses, and what we're gonna do is prosecute systematically the previous administration or threaten prosecutions against the previous administration based on policy differences." Moments later, Rove added, "Now, that might be fine in some little Latin American country that's run by, you know, the latest junta -- it may be the way that they do things in Chicago -- but that's not the way we do things here in America."
- On the April 22 broadcast of his radio show, Sean Hannity stated of Republican responses to the potential prosecutions, "[A]ll I hear is a bunch of mealy-mouthed complaining about how this prosecution threat is unprecedented and we don't need to investigate past administrations like they do in, you know, these Third World, you know, dictatorships, which by the way, is a great point."
- On the April 23 broadcast of The Rush Limbaugh Show, guest host Steyn said of prosecuting former Bush officials, "That is the sort of thing that happens in banana republics." He continued: "[I]n banana republics, this week's president for life takes over, and he decides that all the fellows that supported last week's president for life are now criminals, and he prosecutes them. And that's what -- that's what the Obama administration has done."
- On the April 23 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, Glenn Beck stated: "[Y]our principles as the president of the United States needs to be, we don't make ourselves into a banana republic." He later added, "We also don't want to set the precedent that the next president can come in and turn a political issue into a legal issue and put those people in jail. This is what's happening with [Venezuelan President Hugo] Chavez now. The guy who's running against him just left the country because they -- this is what banana republics do, OK?"
Additionally, in his April 23 New York Post column, Ralph Peters wrote, "Show trials have long been popular with leftists. Those who don't conform to each jot of doctrine become 'enemies of the people.' From Stalin down to Putin, and from Mao to Castro, vengeance disguised as law has been a mega-hit."
From the April 23 broadcast of Premiere Radio Networks' The Rush Limbaugh Show:
CALLER: I absolutely love your comment earlier on the Constitution and how wonderful that everybody else gets constitutional rights outside of the United States.
STEYN: That's right. But it doesn't apply -- the U.S. Constitution now only applies outside the U.S. That's the way it seems to go.
CALLER: Exactly.
STEYN: And you had, actually, a constitutional point on some of this investigations into torture.
CALLER: Well, the ridiculous person of our Homeland Security -- what's her name, Janet?
STEYN: Janet Napolitano, yeah.
CALLER: Yeah. She needs to pick up the Constitution and read her amendments. It's really disgusting, especially the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments are legal rights against prosecution and the retroactivity of taking the Bush's administration and going -- it's like this, the Democrats, "OK, we don't like this, so we're gonna change all the laws to conform to us."
STEYN: Right.
CALLER: "And everything that you've done before that law was there, now we're gonna go back." Isn't that against the Constitution, even a little?
STEYN: Yeah, you're right, it is unconstitutional. You're saying, in effect, it's like making a law that sets the speed limit at 30 miles an hour, and if you'd been driving at 40 miles an hour two years before the new law was brought in, they would be prosecuting you for speeding.
CALLER: Well, yeah.
STEYN: Essentially, this is retrospective punishment for what is the Democrat administration's view of the war, rather than the administration that was in power at the time. And as you say, that retrospective criminalization is unconstitutional and actually predates the United States, 'cause if my memory's right, they got that from the King George III in the British Parliament, where it was a basic acceptance that you couldn't retrospectively criminalize activity. In other words, you couldn't pass an act of Parliament in 1622 and suddenly what some guy had done in 1588 was against the law.
Yeah, that's what they're proposing -- that's what they're proposing to do here. And there's a more basic point at work here, Lori, which is I think the ugliest thing about this, is that it is the criminalization of politics. And essentially it turns politics into a criminal battle. That's very dangerous.
That -- that is the sort of thing that happens in banana republics. You know, in banana republics, this week's president for life takes over, and he decides that all the fellows who supported last week's president for life are now criminals, and he prosecutes them. And that's what -- that's what the Obama administration has done.
In a healthy society -- this is where the MoveOn.org has just infected the Democratic Party in deeply ugly ways. Because they don't like Dick Cheney. That's fair enough. They don't like George W. Bush. That's fair enough. What they don't realize is that they have a difference of opinion with Bush and Cheney. That's not enough for them. They have to actually make what Bush and Cheney did illegal. And that is where we are heading into banana republic territory.
Because it's not. Dick Cheney -- and shame on Patrick Leahy, by the way, who is one of the most deeply unattractive senators, and I don't just mean in the sense that a couple of recent summers in Montpelier, Vermont, I mean, walking down whatever it is -- State Street there, and I've seen him in his shorts. I don't [laughs] -- I'm not thinking of Pat -- I mean, he's deeply -- I've got -- no, he looks cute in his shorts, but he's very unattractive in what he's doing here, which is the criminalization of dissent and the criminalization of politics. And that is straight out of banana republic territory. You have a difference with -- of opinion with Dick Cheney, you don't then say we're gonna get Dick Cheney's opinion ruled illegal. And that is what's going on here.
From April 23 edition of Premiere Radio Networks' The Glenn Beck Show:
BECK: OK, so why did he do this? He either did it for principles, which I don't -- I just don't see that, because your principles as the president of the United States needs to be, we don't make ourselves into a banana republic. And I don't mean the store -- which isn't doing well either, but that's a different story. We also don't want to set the precedent that the next president can come in and turn a political issue into a legal issue and put those people in jail. This is what's happening with Chavez now. The guy who's running against him just left the country because they -- this is what banana republics do, OK? I don't believe that he's either this incompetent, this stupid, or just doesn't care. Maybe you do, I don't -- just doesn't care what it means for the following administrations.
Unless there's another reason for it. Remember, he is not -- he's not re-establishing or restoring the promise of America. He is rebuilding it. Well, you don't rebuild something unless you take it apart; then you rebuild it. He is rebuilding. He is a progressive. He is a guy who doesn't see America as -- you may think he sees America the same way, but until you really understand who progressives are, you don't see America the same way he does. Unless you know who progressives are. Not the little -- "isn't that the car insurance company? That's great." You really know who these people are, and I don't mean today, I mean the whole history of them. You know who they are? OK. Then you know him. And then you can say, he sees America the same way I do.
I think there's a possibility he did it because he's got to -- to be able to continue to rebuild, he must keep George Bush on life support. He must keep wheeling George W. Bush out. He's -- if -- once he closes the door and says we're not going to look back, then everybody must be focused on him. So does he need George Bush for fuel to be able to keep a bogeyman alive, to keep us talking? But why are we debating torture? Why are we debating something that happened right after 9-11? We didn't go through this stuff when we put people in internment camps, for the love of Pete. They didn't put FDR in jail. Well, he was dead, but they didn't put his advisers in jail.
From the April 22 edition of ABC Radio Networks' The Sean Hannity Show:
HANNITY: Some Republicans have disappointed me, though, in this threat that now exists to prosecute Bush officials for keeping America safe. Do you realize that if those interrogations were that effective, that that is what kept America safe from another terrorist attack? That is what protected American citizens. That is what protected American towns. That is what has protected American cities. You know, all I hear is a bunch of mealy-mouthed complaining about how this prosecution threat is unprecedented and we don't need to investigate past administrations like they do in, you know, these Third World, you know, dictatorships, which by the way, is a great point. But how about Democrats? They were all briefed on the waterboarding, and they all approved. Nobody in the media's bringing that up. None of that seems to matter. You know comments like -- you know, that -- unless you bring it home to them, I don't think they get it.
From the April 21 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight:
LOU DOBBS (host): All right. Let's start out with this reversal on prosecution -- Bill, let me turn to you first -- on prosecuting Bush administration officials. What's your reaction?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, we shouldn't criminalize legal advice. The policy was set by Georgie Bush. It was not set by the cufflinks in the Justice Department. I think what this is going to set is a precedent where maybe Georgie Bush should have indicted Bill Clinton and his advisers for the Denise Rich thing. Or maybe the next president, Mitt Romney, is going to indict Obama's Justice Department for what Eric Holder's doing. It makes us look, Lou, like a banana republic, where each succeeding administration looks backwards.
And I think here, Obama is flip-flopping from Sunday with Rahm Emanuel to today with his presidential press secretary. And what message does it send to the world when we start indicting lawyers for giving advice?
DOBBS: I don't know. But it's one I -- the way you just styled that, it's one I may want to think about a little bit.















Huh? Banana Republics are known for their lawlessness. Right-wingers are such idiots.
And I'm sorry about calling it "banana republics". That's a term coined by Americans decades ago to describe Central American countries whose banana industry was taken over by private American interests, i.e. right-wing poweful businessmen who cracked down on those who wanted the resources of their countries to not be given away to foreign powers.
Precisely! "Banana Republics" were run by an American corporation - United Fruit - with the US Marines as a police force (please see "War is a Racket").
This is Karl Rove's cliche about military officers in mirrored sunglasses repeated and repeated and repeated and...
The United States WAS run by a junta... we're just trying to walk it back from there. Jeez. It's not that difficult to understand.
You've got to be f--king kidding me. Prosecuting war criminals will degrade us?
Sounds like the same geniuses who said if Nixon ever went to trial it would cause another Civil War and Ford avoided that with his pardon.
Actually, Nixon seems a bit saintly beside of G. W. Bush. Let us press on by having a fair trial to see exactly who was guilty of pushing this torture garbage that some nut in Washington pressed on our own guards in the U S POW camps we set up. There is NO intellectually honest interpretation other than to acknowledge that out country compulsively tortured during the BushII presidency. Whether the idea came from Cheney as I feel sure that it did, BushII WAS the President and he is responsible for his own leaderdhip. I know that Cheney really was the big cheese during those 8 years and remember. Cheney was BushI's choice only after Cheney and BushI forwarded Cheney's own idea of being #2. Obviouslyh those two more or less appointed Cheney as the Veep nominatoion. I am certain that GW's daddy understood that his own son had such a deficiency that he needed Cheney to take care of GW. So both Cheney and BushII are responsible for the totally illegal war and the war crime of the prison guards' torture mess that occurred.
I have always viewed Cheney as the source of evil in the Bush administration. I still believe that W was more or less like the Turtle on the fence post... had no clue how he got there, what to do once he's up there or how to get down. I think history will conclude that he was inserted into the White House by political intrigues beyond his comprehension, and he was just along for the ride.
Our first clue should have been when Cheney was asked to head up the VP selection process, then selected himself. That should have been enough to tip us off that something was very wrong with that pairing.
loonz: Southern military officers were tried after the American Civil War. Wasn't the officer in charge of Andersonville Prison hung? Not to mention the War Crimes trials after WW II, of course...
In a Banana Republic, officials are expected to do whatever the dictator wants, regardless of legality.
Prosecuting to enforce laws agaisnt torture is the opposite of that notion.
Gee, all these cretins apparently got the same memo. And who is the guy/gal writing this pap ? And how do they get all these parrots to repeat it? It's absofreakinglutely demented.
The RNC blast fax machine has them all on speed-dial.
Moments later, Rove added, "Now, that might be fine in some little Latin American country that's run by, you know, the latest junta -- it may be the way that they do things in Chicago -- but that's not the way we do things here in America."
I'll be sure to bring my passport the next time I go to Chicago.
Fox (har har) "news" is a joke. A sick joke that has no credibilty, at all.
Not only that, they are a bunch of sadistic jerks, who get off watching and reading about torture.
25 to 30 percent of the public find them credible though (which is a shame). FOX "News" is a total embarrassment.
Loony Bill Cunningham's only chance to be on CNN is on Dobbs' hatefest. Figures.
Scott Horton notes that Fujimori just got given 25 years in prision in the "banana republic" of Peru:
"As part of a counterterrorism campaign against Maoist guerillas, he authorized the use of torture and the “disappearings” of hundreds, and a Peruvian court just passed judgment following a full trial. The sentence: twenty-five years in prison. Peru shows how a healthy and self-confident democracy deals with serious misconduct by a head of state."
and they also have some cool old steam locomotives
I once got a cool shirt at banana republic.
I went to a week long independence party at a banana republic ( 1962 ). the bananas were good and my parent's loved the drinks they made with banana's.
Actually the US was turned into a banana republic by none other that the intellectually lazy and incompetant G/ W. Bush. That says it all.
well, the Constitution was not totally replaced, although the leader acted as if didn't exist and was actively placing his people in positions of policy making to dismantle the document. The Liberty Bell was not only cracked in reality but also cracked in spirit.
We continue to let in illegal invaders from Latin America and we WILL be a Banana Republic.
zamifir273114:
"We continue to let in illegal invaders from Latin America and we WILL be a Banana Republic. "
This message is brought to you by the people who watch and listen to limbaugh, beck, malkin, dobbs et al and have no idea how low in the world america's reputation has fallen because of this. The same idiots who believe 24 and wrestling are real.
And what are those (EEEEK!) "invaders" doing?
GASP!
Why, they're washing our dirty dishes in restaurants, harvesting our vegetables, and taking care of our lawns! And taking jobs away from Americans who don't want to do those jobs in the first place!
Oh, the horror!
why don't you run for office and do something about it, rather than continually spout limbaugh's rant ?
Like banana republics? Really?
Naturally. Whenever you right wing pukes have to face the music for your crimes against humanity, it's anarchy. dictatorship, blah, blah, blah. Shut your collective, self-serving, pie holes and take some personal responsibility for your torturous acts if the facts show you have violated the rule of law. You know, submit to the law of the land if, that is, you truly love that very land upon which you walk.
Suck it up and and understand that no man is above the law. Equality of justice is the American way.
And why is Karl Rove on tv saying anything ever? Has he no shame? He is one of the key conspirators behind the fixed intelligence on the false 9/11-Iraq connection.These horrible neocon people were torturing fellow human beings with the express intent of making their subjects say exactly what Cheney, Rumsfeld. Kristol, Wolfowitz and Perl wanted to hear. Don't forget that slime ball David Addington or the coward, Yoo. Screw that junk. War for empire to control an energy supply that is fading in our rear view mirror is the way of the suffocated worldview. The occupation of Iraq is as evil as it is myopic. As a working ideal, oil at all costs, is more beyond the living than Plain's vapid begging of America to exploit Alaska's oil reserves so oil companies could have even more income redistributed to them. Oh, yeah. The bonus (for all you hardcore right wing market fundies) is that vulgar Marxist that Palin is, not to mention confederate style secessionist, she has done nothing to end the practice of 'forcing Alaskan oil companies to share their profits,' with the good citizens of Alaska. That is actual socialism. But I guess it's all good when the 'right' people are in charge of disbursing the largesse. Right? It's not socialism. It's savvy capitalism.
Hypocrites.
Y'all suck. man.
I think you're on to something here. One of the little terds that keeps bobbing to the surface is that they waterboarded these guys so many times, not to uncover some future plot, but to make them implicate Saddam Hussein in the 9/11 attacks. Apparently, that little fishing expedition came up dry.
If that comes out in a trial or hearing, the whole WMD Big Lie campaign is up for examination. THAT, I think, is what the Troglodytes fear most, because THAT is their biggest crime.
Ron Susskind said the other day that the torturing was initiated due to not finding WMD's in Iraq and the Bush junta was desperate to save their a**es POLITICALLY.
You must view anything that came across Roves' desk through the prism of politics.
Wow roundhouse. Great rant man
Thank you, solon.
Missed you tremendously.
RIGHTWINGERS accept responsibility for their actions? You have got to be joking.
How is prosecuting someone who did something against the law in the US considered a bad thing? I thought the republicans were law and order kind of people/party? Are we to now think that no matter who does what as president, they can't be held responsible after they're out of office? This is a ridiculous notion. I heard someone waxing nostalgic about how if Obama prosecutes the guys who wrote the memos authorizing torture, that this would in a sense make legal opinions illegal. Well, if they opinions being written were illegal in nature, and then the opinions being written were acted upon, such as in this case, shouldn't the people who said "OK" be held accountable? And at the end of the day, the main person accountable is one George W. Bush. He's the decider, and he decided to torture people.
They are, but only when Democrats are being railroad..., er, prosecuted.
Sorry Karl et al. but you already turned us into far worse than a Banana Republic. A former chief economist at the IMF has stated that our current economy resembles that of an emerging nation rather than the developed economy it is supposed to be.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/simon-johnson-on-america_n_190697.html
Columbia professor and Nobel Laureate, Joseph Stiglitz, agrees with Johnson's views: As the former chief economist of the World Bank, "if I had come and visited the United States, we would have cut off all aid to the United States. It wouldn't have passed muster," he testified at the Joint Economic Committee hearing.
These are the same guys who either cheered from the sidelnes or, in Scarborough's case, were front and center in the impeachment of a President for lying about an act of sexual misconduct.
"Hypocricy" is not strong enough anymore to describe these idiots. They've created a whole new dimension of the term that deserves it's own word.
John Stewart ahead of the curve as usual: "Balzheimer's"
Cheney and Rove suffer from this disease in which you have the balls to accuse others of doing exactly the same thing you did or advocated while coventiently forgetting you did them.
See Huff Post or Comedy Central clip from Wed. night.
Somebody needs to dig up some old clips of these same liars wringing their hands and almost crying becuase they just didn't know how they'd explain to their children why the President of the United States could lie and get away with it. Remember that?
We were told repeatedly that if Bill Clinton wasn't punished for his little fib that the whole judicial process would collapse, that no court testimony could ever be trusted again because the charge of perjury would be a joke. The very RULE OF LAW was threatened, they told us.
Remember that?
Apparently the average FOX viewer doesn't remember that.
Yeah, but if you're a liberal, you could find yourself Up Against the Wall!
As I watch this, I can't help but think the Troglodytes are winning this debate. I think they have very cleverly kept the focus on the waterboarding of two top level Al Qaeda people.
These guys are not very sympathetic characters. A lot of people will look at footage of 9/11 and think "They deserved it".
If the Democrats pursue this investigation, it must be broadened to the overall treatment of ALL detainees, and it must include the dishonest selling of the Iraq War.
As bad as the waterboarding was, it pales in comparison to the cost in lives and dollars that we incurred chasing Dick Cheney's phantom WMDs.
The Troglodytes are trying to save themselves by tossing Nancy Pelosi on the tracks and insisting that she signed off on the torture. Well, if she did, too bad. She can go down with them.
They're going to run wild with this ridiculous theme. I heard Hugh hewitt the other day ranting about the prosecution of BushCo., and he used the words "witch hunt" and "McCarthyism".
I thought I had a winner in the crackpot derby, until the next day, when I was listening to another wingnut radio show. A caller went the fantastic slippery slope route asking "If Obama's going to prosecute thr previous administration, what's to stop him from pulling a Hugo Chavez and declaring himself President for Life?"
I swear, that's a very close paraphrase, if I didn't get the quote verbatim.
I'm sure it's close enough. The Talk Radio Troglodytes have been whipping up fear amongst their addle-brained listeners since January. It's no wonder that they're hysterical at the prospect of their heroes facing trial.
Of course, they have no clue that the same Rule of Law that allows the former prohibits the latter.
Col.: Don't forget when "Rudi" was Mayor of New York City, after 9/11 he tried to get the law changed so he could run for a third term because the good people of that City - and the United States - needed him so much.
The good people had the good wisdom to say "No thank you!"
That is nutty but don't forget that folks on our side were saying Bush might try to cancel the election in 2004 and even in 2008. That's pretty nutty too (although Bush had a record of ignoring the Constitution which Obama doesn't have.)
I don't think Clinton actually did take his eye off the ball. He and Richard Clarke were pretty much the only ones who recognized what a threat al Qaeda was at that time. The Republicans were accusing him of trying to use it as a distraction.
Actually in several books that I've read about the subject (Ghost Wars especially), they did mention that due to the ongoing prosecution and impeachment of Clinton, his mind was not fully on governing the country, or looking out for national security, as in, because of what the republicans in Congress were doing, Clinton had to defend himself, go to depositions, sit and answer stupid un-related questions for hours, days, and weeks at a time, when he should have been, well, running the country.
The republicans were accusing him of using Bosnia and going after terrorists in Afghanistan and other locations as distractions, true. We see what happened with that whole mess eh? And honestly, our "good friends" Pakistan, were very complicit in both bringing the Taliban to power, and also in protecting them.
On a related note on the Clinton impeachment, Sara Robinson, has some insights as to why the Republicans went after Clinton for such petty crap. Of course we all know it was for payback, but she puts it, among other cognitive frameworks, into the context of how the conservative view of discipline through the assertion of power differs from the liberal view of discipline through natural and logical consequences.
It's a good read, here's a taste:
When you think about it, it’s not hard to see how this dangerously uniform bipartisan consensus against creating actual “accountability moments” came about. The bracing revelations of Watergate were followed by the Church investigations and Iran-Contra—all of which were liberal-style open inquiries that sought nothing more than to establish the truth and restore justice, but shook conservatives to the core. What the Democrats saw as doling out logical and natural consequences (break the law, go to jail—what’s so hard about this?) the conservatives experienced as being on the receiving end of an authoritarian-style punitive smackdown. They were powerful people, above punishment. This wasn’t ever supposed to happen to them. (How dare they challenge our authority?) Being who they were, they couldn’t help seeing it as anything other than pure payback, a raw demonstration of power. And the only appropriate response was to show the Democrats how very, very out of line they were—by disciplining them in the conservatives’ preferred way, with a show of unrepentant and overweening force.
Which, of course, led to the full frontal assault on Bill Clinton. They had to teach that boy who was boss, and get him back in line. The Democrats, in turn, were so stunned by the ferocity of the whole thing (there was nothing logical or natural about any of it) that they decided, en masse, to make sure it never happened again.
"[A]ll I hear is a bunch of mealy-mouthed complaining about how this prosecution threat is unprecedented and we don't need to investigate past administrations like they do in, you know, these Third World, you know, dictatorships, which by the way, is a great point."
I love this. Is it mealy-mouthed complaining or a great point?
I admit my antennae are up somewhat these days but I think this latest meme is pretty obvious race-baiting. Using the term "banana" in an extended series of nearly identical attacks directed at the President sends a powerful signal to a host of bigots, now the backbone of the Republican base. Somebody (Rove?) sold the idea that adding "republic" provides camouflage and deniability. Where are the media on this one?
A good Posting there 'Scootman'..The Republicans will have to make a decision whether to keep denying and continue supporting the Bush Adm. As more info comes out it is obvoius that there was an attempt to control dissenting views..legal and moral ...on what was torture.Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention and US law on torture makes this far more clear cut as to what happened.It is not going to fly that this administation is trying to criminalize what it disagrees with about the prior administartion.They knew full well what was legal..and did a poor job in trying to get legal cover..largely after the fact.That they may have tortured children and other innocent civilians is deplorable.How will Republicans defend such a position when challenged in a campaign setting???Now they are making statements that may come back to burn them politically .Someone like John McCain should certainly know better.The media is not challenging them on the legal precedence.The Executive branch can't just change the law based on a few legal opinions from partisan lawyers.