GMA host falsely reports that Ricci plaintiffs were "passed over for promotion in favor of less-qualified black candidates"
SUMMARY: ABC's Bob Woodruff falsely reported that Ricci v. DeStefano was about firefighters "passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates." In fact, no one was promoted over any other; the test results were thrown out because of a racial disparity in the results.
On the June 29 edition of ABC's Good Morning America, ABC News anchor Bob Woodruff falsely reported that Ricci v. DeStefano was about firefighters "passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates." In fact, no one was promoted. The city threw out a promotion test because of a racial disparity in the results; no African-Americans scored high enough to qualify for immediate promotion.
The district court stated in its opinion in Ricci, which was affirmed by a U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals panel that included Supreme Court nominee Judge Sonia Sotomayor: "In March 2004 the New Haven Civil Service Board ('CSB') refused to certify the results of two promotional exams for the positions of Lieutenant and Captain in the New Haven Fire Department." The district court opinion later listed among the "largely undisputed" facts of the case that "[t]he board split two to two on the question of certifying each exam as a result of which the promotional lists were not certified" [footnote and citation omitted].
The city took the position that the test at issue in the case had a discriminatory effect. In the decision that Sotomayor joined denying en banc rehearing of the appeal of the district court's decision, Judge Barrington Parker -- a George W. Bush appointee -- wrote that "the City acted out of a concern that certifying the exam results would have an adverse impact on minority candidates." Parker also wrote that the city believed that "less discriminatory alternatives to this particular test existed."
From the district court's decision:
The board split two to two on the question of certifying each exam, see id. at 70-73, as a result of which the promotional lists were not certified.
Plaintiffs allege that the non-certification vote was due to political pressure, particularly by defendant Rev. Boise Kimber, a vocal African-American minister who, it is acknowledged by all parties, is a political supporter and vote-getter for Mayor DeStefano. Plaintiffs' theory is that the defendants urged the CSB not to certify the results in the interest of pleasing minority voters and other constituents in New Haven whose priority was increasing racial diversity in the ranks of the Fire Department. Plaintiffs further argue that this pattern of political manipulation is in keeping with prior actions by the City of New Haven disregarding the Charter-mandated Rule of Three in promotional decisions in the City's police and fire departments. In support of this argument, plaintiffs proffer evidence regarding prior litigation in the Connecticut Superior and Appellate Court, the substance and outcome of which is largely admitted by defendants, and which resulted in sharp rebukes against the City for violating the civil service rules. See Pl. L.R. 56(a)1 Stmt. ¶¶ 64-90; Def. Am. L.R. 56(a)2 Stmt. ¶¶
64-90. Plaintiffs argue that the apparent racial disparity in the results of the Lieutenant and Captain exams was due to the fact that hiring into, and promotion within, the Fire Department historically has been based on political patronage and promotion of racial diversity rather than merit; and they argue that the higher-scoring firefighters simply studied harder. In addition, they argue that the evident disparity was not appreciably worse on the 2003 examinations than other past promotional examinations.
Defendants argue that "the decision not to certify [the test] results was mandated by anti-discrimination federal, state and local laws." Def. Mem. in Support of Mot. for Summary Judgment [Doc. # 52] at 4. Alternatively, they argue that they had a good faith belief that Title VII mandated non-certification of the examinations, and they cannot be liable under Title VII for attempting to comply with that very statute. Defendants additionally argue that plaintiffs lack standing to bring their Equal Protection claim, or, if they do have standing, the claim lacks merit because all firefighters were treated the same, regardless of race, as no one was promoted as a result of the contested exams.
Plaintiffs counter that a "good faith belief" that certifying the test results would violate Title VII does not constitute a defense, as a matter of law, to an allegation of Title VII or Equal Protection violations against the plaintiffs.
[footnotes omitted]
From the June 29 edition of ABC's Good Morning America:
WOODRUFF: The Supreme Court hands down its decision this morning on a controversial case that could affect Sonia Sotomayor's confirmation to the high court. The reverse discrimination case revolves around 20 firefighters from Connecticut who claim they were passed over for promotion in favor of less qualified black candidates. They sued the city, lost, then appealed to Judge Sotomayor's court. She and her fellow appellate judges again ruled against the firefighters, saying the city was within its rights.















Also notable is the fact that two white, male Appeals court judges agreed with Judge Sotomayor - as well as four Supreme Court Justices.
Dont care who supported the discrimination. Most here think it is fine, and they are simply wrong. Reverse discrimination is just as wrong, and the SC said so today.
"the City rejected the test results because “too many whites and not enough minorities would be promoted were the lists to be certified."
The problem is that when conservatives say "reverse racsim" it's a noun and when liberals say it it's a verb.
If you reverse the races - (all blacks promoted, all whites failed/passsed ove) my position would NOT change one iota: I'd still be fine with the City throwing out the results and yet would still be fine with both the appellant court's and the SC's respective rulings and reasoning. But I imagine YOUR position would change considerably - I think you'd be applauding the city, as opposed to crticizing it, and cursing the SCOTUS instead of celebrating.
Because for YOU and YOUR LOT it's all about RACE. For liberlas (on this an on every other issue) it's about REASON.
I like Roberts' court and the way the formulate their opinions. It gets most "equality and fairness" people worked up, but the rulings are very narrow and leave a lot of room for laws to be changed the proper way (for ex., states could pass laws requiring DNA testing and re-testing, even though the SCOTUS said there wasn't a constitutional right to DNA testing upon request).
The fact that minority candidates did not pass the exam, while not proof of a racial bias to the exam, is de facto evidence that the exam may have had a racial bias.
Racial bias in standardized testing has been well established, so it is not beyond the norm to accept defacto evidence.
But, again, since no promotions were given, no-one was "passed over".
Although, inequality of result can sometimes be seen as de facto evidence of inequality of opportunity. (This is where the rednecks and closet racists end up in coniption fits - it is a fine line of distinction that is not often visible through a beer haze).
However, I am COMPLETELY against "shortening the finish line for fat kids" even if it wasn't their fault that all they had to eat was twinkies. The cure it to help the next generation eat well, and preserve our society's success by giving the best the responsibility and the reward that comes with success.
These would be more accurately described as "compensatory hiring practices", and they may or may not constitute discrimination in some instances.
You are guilty of being reasonable and logical. That's against the law isn't it?
Using the term "reverse discrimination" implies that white people are somehow special.
Above all, no one is considering whether or not the test actually was biased, even looking at the question seems to be objectionable to many.
This is an absurd statement, typical of flawed conservtave thinking. Are you sure this is THE ONLY way you can "passed over"? Seems to me I can think of many other ways that you can be "passed over" and while each would consistent with one another, none would be consistant with what you describe.
You're letting your blind indeology rob words of their meaning.
The City rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white. The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory but whether the City had a lawful justification for its race-based action.
This quote clearly says, "The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory"
How more clear do you have to be? You're whole argument rests on this, and is destoyed by it.
The very justices that ruled against the city make it very clear that this was NOT case of discimination!
What is your major malfunction?!
Based on the record, the Court held (correctly in my view), that the City sorely failed to present a strong basis in evidence that it would be susceptible to liability on a claim of disparate impact. In painstaking detail the Court iterated the laborious process through which the test was developed and implemented. In developing material for test questions, they acquired data from all sorts of fire personnel, and oversampled minorities. They had a continuous give-and-take with the City throughout the entire process. There is no valid evidence that the test was based on anything other than entirely objective criteria, leaving only the stastical disparity as the city's justification for casting aside the results. The test developers were a reputable organization, who clearly took great pains to ensure the test was objective. The City's paltry rebuttal to Plaintiffs' evidence was the oblique testimony of the developer's direct competitor, who nonetheless conceded that the tests should have been certified.
After reading the opinion it is clear that the City's objections to the test itself were frivolous, and so they pathetically relied solely on the racial disparity. They were cowed by the race-bating pastor and the misrepresentations of law provided by the mayor's office.
Otherwise, I'm with you. But we (liberals) were never really arguing the case itself. The left's big problem with this is the BIG DEAL the right-wing press made out of it, and only because Sotomayor (along with 2 other judges) ruled on the appeal and somehow that was supposed to mean something profound. It doesn't. PERIOD. The city wanted to cover it's @$$ and the SCOTUS said, "You don't have to - we'll cover you."
There's nothing wrong with the decision necessarily, and I didn't hear all the evidence or arguments (and neither has anyone here) so debating that aspect of it is basically frivoulous conjecture anyway. The points are:
1) NO ONE was found to be RACIST.
2) This IS NOT a rebuke of SOTOMAYOR.
3) This DOES NOT show that liberals (or Sotomayor) are somehow out of the mainstream. (It's absurd to suggest ANY 5-4 decision could EVER demonstrate that!)
4) The 5 SC Judges in the majority WERE being judicial activists in this case. They overturned the legal decision made by the city, and upheld by at least two other court decisions. They also chanegd the legal rationale, effective changing the law, in order to overrule the lower courts and give the city the protection it needs.
Again - I'm fine with the decision, don't bother my @$$ none at all. But points 1-4 above still stand, rock solid and nothing in your, or any other con's posts has done d!ck even question, let alone debunk, them.
The record, as reflected in the majority and Alito's concurring opinion, indicates in my view that the City was way too willing to screw the firefighters who performed well on the test and deserved to have the results certified. The City's evidence that the test lacked objectivity, or otherwise failed to test firefighting skills etc . . . was exceedingly weak. Its most credible critic of the test stated that the results should have been certified. The other stated that all standardized tests result in disparate results, and she declined even to glance at the test. In any event, the mayor didn't give a hoot how the board ultimately decided, as he would've invalidated the results regardless . . ..
And the accounts from the hearings, on whether to certify the results, definitely indicate that many who wanted the tests invalidated injected race-politics into the fray, pure and simple. The pastor and his cohort (the one who called the white firefighers "Klansmen") are despicable pieces of garbage, in keeping with their other pal -- the corrupt mayor. Ironic how Ginsburg belabors that "context counts" in these situations, yet she pays lip service to this half of the contextual underpinnings.
It was clear that the test developer appropriately went out of its way to ensure that the test would be race-neutral. It worked with the city throughout, and the questions were evaluated by professional firefighters, including professional minority firefighters. I simply have not read anything that undermines the validity of the tests, and certainly nobody on these boards has identified any.
As far as your points 1-4, I don't see racism among the relevant players either (aside from the pastor and his friend). What I do see is pathetic timidity in the face of discrimination charges. My reading of the opinions reveal that the City wanted to (and did) scrap the results by reason of the statistical disparity alone, and that this was justified (if not mandated) by Title VII. Their easy willingness to simply screw over the worthy applicants for promotion is pathetic. The statistical disparity was the mainstay of the City's argument because its attack on the test itself was utterly frivolous.
Regarding points 2-4, I agree it's not a rebuke of Sotomayer. Without her putting pen to paper, nobody knows precisely how she would have analyzed the issues discussed in the majority and dissenting opinions of the Court. And I agree as well that the dissenting opinion by no means radical, I'm glad its view did not prevail
I suppose it is false, they didn't promote anyone. Racial disperity just meant that they really wanted to promote a black guy, but the white guys scored higher.....damn white guys. So much for the most qualified person for the job theory.
Maybe someone can provide actual examples of the questions. I have no idea without seeing the questions if this is true or not, but for instance questions using math or general knowledge may be an indicator of intelligence by some measure, but not applicable to the qualities necessary to manage firefighters and/or do job tasks well.
Dave's Response:
Let's review. Dave says that because the white applicants scored higher, it means the test "..measured who was most qualified for the job". Telling. This is precisely the type of racism that we are trying to combat.
There's no listening. Just endless cheering that the white man prevailed against the evil forces of racism.
The white guys scored higher than the black guys on a promotions test, and should have been promoted. Yup, you got me there. I'm racist.
That is racist by definition. If you didn't phrase that the way you meant to, explain it, but otherwise I don't see how else to interpret that comment.
Are you saying that when you said "actually I do" that you were imagining the question to be "Do you think that the people who scored higher should be promoted"? That's an awfully strange misinterpretation.
And aren't you the same person who referred to "towelhead land" on a thread not too long ago? I'm not saying that proves anything in and of itself, but it's sort of hard to give that much of a benefit of the doubt to someone who thinks in those sorts of terms.
Your answer was "Actually I do. The white guys scored higher"
This is flat out racist. No real way out of it.
Despite the attempts to assassinate your character by some liberals...your assessment is correct...and backed by the SC.
Now here's the biggest softball that I can toss your way that should put this racism silliness to rest...
If the test scores had been the reverse...with all blacks scoring higher...who should have gotten the promotions?
Nobody. Statistical clumping like that is a red flag that there's a bias in the test, and the results should be thrown out.
Now, if you really want to put the racism "silliness" to rest, you can explain how saying that white people scoring better is evidence of testing for qualifications isn't a racist comment. If you want to defend Dave, make a real effort at it, instead of throwing out a moronic attempt at a gotcha question.
Guess what? The city of New Haven could not produce evidence of the test being flawed racially.
-- There is no genuine dispute that the examinations were job-related and consistent with business necessity. The city's assertions to the contrary are blatantly contradicted by the record...
The city, moreover, turned a blind eye to evidence that supported the exams validity. -- Justice Kennedy
The SC was clear...New Haven's decision not to certify the test results was based on race and they could provide no compelling evidence that the test was flawed.
What are you doing man? These guys dont want to hear the FACTS that the test was valid. What will Solon argue if he actually shuts up for once and reads!!!
At least folks in the KKK and skinhead groups are willing to admit their hatred. It's closet racists like Dave that are currently doing to most damage to minorities as they've taken their prejudice underground while finding subtle ways to express it.
You really should just shut up at this point. Defending comments like Dave's is not a smart path to take, and it's clear that you're either trolling, you're a racist, or you've just lost your way completely on this thread.
If you want to talk about "knee-jerk" responses, maybe you should go back and look at your reply regarding Dave's racism. I notice you're not too eager to address that particular aspect of my post, for some mysterious reason.
Conservatives usually argue that decisions should be made as locally as possible (especially when the judgement is split as in this case 5-4) and that the SCOTUS should avoid substituting their own judgement for that of the governing authority - that can be held accountable at the local level. Anything else has been called "judicial activism". For example - the states' rights debate and majoritarianism.
The City rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white. The question is not whether that conduct was discriminatory but whether the City had a lawful justification for its race-based action.
A fair test on the knowledge required for promotion to captain and Lt. was issued. Anyone...and I mean anyone...who scored high enough should be promoted.
Every candidate was offered a fair opportunity to prove their merit. That is all that is required...equal opportunity...not equal results.
You are 100% correct sir.
The plaintiffs submitted tons of evidence and testimony about the fairness of the test. It was about job related knowledge.
The defendants throughout these cases could only mumble about racial diversity and their fear of promoting qualified candidates that did not fit a racial profile.
Those that passed the test should be promoted...while those that did not pass the test should not be promoted because...they FAILED when given an equal opportunity.
If I'm running something, a "perfect" test is one where exactly the # of candidates that I need pass.
"What is 2/3 of 50%?"
Now, what does this have to do with being a firefighter?
Of course, if it's truly a question that was on the test, I think what it has to do with being a firefighter LEADER and MANAGER, is that they want to make sure you have 5th grade math skills.
By the way, finding fractions of percentages is fifth grade math. Percentages are essentially fractions.
Now, what does this have to do with being a firefighter?"
Unfortunately, America doesn't seem to value basic mathematical skills anymore. This is fifth grade math. I would hope that any firefighter (or anybody older than 11) could solve this in his or her head. Firefighters use a variety of instruments; basic math skills (fifth grade, remember) are necessary.
Are you saying that a test couldn't be constructed for this particular job that unfairly gave white applicants an edge? Do you at least acknowledge that it's possible?
Yeah. That was my point. It wasnt however in any way addressed in your perfect test criteria.
I'm Scotch/Irish but I've never been called to a "keep the black man down" meeting...in fact, I've never been called to any "let's celebrate whitey" meetings either! I have to find the list and get my name on it; can you help me out with that Once?
Racism is the practice of deciding everything about a person or group of people based solely on the color of their skin, and most often with negative overtones. That means any color of skin. Any negative bias based on skin color is racist, simple as that. It is also well to remember that racism tends to be an equal opportunity form of laziness, allowing individuals to smear entire segments of society on a grand scale.
Here endeth the language lesson...
This ruling has nothing to do with hiring quotas or racism. It merely states that the city of New Haven did not use a valid criteria for throwing out the test.
The end result will likely be the same, anyway, since the initial exam can now probably be tossed out because of the amount of time that has passed - a common practice with civil service exams (and, therefore, likely to be upheld all the way to the SCOTUS).
A Pyrrhic victory, at best.
"Civil Service Board refuses to certify the results of pen and paper exam citing obvious racial bias. The Board noted that despite the fact that there were many highly skilled and completely qualified white candidates, not a single white candidate passed the test. The test was created and administered by an all black independent testing firm." Would these people be saying, "reverse discrimination! The test was obviously UNFAIR!" Why won't these "states rights", "local control" conservatives allow a local Civil Service Board determine their own methods of local promotion?
I think the lower court had it right. If you see a test is not fair, you should try to fix it, not just in the interest of justice, but also in this case in the interest of good public policy. Excluding potential excellent and well qualified candidates based on a test that the board determines is inadequate or unfair would be irresponsible.
A lot of "progressives" are arguing that the test probably was biased, which again has nothing to do with the case, and is completely unfounded, given the super-small sample size of a group of firefighters in one CT town.
-- The city made its employment decision because of race...The city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white -- Supreme Court
The city also failed to prove that the test was not valid:
-- There is no genuine dispute that the examinations were job-related and consistent with business necessity. The city's assertions to the contrary are blatantly contradicted by the record...The city, moreover, turned a blind eye to evidence that supported the exams validity -- Supreme Court
It was a valid employment test that the weak-kneed city of New Haven chose to ignore while being cowed by racial activist's threats...which didn't fool the Supreme Court.
There's a word I'm avoiding. Three guesses, first two don't count.
I have to admit i kind of like your recap and guesses. I cant argue the rabidly conservative, I dont think i am brainwashed (but if I was, i would not know), and I honestly do think it is a fairness issue at the heart of this case.
You see a lot of this in the South. I make the distinction because these people are not overt. They don't revel in being racists like some here in the South do and they may even think that working with or knowing a black person means they're not racist either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The city and the Supreme Court MAJORITY disagreed on this crucial point. That doesnt mean the city was weak kneed. It means they saw it differently. They also saw their obligation differently. Not as can they prove the test was biased but if they could show it measured ability to do the job. Obviously there WAS a dispute about that which is why the City tossed the test. I dont even see how the SC can simultaneously claim there was no dispute AND that the City ignored evidence the test WAS valid. The claim the city made this decision based ONLY on the fact whites scored higher is an opinion. One I have seen no evidence of. IF when challenged the city had said well obviously since whites scored higher something is wrong they would have a point. They didnt when challenged they said they couldnt show that the test measured the ability to do the job.
From my reading of the case:
1. the SC majority believes there is no dispute, but the city does.
2. The SC majority said the city "turned a blind eye" to evidence that the test was valid. They also said the city did not request an analysis of the test questions and results from the company that created the test.
Those are two of the reasons I think the majority did not see a true dispute.
The part where they claim the city made the decision based on race was stated by the SC court, but the context was agreeing with the opinion of a lower court.
I would hold that New Haven had ample cause to believe its selection process was flawed and not justified by business necessity.
So clearly there IS a dispute on that issue. Just SAYING there isnt a dispute while others are clearly disputing it seems odd to me
It shoudln't. They do this ALL THE TIME. Refer to Brit Hume's analysis of the New Deal: "I think we can all conclude it was a failure." for example.
They also do the opposiste: Say there IS a dispute when there is none. See pretty much all of their rhetoric on global warming and climate change. There are disputes, of course, but not in ANY of the areas that the climate deniers say there is.