Beck, Limbaugh fomenting fear about H1N1 vaccine
In recent days, both Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have suggested that the H1N1 flu vaccine may be unsafe and questioned the Obama administration's recommendation that Americans get vaccinated, with Limbaugh asserting that "[y]ou'll be healthier" if you don't believe what the government says and Beck suggesting that the vaccine may be "deadly." However, health experts have repeatedly stated that the vaccine is a safe and necessary tool to combat the virus, and that, in CDC chief Thomas Frieden's words, "This flu vaccine is made as flu vaccine is made each year, by the same companies, in the same production facilities, with the same procedures, with the same safety safeguards" and "[t]hat enables us to have a high degree of confidence in the safety of the vaccine."
Beck, Limbaugh raise questions about vaccine that experts say is safe and necessary
Beck: Vaccine may turn out to be "deadly." On the September 30 edition of his radio show, Beck said: "I am not willing to go on the air with anything because one thing that you get wrong on this and it -- it can lead to a lot of death one way or another, you know? If you say, 'Don't take the swine flu vaccination,' and then it turns out that the swine flu this particular wave is virulent and the vaccination would have helped, well then, you know, what role did I play in that? The opposite is true; I say, 'Everybody take the vaccination,' and that turns out to be deadly, what role did I play in that? I'm just not willing to do that." [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/30/09]
Beck: "I'd do the exact opposite of what the Homeland Security says." During the same show, Beck said: "If somebody had the swine flu right now, I would have them cough on me. I'd do the exact opposite of what the Homeland Security says." When his producer responded, "But this is what I think. You're coming from such a skeptic viewpoint there. You're saying, you'd do the exact opposite of what Homeland Security tells you to do," Beck replied, "Only because I believe in -- in -- you know, I think this thing is going to mutate. It hasn't mutated yet. So I'd rather have it now, just like in 1916. Those who got the flu in 1916 were the ones that survived 1918. So I'd rather have it now. I mean, here's my vaccination. Hey, everybody, it's a swine flu chicken pox party. Seriously." [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/30/09]
Beck: "You don't know if this is gonna cause neurological damage like it did in the 1970s." Beck also said on the radio: "Are you taking the shot based on what you know now, are you taking the shot, and are you giving that shot to your kids? You don't know if this is gonna cause neurological damage like it did in the 1970s. You don't know if it's going to make things worse or if it's going to make things better. You just have to make the decision today." [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/30/09]
Limbaugh: "You'll be healthier" if you don't listen to the government. Limbaugh stated on his nationally syndicated radio program, "I'm not seeing these mass deaths from the swine flu. ... All I see is a bunch of typical government panic and hype." He added, "Who put the notion that you gotta have this shot, or this nasal spray -- whatever the hell the vaccine is -- whoever the hell put in your head the notion that you gotta do it? Government did. The Obama government, to be specific. It is one of my fervent objectives and goals ... to convince as many people as possible that the damn government is not God, and nobody in it even comes close to being as competent as you are to run your life. And yet, 'Oh my God, the government report says ...' The next time you hear 'The government says...' don't believe it. You'll be healthier, trust me." [The Rush Limbaugh Show, 10/7/09]
Limbaugh: "Screw you, Ms. Sebelius! I am not going to take it, precisely because you're now telling me I must." Limbaugh stated in response to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius' call for widespread use of the vaccination, "Screw you, Ms. Sebelius! I am not going to take it, precisely because you're now telling me I must. It's not your role, it's not your responsibility, and you do not have that power. I don't want to take your vaccine. I don't get flu shots." Limbaugh later added, "I'm just like -- I'm a contrarian, I'm a non-conformist -- you have some idiot government official demanding, telling me I must take this vaccine. I'll never take it." [The Rush Limbaugh Show, 10/7/09]
Beck cultivating fears about forced vaccinations
Beck suggests government will say "everybody" has to take the flu shot, may "line up" people to get mandatory flu shot. After Beck's radio producer, known on-air as Stu, said of the H1N1 vaccine, "if we drew the line at, hey we've never done this to a human body before, we wouldn't have a lot of our current cures," Beck responded, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we've never said, 'Hey, we're going to try something out, and you have to do it. Everybody.' " Beck later said: "So now here's the question. Just based on what you know, would you line up now? Because the government -- let's say the government came in and said, 'OK, everybody, you've gotta line up and everybody has to have their shot. Otherwise, you ain't going anywhere.' " [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/30/09]
Beck: "U.S. out of my bloodstream." Beck also said: "But that's what happened last time, real neurological damage. Now we have -- we've come quantum leaps ahead from the 1970s medically, but gosh, I just don't -- I mean, you know, you don't get any more personal. I mean, U.S. out of my uterus. How about the U.S. out of my bloodstream? You know?" [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/30/09]
Beck: "If government says it's OK," why are health care workers protesting mandated vaccinations? Beck stated on his Fox News program, "The government has told us -- and this is something that I would have never questioned two years ago -- the government will tell you now that you need to have the swine flu vaccination. Great. OK. Well, doctors first. In New York, they have made it mandatory for health care workers, because they can't be sick. They got to be in giving you a shot." He continued, "Well, in Albany today, this is happening. Health care workers are protesting being forced into getting the shot. Well, why? If the government says it's OK, why would that happen? Who do we believe? The doctors and the nurses who say, 'Wait, you ain't giving it to me,' or the government that says everybody has to have it?" [Glenn Beck, 9/29/09]
Beck: Massachusetts Senate bill "could be paving the way for forced vaccinations." Beck stated, "Now, we turn to Massachusetts. There is a bill that passed the Senate unanimously that could be paving the way for forced vaccinations due to the H1N1 pandemic emergency. The Senate's Pandemic Response Bill 2028 would allow the public health commissioner in a public health emergency to close or evacuate buildings, enter your house for an investigation without a warrant and quarantine you in your house." He added, "Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure this violates the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment. I've got five of them, and that's just right off the top of my head." [Glenn Beck, 8/31/09]
Beck: People rejecting vaccines because they don't trust the government. Beck stated on his radio show that people are refusing the vaccination because "people just feel in their gut, 'I don't trust these people any more.' But when you -- when you say, 'I don't trust these people to the point of, you know, I think they're weasels. I think they're --' Now you're talking about, 'I don't trust them to not put something very, very bad and inject people with.' That's in a different category. That's -- that's -- that's into the realm of 'c'mon, really?' " He also stated that the attitude toward vaccinations "is a stock market, really, for how much we trust the government," noting that "there's nothing that's come out about the swine flu vaccinations that necessarily is bad, any credible thing that has come out that is bad." Beck later stated that "they think our government could be so incompetent that they don't have any clue as to what they're doing." [The Glenn Beck Program, 9/29/09]
Beck promoting October 8 special on vaccine
Beck: Shots "supposedly are safe ... we are gathering the best information available ... decide for yourself." In a promo for his October 8 special on the vaccine, Beck stated, "Does the H1N1 flu scare the heck out of you as much as it does me? The shots supposedly are safe for our kids, grandparents, and ourselves. We are gathering the best information available to present it to you and then decide for yourself." [Happening Now, 10/7/09]
Beck: "You need to decide as a dad and a mom." Teasing his October 8 show, Beck stated, "You don't want to miss Thursday's show. The vaccine -- do you get it or not? Everything you should know on both sides of the argument on the H1N1 vaccine. I'm going to decide as a dad. You need to decide as a dad and a mom as well. Everything you need to know. I believe it's on Thursday, right? Don't miss it." [Glenn Beck, 10/6/09]
Beck: "This is for every American to ask themselves: Am I going to give this injection to my children?" Beck said, "On Thursday, I want to you join me for a special show, an hour- long special on the swine flu. I'm not going to give you my opinion on the swine flu. I don't think anybody but your doctor should give their opinion on the swine flu. This is for every American to ask themselves: Am I going to give this injection to my children?" He added, "We're going to have a half-hour of those who say absolutely not -- medical doctors. And then the second half is, are you crazy? You must. You decide. That will be a special hour Thursday. Honest questions I don't think are going to be asked or answered anyplace else." [Glenn Beck, 10/5/09]
Health experts say H1N1 vaccine is safe and important
CDC chief: "[W]e have cut no corners" in production of H1N1 vaccine. In an October 6 press conference, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention chief Thomas Frieden reportedly said, "With the production of this strain [of vaccine], we have cut no corners. ... This flu vaccine is made as flu vaccine is made each year, by the same companies, in the same production facilities, with the same procedures, with the same safety safeguards." Frieden added, "We have had hundreds of millions of people vaccinated against flu with flu vaccine made in this way. That enables us to have a high degree of confidence in the safety of the vaccine." [HealthDay, 10/6/09]
NIH vaccine clinical trial revealed no significant side effects. The Washington Post reported: "In addition to studies conducted by the vaccine manufacturers, the National Institutes of Health sponsored several clinical trials of the vaccine involving more than 4,600 people, including children and pregnant women. Although the tests were designed primarily to determine the vaccine's effectiveness and the right dose, no side effects were detected other than soreness and redness where the shot was given, a common side effect of the seasonal flu vaccines." [The Washington Post, 10/4/09]
WHO recommends everyone "who has a chance to get vaccinated does get vaccinated." Reuters reported that "The World Health Organization (WHO) restated its confidence in the H1N1 flu vaccine on Tuesday, calling it the most important tool against the pandemic. Mild adverse side effects such as muscle cramps or headache are to be expected in some cases, but everyone who has access to the vaccine should be inoculated, it said." Reuters further quoted WHO spokesman Gregory Hartl's statement that "[i]t is important to remember that the vaccines, which have already been approved, have been used for years and years and years in their seasonal vaccine formulation and have been shown to be among the safest vaccines that exist" and that "[w]e would hope that everyone who has a chance to get vaccinated does get vaccinated." [Reuters, 10/6/09]
Andrew Pekosz of John Hopkins: "All the data ... indicate it is just as safe" as seasonal flu shot. Pekosz, associate professor of molecular microbiology and immunology at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health, told The Washington Post that "[a]ll the data from the ongoing clinical trials of the 2009 H1N1 vaccine indicate it is just as safe as the regular seasonal flu. This was expected, since the 2009 H1N1 vaccine is made in exactly the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine." [The Washington Post, 9/29/09]
HHS secretary: "This is definitely is a safe vaccine for people to get." Kathleen Sebelius stated of the H1N1 vaccine, "[T]he adverse effects are minimal. ...We know it's safe and secure. ... This is definitely is a safe vaccine for people to get," according to the Associated Press. [AP, 10/7/09]
John Bartlett: Vaccine is "1,000 times safer than getting the flu." USA Today quoted Bartlett, the director of the Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, stating that the vaccine is "1,000 times safer than getting the flu." [USA Today, 10/1/09]
600 deaths, 9,000 hospitalizations in U.S. to date. According to HHS, which declared a public health emergency in response to the virus, "In the United States to date, more than 9,000 hospitalizations and nearly 600 deaths associated with 2009 H1N1 (Swine) flu viruses have been reported to CDC," and "The United States continues to report the largest number of H1N1 (Swine) flu cases of any country worldwide." [Pandemicflu.gov, Accessed 10/7/09]
Transcripts
From the October 7 edition of Fox News' Happening Now:
BECK: Does the H1N1 flu scare the heck out of you as much as it does me? The shots supposedly are safe for our kids, grandparents, and ourselves. We are gathering the best information available to present it to you and then decide for yourself.
From the October 6 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck:
BECK: You don't want to miss Thursday's show. The vaccine -- do you get it or not? Everything you should know on both sides of the argument on the H1N1 vaccine. I'm going to decide as a dad. You need to decide as a dad and a mom as well. Everything you need to know. I believe it's on Thursday, right? Don't miss it.
From the October 5 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck:
BECK: On Thursday, I want to you join me for a special show, an hour-long special on the swine flu. I'm not going to give you my opinion on the swine flu. I don't think anybody but your doctor should give their opinion on the swine flu. This is for every American to ask themselves: Am I going to give this injection to my children?
We're going to have a half hour of those who say absolutely not -- medical doctors. And then the second half is, are you crazy? You must. You decide. That will be a special hour Thursday. Honest questions I don't think are going to be asked or answered anyplace else.
From the September 29 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck:
BECK: Do you feel like I do? I think you do. We would all absolutely learn to do with less, learn to do with nothing, quite frankly -- sew our own clothes, you know, never get any new clothes, just can our own food, work out in the yard, take a bus to work if we needed to, just to have our kids to have the opportunity at the freedom to succeed and fail that this country has always offered its citizens.
But now, I would swear watching and reading the news that those weren't the prevailing ideas in America, and we're getting now to a place that we can't even believe our eyes or our ears if we're watching certain stations or reading certain pieces of the news. Let me give you a few examples here.
The government has told us -- and this is something that I would have never questioned two years ago -- the government will tell you now that you need to have the swine flu vaccination. Great. OK. Well, doctors first. In New York, they have made it mandatory for health care workers, because they can't be sick. They got to be in giving you a shot.
Well, in Albany today, this is happening. Health care workers are protesting being forced into getting the shot. Well, why? If the government says it's OK, why would that happen? Who do we believe? The doctors and the nurses who say, "Wait, you ain't giving it to me," or the government that says everybody has to have it?
From the August 31 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck:
BECK: Now, we turn to Massachusetts. There is a bill that passed the Senate unanimously that could be paving the way for forced vaccinations due to the H1N1 pandemic emergency. The Senate's Pandemic Response Bill 2028 would allow the public health commissioner in a public health emergency to close or evacuate buildings, enter your house for an investigation without a warrant and quarantine you in your house.
The measure would also require a registry for volunteers that would be activated in an emergency and establish fines of up to $1,000 for anybody who is not complying with the local public health orders.
Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure this violates the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment. I've got five of them, and that's just right off the top of my head.
From the October 7 edition of Premiere Radio Networks' The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: And now you got Kathleen Sebelius saying you must take the pig flu vaccine. You must take it. Screw you, Ms. Sebelius! I am not going to take it, precisely because you're now telling me I must. It's not your role, it's not your responsibility, and you do not have that power. I don't want to take your vaccine. I don't get flu shots.
[...]
LIMBAUGH: We are going to have all kinds of mess here with Sebelius saying you must take the pig flu vaccine. No, we don't. How are they gonna make me take it, Snerdley? Wait until they get control of my health care? That's not gonna happen 'til 2013. Sebelius is saying today you gotta take it. How are they gonna make me take it if I refuse to take it? What is this, "you must take it"? Who the hell do these people think they are? "You must take it"? You know, I'm just like -- I'm a contrarian, I'm a non-conformist -- you have some idiot government official demanding, telling me I must take this vaccine. I'll never take it.
[...]
LIMBAUGH: I'm not seeing these mass deaths from the swine flu -- I'm sorry, I really don't want to insult the pork business -- from the H1N1 virus. All I see is a bunch of typical government panic and hype. Remember the bird flu. Remember the monkey flu. Remember the pig flu of four years ago. Every year, there is some disease, some disaster, that's gonna wipe us all out, and the life expectancy keeps going up. I've never had a flu shot in my life anyway.
Approaching the threshold of what? What threshold am I approaching? The age threshold? Oh, is that right? The age threshold -- then why are they closing schools in panic? Why are they -- this one hits the young harder, huh? That's right. Another reason why -- then why are you even telling me about the age threshold? You know, I really can't relate. Even some of my own staff here are now warning me against my obstinance here.
Let me ask you a question. Who put the notion that you gotta have this shot, or this nasal spray -- whatever the hell the vaccine is -- whoever the hell put in your head the notion that you gotta do it? Government did. The Obama government, to be specific. It is one of my fervent objectives and goals that before I do move to New Zealand, start spending everything I have before they take it away from me, is to convince as many people as possible that the damn government is not God, and nobody in it even comes close to being as competent as you are to run your life. And yet, "Oh my God, the government report says ..." The next time you hear "The government says..." don't believe it. You'll be healthier, trust me.
From the September 29 edition of Premiere Radio Networks' The Glenn Beck Program:
BECK: As we told you last week, they are pushing daycare. They are pushing daycare. That way, they can control the money that goes into daycare, which means they can control the environment, and they can indoctrinate. This is -- this is -- you know, I said a while back at Christmas, you're not even -- now, I said this a year ago Christmas -- you're not even going to recognize this country. You won't even recognize it. Well, put yourself back into the place that you were last Christmas when I said that. Do you think you would -- if I told you last Christmas that these things would happen by September that already are going on, would you say that I was a kook? Of course you would. Of course you would. There's even more coming. By Christmas, you will not recognize it.
Think of what we have done to our country in a year. We have some -- we have some things happening in our country now that you have to decide. For instance, I don't know if you saw this show with the moms last Friday. Or we replayed it last night because President Obama interrupted for a speech at the G-20 on Friday, so they missed most of the program, so we played it again last night. Did you see the moms when they said, "I'm not going to vaccinate my kid for the swine flu? Not gonna do it."
PAT GRAY (contributing editor): How many?
BECK: None of them.
GRAY: How many of them? None of them?
BECK: Fifty, 55 of them. None of them.
GRAY: Wow.
BECK: Not one.
GRAY: And if they're forced, they said they wouldn't?
BECK: They said no way. When I said "what happens if the government says you have to do it?" It was just [unintelligible]. I mean, the body language of one of the mothers when I said, "How about -- what -- what happens -- are you going to vaccinate your child if the federal government says you have to have the flu vaccine for your child, what are you going to do?" One mother, she folded her arms and almost rolled up into a ball shaking her head no. I mean, her body language alone spoke volumes. Now, this is for something that everybody has to make their own decision on. But this should show -- do you remember when I said that the sales of guns is a stock market, really, for how much we trust the government? It's the same thing with the vaccinations. A year ago, 18 months ago, swine flu come around vaccinations, people would say "Oh yeah, I gotta get my kid vaccinated" or whatever. There -- there's -- there's nothing that's come out about the swine flu vaccinations that necessarily is bad, any credible thing that has come out that is bad. It hasn't been reported in a credible way. You disagree?
GRAY: In a -- in a credible way? No.
BECK: In a credible way.
GRAY: Nothing that we've verified --
BECK: Correct.
GRAY: -- or documented.
BECK: Nothing that we've documented. Nothing that we've -- but people now are already starting to say, "I don't trust this government enough. There's no way." That's amazing.
STEVE "STU" BURGUIERE (executive producer): Yeah, it shows general distrust of the government.
BECK: Not - not -- not general distrust. It shows generally there is a deep distrust.
BURGUIERE: Yeah. General, deep distrust and based on, you know -- I think it's interesting because it's not necessarily something that's coming from even like, you know --
BECK: No.
BURGUIERE: It's coming from a general place, where it's just like, this is not something that you normally would distrust from the government.
BECK: No.
BURGUIERE: I mean, you know, they tell you --
GRAY: No, you always get vaccines.
BURGUIERE: This is the sort of thing that I think government should actually do.
BECK: Yeah.
BURGUIERE: It's one of the few things that they should actually do --
BECK: I've talked to --
BURGUIERE: -- is talk about infectious disease.
BECK: I've talked to several doctors and several doctors have said, "Glenn, I distrust the government as much as you do. I think they're acting in a responsible way, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's nothing -- there's nothing that has happened here except people just feel in their gut, "I don't trust these people any more." But when you -- when you say, "I don't trust these people to the point of, you know, I think they're weasels. I think they're --" Now you're talking about, "I don't trust them to not put something very, very bad and inject people with." That's in a different category. That's -- that's -- that's into the realm of, "c'mon, really?"
BURGUIERE: And it's interesting, because I think that the hesitancy of some of these people is for sort of a -- based sort of general incompetence of, like, you would like think these people would try to react to a crisis and do so poorly and without regard to our personal safety. But I think there's another side of it, of just people just don't trust the -- they don't want anything to do with it. They don't want anything to do with being told to do anything. And, you know, I think that that's --
BECK: I think they want to say -- I think what's happening is they think our government could be so incompetent that they don't have any clue as to what they're doing.
GRAY: Might not even be nefarious.
BECK: Yeah.
GRAY: It's just that they're incompetent.
BECK: Right. But I wonder what the -- what the balance is of between that and it's nefarious. I mean, what is what do you think the balance is of those who say they're not gonna get the vaccine from incompetence to nefarious. What do you think it is, Stu?
BURGUIERE: I don't --
BECK: I mean, I think it's --
GRAY: Fifty-fifty, maybe?
BECK: Yeah. I think it might even lean -- it might even lean nefarious.
BURGUIERE: But nefarious, though, what is the case for that? I mean, the case is that --
BECK: No, nothing. That's the point.
BURGUIERE: Yeah.
BECK: Nothing.
BURGUIERE: Yeah.
BECK: Nothing.
BURGUIERE: And I don't think that's healthy.
BECK: No, it's -- no, it's not.
BURGUIERE: How do you distrust the government so much.
BECK: You know what? I have -- we're going to get to this in the next few days.
From the September 30 edition of The Glenn Beck Program:
BECK: You know, I want to -- I want to take a poll today. But I want to be very careful and, you know, we should have this discussion. I want to be very, very careful because I'm still doing my research on the swine flu and the vaccinations, and I have some things to share with you in the coming days that will boggle your mind, quite honestly, and boggle your mind that nobody in the mainstream media is -- is on this. But -- I mean, Stu, without -- hang on just a second. Without -- did you hear what I just said? Yeah, don't -- no, no, no, no. You know what I'm --
BURGUIERE: Oh, OK, you're saying -- gotcha.
BECK: I'm saying it off the air because I'm not ready to release this information.
BURGUIERE: The most cryptic radio program in history.
BECK: I'm sorry.
BURGUIERE: No, that's OK.
BECK: But I'm becoming more and more paranoid because --
BURGUIERE: You're kidding.
BECK: Yeah. Because I see how things work now.
[...]
BECK: But so far, I have not seen this government do anything other than -- well, other than what we're going to release next week. That's pretty spooky. But so far, I haven't seen this government do anything that is irrational. I think they're preparing exactly the right way. They're doing the right things so far, what I have seen. I think that they are moving in the right direction for a pandemic, which I believe is a possibility. I believed it during the George Bush days when everyone said, "Oh, he's only using that for fear." I believed it then. I believe it now.
BURGUIERE: Well, when you have stuff like the prairie dog fury around the corner, you have to make sure that --
BECK: You're not helpful. So -- so now, I look at what people are saying, and I would love to do a poll on the phones and get your reaction to, "Will you take the swine flu vaccination?" But I'm quite honestly nervous about doing it because I don't want a bunch of disinformation on the air. Because the swine flu is one of these things that we have to have the facts. The reason you haven't heard me talk about the swine flu at all is because I am not willing to go on the air with anything because one thing that you get wrong on this and it -- it can lead to a lot of death one way or another, you know? If you say, "Don't take the swine flu vaccination," and then it turns out that the swine flu this particular wave is virulent and the vaccination would have helped, well then, you know, what role did I play in that? The opposite is true; I say, "Everybody take the vaccination," and that turns out to be deadly, what role did I play in that? I'm just not willing to do that. This, I think, is a personal choice for your family and for your children. But I was amazed at what the mothers said on the swine flu last Friday when we had them on television. We had 50, 60 moms on. Not one of them said that they were going to have their kids take the swine flu shots. Not one.
BURGUIERE: Well, this is, I think, you know, it's one of those things that it -- this is why it's important to not be a corrupt government. Because --
BECK: Yes. Yes.
BURGUIERE: This may or may not be bad. We don't know. I mean, obviously, in the '70s, there was cases of the vaccine being very dangerous. We don't know what this one is yet. But the government doesn't trust you because of a long-term impression that you've driven into their heads that a) you're incompetent and b) you're corrupt.
BECK: So here's the thing. I -- I think the swine flu -- remember when we said that gun sales were the stock market on the government's stock? You know, as gun sales and bullets continue to fly off the shelf, it just means that we don't trust our government. I think another, you know, trade on that stock market of trust, if you will, is the swine flu. Here you have -- yesterday, there were these protesters in Albany. They were health care workers. Now the government is telling us that doctors have said, "Yup, the swine flu is great, and so we're going to require all of our health care workers to take it first, because they can't get sick." You had health care workers, not citizens, health care workers protesting yesterday at the -- at the state capitol saying, "I don't think so, Jack. You're not forcing -- you're not forcing me to take it."
BURGUIERE: Yeah. And that protest seemed to me to be more about the fact that "you can't tell me to do it" rather than "I don't want to take it." It's people saying, "Look, I -- it might be good, it might be bad, but you're not telling me I have to take it." I mean, that's them standing up for -- against the government in another way.
BECK: I just don't think the government has the right to inject you with anything by force. It just bothers me. Especially this one. You know -- well, I don't want to get into it yet. I mean, this is -- they're doing stuff to the -- the body that we've never done before with these vaccinations.
GRAY: Yes. Yeah, they kind of prepare your body for the --
BECK: They build a little highway in there.
BURGUIERE: And that could be good. I mean, it might be.
BECK: I know, and I've talked to some of the best experts, and they say it is. They say it is.
BURGUIERE: Might be, because if we drew the line at, hey we've never done this to a human body before, we wouldn't have a lot of our current cures.
BECK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we've never said, "Hey, we're going to try something out, and you have to do it. Everybody."
BURGUIERE: And I think that's --
BECK: Yeah.
BURGUIERE: -- what the real resistance is to this.
BECK: Yeah.
BURGUIERE: They don't -- people don't want to be forced to do something that they feel might be dangerous.
BECK: Right.
BURGUIERE: And that's a rational belief.
GRAY: And apparently, isn't there some worry, there's some concern about neurological damage or whatever and this --
BECK: Yeah, but --
GRAY: The -- the preparation shot supposedly helps that.
BECK: Yeah. But that's what happened last time, real neurological damage. Now, we have -- we've come quantum leaps ahead from the 1970s medically, but gosh, I just don't -- I mean, you know, you don't get any more personal. I mean, U.S. out of my uterus. How about the U.S. out of my bloodstream? You know?
GRAY: Yeah.
[...]
BECK: I do not want -- don't tell me things that you have heard in the news, et cetera, et cetera. You can -- you can tweet those things to me and we'll check them out. I don't want to spread disinformation on the swine flu, because I think we are dealing with a possible emergency that can change the country, can literally change the country. And this one is so important that I just don't want hearsay on the air. So, I'm only interested in hearing you -- you can call about other things, but I may ask you during the broadcast, you know, would you give your kids the shot. That's all I'm really interested in at this point. Where is this audience on the government forcing you to take a vaccination? Will you do it? Or will you say -- if they come to your house, do you know yet, Pat?
GRAY: Do I know what?
BECK: Have you made your decision yet?
GRAY: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BURGUIERE: Do you know enough about them? Because I don't know enough about the swine flu to make that decision yet. In fact, I feel like it's -- it's safe, and again, like I -- I'm generally a guy who's gonna trust doctors and I -- I'm not necessarily a medical skeptic. You know what I mean, like, the bottom line is, if I'm scared enough about the swine flu, I'm probably taking that thing.
BECK: I have made my decision, but I haven't made my decision with my wife yet, so in my head, I'm there, but I have to talk to my wife and we have to read carefully and pray on it together carefully before I'm ready to say I'm locked in.
BURGUIERE: Because if you've got --
BECK: But I'm on the road.
BURGUIERE: If you've got 20 million people in this country with the swine flu, you know, and you're -- you're like the people that are not getting it that have this vaccination. You know, I gotta -- you gotta -- you're gonna have a real tough sell.
BECK: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're not asking you if everyone has the vaccination and then people who aren't getting it, you know, are getting sick, and the people who had the vaccine -- then it's an easy decision.
BURGUIERE: Oh, is it though?
BECK: Oh, it absolutely -- if every -- Pat, if everybody was getting the vaccination, disregard what we have coming next week.
GRAY: It's hard to do.
BECK: Yeah. I know. If everyone was getting the vaccination, and they were fine, and those who didn't got sick, it would be an easy --
GRAY: Oh yeah, then it's a no-brainer.
BECK: Then it's a no-brainer. Of course I give it to my kids. Of course I give it to my kids.
BURGUIERE: Well, I guess we're just not to the point where we're ready to release the other information.
BECK: No.
BURGUIERE: So, I mean this is obviously -- because I think it's more than just -- just, you know, this -- it's the -- I think it combines with the sort of government distrust inside of this -- whether it's medically necessary or medically dangerous.
BECK: So now here's the question. Just based on what you know, would you line up now? Because the government -- let's say the government came in and said, "OK, everybody, you've gotta line up and everybody has to have their shot. Otherwise, you ain't going anywhere." Are you taking the shot -- based on what you know now, are you taking the shot, and are you giving that shot to your kids? You don't know if this is gonna cause neurological damage like it did in the 1970s. You don't know if it's going to make things worse or if it's going to make things better. You just have to make the decision today. Are you taking the shot, yes or no?
BURGUIERE: Because I --
BECK: No, no, no, that's a yes-or-no question.
BURGUIERE: Just to give -- I would say no.
BECK: You wouldn't do it.
BURGUIERE: No. But the reason -- I wanted to explain the reason. I know that the flu will come this year, and it will kill tens of thousands of people, and I never get a flu shot. The only time I would actually do something like this, and it's probably out of laziness, but it's just -- I never will go get a vaccination unless I would be really scared about it. So if I was actually petrified into doing it, I might do it. I probably would do it, if I thought there was actual danger, and there is a strong enough --
BECK: If somebody had --
BURGUIERE: -- case made, I'd probably do it.
BECK: If somebody had the swine flu right now, I would have them cough on me. I'd do the exact opposite of what the Homeland Security says. You know --
BURGUIERE: But this is what I think. You're coming from such a skeptic viewpoint there. You're saying, you'd do the exact opposite of what Homeland Security tells you to do.
BECK: Only because I believe in -- in -- you know, I think this thing is going to mutate. It hasn't mutated yet. So I'd rather have it now, just like in 1916. Those who got the flu in 1916 were the ones that survived 1918. So I'd rather have it now. I mean, here's my vaccination. Hey, everybody, it's a swine flu chicken pox party. Seriously.
BURGUIERE: I just think -- regardless of --
BECK: Wouldn't you?
BURGUIERE: But there's so many variables, though. You're getting a disease, whether you -- even if it comes and it's horrible, you might not get it, but there's so many variables between now and then, I don't know. I'm not willing to bet --
BECK: I'm getting the chicken pox.
BURGUIERE: -- on the mutation of a disease in advance.
Read a chapter of the well written David McCullough book about President John Adams and the yellow journalism of the period. The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were a pretty heavy handed remedy.
I thoroughly dislike what these people have purported to be journalism, but the problem can be remedied with educating advertisers, as MMFA has done. Businesses are in business, not politics.
What I can't understand is: why are the audiences satisfied with the sound bites. Aren't they curious? Don't they want to see the numbers, how many people had adverse reactions to the vaccine? Don't they want to get multiple opinions?
One could take the cynical view that their unvaccinated viewers will be future Darwin award nominees, a view that Beck must share since he's leading down the wrong path. Regardless of the pied piper's ignorance, we should do our best to educate people on fundamental health benefits of vaccination and good health practices.
And if the flu mutates, getting sick with a previous version of it won't protect from the mutated version!
If the flu mutates, the vaccinated people won't have any protection either.
I'm opposed to mandatory vaccinations. But I will also say that if I had children, I'd have a tough decision to make because I know H1N1 is harder on young people than older people. I don't envy parents. It's definitely an individual decision, I just hope everyone educates themselves as much as possible.
Some people would be better off being thrown from a vehicle in a car crash rather than being strapped in with seat belts and shoulder harnesses. Just because a few people might be able to say that they were better off since they had failed to put their seat belt on doesn't mean that it's a good idea to not wear a seat belt and have it on should you be involved in a car crash.
To give you another example, if I never get really sick, it would likely be better for me financially in the long run to just get paid more by my employer and then pay my own doctor's bills and pay for an occasional OTC product. But it'd be stupid to look at it as though I can count on my life going that way.
People like you, who have no personal memories of how bad it was when we had deadly diseases that were stopped by mass vaccinations and aren't willing to learn more about it are dangerous to the rest of us. Just because the swine flu might not be dangerous healthwise to you, it might be to the person who catches it from you when you're contagious.
For people who have reactions like you had, then you probably shouldn't have another flu shot, but for most people, your personal story isn't relevant at all. Overall, it's safer to get the flu shot than it is to leave yourself vulnerable to the flu. Individual anecdotal stories are not an appropriate basis upon which to make a decision.
However, mandated vaccines are a problem because they don't allow people to make their own choices. I was reading about Florida's mandate, there would be no exception for someone like me who had an adverse reaction with a prior vaccine. Apparently I am at much greater risk of developing Guillain Barre now that I've had a Guillain Barre-like reaction in Fall '08. I am not about to allow someone to force me to get another vaccine.
As far as H1N1 goes, you can't make the blanket comment that it's safer to get the flu shot than to get the flu. You might be able to say that for some parts of the population, but not all.
Btw, I quarantined myself for 6 days. I didn't have contact with a single person. And when I was well enough to work again, I was extremely cautious, far more than anyone else I know would have been. I was a viral dead end.
What's up with the "people like you" comment? People like me, who what? Want to acknowledge that the vaccine can be problematic for some people? Want to allow individuals to make their own choices? Have done tons of reading on flus, vaccines, and Guillain Barre? Yah, shame on me. Not sure for what though.
I think you confused me for a wingnut just because I dared to cut Beck some slack on one point. That's an error. I'm a liberal, but I don't toe any party's line.
I'm not using my experience as a recommendation to others to not get the flu vaccine.
And yeah, when I am talking about the general population, as I was, and as I clearly stated, one CAN say that it's safer to get the flu vaccine. How you missed that explanation in virtually every paragraph of mine above is stunning!
It seems that you STILL don't understand the fallacy of mentioning YOUR anecdotal experience in this discussion!
I did NOT confuse you with a wingnut. I correctly identified you who doesn't have a realistic picture of the flu or the flu vaccine. This isn't a liberal thing at all.
The vaccine doesn't have the potential to cause more problems than the flu itself for the general population. One cannot make a determination about the risks from the flu based upon the worst case scenario of getting the flu vaccine without comparing that risk to the worst case scenario of getting the flu, and the likelihood of each. When one looks at it that way, instead of from the skewed perspective that you use, the simple fact is that the vaccine doesn't have the potential to cause more problems than the flu itself.
On top of that, the statute in Florida is for diseases with a severe threat to the public health that have significant morbidity - diseases that cause a great percentage of people to die.
This flu is not one of those things, however, since it is so contagious, and is already an epidemic, if only a small percentage get really sick and die, it's still quite a few people, and that's the issue here.
Here's the statute
4. Ordering an individual to be examined, tested, vaccinated, treated, or quarantined for communicable diseases that have significant morbidity or mortality and present a severe danger to public health. Individuals who are unable or unwilling to be examined, tested, vaccinated, or treated for reasons of health, religion, or conscience may be subjected to quarantine.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM182401.pdf
Notice that the placebo contains thimerosal.
There are 300 million people in the USA. In some years, as much as 20% of the population (60 million) get the flu. Some years, it's as few as 5% (15 million). The average deaths in the USA from the flu is over 30,000.
So, risk of GBS from the flu for 60 million people? About 60 people getting GBS. The risk of dying from the flu for those 60 million people? Much, much, much greater. 30,000 is a heck of a lot more than 60. Like .2 percent.
This vaccine isn't very dangerous at all. Getting the flu is much more dangerous, and transmitting the flu to someone when you could have gotten the vaccine and not been contagious is what this campaign is all about.
Re-read my posts. I'm not telling people to not get vaccinated because they might get GBS. I'm saying that I had an adverse reaction and I will likely not get any more flu shots. The CDC has a warning for people like me:
If GBS has occurred within 6 weeks of previous influenza vaccination, the decision to give Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be based on careful consideration of the potential benefits and risks.
Did you miss my post where I said if I had kids I would have a "tough decision" ? Because I had an adverse reaction to a vaccine, I'm afraid that my children would also have one. But I also understand that H1N1 is harder on kids than adults. If I didn't vaccinate them, I'd probably quarantine them!
Btw, getting the flu is not globally "much more dangerous" than getting the vaccine. It depends on the individual. I had the flu, it wasn't that bad. If I'd gotten the vaccine I could possibly be experiencing paralysis right now. Do you really think I should have been vaccinated, if the vaccine had been available? If you say "yes", then I cannot print my response because MMFA doesn't allow profanity.
And again I want to remind you: I'm not a wingnut.
One does not post a link about the adverse reactions without trying to ensure that someone knows that there are adverse reactions. All that I did was explain how small of a risk that there is from those adverse reactions you pointed out, and countered the argument that the adverse reactions to the vaccine should sway one's decision here - the adverse reactions to the flu are much more frequent and much worse, yet you didn't publish any link to those symptoms and bad reactions, did you?
And still you don't get it. YOUR personal story has nothing to do with the flu being more dangerous than the flu vaccine.
And you want to imply that I didn't read your post because I supposedly didn't acknowledge your bad reaction? Here's a hint! "For people who have reactions like you had, then you probably shouldn't have another flu shot" is what I said. Guess what? I already knew what the CDC said about GBS and the flu. But what you have said is that you had a GBS-like illness, so you may not even be in their pool of people who should refrain, which is why I only said "probably" above.
If you had kids, and you looked fairly at the risks and benefits of the flu vaccine, you would give it to your kids in a moment. Out of 60 million people who get the vaccine, 60 will get GBS or something similar. Out of 60 million people who get the flu, 36,000 will die!!! Hmm, I wonder which is a worse scenario?
You cannot look at any one individual's reaction to the flu to make your decision for another person. One has to look at the group's experience in order to decide. I have had flu shots for years, and never had any bad reactions, so if you go by my reaction (which no one should) then everyone should get one. If one only looks at your experience, then no one should.
And did you mean "universally" more dangerous than "globally"? Because I never said it was "universally" more dangerous - did you really read my posts where I made several analogies to unique or unusual results not being something to hang one's argument on? I expressed said that individual results might vary!
I'm seeing SO many sick people going to work and school, not making any attempt to spare other people from their coughs and sneezes. I was on the train yesterday morning, girl near me was very obviously ill, going to class! She'll probably make a dozen other people ill because she was careless and rude. I was made ill by coworkers who came to work ill. Very infurating.
Symptoms are evidence of your body fighting off the disease. Before you ever even know you're sick, you are breathing out contagions for at least a day.
If you are vaccinated, you aren't.
And with this flu, some people won't get very sick at all, and will still be exposing others to the germs until their bodies develop enough antibodies to kill the virus. Even though many people won't be sick enough to know to stay home, they'll still be able to transmit the virus.
If they are vaccinated, they would not be transmitting the virus.
Yes, people who are sick should stay home. But that has nothing to do with this discussion about choices surrounding the vaccine. It's always been true that people who are sick should limit the exposure that others will have to them and their illnesses. There are a variety of reasons why sick people choose to go to work or school, most of them misguided, but many of them understandable.
The biggest reason for most people to get vaccinated is that it stops the pandemic. It's not because most people have a chance to die from the disease. One person who is sick can infect many more people - if you vaccinate enough people, then it saves a huge number of other people from getting sick, and some of them dying, but most of them just losing productivity that they didn't need to lose. If only the person who had infected them had gotten vaccinated!
I think that's not true. Back up your claim with a link to a reliable source.
Here is what the CDC says:
People infected with seasonal and 2009 H1N1 flu shed virus and may be able to infect others from 1 day before getting sick to 5 to 7 days after. This can be longer in some people, especially children and people with weakened immune systems and in people infected with the new H1N1 virus.
If a person isn't slobby, then they are probably less likely to spread the illness before they develop symptoms. Once they start coughing and dealing with nasal discharge, they have to be awfully careful to contain themselves. Few people are.
But here's one link, which says "Studies show that, if you contract a cold, you can transmit it to others one or two days before your symptoms appear, and up to four or five days after first being exposed to the virus. According to the National Institutes of Health (NIH), colds are most contagious two to four days after original exposure (whether or not symptoms have developed), when there is plenty of the virus present in nasal secretions."
And it takes a few days for the symptoms to appear after one gets exposed.
And spreading an illness is different than being contagious. People who know they are sick, for the most part, try to limit the number of people they intentionally infect. People who aren't showing any symptoms - they don't try to protect people from the germs or viruses they are expelling every time they breathe or clear their throat or touch their eyes or mouth or nose. It's just not accurate to say that most people aren't more careful about trying to prevent exposure when they are sick than when they think they are healthy. Again, stop thinking about any one person, and think about individuals as a group! I mean, really, think about it. How many people protect others from their breath when they feel sick versus people who think they aren't sick?
But the whole point was that one CANNOT protect others solely by hibernating when symptoms appear, which was your assertion on how you'd alternatively solve the problem of not infecting someone else. You suggested that if only someone had stayed home when they were sick, the parents of the 6 year old wouldn't be burying her this week, and that's just not necessarily true. If that someone had had a flu vaccine, then we could be more assured that they weren't carrying a virus that could kill.
They've proven this in Japan.
And the reason this is true? Mostly because people are contagious when they haven't yet gotten symptoms, but also because, for most people, it's a mild illness - in some people, they can hardly tell, or can't tell, that they are sick, but they are, and they are shedding viruses.
Because lots of people won't know that they are sick, they will be spreading the illness without intending to.
Yes, people should be more cognizant of their responsibility to not infect others. But if protecting others from an active infection motivates someone, then they should go a step further, and get a vaccination to hopefully never have to avoid infecting another person. And for people who aren't likely to protect others when they might be ill, then those people should get a flu shot too!
Beck is pretending that he's not taking a side, but he clearly is, and it's the side of those against being 'told' that Americans should take the vaccine.
The reason for everyone to get vaccinated is to prevent the most people we can from dying.
For some groups of people, yes, they should be forced to be vaccinated so that they don't accidentally infect an at-risk class of people.
So health care workers should be vaccinated to avoid an epidemic in a hospital, for example. Workplaces should give exemptions where possible and place people who refuse to get vaccinated in non-patient-facing roles.
Doctors and nurses, nowadays, clean their hands and cough into their shoulders or elbows and stay home when they are sick, and STILL a hospital is one of the germiest places around, because it is not possible to stop from spreading germs. And one of the ways that germs and viruses get spread is by people who don't know that they are sick. Because they don't know that they are sick, they aren't trying to keep everyone else from breathing their same air.
People who get the flu virus will be spreading the germ for at least a day before any symptoms appear. If they are one of the people who have minor symptoms, many will not recognize that they have the swine flu - they might think that it's simply an allergy, and so they take an over the counter antihistimine and go to work, and breath and shed viruses onto everyone they come into contact with. Some won't get any symptoms at all, but will still be shedding viruses!
But if they are vaccinated, there's little risk that they'll end up sick or end up helping to spread the epidemic!
I am sorry that this upsets your apple cart, but it's reality. To stop an epidemic, one needs to vaccinate about half the population in order to make much of an impact. Your conclusion that if only people would stop carelessly infecting others, all would be fine, just isn't borne out by the evidence.
In at least one hospital, the nurse's contract pays for sick time if they're vaccinated and still fall ill (that will happen). If you don't get vaccinated and get sick, you don't get sick pay.
It's about keeping patients from getting the virus.
39 states now have widespread outbreaks.
Some of the facts from the story....
1. In the Southern Hemisphere, they had a 15-fold increase (1500 percent) in ICU visits, and about 80% of those were directly related to the H1N1 flu.
2. One quarter of all Americans sick enough to be hospitalized with the swine flu this past spring had to be in Intensive Care. 25% got that sick! And 7% died. Remember, 0.2% of all people who get the vaccine might get GBS, and most recover fully.
3. The spokesman for the Infectious Diseases Society of America says "Clearly, the best way to protect yourself and your family is to get (the) vaccine as soon as it becomes available."
Beck and Limbaugh, and others, are trying to scare people away from the vaccine. I don't understand why. Clearly there are some people for whom the vaccine isn't appropriate, but the fears that others have about it aren't founded in reality.
Most people won't get very sick from the swine flu. Many won't even know they got infected. But for some, it's a deadly disease. Vaccines are a good way to fight against this disease, and getting a lot of people to get vaccinated is the only way to stem the pandemic.