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Rove falsely smears Pelosi as "an accomplice" to torture

May 14, 2009 5:47 pm ET
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SUMMARY: In his Wall Street Journal column, Karl Rove claimed that because Nancy Pelosi was allegedly "informed" of the Bush administration's use of enhanced interrogation techniques, her non-action made her "an accomplice to 'torture.' " The claim is inconsistent with the definition of "accomplice," as well as with the reality of Pelosi's ability to affect the Bush administration's actions in any way.

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In his May 14 Wall Street Journal column, Karl Rove claimed that because House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) was allegedly "informed" in 2002 of the Bush administration's plans to use enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs) on detainees, her non-action made her "an accomplice to 'torture.' " Rove wrote: "On Sept. 4, 2002, less than a year after 9/11, the CIA briefed Rep. Porter Goss, then House Intelligence Committee chairman, and Mrs. Pelosi, then the committee's ranking Democrat, on EITs including waterboarding." Rove later asserted: "If Mrs. Pelosi considers the enhanced interrogation techniques to be torture, didn't she have a responsibility to complain at the time, introduce legislation to end the practices, or attempt to deny funding for the CIA's use of them? If she knew what was going on and did nothing, does that make her an accessory to a crime of torture, as many Democrats are calling enhanced interrogation? ... Are [Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and House Judiciary Committee chairman John Conyers (D-MI)] and other similarly minded Democrats willing to have Mrs. Pelosi thrown into their stew of torture conspirators as an accomplice?"

Rove's claim is not consistent with either the definition of "accomplice" or with the reality of Pelosi's ability to influence the Bush administration's conduct of interrogations. Black's Law Dictionary defines an accomplice as "[o]ne who knowingly, voluntarily and with common intent unites with the principal offender in the commission of a crime." Black's states further: "One is liable as an accomplice to the crime of another if he gave assistance or encouragement or failed to perform a legal duty to prevent it with the intent thereby to promote or facilitate commission of the crime."

But Pelosi could not have "failed to perform a legal duty to prevent" the conduct if she was in fact powerless to stop it. As Vicki Divoll, a former deputy counsel to the CIA Counterterrorist Center and general counsel of the Senate Intelligence Committee from 2001 to 2003, wrote in a May 12 New York Times op-ed: "[A]s a practical matter, there was very little, if anything, the Gang of Four [in 2002: former Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL), Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL), former Rep. Porter Goss (R-FL), and Pelosi] could have done to affect the Bush administration's decision on the enhanced interrogation techniques program."

According to Divoll, the members of "the so-called 'Gang of Four' " were each "briefed orally and it was understood that they were not to speak about the program with anyone, including their colleagues on the committees.' " Divoll wrote that "if they had decided to march down to the House or Senate floor and denounce the Bush administration for engaging in torture," the "speech and debate clause of the Constitution," which "shields senators and representatives from civil and criminal liability in the performance of their legislative duties," would have protected them, but that "that approach not only could have harmed C.I.A. operations, but also surely would have been political suicide." She further wrote that "[t]o stop [the program], they needed the whole Congress," but that "[f]our members do not have the ability, on their own, to bring the great weight of the constitutional authority of Congress to bear." Indeed, as the minority party in the House until January 2007, House Democrats had no power to force the Congress as a whole to do anything.

Moreover, even if Congress had passed such a law (over President Bush's all-but-certain veto), the Bush administration had taken the position that such an act would be unconstitutional. An August 1, 2002, Justice Department legal memo stated that "the President's power to detain and interrogate enemy combatants arises out of his constitutional authority as Commander in Chief. ... Congress may no more regulate the President's ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield." That memo was rescinded in June 2004. Despite the memo's withdrawal, when Congress passed the Detainee Treatment Act in December 2005, Bush attached a presidential "signing statement" in which he essentially reserved the right to override restrictions contained in the bill, as the Boston Globe reported on January 4, 2006. The December 30, 2005, declaration read:

The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act [the Detainee Treatment Act], relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of ... protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.

From Divoll's May 12 New York Times op-ed:

The framers of the Constitution gave aggregate, not individual, powers to the legislative branch. For the Gang of Four to have waved their arms and yelled at mid-level C.I.A. briefers, or written harsh letters to the president and vice president, would have been useless. Four members do not have the ability, on their own, to bring the great weight of the constitutional authority of Congress to bear.

There are C.I.A. "covert action" activities -- like the detention and interrogation program -- that because of their significance, and risks, require participation from both the White House and the Congressional intelligence committees in their initiation and oversight. The National Security Act defines covert action programs as those designed "to influence political, economic, or military conditions abroad, where it is intended that the role of the United States government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly."

[...]

Of course, the real reason that notifying four members of Congress was better than 40 to the Bush White House is crystal-clear -- to eliminate political pushback. Check the box that Congress was informed just in case, someday, the program becomes public and things get rough. But do so in a way that the legislative branch is not in a position to cause any trouble.

In Article I of the Constitution, the framers gave Congress two extraordinary powers over the executive branch -- the power of the purse and the power to make laws. It is unconstitutional for the executive branch to spend one dime on a program for which Congress has not appropriated funds. And if Congress passes a law forbidding the executive branch from engaging in an activity, it must stop, or people go to jail.

But four members cannot stop financing and ban activities on their own -- that takes the whole Congress. So what might the four have done? They could have demanded that the full committees receive the briefings and that more information be provided. If the White House objected, they could have told their colleagues anyway. The committees then could have put a classified budget provision in the intelligence authorization bill for fiscal year 2003 cutting off money for the program, or delineating how the C.I.A. must treat detainees.

The speech and debate clause of the Constitution shields senators and representatives from civil and criminal liability in the performance of their legislative duties. It would have protected those members if they had decided to march down to the House or Senate floor and denounce the Bush administration for engaging in torture, though that approach not only could have harmed C.I.A. operations, but also surely would have been political suicide.

From Rove's May 14 Wall Street Journal column:

Someone important appears not to be telling the truth about her knowledge of the CIA's use of enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs). That someone is Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. The political persecution of Bush administration officials she has been pushing may now ensnare her.

Here's what we know. On Sept. 4, 2002, less than a year after 9/11, the CIA briefed Rep. Porter Goss, then House Intelligence Committee chairman, and Mrs. Pelosi, then the committee's ranking Democrat, on EITs including waterboarding. They were the first members of Congress to be informed.

In December 2007, Mrs. Pelosi admitted that she attended the briefing, but she wouldn't comment for the record about precisely what she was told. At the time the Washington Post spoke with a "congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter" and summarized that person's comments this way: "The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time."

[...]

If Mrs. Pelosi considers the enhanced interrogation techniques to be torture, didn't she have a responsibility to complain at the time, introduce legislation to end the practices, or attempt to deny funding for the CIA's use of them? If she knew what was going on and did nothing, does that make her an accessory to a crime of torture, as many Democrats are calling enhanced interrogation?

Senate Judiciary Chairman Pat Leahy wants an independent investigation of Bush administration officials. House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers feels the Justice Department should investigate and prosecute anyone who violated laws against committing torture. Are these and other similarly minded Democrats willing to have Mrs. Pelosi thrown into their stew of torture conspirators as an accomplice?

It is clear that after the 9/11 attacks Mrs. Pelosi was briefed on enhanced interrogation techniques and the valuable information they produced. She not only agreed with what was being done, she apparently pressed the CIA to do more.

But when political winds shifted, Mrs. Pelosi seems to have decided to use enhanced interrogation as an issue to attack Republicans. It is disgraceful that Democrats who discovered their outrage years after the fact are now braying for disbarment of the government lawyers who justified EITs and the prosecution of Bush administration officials who authorized them. Mrs. Pelosi is hip-deep in dangerous waters, and they are rapidly rising.

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    • Author by jamesB (May 14, 2009 5:55 pm ET)
        4
      ridiculous. I love it, mmfa hauls out a legal dictionary of "accomplice" as their only defense of Pelosi. What about the more popular merriam webster definition " one associated with another especially in wrongdoing".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 5:56 pm ET)
        1  
        Words have meanings. Stop whining when you don't agree with the legal definitions, Tommy.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by HughG (May 15, 2009 7:45 pm ET)
        1  
        Hey, Jimmie B! What's shaking!

        Hey, didja see the part where it says that if she knew about it, she wouldn't have been able to stop or prevent it?

        Pretty interesting, don'tcha think?
        Report Abuse
    • Author by friedbergboy1422 (May 14, 2009 6:48 pm ET)
      5  
      Rove,

      You can't have it both ways. If Pelosi knew, as you claim, and you are defending the EITs, what does she have to worry about? If you're wrong and its torture, yes, Pelosi will be in trouble, but its time to march your old bosses to the Hague.

      So, why threaten Pelosi if your old bosses will be in more trouble than she will? Which way do you want to have it, Karl?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by carlileb5935 (May 14, 2009 10:58 pm ET)
        3  
        He sounds like Dale Gribble in his "aha!" moments. Like, we got you now!--- I mean, oops...
        Report Abuse
      • Author by pointofview (May 14, 2009 11:07 pm ET)
          6
        Fried

        Fair enough, but Pelosi is trying to have it both ways as well. Either she did know, or she did not. If she did, she has some explaining to do. She has offered so many different versions of what she knew and when she knew it, how can anyone take her serious on this issue?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (May 15, 2009 4:40 am ET)
          4  
          It is a moot point. Pelosi was in no position to make exectutive policy or stop it. As it has been pointed out before, she could have written a strongly worded letter. We all know how effective that was in dealing with the Bush Administration. Personally, I think the most effective form of protest at the time would be to sneak off a fart in the oval office. At least then, maybe the administration would have taken notice even if only for a few seconds.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by friedbergboy1422 (May 15, 2009 9:51 am ET)
          4  
          Panetta's version leads me to think she didn't know, but if she did, yes she does have some explaining to do, but, she was in no position to stop anything, was she?

          Rove's duplicity should be concerning for the old administration, is he admitting to war crimes?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 15, 2009 9:59 am ET)
          4  
          What's you point,point?

          If Pelosi is "guilty" fine... But whatever punnishment you would expect for her "knowing" what was done, you then have have to expect that much more for those that DID it: Cheney, Yoo, Bush, CIA, DoJ, etc... You can;t balme her for "knowing" abnout a crime without admitting that there WAS in fact a CRIME. And FAR more Republican heads will role over this than Demoncratic ones. You must know this.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pointofview (May 15, 2009 1:46 pm ET)
              1
            I agree with what you said. I still dont feel we did anything wrong. As far as Pelosi, I simply think she is being dishonest. While there would be blame for her if this all turns out to be true, there could and will be much more for others.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Conchobhar (May 15, 2009 3:30 pm ET)
              1  
              POV:
              You "don't believe we did anything wrong." Is that because you accept the previous administrtion's rebranding of torture, or you accept the Yoo contention that the President is above the law?
              Report Abuse
            • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 15, 2009 4:29 pm ET)
              1  
              If "you did nothing wrong" then what is she lying about not knowing?

              I she says "I didn't know about torture" then it can't be a LIE unles you DID ACTUALLY TORTURE (which IS wrong, I really shouldn't have to explain that part to an educate dadult though.)

              So... if YOU did nothing wrong, then she CAN'T be lying about NOT KNWOING what you did. If she IS LYING the you DID BREAK THE LAW. It's also possible that she's being honest, but if you don't buy THAT then YOUR LOT IS FAR MORE GUILTY.

              You know what? Screw it. I'm going home and having a few beers. Maybe conserva-logic makes at least the slightest sense if you're hammered.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 5:59 pm ET)
                 
              I still don't feel we did anything wrong
              Then what, precisely, is Pelosi an "accomplice" to? Legal acts don't have "accomplices," they have "participants."
              Report Abuse
      • Author by LuvLuLu (May 15, 2009 12:19 am ET)
        3  
        He is 'threatening' Pelosi because they are going to say that since she didn't object, that just proves that it wasn't torture.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 15, 2009 10:08 am ET)
          3  
          Interesting point, and I think you're right, but: no one seems to buy it.

          The Right want her head so bad that they don't even recognize this nuance (big surprise, huh?) nor the trap they're in if they actually go after her (which all the rank-n-file seem to ACTUALLY want to do!)

          Meanwhile her supporters (1) give her the benifit of the doubbt, (2) recognize that she was in no position to stoip in anyway, and (3)(worst case) are willing to let her answer for her "crimes" if it means that the REAL criminals will be punnished as well.

          By taking this track the Republicans are almost guarenteeing their own screwing. (And with that, I'm surprised John Boehner isn't the one behind this self-defeating strategy!)
          Report Abuse
      • Author by egb (May 15, 2009 1:38 am ET)
          5
        It's no longer about whether she knew about it, it about whether she is lying or not. Did she testify in congress that she was not told? She might be thrown in the slammer -- Ooops, this is all political and the Dem's go free as long as they hold the reins of power.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (May 15, 2009 4:42 am ET)
          3  
          The CIA has not provided any documentatation from the time to suggest Pelosi is lying. I have no reason to doubt what she says.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Brian in FL (May 15, 2009 10:34 am ET)
          2  
          What a joke. I can't believe anybody is foolish enough to fall for this attempt to turn this into an issue about what Pelosi did or did not know.

          She did not testify before Congress about anything. She can't be charged with anything. Thrown in the slammer???? Are you joking???
          Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (May 15, 2009 10:57 am ET)
          3  
          You might read a bit before you post egb. If Pelosi is complicent fine. Prosecute her and maybe the folks who initiated produced and managed the torture enthusiasm. Ya think Karl might be one of them?
          Had she, after the upfront, consis briefing she recieved as a member of the minority party, protested by immolating herself on the WH steps would the reaction been other than, good riddense, bad rubish? Question the annoited administration of St Shrub in that age?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by mfinn7314 (May 15, 2009 7:55 am ET)
        4  
        Oh but he can have it both ways. You talk one way in one instance and another way in another instance. And you avoid engaging with anyone who will call you out on it. It works well when honesty and integrity are not a concern.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by worrierking (May 14, 2009 6:49 pm ET)
      4  
      That works for me.

      Maybe the "accomplice" will roll over on the two people ahead of her in the order of succession.

      Isn't this an admission by Bush's Senior Advisor to the President that the administration approved torture?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by peebs755 (May 14, 2009 7:05 pm ET)
        1  
        It certainly sounds like it.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Conchobhar (May 15, 2009 3:34 pm ET)
             
          No, itdoesn't. The Rovester was very careful in his logic and choice of words, basically, "if....then." He never owned up the the fact that torture was committed.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 6:02 pm ET)
               
            Then, by his own logic, it is impossible for Pelosi to be an "accomplice."
            Report Abuse
    • Author by lede39571545 (May 14, 2009 8:13 pm ET)
      2  
      My, my, Rove, be careful, you are selling out your former boss and his administration. Perhaps you, Bush and Cheney should all walk to the DOJ with a white flag and your hands-up-over your heads. True, if Pelosi, et al knew, they have some responsibility, but your troika ordered it and may ultimately be held accountable.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by jbraskin4786 (May 14, 2009 9:23 pm ET)
         
      It takes one to know one, I guess...
      Report Abuse
    • Author by my4cents (May 14, 2009 9:48 pm ET)
      4  
      The 'drive by' media has muddied the water again.

      There are 2 issues to be discussed separately here, with no regard to the elected people.

      Is water boarding torture or EIT? Resolve that first and stop saying 'what some say is torture' whenever you report on water boarding.

      Did torture (or EIT) save lives? If so how many and how? Lay it out. No selective secrecy.

      Whether Pelosi was 'informed', 'briefed', 'knew' is immaterial because at the time it was all classified.

      Personally, given his record, I do not believe anything coming out of Cheney.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by my4cents (May 14, 2009 9:56 pm ET)
        3  
        And yeah, compel Rove to testify, under oath, with everything he utters recorded, on his role in outing Plame, hiring career attorneys and his involvement in the ouster of some Southern Democratic Governor.

        It is also revealing that a search on google for 'karl rove allegations' shows foxnews as the first hit.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by IowaDem (May 15, 2009 9:45 am ET)
        2  
        Why would it matter if it "saved lives" or not? That really adds nothing to the argument. Besides the obvious logical problem of trying to prove you made something NOT happen, there is no justification for breaking the law in this instance. It is quite clear that torture for any reason, in any circumstance, against any enemy is illegal. And that doesn't even address the moral and ethical issues at all.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Conchobhar (May 15, 2009 3:44 pm ET)
        1  
        One of your questions is not a question in fact. Waterboarding is torture, and has been recognized as such since it was first (as far as we know) used by the Spanish Inquisition, to extract false confessions. The North Koreans used it for the same purpose. It is legally recognized as torture by the Geneva Convention and the 1996 Convention Against Torture, both of which are, for those who respect the Constitution, the law of the land,having been duly ratified by Congress.

        I can't believe people get sucked into this discussion as if it were undecided.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (May 16, 2009 9:35 am ET)
             
          You've hit on the rights favorite tactic. Their attempts to convince everyone that there are two sides to every story. To them nothing is settled.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by papajohn (May 14, 2009 10:37 pm ET)
      1 2
      Her press conference today was a mistake. All it did was to allow the Republican tools that are the Washington Press Corp to hammer her with Republican talking points and provide footage to edit to portray the opposite of what she said. She asked for an Independent Truth Commission and they edit that out claiming she would be afraid of a Truth Commission.

      This isn't about "ratings", it is about large corporations controlling the propaganda in the most misinformed nation in the English speaking world and I see little hope of it ever changing. The Democrats will never get rid of the filibuster rule in the Senate, and they will constantly try to stay one step ahead of the media thinking that if they somehow tread lightly they won't be as rough on them. That's a complete misunderstanding of what those Republican tools are about.

      Americans learn the same way Pavlov's dogs learned.......by repetition, not by intellect.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by fawltylogic (May 15, 2009 2:38 am ET)
      4  
      Huh? How can she be an accomplice to a crime that according to Rove hasn't even been committed?

      This just goes to show that not even these psychopaths believe their own lies about their torture methods. That's good I guess. More evidence in the trials.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 6:04 pm ET)
           
        Once again, your logic is not "fawlty" at all.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by open_mind (May 15, 2009 4:49 am ET)
      3  
      It is interesting that Republicans claim Pelosi is an "accomplice" and Hoekstra has even gone so far as to say Pelosi “[c]learly, [] was involved in policy formulation.” Just for allegedly hearing about the policy...And yet, the Bush Administration OLC just gave "bad legal advice" and shouldn't be punished at all. How odd is that? Seriously?

      If anything the Bush Administration people who actively formed the policy are perpetrators and accomplices. But then maybe I'm just crazy.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by mfinn7314 (May 15, 2009 7:53 am ET)
      4  
      Of course we all know how sincere Rove is. Rove, Hannity, and the rest are doing their best to turn this into a referendum on Pelosi. Misdirection - no doubt a political tactic of which Rove is an expert. And conservatives/Repubs will joyfully jump on the bandwagon for the chance to heap criticism on one of their villians however distorted the charges are.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by jmmartin3402 (May 15, 2009 9:10 am ET)
      3  
      Herr Karlheinz ought to know. By use of the term "accomplice," he is presuming that a crime or crimes were committed. Sheeesh!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by terrapin53 (May 15, 2009 9:21 am ET)
      4  
      If Pelosi is found to have broken the law she should be put on trail along with Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, and anyone else involved. That's a no brainer, but did she break any law? Had she gone public, she would have broken thelaw by revealing classified information. She was in the minority so ending any funding was impossible for her to do. Introducing any legislation being more specific on what constitutes torture would have been similar to revealing classified info, and would have noever gotteny anywhere with a republicna congress and administration. Bottome line is she had no power to do squat, but shut up and listen and write "secret" letters complaining. And yea, I am smart enough to know this is just a conservative ploy trying to put the spotlight on Nancy and off of Bush. that ain't gonna work in the long run.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by jodyroy (May 15, 2009 9:39 am ET)
      3  
      This is just Rove again trying to get everyone to look the other way while he continues to cover up his handprints on the laws that he broke and the Constitution he violated.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by newzhound (May 15, 2009 10:10 am ET)
      3  
      The former members of the Bush Administration - and their water carriers such as Ole BlunderRush and Sheer Insannity - are using the "Enron Defense."

      Put out large amounts of false and otherwise misleading information. Let events take their inevitable course. Then say "Everyone knew! Everyone said..."

      Waterboarding is torture. That's a settled matter of US and International law. It's "black letter" law. Lawyers who opined that it is ok should be help accountable for their conduct. Do the right wingnutz suggest professionals have no professional accountability? In my personal opinion this is obvious malpractice. Should we just file a claim against their E&O carriers?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by shaggles (May 15, 2009 12:35 pm ET)
      3  
      "Are these and other similarly minded Democrats willing to have Mrs. Pelosi thrown into their stew of torture conspirators as an accomplice?"

      That's what this is all about obviously. Trying to scare the Dems away from an investigation. I doubt that Pelosi could be called an accomplice. Rove on the other hand could.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 6:07 pm ET)
        1  
        Rove is not only an accomplice, but a co-conspirator.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by ewl94232 (May 15, 2009 1:58 pm ET)
        2
      The essential premise of this story is without merit.

      Pelosi was a member of an oversight committee. She had the option to submit legislation to ban the practice. She could also have pushed for a cut-off of funding if the practice wasn't dropped. Neither she nor her peers on the committee did either. congress is a co-equal branch of government. As one of the persons in authority in the House, her authority and responsibility are also co-equal. Her responsibility was to know. If she can show that she didn't know, then she is also showing that she wasn't doing her job and was unfit for the responsibilities of that position.

      It's interesting how Democrats that were "going after" the Bush Admin. but now find that their own leaders share any guilt that is to be punished, find the Republicans so dumb for "going after Pelosi, (and don't forget the other Democrats), though punishing her will mean that our guys get punished to. Yeah! We sure are dumb! Not like you smart Democrats!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by twseattle (May 15, 2009 3:50 pm ET)
        1  
        There is every reason to believe Pelosi. If you go back to 2002, it's easy to find the stories about how the intelligence committees had to force the Bush administration to even provide these briefings. I find it difficult to believe that all the truth came out at this time of peak paranoia. It is easy to believe that Bush's brain foresaw exactly this situation and was manipulating the briefings even then so there could be a way to implement someone not careful enough to shut up.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by BoboSoetoro (May 15, 2009 4:34 pm ET)
            2
          The U.S. should NEVER resort to using a fuzzy caterpillar or wet bathrag on Al-Qaeda terrorists who merely want to nuke 6-10 big, blue cities full of urban liberals.

          If the choice is between "American-Hiroshima" and the extermination of 30+ million urban liberals VS. using a fuzzy caterpillar on a Jihadi, then those 30+ million urban liberals will just have to be sacrificed.

          America will survive without places like San Francisco, Los Angeles and NYC. We must NOT compromise our principles.




          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 6:10 pm ET)
            1  
            Congratulations, Bobo of the sore toes. You just gave birth to an entire straw city, population in the thousands.

            Are your toes sore because you constantly shoot yourself in the foot?
            Report Abuse
        • Author by ewl94232 (May 15, 2009 7:00 pm ET)
             
          Is that the same Bush that is a moron who can't even speak English and spends all day playing video games?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 10:06 pm ET)
               
            Yes. That's why Rove and Cheney are the ones who did the work. Dubya couldn't fart and chew gum at the same time, to quote LBJ.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by fantagor (May 15, 2009 6:59 pm ET)
      1  
      They're still taking two sides of the same story.

      When Rove and his cohorts talk about water boarding in the context of Bush, it's perfectly legal.

      When they talk about the SAME THING in the context of Pelosi, it's suddenly torture.

      Pick a side, apologists. Either side with your boss or side with the law. You don't get to do both.

      Randy
      Report Abuse
      • Author by ewl94232 (May 15, 2009 7:02 pm ET)
          1
        Turn-about is fair play.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (May 15, 2009 8:10 pm ET)
            1
          OOh, wettly played sir, madam, or other.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 15, 2009 10:07 pm ET)
             
          In your case, turnabout is making you dizzy.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (May 16, 2009 3:09 pm ET)
             
          Exactly what we all knew. You don't care what is true or isn't true. What is legal or is illegal. You don't care whether or not our country sacrificed its principles in anyway. You only care about your "team" getting the upper hand on the other "team". Nice to hear you admit it at least. Don't you see what this Limbaugh mentality (along with Beck and O'Reilly and Hannity et. al.) have done to your thinking? Your country and its political discourse deserve better.
          Report Abuse

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