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Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted

November 05, 2009 7:27 pm ET — 190 Comments

In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event. This rhetoric includes the disturbing signs -- such as one of a pile of Holocaust victims' bodies captioned "National Socialist Health Care, Dachau, Germany - 1945" -- displayed at the event.

Anti-reform rally featured extremist images

"National Socialist Health Care, Dachau, Germany - 1945" From a blog post by the Center for American Progress' Matthew Yglesias:

protest1

protest2

"Got Good Health Care? Let me cure that for you. Stop Obamunism." From a November 5 Huffington Post slide show:

protest3

"OBAMA - Gov't TAKE OVER ... JUST LIKE NAZI GERMANY!" From the Huffington Post slide show:

protest4

Pelosi: "UnAmerican McCarthyite." From MSNBC.com:

protest5

"Maoism is not reform." From the Huffington Post slide show:

protest6

"Obama Listens to Mao, I listen to Fox News." From the Huffington Post slide show:

protest7

"KEN-YA TRUST OBAMA." From MSNBC.com:

protest8

NBC's First Read reports on "jaw-dropping signs." In a November 5 post on the rally, the MSNBC.com blog First Read reported:

Here are some of the more jaw-dropping signs seen at the rally:

  • "Get the Red Out of the White House."
  • "Waterboard Congress"
  • "Traitor to the U.S. Constitution" (Picture of Obama on sign)
  • "Un-American McCarthyite" (with picture of Pelosi)
  • "I'm the King of the World: Remember the Titanic?" (Drawing of Obama in the mold of the 'Jovial Sambo' from the Jim Crow era doing the Leo Titanic pose."

Fox News personalities aggressively promoted Bachmann's protest against health care reform bill

Fox News follows pattern of advocacy in promoting November 5 rally. Fox News and its personalities -- including judicial analyst Andrew Napolitano, contributor Newt Gingrich, hosts Gretchen Carlson, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck, and their website The Fox Nation -- repeatedly promoted Bachmann's November 5 anti-reform protest.

Fox News has repeatedly engaged in conservative advocacy by promoting protests

Fox News promoted April 15 tea parties. In the lead-up to the April 15 tea parties, which the channel repeatedly described as "FNC Tax Day Tea Parties," Fox News frequently aired segments publicizing the events and encouraging viewers to get involved. A Media Matters for America study found that from April 6 to 13, Fox News featured at least 20 segments on the "tea party" protests. A subsequent Media Matters study found that from April 6 to 15, Fox News aired at least 107 commercial promotions for its coverage of the April 15 tea parties.

Fox News promoted town hall disruptions. Fox News promoted disruptions of Democratic town hall events by protesters opposed to health care reform -- protests that were touted by Republican leaders and supported by conservative groups. Following the August 2 disruption of a town hall event hosted by Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA) and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, Fox News personalities repeatedly lauded such protesters and urged viewers to take similar action.

Fox News promoted 9-12 protests. In the lead-up to the 9-12 protest, Beck's website worked with others organizing the September 12 "March on Washington," and Beck repeatedly encouraged viewers to attend the protest. Fox News also heavily promoted the Tea Party Express tour -- the final stop of which was the 9-12 protest -- on Fox News, Fox Business, The Fox Nation, and FoxNews.com.

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    • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 05, 2009 8:13 pm ET)
      6 28
      Golly, I don't know. I mean, any clear shot you have at Fox, do take it. But guilt by association? Egads, nothing good ever comes from planting that particular seed. C'mon, MMfA. Do better.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 05, 2009 9:37 pm ET)
        5 22
        Really? Some jackass gives me a thumbs down for asking MMfA to hold themselves to the same standards they hold the media? That's who we want to be?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by captfoster2 (November 06, 2009 12:09 am ET)
          16 2
          boburell

          Let me ask you something genius...

          Can you provide a link which shows any Fox News circus act distancing itself from all this racism, sickness, un-Americanism, insanity that Fox News went out of its way to get started??

          If you can find even one... then we can all cut you slack... if not... your going to be seen as nothing more than an ignorant bug who is as pathetic and worthless as the rest of the slimy trolls who come in here with their right-wing garbage!!

          Until then Cluster Fox OWNS THIS!!!!!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 8:26 am ET)
            2 16
            Heh. Put a sign in your hand and you'd look exactly like a Tea-Bagger. Then MMfA would have to distance themselves from your ALL CAPS SCREECHING LUNACY!!!!! Get a hold on yourself.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (November 06, 2009 9:40 am ET)
              12 2
              your ALL CAPS SCREECHING LUNACY!!!!!
              Funny, as you accuse the Captain of this, the phrase you put in ALL CAPS is longer (and because of the five exclamation points you put at the end, far more "screechy" than the phrase he put in caps without the screeching.

              And his post makes sense, while yours is filled with the lunacy you accuse him of.

              Hypocrite, thy name is boburell. Heal thyself first.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 10:39 am ET)
                1 11
                Yeah...you do realize that parsing sarcasm leads to irony, right? How does calling me an ignorant bug make sense? Cuz I'll put my knowledge of current and historical events up against his (or yours) any day you'd like to get up out of the muck and start posting with reason and civility.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by captfoster2 (November 06, 2009 11:09 am ET)
                  8  
                  boburell

                  Cuz I'll put my knowledge of current and historical events up against his (or yours) any day

                  You may not want to go there with me...

                  I'm a third year history major one, two, any time you think your ready!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 11:43 am ET)
                    2 12
                    Well, golly, I guess I'll whip out mine, too. I'm a college graduate practicing a trade in my field, and I was part of a great deal of recent history during my active military career. Oh, and I have a fascination with the parallelism between ancient and contemporary events, so I read a lot. Add all that with the fact that I don't goose step to [i]anyone's[i] tune, and I think you might well be overmatched, sonny.
                    Okay, your turn to see how far you can pee.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by armadillo (November 06, 2009 12:32 pm ET)
                      11 2
                      Speaking of history: I demonstrated outside Sen. John Cornyn's office. Lots of teabaggers also showed up. We talked to a number of them. I personally engaged at least a dozen. My sign was about medical bankruptcy. NONE knew anything about that issues. I asked several of them how many personal bankruptices in the U.S. were health-related, and of those, how many HAD insurance. None - NONE - could answer! I have since learned these clueless people are called "low information voters." Since you're so smart, how do we get the history of medical bankruptcy and other issues to people like this? After I bombarded them with history, many just walked away. Why is your side so willfully ignorant?

                      Oh - we had at least 250,000 people there. HAHAHA!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 12:41 pm ET)
                        3 7
                        Mm. I hope that "Why is your side so willfully ignorant?" wasn't directed at me. I'm a pro-health care reform, card-carrying liberal, my friend.
                        As for your discussions with the tea-baggers and the 250,000 pro-health care reform demonstrators you had to back you up, represent. Thanks for taking the time to get out the word.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 2:01 pm ET)
                          5 1
                          The assumption that you're a rightwinger is incorrect - but can you blame anyone? Well, yeah, you can, you've blamed us for all kinds of other imaginary sins in this thread.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by captfoster2 (November 06, 2009 2:18 pm ET)
                          6 3
                          With your above posting I find it hard to believe that you are a liberal!

                          You know perfectly well that there is no 'guilt by association' in this.

                          Fox Noise promoted this rally! They covered it and pushed it! So did the loony right-wing Congress-people who showed up and spoke at the damn thing!

                          If people showed up with pro Fox News posters and Fox did not in any way promote the rally, then yes, I would agree with you that it would be 'guilt by association'... but that is not the case... THEY PROMOTED THE DAMN THING!

                          And that is why Cluster Fox owns this whole entire racist, vile, and un-American rally!

                          And unless you can provide a link which shows that Fox has attempted to distance itself, or any of the right-wing Congress-people there who spoke has tried to do the same... then I stand by my words about you in my earlier post!

                          Because no liberal I know would bother to try and defend Cluster Fox for its blatant lies, propaganda, and all around garbage it pushes!
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 2:44 pm ET)
                            4 2
                            Well, actually I view my posts as defending the journalistic standards MMfA espouses. I don't think you'll find me defending Fox anywhere, not in this thread, or in any other.
                            Oh, and now you're libeling me with guilt by association with that "no liberal I know...." comment. The implication being you can withhold my liberal street cred if I don't extricate myself from this argument by providing you proof that Fox distanced themselves from the rally. That's pretty much filled my irony quota for the day, my friend. Send me a postcard when you graduate....
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by open_mind (November 06, 2009 5:20 pm ET)
                              2 2
                              Boburell,

                              Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your opinion on this and you gave me a point of view I had not previously considered, but should have.

                              I think some folks around here are just a bit too quick on the defensive these days. I hope this does not continue as such defensiveness usually ultimately leads to defending the indefensible. If that day comes, the conservatives will have won by us becoming them.
                              Report Abuse
                      • Author by congero6189599 (November 06, 2009 1:47 pm ET)
                        5  
                        Although I don't agree with Bobs intial comments on this matter, I think you guys are rushing to judgement on this one. I've read some of his comments on other matters and enjoyed them...just sayin'.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (November 06, 2009 2:40 pm ET)
                  5 2
                  Cuz I'll put my knowledge of current and historical events up against his (or yours) any day
                  I'm confident enough to know I don't have to unzip my pants to compare to anyone. One day you may have that confidence, too.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by captfoster2 (November 06, 2009 11:28 am ET)
              9 3
              You are a rather pathetic character boburell

              Other than the last two words of my post... what other words are in full caps?

              It is obvious, even for a 4th grader that I was emphasizing Cluster Fox's ownership of that disgusting rally!

              I'm still waiting for a link which would prove that Cluster Fox has attempted in any way to distance themselves from that display of racism, vileness, and un-American activity!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 11:54 am ET)
                3 10
                No, it's obvious that you were screeching at me for balking at the party line. And you've decided that calling me a right-winger (huh?), slimy troll, pathetic, worthless, and genius (I'm assuming sarcasm) would either cow me into silence or impress the various persons who thought defending MMfA was worth eating one of their own. This is the tone and the words of a reasonable person? This is how you comport yourself in civil debate? You are no better than the Fox trolls who come here and bleat out uncritical screeds full of right-wing talking points. Because you do not hold yourself to a higher standard than the people at whom you lob your self-righteous contempt, you have earned a special place in the Hall of Hypocrisy usually reserved for the most ardent fans of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 12:05 pm ET)
                  7 3
                  Man, you need to get a grip. No one called you a troll - they said your attitude on this topic makes you similar to one.

                  Many of us honestly disagree with you, and you're the one who threw stones first, after your whining about getting thumbs down from people who apparently vehemently disagreed with you.

                  It's your reaction that's uncalled for here. YOU need to step back. You're the one who went off the deep end over a couple of capitalized words used for emphasis! You're the one who pulled out your c.t. first. You've gotten about as much civility as your behavior has entitled yourself to.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 12:29 pm ET)
                    3 10
                    Eckshully, I think you need to go and reread Mr./Ms. Foster's original post. The caps comment was a throwaway jab at the overwrought tone of the post, but he/she did call me pathetic, worthless and the troll phrase, "...all the rest of the slimy trolls...," clearly indicates that I am a slimy troll.
                    Yeah, I got irritated and posted a followup to point out that I'd gotten a thumbs down for calling attention to the parallel tactic used in this article with what Fox has done in the past. I've seen a proclivity on this site to march in lockstep that is as unattractive in liberals as it is in conservatives. A certain segment of MMfA regular posters have jettisoned their critical faculties and defended this site with the same fervor and lack of rationality seen in the fans of Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh who routinely post in defense of their idols here. I think that kind of irrational debate is counterproductive and, quite frankly, generally against all of the principles of logic and reason over fear and tyrrany that liberals espouse.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:53 pm ET)
                      4  
                      I don't disagree with you, Bob. Although, I have to admit I have never understood the "troll" title. Clearly, I am a little behind on internet lingo.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 2:07 pm ET)
                      4 3
                      No, his post didn't call you a troll - repeating a falsehood doesn't magically make it become true. Again, you are not behaving rationally here, and you're losing credibility with every post you continue to make.

                      You don't have a leg to stand on when you decry our lack of civility considering your behavior here, and this latest assertion that we walk in lockstep? Horrifically off base and undeserved.

                      And it would be wonderful if you could understand that the irrational debate on display here all came from you yourself.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by sodium (November 06, 2009 9:13 pm ET)
          3 3
          boburell said:"Some jackass gives me a thumbs down for asking MMfA to hold themselves to the same standards they hold the media? "



          Actually, it appears that well over twenty "jackasses" have given you the thumbs down, bob.

          And they didn't do that because of your call for journalistic integrity, they did it because you appear to be a major jackass yourself.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 05, 2009 11:31 pm ET)
        15 2
        This is what I believe.

        In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event.

        It's not guilt by association. FoxNews owns it.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 8:24 am ET)
          2 12
          DellDolly, come on. The word "associate" is in the freakin' article! I mean, yeah, Fox is evil and we all hate Fox, but we don't resort to the same tactics the other side honed to a fine edge under a certain junior senator from Wisconsin. That's the difference between us and them: we can destroy their arguments with logic and reason because their ideas are wrong. We don't have to resort to cheap tricks.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 8:33 am ET)
            9 1
            Do you think that the rhetoric that comes from FOX influences the degree of behavior witnessed?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 8:37 am ET)
              2 9
              It very well might, but those people made the choice to shamble into Washington and make fools of themselves. If we don't hold them accountable for their own actions, we leave ourselves open to charges of the same fallacy.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 8:45 am ET)
                11 2
                They're still accountable for their own actions. The issue is that "guilt by association" typically means being blamed for actions that you have no control over or responsibility for. If FOX is influencing the behavior, considering the history of past events in particular, then that does not qualify.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 10:34 am ET)
                  3 8
                  No, guilt by association is a formal logical fallacy that ties people to the ideas of the people with whom they associate. It's exactly the fallacy the MMfA decried when Fox News tied Anita Dunn to Mao because she quoted him in a speech. I'm not saying Fox isn't the root of all evil, but MMfA is engaging in exactly the same rhetorical trick for which they castigated the hate-talkers. I don't like the idea of this site devolving into a liberal equivalent of Fox Nation. I think progressives can explode conservative misinformation with valid arguments founded upon reason and logic. But surveying the weirdly passionate response to my rather mild rebuke of the above article, I find myself thinking perhaps I'm wrong.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by NiceguyEddie (November 06, 2009 10:46 am ET)
                    10 1
                    guilt by association is a formal logical fallacy

                    And it's one that precisely DOES NOT apply here. Fox promoted these, fueled these, uncritically reported on them, hosted "experts" to bloster their positions... They're not just "some group" that MMFA has just thrown in here. They're INVOLVED. And they SHOULD act more repsosibly, if they're going to claim to be a News organization.


                    Also...

                    The guy holding the "Un-American McCarthyite" sign apparently has no concept of either irony or hypocrisy. The people can only be explained in one of two ways: the Brainwashed or the Brain-Washers. It's like I always say....

                    -------------------------------------------------
                    Conservatives only come in two flavors: Evil and Stupid. One lies, the other buys.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 11:20 am ET)
                      1 8
                      You got a receipt for one of those signs with the credit card number of a Fox employee on it? You got a picture of a Fox employee holding one of those signs? Because, if you don't, what you've got is absolutely, positively, guilt by association. Because, the article doesn't just say that Fox promoted the event (given), that Fox enabled these wackos with an uncritical outlet (given), it also equates Fox with the people actually holding those awful, awful signs. That's a stretch. Saying otherwise is to devolve into an uncritical revisionist endorsement of Fox's tactics against Barack Obama (Weather Underground) Van Jones (Mumia Abu-Jamal), Anita Dunn (Mao), Ken Jennings (NAMBLA), ad nauseum. I was with MMfA on calling foul when Fox did it, and I'm disappointed that people here can't see the hypocrisy in not calling out MMfA when they do it. Oh well.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by NiceguyEddie (November 06, 2009 11:54 am ET)
                        4 2
                        MMFA:
                        In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event.

                        You:
                        it also equates Fox with the people actually holding those awful, awful signs

                        Me:
                        Now THAT'S a stretch. You have a point, from a certain POV, but I think you're saying more than MMFA actually is here. You're taking their point farter than they do.

                        -----------------------------------------------
                        Just my take.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 12:04 pm ET)
                          5 2
                          If Fox had any moral concern it would think twice before encouraging these rallies because they know that some of those attending are nothing but hateful, pathetic slugs and along with them they will carry signs like the ones here. So I do believe they have some moral responsibility, but I don't believe they are guilty of the protester's behavior by association.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by NiceguyEddie (November 06, 2009 12:35 pm ET)
                            6 1
                            I don't think you and I have ever been more in agreement, RightOn.

                            But, just as Boburell has done, you're still going farther with this than MMFA is. They never said that Fox is "guilty of the protester's behavior."

                            They said that "In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event."

                            And neither of you are really arguing against that point. You're arguing against an exaggeration of that point.

                            I really hate to call 'strawman' when you are both making such otherwise reasonable points, but...

                            (Sorry...)

                            ----------------------------------------------
                            STRAWMAN.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 12:39 pm ET)
                              1 7
                              Eddie, The headline states Fox owns the image, the body of the thread says they have "chosen" to associate itself with the nuts at the event. That is guilt by association.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by NiceguyEddie (November 06, 2009 12:46 pm ET)
                                7 1
                                Can you provide any evidence to show that Fox chose to do otherwise? Have the criticised the people who went too far? Have they EVER?

                                NO.

                                Becasue, in the minds of Fox and the avergae Fox viewer, there is no such thing as going TO FAR. There is no such thing as being "too far right" or "too conservtaive" or "too agressive in attacking Obama."

                                To them, the ends not only justifies the means, but the ideology justifies both the means AND the ends.

                                ---------------------------------------------
                                MMFA presetned thier evidence. Show me any evidence that Fox is pulling back from these @$$h*le$ and I'll take it all back.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:11 pm ET)
                                  6 1
                                  You make a good point, Eddie. I actually agree with that. If you are out there everyday promoting such an event, you do have some moral responsibility to disown those who go over the top.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:12 pm ET)
                                  2 1
                                  You make a good point, Eddie. I actually agree with that. If you are out there everyday promoting such an event, you do have some moral responsibility to disown those who go over the top.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 10:46 pm ET)
                                    2
                                  Why would we have to prove that Fox is backing away from this demonstration? You're conflating truth and validity. I'm not concerned with the truth of the article; it seems self-evident that Fox absolutely agrees with this imagery. But the argument I make is certainly not a strawman; the article above explicitly states that Fox "owns" the imagery because they chose to associate with that kind of rhetoric. You simply cannot construct a valid syllogism from that argument. You can't do it. It commits the guilt by association fallacy. Good journalism requires good argumentation. This article wasn't good journalism. That's all I was saying.
                                  Report Abuse
                          • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:54 pm ET)
                            1 1
                            "If Fox had any moral concern it would think twice before encouraging these rallies because they know that some of those attending are nothing but hateful, pathetic slugs and along with them they will carry signs like the ones here. So I do believe they have some moral responsibility, but I don't believe they are guilty of the protester's behavior by association." - rightOn

                            I agree.
                            Report Abuse
                      • Author by PSzymeczek (November 06, 2009 1:48 pm ET)
                        4  
                        Not to nitpick, but Ken Jennings is the 74-time Jeopardy champ. Kevin Jennings is the guy the RWs tried to associate with pedophilia. :)
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 2:03 pm ET)
                          1 4
                          Whoops. But, hey, who knows. Maybe this way we could indict Jeopardy with charges of owning NAMBLA....
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 11:21 am ET)
                    2 7
                    Boburell,

                    You make a great point, and kudos to your fairness here. It's a given what Fox is, partisan crap for the most part. But they did not expressly urge people to come to Washington with idiotic signs like the ones MMfA posts here. Encouraging a rally is guilt by association of encouraging a rally, but not guilty of the behavior of some of these nuts.

                    MMfA will go to any lengths to dump on Fox even when it's not warranted, and this is not.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by NiceguyEddie (November 06, 2009 12:40 pm ET)
                      5 1
                      Fox has not condemned their actions or their signs or their rhetoric. Instead, they've acted as cheerleaders for it. AT BEST, they've been silent about the offensive, un-american rhetoric being used here. Rhetoric that apparently even makes the conservtaives on this baord blanch.

                      And SILENCE on any matter is, by mosts tennant of reason and common law, sufficient to imply CONSENT.

                      So they've promoted the event, and have refused to call out or criticise the ones that went too far. This is a fcat that neither of you deny. So MMFA is right: They've chosen to associate themselves with them.

                      ------------------------------------------------
                      That they didn't explicitly tell the protetsers exactly what to paint on their signs is laughably immaterial.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 12:47 pm ET)
                        2 3
                        It's an arguable point, and I want to be careful not to defend Fox on much of this because I think they do hold some moral accountability here, as I have said. I just don't specifically hold people accountable for someone else's behavior. But I more concerned with the Republican lawmakers who won't publicly condemn this kind of extremist nuttiness. That makes me sick.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:14 pm ET)
                          3  
                          Excellent point, RightOn. And, much more important. The elected officials who spoke to and cheered on this madness should absolutely be held to account for what they encouraged. They should be called on the carpet to disown the violent and racist imagery. If they refuse to, then it can certainly be held against them in their next campaign.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by grmce (November 06, 2009 11:24 am ET)
                    2 1
                    The behaviour of FNC constitutes association with guilt rather than guilt by association. I've seen Murdoch's organisation at its best and at it's worst. The joke here in Adelaide where the whole enterprise started is that he appropriately named his company News Limited. Unfortunately his local publications are importing garbage from the right whingers that populate certain U.S. newspapers. He has also developed his own bunch of local clones. I find them all unreadable.

                    Thank God he renounced his Australian citizenship - it saves us the trouble of disowning him
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 5:39 pm ET)
                    3 2
                    It's exactly the fallacy the MMfA decried when Fox News tied Anita Dunn to Mao because she quoted him in a speech.
                    Actually, I think their point was more along the lines that they took her quote out of context. She's not "associated" with Mao, in any event. William Ayers is probably a more relevant example. But in that case, Obama didn't have any influence on Ayers' past life, and had no responsibility for it. Ayers was mainstreamed into society, and rubbed elbows with Republicans as well, so there was no guilt to be rightfully attributed to Obama.

                    What this is more like is hosting a party with drinking games, and then letting someone leave and run over someone on their way home. That driver is still responsible for their own actions, and it's not "guilt by association" to question the host's behavior as well.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 7:07 pm ET)
                      2  
                      I think you have a point, Brabs. However, I should admit that I would not fault the person who threw the party for the drunk who ran someone over. I know that today, a jury probably would find them responsible. But, I do not agree. If the driver was of age and chose to drink and drive - his host may not have been a good host by not taking his keys away - but he is not responsible for the actions of the drunk driver. In my opinion.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 7:29 pm ET)
                        3 2
                        It's not really about legal responsibility, though. I left out the factor of age for that very reason. They're creating an atmosphere that has predictable results, then they're not distancing themselves from them. They promote something, they get these nutjobs, they go and promote something else. What else are they expecting to happen? They can either quit because it's making them look bad, or they can keep up the pattern and be linked to the results. That seems fair.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by DellDolly (November 07, 2009 12:35 am ET)
                             
                          You and I made similar points at almost the same time - mine was at 5:06.

                          Oh, and we aren't painting FoxNews with the amount of culpability that the people who actually wrote the signs have. Just like we don't assign the same guilt to the bar owners who continue to serve a drunk person alcohol as we do to the drunk that then goes out and kill someone while driving! But we still make that bar owner 'own' their behavior - their choice to serve a drunk person!

                          And it's one of the few posts that I made that Boburell didn't reply to, and I notice he didn't reply to this one of yours either. I think this argument, that we hold servers of alcohol responsible because they own their own behavior is similar to saying that FoxNews owns the extremist images featured here. They knew that they were giving directions to the tinder to known arsonists.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 12:58 am ET)
                               
                            I had not noticed that post, and I think that speaks to the aptness of the comparisons.

                            At this point I just want to see the evidence that MMfA can't be saying exactly what we are. I appreciate the sentiment that MMfA should rise above those they criticize, but the argument that they aren't doing so seems weak at the moment.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 1:03 am ET)
                            1  
                            Didn't reply to this line because it didn't seem worthy of debate. Bar owners have a custodial responsibility for their impaired patrons for pragmatic reasons. The metaphor breaks down when you apply it to Fox viewers because we must, for the sake of civil discourse, assume that they are competent enough citizens to exercise the rights inherent to their franchise. When you withhold that respect for your fellow citizens, they are perfectly able to do the same to you.
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          • Author by sodium (November 06, 2009 9:17 pm ET)
            1 2
            boburell claims: "I mean, yeah, Fox is evil and we all hate Fox"

            Gee, why am I having a hard time believing this tripe?
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            • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 10:14 pm ET)
                4
              Well, I don't know. Why?
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              • Author by sodium (November 06, 2009 11:06 pm ET)
                4 1
                Ummm..it may have something to do with your obvious lack of sincerity.
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                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 11:22 pm ET)
                  1 3
                  So...you have some evidence that I've defended Fox or extolled the virtues of Fox? Would you like to ask me if I am now, or have I ever been, a member of Fox Nation, Mr. McCarthy? Or maybe you just know me so well that you can tell from that innocuous post that I am indeed a Fox sleeper agent. I mean, I do so love you on the rim of my tequila shooter....
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      • Author by albertsenj (November 06, 2009 12:53 am ET)
        12 1
        So, did I miss your objections when Palin, Hannity, Rush and O'Reilly were making such a fuss about President Obama and William Ayers?
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      • Author by The_Cat (November 06, 2009 9:49 am ET)
        8 1
        boburell, the meaning of the phrase 'guilt by association' is perhaps not perfectly clear to you. It is in fact a logical fallacy. Want an example? All right. Hitler was a vegetarian. Hitler was evil. Vegetarians are therefore evil.

        This is not a case of guilt by association, because the event was promoted by FOX Propaganda. They wished to have their names plastered all over it, and to that end they helped promote and organize it, along with a number of similar events this past year.

        Here is an article that may help.
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        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 1:00 pm ET)
          2 7
          Guilt by association fallacies (like most fallacies) take many forms, The_Cat. The fallacy here lies in the title and the premise of the above article. See, the demonstrators held signs, Fox promoted the demonstration, therefore Fox held the signs, that's the premise of this article. That's a classic guilt by association fallacy, conflating the actions of one group with another group to which it is associated. So, yeah, I understand the phrase. I did Masters work on classical and alternative rhetoric.
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      • Author by bintx (November 06, 2009 11:22 am ET)
        7  
        Fox overtly sponsored this hate fest . . . they own it . . . all of it.
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      • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:26 pm ET)
        8 1
        I agree with you bob. However, when you promote an event and the wackos come out with their racist, violent imagery and you fail to denounce any of it, you cannot be surprised when people assume you embrace such lunacy. However, I would certainly not conflate every crazy, sick sign at this rally as the opinion of Fox News. But, if Fox News had an conscience they would at least attempt to distance themselves from such madness.
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        • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 12:33 pm ET)
          6 1
          Perfectly fair assessment.
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        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 12:37 pm ET)
          3 7
          Yeah, what you said. I'm not saying Fox's role in this event was exemplary, or that they haven't in the past and won't in the future commit their resources in the pursuit of evil, but there's a very real danger of becoming what we hate, here. We don't like it when the hate-talkers smear our people with guilt by association. We shouldn't then turn around and smear them in the same fashion. Turnabout may be fair play, but it lacks class and integrity. That's all I'm saying.
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          • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:21 pm ET)
            3 1
            I could not agree more. I left the Republican party after the Clinton nonsense and broke from even voting for them after the way McCain was savaged in his campaign against G-Dub. I think it is imperative that the left does NOT stoop to the levels that the right has shrunk to. I think the most damage that Fox News and the far-right has done is to our civil discourse, which directly affects our ability to solve problems. My biggest fear is that once both sides devolve into the madness that Beck and Limbaugh pimp and pander to, we will lose any chance we have to progess as a people.

            I disagree with the left on many issues, but I have come to trust them more exactly because they have refused to get down in the much with the right - who has sold their soul to the extremist in their party. McCain lost me once he chose Palin and started going after the Wright and Ayers nonsense. I think I speak for a lot of independents when I say let me hear your ideas, save the name-calling and game of political tag for the fools who worship AM hate radio.
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          • Author by hoyden (November 06, 2009 2:32 pm ET)
            7  
            I actually disagree on your original point, but just wanted to throw my hat in the ring defending the way you've expressed yourself and tried to hold the tone of this argument a little higher.

            I agree that when you have truth and sense on your side, abandoning them to smear-tactics and unreasonableness can defeat your entire purpose.

            Yes the tactis of fox and those at this protest (which I do not view to be unrelated) are the tactics of fear, misinformation, hate and lies, and the natural response in the face of such things is a tendency to open our mouths in shock and respond with blanket statements to the effect of 'they must be stopped', but this is a form of extremism in itself and must be resisted.

            Also, I dont think that bringing people's level of education into an argument like this is helpful at all. If liberals are often accused of being the intelligencia and elitest, I think we are our own worst enemy if we start qualifying whether a person's opinion should be listened to based on the type of degree they have.

            I'm sure that some people will ignore my points based on the fact that they may be porely expressed or misspelled, but give me a break, it's 5.30am where I am, and I haven't been to bed yet.

            'Be the change you want to see in the world' means holding yourself to the standards that you would like to see everyone follow and one of those standards to my mind, is allowing a free and open discourse which doesn't devolve into a purile argument about education levels with name-calling and ganging-up, especially when the disagrement is between people who are in agreement on the main points. We have enough idiots to convert without trying to alienate those already on our side.

            Getting off soapbox, like I said, it's 5.30, i'm very tired.
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      • Author by Rizmo (November 06, 2009 12:26 pm ET)
        6 3
        "Guilt by association" is not the proper term for this, boburell - and you should know better. The guilt of Fox News regarding this protest - along with all the other sad, pathetic "tea bag" protests - is more closely related to the guilt of Charles Manson. As you might recall (gosh, I sure hope you can recall), Manson was convicted of murder even though he personally did not take part in the act of murder; he was convicted of murder based on a rule of joint-responsibility: his crazy, angry commands to kill to start a revolution were deemed just as responsible for the murder of Sharon Tate (and others) as those who physically committed the murders. This was not guilt by association; it was guilt by provocation - there is a huge difference, boburell.

        Thus, what you call Fox News' "guilt by association" is more accurately called "guilt by provocation" via joint responsibility: Fox News does not merely "report" about all these insane, right-wing protests, it also promotes them - and that act technically brings Fox News out of the realm of journalism and into the realm of activism. Thus Media Matters is correct: because Fox News actively promotes these protests on both its "news" shows and opinion shows - it all but commands its loyal (and completely brainwashed) viewers to take part in these protests - it also owns (though perhaps only partially) the images from these protests.
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        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 1:14 pm ET)
          1 9
          In indicting Fox, you exculpate the people who held (and presumably made or bought) those signs. Yeah, Fox encourage the rally, but nowhere is there an example of them endorsing those signs. I don't know, I don't watch Fox, but I can't recall a single incident where they endorsed the signs, either in this event or in the 9/12 thing. Can you?
          Fox wanted an event, sure. They promoted it and inflated its relevance and its turnout, given. But they didn't make the signs, as far as we know. They didn't explicitly encourage the conflation of health care and the Holocaust. So it's guilt by association, unless some documentary evidence emerges that directly ties Fox to those signs. To state otherwise is disingenuous.
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          • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:24 pm ET)
            3 1
            Right. Fox News clearly violated many tenets of journalism when they promote such an event as if they are a cheerleader. However, that does not mean that Ailes believes that Obama is a Nazi. Again, if Fox News had any self-respect or credibility, it would denounce the nuts who show up and make them all look loony. But, not denouncing them does not mean they agree with them.
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            • Author by congero6189599 (November 06, 2009 2:23 pm ET)
              5 1
              Tell me the difference between Faux opinators and the news section? Well there is none! The language on those signs of the protestors have been uttered by Faux news anchors and their opinionators. Why would Faux denounce something it has nutured and misinformed? The politicians who spoke,saw the signs then stayed to sign autographs afterward and encouraged them to storm congreesman offices(10 arrested@ Pelosi's office)should be ashamed and chastised for their demoguery,whether they believe what they're playing to is pointless,the results are the same. Faux is as culpable as those astro-turfers who supplied the free transportation,the talking points and the signs. This was a manufactured protest and fauxs claws are all over it.
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          • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 2:13 pm ET)
            4 2
            How is indicting Fox removing the burden of guilt from any of those who created and held the signs? Of course it's not.

            Grasping at straws, are we?

            He explained to you why you were wrong, and you went back to your same old tired argument that his explanation debunked.
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          • Author by Rizmo (November 06, 2009 2:31 pm ET)
            5 1
            "Yeah, Fox encourage[s] the rally, but nowhere is there an example of them endorsing those signs."

            They don't need to point out each and every sign individually in order to endorse the sentiments on them; Glenn Beck says virtually the same things as almost all of those signs every single night of the week and promotes participation in tea bag protests. Thus Fox News does partially own those signs.

            How can you not see the relationship, boburell? Being fair is one thing - and your attempt is noble - but the fact of the matter is that you are being willfully ignorant on this matter.
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            • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 3:22 pm ET)
              2 4
              Yeah, I do see the relationship. I'm not being willfully ignorant, I'm just not willing to tar everyone with the same brush. Yeah, Fox promoted the event and airs rhetoric with similar messages and I'm pretty sure Roger Ailes roots for the Grinch every December because he's both too stupid to learn from the past and too evil to live. Yeah, I get all that. I'm not a Fox fan. I've said in other threads that Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are not only the best thing since sliced bread, but that they're right, like, 50 bajillion percent of the time. I'm willing to put my liberal principles up against any conservative on any subject, any day. But what I'm not willing to do, what I will not ever do, is say something is right when I know that it's wrong. It's wrong for MMfA to employ the same dirty tricks we all deplore when they're used by Fox. It's wrong to get beat up by so-called liberals for stepping out and calling it as I see it. Everything posted in this thread today has only reinforced my conviction that we liberals must, must, must hold ourselves to a higher standard. To do otherwise will lead us down the same road to extremism and irrelevance we're seeing on the right. That's wrong, too.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 5:06 pm ET)
                4 3
                Oh, poor abused Boburell, who threw the first punch, and the second, and repeated debunked arguments, and put up strawman arguments.... Poor, poor, pitiful you.

                We disagree with you that it's wrong. We wholeheartedly disagree that MMFA is employing the same dirty tricks - it's not even close. You aren't getting 'beat up' because you expressed differing opinions. And that's the kind of arguing that gets you the labels you got above.

                Oh, and we aren't painting FoxNews with the amount of culpability that the people who actually wrote the signs have. Just like we don't assign the same guilt to the bar owners who continue to serve a drunk person alcohol as we do to the drunk that then goes out and kill someone while driving! But we still make that bar owner 'own' their behavior - their choice to serve a drunk person!
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              • Author by mizani7 (November 06, 2009 5:29 pm ET)
                3  
                As a liberal, i feel it my DUTY to point out those who like to instigate, employ dog whistle politics and then attempt to escape unscathed when the fruits of their labor are apparent to all.

                It's nice to have these intellectual discussions about the defintions of things, and how technically "this" or "that" "may or may not" be true. But the reality is this: if i call a group of people to rally for or against something, and EACH AND EVERY TIME i did there were the most vile and hateful messages scattered throughout, i would INSTINCTIVELY separate myself from that message. That is what any person of integrity (and any real news network)would do. Period. If i didn't, people would be absolutely right to question (1) whether or not i support this message, and (2) whether it is merely coincidence that every time i gather groups of supporters together this ugliness is on full display. FOX knows what its doing. And if we don't hold propogandists accountable for their work than we all deserve what we get in the end.
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                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 10:39 pm ET)
                  2 3
                  Didn't say Fox was good. Didn't even say Fox was innocent. I said that this article commits the guilt by association fallacy. I said that MMfA must hold itself to a higher standard or it's the pot calling the kettle black.
                  Look, the title of the article (and I'm starting to think that my fans neglected to read the goddamned thing) was Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted. The article then actually says "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from [the rally on Capitol Hill]. The article then provides a litany of abhorrent signs, and then returns to Fox and their promotion of the event. Every article on MMfA is an argument. Every argument can be broken into a syllogism.
                  So, here's the syllogism:

                    The people who held those signs believe X
                    Fox News believes X
                    Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs

                  No, Fox won't repudiate the demonstration. Even if they were inclined to do so, they can't afford to alienate their core demographic (disgruntled older white people). No, just because the syllogism is invalid, I'm not saying it's not true; those of you who have not studied classical logic can be excused for confusing the two, but at least some of you people must have gone to college. Remember? Logic is not concerned with truth or falsehood, but rather validity and invalidity. This article presented an invalid argument that may well have been true. But, true or not, valid argument is the sine qua non of journalism. Media Matters espouses a journalistic ethic. Therefore, Media Matters must present valid arguments.
                  See? That last bit was both true AND valid. Let the hazing continue....
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by benjr (November 06, 2009 11:36 pm ET)
                    2  
                    I agree with you bob. I think the issue (for me at least) is that while I think you are technically correct, I don't know if it matters. If this was the first, second, third or fourth time Fox had promoted some sort of event like this, if their news programs actually were different and not informed by their opinion programs, than maybe it would make a difference. Again, I agree with your point that we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than Fox holds itself to, but at this point I guess I just feel like Fox has brought this upon itself.
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                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 12:02 am ET)
                      2 2
                      Hey, I'm not saying don't go after Fox. I'm not even calling out individuals who want to cast aside valid argumentation to throw the kitchen sink at Fox. I'm saying MMfA, as a highly visible and eminently effective liberal watchdog, needs to remember the old adage, "He who slings mud generally loses ground."
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                  • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 11:41 pm ET)
                    2  
                    The people who held those signs believe X
                    Fox News believes X
                    Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs
                    So you're going to attribute this syllogism to MMfA and then tear it down?

                    What is there that suggests that they think that FOX and the protesters both believe "X"? That they've chosen to associate themselves with the protesters? That proves nothing about what they believe, or the degree in which they would express it.

                    Here's a scenario:FOX leads its viewers in a general direction of thought. They then promote a protest. The protesters go way over the top with the line of thought, and FOX does not make any effort to distance themselves from them. In that case, there is an "X" and a "Y" as to who believes what. That's entirely possible, and it would be completely consistent with what was said in this article. Nobody's asserting that any beliefs are identical, because it's irrelevant to the point. They can associate with the protesters because it's politically convenient, whether they look at those posters and smile or cringe.

                    Your syllogism is not an accurate reflection on what is presented here, therefore you are engaging in a straw man argument.
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                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 06, 2009 11:51 pm ET)
                        3
                      The article says that Fox associates with the rhetoric, not the protestors. The article explicitly says that because Fox associates themselves with the ideas associated with those signs, that they "own" the signs. I didn't engage in a straw man, I restated their explicit argument. I took direct quotes and then made a syllogism out of praphrased versions of those quotes. Whether or not MMfA asserts that Fox's beliefs are identical is not irrelevant, it's the definition of the guilt by association fallacy.
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                      • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 12:11 am ET)
                        2 1
                        I believe we're starting to identify the problem here.
                        Nobody's asserting that any beliefs are identical, because it's irrelevant to the point.
                        Whether or not MMfA asserts that Fox's beliefs are identical is not irrelevant, it's the definition of the guilt by association fallacy.
                        Is that the same sort of "restat(ing) of explicit argument" that you did for MMfA? What I'm saying is that the assertion you're presenting is unnecessary to make the argument that FOX "owns" the imagery. They own it because they know what kind of people show up to these protests, they continue to sponsor them, and they don't distance themselves from it. Whether they believe the exact same thing is irrelevant to that point. If MMfA were explicitly making the argument you are claiming, then the nature of the respective beliefs would be relevant.
                        The article says that Fox associates with the rhetoric, not the protestors.
                        And this is an important distinction to make, because I might have been referring to the protesters' choice of wardrobe, or what? We're talking about the rhetoric, so you can safely assume that when I say "protesters" I'm referring to their rhetoric.

                        Again:
                        Here's a scenario:FOX leads its viewers in a general direction of thought. They then promote a protest. The protesters go way over the top with the line of thought, and FOX does not make any effort to distance themselves from them. In that case, there is an "X" and a "Y" as to who believes what.
                        Now, please explain to me how that is inconsistent with:
                        In aggressively promoting Rep. Michele Bachmann's November 5 anti-health care reform rally on Capitol Hill, Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event.
                        Thank you in advance.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 12:53 am ET)
                            1
                          First, I'd like to thank you for your remarkable civility. Now, let's get into it.
                          And this is an important distinction to make, because I might have been referring to the protesters' choice of wardrobe, or what? We're talking about the rhetoric, so you can safely assume that when I say "protesters" I'm referring to their rhetoric.

                          In point of fact, assuming that you weren't conflating the man with the ideas espoused by the man was not a safe bet. Therefore, it was essential, for clarity, to clear up that point.
                          Also, you've repeatedly chosen to decouple the title from the article. That's egregious, in my opinion, because there's really not much article here. Leaving the title out of the argument sort of removes a certain context.
                          I started this flame war with one simple observation, that the article committed the guilt by association fallacy. Well, get a load of this...it also commits petitio principii (begging the question). The conclusion of this article's argument is contained in the title, "Fox News owns the extremist images...." Building a syllogism out of this article, and nothing outside of this article, requires one to assume the conclusion in the antecedent: Fox associates with the rhetoric in those signs.
                          As for the rest, I'd say that we're stuck with the fallacy of difference of terms. I say the term "owns" is an assertion that Fox is implicitly culpable for the content of those signs. This may, or may not, be true, but the argument that follows is an invalid proof.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 1:18 am ET)
                               
                            In point of fact, assuming that you weren't conflating the man with the ideas espoused by the man was not a safe bet. Therefore, it was essential, for clarity, to clear up that point.
                            Please give me a concrete example of how this supposed conflation would make a difference. The only thing I know about "the man" is their rhetoric, so I would like to know what else you imagine I could possibly be referring to.
                            Also, you've repeatedly chosen to decouple the title from the article. That's egregious, in my opinion, because there's really not much article here. Leaving the title out of the argument sort of removes a certain context.
                            I'm addressing your posts. I see the coupling of the title and the line you are fixated on, and I don't see how that affects what I wrote. I'm not sure what you're claiming I've done wrong here.
                            Building a syllogism out of this article, and nothing outside of this article, requires one to assume the conclusion in the antecedent: Fox associates with the rhetoric in those signs.
                            So MMfA specifically says that FOX is associating with the rhetoric, but that's not supposed to be taken as simply saying that they're associating with the rhetoric. Instead, it amplifies "owns" to mean something else. Whose fallacy is this?

                            You yourself provided a reason for FOX to refrain from distancing themselves from the imagery, but at the same time if MMfA points out that they "own" it, that must mean that they believe the exact same thing as the protesters. That was part of your syllogism. Are you sticking with that?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 2:07 am ET)
                                1
                              Clarifying my position viz. the rhetoric v. the man, your post seemed kind of snarky, and the general tone of the posters in this thread has conflated men and the ideas they espouse, so I didn't feel safe in assuming you weren't conflating the two. I wasn't trying to be persnickety, I was simply trying to avoid a misunderstanding.
                              On to the rest. I'm not fixating on the line, the line is key to a dearth of explicit statements about how Fox owns the imagery. The title sets out a conclusion. Can we agree on that? That the title makes a statement that demands to be supported by argument?
                              Because, if we can agree that the title is the conclusion of the argument, then we have to look within the argument for premisses. I don't see much of substance there, so I chose the two most explicit statements MMfA used to support their conclusion, e.g., the "Anti-Reform rally featured extremist images" and "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event." Now, in building a syllogism, I had to paraphrase because the premisses weren't written for that form. It's a license, sure, but I tried to be very careful to retain the meaning as I read it. That lead me to:

                              The people who held those signs believe X**
                              Fox News believes X**
                              Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs***

                              *This is my paraphrase of "Anti-Reform rally featured extremist images." I had to include the people who held the signs, though MMfA didn't mention them, because I find the implication that those people don't have any culpability in the display of that imagery offensive to my sense of fair debate. The rally was comprised of people who held signs containing imagery that they presumably accepted as truth. "The people who held those signs believed X."

                              **Paraphrased from "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event." The statement explicitly states that Fox accepts the rhetoric of those signs as truth. "Fox believes X."

                              ***Which brings us to the conclusion, "Fox News owns the extremist images featured at Capitol Hill rally it promoted." Because Fox neither endorsed the signs, bought the signs, produced the signs, nor are we presented with any evidence that Fox staffers carried the signs, one wonders how Fox can be tied to the signs by the article above. I restated the conclusion to read, "Therefore Fox News is/are the people who held those signs," because Fox is clearly being conflated with people who carried signs. What I mean is, the conclusion, explicit in the title, isn't proved in the body of the article by any other means than guilt by association.
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                              • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 7:00 am ET)
                                   
                                Clarifying my position viz. the rhetoric v. the man, your post seemed kind of snarky, and the general tone of the posters in this thread has conflated men and the ideas they espouse, so I didn't feel safe in assuming you weren't conflating the two. I wasn't trying to be persnickety, I was simply trying to avoid a misunderstanding.
                                In other words, there's no concrete example of what this conflation is supposed to mean. I was snarky precisely because the distinction was meaningless.

                                You could save yourself a lot of typing by addressing what I say. Such as:
                                So MMfA specifically says that FOX is associating with the rhetoric, but that's not supposed to be taken as simply saying that they're associating with the rhetoric. Instead, it amplifies "owns" to mean something else. Whose fallacy is this?
                                The question isn't whether MMfA is making an argument or not, it's what that argument is. You are taking the word "owns" and assigning a meaning to it.
                                **Paraphrased from "Fox News has chosen to associate itself with the offensive and extremist rhetoric emanating from that event." The statement explicitly states that Fox accepts the rhetoric of those signs as truth. "Fox believes X."
                                No, it does not. Again, you...yourself...provided a motivation for FOX to accept the signs regardless of their belief:
                                Even if they were inclined to do so, they can't afford to alienate their core demographic (disgruntled older white people).
                                This is directly relevant to the scenario I presented above, which you are required to address if you want to defend your syllogism. If there is any conceivable way for FOX to tie itself to this rhetoric without that being their original intent, then you are reading beyond what MMfA is saying.

                                You're paraphrasing what was said here through the prism of your definition of "owns". Why are they supposed to be accountable for your interpretation, when there's a perfectly understandable one available? There's a history of extreme rhetoric at these sorts of events, which goes hand-in-hand with FOX's history of promotion of the events. Whether they truly believe in what the protesters are saying or not, they have chosen to associate themselves with that rhetoric. There is nothing to show that MMfA is working from the logical construct that you've taken license in creating.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 11:34 am ET)
                                    1
                                  If there is any conceivable way for FOX to tie itself to this rhetoric without that being their original intent, then you are reading beyond what MMfA is saying.

                                  That's not logical, that's faith.
                                  You're paraphrasing what was said here through the prism of your definition of "owns".

                                  Hence was born the science of linguistics.... The article's argument, it seems to me, informs the interpretation of the word "owns." What scant text there is with which to work seems to point to an ideation of Fox having identical culpability with the people who actually brought the signs (who are not once mentioned in the text of the article; you don't find that conspicuous?). So, yeah, my argument hinges on the term, but the article seems to bolster my argument, both for what's in the text, and for what's oddly not.
                                  As for your scenario, no, no I don't have to address it. Other than to say that I think your reading of the text is more based upon an urge to exculpate MMfA from my accusation of poor journalism than an earnest exegesis.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 11:35 am ET)
                                    2
                                  If there is any conceivable way for FOX to tie itself to this rhetoric without that being their original intent, then you are reading beyond what MMfA is saying.

                                  That's not logical, that's faith.
                                  You're paraphrasing what was said here through the prism of your definition of "owns".

                                  Hence was born the science of linguistics.... The article's argument, it seems to me, informs the interpretation of the word "owns." What scant text there is with which to work seems to point to an ideation of Fox having identical culpability with the people who actually brought the signs (who are not once mentioned in the text of the article; you don't find that conspicuous?). So, yeah, my argument hinges on the term, but the article seems to bolster my argument, both for what's in the text, and for what's oddly not.
                                  As for your scenario, no, no I don't have to address it. Other than to say that I think your reading of the text is more based upon an urge to exculpate MMfA from my accusation of poor journalism than an earnest exegesis.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 12:10 pm ET)
                                      1
                                    Didn't mean to post that twice. Not sure what happened.
                                    Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 8:55 pm ET)
                                    1  
                                    That's not logical, that's faith.
                                    What is that supposed to mean? You're drawing a conclusion about what MMfA must mean without addressing alternate possibilities. How is that logical?
                                    The article's argument, it seems to me, informs the interpretation of the word "owns." What scant text there is with which to work seems to point to an ideation of Fox having identical culpability with the people who actually brought the signs (who are not once mentioned in the text of the article; you don't find that conspicuous?).
                                    So the text that is there simply says that they've chosen to associate with this rhetoric. That, somehow, "seems to point" to an unmentioned and non-implied concept of "identical culpability". I suppose if you really want your mind to go in a certain direction, you can make it point that way regardless of what is actually in the article.
                                    As for your scenario, no, no I don't have to address it. Other than to say that I think your reading of the text is more based upon an urge to exculpate MMfA from my accusation of poor journalism than an earnest exegesis.
                                    You do have to address it to support your syllogism, sorry. If those two things are not inconsistent, then your logic collapses.

                                    I don't see you specifying how my reading is in any way unjustified, except that it doesn't conform to the argument you are so attached to. If you'd like to discuss this on a logical level, try again.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 07, 2009 9:52 pm ET)
                                        2
                                      The context of this artiicle only supports one definition of the term "own," as used in the title. That is, the colloquial, i.e., culpability. "Fox owns the imagery" cannot be interpreted any other way than Fox is culpable for the imagery. Please, do try and restate that phrase, "Fox owns the imagery" in any other way. That is, any other way that doesn't add all the various caveats you issued in your scenario, but which are not contained in the text of the article. I argued using only what was in the article. Please do the same.
                                      Now, unless you can really restate that damning phrase contained within the title of this article without going outside the article itself, then you must concede that the term "own" refers to Fox's culpability. You can't make the argument, nor do I think you intend to, that the term implicates Fox in the production of those signs, either through physical or intellectual property rights. You can't really say that Fox generated all of the rhetoric contained in those signs, because it's pretty much stock stuff in the conservative blogosphere, hate-talk and right-wing print media. So the term "own" must refer to Fox's culpability viz. the actions of the persons who did produce those signs; that's guilt by association, unless you're really going to try and stick with the custodial obligation metaphor you floated up-thread. In which case, you're just flat wrong. Those people who carried the signs are not dependent upon Fox for the formulation or execution of their actions; they are not drunks in a bar, they are not arsonists seeking tinder, they are not metaphors, they are people. Deeply misguided people, but still people, fully culpable, ethically and legally, for their own actions.
                                      Now, of course, people who perpetrate evil acts concommitantly are equally culpable, but even this meaning disregards the singular concept of "own"ership. Parties can only own equal shares of culpability in equal partnership. The article, by completely neglecting to mention the individuals at the rally, put the "own"ership of the signs in the singular hands of Fox. Again, I ask you, did you not find it conspicuous that the protestors, the actual individuals who produced, brought, and carried those signs, were never mentioned in the article? That the culpability for the messages in those signs was put squarely upon Fox in the very title of this article? You don't find that odd?
                                      So, no, I don't have to address your scenario, because your scenario draws nothing from the article itself. It makes a hopeful inference based upon what you think the author of the article may have meant. It doesn't address the article, but what surrounds the article, namely your disdain for Fox and your urge to defend MMfA. But the article fails to hold anyone but Fox accountable for those signs, signs that Fox neither produced nor endorsed. They are tendered "own"ership of those images through guilt by association. Again, you're very concerned with the matter of truth or falsity, while formal logic simply does not concern itself with such things. It may be true that Fox is culpable for those signs; it is not a valid argument, as presented.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (November 08, 2009 6:06 am ET)
                                           
                                        The context of this artiicle only supports one definition of the term "own," as used in the title. That is, the colloquial, i.e., culpability.
                                        Why is that? The text specifies willful association with actions, but the only possible definition is "equal culpability"?
                                        Now, of course, people who perpetrate evil acts concommitantly are equally culpable, but even this meaning disregards the singular concept of "own"ership. Parties can only own equal shares of culpability in equal partnership. The article, by completely neglecting to mention the individuals at the rally, put the "own"ership of the signs in the singular hands of Fox. Again, I ask you, did you not find it conspicuous that the protestors, the actual individuals who produced, brought, and carried those signs, were never mentioned in the article? That the culpability for the messages in those signs was put squarely upon Fox in the very title of this article? You don't find that odd?
                                        In what manner are the people holding signs supposed to be commented upon? Do we not know that the signs are being held by people? Are they supposed to mention them by name? I have no idea what you expect to be added by this, so I'd like to see a specific example of what you think they should have done. The failure to do so does not imply that they weren't culpable for their own actions, anyway. There is no logical basis for that.
                                        So, no, I don't have to address your scenario, because your scenario draws nothing from the article itself. It makes a hopeful inference based upon what you think the author of the article may have meant.
                                        It doesn't have to draw anything from the article. You are asserting meaning. If there is an alternate possibility which is consistent with the text, then you can not fairly make that assertion. Please explain to me how you can disagree with that. If you say something and some right-wing troll asserts you meant something, then I'm not allowed to point out that you might mean something else? That is logical on my part. What they're saying may be true, but they wouldn't have the means to draw their conclusion. Besides that, I'm addressing the "association" line that is in the article. How you can suggest that this is some blind defense is a mystery.

                                        I've criticized MMfA before, and I've defended FOX as well. I'm not going to do it based on your arbitrary and convenient definitions, though. You may note that I'm not drawing any conclusions about your motivation for your argument, I'm simply addressing your reasoning. You, for some reason, feel a need to smear me as being "hopeful" and having an "urge" for making a defense.

                                        So who is "logical", and who is emotional?
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by n'est-ce pas (November 08, 2009 1:21 pm ET)
                                            1
                                          I think we're talking at cross purposes, Brabantio. I'm talking about formal Aristotelean logic, and you've been working with some kind of ad hoc reasonable doubt paradigm. You have yet to construct an alternative syllogism, and I think that's because, if your scenario is any indicator, you don't really want to address what's in the article; your scenario hinges upon an enthymeme that is never evoked, even incidentally, in the text. I'm working off of a textual exegesis; you're just...not. You're talking about motive and authorial intent, which are aspects I am trained to ignore as irrelevant and impossible to divine except as speculation. Notice I never spoke of MMfA's intent, in this article. I only spoke of what was written and the most reasonable interpretation of the article's two premisses and the conclusion, which is found in the article's title. These things are actually there. We don't have to assume inference from text that isn't on this page in order to evaluate the validity of my construct. Your scenario, however, speaks to the ephemeral, the premise of which we find nowhere. That is sophism, not logic, and while you may be correct with your speculation, you aren't logical.

                                          So, other than the few comments that equivocated the term "logic" with "[un]emotional," (this isn't Star Trek) I enjoyed this debate, but see no purpose in continuing it. We're not even arguing about the same thing. Thank you for taking the time and effort to conduct a civil discussion. I appreciate that a great deal.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (November 08, 2009 7:25 pm ET)
                                            2 1
                                            I'm talking about formal Aristotelean logic, and you've been working with some kind of ad hoc reasonable doubt paradigm.
                                            In other words, you can't address my point.

                                            You are speculating. That's my issue with your syllogism. I don't have to submit an alternate syllogism, because I'm not making any claim as to what their construct is. Maybe they were thinking what you say, but you don't have anything to support it outside of your assumptions. It may be true, but it's not valid. Seriously, you're hinging your argument on the "conspicuous" nature of MMfA's failure to mention the individuals protesting, while instead mentioning the messages of protesters (who would, by definition, be the people protesting). By this nefarious action, they are removing culpability from these people, I suppose because they hope the reader will imagine the signs moving around on their own, as if held by ghosts. If that's an unfair interpretation, you should have expanded on that idea, because it makes exactly zero sense as you twice expressed it.

                                            I'm just not impressed with words, I want to see coherent arguments. No matter what school of philosophy you're working from, you can not get around the fact that a valid alternate possibility precludes you from stating another possibility as "explicitly" established. You have to show how that alternate possibility is inconsistent with the title and/or text, otherwise you have no way of knowing which scenario was actually played out. You can throw all the terminology you like at me, but it does not change the logical nature of my argument.

                                            You're not denying that FOX influenced the protesters. You admit that they could have a motive for remaining quiet about these signs which has nothing to do with agreement or approval. If you said that it strikes you as inappropriate, that they might be guilty of guilt by association depending on how they are defining "owns", that would be fair. What I don't accept is your wild assumptions from very little text while chastising me for presenting an alternate scenario which was not specified in the text. I don't accept the arrogance of stating that MMfA's article is expressed with a syllogism and anyone who points out the uncertain nature of that syllogism isn't logical. I do not accept accusations of dishonest behavior because I "chose" to separate the title from the text, however I supposedly did so while responding to your specific comments. I do not accept charges of bias simply because I'm disputing your baseless assertions as the self-proclaimed lord of logic (appeal to authority, by the way). I do try to conduct a civil discussion, but I will not accept your continuous assault on my senses of logic and objectivity, and I expect you to behave better in the future.

                                            There is no world in which my arguments don't apply. If we're talking at cross purposes, it's because you've gone off the tracks.
                                            Report Abuse
    • Author by my4cents (November 05, 2009 8:22 pm ET)
      10 4
      The last image on Kenya was pretty amusing.
      Frighteningly stupid but amusing.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by dave (November 05, 2009 8:23 pm ET)
      3 17
      Kind of a stretch, MMFA. FOX owns nothing for the free expression of guests at their party. It would be like the Chicago Bulls taking ownership of Dennis Rodman's outfits.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (November 06, 2009 11:24 am ET)
        9 2
        Fox actively promoted this hatefest. They own it.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:35 pm ET)
        6 1
        You don't think the Bulls are associated with the things their players do on the court? That's simply naive.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by doglover (November 05, 2009 8:26 pm ET)
      13 1
      These images just prove the lunacy of these folks.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by dave (November 05, 2009 9:15 pm ET)
        1 21
        Wait a minute. These folks are loony? Do you not remember the hippies who protested everything under the sun, even if they were so stoned they didn't remember it the next day? These guys just made signs...they didn't smoke them.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (November 05, 2009 9:24 pm ET)
          13 2
          I lived through that era. I appreciate the wingnut urg to tear down any thing about that counterculture from the 60's. After all this time its still scary to you.
          Any other hippy mthyology you'd care to share with us?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by loislap (November 05, 2009 9:32 pm ET)
            17 1
            I grew up in the 1960's and remember people protesting a terrible endless war and marching for civil rights and equality etc.
            I don't however,remember anything near as disgusting and disgraceful as the signs at today's tea bag gathering.
            The weirdest thing is how completely over the top this all has become.To invoke the memory of Nazi death camps and open graves because Obama wants a public health option?These folks truly are "loony" with a capital "L".
            Report Abuse
          • Author by dave (November 05, 2009 9:33 pm ET)
            1 20
            That time wasn't scary to me. I was too old to get drafted, and had already did my time, but sat in disbelief that the major networks would even attempt to interview these meatheads...they never knew what they would say next. And some of it, while drug induced, was actually comical. Counterculture? Hardly, excuse to party....yup.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by eweston8542983 (November 05, 2009 11:16 pm ET)
              12 1
              While there was no shortage of meatheads in that era. There was a lot of excellant things done by intelligent perceptive people. Common as mud people. People who stood up to the American Machine and said NUTS, and made it stick.
              As far as drug induced people, the drug of choice on Wall Street in the late 70's was LSD. Trickle Down Economics certainly would seem to be evidence of some mind altering drug.
              The media still has not digested and regurgitated what happened in the sixties either.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (November 05, 2009 9:31 pm ET)
          7 1
          Weren't they all about peace and love?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Brabantio (November 05, 2009 10:31 pm ET)
          10 1
          So hippies were stoned. What's the excuse for these people?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Tiredog (November 06, 2009 10:28 am ET)
            8  
            They're brain dead?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 11:10 am ET)
              13
            Maybe they're mad at having to pay more in taxes and giving the Govt more control over the private sector? Last I checked, we were somewhat still a capitalist society.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (November 06, 2009 11:47 am ET)
              9  
              Maybe they're mad at having to pay more in taxes

              The only problem with that is that they're NOT paying more in taxes.

              the Govt more control over the private sector?

              I guess you forgot about that little thing called the economic meltdown caused by lack of oversight by the government on the private sector.

              Please, next time, try harder.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:37 pm ET)
          5  
          Dave, I think maybe they should smoke some weed. Maybe, then they would relax and do some introspective thinking. Perhaps realize how ridiculous their non-issues are. Maybe even come around to discussing actual issues that need to be resolved.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by infrared (November 05, 2009 9:19 pm ET)
        13
      I attened this event. I walked from both sides of the Capital. The time spent was looking at a lot of signs, hearing people and watching them. Maybe I missed all the signs that show up in these photos, but I didn't see any of the ones that are referenced. Digital cameras and Photoshop are great tools.
      Nor did I see any "whack jobs". I did see young and old, blacks and whites, Jews and non-Jews, Latinos and just plain old WSAPS.
      In otherwords, I saw Americans.
      And just so someone thinks I am going to hide behind a comment and not ID myself. My name is SJ Sanor. I live in Alexandria, VA. I am the only one in the phone book.
      And no, I don't want the gov. using "health care" as an excuse to take over my rights. I spent too many hours serving aboard a submarine to hand over my property to the Democrates to shell out to their voters.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (November 06, 2009 9:36 am ET)
        11  
        Wow. Blind, ignorant, illiterate, and ill-informed.

        You're exactly the audience the teabaggers attract. Because if you knew anything about anything, you would know that you have no idea what you are talking about.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 12:17 pm ET)
          7  
          I know, right. Because he didn't see these signs, they didn't exist. Someone photoshopped them, because, well, that's the slimy people we are, don't you know, just the kind of people who would photoshop signs like this......

          The people in America who have the best health care, whose healthcare actually DOES beat the rest of the world? That'd be the people on Medicare. Everyone over 65. The plan that's run without hardly any overhead.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (November 06, 2009 11:49 am ET)
        8  
        I don't want the gov. using "health care" as an excuse to take over my rights

        What rights will be taken over by the government? I would look up the definition of the word "option" if I were you.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:39 pm ET)
        8  
        How do you know you saw Jews and non-Jews, infrared? Just curious how you spotted that out in the crowd without noticing any inappropriate signs.

        Why do we care what your name is? We do not know you personally.

        If you were at this rally and the guy to your right was not a "whackjob" and the guy to your left was not a "whackjob", it may be possible that you were the "whackjob". Just a thought.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by loislap (November 05, 2009 9:20 pm ET)
      10 1
      Let's not miss the point MM is making here.
      FOX in aggressively promoting this,must therefore "own" i.e. "take responsibility" for the outrageous and hysterical tone of this event.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by dave (November 05, 2009 9:49 pm ET)
        2 18
        And their point is weak one. Do the NY Jets take ownership of fans' behavior?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Brabantio (November 05, 2009 10:26 pm ET)
          11 1
          If it was the first time they promoted an event and we saw signs like this, I would buy that. I think the fact that we've seen this before makes a difference. At what point can we expect a responsible entity to stop promoting events where extremists habitually cast clouds over them? Are we supposed to think that they have Beck's Mao/Hitler rhetoric influencing their viewers, and they promote protests, and then when people show up with signs about Mao and Hitler that they're really flummoxed as to where on earth those people came from? There's certainly some connection there.

          There's no way of proving that any particular person was inspired by FOX as opposed to other sources, but it's unseemly. Wouldn't you agree that even a biased outlet should make an effort to distance themselves from extremist elements, just for the sake of appearances if nothing else?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 05, 2009 11:28 pm ET)
            1 18
            You know, Brabantio, I don't watch Fox, I don't listen to Beck, and I think Obama is a socialist. He has lots of people working for him who revere Mao and Castro and Che. Those men were communist thugs, murderers. They are the heroes of our present administration. Evil men. Pure and simple.
            The Dems health-care policies will bring about the ruination of the finest health care system in the world, with increased costs, poorer service and the end of innovation.
            What the Dems are trying to do to health-care ultimately has nothing to do with creating a better health-care system, or improving the lot of people. It is about control. Pure and simple.
            It is evil. Pure and simple.
            Blame it on Fox if you want. It is the truth. Pure and simple.
            Oh, by the way, did protest become unpatriotic on January 22?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (November 05, 2009 11:50 pm ET)
              14 1
              You know, Brabantio, I don't watch Fox, I don't listen to Beck, and I think Obama is a socialist.
              I'm a few steps ahead of you:
              There's no way of proving that any particular person was inspired by FOX as opposed to other sources, but it's unseemly.
              He has lots of people working for him who revere Mao and Castro and Che.
              This is based on what, exactly?
              The Dems health-care policies will bring about the ruination of the finest health care system in the world, with increased costs, poorer service and the end of innovation.
              If you take the profit motive out of the equation, why would costs go up? Why would innovation cease? And on what basis do we have the "finest" health care system?
              What the Dems are trying to do to health-care ultimately has nothing to do with creating a better health-care system, or improving the lot of people. It is about control. Pure and simple.
              It is evil. Pure and simple.
              Is that why all those other industrialized countries have public health care? What benefit does this "control" provide? Let's look at some realism here. My wife wouldn't have been fired from her job for having a heart condition if we had public health care, because her employers would have had nothing to lose by keeping her on. She would also be able to afford the requisite post-operative testing, or at least be able to get insurance for her "pre-existing condition" (which was not pre-existing for the insurance she lost along with her job...see how well that works out for insurance companies and profit-focused employers?) So you can take your "nothing to do with...improving the lot of people" and shove it. Her case is not isolated, and it is not trivial.
              Oh, by the way, did protest become unpatriotic on January 22?
              No. If there's a legitimate complaint, then express it. But going on and on with nonsense about communists and "evil" does not reflect any sense of legitimacy. It comes off as lunacy, pure and simple.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 06, 2009 1:14 pm ET)
                  11
                So, would your wife prefer to be in England where they would probably let her die, depending on her age? Where will the Canadians go for health care when ours becomes like theirs?
                Why would anyone be motivated to invest millions of dollars in research if there is no return? The government does not produce anything. It only costs. Add 119 layers of bureaucracy to any system and see if the costs don't rise.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by John Paradox (November 06, 2009 1:24 pm ET)
                  7  
                  So, would your wife prefer to be in England where they would probably let her die,

                  Like Stephen Hawking?
                  [strawman fallacy]

                  Why would anyone be motivated to invest millions of dollars in research if there is no return?

                  Much research is done at Universities, thus creates profit for companies because they have small R & D budgets.

                  Add 119 layers of bureaucracy to any system and see if the costs don't rise.

                  Simple exaggeration.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 1:52 pm ET)
                  5  
                  "So, would your wife prefer to be in England where they would probably let her die, depending on her age? Where will the Canadians go for health care when ours becomes like theirs?" - ed

                  That is so idiotic and ill-informed it is almost offensive. Canadians do NOT come to the United States for healthcare. It is simply ridiculous. They like their healthcare. Their most famous citizen of all time is Tommy Douglas. He was voted the Greatest Canadian of all time by their own people. I know you have no idea who that is, but you should since you are making such a fool out of yourself. Canadians actually get insurance before they come here just in case they have a medical emergency in our country. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 06, 2009 11:57 pm ET)
                      2
                    They don't have insurance out of Canada - so they buy protection while they are here. But it is absolutely false that Canadians don't come to the United States for medical attention that they either cannot get in Canada, or have to wait for months to get.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (November 06, 2009 5:16 pm ET)
                  3  
                  So, would your wife prefer to be in England where they would probably let her die, depending on her age?
                  "Depending on her age" is a highly significant part of that question. She was 40 at the time of the surgery. Do the English let 40-year-old people die from heart disease?

                  And if she was 80 or something like that, she wouldn't want there to be great expense to save her anyway. So I'm not seeing where this point leads you, exactly.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by The_Cat (November 06, 2009 10:04 am ET)
              10  
              Innovation, huh, edrossinoelwein9669? Is that why, as soon as the first confirmed cases of swine flu surfaced around the world, our vaunted pharmaceutical companies immediately began working on a vaccine? Because that's what we're always told. "We need our obscene profits because it's what pays for research and development of new drugs!" Uh-huh. Except, they didn't begin working on a vaccine until the CDC told them maybe they should get off their thumbs and start doing a little research, did they?

              Oh, wait! It's not because of research, it's to make sure that the pharmaceutical companies have the very latest and most efficient means of producing their products, to get them to market in an inexpensive and expeditious manner, right? Well, no, as it turns out, that's not the case either. Why are we waiting on H1N1 vaccine? Because of antiquated production methods. And, who is paying for the development of more modern means of producing vaccines? You guessed it! The U.S. Government. Solutions that will likely be given freely to big pharma funded by your taxdollars, so they can pocket ever growing profits for themselves.

              This is your private health care industry, working hard to keep your money. And, at the cost of higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you're arguing in their favor, as thought the big insurance companies needed or wanted your help, or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.

              A public option means competition for the for-profit insurance companies, encouraging efficiency and lowering costs.

              '...the finest health care system in the world..." is a phrase with little meaning if you cannot afford it. It's like telling someone who is starving to death we grow the finest food. Or telling someone who is homeless we build the best houses.

              Will there be some control over private insurance? You bet. So that the average American can't be dropped for a pre-existing condition, like having acne as a kid. In other words, to do what government is supposed to do, which is protect American citizens from predation by industries grown so huge and powerful that, in most of the country, there isn't even any competition.

              You can think Obama is a socialist if it keeps you warm at night. What you cannot do is prove it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 10:27 am ET)
                1 12
                ...or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.



                Are you referring to the insurance industry or the Govt?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by The_Cat (November 06, 2009 10:41 am ET)
                  8  
                  And thank you, dave, for showing us the dangers of taking quotes completely out of context. You should work for FOX Propaganda! Let me help you clear this 'mystery' up, mmkay?

                  And, at the cost of higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you're arguing in their favor, as thought the big insurance companies needed or wanted your help, or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money. [emphasis added]


                  See what happens when you put it back in context? Everything becomes much simpler. I realize you live in a FOX Propaganda sound bite driven world, and complex sentence structure can seem daunting, but I think you can puzzle it out if you just give it a little more thought.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 11:05 am ET)
                      11
                    I put the dots in front of it. I didn't crop a quote. But thanks Einstein. You have an amazing grasp of the obvious.


                    I'm guessing that you have no problem giving the Govt any amount in taxes that they wish, fine. Higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you should take that up with BO, he's in charge. How many have died from H1N1 now? BO hates children. lol
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by The_Cat (November 06, 2009 11:29 am ET)
                      8  
                      Had you not taken such a misleadingly small phrase out of a complete sentence, there would have been no question that I was in fact referring to the insurance companies, dave. And, yes, the quote you gave did not accurately represent the thought from which it was taken. But, you knew that.

                      I'm not in favor of giving the government any amount in taxes, and it is dangerous to assume, dave. Higher premiums and higher death tolls and fewer Americans covered is what you're getting under the current health coverage system.

                      I've explained that the waning supplies of H1N1 vaccine are directly attributable to the companies that actually make it, and the century old methods they still use, and not the government. If you have any proof that President Obama hates children, feel free to cite it. Just like all the 'evidence' Beck supplied when he called our president a racist. Exactly none.

                      We currently pay twice the amount other countries pay for health insurance. Countries paying half what we pay are getting better health outcomes. So, actually, it would seem that you have no problem giving any amount of money to already grotesquely wealthy corporations, based on your staunch support of their right to profit over the dead bodies of 45,000 Americans each year.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 12:24 pm ET)
                      6 1
                      The fact that you showed that it came from a longer thought (with an ellipsis, not "with dots") doesn't mean that you didn't crop the quote, dum-dum. You cropped the quote!!!

                      Cropping a quote means taking a portion of what someone says out of context. You did exactly that.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by John Paradox (November 06, 2009 1:30 pm ET)
                      5  
                      verb (cropped, cropping) cut very short or trim off the edges of.

                      ORIGINAL:This is your private health care industry, working hard to keep your money. And, at the cost of higher premiums, higher death tolls, and fewer Americans covered, you're arguing in their favor, as thought the big insurance companies needed or wanted your help, or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.

                      CROPPED: ..or were doing anything but laughing at you while they spent your money.

                      ARGUEMENT: I put the dots in front of it. I didn't crop a quote.

                      'the dots' are an ellipsis, correctly 'dot-space-dot-space-dot'
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 06, 2009 12:48 pm ET)
                  8
                Is it true that fewer people have died of the flu this season than average in the US? The average # of deaths per year in the US is estimated by the CDC to be 36,000. So far there have been (conservatively estimated) 5,000 deaths from H1N1 world-wide!
                http://www.nowpublic.com/health/swine-flu-mortality-rate-climbs-5-000
                This is a 'manufactured' epidemic.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 2:21 pm ET)
                  4 1
                  Flu season isn't even in full swing yet, so we don't know what the season will look like. We know that it stuck around during the summer, unlike most flus do - most go into hiding, with only a very few people infected to carry the bug around to the winter.

                  And the issue isn't how many will be killed by this flu - overall, for MOST people, it's a mild flu.

                  The problem is who it kills that normal seasonal flu doesn't kill. Healthy people. Pregnant women. Little kids.

                  Because of that disparity, there's greater concern.

                  If we can vaccinate enough people, then fewer people will be able to infect someone who might get really sick or die from the disease.

                  Do you want to be the person who gets a mild case of the flu because you refused to get vaccinated, and then you infect someone before you even know that you're coming down with that flu, and then have that person's illness or death on your conscience? I don't. You shouldn't, when all you would have had to do is get immunized when the vaccine becomes available.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (November 06, 2009 11:27 am ET)
              6  
              LOL!!!!

              Nothing you posted was "the truth."

              And, if I'm not mistaken, protesting became unpatriotic about 8 years ago.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (November 06, 2009 11:52 am ET)
              7  
              and I think Obama is a socialist.

              The only problem with that is that Obama is NOT a socialist.

              He has lots of people working for him who revere Mao and Castro and Che

              No, he doesn't.

              They are the heroes of our present administration.

              No, they're not.

              The Dems health-care policies will bring about the ruination of the finest health care system in the world,

              Correction - we have the best health CARE in the world, but only the 37th best health care SYSTEM in the world.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 06, 2009 1:00 pm ET)
                  7
                The Democratic rubric is to treat the the seriousness of the charge, not its accuracy. Being called a 'socialist' must be something really nasty, if the defense is so adamant (and completely lacking in documentation). Your inability to admit the truth about the socialism of Obama and the Democratic party is not my problem.
                As to the US being #37 - http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/popular-ranking-unfairly-misrepresents-the-us-health-care-system/
                The WHO report is biased against free market systems.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by congero6189599 (November 06, 2009 2:55 pm ET)
                  5  
                  that was utterly ridiculous. You cons will pull out anything no matter how ridiculous to support your view. It is really becoming annoying.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
                  4  
                  All we ask is that you actually understand the terms you use. It makes you look ignorant and it makes us waste more time explain 7th grade civics terms to an adult. Socialism is when the government controls the means of production. Got it?
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by John Paradox (November 06, 2009 1:21 pm ET)
              5  
              Oh, by the way, did protest become unpatriotic on January 22?

              If you mean in 2001, yes.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by slowtyper (November 06, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
              5  
              for someone who doesn't watch fox or listen to beck..you sure have their talking points down pat..pretty sure you're not being completely honest here..just sayin'
              Report Abuse
            • Author by sodium (November 06, 2009 9:25 pm ET)
              3  
              edrossinoelwein9669 screeched: "I think Obama is a socialist. He has lots of people working for him who revere Mao and Castro and Che. "


              Well at very least you got to hand it to Obama.

              He has single-handedly forced wing nuts to get out their reference books and learn where countries such as Kenya are, as well as having getting the nuts to learn how to spell words such as Marxism, Socialism, Mao, Castro and Che.

              No i m b e c i l e left behind!
              Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (November 05, 2009 10:56 pm ET)
          11 1
          Do the NY Jets take ownership of fans' behavior?
          That's a really dumb analogy. If the NY Jets encouraged the behavior of their fans and promoted it the way Fox promotes and encourages the moronic teabaggers, of course the Jets would own their behavior. You can't really be that stupid, can you?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Eric_Arthur_Blair (November 06, 2009 1:10 am ET)
            9  
            I know of two baseball teams (the Cleveland Indians and the Milwaukee Brewers) who separately sponsored promotions at home ballgames called 10ยข Beer Night. Both teams ended up having to apologize for the chaos caused by all the drunken fans; so, yes, there are precedents where the behavior was encouraged by the ball clubs.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 10:34 am ET)
              10
            You might have something if you can find where Fox encouraged them to make signs the have a negative image of the President. But they didn't. Beck, Hannity, et all just encouraged them to go, just like the NY Jets do. Just come to the game....just come to the rally. My analogy is perfect. And I don't even think you're stupid, I just think you have anger issues.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by right ON (November 06, 2009 11:24 am ET)
                11
              It's a great analogy. This is just more liberal emotion crippling good sense. Whenever Fox is involved liberals ditch common sense and go for the jugular, because it just feels good. Even if there is no evidence or reason to do so.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (November 06, 2009 11:29 am ET)
              8  
              Legally, if someone promotes an event, they can be held liable for activities which occur at said event. Fox ACTIVELY and OVERTLY promoted this hate fest. They own it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 11:53 am ET)
                  9
                OK fine. Who got hurt at the event, other than BO's ego? Try to collect on that, counselor.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by blk-in-alabam (November 06, 2009 1:51 pm ET)
                  4  
                  A USA census worker 9-12-09 in Kentucky,killed grave yard dead near a grave yard.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 2:41 pm ET)
                  4  
                  Legally, if someone promotes an event, they can be held liable for activities which occur at said event. Fox ACTIVELY and OVERTLY promoted this hate fest. They own it.

                  But no one is trying to collect damages, so your argument is a strawman. The problem is the ownership of the images. They are guilty of that.
                  Report Abuse
        • Author by blk-in-alabam (November 06, 2009 10:32 am ET)
          7  
          If someone got hurt at a NY Jets game because of fans behavior.There would be a long line of lawyers ready willing,and able to sue the NY Jets for that.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 06, 2009 12:42 pm ET)
          6  
          If Jets fans are carrying signs of the opposing players that depict racist or violent imagery then the stadium security would not allow that sign to be shown in their stadium. Nice try, but all you have proven is that the NY Jets have more of a conscience than Fox News.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (November 06, 2009 2:33 pm ET)
          3  
          Yes, they do!
          Report Abuse
    • Author by ssbobbyh (November 05, 2009 9:27 pm ET)
      7  
      Fox News isn't guilty for making the signs...

      ...They just stopped short of handing them poster board and markers...

      I think the "Obama listens to Mao, I listen to FoxNews" pretty much sums up the "news" organization's role...

      These are the sheep and FoxNews has the Far-Right Staff...
      Report Abuse
    • Author by saintcroix (November 05, 2009 9:54 pm ET)
      5  
      Attracting this kind of vermin to a rally is nothing new for Michele Bachmann. Here's a shot of one of her supporters at a Michele Bachmann-led anti-gay hate rally on the steps of the Minnesota State Capitol a few years ago:

      http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/31862777_89b3bfe886.jpg
      Report Abuse
    • Author by bwither012965 (November 05, 2009 11:07 pm ET)
      5  
      Is that Ron Paul's signature on the Ken- Ya sign next to Steve King's?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by jrbuder (November 05, 2009 11:47 pm ET)
      10 1
      I heard Bachman on the radio today saying that the disgusting signs alluding to the Holocaust, etc. were actually being held by "plants" from ACORN and SEIU. The woman is unbelievable. #$%$@$!)&%^RW!!!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by oscar the grouch (November 05, 2009 11:49 pm ET)
      1 6
      Who takes ownership of the 9 arrested at liebermann's office?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by bwither012965 (November 06, 2009 8:44 am ET)
        8  
        The group that organized it, with would be Healthcare NOW.

        Just like Fox helped organize the clusterfox that showed up at DC yesterday.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (November 06, 2009 9:47 am ET)
        7  
        Who takes ownership of the 9 arrested at liebermann's office?
        Do you really not know the answer to that question? And do you not know the meaning of the phrase "false equivalence?"

        What major news network (legitimate or otherwise) promoted and encouraged the behavior those who were arrested at Sen Lieberman's office? I think you know the answer to that one: none of them did.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dave (November 06, 2009 11:20 am ET)
          1 8
          How did Fox encourage the "behavior"? They simply asked viewers to show up. If you can find a link to any member of Fox that advised to bring signs that were, shall we say, less than complimentary to the President, let me know. And the KEN-YA one was funny. Fox has nothing in this other than being a means to get date/time/place out.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (November 06, 2009 11:56 am ET)
            9  
            How did Fox encourage the "behavior"?

            By calling Obama a socialist, marxist, communist, racist, America-hating, Kenyan-born madrasa educated muslim extremist who wants to take over the country using ACORN-trained youth Nazi volunteers.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by davidmlipman2801 (November 05, 2009 11:53 pm ET)
      7  
      All the humorous comments below, and the ones not so humorous, are just fine, but as a descendant or relative of maybe over 100 people who did not survive what is depicted in that picture I am hugely offended and angered by it's use, irrespective of how I feel about the currently proposed reforms.
      About 45,000 Americans died in Korea. 58,000 died in Viet Nam. I think 48,000 died between October, 1944 and March, 1945 just in the Philippines. Show me a picture of an Iraq war protester holding up a picture of a dead American soldier.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by SLRTX (November 06, 2009 12:59 am ET)
      7  
      I must admit. It took me a few moments to understand what MMFA was saying with this post, but I think I see it now.

      We saw similar signs at the tea party rallies, but the organizers tried to explain them away as "small fringe groups" in an otherwise normal crowd.

      But, these images at this rally can't be waved off so easily. This was a Bachmann-Fox gig. Just view all the posts MMFA has that shows how Fox promoted this.

      These aren't fringe elements in an otherwise normal crowd. The crowd IS the fringe element.

      And, they're being riled up by the GOP and Fox.

      Legal protesting, but very disturbing.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by SLRTX (November 06, 2009 1:08 am ET)
        6  
        Once again, the GOP acts like they had nothing to do with this country's debt issues. They're shameless con artists, using ignorant weird people to do their dirty work.

        They'd rather spend their time playing to this crowd, instead of working on HC reform. Shameful behavior by politicians.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by bluestate69 (November 06, 2009 5:25 am ET)
      7  
      all of these rallies have been "i'm proud to be a republican" and "i hate democrats" gatherings. what is the news story here. that we have republicans in this country, and that they don't like obama because he's a democrat? this is plain obstructionism at it's worst. the republicans didn't like the results of the 06' and 08' elections, so they're protesting. i didn't like bush and his policies, but i accepted his presidency for the sake of the nation. it's as if they're saying "no, you don't get your turn democrats"!!! worst of all is that THE MEDIA COVERS ALL OF IT!!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by WitchyD (November 06, 2009 10:34 am ET)
      6  
      Fox News has gone way beyond even being considered a reputable news agency.

      News is supposed to be impartial, reporting on protests, not organizing them!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by songspiritUSA (November 06, 2009 11:25 am ET)
          8
        Michelle Bachmann is an elected representative. She called for the rally. Barack Obama issues calls for a number of items and encourages citizens to get involved.

        What's the problem? The fact that there's at least one news outlet left that reports on conservative calls to action?

        I lived through the 1960s, and reporting on protests and calls to protest were regular events. It's called being objective. I was also a part of the mid-1980s anti-South Africa protests at UC Berkeley, and remember Mario Savio and others calling for people to show up.

        The people DID show up. C-SPAN has the entire rally, without commentary, on their site. I'd like to see any of you who protest the rally actually talk about the points made without name-calling or generalizations. Our Founders encouraged citizens to speak up and protest the actions of an out-of-control, non-responsive government. Name-calling isn't going to win this debate. But FREEDOM will win out.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 12:33 pm ET)
          6 2
          They didn't simply show the rally, though. They promoted it.

          NO legit news organization promotes partisan hate-fests.

          And your offensive strawman argument that it's MY side that can't discuss the issues revolving around healthcare without name-calling or generalizations? Did you see the signs here? It's your side.

          YOU own those people, not me. You own the people who are misleadingly talking about death panels when they don't exist, for example. It's your side who makes the debate difficult, when we should be talking about how great an idea it is to give patients end-of-life counselling that's paid for by Medicare.

          Your obnoxious assumption that we don't want healthy debate is really off target - it'd be your side that stymied that during Bush's term!!! We welcome protests too, just not ones sponsored by the media and that have such vitriol for people who disagree with them.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by SLRTX (November 06, 2009 4:41 pm ET)
          3  
          songspiritUSA --

          I agree with DellDolly.

          You are confusing media coverage with media participation to make the event happen.

          This isn't a concert, promoted by the local radio station.

          This is a political rally to interfere with the legislative process, promoted by a "fair and balanced" "news" outlet.

          What makes this even more shameful is that the so-called MSM outlets don't see the problem.

          We all believe in FREEDOM, but FREEDOM at what price?

          We get what we deserve.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by narfull (November 06, 2009 10:52 am ET)
      3 7
      When I saw the headline, I assumed that Fox literally "owned" the extremist images...that they came from an archive owned by Fox. While their promotion of this rally is despicable and they bear responsibility for promoting the outrageous rhetoric, it is stretching the truth to say Fox News "owns" the images. If MMfA had determined the images were just supplied by Fox, it would be a great story.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 06, 2009 12:35 pm ET)
        5 1
        Oh, come on. Own is used entirely properly here. Look it up.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jcalton (November 06, 2009 7:10 pm ET)
          4 1
          Own?
          As in they OWN intellectual property rights over those images?
          Or they bought and paid for the (mostly crappy) signs?
          Or they provided said images and signs to protestors?

          That is what owns means. The article doesn't explain any of that anywhere. I still find the headline confusing.

          I prefer to have my articles substantiated in some way, I thought that was what MMFA was all about.
          Why shout down somebody who seeks more information or clarity of current information?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (November 07, 2009 7:06 am ET)
            1 1
            "Own" applies to moral responsibility as well. It's not exclusively a literal term used when discussing physical objects.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by simcha (November 07, 2009 2:34 pm ET)
                 
              narfull and jcalton are more right than DellDolly on this point about "own." It seems to me a stupid and cowardly action by MMfA that may be passed off as sloppy editing. What is true is not that Fox owns the images but that we wish they would own up to the fact that they repeatedly go into the theater and yell "someone thinks there is a fire!" but don't tell us the person thinking that is as mentally ill as Glen Beck or deviously hypocritical as Rush or the Bushies. oops, I suppose that is ad hominem and bob burcell will want MMfA to not be associated with me, distancing itself from my/our vitriol here lest MMfA seem like Fox? Ha! Fox encourages fear, racism and hate to make money in ways the MSM doesn't (yet) sink to. Sadly odd is The fact that bob purcell is so focused on the guilt by ass logic he ignored the odd way balanced Fox promotes, not reports on, the event(s.) Its funny that bob thinks he is helping our logic when he really just wanted to call one of us a jackass because we dared to thumbs down him for his "Golly, I don't know" which many may have taken to imply that there are really no clear shots to take at the Fox your choosing to ignore so you can fault the chickens for daring to think that Fox might agree with people it encourages to meet and speek out.
              Report Abuse
    • Author by nightwalker (November 07, 2009 9:42 pm ET)
         
      Are you seriously debating Fox News?Are you really serious,I feel sorry for those people being played by corporate interest and the Republican Party if you can even call it that.Fox News is more like entertainment.You would be better served to follow Professional Wrestling at least they admit it!!!!!The next thing this country has to upgrade it educational system to include all citizens!
      Report Abuse

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