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Conservatives say Obama is siding with Chavez and Cuba on Honduras

June 30, 2009 11:25 am ET

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SUMMARY: Conservatives in the media have criticized President Obama's condemnation of the Honduran president's ouster, asserting that Obama is taking the same side as Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the leadership in Cuba. However, the European Union has also condemned the ouster.

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Since the June 28 ousting of Honduran President Manuel Zelaya, conservatives in the media have criticized President Obama's condemnation of the ouster, asserting that Obama is taking the same side as Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the leadership in Cuba. However, these figures have not noted that the European Union has also condemned the ouster.

On June 28, Obama released the following statement on Honduras:

I am deeply concerned by reports coming out of Honduras regarding the detention and expulsion of President Mel Zelaya. As the Organization of American States [OAS] did on Friday, I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference.

At a June 29 joint press availability with Colombian President Álvaro Uribe, Obama stated: "All of us have great concerns about what's taken place there. President Zelaya was democratically elected. He had not yet completed his term. We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the President of Honduras, the democratically elected President there. In that we have joined all the countries in the region, including Colombia and the Organization of American States." He later stated: "So we are very clear about the fact that President Zelaya is the democratically elected President, and we will work with the regional organizations like OAS and with other international institutions to see if we can resolve this in a peaceful way."

On June 29, the European Union posted on its website a "Declaration by the Presidency, on behalf of the European Union, on Honduras," which states:

On 28 June Foreign Ministers of the European Union strongly condemned the military actions which were directed against democratically elected President Zelaya and part of his cabinet and have violated the constitutional order of Honduras. The EU urges the immediate release of all detained governmental representatives and calls on all relevant parties and institutions to refrain from violence and to strive to find a swift and peaceful solution to the current situation. This should be in accordance with the existing constitutional order of Honduras, the principles of rule of law an democracy..

The BBC noted the European Union's statement -- along with statements on Honduras from other world leaders -- in a June 28 article.

On the June 29 edition of his Fox News show, Glenn Beck said of Zelaya's ouster: "They installed their own man, drawing a quick rebuke from Cuba, Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez, and our president." Beck added: "Wow, good company we're keeping ourselves with." Similarly, on the June 30 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, in arguing that Obama was "sending the wrong message to our allies and our foes," Beck stated: "I'm telling you, the policies that we have seem to always embrace our enemies and slap our friends across the face. It just doesn't make sense to me."

Other conservatives who have recently criticized Obama for taking the same side as Cuba and Venezuela include:

  • In a June 30 column titled, "Honduras Defends Its Democracy," Wall Street Journal editorial board member Mary Anastasia O'Grady wrote, "Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself." O'Grady added: "The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground."
  • On the June 29 edition of Fox News' Special Report, talking about Obama's position on Honduras, Washington Post columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer stated: "Look, a rule of thumb here is whenever you find yourself on the side of Hugo Chavez, Daniel Ortega, and the Castro twins, you ought to re-examine your assumptions." Moments later, Fox News contributor Bill Kristol added, "And it does seem to me that it's unbelievable that, on the same day that's happening, instead of reserving judgment, President Obama is out there denouncing this one; whereas in Iran, it's 'hey, who knows if those elections were fair or not? There weren't international observers there.' "

Later in the discussion, Krauthammer said: "It's not harmless, America supporting the president in this, because it puts us on the side of the U.N., the OAS, and Chavez. Pressure on the government, isolation on the existing government of Honduras could bring it down and a restoration of this guy and a Chavez dictatorship."

From O'Grady's June 30 Wall Street Journal column:

But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

[...]

It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.

From the June 29 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Bret Baier:

BRET BAIER (host): What about all of this: the coup, what it means for the U.S., and the response? We're back with the panel -- Charles?

KRAUTHAMMER: Well, the president has a knack for getting all of these big decisions wrong. Two weeks ago, he refuses to meddle in a country where peaceful demonstrators are getting shot by a theocratic dictatorship. He doesn't want to choose sides.

And now, he's eager to meddle on behalf of a president in Honduras, who is a Chavez wannabe, who's strong-arming his way to a referendum that has been declared illegal by his Supreme Court as a way to have a referendum to establish a constituent assembly, which will establish a new constitution, which will be a Chavez-like dictatorship.

That's what everybody understands in Honduras, and that's why the Supreme Court had ruled his referendum illegal. Only Congress has a right to call it, not the president. Congress had denounced it. The Supreme Court had told the military not to assist in the referendum because it's illegal. So Zelaya fires the chief of staff of the army. The Supreme Court orders him reinstated; he fires him again.

This guy is acting extra-constitutionally. Yes, he was elected, but Hitler was as well, and Chavez also was. It's easy to dismantle a democracy if you're a president, if you're intent on doing it -- and he's intent on doing it.

So, our decision ought to be, yes, a coup isn't a nice thing, but it's preferable to having Zelaya dismantle the democracy. And we should insist on the elections of a president as scheduled in November, so it's a temporary situation.

Look, a rule of thumb here is whenever you find yourself on the side of Hugo Chavez, Daniel Ortega, and the Castro twins, you ought to re-examine your assumptions.

MARA LIASSON (NPR national political correspondent): Look, I --

BAIER: We should point out, Mara, that Hugo Chavez said in a speech today, he referenced U.S. interference in Honduras. And U.S. officials are saying that they knew this coup was in the works --

LIASSON: Well, they tried to -- they tried to --

BAIER: -- and they were working behind the scenes.

LIASSON: You know what? I actually have a different take. I think that the president's words -- it's almost like he doth protests too much. I think that they're perfectly happy with the outcome of what happened. They'd rather not have a Chavez-like president, another one, in Central America.

Now, I think it's the correct public diplomacy in politics to say that, of course, we're for the democratically elected president, and we don't like coups in Latin America, but when all the dust settles, they'll be perfectly happy to work with this new guy.

They are not working to get Zelaya back into power. That's not what the U.S. is doing here. Now, you're kind of extrapolating that position --

KRAUTHAMMER: No, I --

LIASSON: -- from his statements.

I think that this is -- in terms of the split also in terms of the State Department and the White House with Secretary of State Clinton being less forward, not really willing to say this was illegal -- I think that, in the end, this is the outcome that the United States would have preferred. This is not the method that they want to publicly condone.

BAIER: We should point out the new guy is congressional leader Roberto Micheletti, who was --

LIASSON: Constitutionally --

BAIER: He was next in line. And --

LIASSON: He was next in line. The military didn't install him.

BAIER: He was sworn in as president.

LIASSON: This is what's supposed to happen. Right.

KRISTOL: Yeah, he's the equivalent of the speaker of the House.

LIASSON: Yeah. Right.

KRISTOL: He's become president. He has pledged fair and free presidential elections in November with international observers. That seems like a pretty adequate outcome for a president who was trying to go around the constitution and clearly was trying to stage his own kind of semi -- his own coup, as it were, you know, sitting as president.

So, I don't know quite why our president is so upset about what seemed to be a good outcome.

LIASSON: He's not so upset.

KRISTOL: I disagree. He's playing a very dangerous hand there. Chavez says he's going to intervene and invade. And we are signing onto resolutions --

BAIER: Invade Honduras?

KRISTOL: Yes. And it's not out of the -- you know, the guy, he can do it. I mean, the guy -- and he's going to say, the OAS says this is illegitimate; the U.S. says this is illegitimate. Obama makes it sound like we won't recognize the new government. He's been, of course, much tougher on this than on Iran, as several people have pointed out.

But, again, I come back to the fact this new government has set free and fair elections in November. That's a pretty -- that's not really your classic military coup -- your takeover for 15 years, you're sticking people in jail, you're dissolving congress.

And it does seem to me that it's unbelievable that, on the same day that's happening, instead of reserving judgment, President Obama is out there denouncing this one; whereas in Iran, it's "hey, who knows if those elections were fair or not? There weren't international observers there."

LIASSON: He corrected that statement.

BAIER: Charles, how does this end up?

KRAUTHAMMER: It's not harmless, America supporting the president in this, because it puts us on the side of the U.N., the OAS, and Chavez. Pressure on the government, isolation on the existing government of Honduras could bring it down and a restoration of this guy and a Chavez dictatorship.

BAIER: Manuel Zelaya, the president who was ousted, is going to be at the United Nations tomorrow, and we will have coverage of that.

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    • Author by mefirst (June 30, 2009 11:39 am ET)
      4 1
      we can't be seen as supporting coups. it's that simple. if this guy is the bogeyman the right claims, then he will make that evident. the smartest thing we have done is leave chavez alone and not let him use us to whip up patriotic fervor as an excuse why he has to crack down on his opponents.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 30, 2009 12:43 pm ET)
        2 1
        I thumbs-upped this post.

        We know Zelaya was being creepy and trying to subvert the Constitution, but overthrow by force isn't the answer in a democratic republic.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mjh (June 30, 2009 2:25 pm ET)
          2  
          "We know Zelaya was being creepy and trying to subvert the Constitution, but overthrow by force isn't the answer in a democratic republic."


          Try telling that to the neoKKKlowns. They're the ones who constantly advocate such activity in Iran . . .
          Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 11:36 pm ET)
          1  
          Exactly. The condemnation is pretty much unanimous worldwide.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by devhyfes (July 01, 2009 12:24 pm ET)
           
        This isn't that simple.

        The Honduran constitution says that any leader who attempts to enact a law, calls for a law, or supports a law that would remove term limits is ineligible for office and must vacate it immediately. Their Constitution doesn't specify how such traitors should be removed from office.

        Zelaya chose to lead an armed band of supporters to an air force base and seize the ballots for his illegal initiative- the Ballots that his constitution, judiciary and legislature all said could not be used. This, by definition, is also a coup- using armed force to grab or increase power in the government.

        As I said in an earlier post, some sort of due process was used here. A "leader" didn't use the military to install himself into power. Rather, the courts attempted to give orders to the president and when he continued to disobey, they ordered him removed. It isn't clear if they have the authority to do so, but the suggestion that this is a cut-and-dry coup as most people understand the term (or more so than the coup Zelaya was trying to perpetrate) just doesn't hold. If anything, it was technically a counter-coup.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by mk3872 (June 30, 2009 11:44 am ET)
      8  
      Typical right-wing double-standards at play.

      If the Honduras leader were a conservatives, they'd be hammering Obama for not doing ENOUGH.

      Krauthammer, Kristol & Fox News have simply proving that they will defend to the death, any position that is exactly opposite that of Obama.

      This is Obama Derangement Syndrome.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by shaggles (June 30, 2009 12:29 pm ET)
        2  
        Exactly.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by dexteritas0071418 (June 30, 2009 12:46 pm ET)
          4
        Gosh, you could replace "Obama" with "Bush II" and "Krauthammer, et all" with "Krugman, et all" and find this exact same post on RedState!
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 30, 2009 2:15 pm ET)
          3 1
          Except Krugman backs up his essays with facts. Krauthammer pulls his "facts" from mid-air.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by haywood jabuzoff (June 30, 2009 3:18 pm ET)
            3  
            However, as any conservative will tell you, facts are highly over rated.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by pointofview (June 30, 2009 5:38 pm ET)
              3
            You only think that because you have a fourth grade education at best.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 5:48 pm ET)
              2  
              You only think that because you have a fourth grade education at best.
              That's a pithy retort. I hope you kneel down and pray to God that he blessed you with that brilliant rhetorical gift of yours.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
              4  
              Which would put him at least three years above YOU
              Report Abuse
      • Author by thejbomb65 (June 30, 2009 12:56 pm ET)
        3  
        those three names right there is all you needed to make your case. i mean bill kristol alone is enough ammo.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Brabantio (June 30, 2009 3:15 pm ET)
        3  
        What I wonder is what would happen if Chavez and Castro disagreed on something. Would the narrative be "Obama rebukes..." or would it be "Obama sides with..."? I'm guessing it would be the latter.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by newzhound (June 30, 2009 2:58 pm ET)
      2  
      Why do they shout that President Obama is siding with Chavez and the Castro brothers. Why aren't they siding with us?

      Remember what Ronald Reagan said: "I'm not endorsing them. They are endorsing me."
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wizbor4654 (June 30, 2009 3:54 pm ET)
        4
      Why wouldn't Obama is side with Chavez and Cuba as well as the EU? Socialists tend to agree with each other.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 4:17 pm ET)
        2 1
        Why wouldn't Obama is side with Chavez and Cuba as well as the EU?
        Conservatives have poor grammar.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 6:14 pm ET)
        2  
        Morons tend to agree with each other too. Hence your post
        Report Abuse
    • Author by anotheramerican (June 30, 2009 4:27 pm ET)
      3 5
      Zeleya was simply arrested because he was illegally trying to circumvent the Honduran Constitution and get himself re-elected a la Chavez.

      The Honduran Supreme Court said he couldn't do it. The Military refused to distribute the ballots and Zeleya had his thugs take the ballots with the intent of still holding the elections. Zelaya fired military chief Gen. Romeo Vasquez last week for refusing to help him run Sunday's unofficial survey on extending the four-year term limit on Honduran president

      Zeleya is clearly in the wrong in attempting to abrogate their Constitution. Why Obama would support him is puzzling to say the least.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 5:24 pm ET)
        4 2
        Zeleya was simply arrested because he was illegally trying to circumvent the Honduran Constitution and get himself re-elected a la Chavez.
        No..ala George W. Bush and we didn't overthrow him with a coup. We got back at his party with old fashioned democracy.

        I love how cons spin coups as "simply arrested" when its their guy that is doing the overthrowing, but it's insurrection otherwise.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by proudconservative (June 30, 2009 6:27 pm ET)
            5
          The leftists continue to whine about the loss of Florida, get over it already! The Supreme Court confirmed the victory and algore gained 100 lbs after that. And yes, you beat a watered down party but the constitution wasn't changed as Chavez did and Zeleya hoped to do. The Hondurian Supreme Court and Assembly were the ones that asked the military to stop this leftist nutjob.

          http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/27/honduras.zelaya/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

          It is interesting that Obama is willing to meddle with this one, but when people want democracy in Iran, he is silent.

          I would love to put side-by-side the election poster of Obama with one of his leftist cronies, ie castro, chavez,guevara, stalin, but the thought czars at media matters (for very little) would probably deem that too obscene. So just imagine with me....


            Obama Picture

            Insert picture of your favorite leftist here




          PS Hey thought police at mm(fvl), this is 110 obscenity-challenged posting, what happened to 107,108, & 109?? :)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by proudconservative (June 30, 2009 6:28 pm ET)
              4
            Hey I'm off the Banned List!

            Thanks, mm(fvl)
            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 7:02 pm ET)
              3  
              Too bad you are nothing but a troll. You dont even TRY to discuss here. You only come to heap contempt on liberals. Your every post is to put down the left and strangely enough that is NEVER the topic here. There are a few long term troll rather than the reasoned conservatives and of them all you are the worst and most worthless.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by proudconservative (July 01, 2009 9:38 am ET)
                  1
                Have you ever blessed conservatives here during one of your postings?

                Also, this is the first time in months that I have been allowed to engage in real-time dialogue on this site. Sometimes the difference in time from my writing to post was hours. Now that the thought czars here at mm(fvl) have lifted the ban on open discussion, I will be glad to speak truth to power and as always, clearly state that conservative principles are what established this country and will keep it a great and special nation.

                Now in my posting above, I linked to an article directly supporting my comments that Obama was willing to jump to the defense of a leftist president seeking to extend his power against his country's constitution, Supreme Court and Legislature. It was my contention that Obama was much more inclined to meddle in Honduras than comparatively to support the demonstrators demanding more freedom in Iran. Why would this be so?

                http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/27/honduras.zelaya/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 11:52 am ET)
                  1  
                  Once again, proudconservative verifies that pride goes before a fall.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 5:34 pm ET)
                  1  
                  Have you ever blessed conservatives here during one of your postings?


                  Yes many times. I have also defended conservatives against what I thought were unfair attacks.

                  You dont speak truth. You spew propganda and virtually every post you make is filled with contempt for liberals usually not even close to the subject. The entire WORLD is condemning the coup to characterize it as Obama supporting a leftist and agreeing with Chavez and Castro is not just propganda it is plaiin stupid. You dont have a point. You have your propagandistic talking points. The ones you have been programed with that dont even come close to making sense
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by OnceYouGoBarack (June 30, 2009 6:41 pm ET)
            1  
            I would love to put side-by-side the election poster of Obama with one of his leftist cronies
            Methinks you don't know what the word "crony" means. It isn't surprising.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (June 30, 2009 7:06 pm ET)
                3
              crony
              n.

              comrade, buddy*, cohort; see associate, friend 1.



              Webster's New World Roget's A-Z Thesaurus Copyright © 1999 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio.
              Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc.


              I especially like the 'comrade' part!


              rony (krō′nē)

              noun pl. cronies -·nies

              a close companion
              Etymology: Brit university slang < ? Gr chronios, long-continued (hence taken as “old friend”) < chronos, time
              Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio.
              Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc.


              And for your viewing.....


              http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2094/2284436689_5a1db3c969.jpg


              and


              http://democratequalssocialist.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/chavez.png

              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 7:08 pm ET)
                2  
                So you link to a rightwing snivel sight for WHAT reason? You dont imagine their OPINION has anything useful to say to those of us who are not as brainwashed as you do you? See, you are nothing but a troll.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by proudconservative (June 30, 2009 7:16 pm ET)
                    3
                  Images are now right winged? or was it the defintion site that overwhelmed you? You know Obama's bud Castro has put keepers of books, like dictionaries in prison?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 7:21 pm ET)
                    2  
                    You know you are a troll who just tells lies dont you? Castro and Obama are buddies? You are just being a jerk. Yeah any site called Democratsaresocialists is not only rightwing but too stupid to know what socialism is. Why in the world couldnt an image be rightwing? You really arent very good at this which is why I guess you settle for being a troll
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by proudconservative (July 01, 2009 10:02 am ET)
                        3
                      Sure, I'd love to debate now.

                      I believe that conservatism upholds individual freedom as the conerstone of political thought. Socialism, sees the need for the collective group or class as the basis for establishing and maintaining government.

                      The Castro brothers have claimed Cuba, (as did Michael Moore) to be the ideal state for communial living. Power to rule is with a small group or individual, not the people. The people of Cuba have very little individual liberty in any aspect of their lives. The government controls everything through threat and imprisonment. Hugo Chavez would like to have the exact same system in Venezuela and he has stated his desire to control the media and industry. We will see if he will allow power to slip from his hands when he is to step down.

                      Obama has given the colletive government here more control over alot of industry. From nationalizing banking, auto industry and soon health care. His strong support of unionism is another 'class' that fits the model for socializing the economy. It runs directly counter to the idea of individual liberty, choice, freedom. Obama and Marx have more in common that Obama would with Milton Friedman.

                      To call Obama and Castro 'buds' could be considered and exaggeration, but on what planet should an American president find himself supporting a self identified leftist, Zeleya, and in agreement with Ortiz, Chavez, and the Castro Brothers on the legitimacy of a government?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 11:54 am ET)
                           
                        Sure, I'd love to debate now.
                        Too bad you bring spitwads to a gunfight.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 4:30 pm ET)
                        1  
                        You call that a debate? OK, what you believe isnt really relevant here. Especially what you believe about Obama since he is NOT a socialist and calling him a buddy of Castro isnt just an exaggeration is a slur. You are just being a jerk to do that. We both KNOW they are not buddies. Yeah, we have exerted some small amount of control over industries that have BANKRUPTED THEMSELVES AND ALMOST THE COUNTRY. If a BANK loans you a lot of money when you are facing bankrupcy they do the same thing. They demand certain changes and certain conditions FOR THE LOAN. Did you MISS the part where we POURED billions of taxpayer dollars into those industries? I am sure most libertarians would prefer we just GAVE industry the TAXPAYER money with NO strings attached but I dont like that idea.

                        Your obsession with Micheal Moore is your burden to carry and no one here is touting Cuba as an ideal society. It probably is a bit worse than it would have been without our crippling economic sanctions and terrorism against them but it still would probably be totalitarian. The thing is we shouldnt judge them base on OUR society but the other third world countries in the region. If the average joe from Guatemala or El Salvador woke up in Cuba they would think they died and went to heaven. Their children would be gauranteed an education and healthcare which is beyond their wildest dreams in their country and if they dont have freedom of speech they didnt in Guatemala and El Salvador either and THOSE countries we support. If you will go to prison for years in Cuba for speaking out. You are hacked to death with machetes for speaking out in Guatemala. So Castro is no role model and no one said he was but the ENTIRE WORLD is attacking the coup. Britian is, Germany is, France is. To say this shows Obama is supporting Castro and Chavez because they agree on this is not just simplistic it is dumb. Why arent we saying Obama is agreeing with Britian on this. Do you think in Britian there are a bunch of screechmonkeys attacking the Prime Minister because he is agreeing with Castro and Chavez? No because they are adults and havent been brainwashed to regurgitate idiocy as if it made sense.

                        Your statement that Obama has more in common with Marx than Milton Friedman is just plain stupid. There is no other word for it. You guys think making such idiotic statements make them true when in fact they just show how truly brainwashed you are.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (July 01, 2009 6:16 pm ET)
                          2  
                          You are absolutely correct in your response, Solon. And this attitude of "more in common with Marx than Milton" and that Obama is a socialist who is palling around with Castro is simply lunacy. It is also exactly why people like myself are no longer Republicans.

                          This embrace of ignorance and anti-intellectualism. This thought that governing and name-calling for politics is all a game and nothing to be taken seriously is truly pathetic.

                          It hurts the political discourse in this country and it cheapens the adult conversation. But all that is not why it is detrimental to society. This mindset of Limbaugh and Beck and O'Reilly and their trolls that we sometimes see here are truly hurting any solutions. It keeps the dialogue in the media and in politics at this idiotic level where we cannot have discussions about the big issues and the big solutions on an adult level.

                          Obama has not nationalized any industry. He is giving out huge loans to these industries to keep the economy from failing and expecting certain signs of competence in exchange for these huge loans. There is a real argument to be had for some nationalization and what America is getting for its investments at this point. But, we cannot even get to that conversation because we get caught up attempting to explain socialism to a 12-year old. We cannot get to the discussion of an actual national healthcare policy like the rest of the 1st world has because even offering an alternative to the HMOs are met with lunacy about Lenin and fascism. The lowering of debate in this country will be the legacy of Limbaugh and Rove and G-Dub and, unfortunately, the price that will be paid by our lack of progress as a country because of it will be the legacy of the Republican party.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 1:19 am ET)
                    1  
                    You are a troll.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 11:53 am ET)
                   
                rony (krō′nē)
                Some jokes just write themselves.
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          • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 7:00 pm ET)
            4  
            Proud you never know what you are talking about. Chavez didnt change the constitution. He put a change in the constitution UP FOR A VOTE. It failed. Dont you ever get tired of embarassing yourself and showing just how uninfomed you are?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (June 30, 2009 7:13 pm ET)
                5
              Off course it failed, and we can all be assured he will gladly step away from power.

              http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-ed-venezuela6-2008jun06,0,5174147.story

              But a good leftist never lets a constituition stand in his way of accumulating power for life!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 30, 2009 7:24 pm ET)
                3  
                So you SAID he changed the constitution because you never know what you are talking about or because you are a liar and now you are claiming that even though he DID put it up for a vote he still wont abide by it without the slightest evidence other than your delusions and an opinion piece to back it up? You are a troll. A good rightwingnut never lets facts stand in the way of his delusional fantasies
                Report Abuse
                • Author by anotheramerican (July 01, 2009 11:18 am ET)
                    2
                  Normally I would say, "I can't believe you are defending Chavez..." but the fact that you do is not surprising.

                  The following is from the WSJ Opinion Journal of Feb. 17, 2009:

                  Venezuela's Hugo Chávez celebrated a decade in power on February 2, and on Sunday he won a national referendum that will let him run for a third six-year term in 2012, and beyond. Like his idol, Fidel Castro, who reigned in Cuba for a half-century, Mr. Chávez can now move toward his goal of becoming President for life.

                  Sunday's 54%-46% win comes as little surprise, given that Mr. Chávez controlled all aspects of the electoral process, ordered up favorable TV coverage and mobilized government institutions to get out the vote. In 2007, Mr. Chávez lost a similar bid to remove term limits on the presidency, and this time he pulled out all the stops. The victory is a blow to the fragmented democratic opposition, which had hoped that the country's economic hardships -- including inflation at 35% and rising -- would turn more voters against Mr. Chávez's "revolution."

                  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123482581445795001.html
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                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 11:58 am ET)
                    1  
                    Normally I would say, "I can't believe you are defending Chavez..." but the fact that you do is not surprising.
                    The fact that you missed the point entirely is also not surprising. PC calimed that Chavez changed the constitution. Solon showed he didn't. You declared, stupidly, that Solon, by pointing out PC's error (nothing unusual, PC is rarely correct on any topic) is defending Chavez.

                    You really can't argue anything from a position of knowledge, can you, "Doctor?"
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 11:58 am ET)
                         
                      "Calimed" should be "claimed."
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by anotheramerican (July 01, 2009 2:06 pm ET)
                        1
                      ETRW,

                      I did not miss the point. You notice I was not trying to refute Solon. Rather than criticizing me, if you would have taken the time to read my snippet, "In 2007, Mr. Chávez lost a similar bid to remove term limits on the presidency, and this time he pulled out all the stops." It is readily apparent that it supports Solon's narrow contention.

                      The point I was making, (and POV was doing the same,) is that Chavez is indeed trying to become a lifetime "el Presidente" and continues to consolidate his power by taking away basic freedoms of Venezuelans.

                      Maybe Solon is just in an argumentive mood, which many of tend to be, arguing the narrow point rather than the broader one, but the question that haunts me why would anyone argue so strenuously against POV's point? Even though Solon is technically correct by doing so he looks to me to be effectively support an anti-democratic, anti-American thug like Chavez.

                      Maybe I am wrong, does Solon support Chavez and Zelaya?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 3:07 pm ET)
                           
                        Even though Solon is technically correct by doing so he looks to me to be effectively support an anti-democratic, anti-American thug like Chavez.
                        Ant that, as is your usual tactic, is an implication unsupported by fact.

                        Does that make me a supporter of Chavez and Zelaya? And why do you lump those two together? Chavez provides cheap heating oil to American families in need. Is that a bad thing, in your blindered eyes?
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 4:42 pm ET)
                        1  
                        Whatever he is trying to do he is doing it consistant with the LEGAL political way things are done in Venezuala. I dont care one way or another about Chavez he isnt OUR politiican it doesnt matter what YOU or I think of him rather it matters what the Venezualans think of him. I want to know do YOU support Proud LYING about Chavez? Do you think it is your place to take me to task for CORRECTING proud when what he says is PATENTLY UNTRUE? The larger point? He said Chavez CHANGED the constitution to you it is a larger point that Chavez PUT UP FOR A VOTE a change that YOU wish he hadnt? The one makes him a dictator the other a politician using the LEGAL machinery to keep power because he is popular. Your article is so precious. He pulled out all the stops? That is a criticism? DId BUSH pull out all the stops to win re-election? He WON the vote. If the Venezualans had wanted him gone he would be.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 4:36 pm ET)
                    1  
                    How clueless are you? DID Chavez change the constitution or did he put constitutional changes up for a vote? His first time he put WHOLESALE constitutional changes up for a vote. They failed. This time it was only term limits and it is just plain stupid to claim that CHAVEZ changed the constitution by putting the whole thing up for a vote WHICH IS A VALID WAY TO DO THIS IN VENEZUALA. In other words he COMPLIED with the political machinery and how things are done in Venezuala. It doesnt suprise me that you are attacking me FOR BEING RIGHT rather than Proud for LYING about what happened. It is the kind of guy you are. Was I supposed to just let that bit of disinformation go by because YOU dont like Chavez? Is that they way it should be done? If the guy is hated by conservatives than ANYTHING said about him negative whether it is true or not is fair game and if I challenge the MISINFORMATION then that is me doing something wrong? You are a sad joke.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by haywood jabuzoff (June 30, 2009 7:06 pm ET)
            1  
            Proudconservative allow me to also help you.

            Presidents of the United States are elected by the votes of the populace, not selected by the Supreme Court. Talk about legislating from bench.

            Chavez and Zeleya were democratically elected by the people of their countries. Having militaries remove elected leaders is antithetical to Democracy. Speaking of which, exactly what problem do you people on the right have with Democracy?

            Attempting an education from talk radio is not a propitious endeavor.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (July 01, 2009 10:21 am ET)
              1 2
              The Hondurain Supreme Court and Legislature were asking the military to do the police work in support of their own constitution.

              And presidents are elected by the electoral college in the US, dictated by a state's popular vote. The Supreme Court upheld the law by saying no more picking and choosing of which votes should be counted. They responded to the Constitution, held Flordia to the rule of law established by Floridians, but did not legislate a new law on their own.

              As a conservative, I believe in putting a premium on the individual and their right to vote. Government should work at their behest. Remember our founding was based on the ideal that our Creator had given all humans the same rights. These are not established by governments or kings, they exist aprioi for everyone, everywhere. The power of that conservative belief eventually freed the slaves and continues to feed the hopes of people throughout the world, like in Iran, Iraq and Honduras too.

              Zeleya was seeking his own power. Hugo continues to extend his grip on power and the Castro Brothers control the Cubans. Why would our president stand with them? And why would he not mettle in the hopes and aspirations of individual Iranian citizens?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (July 01, 2009 2:11 pm ET)
                1  
                As a conservative, I believe in putting a premium on the individual and their right to vote.

                Ha! Only as long as the individual is white, male, and a land owner.

                The power of that conservative belief eventually freed the slaves...

                Again, Ha!! You do realize that today Lincoln would be a democrat. And in revolutionary times Republicans would be the Tories.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by anotheramerican (July 01, 2009 2:18 pm ET)
                  2
                PC,

                It is funny to me that those so vocal are so strangely quiet in response to this post, (which, as I write this, is about 4 hours old,) and the post below by devhytes which was written last night at 5 pm.

                They pride themselves on slurs and casting aspersions, but to this point in the thread, they ignore the very real questions you put forth here.

                Why is that?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 3:08 pm ET)
                     
                  And you still think that MMfA is a real-time conversation board?
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 5:40 pm ET)
                     
                  They are answered. Did you think people live on this site? YOU pride yourself on spewing inane and worthless propaganda and apparantly on never having even a dim idea what you are talking about. Why is THAT? You used to try. Now you are nothing but a pathetic troll
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (July 01, 2009 2:59 pm ET)
                1  
                So you think that Obama should oppose someone just because of who they are? He should oppose Europe simply because Chavez and Castro share the same view as they do?
                Report Abuse
              • Author by congero6189599 (July 01, 2009 7:25 pm ET)
                   
                Your statements are outright lies and I direct you to the sources I quoted below!
                Report Abuse
              • Author by congero6189599 (July 01, 2009 8:08 pm ET)
                   
                "The Hondurain(sp)Supreme court and legislature were asking the military to do the police work in support of their own constitution..." ----Proudconservative. Where you get this pablum I don't know, but anyone so naive to think that a police force and military trained at the School of the America's are upholding Democracy is really sad. I point you to the articles i listed below and this article : Published on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 by The Nation
                Democracy Derailed in Honduras
                by Greg Grandin

                http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/30-11 . Your pathetic!
                Report Abuse
          • Author by tman418 (July 01, 2009 2:03 am ET)
            1  
            http://www.jewsonfirst.org/images/obama8.jpg
            http://www.summit.mccsc.edu/mlk2k6/Martin%20Luther%20King%20Jr.%20Pic.jpg
            http://www.sitelineaz.com/IT204/R.%20Boulet-Stephenson/Bush/dennis.jpg
            [http://givecongressback.com/images/fdr.jpg]
            http://snyders.ws/alan/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lbj-2.jpg

            That was actually kind of fun. Good idea POV.

            If you saw any news, Obama was not silent on Iran at all.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by tman418 (July 01, 2009 2:05 am ET)
              2 1
              Whoops.

              [http://www.jewsonfirst.org/images/obama8.jpg]
              [http://www.summit.mccsc.edu/mlk2k6/Martin%20Luther%20King%20Jr.%20Pic.jpg]
              [http://www.sitelineaz.com/IT204/R.%20Boulet-Stephenson/Bush/dennis.jpg]

              Then insert FDR.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (July 01, 2009 10:26 am ET)
                2
              A little less timely and assertive than with Zeleya, correct?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 01, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
                1  
                Could you please translate the above comment into cogent? I forgot to bring my Wingnut-English dictionary with me today, and the disjointed pap you present is hard to figure out today.

                Well, every day.
                Report Abuse
    • Author by devhyfes (June 30, 2009 5:06 pm ET)
         
      Democratically elected or not, Zelaya attempted an unconstitutional rewrite of his country's founding document. He was told "No" by the Supreme Court, Chief of his military and Congress. Instead of living by these legally binding decisions, he disobeyed the courts and the Congress, fired the leader of his military and ordered his troops in to forcibly seize the ballots for his referendum.

      If our respect for democratically elected officials means anything, then it must also respect the body of laws that keep those leaders in check. I don't know if Honduran law allows their Supreme Court to order the detention of their leader, but it is based on that legal technicality- not Zelaya's "democratically elected" status- that the propriety of these events should turn. If proper due process was followed in removing Zelaya (and given the court proceedings, it seems some sort of due process existed) then we should at the least be silent on the internal matters of this country, if not lauding their ability to preserve the rule of law.

      Personally, I think Obama's remarks were quite measured and not nearly as risible as his critics state. Nevertheless, I still think this was a perfect opportunity for Obama to say "We're watching closely" and leave it until the lawyers had a chance to argue for a bit before weighing in on either side.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 4:50 pm ET)
           
        There are times there are no white hats in a situation. This seems like one of those times. Yes Zelaya wanted to scrap the constitution which he claimed favored the elites. The military traditionally hands out the ballots and they refused. Zelayas term isnt even UP until January so any way you look at it this is a coup and military coups in Central America have a very bloody history. It looks bad all the way around and I dont know enough about the Honduran Constitution to say if Zelaya was acting within the confines of legal political machinery but howevery you look at it. A military coup replacing a leader six months before his term is up deserves some condemnation.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (July 01, 2009 6:36 pm ET)
             
          Solon I know enough about the School of the America's and it's graduates,which the leader of the Honduran coup is an alumni of. I find it hard to believe that a school that teaches it students how to combat trade union leaders, peasants fighting for land reform, clergy that administer to the people(Arch Bishop Romero and others)lead a coup in Chile and responsible for 30,000 disappeared in Argentina now stand on the side of the people. This was an antidemocratic coup by the military no way around it, the question is did they do it with if not the approval of our leaders at least a nod or wink! The School of the America's breeds these dictators.http://www.snagfilms.com/films/watch/father_roy_inside_the_school_of_assassins/. I'd also like people to read this article posted on commondreams.org here is the intro:Rebel Report Editor's Note: RebelReports is publishing this original article as a response to those who claim that the coup in Honduras was legal and/or constitutional and to the reporting by those media outlets that consistently repeat false characterizations of Honduran law and President Zelaya's actions.-JS

          the link to the rest of the article is here:http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/01-7
          Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (July 01, 2009 7:03 pm ET)
               
            I didnt know he was a graduate of the SOA. That is definitly not a good sign.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by congero6189599 (July 01, 2009 7:21 pm ET)
                 
              This is from an article by Amy Goodwin titled "Undo the Coup" :"...Two who know well the history of dictated U.S. terms are Dr. Juan Almendares, a medical doctor and award-winning human rights activist in Honduras, and the American clergyman Father Roy Bourgeois, a priest who for years has fought to close the U.S. Army's School of the Americas (SOA) at Fort Benning, Ga. Both men link the coup in Honduras to the SOA.

              The SOA, renamed in 2000 the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), is the U.S. military facility that trains Latin American soldiers. The SOA has trained more than 60,000 soldiers, many of whom have returned home and committed human rights abuses, torture, extrajudicial execution and massacres.

              Almendares, targeted by Honduran death squads and the military, has been the victim of that training. He talked to me from Tegucigalpa, the Honduran capital: "Most of this military have been trained by the School of America. ... They have been guardians of the multinational business from the United States or from other countries. ... The army in Honduras has links with very powerful people, very rich, wealthy people who keep the poverty in the country. We are occupied by your country."

              Born in Louisiana, Bourgeois became a Catholic priest in 1972. He worked in Bolivia and was forced out by the (SOA-trained) dictator Gen. Hugo Banzer. The assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the murders of four Catholic churchwomen in El Salvador in 1980 led him to protest where some of the killers were trained: Fort Benning's SOA. After six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her daughter were murdered in El Salvador in 1989, Bourgeois founded SOA Watch and has built an international movement to close the SOA.

              Honduran coup leader Vasquez attended the SOA in 1976 and 1984. Air Force Gen. Luis Javier Prince Suazo, who also participated in the coup, was trained at the SOA in 1996..."

              Report Abuse
    • Author by Romario (June 30, 2009 11:52 pm ET)
      3  
      So these same neocons who spend every minute on TV yeling about "democracy and freedom and rule of law" are now supporting of a military coup in Honduras? I'm confused.
      Report Abuse

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