Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted
In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event. This rhetoric includes the disturbing signs -- such as one of a pile of Holocaust victims' bodies captioned "National Socialist Health Care, Dachau, Germany - 1945" -- displayed at the event.
Anti-reform rally featured extremist images
"National Socialist Health Care, Dachau, Germany - 1945" From a blog post by the Center for American Progress' Matthew Yglesias:


"Got Good Health Care? Let me cure that for you. Stop Obamunism." From a November 5 Huffington Post slide show:

"OBAMA - Gov't TAKE OVER ... JUST LIKE NAZI GERMANY!" From the Huffington Post slide show:

Pelosi: "UnAmerican McCarthyite." From MSNBC.com:

"Maoism is not reform." From the Huffington Post slide show:

"Obama Listens to Mao, I listen to Fox News." From the Huffington Post slide show:

"KEN-YA TRUST OBAMA." From MSNBC.com:

NBC's First Read reports on "jaw-dropping signs." In a November 5 post on the rally, the MSNBC.com blog First Read reported:
Here are some of the more jaw-dropping signs seen at the rally:
- "Get the Red Out of the White House."
- "Waterboard Congress"
- "Traitor to the U.S. Constitution" (Picture of Obama on sign)
- "Ken-Ya Trust Obama?" (Rep. Steve King, R-IA, autographing the sign)
- "Un-American McCarthyite" (with picture of Pelosi)
- "I'm the King of the World: Remember the Titanic?" (Drawing of Obama in the mold of the 'Jovial Sambo' from the Jim Crow era doing the Leo Titanic pose."
Fox News personalities aggressively promoted Bachmann's protest against health care reform bill
Fox News follows pattern of advocacy in promoting November 5 rally. Fox News and its personalities -- including judicial analyst Andrew Napolitano, contributor Newt Gingrich, hosts Gretchen Carlson, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck, and their website The Fox Nation -- repeatedly promoted Bachmann's November 5 anti-reform protest.
Fox News has repeatedly engaged in conservative advocacy by promoting protests
Fox News promoted April 15 tea parties. In the lead-up to the April 15 tea parties, which the channel repeatedly described as "FNC Tax Day Tea Parties," Fox News frequently aired segments publicizing the events and encouraging viewers to get involved. A Media Matters for America study found that from April 6 to 13, Fox News featured at least 20 segments on the "tea party" protests. A subsequent Media Matters study found that from April 6 to 15, Fox News aired at least 107 commercial promotions for its coverage of the April 15 tea parties.
Fox News promoted town hall disruptions. Fox News promoted disruptions of Democratic town hall events by protesters opposed to health care reform -- protests that were touted by Republican leaders and supported by conservative groups. Following the August 2 disruption of a town hall event hosted by Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA) and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, Fox News personalities repeatedly lauded such protesters and urged viewers to take similar action.
Fox News promoted 9-12 protests. In the lead-up to the 9-12 protest, Beck's website worked with others organizing the September 12 "March on Washington," and Beck repeatedly encouraged viewers to attend the protest. Fox News also heavily promoted the Tea Party Express tour -- the final stop of which was the 9-12 protest -- on Fox News, Fox Business, The Fox Nation, and FoxNews.com.















Let me ask you something genius...
Can you provide a link which shows any Fox News circus act distancing itself from all this racism, sickness, un-Americanism, insanity that Fox News went out of its way to get started??
If you can find even one... then we can all cut you slack... if not... your going to be seen as nothing more than an ignorant bug who is as pathetic and worthless as the rest of the slimy trolls who come in here with their right-wing garbage!!
Until then Cluster Fox OWNS THIS!!!!!
And his post makes sense, while yours is filled with the lunacy you accuse him of.
Hypocrite, thy name is boburell. Heal thyself first.
Cuz I'll put my knowledge of current and historical events up against his (or yours) any day
You may not want to go there with me...
I'm a third year history major one, two, any time you think your ready!
Okay, your turn to see how far you can pee.
Oh - we had at least 250,000 people there. HAHAHA!
As for your discussions with the tea-baggers and the 250,000 pro-health care reform demonstrators you had to back you up, represent. Thanks for taking the time to get out the word.
You know perfectly well that there is no 'guilt by association' in this.
Fox Noise promoted this rally! They covered it and pushed it! So did the loony right-wing Congress-people who showed up and spoke at the damn thing!
If people showed up with pro Fox News posters and Fox did not in any way promote the rally, then yes, I would agree with you that it would be 'guilt by association'... but that is not the case... THEY PROMOTED THE DAMN THING!
And that is why Cluster Fox owns this whole entire racist, vile, and un-American rally!
And unless you can provide a link which shows that Fox has attempted to distance itself, or any of the right-wing Congress-people there who spoke has tried to do the same... then I stand by my words about you in my earlier post!
Because no liberal I know would bother to try and defend Cluster Fox for its blatant lies, propaganda, and all around garbage it pushes!
Oh, and now you're libeling me with guilt by association with that "no liberal I know...." comment. The implication being you can withhold my liberal street cred if I don't extricate myself from this argument by providing you proof that Fox distanced themselves from the rally. That's pretty much filled my irony quota for the day, my friend. Send me a postcard when you graduate....
Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your opinion on this and you gave me a point of view I had not previously considered, but should have.
I think some folks around here are just a bit too quick on the defensive these days. I hope this does not continue as such defensiveness usually ultimately leads to defending the indefensible. If that day comes, the conservatives will have won by us becoming them.
Other than the last two words of my post... what other words are in full caps?
It is obvious, even for a 4th grader that I was emphasizing Cluster Fox's ownership of that disgusting rally!
I'm still waiting for a link which would prove that Cluster Fox has attempted in any way to distance themselves from that display of racism, vileness, and un-American activity!
Many of us honestly disagree with you, and you're the one who threw stones first, after your whining about getting thumbs down from people who apparently vehemently disagreed with you.
It's your reaction that's uncalled for here. YOU need to step back. You're the one who went off the deep end over a couple of capitalized words used for emphasis! You're the one who pulled out your c.t. first. You've gotten about as much civility as your behavior has entitled yourself to.
Yeah, I got irritated and posted a followup to point out that I'd gotten a thumbs down for calling attention to the parallel tactic used in this article with what Fox has done in the past. I've seen a proclivity on this site to march in lockstep that is as unattractive in liberals as it is in conservatives. A certain segment of MMfA regular posters have jettisoned their critical faculties and defended this site with the same fervor and lack of rationality seen in the fans of Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh who routinely post in defense of their idols here. I think that kind of irrational debate is counterproductive and, quite frankly, generally against all of the principles of logic and reason over fear and tyrrany that liberals espouse.
You don't have a leg to stand on when you decry our lack of civility considering your behavior here, and this latest assertion that we walk in lockstep? Horrifically off base and undeserved.
And it would be wonderful if you could understand that the irrational debate on display here all came from you yourself.
Actually, it appears that well over twenty "jackasses" have given you the thumbs down, bob.
And they didn't do that because of your call for journalistic integrity, they did it because you appear to be a major jackass yourself.
In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event.
It's not guilt by association. FoxNews owns it.
And it's one that precisely DOES NOT apply here. Fox promoted these, fueled these, uncritically reported on them, hosted "experts" to bloster their positions... They're not just "some group" that MMFA has just thrown in here. They're INVOLVED. And they SHOULD act more repsosibly, if they're going to claim to be a News organization.
Also...
The guy holding the "Un-American McCarthyite" sign apparently has no concept of either irony or hypocrisy. The people can only be explained in one of two ways: the Brainwashed or the Brain-Washers. It's like I always say....
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Conservatives only come in two flavors: Evil and Stupid. One lies, the other buys.
In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event.
You:
it also equates Fox with the people actually holding those awful, awful signs
Me:
Now THAT'S a stretch. You have a point, from a certain POV, but I think you're saying more than MMFA actually is here. You're taking their point farter than they do.
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Just my take.
But, just as Boburell has done, you're still going farther with this than MMFA is. They never said that Fox is "guilty of the protester's behavior."
They said that "In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event."
And neither of you are really arguing against that point. You're arguing against an exaggeration of that point.
I really hate to call 'strawman' when you are both making such otherwise reasonable points, but...
(Sorry...)
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STRAWMAN.
NO.
Becasue, in the minds of Fox and the avergae Fox viewer, there is no such thing as going TO FAR. There is no such thing as being "too far right" or "too conservtaive" or "too agressive in attacking Obama."
To them, the ends not only justifies the means, but the ideology justifies both the means AND the ends.
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MMFA presetned thier evidence. Show me any evidence that Fox is pulling back from these @$$h*le$ and I'll take it all back.
I agree.
You make a great point, and kudos to your fairness here. It's a given what Fox is, partisan crap for the most part. But they did not expressly urge people to come to Washington with idiotic signs like the ones MMfA posts here. Encouraging a rally is guilt by association of encouraging a rally, but not guilty of the behavior of some of these nuts.
MMfA will go to any lengths to dump on Fox even when it's not warranted, and this is not.
And SILENCE on any matter is, by mosts tennant of reason and common law, sufficient to imply CONSENT.
So they've promoted the event, and have refused to call out or criticise the ones that went too far. This is a fcat that neither of you deny. So MMFA is right: They've chosen to associate themselves with them.
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That they didn't explicitly tell the protetsers exactly what to paint on their signs is laughably immaterial.
Thank God he renounced his Australian citizenship - it saves us the trouble of disowning him
What this is more like is hosting a party with drinking games, and then letting someone leave and run over someone on their way home. That driver is still responsible for their own actions, and it's not "guilt by association" to question the host's behavior as well.
Oh, and we aren't painting FoxNews with the amount of culpability that the people who actually wrote the signs have. Just like we don't assign the same guilt to the bar owners who continue to serve a drunk person alcohol as we do to the drunk that then goes out and kill someone while driving! But we still make that bar owner 'own' their behavior - their choice to serve a drunk person!
And it's one of the few posts that I made that Boburell didn't reply to, and I notice he didn't reply to this one of yours either. I think this argument, that we hold servers of alcohol responsible because they own their own behavior is similar to saying that FoxNews owns the extremist images featured here. They knew that they were giving directions to the tinder to known arsonists.
At this point I just want to see the evidence that MMfA can't be saying exactly what we are. I appreciate the sentiment that MMfA should rise above those they criticize, but the argument that they aren't doing so seems weak at the moment.
Gee, why am I having a hard time believing this tripe?
This is not a case of guilt by association, because the event was promoted by FOX Propaganda. They wished to have their names plastered all over it, and to that end they helped promote and organize it, along with a number of similar events this past year.
Here is an article that may help.
I disagree with the left on many issues, but I have come to trust them more exactly because they have refused to get down in the much with the right - who has sold their soul to the extremist in their party. McCain lost me once he chose Palin and started going after the Wright and Ayers nonsense. I think I speak for a lot of independents when I say let me hear your ideas, save the name-calling and game of political tag for the fools who worship AM hate radio.
I agree that when you have truth and sense on your side, abandoning them to smear-tactics and unreasonableness can defeat your entire purpose.
Yes the tactis of fox and those at this protest (which I do not view to be unrelated) are the tactics of fear, misinformation, hate and lies, and the natural response in the face of such things is a tendency to open our mouths in shock and respond with blanket statements to the effect of 'they must be stopped', but this is a form of extremism in itself and must be resisted.
Also, I dont think that bringing people's level of education into an argument like this is helpful at all. If liberals are often accused of being the intelligencia and elitest, I think we are our own worst enemy if we start qualifying whether a person's opinion should be listened to based on the type of degree they have.
I'm sure that some people will ignore my points based on the fact that they may be porely expressed or misspelled, but give me a break, it's 5.30am where I am, and I haven't been to bed yet.
'Be the change you want to see in the world' means holding yourself to the standards that you would like to see everyone follow and one of those standards to my mind, is allowing a free and open discourse which doesn't devolve into a purile argument about education levels with name-calling and ganging-up, especially when the disagrement is between people who are in agreement on the main points. We have enough idiots to convert without trying to alienate those already on our side.
Getting off soapbox, like I said, it's 5.30, i'm very tired.
Thus, what you call Fox News' "guilt by association" is more accurately called "guilt by provocation" via joint responsibility: Fox News does not merely "report" about all these insane, right-wing protests, it also promotes them - and that act technically brings Fox News out of the realm of journalism and into the realm of activism. Thus Media Matters is correct: because Fox News actively promotes these protests on both its "news" shows and opinion shows - it all but commands its loyal (and completely brainwashed) viewers to take part in these protests - it also owns (though perhaps only partially) the images from these protests.
Fox wanted an event, sure. They promoted it and inflated its relevance and its turnout, given. But they didn't make the signs, as far as we know. They didn't explicitly encourage the conflation of health care and the Holocaust. So it's guilt by association, unless some documentary evidence emerges that directly ties Fox to those signs. To state otherwise is disingenuous.
Grasping at straws, are we?
He explained to you why you were wrong, and you went back to your same old tired argument that his explanation debunked.
They don't need to point out each and every sign individually in order to endorse the sentiments on them; Glenn Beck says virtually the same things as almost all of those signs every single night of the week and promotes participation in tea bag protests. Thus Fox News does partially own those signs.
How can you not see the relationship, boburell? Being fair is one thing - and your attempt is noble - but the fact of the matter is that you are being willfully ignorant on this matter.
We disagree with you that it's wrong. We wholeheartedly disagree that MMFA is employing the same dirty tricks - it's not even close. You aren't getting 'beat up' because you expressed differing opinions. And that's the kind of arguing that gets you the labels you got above.
Oh, and we aren't painting FoxNews with the amount of culpability that the people who actually wrote the signs have. Just like we don't assign the same guilt to the bar owners who continue to serve a drunk person alcohol as we do to the drunk that then goes out and kill someone while driving! But we still make that bar owner 'own' their behavior - their choice to serve a drunk person!
It's nice to have these intellectual discussions about the defintions of things, and how technically "this" or "that" "may or may not" be true. But the reality is this: if i call a group of people to rally for or against something, and EACH AND EVERY TIME i did there were the most vile and hateful messages scattered throughout, i would INSTINCTIVELY separate myself from that message. That is what any person of integrity (and any real news network)would do. Period. If i didn't, people would be absolutely right to question (1) whether or not i support this message, and (2) whether it is merely coincidence that every time i gather groups of supporters together this ugliness is on full display. FOX knows what its doing. And if we don't hold propogandists accountable for their work than we all deserve what we get in the end.
Look, the title of the article (and I'm starting to think that my fans neglected to read the goddamned thing) was Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted. The article then actually says "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from [the rally on Capitol Hill]. The article then provides a litany of abhorrent signs, and then returns to Fox and their promotion of the event. Every article on MMfA is an argument. Every argument can be broken into a syllogism.
So, here's the syllogism:
The people who held those signs believe X
Fox News believes X
Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs
No, Fox won't repudiate the demonstration. Even if they were inclined to do so, they can't afford to alienate their core demographic (disgruntled older white people). No, just because the syllogism is invalid, I'm not saying it's not true; those of you who have not studied classical logic can be excused for confusing the two, but at least some of you people must have gone to college. Remember? Logic is not concerned with truth or falsehood, but rather validity and invalidity. This article presented an invalid argument that may well have been true. But, true or not, valid argument is the sine qua non of journalism. Media Matters espouses a journalistic ethic. Therefore, Media Matters must present valid arguments.
See? That last bit was both true AND valid. Let the hazing continue....
What is there that suggests that they think that FOX and the protesters both believe "X"? That they've chosen to associate themselves with the protesters? That proves nothing about what they believe, or the degree in which they would express it.
Here's a scenario:FOX leads its viewers in a general direction of thought. They then promote a protest. The protesters go way over the top with the line of thought, and FOX does not make any effort to distance themselves from them. In that case, there is an "X" and a "Y" as to who believes what. That's entirely possible, and it would be completely consistent with what was said in this article. Nobody's asserting that any beliefs are identical, because it's irrelevant to the point. They can associate with the protesters because it's politically convenient, whether they look at those posters and smile or cringe.
Your syllogism is not an accurate reflection on what is presented here, therefore you are engaging in a straw man argument.
Again:Now, please explain to me how that is inconsistent with:Thank you in advance.
In point of fact, assuming that you weren't conflating the man with the ideas espoused by the man was not a safe bet. Therefore, it was essential, for clarity, to clear up that point.
Also, you've repeatedly chosen to decouple the title from the article. That's egregious, in my opinion, because there's really not much article here. Leaving the title out of the argument sort of removes a certain context.
I started this flame war with one simple observation, that the article committed the guilt by association fallacy. Well, get a load of this...it also commits petitio principii (begging the question). The conclusion of this article's argument is contained in the title, "Fox News owns the extremist images...." Building a syllogism out of this article, and nothing outside of this article, requires one to assume the conclusion in the antecedent: Fox associates with the rhetoric in those signs.
As for the rest, I'd say that we're stuck with the fallacy of difference of terms. I say the term "owns" is an assertion that Fox is implicitly culpable for the content of those signs. This may, or may not, be true, but the argument that follows is an invalid proof.
You yourself provided a reason for FOX to refrain from distancing themselves from the imagery, but at the same time if MMfA points out that they "own" it, that must mean that they believe the exact same thing as the protesters. That was part of your syllogism. Are you sticking with that?
On to the rest. I'm not fixating on the line, the line is key to a dearth of explicit statements about how Fox owns the imagery. The title sets out a conclusion. Can we agree on that? That the title makes a statement that demands to be supported by argument?
Because, if we can agree that the title is the conclusion of the argument, then we have to look within the argument for premisses. I don't see much of substance there, so I chose the two most explicit statements MMfA used to support their conclusion, e.g., the "Anti-Reform rally featured extremist images" and "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event." Now, in building a syllogism, I had to paraphrase because the premisses weren't written for that form. It's a license, sure, but I tried to be very careful to retain the meaning as I read it. That lead me to:
The people who held those signs believe X**
Fox News believes X**
Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs***
*This is my paraphrase of "Anti-Reform rally featured extremist images." I had to include the people who held the signs, though MMfA didn't mention them, because I find the implication that those people don't have any culpability in the display of that imagery offensive to my sense of fair debate. The rally was comprised of people who held signs containing imagery that they presumably accepted as truth. "The people who held those signs believed X."
**Paraphrased from "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event." The statement explicitly states that Fox accepts the rhetoric of those signs as truth. "Fox believes X."
***Which brings us to the conclusion, "Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted." Because Fox neither endorsed the signs, bought the signs, produced the signs, nor are we presented with any evidence that Fox staffers carried the signs, one wonders how Fox can be tied to the signs by the article above. I restated the conclusion to read, "Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs," because Fox is clearly being conflated with people who carried signs. What I mean is, the conclusion, explicit in the title, isn't proved in the body of the article by any other means than guilt by association.
You could save yourself a lot of typing by addressing what I say. Such as:The question isn't whether MMfA is making an argument or not, it's what that argument is. You are taking the word "owns" and assigning a meaning to it.No, it does not. Again, you...yourself...provided a motivation for FOX to accept the signs regardless of their belief:This is directly relevant to the scenario I presented above, which you are required to address if you want to defend your syllogism. If there is any conceivable way for FOX to tie itself to this rhetoric without that being their original intent, then you are reading beyond what MMfA is saying.
You're paraphrasing what was said here through the prism of your definition of "owns". Why are they supposed to be accountable for your interpretation, when there's a perfectly understandable one available? There's a history of extreme rhetoric at these sorts of events, which goes hand-in-hand with FOX's history of promotion of the events. Whether they truly believe in what the protesters are saying or not, they have chosen to associate themselves with that rhetoric. There is nothing to show that MMfA is working from the logical construct that you've taken license in creating.
That's not logical, that's faith.
Hence was born the science of linguistics.... The article's argument, it seems to me, informs the interpretation of the word "owns." What scant text there is with which to work seems to point to an ideation of Fox having identical culpability with the people who actually brought the signs (who are not once mentioned in the text of the article; you don't find that conspicuous?). So, yeah, my argument hinges on the term, but the article seems to bolster my argument, both for what's in the text, and for what's oddly not.
As for your scenario, no, no I don't have to address it. Other than to say that I think your reading of the text is more based upon an urge to exculpate MMfA from my accusation of poor journalism than an earnest exegesis.
That's not logical, that's faith.
Hence was born the science of linguistics.... The article's argument, it seems to me, informs the interpretation of the word "owns." What scant text there is with which to work seems to point to an ideation of Fox having identical culpability with the people who actually brought the signs (who are not once mentioned in the text of the article; you don't find that conspicuous?). So, yeah, my argument hinges on the term, but the article seems to bolster my argument, both for what's in the text, and for what's oddly not.
As for your scenario, no, no I don't have to address it. Other than to say that I think your reading of the text is more based upon an urge to exculpate MMfA from my accusation of poor journalism than an earnest exegesis.
I don't see you specifying how my reading is in any way unjustified, except that it doesn't conform to the argument you are so attached to. If you'd like to discuss this on a logical level, try again.
Now, unless you can really restate that damning phrase contained within the title of this article without going outside the article itself, then you must concede that the term "own" refers to Fox's culpability. You can't make the argument, nor do I think you intend to, that the term implicates Fox in the production of those signs, either through physical or intellectual property rights. You can't really say that Fox generated all of the rhetoric contained in those signs, because it's pretty much stock stuff in the conservative blogosphere, hate-talk and right-wing print media. So the term "own" must refer to Fox's culpability viz. the actions of the persons who did produce those signs; that's guilt by association, unless you're really going to try and stick with the custodial obligation metaphor you floated up-thread. In which case, you're just flat wrong. Those people who carried the signs are not dependent upon Fox for the formulation or execution of their actions; they are not drunks in a bar, they are not arsonists seeking tinder, they are not metaphors, they are people. Deeply misguided people, but still people, fully culpable, ethically and legally, for their own actions.
Now, of course, people who perpetrate evil acts concommitantly are equally culpable, but even this meaning disregards the singular concept of "own"ership. Parties can only own equal shares of culpability in equal partnership. The article, by completely neglecting to mention the individuals at the rally, put the "own"ership of the signs in the singular hands of Fox. Again, I ask you, did you not find it conspicuous that the protestors, the actual individuals who produced, brought, and carried those signs, were never mentioned in the article? That the culpability for the messages in those signs was put squarely upon Fox in the very title of this article? You don't find that odd?
So, no, I don't have to address your scenario, because your scenario draws nothing from the article itself. It makes a hopeful inference based upon what you think the author of the article may have meant. It doesn't address the article, but what surrounds the article, namely your disdain for Fox and your urge to defend MMfA. But the article fails to hold anyone but Fox accountable for those signs, signs that Fox neither produced nor endorsed. They are tendered "own"ership of those images through guilt by association. Again, you're very concerned with the matter of truth or falsity, while formal logic simply does not concern itself with such things. It may be true that Fox is culpable for those signs; it is not a valid argument, as presented.
I've criticized MMfA before, and I've defended FOX as well. I'm not going to do it based on your arbitrary and convenient definitions, though. You may note that I'm not drawing any conclusions about your motivation for your argument, I'm simply addressing your reasoning. You, for some reason, feel a need to smear me as being "hopeful" and having an "urge" for making a defense.
So who is "logical", and who is emotional?
So, other than the few comments that equivocated the term "logic" with "[un]emotional," (this isn't Star Trek) I enjoyed this debate, but see no purpose in continuing it. We're not even arguing about the same thing. Thank you for taking the time and effort to conduct a civil discussion. I appreciate that a great deal.
You are speculating. That's my issue with your syllogism. I don't have to submit an alternate syllogism, because I'm not making any claim as to what their construct is. Maybe they were thinking what you say, but you don't have anything to support it outside of your assumptions. It may be true, but it's not valid. Seriously, you're hinging your argument on the "conspicuous" nature of MMfA's failure to mention the individuals protesting, while instead mentioning the messages of protesters (who would, by definition, be the people protesting). By this nefarious action, they are removing culpability from these people, I suppose because they hope the reader will imagine the signs moving around on their own, as if held by ghosts. If that's an unfair interpretation, you should have expanded on that idea, because it makes exactly zero sense as you twice expressed it.
I'm just not impressed with words, I want to see coherent arguments. No matter what school of philosophy you're working from, you can not get around the fact that a valid alternate possibility precludes you from stating another possibility as "explicitly" established. You have to show how that alternate possibility is inconsistent with the title and/or text, otherwise you have no way of knowing which scenario was actually played out. You can throw all the terminology you like at me, but it does not change the logical nature of my argument.
You're not denying that FOX influenced the protesters. You admit that they could have a motive for remaining quiet about these signs which has nothing to do with agreement or approval. If you said that it strikes you as inappropriate, that they might be guilty of guilt by association depending on how they are defining "owns", that would be fair. What I don't accept is your wild assumptions from very little text while chastising me for presenting an alternate scenario which was not specified in the text. I don't accept the arrogance of stating that MMfA's article is expressed with a syllogism and anyone who points out the uncertain nature of that syllogism isn't logical. I do not accept accusations of dishonest behavior because I "chose" to separate the title from the text, however I supposedly did so while responding to your specific comments. I do not accept charges of bias simply because I'm disputing your baseless assertions as the self-proclaimed lord of logic (appeal to authority, by the way). I do try to conduct a civil discussion, but I will not accept your continuous assault on my senses of logic and objectivity, and I expect you to behave better in the future.
There is no world in which my arguments don't apply. If we're talking at cross purposes, it's because you've gone off the tracks.
Frighteningly stupid but amusing.
Any other hippy mthyology you'd care to share with us?
I don't however,remember anything near as disgusting and disgraceful as the signs at today's tea bag gathering.
The weirdest thing is how completely over the top this all has become.To invoke the memory of Nazi death camps and open graves because Obama wants a public health option?These folks truly are "loony" with a capital "L".
As far as drug induced people, the drug of choice on Wall Street in the late 70's was LSD. Trickle Down Economics certainly would seem to be evidence of some mind altering drug.
The media still has not digested and regurgitated what happened in the sixties either.
The only problem with that is that they're NOT paying more in taxes.
the Govt more control over the private sector?
I guess you forgot about that little thing called the economic meltdown caused by lack of oversight by the government on the private sector.
Please, next time, try harder.
Nor did I see any "whack jobs". I did see young and old, blacks and whites, Jews and non-Jews, Latinos and just plain old WSAPS.
In otherwords, I saw Americans.
And just so someone thinks I am going to hide behind a comment and not ID myself. My name is SJ Sanor. I live in Alexandria, VA. I am the only one in the phone book.
And no, I don't want the gov. using "health care" as an excuse to take over my rights. I spent too many hours serving aboard a submarine to hand over my property to the Democrates to shell out to their voters.
You're exactly the audience the teabaggers attract. Because if you knew anything about anything, you would know that you have no idea what you are talking about.
The people in America who have the best health care, whose healthcare actually DOES beat the rest of the world? That'd be the people on Medicare. Everyone over 65. The plan that's run without hardly any overhead.
What rights will be taken over by the government? I would look up the definition of the word "option" if I were you.
Why do we care what your name is? We do not know you personally.
If you were at this rally and the guy to your right was not a "whackjob" and the guy to your left was not a "whackjob", it may be possible that you were the "whackjob". Just a thought.
FOX in aggressively promoting this,must therefore "own" i.e. "take responsibility" for the outrageous and hysterical tone of this event.
There's no way of proving that any particular person was inspired by FOX as opposed to other sources, but it's unseemly. Wouldn't you agree that even a biased outlet should make an effort to distance themselves from extremist elements, just for the sake of appearances if nothing else?
The Dems health-care policies will bring about the ruination of the finest health care system in the world, with increased costs, poorer service and the end of innovation.
What the Dems are trying to do to health-care ultimately has nothing to do with creating a better health-care system, or improving the lot of people. It is about control. Pure and simple.
It is evil. Pure and simple.
Blame it on Fox if you want. It is the truth. Pure and simple.
Oh, by the way, did protest become unpatriotic on January 22?
Why would anyone be motivated to invest millions of dollars in research if there is no return? The government does not produce anything. It only costs. Add 119 layers of bureaucracy to any system and see if the costs don't rise.
Like Stephen Hawking?
[strawman fallacy]
Why would anyone be motivated to invest millions of dollars in research if there is no return?
Much research is done at Universities, thus creates profit for companies because they have small R & D budgets.
Add 119 layers of bureaucracy to any system and see if the costs don't rise.
Simple exaggeration.
That is so idiotic and ill-informed it is almost offensive. Canadians do NOT come to the United States for healthcare. It is simply ridiculous. They like their healthcare. Their most famous citizen of all time is Tommy Douglas. He was voted the Greatest Canadian of all time by their own people. I know you have no idea who that is, but you should since you are making such a fool out of yourself. Canadians actually get insurance before they come here just in case they have a medical emergency in our country. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?
And if she was 80 or something like that, she wouldn't want there to be great expense to save her anyway. So I'm not seeing where this point leads you, exactly.
Oh, wait! It's not because of research, it's to make sure that the pharmaceutical companies have the very latest and most efficient means of producing their products, to get them to market in an inexpensive and expeditious manner, right? Well, no, as it turns out, that's not the case either. Why are we waiting on H1N1 vaccine? Because of antiquated production methods. And, who is paying for the development of more modern means of producing vaccines? You guessed it! The U.S. Government. Solutions that will likely be given freely to big pharma funded by your taxdollars, so they can pocket ever growing profits for themselves.
This is your private health care industry, working hard to keep your money. And, at the cost of higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you're arguing in their favor, as thought the big insurance companies needed or wanted your help, or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.
A public option means competition for the for-profit insurance companies, encouraging efficiency and lowering costs.
'...the finest health care system in the world..." is a phrase with little meaning if you cannot afford it. It's like telling someone who is starving to death we grow the finest food. Or telling someone who is homeless we build the best houses.
Will there be some control over private insurance? You bet. So that the average American can't be dropped for a pre-existing condition, like having acne as a kid. In other words, to do what government is supposed to do, which is protect American citizens from predation by industries grown so huge and powerful that, in most of the country, there isn't even any competition.
You can think Obama is a socialist if it keeps you warm at night. What you cannot do is prove it.
Are you referring to the insurance industry or the Govt?
See what happens when you put it back in context? Everything becomes much simpler. I realize you live in a FOX Propaganda sound bite driven world, and complex sentence structure can seem daunting, but I think you can puzzle it out if you just give it a little more thought.
I'm guessing that you have no problem giving the Govt any amount in taxes that they wish, fine. Higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you should take that up with BO, he's in charge. How many have died from H1N1 now? BO hates children. lol
I'm not in favor of giving the government any amount in taxes, and it is dangerous to assume, dave. Higher premiums and higher death tolls and fewer Americans covered is what you're getting under the current health coverage system.
I've explained that the waning supplies of H1N1 vaccine are directly attributable to the companies that actually make it, and the century old methods they still use, and not the government. If you have any proof that President Obama hates children, feel free to cite it. Just like all the 'evidence' Beck supplied when he called our president a racist. Exactly none.
We currently pay twice the amount other countries pay for health insurance. Countries paying half what we pay are getting better health outcomes. So, actually, it would seem that you have no problem giving any amount of money to already grotesquely wealthy corporations, based on your staunch support of their right to profit over the dead bodies of 45,000 Americans each year.
Cropping a quote means taking a portion of what someone says out of context. You did exactly that.
ORIGINAL:This is your private health care industry, working hard to keep your money. And, at the cost of higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you're arguing in their favor, as thought the big insurance companies needed or wanted your help, or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.
CROPPED: ..or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.
ARGUEMENT: I put the dots in front of it. I didn't crop a quote.
'the dots' are an ellipsis, correctly 'dot-space-dot-space-dot'
http://www.nowpublic.com/health/swine-flu-mortality-rate-climbs-5-000
This is a 'manufactured' epidemic.
And the issue isn't how many will be killed by this flu - overall, for MOST people, it's a mild flu.
The problem is who it kills that normal seasonal flu doesn't kill. Healthy people. Pregnant women. Little kids.
Because of that disparity, there's greater concern.
If we can vaccinate enough people, then fewer people will be able to infect someone who might get really sick or die from the disease.
Do you want to be the person who gets a mild case of the flu because you refused to get vaccinated, and then you infect someone before you even know that you're coming down with that flu, and then have that person's illness or death on your conscience? I don't. You shouldn't, when all you would have had to do is get immunized when the vaccine becomes available.
Nothing you posted was "the truth."
And, if I'm not mistaken, protesting became unpatriotic about 8 years ago.
The only problem with that is that Obama is NOT a socialist.
He has lots of people working for him who revere Mao and Castro and Che
No, he doesn't.
They are the heroes of our present administration.
No, they're not.
The Dems health-care policies will bring about the ruination of the finest health care system in the world,
Correction - we have the best health CARE in the world, but only the 37th best health care SYSTEM in the world.
As to the US being #37 - http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/popular-ranking-unfairly-misrepresents-the-us-health-care-system/
The WHO report is biased against free market systems.
If you mean in 2001, yes.
Well at very least you got to hand it to Obama.
He has single-handedly forced wing nuts to get out their reference books and learn where countries such as Kenya are, as well as having getting the nuts to learn how to spell words such as Marxism, Socialism, Mao, Castro and Che.
No i m b e c i l e left behind!
But no one is trying to collect damages, so your argument is a strawman. The problem is the ownership of the images. They are guilty of that.
...They just stopped short of handing them poster board and markers...
I think the "Obama listens to Mao, I listen to FoxNews" pretty much sums up the "news" organization's role...
These are the sheep and FoxNews has the Far-Right Staff...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/31862777_89b3bfe886.jpg
Just like Fox helped organize the clusterfox that showed up at DC yesterday.
What major news network (legitimate or otherwise) promoted and encouraged the behavior those who were arrested at Sen Lieberman's office? I think you know the answer to that one: none of them did.
By calling Obama a socialist, marxist, communist, racist, America-hating, Kenyan-born madrasa educated muslim extremist who wants to take over the country using ACORN-trained youth Nazi volunteers.
About 45,000 Americans died in Korea. 58,000 died in Viet Nam. I think 48,000 died between October, 1944 and March, 1945 just in the Philippines. Show me a picture of an Iraq war protester holding up a picture of a dead American soldier.
We saw similar signs at the tea party rallies, but the organizers tried to explain them away as "small fringe groups" in an otherwise normal crowd.
But, these images at this rally can't be waved off so easily. This was a Bachmann-Fox gig. Just view all the posts MMFA has that shows how Fox promoted this.
These aren't fringe elements in an otherwise normal crowd. The crowd IS the fringe element.
And, they're being riled up by the GOP and Fox.
Legal protesting, but very disturbing.
They'd rather spend their time playing to this crowd, instead of working on HC reform. Shameful behavior by politicians.
News is supposed to be impartial, reporting on protests, not organizing them!
What's the problem? The fact that there's at least one news outlet left that reports on conservative calls to action?
I lived through the 1960s, and reporting on protests and calls to protest were regular events. It's called being objective. I was also a part of the mid-1980s anti-South Africa protests at UC Berkeley, and remember Mario Savio and others calling for people to show up.
The people DID show up. C-SPAN has the entire rally, without commentary, on their site. I'd like to see any of you who protest the rally actually talk about the points made without name-calling or generalizations. Our Founders encouraged citizens to speak up and protest the actions of an out-of-control, non-responsive government. Name-calling isn't going to win this debate. But FREEDOM will win out.
NO legit news organization promotes partisan hate-fests.
And your offensive strawman argument that it's MY side that can't discuss the issues revolving around healthcare without name-calling or generalizations? Did you see the signs here? It's your side.
YOU own those people, not me. You own the people who are misleadingly talking about death panels when they don't exist, for example. It's your side who makes the debate difficult, when we should be talking about how great an idea it is to give patients end-of-life counselling that's paid for by Medicare.
Your obnoxious assumption that we don't want healthy debate is really off target - it'd be your side that stymied that during Bush's term!!! We welcome protests too, just not ones sponsored by the media and that have such vitriol for people who disagree with them.
I agree with DellDolly.
You are confusing media coverage with media participation to make the event happen.
This isn't a concert, promoted by the local radio station.
This is a political rally to interfere with the legislative process, promoted by a "fair and balanced" "news" outlet.
What makes this even more shameful is that the so-called MSM outlets don't see the problem.
We all believe in FREEDOM, but FREEDOM at what price?
We get what we deserve.
As in they OWN intellectual property rights over those images?
Or they bought and paid for the (mostly crappy) signs?
Or they provided said images and signs to protestors?
That is what owns means. The article doesn't explain any of that anywhere. I still find the headline confusing.
I prefer to have my articles substantiated in some way, I thought that was what MMFA was all about.
Why shout down somebody who seeks more information or clarity of current information?