Fox still peddling debunked cap-and-trade cost figure
SUMMARY: Fox News advanced the debunked conservative claim that Democrats' cap-and-trade plan will cost American families $3,100 per year.
On the June 26 edition of Fox & Friends, Fox News advanced the conservative claim that Democrats' cap-and-trade plan will cost American families $3,100 per year, a figure based on congressional Republicans' distortion of a 2007 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) study that has been discredited by one of the study's authors. Co-host Gretchen Carlson said that "the goal of the bill is to reduce emissions by 2020, but some say it's just another way to get more money from taxpayers without them realizing it," and an on-screen graphic read, "Cold to the climate bill: Some say could cost $3,100 per household." Later, libertarian author Wayne Allyn Root -- who Carlson hosted to discuss the bill along with conservative columnist Ann Coulter and Rock the Vote former president Jehmu Greene -- said the plan is "the biggest tax increase in history" and that the "people in control now are not even liberal, they are socialist." During the segment, no one mentioned that the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that in 2020, the bill would have an average cost of $175 per household per year -- a fact co-host Steve Doocy mentioned in a segment on the bill about an hour later.

According to a May 28 article on FactCheck.org, "Leading Republicans are claiming that President Obama's proposal to curb greenhouse gas emissions would cost households as much as $3,100 per year. The Republican National Committee calls it a 'massive national energy tax.' But the $3,100 figure is a misrepresentation of both Obama's proposal and the study from which the number is derived."
From the article:
Obama himself once said energy costs would "skyrocket" under his plan, but the GOP's partisan claim of a $3,100 per household cost increase is far higher than figures produced by other studies. The Environmental Protection Agency estimates the average cost per household to be between $98 and $140 per year, based on the Democratic cap-and-trade bill working its way through the House. Even the conservative, pro-Republican Heritage Foundation figures the average family would see its energy bill increase by $1,500 a year, less than half what the GOP claims. A Congressional Budget Office expert recently estimated the cost per household at an average of $1,600 a year, but that figure doesn't account for energy rebates Obama has proposed giving to consumers. If the government did use revenue from cap and trade "to pay an equal lump-sum rebate to every household," the CBO expert said, "lower-income households could be better off."
[...]
How do Republicans figure American households will be out $3,100? The figure is based in part on a 2007 study by the MIT Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change. The study estimated that a cap-and-trade market for 2015 would be worth $366 billion in revenue. Republicans, figuring that that amount would be passed from the energy companies to consumers, calculated the average cost per household by dividing $366 billion by 117 million households (a population of 300 million divided into households of 2.56 persons) to get $3,128, or roughly $3,100.
However, one of the authors of the MIT study disputes that figure.
In a letter sent to House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) on April 1, John Reilly, associate director for research at the MIT Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change, said that the study he coauthored had "been misrepresented in recent press releases distributed by the National Republican Congressional Committee." He said the GOP's calculation fails to account for Obama's stated intent to provide rebates to consumers to cushion the effect of increased prices: "[M]any of the proposals currently being considered by Congress and as proposed by the Administration have been designed to offset the energy cost impacts on middle and lower income households and so it is simplistic and misleading to only look at the impact on energy prices of these proposals as a measure of their impact on the average household."
Reilly at first estimated the average annual cost of implementing a cap-and-trade program to each household to be about $340, but he later wrote a follow-up letter to Boehner on April 14 correcting what he said was an error in his calculations and increasing his estimate to about $800. He said his corrected estimate "includes the direct effects of higher energy prices, the cost of measures to reduce energy use, the higher price of goods that are produced using energy, and impacts on wages and returns on capital."
Nevertheless, as Media Matters for America has repeatedly noted, numerous cable news programs and conservatives in the media have seized on the number, reporting it as fact even after it was discredited.
In a later segment, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) said that "opponents of the bill are using wildly inflated figures which are not supported by the facts," after Doocy said that "critics of this say that it's going to cost the average American family $3,000 a year, and others have said -- the CBO -- the Congressional Budget Office -- said maybe $175 a year. What is the answer, according to your calculations?" Hoyer said, "EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] and CBO, which is the independent fiscal analyst that serves the Congress and indeed the government, indicates that it's going to be about maybe 140 to 175 dollars per year, and that means about the cost of a postage stamp per day."
Indeed, CBO estimated in a June 19 analysis of the American Clean Energy and Security Act (H.R. 2454) -- a cap-and-trade bill recently passed out of the House energy committee -- that the net impact to households from the bill in 2020 would range between a benefit of $40 per year and a cost of $340 per year, with an average cost of $175 per year. CBO stated that its analysis "focuses on the effect of the legislation in the year 2020, a point at which the cap would have been in effect for eight years (giving the economy time to adjust) and at which the allocation of allowances would be representative of the situation prior to the phase-down of free allowances." The EPA estimated in a June 23 analysis of the bill that the average cost to households averaged over the years 2010 to 2050 will be between $80 and $111.
From the June 26 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:
CARLSON: Welcome back, everyone. Big day on Capitol Hill today. Why? Because the House is set to vote on the cap-and-trade bill, also known as the climate change bill. But, do you care?
Well, you should, because the goal of the bill is to reduce emissions by 2020, but some say it's just another way to get more money from taxpayers without them realizing it. So, in the Pundit Pit today, Jehmu Greene, the former president of Rock the Vote; Wayne Allyn Root, libertarian vice presidential candidate in 2008 and author of Conscience of a Libertarian, due out July 20th; and Ann Coulter, columnist and author. Good to have all three of you this morning.
All right, Ann, let me start with you on this whole cap-and-trade situation. It looks like it will pass the House. What will happen in the Senate, and why did Al Gore not show up yesterday to talk about it?
COULTER: He was too busy turning out the lights in his 8,000-square-foot home or flying private some place. I mean, boy, with hypocrisy in the air right now, let's just talk about the real hypocrites, these global warming people telling us the world is coming to an end, when really not changing their lifestyles at all with the private planes.
I mean, it's one thing to be a fallible person. I didn't think any of these politicians who end up in affairs would say, "But I don't really believe the Bible." No, they do. They fall. It's not like Al Gore just, oh, he slipped one time and used a private plane. But no, it is for the little people, and it's not going to be that much of a hidden tax.
People are going to notice pretty quickly when their heating bills go up, especially, by the way -- I mean, it's noticeable that it hits states like Missouri and Wyoming, red states the most where basically there will be no coal. You're going to have coal workers out of business. Heating oil costs are supposed to -- or energy costs to a home are supposed to go up, double within five to 10 years -- we're in the middle of a recession.
CARLSON: Jehmu, I have got to get you in here.
GREENE: This is absolutely not about Al Gore turning off lights, this is a jobs bill. This is about holding the polluters accountable, and about providing new green jobs that are absolutely necessary.
COULTER: Those don't work.
GREENE: People will pay very close attention and recognize right away when these new jobs come into their communities, and that's what President Obama and that's what Democrats in the White House --
CARLSON: But what about the taxes, Jehmu? Because President Obama did promise during the campaign that he was not going to raise taxes on people who earn under -- couples who earn under $200,000 a year. And by all accounts, everyone has electricity, so they will be paying taxes.
GREENE: Well, it's really important that we attack global warming on a very concerted front, and I think that as we --
CARLSON: So it would go against his campaign promise.
GREENE: I don't necessarily think it's going against his campaign promise, because his campaign promise was to increase new green jobs, it was to hold the polluters accountable. And he is doing that with this bill, and we'll be able to get the votes through the Senate.
CARLSON: Wayne?
ROOT: Let me speak as a small businessman. You know, I expect to be the Ross Perot of 2012. I expect to be the libertarian presidential nominee. And I'm a small businessman. And every small businessman I know is going out of business or hanging on with their fingernails by using their own money to keep their business alive.
We can't afford this tax increase. I don't know a single businessman -- I don't know a single person who can afford to have their electric rates doubled or tripled. But worse, instead of cap and trade, they should just call it destroy trade, because the United States has such a competitive disadvantage.
India and China are not going to pass this bill. So their industries have no problem, while we are going to put industry out of business. It's a disaster in what I think is not a recession but a depression, and it's crazy to pass the biggest tax increase in history in the middle of a depression. These people in control now are not even liberal, they are socialist. There's no question about it.
CARLSON: OK, I gotta -- we'll have to see what the Senate does, because it looks like it's going to pass the House. I gotta move on really quickly to Michelle Obama, because she got rid of her chief of staff, and it appears like she wants her role to change.
[...]
BRIAN KILMEADE (co-host): The climate change bill hits the House floor, and it's happening today. And if it goes through, this green initiative will cost you big bucks, perhaps. So is now the time to be increasing taxes?
DOOCY: Let's talk to House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer from the great state of Maryland, who joins us live from Capitol Hill. Good morning to you, sir.
HOYER: Good morning. Good to be with you.
DOOCY: OK, it's great to have you as well. There are so many numbers floating around regarding the whole cap-and-trade idea. I read one thing -- critics of this say that it's going to cost the average American family $3,000 a year, and others have said --
HOYER: Well, that's --
DOOCY: -- the CBO -- the Congressional Budget Office -- said maybe $175 a year. What is the answer, according to your calculations? How much it's going to cost us if it does pass?
HOYER: Well, EPA and CBO, which is the independent fiscal analyst that serves the Congress and indeed the government, indicates that it's going to be about maybe 140 to 175 dollars per year, and that means about the cost of a postage stamp per day.
The fact of the matter is, though, that there's no tax in this bill. This is an attempt through the free market system to address the global warming issue, to make us energy independent, and to focus on innovation and the development of renewable energy sources which will make us energy independent in the future, which is critical for our national security.
So, I think the opponents of the bill are using wildly inflated figures which are not supported by the facts. It will obviously have some cost to invest, but it will also, we think, spur business, create jobs and a green economy.
CARLSON: But do you believe this one particular number -- because the new rules will eventually cost the average household an extra $175 a year. Do you believe that number to be correct?
HOYER: I think it's in the ballpark, yes. That's, as I said, the CBO number -- EPA agrees with that number -- and, if so, I think that's pretty close to the projected possible cost of this bill. But it also will spur, I think, the growth in our economy, the creation of green jobs, and hopefully selling clean energy technology to the rest of the world.
Because, obviously, what the United States does, no matter how effective we are in cleaning our environment, we know that if China and India and other growing industrial nations -- huge industrial nations in the world keep polluting, that our efforts alone will not do the trick. So, it has to be a global effort.













Are Republicans just plain stupid or are they the biggest bunch of whinners in the history of the world? I'll vote for both.
He was told that the cost estimates he's been quoting are off by a factor of ten, and then actually about half of that.
He doesn't dispute that, but then goes on to say that it's a huge tax increase.
It's about 50 cents a day, or $15 a month. All but the most stringent budgets won't even notice that, and even those can typically handle that cost. And we need to help the environment.
First of all, if you don't understand that the expansion of Government has caused the demise of every country since the beginning of time.
Second, this President and Democratic majority ruled Congress has truly fooled you into falling for the same things that caused the following of every bad Pied Piper that's ever been, but that's what happens when people get lazy, sorry, Godless and want somebody to make decisions for them. God help us.
You just have to BREATH in order to believe their lies.
Being intellectually lazy doesn't earn you a gold star.
Now that is the average. What about those who commute? What happens to their gas prices? What about those who live in the North and Midwest who use coal to create the electricity? What happens to their electric bills during the winter?
Nearly everything goes up, since higher energy costs raise production costs. If you look at the total cost of Waxman-Markey, it works out to an average of $2,979 annually from 2012-2035 for a household of four. By 2035 alone, the total cost is over $4,600.
The Heritage Foundation estimates job losses averaging 1,145,000 at any given time from 2012-2035.
Some of the lost jobs will be destroyed entirely, while others will be outsourced to nations like China and India that have repeatedly stated that they'll never hamper their own economic growth with energy-cost boosting global warming measures like Waxman-Markey.
Overall, Waxman-Markey reduces gross domestic product by an average of $393 billion annually between 2012 and 2035, and cumulatively by $9.4 trillion. In other words, the nation will be $9.4 trillion poorer with Waxman-Markey than without it.
I've taken these facts from Testimony by Ben Lieberman to the Senate Republican Conference.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/tst062609a.cfm
I'd trust them over the numbers coming from the CBO that are virtually meaningless because they leave out so many criteria, like start up costs and pesky items like the cost to States and costs later in the program that start multiplying the actual costs to the taxpayers.
Citing an average cost is about as accurate as saying the oceans will rise by 20 ft. if due to man made global warming.
(see above for link)
ps. The link is below rather than above. Sorry for the confusion.
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/06/24/enron-accounting-cbo-epa-cooked-the-books-on-cost-estimates-for-waxman-markey-energy-tax/
You're the one making affirmative statements. You should be able to show that your figures are true. I've got good reason, based on experience, to believe that figures produced by the Heritage Foundation are cherry-picked, based on unreasonable assumptions and deliberately skewed to favor their desired conclusions.
Are you going to dispute the following?
Analysis by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) shows that a 60 percent reduction in CO2 emissions by 2050 will reduce CO2 concentrations by only 25 ppm in 2095. This reduction would affect world temperatures by 0.1 to 0.2 degrees C. In other words it makes virtually no difference.
http://www.heritage.org/cda/upload/KreutzerTestimonyTrade.pdf
He makes the case that in several ways the CBO numbers are rather conservative and that the costs could easily run lower. What makes your partisan article better than my partisan article? Why couldn't I just as easily accuse you of burying your head in the sand?
The article states that ten different scenarios were analyzed. Is it any wonder that Kreutzer cherry-picked the single most pessimistic one to make his point? And there are even caveats to that one that he omitted.
If you can find any unbiased source on this or any other topic please let the rest of us know.
Yes it is. In case you missed it I haven't quoted any sources for any numbers. You can insist that your own side's numbers are right until the earth cools but no one really knows until the project starts and continues on for some time. And when all the estimates are proved wrong in a few years what are you going to do about it? Absolutely nothing. So go prattle on about whose numbers are more accurate than the others - they are still just making their best guess...
Then what's this if not making assertions about numbers:
by solon (June 26, 2009 4:22 pm ET)
The Heritage foundation and once again we get a biased source. Why not just link to the Limborg homepage and get it over with?
You are at least taking sides as to what sources are valid. But neither you, Heritage, EPA, CBO nor anyone else at this point in time can say with any degree of certainty that their numbers are anything other than a projection or estimate based on "x" assumptions.
It is IDIOTIC to pretend that unbiased sources do not exist.
I never said they did or did not exist. I merely asked you to name one.
I can go with my track record too.
Great - you have a track record...duly noted.
I remember this same kind of argument from cons when I was telling them we weren't going to find large stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq. I was told over and over by brainwashed minions like YOU that I was a fool. I was right.
We can at least agree on one point. I never thought there were WMDs in Iraq either. If you can find any posting I made that states otherwise I'll give you $100.00. And do you really think calling people names makes your argument any more valid?
And when YOU are wrong, which is just as likely what are YOU going to do about it? Absolutely nothing. So go peddle your snide pompous idiocy to someone who cares.
In this case, how would I be wrong about if I am not making any predictions or positing support about numbers that are merely someone else's best guess, worst guess or otherwise? I do not assume nor have I suggested I will do anything about it either. And if it makes you feel better to call other posters idiots, fools, brainwashed minions and what have you, then knock yourself out. Otherwise try to be nice - because you can.
If you're acting like an idiot or a troll, then you should not complain when someone calls you out on that behavior.
There are sources that are clearly biased and have an agenda - like the Heritage Foundation. There are other sources that are non-partisan, like the CBO. Trying to make a point by saying that a biased source like Heritage has published certain findings is not a fair resource to use. The CBO is a fair resource for anyone to use.
Anyone with half a brain can understand the difference here. So I have to ask if you are so ignorant that you don't understand this, or so much of a troll that, despite the fact that you DO understand this, you're still carrying on this debate? Are you disingenous or ignorant?
I vote for both. Somehow you felt the need to defend yourself from the WMD charge, when he never accused you of it. He said 'people like you'. He did't say "YOU". It was an example, but it went right over your head apparently. But then you show your troll nature in that same reply, in suggesting that he's not within the bounds of decency by calling a spade a spade when talking about brainwashed minions who argued with him about WMD's. You're a troll who is too ignorant to understand much and that which you do understand is distorted by your political philosophy to a dangerous degree. Both.
Bias is in the eye of the beholder. If you think the CBO is an unbiased source, so be it. Solon thinks the NY Times is an unbiased source - that's Solon's opinion and nothing more. There are also blog sites that are biased as well - Town Hall, Free Republic, MMfA and others with posters who have their own biases as well. But what if the CBO's numbers in this case were higher than what Heritage were claiming? Would you still insist that the CBO was unbiased if their numbers didn't support your position? In other words, is the CBO your standard for any and all projections or just for this one?
Actually, no, it's not. Bias has nothing to do with who you are when one is talking about organizations that make projections. It has to do with who the source is.
If you think the CBO is an unbiased source, so be it.
Again, it has nothing to do with me. The CBO is a nonpartisan resource for Congress. It doesn't have an ideological basic upon which it makes projections. The Heritage Foundation does have that political bias.
But what if the CBO's numbers in this case were higher than what Heritage were claiming? Would you still insist that the CBO was unbiased if their numbers didn't support your position?
What are you prattling on about? I want the nonpartisan numbers, whatever they are. Only trolls like you would want to go with the source that provided the numbers you wanted. Fair-minded people like us want to go with the unbiased projections, whatever they are, and then make decisions based upon those nonpartisan numbers! It was the Bush Administration that built their case for war in Iraq by making the intelligence fixed around the policy, remember. We don't make decisions, then look for numbers that support our position. That would be troll-like behavior, and you're the troll, not us.
Oh, and it's not a matter of me "insisting that the CBO was unbiased." They are nonpartisan. That's a fact. I have the right, just as you do, to my own opinions, but not my own facts. I don't get to determine that the CBO is unbiased because it's my opinion that they're unbiased.
In other words, is the CBO your standard for any and all projections or just for this one?
The CBO is nonpartisan. That's a fact. When I want factual projections, they'd be a great resource.
Fine. We were both right. Both our track records can show that if it makes you feel better to talk about me PRATTLING ON fine but it doesnt add to YOUR argument either.
YOU can be wrong the same way you accused ME of being wrong. I didnt make any predictions either I just told AA his source was biased. You seem to think its FINE to talk about me PRATTLING but I ought to treat YOU with respect. That isnt how it works. YOU BE nice so will I. YOU get snarky and talk about me prattling look out for the mud going back at YOU. I never understood why you rightwingers think you ought to get away with treating liberals with contempt then snivelling like little girls that we treat you the same way. Clean up YOUR act if you want me to treat YOU with respect otherwise I will treat you the way you treat me.
What makes you think I'm a "rightwinger"?
The CBO is nonpartisan. The Heritage Foundation is not. AA's source was a partisan source. If one is trying to persuade another, one cannot use a biased source to do so. One has an obligation to use a neutral source.
What a tool you are.
See, fella, you have to earn credibility here. You can't say 'oh, I lost my meds', or imply that someone else is wrong for having assumed you're a rightwinger and expect to gain credibility here.
And you have lost all credibility with your commentary over the last couple of days. The issue here is the use of debunked projections by FoxNews and others. You tried to argue that no one knows what the actual numbers will turn out to be - an irrelevant conversation. You tried to argue that no one can claim that any source is unbiased - demonstrably not true. You tried to claim that we only chose to believe the CBO's numbers because they fit some preconceived notions we had about what the cost projections should be - more nonsense and unfair smears of us to boot.
You have not fooled anyone.
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/06/24/enron-accounting-cbo-epa-cooked-the-books-on-cost-estimates-for-waxman-markey-energy-tax/
ibid.
Do they think that we'll still be in a recession in a year and a half?
It's partly political in that, after having their butts handed to them in 2006 and 2008, many conservatives (and those who call themselves such) woke up and realized they were fiscally irresponsible for the last eight years. In my opinion, the only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans lately is that the Republicans taxed us at a slightly lower rate - both still spend way more than they take in.
As far as job losses go, it may be that with the passage of the bill, more jobs would be lost in the current energy sector (particularly in coal-fired plants) than would be gained in areas such as wind and solar power. The job losses now are tough to deal with, but potentially adding to it with this bill would make things worse. But again, no one really knows what's going to happen here, just like we don't know how long or how severe the recession will be.
Wasn't Ford Prefect from that part of the Galaxy?
Just making up scenarios that MIGHT happen is not having a real debate its discussing fantasies.
At least I was attempting to offer a plausible explanation to her very valid question.
If the potential (and unlikely) composite job losses aren't a concern with regard to this recession, since the recession will be over before then, they can't be trying to turn 'legit'.
This bill doesn't kick in until 2012. It's another right wing talking point from a guy who implied he wasn't a rightwinger (yeah, but we can't trust a thing you say, and never will again) to say that we need to be concerned about job losses because of where the economy is right now. Are you aware of what year it is? 2009. How far away is 2012? 2 1/2 years. So you think that we'll still be in a recession 30 months from now? Really?
Of course you don't, but you hope that the readers of this don't realize that the changes aren't immediate.
Just like the Republicans in Congress putting forth this same debunked argument about job losses hope that their listeners don't know that they're being disingenuous. Just like they hope that the voters don't remember that Obama never promised that all would be rosy and solved within 5 months of passing a stimulus bill. Back in January, the Republicans were trumpeting that much of the stimulus bill's money wouldn't get spent until 2010 and 2011, but now they're out there complaining that the economy's ills haven't been fixed yet. Somehow they knew 6 months ago that the economy wouldn't be fixed this soon, and now they've forgotten it?
It's your similar behavior that has you pegged as a rightwinger, HM. You're too stupid by half and yet you're smart enough to try to mislead your listeners just like the Republicans in Congress.
Agreed. It's how we tackle it that's causing all the ruckus.
The government has every right to intercede when industry won't police itself (and why would it?). There is no economic disincentive for corporations to pollute, so they will do so anytime it helps their bottom line.
Governments have procedures for allowing corporations to build things. It seems that governments at the federal and state level are just as concerned about revenues as the corporations, hence tax incentives and the like for building in a particular state. States and localities are competing for money in their own way so they are partly to blame.
It's the government's job to make them feel it in the bottom line when they disregard the health and well-being of the communities whose teet they are suckling.
It's the government's job to see to it that the public isn't put at risk because corporations and government are out to make money.
And funnily enough, that's what this posting by Media Matters is all about.
It's not a debate over how we tackle it that's causing the ruckus. We're fine with a debate on how to tackle it. But it should be a fair debate with unbiased sources to give us the facts we need to make decisions.
Agreed. But the House Democrats were not concerned with a fair debate in order to get the Waxman-Markey legislation passed Friday. It is another example of politics as usual and both sides play it way too much.
The debate is not over how to tackle this issue. You said it was.
The House Democrats were concerned with a fair debate. The problem is that the Republicans are not willing to have fair debates. There is no equivalency between the Democrats and the Republicans in terms of their willingness to cooperate with the majority when they are the minority and to work in a bipartisan manner when necessary. The two parties are worlds apart in reference to that, and the Dems look like angels and the Republicans look like devils by any fair examinations.
We've seen this in the last 4 years in Congress. As an example, Obama proposed a stimulus bill with almost half going towards tax cuts, despite the fact that tax cuts are not nearly as stimulative as other government spending is. But because the Republicans demanded that, he gave it to them. He didn't start out with a bill that had only government spending, then compromise. He started out being bipartisan with this. They still didn't vote for it. He tried, they didn't.
The relevant issue here in this posting by Media Matters is that the Republicans weren't willing to have a fair debate on this issue because they were misusing data to promote an unsubstainable and false cost projection. The majority gets to craft and pass the legislation they want to. That's the consequence of elections, after all. But there's plenty of evidence that if the Republicans would participate in a fair debate, the Dems would let them do so. It's the Republicans, and your false equivalency won't fly around here.
What I agreed with was your comment about having a fair debate.
The House Democrats were concerned with a fair debate.
So why was a bill, amended and submitted allegedly at 3:00 am Friday morning and over a thousand pages long have to be voted on in less than twenty-four hours? Who had time to read it? Is that your definition of "fair"?
This is another in a string of misleading comments from you, straight from the Republican on Congress talking points list. And you 'wondered' why you were being called a rightwinger.
This was not a new bill, nor a new concept. No Congressman reads hardly any of the bills, short or long. That's why they have staff to advise them. It's a group of people who rely upon each other and their staffs to proofread, etc. No ONE person in Congress does it all, nor are they expected to.
It's disingenuous to claim that there's something unfair about having a very long bill introduced like this. It's done all the time by whatever party is in power, and it's not offensive or unfair at all. The Republicans didn't vote against it because they hadn't had a chance to understand what was included in it.
I'd love to hear how it's unconstitutional. The actual legislation, that is, not your paranoid description of it.
"There are only two places where socialism will ever work - in Heaven, where it is not needed, and in Hell, where it is already in practice!" - Winston Churchill
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine
The rulers who are guilty of such encroachment exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are TYRANTS. The people who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them and are slaves. - (James Madison)
"It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
in the Constitution. All rights not granted remain in the hands of the states. The problem is never to show how it is UNconsitutional, but why it IS constitutional. Where in the
enumerated rights of the constitution can be found the right of our government to limit the production of CO2 by whatever means?
Only by fabricating extensions to the thinking and writing that created the constitution, can you explain where the right comes from, and then only to unquestioning children. It's simply not there.
The fact is that the Congress has broad powers of regulation. Any act of Congress must be shown to be in violation of the Constitution in order for it to be rendered invalid.
Your personal interpretation of Constitutionality is irrelevant. Various judicial bodies have ruled over and over on the power of Congress to regulate. Yours is a minority view, in conflict with judicial precedent and the Constitution itself.
Nothing in there about child labor, either. Got kids? Put them to work! If conservatives ruled, no one could stop you. And on and on...
Congress shall have the power tocollect taxes, duties, imposts and ecises to...and provide for the common defense AND GENERAL WELLFARE. Scientific evidence has convinced Congress that combatting global warming is essential to promoting the general wellfare. No one cares what YOU beleive. Since Congress believes it there can be NO DISPUTE it falls within their power to try to do what THEY think necessary to promote the genearl wellfare so there isnt any possible way to say its unconstitutional no matter WHAT Rush told you to beleive
Indeed, a conservative is born every minute, a sucker by any other name.
Randy
You're lying about what's written in the bill, first off. Secondly, there are more variables in this equation than just straight costs. There are many concessions, tax rebates, etc that will happen. So the final cost is has been estimated by the nonpartisan CBO to be $175 a year on average per household.
Why would you want to deny people that unbiased info, Karen?
That means that the $3100 has been debunked.
Did you even bother to read the article?
And how have the CBO numbers been proven?
The $3100 amount has been debunked by the very source that provided the underlying data that those on the right manipulated and distorted to come up with the $3100 figure!
It is a FACT that there is underlying data that was distorted and misused to come up with that $3100 figure. It is a FACT that the CBO has done the research necessary to come up with a non-partisan projection. That projection IS A FACT. It may or not end up being the final cost, but there IS A PROJECTION. That's a fact. That projection does not misuse the underlying data to promote a partisan, biased result. Republican Congressmen and others did misuse the underlying data to come up with a partisan, biased result.
It's that which I was talking about when I mentioned facts and opinions. The CBO used facts. The Republicans used their opinions to distort those very same facts.
No one has said that the CBO numbers will be the final numbers. Again, what I said was
"Well, it's been proven that the $3100 is not a realistic number, and the non-partisan CBO says $178.
That means that the $3100 has been debunked."
And, I am right. It's been proven that the $3100 number is a projection that is off by more than a factor of 10. The CBO projection has not been proven to be off by any amount.
The sky is light blue. Someone puts on very dark sunglasses, and says that the sky is dark blue, almost black. How many people need to debunk his false statement about the color of the sky - everyone who can see the sky, or is just one eyewitness enough to expose the true facts at issue?
It only takes one of the authors to provide factual evidence that debunks the false talking point. That's been done.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. This cost figure has been debunked by facts. It would not be possible for other study authors to 'dispute' these facts. Facts aren't disputable. They just "are". Facts have a liberal bias. That's your problem, but believe me, we'll let you guys on the right have access to any facts you want to use. We just won't let the media pretend any more that there are opposing facts in this discussion.
So, keep over-reaching democrats so that even the so-called independents can see how bad your policies are for this country.
Higher taxes = loss of liberty. This government won't be satisfied until it controls everything in everyone's lives.
OK, please tell the rest of us how any projections of future costs now qualify as facts.
It's a fact that Fox is cherrypicking and distorting all the projections.
Your assumption is that there are two sides, therefore both are misrepresenting the truth. Earlier you did this with:"You can insist that your own side's numbers are right until the earth cools but no one really knows until the project starts and continues on for some time." Your logic is that any scenario in which there are two different estimates must dictate that both sides have a motivation to be dishonest.
It's perfectly possible that one "side" is being objective and honest. A different estimate by someone else doesn't change that in the slightest, because the actions of one entity does not alter the reality behind the actions of another. For instance, imagine you're a project manager for building city storage facilities. You give your honest, best estimates for costs of building the facilities with different materials based on years of professional experience. A board member says that your steel estimate is way too low, and the wood estimate is too high. This guy's brother owns the biggest lumberyard in the area, and everyone knows it.
Would you really say that others should doubt both of you equally? Or would you point out that you don't have any reason to misrepresent the probable costs at hand? Obviously one set of numbers is more valid than the other. The same principle could easily apply to the CBO. Any motivation to lie on their part is simply not asserted by the fact that there is another "side" with a wildly different projection.
Based on what I read so far, there are three views. First is the view that essentially believes the numbers presented by the CBO and/or the EPA. Another view discounts the CBO numbers and is using sources such as the Heritage Foundation. My view is that neither of those views can be proven to be correct despite all the arguments on TV and this thread otherwise. My assumption is that the numbers are so far off from each other I doubt either the CBO numbers or the Heritage numbers are being totally honest in their basic assumptions, but that is my opinion and nothing more. Everyone else's posts (including yours) is based on opinion as well.
It's perfectly possible that one "side" is being objective and honest.
You're right, it's perfectly possible. How do you go about proving it?
Obviously one set of numbers is more valid than the other. The same principle could easily apply to the CBO.
How do you know that any set of numbers is more "valid" than another? Based on what assumptions and information? Though one side or the other may not be "lying", you have no idea what assumptions they are basing their results on. If the initial assumptions are faulty, then how do you expect the final result to be correct?
No one has said that the CBO's projections can be proven correct. It's irrelevant to this discussion whether or not they are proven correct. This whole discussion, remember, is about how the numbers FoxNews and others have used, the $3100 figure, has been debunked as not a valid projection.
We don't know what the final numbers will be. We don't HAVE to know the final number to know that the people who came up with the $3100 projection misused and distorted the original data collected to come to an untenable conclusion. The people who are experts in the field whose data was misused have told us that their data was distorted and the $3100 figure is off my more than a factor of 10 from any reasonable projection using their data.
But you're just being a troll. I've gladly reported your behavior to Media Matters.
You've been owned in this argument countless times. Your denial of reality here is no different from your refusal to admit the failure of your argument above. It doesn't hold water. Fox peddled a debunked cost. It was debunked by one of the men who produced the data that was misued to come up with that debunked cost estimate.
And I have seen posters who either cannot or will not give a specific answer to a specific question.
Fox peddled a debunked cost. It was debunked by one of the men who produced the data that was misued to come up with that debunked cost estimate.
Have I ever defended Fox or their use of "debunked" numbers in this thread?
That projection IS A FACT. It may or not end up being the final cost, but there IS A PROJECTION. That's a fact.
So, do you believe the CBO's numbers or not? More importantly, why or why not? This is the type of question you seem unable or unwilling to answer.
All you are is a troll, and as such, I will include in most of my posts what this thread is about, the use of debunked numbers.
Your trollish behavior here, trying to derail the thread from the topic, is done in lieu of actually acknowledging support of FoxNew's use of the debunked projections.
At what point or what specific post have I asked for anyone to provethat any particular group is biased, unbiased, neither or both? And at what point in this thread have I said that any particular group's numbers are more valid than another? You have missed the entire thrust of my argument. Calling me a moron, troll, or anything else does not advance any arguments you have made thus far (though it may make you feel better). :-)
No one has said that the CBO's projections can be proven correct. It's irrelevant to this discussion whether or not they are proven correct. This whole discussion, remember, is about how the numbers FoxNews and others have used, the $3100 figure, has been debunked as not a valid projection.
And my main point has been how can anyset of numbers be debunked at this point in time if the program hasn't even been implemented? It has taken you this long to say anything along the lines that anyone's numbers cannot be proven correct. If MMfA's line is that numbers from Heritage are wrong and debunked, how exactly does MMfA or anyone else know that? Just because another group has a different set of numbers that also cannot be proven to be true? With that line of logic you could come up with your own projections and "debunk" those from Heritage, the CBO, or anyone else.
the people who came up with the $3100 projection misused and distorted the original data collected to come to an untenable conclusion.
Neither you nor I have any idea as to what the staring point is with regards to basic numbers and underlying assumptions. I would take that as Point "A". Route "B" is the journey and there are also assumptions about many variables such as tax base, actual costs of power generation, usage and so forth that, again, none of us know about and that the CBO, EPA, Heritage and others can only guess at. Point "C" is the projected numbers almost everyone else is taking sides on as to which is correct. But if Point A and Route B are different for the various groups then it's only logical to assume that Point C is going to be different as well.
The people who are experts in the field whose data was misused have told us that their data was distorted and the $3100 figure is off my more than a factor of 10 from any reasonable projection using their data.
There are people who are "experts" in many fields yet they do not all agree on every single aspect of their profession. Economics is a case in point as well as climate change, and we have both of those elements involved here. All I have asked is for you to prove some of the statements you have made and thus far you have not, which gets to my main point that the numbers (no matter which ones you choose to believe) are not able to be proved or validated at this point - they are merely estimates.
So far, you have suggested that projected future costs should be treated as facts:
"That projection IS A FACT."
Actually a projection is just a projection. You continue to argue that something that may be in the future actually is.
You have also argued that A has been proven wrong because someone else said B is correct, therefore A is debunked:
"Well, it's been proven that the $3100 is not a realistic number, and the non-partisan CBO says $178. That means that the $3100 has been debunked."
Even when I asked you to prove that CBO's numbers were correct you failed to do so. You and many others just accept them as gospel, just like some of the talking heads at Fox want to trumpet the Heritage estimates as fact. Neither Fox nor Heritage can prove their numbers are correct, but you missed that point of my argument.
But you're just being a troll. I've gladly reported your behavior to Media Matters.
There are at least two things you don't know about me. One, I don't post all that often. Two, I have been just as harsh on conservatives for making statements they can't back up with anything resembling a fact either, but you have probably never read those. Have a wonderful day! :-)
That's what you said. But we know that numbers fron a non-partisan source are more valid. We don't know that they'll end up being right, but it's irrelevant. We know that the numbers from a partisan source, the Heritage Foundation and Republicans in Congress, have been debunked as valid projections because the data upon which those projections were based was misused and perverted. Yet FoxNews continued to push those distortions.
The question has never been, as you tried to make it, if we know what the final cost will be. The question has always been what's a fair way to make those projections.
And that fair way is to not misuse data. That fair way is to allow a non-partisan group to make that determination, to allow experts in individual fields do the research necessary to deliver the numbers required to provide projections.
Obama, and Brabantio, and Solon and I haven't made statments that we can't back up. We've backed them up, but you, on the other hand, have demonstrated that you either can't or won't understand simple common sense and the difference between facts and opinion.
So, your attempt to gain credibility by claiming that you've challenged conservatives in similar ways doesn't hold water. People don't get to claim credibility on this site. They have to earn it, and you have not done that. Your false equivalency - saying that you've pointed out shortcomings from those on the right too - is false because you didn't do anything like that in your interactions with us! You haven't been "harsh" on us. You've been idiotic and unreasonable and trollish.
from solon: I can go with my track record too. I
remember this same kind of argument from cons when I was telling them we weren't going to find large stockpiles of WMD's in Iraq. I was told over and over by brainwashed minions like YOU that I was a fool. I was right.
Your false equivalency - saying that you've pointed out shortcomings from those on the right too - is false because you didn't do anything like that in your interactions with us!
In response to you post earlier:
by hm1342 (2 hours and 26 minutes ago)
You: So if the extra energy costs don't really kick in for another 18 months, why were all the Republicans up in arms about the potential job losses from this bill that would supposedly happen during this economic recession?
My response: It's partly political in that, after having their butts handed to them in 2006 and 2008, many conservatives (and those who call themselves such) woke up and realized they were fiscally irresponsible for the last eight years. In my opinion, the only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans lately is that the Republicans taxed us at a slightly lower rate - both still spend way more than they take in.
As far as job losses go, it may be that with the passage of the bill, more jobs would be lost in the current energy sector (particularly in coal-fired plants) than would be gained in areas such as wind and solar power. The job losses now are tough to deal with, but potentially adding to it with this bill would make things worse. But again, no one really knows what's going to happen here, just like we don't know how long or how severe the recession will be.
Yeah, looks like I really disagreed with you there...not.
You've been idiotic and unreasonable and trollish.
And you and solon see fit to call other people who disagree with your point of view names. If I were really a troll we would not have been engaging in this debate over the last twelve hours; I would have made my first comment and left.
So, your attempt to gain credibility by claiming that you've challenged conservatives in similar ways doesn't hold water.
I don't post to gain credibility or your blessings. I post because I feel I have something important to say. Whether you or anyone else actually agrees with me is totally irrelevant. We each have our own point of view and that's the beauty of having forums like this.
And this isn't an issue of opinion. It's about facts. The fact that the projection that Congressional Republicans and FoxNews have tried to promote time and time again has been debunked countless times is a fact. The fact that the CBO is a nonpartisan source is a fact.
It's not about a point of view. As I said yesterday, we're more than willing to have a debate over how to resolve this crisis, but not about what the current cost projections are from a nonpartisan source, nor will we have that discussion using a partisan source like the Heritage Foundation.
Nobody ever said anything about "proving" a projection. The point is, as LuLu said already, that the number in question is a misrepresentation (bold mine):
You were making a general statement about projections, and how you can't judge their validity. You're still being illogical. If you're the project manager in the scenario I presented, and I say that your steel estimate is a thousand dollars too low, then either one of us could be fudging our numbers. But if I say that your estimate is twenty thousand dollars too low, then that makes it look like both estimates are dishonest? The number I pull out of the air doesn't influence the validity of your estimate. That stands on its own based on your credibility.
I never said it was anything but your opinion, what I'm saying is that it's not well thought-out, at best. This suggestion that everything is an opinion and therefore it's all equal is not new, and not particularly intelligent either.
You were making a general statement about projections, and how you can't judge their validity.
But if I say that your estimate is twenty thousand dollars too low, then that makes it look like both estimates are dishonest?
Are the CBO's numbers anything more than an educated guess? Do you agree with them? If so, why?
This suggestion that everything is an opinion and therefore it's all equal is not new, and not particularly intelligent either.
I did not say nor suggest that everything was or is an opinion, nor that all opinions are equal. I take it as axiom that 2+2 still equals 4, the Sears Tower is so many feet high, and the speed of light (as we know it) is fixed. But projections of future costs to households for energy use right now is still a guess, no matter what numbers are being used, the motivations, track record, underlying assumptions and what have you.
It's this argument you are trying to foist upon us that makes you a troll.
Projections made using actual data without a partisan agenda are factual. That doesn't mean they'll end up being correct. Projections made using distorted and abused data by a partisan group with an agenda to fight the President's plans are not factual.
You, and everyone else, has the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
The projection that FoxNews continues to use has been debunked, yet they continue to use it. That's because of their partisan agenda and because of the Republican's and the Heritage Foundation's partisan agendas.
How can you still be missing this relevant point? We know the answer. Because you are an troll who doesn't want to learn.
A troll who uprates his own posts and downrates others. That's typical, but low class.
DOOCY: OK, it's great to have you as well. There are so many numbers floating around regarding the whole cap-and-trade idea. I read one thing -- critics of this say that it's going to cost the average American family $3,000 a year, and others have said --
HOYER: Well, that's --
"DOOCY: -- the CBO -- the Congressional Budget Office -- said maybe $175 a year. What is the answer, according to your calculations? How much it's going to cost us if it does pass?
HOYER: Well, EPA and CBO, which is the independent fiscal analyst that serves the Congress and indeed the government, indicates that it's going to be about maybe 140 to 175 dollars per year, and that means about the cost of a postage stamp per day."
It sure looks like Doocy is harping on that $3,00.00 figure, right? Not hardly. And Mr. Reilly, the head of the MIT group report that the GOP inflated to $3,128.00, eventually revised his own estimate up from $366.00 to $800.00. The Heritage Foundation estimated $1,500 a year and the initial CBO projections were $1,600 a year if Obama's proposals were not adopted. All these numbers from so many sources.
I have no idea whether their projection is reasonable or not, and I don't need to know. Are they a biased source? Do they have a motivation to fudge their numbers? How about the Heritage Foundation? Are they biased?
Meteorology is all about making projections as well, and if your local weatherman is right 99% of the time, then you're likely to put your faith in what they say. If there's some other weatherman saying the complete opposite on another channel, it's not like someone sits there and thinks "garsh, they're so wildly different I bet neither is really right...They're all making edumacated guesses, aren't they?" It's preposterous. You go with the most credible and objective projection you can find, even though all projections are inherently uncertain.
This is what I'm referring to, obviously:
You're playing the equivalence game where what I say is opinion just as what you say is, therefore it's all the same. It isn't. Your opinion is based on faulty logic and reasoning.
I'm saying that we each have opinions. You may call it equivalence if you wish.
It's a fact that the CBO is nonpartisan.
It's a fact that the Heritage Foundation is extremely partisan.
It's a fact that the $3100 number has been debunked as having abused and distorted the data to come up with that projection.
You don't get to have your own opinions about those facts.
Distorting those projections and manipulating them to try to prove something those projections won't sustain is an unsubstainable opinion.
Thanks Mary.
http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf
The home page for the NCEE is http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/eed.nsf/webpages/homepage.
Cap & Trade bill, health care, bailing out financial institutions and the car industry is money that this country DOESN"T HAVE...At the rate the President and the Democrats are going this country will be bankrupt in less than two years and we will become a third world country. Could it be, is it possible that Obama was listening closer to Rev. Wright than he wants you to believe, when the man preached hate America.
WAKE UP FOLKS, YOUR FREEDOMS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY AND our COUNTRY IS BEING DESTROYED.......
And...CO2 levels should be reduced.
Besides, it's not really a carbon tax, it's a cap and trade. Utilities like Calpine, which produce all their electricity with nat. gas, will be able to sell their carbon credits. So will the truly green energy producers. Thus making them more competitive. There are new technologies that allow nat. gas to be liquified and transported which will make it cheaper. No one can really predict what change is gonna cost us, but, i've heard a lot about what doing nothing is going to cost.
http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost.aspx?bpid=219818&t=01000860093551905860