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Conservative media ignore reality in invoking "rationing" bogeyman

July 24, 2009 2:25 pm ET

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SUMMARY: Reading from GOP playbooks, media conservatives are invoking the specter of "rationing" in arguing against health care reform  efforts.

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As The Washington Times observed on July 13, "In political combat, there are few more potent weapons than a single word or a catchy phrase that can be used to target a proposal and drive it into the ground. For Republicans, 'rationing' could be that poison-tipped arrow for the Democratic-led health care bill." Indeed, in a memo titled, "The Language of Healthcare 2009: The 10 Rules for Stopping the 'Washington Takeover' of Healthcare," GOP consultant Frank Luntz encouraged Republicans to attack President Obama's health care plan by warning about the possibility of rationing. But these scare tactics deny the reality that Americans currently face: Insurance companies already ration care for financial reasons, and, in many cases, these companies keep patients from getting the medical treatments they need. Indeed, noting that rationing is currently done by insurance companies, proponents of health care reform argue, in the words of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, that they are seeking to "change that situation ... to make sure that it's really health care providers that make those choices in the future."

On the June 15 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, after host Chris Matthews reported that the "concern" is that "some day, we'll have a health care system whereby somebody in Washington will say, 'No, you can't get the transplant,' " Sebelius explained that rationing by insurance companies is currently "happening every day" and that supporters of health care reform are seeking to address the problem of insurance companies denying coverage for treatment or care that is medically indicated:

SEBELIUS: Well, you know, actually, what's interesting about that fear is that it goes on everyday. It's private insurers who often are telling their clients that, "No, you can't get this recommended treatment that the doctor has made"; "No, you can't get this drug"; "No, you're not going to be able to stay in the hospital an extra day"; "No, you're not going to get this because we're concerned about costs."

So, people who say that, "Oh, this is a terrible idea; this could happen someday in the future," it's happening every day. But it's really private insurance plans that are making those decisions. What we're hoping to do is change that situation. Private insurance companies should no longer be able to decide who gets health coverage and who doesn't, what kinds of benefits are available. And we want to make sure that it's really health care providers that make those choices in the future.

During her confirmation hearing on March 31, Sebelius testified that she saw rationing by "private insurers" on "a regular basis" while serving as Kansas' insurance commissioner. From the hearing (accessed via the Nexis database):

SEBELIUS: I can't tell you that I am not concerned about, ultimately, not with comparative effectiveness research, but ultimately reaching a point where, in order to control costs, there is some effort to ration health care.

I, frankly, as insurance commissioner, where I served for eight years, saw it on a regular basis by private insurers, who often made decisions overruling suggestions that doctors would make for their patients, that they weren't going to be covered. And a lot of what we did in the office of the Kansas Insurance Department was go to bat on behalf of those patients to make sure that the benefits that they had actually paid for were, in fact, ones that were delivered.

Additionally, Sebelius said in May 6 testimony before the House Ways and Means Committee that another aim of health care reform is to "end barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions." She continued: "In Kansas and across the country, I have heard painful stories from families who have been denied basic care or offered insurance at astronomical rates because of a pre-existing condition. Insurance companies should no longer have the right to pick and choose. We will not allow these companies to insure only the healthy and leave the sick to suffer."

Insurance companies acknowledge that they ration care

The insurance industry has readily admitted to using cost-benefit analyses in coverage decisions. For instance, during the July 15 edition of NPR's Morning Edition, WellPoint chief medical officer Dr. Sam Nussbaum told co-host Steve Inskeep that "where the private sector has been far more effective than government programs is in limiting clinical services to those that are best meeting the needs of patients." Moreover, while conservative media figures who oppose Obama's health care plan -- like Fox News contributor Dick Morris -- warn that the president would ration the use of imaging services such as MRIs and CAT scans, Nussbaum specifically pointed to the industry's effectiveness at reducing the use of those very services when they are "not necessary":

NUSSBAUM: When we look at advanced imaging, and these -- this is MRI, CAT scan, PET scans -- we know that as much as 30 percent of those procedures are not necessary. And we've been able, over the last several years, to have growth in imaging procedures of between 0 and 5 percent. The government, under CMS, has seen imaging grow 15 to 20 percent a year during the same time interval.

Wendell Potter, a former senior executive at CIGNA health insurance company, has detailed ways in which the insurance industry makes cost-based coverage decisions. In June 24 testimony before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, Potter urged the committee "to look very closely at the role for-profit insurance companies play in making our health care system both the most expensive and one of the most dysfunctional in the world." Later in his testimony, Potter discussed how "insurers routinely dump policyholders who are less profitable or who get sick" and "also dump small businesses whose employees' medical claims exceed what insurance underwriters expected":

To help meet Wall Street's relentless profit expectations, insurers routinely dump policyholders who are less profitable or who get sick. Insurers have several ways to cull the sick from their rolls. One is policy rescission. They look carefully to see if a sick policyholder may have omitted a minor illness, a pre-existing condition, when applying for coverage, and then they use that as justification to cancel the policy, even if the enrollee has never missed a premium payment. Asked directly about this practice just last week in the House Energy and Commerce Committee, executives of three of the nation's largest health insurers refused to end the practice of cancelling policies for sick enrollees. Why?

Because dumping a small number of enrollees can have a big effect on the bottom line. Ten percent of the population accounts for two-thirds of all health care spending. The Energy and Commerce Committee's investigation into three insurers found that they canceled the coverage of roughly 20,000 people in a five-year period, allowing the companies to avoid paying $300 million in claims.

They also dump small businesses whose employees' medical claims exceed what insurance underwriters expected. All it takes is one illness or accident among employees at a small business to prompt an insurance company to hike the next year's premiums so high that the employer has to cut benefits, shop for another carrier, or stop offering coverage altogether -- leaving workers uninsured. The practice is known in the industry as purging. The purging of less profitable accounts through intentionally unrealistic rate increases helps explain why the number of small businesses offering coverage to their employees has fallen from 61 percent to 38 percent since 1993, according to the National Small Business Association. Once an insurer purges a business, there are often no other viable choices in the health insurance market because of rampant industry consolidation.

Extent of rationing by insurance companies

As Potter explained, insurance companies restrict or deny coverage by rescinding health insurance policies on the grounds that people had undisclosed pre-existing conditions. On June 16, a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee held a hearing exploring this practice, with the stated goal of examining "the practice of 'post-claims underwriting,' which occurs when insurance companies cancel individual health insurance policies after providers submit claims for medical services rendered."

In conjunction with the hearing, the committee released a memorandum providing its findings about "problems with the individual health insurance market," detailing various methods by which insurance companies rescind coverage. It's conclusion that "the market for individual health insurance in the United States is fundamentally flawed" was based in part on a review of "approximately 116,000 pages of documents and interview[ing] numerous policyholders who had their coverage terminated, or 'rescinded,' after they became ill." The committee determined that three major American insurance companies rescinded 19,776 policies for over $300 million in savings over five years, as Potter noted in his testimony, and that even that number "significantly undercounts the total number of rescissions" by the companies:

The three insurance companies testifying at today's hearing reported to the Committee that they rescinded at least 19,776 policies from 2003 to 2007. This number significantly undercounts the total number of rescissions because one company, UnitedHealth, failed to provide data for 2003 and 2004, and another company, WellPoint, did not provide data from all of its subsidiaries.

The three companies also reported saving more than $300 million as a result of rescissions during this five year period. The specific amounts reported by the companies were:

WellPoint: $128.9 million

Assurant: $151.6 million

UnitedHealth: $18.7 million

According to documents provided by the companies, as well as first-hand accounts from individuals who obtained individual health insurance, it appears that insurance companies have taken advantage of the haphazard regulatory framework by engaging in a series of controversial practices involving rescissions.

Additionally, the memo noted that "[d]ocuments produced to the Committee indicate that at least one insurance company, WellPoint, has evaluated employee performance based on the amount of money its employees saved the company through retroactive rescissions of health insurance policies." The memo continued:

The Committee obtained an annual performance evaluation of the Director of Group Underwriting at WellPoint prepared on February 26, 2004. One objective this official was evaluated for was her ability to meet financial "targets" and improve financial "stability." Under "results achieved," the review stated that this official obtained "Retro savings of $9,835,564," indicating that she helped save the company nearly $10 million through rescissions. For this objective, the official was awarded a perfect "5" for "exceptional performance."

In a June 16 post on Time magazine's Swampland blog, National political correspondent Karen Tumulty detailed several of the personal stories about post-claims underwriting that were recounted during the hearing. Among them was the following:

In May, 2008, Robin Beaton, a retired registered nurse from Waxahachie, Texas, went to her dermatologist to be treated for acne. He mistakenly wrote down something on her chart that made it appear that she might have a pre-cancerous skin condition.

Not a big deal, right? It shouldn't have been, except that soon after that, she was diagnosed with something far more serious -- invasive and agressive breast cancer. Three days before she was scheduled for a double mastectomy, her insurance company, Blue Cross, called her and told her they were launching an investigation into the last five years of her health records. It turned out that dermatologist's note had been a red flag, and the company was looking for a way to cancel her policy on the grounds that she had been hiding a serious medical condition.

What Robin went through after that was a nightmare, one she tearfully described Tuesday morning in front of the House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight and investigations subcommittee. "The sad thing is, Blue Cross gladly took my high premiums, and the first time I filed a claim and was suspected of having cancer, they searched high and low for a reason to cancel me," said Robin, whose hair is just beginning to grow back in from chemotherapy.

De facto rationing due to cost

Some Americans find their health care "rationed" by their inability to afford it even if they have health insurance. After Fox News host Sean Hannity cited the case of a 55-year-old British man who fixed his tooth with superglue because he was unable to find a dentist whose services were covered by the National Health Service and he could not afford to pay for the procedure himself, Media Matters for America highlighted media reports of Americans gluing and extracting their own teeth due to the costs of dental care. For example, in a March 12 article, ABCNews.com reported:

The mortgage is due, the kids have needs, and the dental insurance doesn't cover a ninth of the cost of your dental work. At that point, applying superglue to your crowns didn't seem too unreasonable for [September] Williamson.

But, the superglue was just one of a whole set of tooth troubles. Unable to pay for more expensive treatments, Williamson said she's resorted to just pulling out the problem teeth.

[...]

Although the poor have always employed questionable home treatments, some health care workers have noticed a recent increase in desperate attempts by people to play doctor out of economic desperation.

The ABCNews.com article also quoted one health services expert saying that more and more people with health insurance are increasingly unable to afford other types of medical procedures:

"They'll pull rather than try to fix; that's a huge, huge issue," said Joan Whitaker, director of health services at the Action for Boston Community Development Center in Massachusetts.

While dental insurance rarely covers the cost of more expensive treatment, health insurance doesn't always cut it either, Whitaker said.

"Even if people have health insurance right now it doesn't mean that they have money for their co-payments," she said.

Whitaker works with many low income families in the Boston area. She said that recently time, rather than money can be an issue for patients.

"What's happening with a lot of people is they are putting off finding out about problems, because if they're in low paying jobs, and if they take time off they're afraid they won't have a job when they get back," she said. "They're out here working one or two jobs but they are still marginalized, because one thing could happen to them and they can lose it all."

Similarly, in a July 15 New York Times Magazine article, Peter Singer, professor of bioethics at Princeton University, wrote, "In the United States, most health care is privately financed, and so most rationing is by price." He continued:

Health care is a scarce resource, and all scarce resources are rationed in one way or another. In the United States, most health care is privately financed, and so most rationing is by price: you get what you, or your employer, can afford to insure you for. But our current system of employer-financed health insurance exists only because the federal government encouraged it by making the premiums tax deductible. That is, in effect, a more than $200 billion government subsidy for health care. In the public sector, primarily Medicare, Medicaid and hospital emergency rooms, health care is rationed by long waits, high patient copayment requirements, low payments to doctors that discourage some from serving public patients and limits on payments to hospitals.

[...]

Rationing health care means getting value for the billions we are spending by setting limits on which treatments should be paid for from the public purse. If we ration we won't be writing blank checks to pharmaceutical companies for their patented drugs, nor paying for whatever procedures doctors choose to recommend. When public funds subsidize health care or provide it directly, it is crazy not to try to get value for money. The debate over health care reform in the United States should start from the premise that some form of health care rationing is both inescapable and desirable. Then we can ask, What is the best way to do it?

Additionally, in a June 17 article, New York Times economic and business columnist David Leonhardt identified "three main ways that the health care system already imposes rationing on us":

[W]hen middle-class families complain about being stretched thin, they're really complaining about rationing. Our expensive, inefficient health care system is eating up money that could otherwise pay for a mortgage, a car, a vacation or college tuition.

The second kind of rationing involves the uninsured. The high cost of care means that some employers can't afford to offer health insurance and still pay a competitive wage. Those high costs mean that individuals can't buy insurance on their own.

The uninsured still receive some health care, obviously. But they get less care, and worse care, than they need. The Institute of Medicine has estimated that 18,000 people died in 2000 because they lacked insurance. By 2006, the number had risen to 22,000, according to the Urban Institute.

The final form of rationing is the one I describe near the beginning of this column: the failure to provide certain types of care, even to people with health insurance. Doctors are generally not paid to do the blocking and tackling of medicine: collaboration, probing conversations with patients, small steps that avoid medical errors. Many doctors still do such things, out of professional pride. But the full medical system doesn't do nearly enough.

Diagnosis: Fear-mongering

Conservatives warning of rationing resulting from health care reform include the following: 

  • On July 22, the Fox Nation linked to a New York Post op-ed about the American Medical Association's endorsement of House Democrats' health care bill under the headline: "Misguided American Medical Association Endorses Rationing."

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  • In her July 22 syndicated column, Michelle Malkin wrote: "Big Nanny Democrats want to ration health care for everyone in America -- except those who break our immigration laws."
  • On the July 21 edition of his Fox News program, Hannity referred to "government-managed coverage" as "rationing" while citing results from a July 9-12 Public Strategies Inc./Politico poll. While the poll found that 44 percent of respondents believe government-managed health care coverage would result in a higher price of health care in the United States, Hannity claimed that "44 percent of those polled said that rationing care would actually drive up the cost."
  • On the July 21 edition of Fox News' Your World, host Neil Cavuto asserted that when Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) wrote in a recent Newsweek op-ed that "[m]ost of these readmissions are unnecessary, but we don't reward hospitals and doctors for preventing them," Kennedy was "[m]ore or less saying, you know, we're going to be rationing things here."
  • On the June 27 edition of Fox News' Forbes on Fox, referring to Obama's remarks during the June 24 ABC health care forum, Forbes publisher Rich Karlgaard claimed: "[W]hat he's indicating is that government health care involves rationing. It's kind of funny that he let it slip out." As Media Matters noted, Obama was specifically referring to medical procedures that are "not making anybody's mom better" and "additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care."
  • On the June 15 edition of Fox News' Hannity, Fox News contributor Dick Morris claimed that one of the ways Obama can pay for health care reform is to "do what he's increasingly doing, which is to crack down on health care spending and have severe rationing."
  • On June 19, Hannity claimed that "we're going to have a government rationing body that tells women with breast cancer, 'You're dead.' "
  • On the June 10 edition of Hannity, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA), a Fox News contributor, asserted: "This is a big-spending, big-government, big-politician, big-bureaucracy administration. I am deeply opposed to Washington bureaucrats deciding whether or not to ration your health care or the health care of your loved ones. And I think that it's a fundamental choice for America."

From the July 21 edition of Fox News' Hannity:

HANNITY: The president's trying to fulfill key campaign promises on issues like health care and climate change, but dwindling public support may prevent him from doing so. A whopping 40 percent of Americans surveyed said that the president's health care proposal would actually make health care in this country worse, not better, and, similarly, 44 percent of those polled said that rationing care would actually drive up the cost. Only 27 percent think it would lower costs, while 29 percent said prices would stay about the same.

From the July 20 edition of Fox News' Your World with Neil Cavuto:

CAVUTO: All right. When even Ted Kennedy says -- and Ted's been doing this since before you were born, since before I was born -- and --

TARA DOWDELL (Democratic consultant): Thank you.

CAVUTO: -- says: "Most of these readmissions are unnecessary; we don't reward hospitals and doctors for preventing them." More or less saying, you know, we're going to be rationing things.

From the July 15 broadcast of NPR's Morning Edition:

INSKEEP: Next, we'll hear from a leading insurance company, one of many opposed to the so-called public option. That's the plan for a government health insurance program to compete with private insurance. We sat down with Dr. Sam Nussbaum, chief medical officer for WellPoint.

[begin audio clip]

INSKEEP: What's wrong with the public plan?

NUSSBAUM: Steve, we do not endorse a government-run health plan. We absolutely want to see universal coverage for all Americans. We believe the private sector can provide innovative solutions to health care.

INSKEEP: Dr. Nussbaum influences coverage received by WellPoint's 35 million customers. It is the country's largest health benefits firm. He argues that the private sector is more efficient than the government.

NUSSBAUM: Let me give one specific example, Steve, that I think will be informative. When we look at advanced imaging, and these -- this is MRI, CAT scan, PET scans -- we know that as much as 30 percent of those procedures are not necessary. And we've been able, over the last several years, to have growth in imaging procedures of between 0 and 5 percent. The government, under CMS, has seen imaging grow 15 to 20 percent a year during the same time interval. That's an example --

INSKEEP: You're talking about Medicare -- Medicare payments, the --

NUSSBAUM: Yes.

INSKEEP: -- Medicare program.

NUSSBAUM: The Medicare program. I'm talking about the use of imaging services and the cost of imaging services. So I would argue that where the private sector has been far more effective than government programs is in limiting clinical services to those that are best meeting the needs of patients. Important as Medicare is for coverage for Americans, it has not been effective in controlling cost, in integrating care, and bringing the advances in medical treatment to all Americans.

INSKEEP: There are people who would argue with you about the effectiveness of Medicare or the efficiency of Medicare. I'll take the point that you have a different perspective on that, but I would just ask if you're not undermining your own argument. If the government is lousy at providing efficient health care, why is a public health plan a threat to you? You'll just -- you'll just be more efficient than they are and make money.

[end audio clip]

From the June 10 edition of Hannity:

HANNITY: Starting tomorrow -- now the president yesterday talked about pay-go after he spent all the money. He talked about pay-go, and then he's going to talk about nationalizing health care -- ObamaCare. That big debate begins tomorrow.

That is not included in the pay-go, nor is the stimulus, nor is the omnibus, nor is the $3.6 trillion budget, So, it's really deceptive -- he's trying to create the impression he's conservative on fiscal matters, when, in fact, he's not.

GINGRICH: Look, Democrats only talk about pay-go when they want to raise taxes. Democrats only sound conservative when they want to raise taxes. This administration and its allies, with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid on Capitol Hill, are spending an extraordinary amount of money.

We have passed a trillion dollars in debt already this year. It's unending, and I think the fact is that they waive every rule they want to waive to fit them and then hide behind the rules to fit them. And we ought to just relax and ignore them.

This is a big-spending, big-government, big-politician, big-bureaucracy administration. I am deeply opposed to Washington bureaucrats deciding whether or not to ration your health care or the health care of your loved ones. And I think that it's a fundamental choice for America.

Do you really want to have your future and your life and your health in the hands of the Washington bureaucracy?

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    • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 2:35 pm ET)
      3 8
      It's not a boogeyman because nobody really knows. If the government runs the private insurance companies out of business because they won't be able to compete; and the government is faced with either raising a ton of money to pay for this, or cutting services and rationing care - how can anyone guarantee that won't happen? they can't.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (July 24, 2009 2:39 pm ET)
        7 2
        It IS a "boogeyman" because it's happening NOW with both CARE and with COVERAGE.

        The right hates this becasue it might cost some very rich people a little more than their paying now, and if we DO get a decetn HC system, the Republicans are doomed because NO ONE wil ever trust THEM with it.

        Screw 'em. I don't root for political parties the way I root for baseball teams. The Democrats want to benefit politically from solving problems. The Republican's want to profit personally by perpetuating them. To me the coice is clear.

        Conservtaives are convinced that the only problem facing this conutry is that rich people don't have enough money. As far as any REAL problems go: they got nothin'.

        Stop letting fear rule your day!
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 2:47 pm ET)
          2 5
          You act as though it's only rich people who have concerns here, you are reading to many MMfA deceptive headlines. It is not. Costs are a major component as well as quality. Many have heard of the horror stories from other countries on the delays in simple procedures and the wait time for surgeries, etc. These aren't fiction, they happen. So understandably people are worried. I don't listen to the rightwing nut talk show hosts on this issue, they just want Obama destroyed so their agenda is crystal clear. And I don't listen to koolaid drinking leftists either who want the govt. to be in charge of it all. Costs and care are real concerns, and before people buy into this thery are questions that deserve answers.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (July 24, 2009 3:24 pm ET)
            5 2
            Many have heard of the horror stories from other countries on the delays in simple procedures and the wait time for surgeries, etc. These aren't fiction, they happen.

            They happen every day IN THIS COUNTRY. Only it's becasue people put off treatment because they're not covered. So they end up in the emergency room, and in IC for several days, getting pumped full of exotic antibiotics and recieving round the clock care, costing 100's of 1000's of dollars, when they could have went to the doctor at the beginning [of the infection, in this case] and have been treated with a three-day course of $10 anti-biotics... if they'd been covered. Examples of this abound, every day, in every city in America.

            For the record I don't want "govt. to be in charge of it all." But I'll take the gov't - a non-profit entity who's goal is the best possible care, that public interest can influence directly - over a faceless corporation acting for their own profit as opposed to my well-being - something they can only do by DENIYING my claims and coverage - and over whom even the GOVERNMENT holds limited influence. (Just witness the struggle to get autism treatment covered - years in the making and so far only 6 states have it!)

            Under the system I'd envision, Insurance compnies would still have have a role in keeping costs down, but the Gov't would define the terms of coverage (everything, w/ no out of pocket expense) and pay for them (based on the # of persons they handle, and out of taxes collected in lieu of individual premiums) to negotiate the contracts and keep costs down. (The comapnies themselves would bid for new people to add to their pools, so that the young ablance out the old, and that would keep the premium paid by the gov't low.) Now that not's what Obama's proposing, but I still take his plan over the status quo.

            Rationing happens now. THAT is FACT. What on earth makes you think it will be worse if the governement impliments a program who's goal is to cover EVERYONE? How is covering EVERYONE more likely to RATION than the current system does? Universal Coverage will influence people's behavior [in exactly the way I laid out above] in such a way that costs come down from where they are now, naturally, even bofore any other changes are made. If you pay your med costs directly or if you buy insurance now, either way, you are already subsodizing everyone who doesn't or can't. That's a FACT. The cost of universal coverage will be the same or less than the cost of our current system, even before any changes are made. We're ALREADY paying for it. But not efficiently, not in a way that encorages the behavior we want, and too much of what we pay goes to the bottom line of compaines that don't even provide health care!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bhook93 (July 25, 2009 11:04 am ET)
                 
              43 year old uninsured man goes for 1 year after first noticing hoarseness in his voice before seeking care from a physician because he can not afford a preventive visit. Ends up with radical neck dissection and extensive chemotherapy and radiation treatment for treatment of cancer. He is unable to pay for any of this care, therefore tens of thousands of dollars are written off by the hospital.

              51 year old uninsured woman goes for over one year after starting to lose her vision before seeking care from a physician because she can not afford regular preventive care. Ends up with radical dissection of brain tumor and extensive radiation therapy, as well as treatment for complications resulting from subsequent chemotherapy that would require several hospitalizations. She is unable to pay for any of this care, there for tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of care are written off by the hospital.

              Countless patients ask of their physicians whether they can take there blood pressure or diabetes medication less often than prescribed because they lack insurance and are unable to afford even the cheapest generic medications.

              All of these individuals, and in many cases their partners, are employed, mostly full-time.

              In these cases, a small amount of preventive care can lead to less invasive and potentially less expensive treatment thus controlling a condition before it becomes critical. Properly applied preventive care also has the potential to significantly reduce costs through the secondary prevention of complications from high blood pressure, diabetes, and high cholesterol.

              Thoughtful rationing does not mean one with cancer does not receive required treatment. It means that everyone with high blood pressure or diabetes receives regular and timely preventive care to lower the risks of complications from those diseases. Applying this concept to a population would significantly reduce the financial burden of certain common and costly diseases (hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, type 2 diabetes) by accepting the costs of multiple office visits for everyone with these disease in trade for the expenses related to treating patients with renal failure, blindness, limb amputation, heart attacks, and strokes caused by poorly controlled chronic conditions.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by highliter (July 27, 2009 11:59 am ET)
                1
              MRI wait in Canada and UK is up to 6 months.

              United States MRI wait about 10 minutes.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (July 26, 2009 1:25 pm ET)
            3 1
            right on,the deceptions are coming from YOUR side,not ours.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by anotheramerican (July 24, 2009 2:55 pm ET)
        2 6
        right on,

        It is worse than that, by forcing everyone into their system, including the millions of illegals, the government is going to add 45 million or so more into the system. I've read that 14 million of them will be the poor who will not be able to afford the insurance.

        Just think medicare and medicaid, the largest single portion of our government's budget are already losing money. Adding more health costs into the system will have to be paid from somewhere. That somewhere is you and me. Why on earth anyone would want to turn over their healthcare to the government is beyond me.

        The CBO estimates it will cost an additional $1.6 trillion dollars to fund this debacle over 10 years. You can guess that is a conservative number, just like they underestimated medicaid and medicare by billions.

        The blog of the C.B.O. director, Douglas W. Elmendorf, taking into account new “gateways” for access to health insurance, says:

        According to our preliminary assessment, enacting the proposal would result in a net increase in federal budget deficits of about $1.0 trillion over the 2010-2019 period. When fully implemented, about 39 million individuals would obtain coverage through the new insurance exchanges. At the same time, the number of people who had coverage through an employer would decline by about 15 million (or roughly 10 percent), and coverage from other sources would fall by about 8 million, so the net decrease in the number of people uninsured would be about 16 million or 17 million.

        http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/cbo-releases-estimates-on-kennedy-dodd-health-care-bill/

        So when all is done there still would be about 16 or 17 million still uninsured!

        I think Ann Coulter said to just give the poor "health stamps for their health coverage" and leave the rest of us alone would save us billions.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 3:09 pm ET)
          2 5
          I know, all these cost estimates and reality check is being drowned out by MMfA and the left so the chants of rich evil conservative talk show hosts who make millions don't care about anyone else because they have health care. And those of us who are skeptical and want answers are just enablers of those mean rich people, or we should just move to an island where we aren't forced to support our fellow man. Liberals always think they can win arguments by putting emotion to the forefront, especially when the facts aren't in their favor.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 4:32 pm ET)
            4 3
            Except the facts ARE in our favor. For instance the FACT that without rationing every other industrial country in the WORLD pays less for their healthcare both per capita and as a percentage of the GDP. The FACT that 18,000 Americans DIE every year due to lack of access to healthcare. It is YOU with your fearmongering that is trying the emotional argument. There is no reason a more efficient healthcare system wouldnt cost less. How much of a hospitals staff does NOTHING but deal with insurance agencies? Private healthcare has between a 20 and 30 percent overhead. What about THOSE facts. You know you just SAYING things doesnt make them true and I dont know how you can talk about winning arguments anyway. Cons think they can win arguments by slurring the other side like claiming liberals think they can win arguments with emotion. It is clear that cons DONT Think they can win arguments with logic since they NEVER SHOW ANY
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 4:54 pm ET)
              3 6
              Keep ignoring the costs and the CBO and their facts, it doesn't make them go away.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 5:09 pm ET)
                6 1
                Things cost money especially transitions. This doesnt mean in the long run there wont be savings. Keep ignoring the FACT we pay more for insurance than any other country in the world, all of which have national healthcare plans and are 37th on the quality list. Keep ignoring the FACT that 18,000 Americans a year DIE from lack of access to healthcare. That is 6 9/11s per year and what did we pay to invade Iraq and Afghanistan? I think it is worth actual money to save those lives if you dont say so directly
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 5:22 pm ET)
                  2 7
                  Perhaps you are unaware but back in the 80's Congress passed Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. This requires emergency rooms to treat any person who shows up seeking medical treatment, regardless of their ability to pay. So it is a myth to say people don't have access to at least emergency medical care.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 5:48 pm ET)
                    8 2
                    What you mean is that WOULD be a myth IF I had said it. However that is NOT what I said. They have to stabalize you. If they need a transplant or ongoing treatment and cant afford it they DIE. That is a FACT. So no I was not unaware of that, did you really think I was? Have we met?

                    All this does is force us to pay for the staggeringly expensive end of life critical care treatment instead of the FAR less expensive preventative treatment which our medical industry is geared for.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by Tbone Slickens (July 27, 2009 10:47 am ET)
                  2 1
                  We're 37th on the WHO's list? They have turned out to be not so trustworthy with their facts. Who admit to 80% uncertainty in their data collection. Three of the five criteria WHO used were biased to nationalized, single payer systems. None of the five criteria took into account health outcomes like cancer and heart attack survival rates.
                  Bias in WHO reports

                  More WHO shenanigans

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 4:27 pm ET)
          5 1
          So to YOU it is a debacle to stop 18,000 people a year DYING from lack of access to healthcare. To end half of all bankrupcies being medical related though more than half of them HAD health insurance. Every industrial country in the world pays LESS for their healthcare yet we are 37th on the quality list. I dont like there being any remaining uninsured. I want a single payer system. Healthcare should be a right you have not a commodity you buy. Our healthcare system is broken because of GREED. Because healthcare providers maximize their profits with tricks to become healthcare deniers TO maximize their profits. A public option would at least be a step in the right direction because if the private agencies dont begin to provide proper and fair care they will go the way of the Dodo.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by anotheramerican (July 24, 2009 4:41 pm ET)
            2 6
            Solon,

            Do you know the criteria for the list you cite as the quality list? I've read where many of these downgrade the U.S. not for it's health care but because it does not have universal health coverage.

            Where do you get your statistic that 18,000 people a year are dying from lack of access to health care?

            Even if healthcare is right, it is not the government's role to pay for it. We have a right to free speech but it does not mean the government has to fund each of us a radio station. We have a right to freedom of religion, but the government does not pay for our churches. We have a right to freedom of the press, but the government does not pay for our newspapers. As you can see having a right is not the same as paying for it.

            I agree our health care system is in many ways broken. But it is not all broken. I've read that over 70% of Americans are happy with their healthcare. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater as Obama's plan would surely do

            If the problem is insurance companies denying coverage, then legislation should be addressed to fix that. Most insurance companies do a great job of providing coverage. It is a tried and used tactic of the left to create bogeymen when trying to enact socialized programs.

            And what about the 17 or so million who do not want health insurance and do not want to pay for it? What right do you, not to mention Obama, have - to force them to pay for something they do not want and levy fines if they do not sign up? Isn't that tyranny?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 5:17 pm ET)
              5 2
              Gee imagine that downgrading us because 18,000 people a year DIE from lack of access. How DARE they. That stat comes from a Harvard study I have linked to already at least a half a dozen times when we discuss this subject. If you havent seen it by now you are studiously avoiding it.

              It isnt up to YOU what is our governments responsibility. That is a democratic decision. I think it falls pretty clearly under providing for the general wellfare which in Article 1 of the constitution Congress has a right to levy taxes for or promoting the general wellfare in the preamble. If you are going to try to make the screechmonkey argument it is unconstitutional dont. It is ludicrous on the face of it.

              It is a tried tactic of the right to deny problems exist or minimize them to defend their policies of Randian social Darwinism. Let them eat cake and die quietly. This IS a problem it isnt the ONLY problem. Half of all bankrupcies are healthcare related and more than half of them had healthcare when their medical troubles began. Saying it SHOULD be addressed while dissing the way we are trying to address it is a cop out. How would YOU address it?

              No everyone has to pay for the common wellfare. What right did Eisenhower have to make everyone pay for a highway system? What right did Roosevelt have to make everyone pay for rural electrification. What right did Bush have to make everyone pay for the Iraq war? What right does any president have to make me pay for nuclear weapons. Those are democratic decisions. Once made everyone chips in that is how it works and it doesnt seem to bother you about programs you LIKE.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 5:27 pm ET)
                2 8
                What a ludicrous argument, that promoting the general welfare means health care is a guaranteed right, baloney. That is as nutty as arguing that it also means everybody has a right to welfare, which some have argued here. Well, let's keep going then, seems to me that promoting the general welfare would also include making sure everyone has a job. I want the government to guarantee I have a job. Or that I wear deodorant, that would fall under the category or general welfare too. Your argument is asinine.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 5:51 pm ET)
                  5 2
                  You dont read very well do you RO. I didnt say it was a gaurantee of healthcare. I said that made it a DEMOCRATIC DECISION. You do understand those words right? NOT YOURS nor AAs decision. A DEMOCRATIC decision. What I made clear was he shouldnt even TRY the argument it is unconstitutional for government to provide healthcare argument. You are a moron and your post was stupid and shows how little reading comprehension you have. Adult education, look into it
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:00 pm ET)
                    2 5
                    "I think it falls pretty clearly under providing for the general wellfare which in Article 1 of the constitution Congress has a right to levy taxes for or promoting the general wellfare in the preamble"

                    I responded to you and what you think. So my post made perfect sense, you just had no intelligent rebuttal so you insulted, which is what you always do when you can't make a point. Educate yourself.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 6:07 pm ET)
                      4 2
                      No it didnt. Where did I state as a FACT that it was a right under the constitution? NOWHERE. I DID however make it clear it was a DEMOCRATIC DECISION and give my opinion. Are you REALLY saying you cant tell the difference between those two things? I said DIRECTLY it was a democratic decision whichy were it a right it would NOT be. What part of this is to complicated for your simple Manichean black/white mindeset? Stop embrassing yourself by insulting ME by calling my argument assinine then snivelling like a PUNK that I insult you back. ITs pathetic. If you dont WANT insults tossed at YOU then leave them out of your posts to ME.

                      My mistake was I DID give you an intelligent rebuttal foolishly thinking you had any chance whatsoever of understanding it. I should know I have to dumb everything down to your level and hold your hand walking you through every point that would be obvious to any reasonably bright six year old. I already talk so far over your head it is almost impossible to communicate with you so any more education on my part and it would be like talking to my goldfish
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
                        2 5
                        What a cop out. First you said you thought it was a right, or it should be a democratic decisions or something. Now you're backing away from that after I brought up jobs, and even deodorant, because you had no rebuttal. Perhaps you'd better argue with your goldfish, you might make some headway and not get challenged to back up what you say you think.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 6:25 pm ET)
                          6 2
                          I DID have a rebuttal moron. YES I said it was a democratic decision. Like highways and wars and rural electrification. Has anyone in history ever said those things were rights? In fact how stupid ARE you that you dont GET that if it is a RIGHT then it WOULDNT be a democratic decision? Is freedom of religion a democratic decision? OF COURSE NOT. Why is this to complicated for you? You really are dumb as a post if you think you have challenged me in any way but yes I would probably do better arguing with my goldfish since he would have a better chance at comprehending the difference between a RIGHT and a DEMOCRATIC DECISION.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:29 pm ET)
                            2 7
                            Your infantile anger got the best of you my friend, if you had any coherent point to make you wouldn't be so invested in insults, the by-product of a whole lotta nuttin'. Don't go near your goldfish, you're likely to swallow him whole.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 6:34 pm ET)
                              6 2
                              I have no anger and it isnt my fault you are too stupid to understand my completely cogent argument and why are you still snivelling in a way that would embarass any little girl about MY insults after you called my argument assinine? Why is it you think that ONLY YOU should be able to insult me but if I return serve it is just sooooo mean of me? This is simple. Either explain how a right IS a democratic decision or admit you are a moron who never knows what you are talking about.

                              If my goldfish could type HE would spank you as badly as I have in this exchange and you would STILL be too stupid to recognize you were getting your butt handed to you.
                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by internet soldier (July 24, 2009 7:32 pm ET)
                              10 2
                              If Solon is annoyed, that is understandable. AA's post basically said government sponsored healthcare was unconstitional, and Solon pointed to the one the roles of congress listed in constitution (promoting the general welfare) to refute his non-sense that universal healthcare is unconstitional. You then proceeded to attack an argument Solon never made, which is that the "protecting the general welfare" clause of the constitution guarantees healthcare as a right. When he tried to point this out to you, you ignored what he said and pretended you were the victim. Anyways, you've yet to answer this very simple question; what is your solution to the health-care crisis? To leave things the way they are? Do you not know? It wont kill you to just give an answer.
                              Report Abuse
                    • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (July 26, 2009 1:36 pm ET)
                      3 1
                      righton,your posts make sense only to people like the rich,limbaugh and the rest of the RIGHT WING NUTJOBS. SOLON is making perfect sense in his arguments.
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by albertsenj (July 27, 2009 5:09 am ET)
              2 1
              I think your argument about 'who don't want health insurance and do not want to pay for it' is irrelevant here. How many millions are there who didn't want us to go into Iraq and, we still paid for that - and so will our children and their children.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by wulverine3923 (July 26, 2009 5:33 am ET)
          3 1
          to do as Ann Coulter suggests, ignores the problem. Yes it will placate some, and give the rich something on which to rest their hats, but in the end, it ignores the simple fact that half of all bankruptcies last year were caused by medical bills, Its a fact that we spend 2.5 times more for our healthcare than our next highest paying competitor. Its fact that insurance companies ration care to increase or protect profits. Its a fact that our birth rate and death rate are not where they should be for a country as advanced as ours..We are the only country without a public healthcare policy..its killing our economy, its killing our people..if the right has a better idea that will save money, and keep people alive..I"m willing to listen..but so far, I have not seen one idea come from the right that even remotely addresses these issues. People on the right complain about medicare and medicaid..maybe they oughta go read what the WHO says about both programs..or Nato, They all say the same thing..oh, and the federal government proves it when you look at the books. That Medicare and medicaid are two of the best run health agencies in the world, for every dollar spent, they have been one of the best returns for the money invested in all of our government. Whats sad to see, is so many people being taken in by the continued right wing mantra of "smaller government" (which they have NEVER given us) Better economics (again, they have never given us..and don't say Reagan, because he is not a shining example of anything to be quite honest. Quite the spokesman, not much of a president I'm afraid) You can talk about rationing, you can talk about lack of choice..but I'm here to tell you, that if we do not get a handle on our medical care costs in this country, it will bankrupt us. I say, go full universal, socialized medicine, tax it just like we do income, make it to where business doesn't have to supply it, and watch the economy start flowing again. I know its scary to think that the left may have come up with something that works..but then, they did it under Clinton (its why we ran a surplus..only one since Eisenhower kids.) Clinton may have been a lousy husband, but he was a pretty good president when it came to getting things turned around. Only thing holding Obama back from doing the same, is the conservatives.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (July 27, 2009 8:32 am ET)
          2 1
          It is worse than that, by forcing everyone into their system
          When you start off with a lie, don't expect the rest of your post to be taken seriously, either.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by shaggles (July 24, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
        5 1
        I doubt the private insurers would be driven out of business. Has the USPS driven UPS or FedEx out of business? Have state universities driven the Ivy League schools out of business? If by some chain of events the Feds became the only provider of health insurance they could easily cover the cost by collecting "premiums" in the form of taxes. Yes it would be a tax increase but judging by the health insurance costs in countries with universal care the increase would be more than offset by the fact that you are no longer paying premiums to a for profit insurer. Each of us would probably be paying much less. Now I admit the chances of our govt screwing something up are pretty good but it just seems insane to me to worry about the cost of govt run healthcare when it has been shown that every country that has it spends half what we do per person.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by oscar the grouch (July 24, 2009 6:29 pm ET)
          2 3
          USPS has not had much effect on UPS or FedEX, but unfortunately the reverse can not be said. Even with subsidies covering their one price fits all shipping, they (USPS) still requires yearly infusions from the General Revenues of the government. Unfortunately, the same will probably be said in a few years with any federal health insurance program. After all, Medicare will be out of dedicated funds within a decade or so, Social Security in a couple of decades or so. It has all the trappings of "oops, we underestimated the cost, taxes are going up, sorry, so sorry."
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:36 pm ET)
            2 6
            Bingo. The government always, always, underestimates the costs because they base their numbers on the rosiest of rosiest scenarios, and they always fall short. And it will be more government by apocolypse, just like it is now for nearly every issue, to scare the people into voting or supporting more tax hikes. It will be that with health care too, and that is what has many scared, and they should be.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 6:40 pm ET)
              5 2
              At least that is how it looks in YOUR crystal ball. Then again I remember all the prophets on the right telling me about Iraq and their track record is too pathetic for me to take any MORE of you guys predictions seriously.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:43 pm ET)
                2 5
                Thank you for introducing Iraq as a perfect example of how the government is the king of underestimators. And when the Republicans are in charge of everything someday like the Democrats are now, then what is your crystal ball going to tell you about their cost predictions. I mean look how they screwed up Iraq.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 6:45 pm ET)
                  3 2
                  Well my crystal ball on Iraq was pretty much 100%. The thing is. I am putting zero stock in your ability to tell the future so as an argument to me its worthless. Especially when put against the FACT that national healthcare plans work well in the rest of the industrial world
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:48 pm ET)
                    2 5
                    Maybe their governments are more competent than ours have proven to be when it comes to cost estimates, so you're comparing apples to oranges.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 7:06 pm ET)
                      5 2
                      No I am not. Healthcare problems are pretty much the same for each country. I dont understand you conservatives that say you love our country and just HATE our government. Our government has had a lot of money. They did a lot of gold plated spending and when it was on the military I didnt see many cons complain but if it was to help working people the screaming is deafening. You just SAYING they cant accomplish something like efficient healthcare doesnt make it true. We went to the moon when no one thought it could be done. We built the best most effective military in the history of the world but you somehow think Finnland, France, and Japan can manage a healthcare system but we cant. I dont see it.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by loonz (July 24, 2009 6:48 pm ET)
                  6 2
                  I really not concerned about costs. Americans need health care period.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 6:49 pm ET)
                    2 7
                    Wow, I mean wow. If you're not concerned about costs who is going to pay? Never mind, it's the rich. They will pay. Problem solved, yippee.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (July 24, 2009 6:52 pm ET)
                      3 2
                      You know me.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by loonz (July 24, 2009 6:55 pm ET)
                      6 2
                      Also, how much should we cap an American's life and health at?
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 7:11 pm ET)
                      5 2
                      Tell us how much an American life is worth. Give us a number so we dont annoy you with our constant reminder of the FACT this is a life and death issue till we get to that number. However remember that wars will be held to that same number. If we only lose a few thousand Americans to a terrorist attack then we cant start a war unless the savings of the dollars in life values are more than the war will cost.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by internet soldier (July 25, 2009 7:05 am ET)
                      5 1
                      Really, YOU are lecturing US about costs? You're the only one defending the status quo where this is the case:

                      Total health expenditures per capita, 2003

                      United States $5711
                      Australia $2886
                      Austria $2958
                      Belgium $3044
                      Canada $2998
                      Denmark $2743
                      Finland $2104
                      France $3048
                      Germany $2983
                      Iceland $3159
                      Ireland $2466
                      Italy $2314
                      Japan $2249
                      Luxembourg $4611
                      Netherlands $2909
                      Norway $3769
                      Sweden $2745
                      Switzerland $3847
                      United Kingdom $2317

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (July 26, 2009 1:44 pm ET)
              4 1
              right on all and people like you are doing is resorting to fearmongering nothing else.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by loonz (July 24, 2009 6:45 pm ET)
            4 2
            These federal programs are not in it to make a profit and you guys continually try to compare them to a for-profit corporation. The government gets money through taxes and before Reagan through tariffs. The government has to raise taxes [on the wealthy] or continually be in debt because they're not going to ration care.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by anotheramerican (July 24, 2009 3:04 pm ET)
      1 5
      Krauthammer makes a good point in his recent column.

      Why is it you do not see tort reform as part of this massive health care reform. Everyone knows that defensive medicine and extra tests and malpractice insurance costs raise the cost of health care by billions. All these expenses are added to the cost of health care because of million dollar lawsuits. (See John Edwards home.)

      If Obama were serious about health care reform, tort reform and capping of awards would be a part of it. But have you ever heard Obama mention it? Of course not.. Guess who are the leading contributors to the Democratic Party?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Conservative Dem (July 24, 2009 3:17 pm ET)
        2 7
        I would agree that tort reform should be part of this as frivilous lawsuits do drive up the cost of health care. Bottom line is in this country, we can do better than the "system" that is in place. Too many people aren't able to afford decent insurance. We're not talking about just poor people and this is certainly far from a race issue. This article is right on and I've been saying it all along. Health care is rationed right now by insurance companies and medical costs.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (July 24, 2009 3:19 pm ET)
        2 5
        It's a good point. Politics and who strokes whose back is always mixed up in the batter somewhere.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 4:23 pm ET)
          4 2
          True. Just ask Dick Cheney and Halliburton when thinking about IRAQ.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Tbone Slickens (July 27, 2009 11:26 am ET)
            1 1
            Who other than Halliburton had the infrastructure to support the mission?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by highliter (July 27, 2009 11:56 am ET)
              1 1
              They won’t answer that, or will they accept the fact that Pres Clinton also used Halliburton.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 4:23 pm ET)
        4 2
        Its always about tort reform for the right. First it only adds less than one half of one percent to healthcare costs second you guys are always trying to protect the powerful at the cost of the weak. If someone is damaged due to a blunder they should be able to seek compensation comensurate to their harm. The courts are one of the few places those without power can make an argument on equal ground to those WITH power which is why the rightwing is always on about ending THAT.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by anotheramerican (July 24, 2009 4:55 pm ET)
          2 4
          Can you provide me with where you got your 0.5% figure? Does that figure in the indirect costs of defensive medicine and excess tests? Does it figure in malpractice awards. I've read where some obstetricians pay 25% of their revenue just for malpractice insurance.

          Something is not adding up.

          I don't argue that there should be remedies for malpractice, but John Edwards making $50 million or so on bogus science by appealing to sympathetic juries and "channeling dead babies" shows the system is out of control. He is one lawyer in one state. Can you imagine if you add it up over 50 states? Oh I know not all make the millions Edwards did, but a lot do.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by anotheramerican (July 24, 2009 4:56 pm ET)
            2 4
            oops. "excess tests" should read "excessive tests".
            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 5:25 pm ET)
            4 1
            The study I read said .46% I cant find it but here

            http://www.factcheck.org/president_uses_dubious_statistics_on_costs_of.html

            Those claims rest mainly on a single 1996 study by two Stanford economists who said caps on damage awards could hold down overall medical costs by 5% to 9%. They studied heart patients who were hospitalized, compared costs in states with and without limits on malpractice lawsuits, and then projected their findings to the entire health-care system.

            But both the GAO and the CBO now question their sweeping conclusion. When the CBO attempted to duplicate the Stanford economists’ methods for other types of ailments they found found “no evidence that restrictions on tort liability reduce medical spending.”

            “In short, the evidence available to date does not make a strong case that restricting malpractice liability would have a significant effect, either positive or negative, on economic efficiency, ” the CBO said.

            I will dismiss the defensive medicine claim since how can you show that the threat of lawsuits dont also LOWER costs by making doctors more careful? You cant so lets just say those two cancel each other out. That isnt a big cots anyway according to factcheck the claim it was came from one study they have reason to dispute
            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (July 24, 2009 7:27 pm ET)
              4  
              My uncle had a camper installed by a large corporate car company. They messed it up and it killed two of his sons. The third was left with permanent brain damage. He never learned to read above an 6th grade level. For the two dead sons he got 250,000 dollars and the son with permanent brain damage he got 110,000. That was tort reform caps in Colorado.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by internet soldier (July 25, 2009 6:51 am ET)
            4 1
            AA, you don't know anything Edward's lawsuits do you? I do, and I challenge to describe any one of them.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (July 24, 2009 6:51 pm ET)
        4 1
        So we should put a cap on an injury or death caused by a doctor? The way to lower costs due to malpractice lawsuits is for doctors not to make mistakes.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by dmhack (July 24, 2009 8:29 pm ET)
        5 1
        AA
        "Krauthammer makes a good point..."

        Funniest opening line to a post---ever!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by JohnGalt (July 24, 2009 3:42 pm ET)
         
      Just read pages 881 and 882 of the proposed House Bill, it clearly specifies preferences for care and medical schools..JE
      Report Abuse
    • Author by DAWUSS (July 24, 2009 3:46 pm ET)
      2  
      Our current health care system already has rationing. It's based on dollar amount.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by netsez00565 (July 24, 2009 6:06 pm ET)
      2 2
      It isn't the Republicans you need to worry about.

      Blue Dogs Bark: We Were "Lied" To By Democratic Leaders

      http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-healthcare-talks-break-down-in-anger-2009-07-24.html

      Nice!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by egb (July 25, 2009 1:21 am ET)
      1 3
      RE: Rationing, Sebelius said:

      "... and a lot of what we did in the office of the Kansas Insurance
      Department was go to bat on behalf of those patients to make sure that
      the benefits that they had actually paid for were, in fact, ones that
      were delivered."

      If the government takes over health care, who will go to bat for us when
      the government says you can't have a hip replacement? Will I get a
      contract when I'm 20 telling me what is covered so, after 60 years of
      almost no health problems, at 80 I can get my hip replacement? If that
      happens what about all the diseases and cures the develop during my 60
      years of employment -- how do they fit into the contract?

      Today, insurance companies tell you up front what is covered. Does the
      Health bill? No. There is no mention of anything specific that is or is
      not covered. No one would sign on to such an insurance plan without
      knowing what is covered. In fact, I believe this "insurance plan" to be
      illegal in most states.

      It sounds to me like Obama believes that hip replacements are not
      economical after a certain age. That would mean I could not get out of
      the program what I paid into it -- or in other words, it is another
      income distribution scheme. This income redistribution scheme
      redistributes more than just money -- it redistributes my health to
      other people.

      Health reform should focus on getting health care to those
      who cannot afford it. It should not focus on having the government
      become a giant insurance company with all of the overhead that would
      involve.

      Free clinics can address almost all health care access problems and
      they would be a whole lot cheaper than $100B/yr.


      Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (July 25, 2009 4:54 am ET)
        4 1
        It sounds to me like you just make things up you WISH were true. Then snivel about them as if they WERE true. There is no reason a hip replacement would be denied. I know of no other country that denies them based on age. Do you get a hip replacement NOW if you cant afford it? Why no you dont. It redistributes your health to others may possibly be the stupidest thing ever said in the English language so thanks for the laugh its all your post was good for
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (July 26, 2009 11:58 am ET)
          2  
          solon I don't understand egb comments either? Very curious to propose a bunch of free clinics to take of the poor rather than the government I guess is what it boils down to?!?!? How that would cover the 47 million uninsured I don't know, neither does he I would guess. Healthcare for profit to me is a malignant contradiction. I found this article on commondreams.org from an CIGNA executive who later resigned and became a whistleblower agains the tactics of the insurance industry here is a quote from the article with a link to the article for those interested: "...For Potter it was a dreadful realisation that healthcare in America had failed millions of poor, sick people and that he, and the industry he worked for, did not care about the human cost of their relentless search for profits. "It was over-powering. It was just more than I could possibly have imagined could be happening in America," he told the Observer

          Potter resigned shortly afterwards. Last month he testified in Congress, becoming one of the few industry executives to admit that what its critics say is true: healthcare insurance firms push up costs, buy politicians and refuse to pay out when many patients actually get sick. In chilling words he told a Senate committee: "I worked as a senior executive at health insurance companies and I saw how they confuse their customers and dump the sick: all so they can satisfy their Wall Street investors..." http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/07/26-2

          Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (July 25, 2009 10:29 am ET)
        3  
        We already have Medicaid, Medicare, the VA, SCHIP. Can you give an example from reality?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by wulverine3923 (July 26, 2009 5:48 am ET)
        3 1
        dont' know if you've noticed it or not..but at the rate healthcare is going..NO ONE will be able to afford it. Premiums for my wife and I, in our 40's, non-smoker, healthy lifestyle, are near 650 a month! Never had an operation, never been sick enough to require a hospital stay..and 650??? wtf!!!?? Ridiculous. Blame tort Reform of the lack of it, blame anyone except where the blame squarely lands..FOR PROFIT INSURANCE COMPANIES COVERING THEIR COLLECTIVE BUTTS, order extra tests, don't pay ration healthcare based on monetary cost..yeah, this is a good argument to leave the system in place..how can any American, liberal, or conservative look at what we have and be afraid to try something new..man..stop drinking the kool-aid..its high time we tried something different, the current system isn't working, and is nothing but a funnel for cash from everyone, including the government into insurance companies pockets. Insurance companies that sometimes don't pay, ration your care, and try to deny coverage after they've accepted your premiums..You on the right..quit being wimps..time to try something different..the current system costs too much, delivers too little..first time I've heard you guys whine about saving a buck! Gessh..stop drinking the damn kool-aid
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    • Author by albertsenj (July 27, 2009 5:29 am ET)
      1  
      Unless the doctors we currently have just disappear or go into another line of work, we will still have enough medical providers to ensure that we won't have long waits to get in to be seen.

      As for the cost - if we go to an 'all-government' plan, the businesses currently paying for their employees' coverage won't have to any longer. This will have the added benefit of increasing the liquidity of 'labor capital' - workers will be able to change jobs w/o worrying about losing coverage AND businesses will be able to add workers w/o incurring the additional expense of insuring them.

      Of course, the government will gain SOME money as the $200 billion they are currently allowing businesses to write off for health care will come in. (that's would be $2 TRILLION over ten years).

      Of course, getting the insurance companies out would also eliminate the 15 - 30% they add to the costs for their 'take'. Once again - don't tell me about saving jobs here, staying out of health care to protect insurance company profits and jobs is welfare - plain and simple.

      The plain truth is what we have now is a dysfunctional system of 'sickness insurance' - there are no incentives for managing things to keep the patients healthy. What Kennedy was talking about wasn't rationing - it was eliminating the need to readmit someone who wasn't 'healed' the first time and has to go back in again.
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    • Author by justjoe628 (July 27, 2009 11:29 am ET)
         
      Why is it "fear-mongering" when conservatives say things like rationing and not fear-mongering when the libs call it a "crisis." Sounds like a typical lib double standard. There are far more facts that point to rationing than crisis. We've heard lots of stories, anecdotal as they may be, throughout this debate, of people being denied care in both England and Canada because it would cost too much. When there is only a certain amount of money in the pot, you may have to "ration" it to make sure you don't spend it all until the next budget year. Oh yeah, but this is Washington. They can just print more money. They don't have to stick to a budget like a private insurance company would. So I guess that blows the whole rationing theory. We'll just go into more debt and everyone will have healthcare and we'll all live happily ever after in the liberal utopian society where the government provides me with all my need and I take no personal responsibility for anything. Won't it be wonderful.
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