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Quick Fact: Beck advanced dubious claim that "[n]owhere in the Constitution can you find" authority for health reform legislation

November 20, 2009 12:32 am ET — 197 Comments

During his Fox News show, Glenn Beck claimed that "[n]owhere in the Constitution can you find any of this" while he pointed to two stacks of paper representing the Senate and House health care bills. Contrary to Beck's suggestion that Congress does not have the authority to enact health care reform legislation and the implication that health reform is unconstitutional, numerous legal experts have disputed these claims, including University of California, Irvine law professor and Constitutional expert Erwin Chemerinsky, who explained that "there is no doubt that bills passed by House and Senate committees are constitutional."

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From the November 19 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck:

BECK: You know what kills me is the people in Congress, they're sworn to protect and defend this. They write this, they've never read these, and I guarantee ya, they haven't read this either. Maybe they should. Because, this is not in this. Nowhere in the Constitution can you find any of this.

Fact: Chemerinsky explained that constitutionality of reform proposals supported by "unbroken line of precedents stretching back 70 years"

As Media Matters for America has previously noted, University of California, Irvine law professor and constitutional expert Erwin Chemerinsky explained in an October 23 Politico piece that, regarding the "authority to compel people to purchase health insurance or pay a tax or a fine," "Congress clearly could do this under its power pursuant to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution to regulate commerce among the states." From Chemerinsky's Politico piece:

Those opposing health care reform are increasingly relying on an argument that has no legal merit: that the health care reform legislation would be unconstitutional. There is, of course, much to debate about how to best reform America's health care system. But there is no doubt that bills passed by House and Senate committees are constitutional.

Some who object to the health care proposals claim that they are beyond the scope of congressional powers. Specifically, they argue that Congress lacks the authority to compel people to purchase health insurance or pay a tax or a fine.

Congress clearly could do this under its power pursuant to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution to regulate commerce among the states. The Supreme Court has held that this includes authority to regulate activities that have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. In the area of economic activities, "substantial effect" can be found based on the cumulative impact of the activity across the country. For example, a few years ago, the Supreme Court held that Congress could use its commerce clause authority to prohibit individuals from cultivating and possessing small amounts of marijuana for personal medicinal use because marijuana is bought and sold in interstate commerce. [Politico 10/23/09]

Fact: Amar debunks arguments that reform violates Fifth Amendment

According to Slate.com's Timothy Noah, Yale law professor Akhil Reed Amar and Fordham Law School dean William Treanor debunked conservatives' argument that the individual mandate could be considered a "taking" in violation of the Fifth Amendment:

[A]ccording to Akhil Reed Amar, who teaches constitutional law at Yale, the case law does not support [Peter] Urbanowicz and [Dennis] Smith [both formerly of the Department of Health and Human Services]. "A taking is paradigmatically singling out an individual," Amar explains. The individual mandate (despite its name) applies to everybody. Also, "takings are paradigmatically about real property. They're about things." The individual mandate requires citizens to fork over not their houses or their automobiles but their money. Finally, Amar points out, the individual mandate does not result in the state taking something without providing compensation. The health insurance that citizens must purchase is compensation. In exchange for paying a premium, the insurer pledges (at least in theory) to pay some or all doctor and hospital bills should the need arise for medical treatment. The individual mandate isn't a taking, Amar argues. It's a tax.

But how can it be a tax if the money is turned over not to the government but to a private insurance company? William Treanor, dean of Fordham Law School and an expert on takings, repeated much of Amar's analysis to me (like Amar, he thinks a takings-based argument would never get anywhere), but instead of a tax he compared the individual mandate to the federal law mandating a minimum wage. Congress passes a law that says employers need to pay a certain minimum amount not to the government but to any person they hire. "The beneficiaries of that are private actors," Treanor explained. But it's allowed under the commerce clause. "Minimum wage law is constitutional." So, too, then, is the individual mandate.

Fact: Balkin debunks claim that Tenth Amendment prohibits reform

Responding to the arguments that health care reform violates the Tenth Amendment -- which reserves all power not delegated to the federal government to the states or the people -- Yale law professor Jack Balkin has noted that "the safeguards of federalism are political," not judicial, and that state governors do not have the power to nullify federal laws or "violate federal laws or interfere with federal employees."

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    • Author by mosstoss84 (November 20, 2009 3:32 am ET)
      2  
      Also under article 8 section 1 Under powers of Congress it says.

      The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay Debts and provide for the common Defense and general WELFARE of the United States

      Main Entry: 1wel·fare
      Pronunciation: \ˈwel-ˌfer\
      Function: noun
      Etymology: Middle English, from the phrase wel faren to fare well
      Date: 14th century
      1 : the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>
      2 a : aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b : an agency or program through which such aid is distributed


      Looks like It does allow Congress to have that power
      Report Abuse
      • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:35 pm ET)
          3
        not. general welfare means the state as a whole not individuals ability to live well.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by foghornleghorn (November 21, 2009 1:36 pm ET)
          2  
          In case you missed, individuals make up the state as a whole. A healthy group of individuals makes for a healthy state. Make a note of it.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by fantagor (November 22, 2009 5:56 am ET)
          2  
          Amazing selectivity. United States suddenly becomes a vague amorphous feeling more so than an actual cohesive organ over which the federal government has the right to pass laws governing the welfare thereof.

          The welfare of a nation is not defined by its real estate, but by the PEOPLE who occupy that land. You would defend the land but damn the people on it. In fact, congressional Republicans have already shown strong support for insuring land but not people. Woe is to they who aren't a parcel capable of withstanding a sign being stabbed into their gut by a Century 21 rep.

          http://ourcommongood.blogspot.com/2009/10/gop-values-protecting-property-over.html

          Randy
          Report Abuse
    • Author by nativeofsf (November 20, 2009 5:36 am ET)
      7 1
      Aside from Becky's continued failure at trying to be a credible human being, his inability to say anything involving legitimate research is covertly overshadowed by his angst -- Not being recognized as the foremost Sarah Palin in drag is a severe detriment his on-screen persona. Of course it would help if he got the hair and makeup right...for starters.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by rwmacdonald2091 (November 20, 2009 6:13 am ET)
      9 1
      Last time I saw a Republican holding up a claimed copy of the Constitution, when he started quoting it, it was the Declaration of Independence.

      So I am thinking Beck was reading the GOP talking point memo, and just thought it was the Constitution. Then again I may be wrong and Beck is just mentally challenged when it come to reading.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 8:00 am ET)
        1 12
        This admin seems to be reading from "Mary had a little Lamb".
        Report Abuse
        • Author by apostleis (November 20, 2009 8:49 am ET)
          5  
          Really? Are you this places version of Glen Beck spouting opinion with no proof?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 20, 2009 8:56 am ET)
          10  
          The last admin couldn't seem to get past My Pet Goat.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Cannonball (November 20, 2009 3:37 pm ET)
          4  
          Har Har Har Har, oh stop, Har Har Har, please...HAr Har Har, you're killing me... no, really, please stop.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by goesto11 (November 20, 2009 7:09 am ET)
      6  
      Hmmm. I can't find anything in the Constitution allowing Cash for Clunkers, either.

      It's time to revolt!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 7:58 am ET)
        2 12
        Cash for clunklers, Home buyers tax credit and energy tax credits for home upgrades are NOT to help the poor as this current abmin would have us believe, (Keeping the context correct). In truth, ONLY the people whom have/had the money to buy a new car, first home or upgrade their exhisting home actualy benefit/ed from these programs, and those/these people were already in the market to buy these items. The Poor have been left out again by the very people that this site says, is there to Right the wrongs the rich have done to them.

        The nay sayers will say these were done to stimulate the economy, But in reality lets see what happens when these program end. Will car and home sales drop drastically??? Will people all of a sudden stop upgrading their homes? I think "NOT" to both.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by goesto11 (November 20, 2009 8:24 am ET)
          8  
          I'm not sure what debate you're involved in, but you've stated your points well.

          I'll speak only for myself -- I don't believe the rich are doing wrong to the poor. I believe we've set up an economy that does wrong to the poor. I believe democracy does not mean "every man for himself."

          Getting back to the point of my post, the Constitution isn't intended to spell out every single piece of legislation that might conceivably be proposed in our country.

          The Framers purposefully created a Constitution that provided solid principles guaranteeing our rights, but they wanted actual governing to be done by the populace alive at any given time.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Why_Not_Me (November 20, 2009 11:12 am ET)
          4  
          Where did you get the notion that these programs were intended to help the poor?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 1:39 pm ET)
          4  
          "The Poor have been left out again by the very people that this site says, is there to Right the wrongs the rich have done to them." - kno

          Huh??
          Report Abuse
      • Author by rwmacdonald2091 (November 20, 2009 12:08 pm ET)
        10 1
        I can't find anything that says "Air Force" either. I found Army, and found Navy, but no Air Force.

        Lets dismantle the Air Force, its not in the Constitution!
        Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:38 pm ET)
            3
          If you insists on being strict structuralist, you should file suit in federal court to contend that congress had no authority to remove the Army Air Corps from the Army as congress did not have that power. Gald you are getting the idea of limited government!!!!
          Report Abuse
    • Author by wookie (November 20, 2009 7:31 am ET)
      8  
      >>Contrary to Beck's suggestion that Congress does not have the authority to enact health care reform legislation and the implication that health reform is unconstitutional, numerous legal experts have disputed these claims, including University of California, Irvine law professor and Constitutional expert Erwin Chemerinsky, who explained that "there is no doubt that bills passed by House and Senate committees are constitutional.">>

      Come on, MMFA. Who are you going to believe? A law professor and Constitutional expert or an ex rodeo clown?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by goesto11 (November 20, 2009 8:24 am ET)
        4  
        "Ex" rodeo clown?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 9:39 am ET)
        8 1
        Beck was never a rodeo clown . . . his use of that term to describe himself is offensive. Rodeo "clowns" are very brave and selfless individuals who risk their lives to do their job which is to distract the bulls from cowboys.

        Beck is simply a clown and not a very good one.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Abubrad (November 20, 2009 8:47 pm ET)
           
        Ex-rodeo clown?? Beck is more Bozo the Clown without make-up.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:40 pm ET)
           
        Thats absurd. By that reasoning if the House and Senate vote to expel Jews, and the president signs it, it is constitutional.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 7:40 am ET)
      2 11
      I've been waiting for MMA to debunk the following:

      1) The rationing of the N1H1 vaccine. Where is your outrage AGAINST Obama on this one? I can't wait for the Gov't to run our health care. If obama care passes, watch how many employees are laid off by the health care industry, due to outsourcing (probably to India)

      2) Gramnisty chewing Eric Holder an new one. Holder's still mumbling gibberish.

      3) Those of you who think that little weekly Obama check increase is an actual tax break. Note: only the tax table changed not the actual tax rate. If you are getting at the end of the year $250 more in pay, you will get $250 less on your return refund. It's just a disquise to hide the fact that you are only getting an advance on your 2009 tax refund, NOT actual tax relief.

      4) The transparent $18 mil gov't web site, full of lies about where and how many jobs are created.

      Where are you MMA?? OR does taking things out of context only apply to LIBS?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 8:07 am ET)
        1 10
        Addition to the N1H1. You people have not said a word about waiting and ro stading in long lines to get the vaccine. Yet you wine and cry because you had to stand in a long line to VOTE, Knowing 4 YEARS in advance of when and where to VOTE.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 20, 2009 8:36 am ET)
          6  
          Isn't it against the law to be caught "ro stading in long lines" in 23 states?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by jonpin (November 20, 2009 8:59 am ET)
          7  
          Science is hard. Making vaccines is not as simple as making iced tea. Even so, if you were asked to make 50 million servings of iced tea, it would take a long time. Because of media hype, there is a huge demand for H1N1 vaccine, which means whenever there is an available supply, it gets consumed fast.

          Re: tax cut. Wrong/Lying. A person with one job had $400 less withheld because they got a $400 credit. This was as intended, this was how it worked. The mistake that was made was that someone working TWO jobs had $400 less withheld at EACH job, even though they were only to receive a $400 credit. Thus they received more of a credit than they were supposed to, and that must be repaid. Similar logic applies to two person, two job households.

          Re: voting lines. Of course people should know in advance where they will vote (knowing 4 years in advance is an exaggeration as people move and poll places change), but that's not the issue. If you have 4 voting booths for a precinct with 200 voters, and 2 voting booths for a precinct with 2000 voters, you will have long lines at the latter.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:09 am ET)
            2 7
            "Re: tax cut. Wrong/Lying"

            Check the IRS tax withholding booklets. It's an advance on you return. The tax rates did not change, only the amount witheld.


            And does katrina ring a bell????
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 9:49 am ET)
              6 1
              Hon, if you are getting a refund every year that means that you are PAYING TOO MUCH into the tax system. It's not free money that you are getting back when you get a refund . . . they are just giving you back what you overpaid. If you are smart, you don't GET a refund at the end of the year. You've put that extra money into an interest bearing account instead of letting the government use it for a year interest-free.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 1:53 pm ET)
                3  
                Thank you, bin. I should have read your response before I sent mine. But, this is something that amazes me about a lot of people. The same people who seem to be afraid of the government have no problem giving the government a tax free loan all year just so they can get a refund in January. They don't trust the government, but they trust the government better than they trust themselves to save their own money? It makes zero sense to me.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 11:53 am ET)
              3  
              kno-bll, I am sure you will come back and let us all know you were wrong once you see the credit. Jonpin makes a good point on the two job scenario, but the taxpayer needs to be somwaht responsible to make sure enough money is being withheld when they have two jobs. I don't have the law in front of me, but with 2 wage earners is not the credit $800? It is nice to see kno-bll is eager to pay his taxes that he already has the booklets. Congress has until the end of 2010 to change the tax tables back to what they were, or let them just expire to the previous. I am not sure how that works, but there are no rate changes until tax year 2011. Of course, if they want to do it early, go for it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 3:50 pm ET)
                  3
                Wrong, Because I have to pay in at the end of every year.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:00 pm ET)
                  3 1
                  You were wrong about the tax cut in Obama's Stimulus plan.

                  We're still waiting for you to admit it.

                  It was a tax cut. It means you'll owe less tax on the income you received this year if your income is under the ceiling.

                  They didn't permanently change the tax tables - they simply made it so everyone who earned under that ceiling will owe less taxes on the same amount of income.

                  So, still waiting for you to admit you were wrong.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 4:08 pm ET)
                      3
                    and repealing the Bush tax cuts doesnt count as a new tax either, right?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:19 pm ET)
                      4 1
                      No one was talking about the Bush tax cuts being allowed to expire for the richest people in our nation.

                      Try to keep up. I know it's hard, but try. Or look like a fool. Your choice.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by Publius39 (November 20, 2009 8:57 pm ET)
                     
                  Kno, I've been reading your posts for the past few months, and you really are intellectually bankrupt. The reason why you pay taxes at the end of every year is probably because you underpaid. You can easily take care of this of you rework your tax paperwork to reflect what you truly make. That and some brain cells.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 1:34 pm ET)
              4  
              kno-bll doesn't know what he's talking about, yet comes to this site pretending that he can educate us.

              Tax rates were not permanently changed. It doesn't matter though. It was still a tax cut! It is a temporary change, but it is a cut in the amount of tax many of us will owe at the end of the year.

              Even The Spectator acknowledged this months ago!

              It's not an advance on a tax refund. It's a cut in the amount of taxes owed.

              He's wrong. And everyone who believed him was wrong to do so. You need to not let yourselves be led by trolls.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:16 am ET)
            1 9
            "Re: voting lines. Of course people should know in advance where they will vote (knowing 4 years in advance is an exaggeration as people move and poll places change), but that's not the issue. If you have 4 voting booths for a precinct with 200 voters, and 2 voting booths for a precinct with 2000 voters, you will have long lines at the latter."

            You mean to tell me that you and most of the population didn't or don't know that we have a presidential election every four years, and that it is on the same day every time??????
            Report Abuse
          • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:22 am ET)
            1 9
            I wasn't talking about those that have two jobs. By the way though, With so many people out of work, how does 15 millon people manage to have 2 jobs??????
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jonpin (November 20, 2009 10:02 am ET)
              6  
              People who have two PART-TIME jobs because they can't get a full-time job.

              You mean to tell me that you and most of the population didn't or don't know that we have a presidential election every four years, and that it is on the same day every time??????

              What the hell are you talking about? That doesn't come close to answering my point. When state and county boards-of-election make discriminatory or just-plain-dumb assignments of voting booths not in proportion to voting population, you will get long lines.

              BTW to others, apparently "Gramnisty" = Lindsay Graham + Amnesty.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 11:25 am ET)
                1 8
                "That doesn't come close to answering my point. When state and county boards-of-election make discriminatory or just-plain-dumb assignments of voting booths not in proportion to voting population, you will get long lines."

                And you want Gov't to run yuor health care??
                Report Abuse
                • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 11:39 am ET)
                  4  
                  You didn't address the fact that you don't know what you're talking about with regard to refunds and taxes.

                  Refunds are simply overpayments . . . if you get a "reduction" in your refund, it just means that you aren't overpaying your taxes as much as you were before. Bad financial planning on your part if you are getting a refund in the first place.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 10:08 am ET)
              5  
              I have a friend with 5 part time jobs AND who is seriously ill at the moment . . . he's having to fight his insurance company to get them to pay for treatment prescribed by his doctors.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:43 pm ET)
              2
            ergo rationing is inevitable and I prefer mine NOT laced by government meddling. Turn it around...what if you are ordered to use a vaccine because of your profession? considering state quarantine laws its not a stretch.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by bsherman (November 20, 2009 9:49 am ET)
          3  
          Quite frankly, I think the government did a remarkable job with H1N1 (note the proper terminology) I had no problem getting the vaccine for my 3 year-old daughter. I waited in line for 20 minutes. My wife (who is pregnant) also had no problem getting it. I was not eligible to get it. But you don't see me griping about it. Those at risk need to get it first.

          I don't think there are any immunologists posting on this board that actually know something about the manufacture of vaccines. So the ignorant(myself included) should maybe refrain from posting ill-informed opinions on this.

          Maybe instead of constantly complaining about the government we should be thankful to live in a country that actually provides vaccines...for free. If we lived in the libertarian fantasy-land you seem to want, we might have the vaccine at the same time, but it would cost a small fortune given the supply and demand. And from a public health perspective it would be a complete disaster, since it would go first to the wealthiest, not the highest risk population.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (November 20, 2009 5:55 pm ET)
          3  
          Addition to the N1H1. You people have not said a word about waiting and ro stading in long lines to get the vaccine. Yet you wine and cry because you had to stand in a long line to VOTE, Knowing 4 YEARS in advance of when and where to VOTE.
          That is a lot of stupid to have to address. Here is an explanation of the difficulties producing swine flu vaccine. I don't see how complaining about it is going to speed up production. We know what the problems are, but you cannot just simply address these problems and expect 300 million doses of viable vaccine overnight or even next week.

          It is quite silly to have to stand in a long line to vote. Do you enjoy doing it? Unfortunately if you live in a heavily populated area, that may be the only way you can vote. If you don't complain about it, how on Earth do you expect it to change? It happens more frequently than every "4 YEARS" - sometimes every year and in many places you only have from 6am to 8pm to find a time to vote on a single day. Why wouldn't you complain about that. These rules are setup by elected officials. If you don't complain, it will not get fixed. But perhaps you prefer these problems not get fixed because they overwhelmingly happen in large cities that are mostly "blue" areas.

          Of course these are apples and oranges comparisons. Flu vaccine is different every year. It needs to be identified and successfully manufactured taking into account seasonal and viral variability and predictions of which strains will be successful. Election Day in many cases is only one day every other (and sometimes every) year. You only get one shot at voting. I can't blame someone for complaining about not being heard.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by goesto11 (November 20, 2009 8:38 am ET)
        6  
        1. If we have a population that far exceeds the supply of vaccine, how would you suggest we decide who gets the vaccine? A talent contest? Rationing is required by definition (you know, the definition of "economics": the distribution of SCARCE resources.)

        2. No idea what you're talking about.

        3. This will come as a surprise to you, but there are many Americans who are in favor of paying taxes to support the well being of our society, in all manners: defense, health, infrastructure, etc.

        4. Get well soon.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:12 am ET)
          1 10
          "1. If we have a population that far exceeds the supply of vaccine, how would you suggest we decide who gets the vaccine? A talent contest? Rationing is required by definition (you know, the definition of "economics": the distribution of SCARCE resources.)

          2. No idea what you're talking about."


          1) And 35 millon people headed to the doctors office isn't going to slow things down. Please.

          2) Are you in the dark or what????
          Report Abuse
          • Author by goesto11 (November 20, 2009 12:24 pm ET)
            6  
            1. The H1N1 vaccine MUST BE rationed. There's not enough of it for everyone. That's an immutable fact. If the government doesn't control the rationing, whom would you propose? Hell's Angels?

            2. Yes, I am in the dark -- when it comes to words like "gramnisty." I imagine that's a word Glen Beck invented.

            But I'm happy to join in the fun. How's this? "Dorkbag."

            Report Abuse
            • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:44 pm ET)
                2
              how about letting doctors and the market be the arbiters?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (November 21, 2009 1:39 pm ET)
                2  
                The market had its chance and failed. Thousands uncovered, thousands dead, thousands of bankruptcies etc. etc.

                Report Abuse
      • Author by apostleis (November 20, 2009 8:53 am ET)
        7  
        It's govt payer not govt provider. The government would not be "running healthcare.

        The government is paying not telling doctors what to do like insurance companies do now. They regularly deny coverage saying to do cheaper procedures and provide cheaper medicines.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:19 am ET)
            10
          Isn't the one whom pays the one whom provided you with it???
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 9:23 am ET)
            9  
            A doctor provides my health care.

            If you're getting your health care from an insurance company desk jockey I suggest you look into other plans.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 9:30 am ET)
              1 11
              I have none, due to being rejected by the insurance industry. That said, I do NOT want the gov't telling me, "I have to get it or else".

              In my case, the insurance industry has lost money, as I have only had to go to a doctor 6 time since 1995. 5 visits where to get my DOT physical. 1 time for 3 stitches and once for a scratch on the surface of my eye. All of whitch was paid for out of my pocket. Much cheaper than if I had monthly insurance premiums.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 9:40 am ET)
                7  
                Ah, so you choose not to have insurance--you've exercised an option. Well, that's what the Democratic health care reform is all about--giving people a choice and offering another option.

                In my case I had health insurance--until getting laid off a couple of years ago. My fiancee and I currently have jobs where we do not qualify for health insurance and would have a hell of a time making payments on the premiums if we did.

                We both got hit by the flu a few weeks ago. Being able to go to the doctor and get a prescription for Tamiflu would have been nice, but we couldn't afford it.

                So, as you might have guessed, I'm pretty strongly in favor of having a government run health insurance option.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 11:28 am ET)
                  1 8
                  "Ah, so you choose not to have insurance--you've exercised an option. Well, that's what the Democratic health care reform is all about--giving people a choice and offering another option."

                  Giving OR FORCING????
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 2:16 pm ET)
                    4  
                    Heaven forbid then you're driving down the road and suddenly the car your driving is T-Boned and you wind up in the hospital needing extensive surgury,post-op SICU care for a few days a few weeks in acute care and months of re-hab,but you have no insurance...guess who foots the bill?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 3:47 pm ET)
                        5
                      The other drivers Auto Insurance.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:51 pm ET)
                        4  
                        He left the scene and no witnesses. Are you aware that 45,000 Americans die each year due to lack of health insurance? You seem embarasssingly ignorant of the issues and pureile in your logic.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:05 pm ET)
                        5  
                        Yeah, it wasn't a great analogy for that very reason. But I posted an irrefutable one below, and I notice that you didn't reply to it, kno-bll.

                        One never knows when a bad illness might occur. Because of that, it's insane to choose to not have insurance. Too many people now do that, and then if they do get sick or injured and don't have health insurance or sufficient car, disability or homeowners insurance to cover their injuries/illnesses, they cost all of us in the end. And then there's the people who don't have a choice, and don't have health insurance, and they too cost us all!
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 3:23 pm ET)
                    4  
                    Allowing you to have insurance that you can't get now in case you have a need for it.

                    If we ALL knew in advance if we'd need insurance or not, and need a lot of it or only need it in dribs and drabs, then only those people who could foretell the future and see a bad illness or injury would get insurance.

                    But no one can foretell the future, so your suggestion that it's okay to go without insurance based upon your anecdotal story is beyond ridiculous.

                    The fact that someone drove drunk a hundred times without getting caught and without having an accident doesn't mean it's a good idea. Playing Russian Roulette and surviving doesn't make playing it a good idea!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:35 pm ET)
                      3  
                      Playing Russian Roulette and surviving doesn't make playing it a good idea! --DD

                      You are so right and it also makes for bad governmental policy. The insanity of these cons is beyond belief. This guy would benefit from the changes attempting to be made in healthcare. 1st. being that they(private insurers could no longer refuse to cover him)yet he refuses to support it because it will force him to have it,yet if he gets ill(maybe because of his pre-existing condition/heaven forbid)a hospital will be forced to treat him and guess who will be forced to pay for his care. So instead of taking responsibility for himself he places it on us, because he knows that no civilized society would deny him care just because he couldn't pay.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 9:49 am ET)
                7  
                Forgive me, I have to correct myself. You said you had no insurance due to being rejected by the insurance industry.

                Health care reform would change that. You couldn't be rejected. Not by the government run plan. Not by private insurance companies.

                I would think you'd be in favor of such a change.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 11:29 am ET)
                  1 10
                  I'm for a change, Just not being FORCED or ELSE.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
                    6  
                    Well, as you stated, you cannot get health care. The insurance companies won't cover you.

                    I know you said you didn't want it, but I'll bet there are many people who share you situation. Aren't they being forced to go without?

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 2:21 pm ET)
                    3  
                    But if you are in a castrophic accident(heaven forbid)you'd rahter force the government(the people)to pay for your care.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 9:51 am ET)
                5  
                Hopefully, you won't ever get really sick. My last illness, which was fortunately covered by worker's comp, cost over $150,000 to treat. My prescriptions and treatment prior to four surgeries were costing about $1500.00 a month, more at one point. Since I'm considered "uninsurable" by the insurance companies, I would have been in SEVERE difficulty.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by bsherman (November 20, 2009 9:54 am ET)
                4  
                I suppose if you get cancer (knock on wood). You would refuse any assistance from the government, refuse to declare bankruptcy, and set up an interest plan to make monthly payments of $1000 for the next 20 years.

                No one is immortal. Get smart.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:45 pm ET)
                1
              what if we continue to follow britain and canada and prohibit out of pocket payment?
              Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 9:46 am ET)
        6 1
        Well, since the majority of what you posted is gibberish, I don't know why anyone would debunk anything.

        1) There is no rationing of the H1N1 vaccine. In fact, our local clinic for the at-risk patients has a surplus of over 500 doses. The outsourcing of our jobs took place in the LAST administration.

        2) Who the hell is Gramnisty? I haven't seen Holder "mumbling gibberish." He was correct in his actions.

        3) You are aware that if one is using good economic practice in the first place, there will be NO tax refund. A refund means that you have OVERPAID your taxes. Using your withholding as a means to "save" money is foolish. You are, in essence, giving the government your money to use INTEREST FREE for a year. Really, really bad point.

        4) Based upon your other garbage posted . . . why bother on this one?

        Does getting stuff wrong only apply to people who have no concept whatsoever what conservative or liberal political ideology means?

        Go back to freerepublic where you got this nonsense . . . oh, and learn how to spell.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 9:57 am ET)
        6  
        kno-bll, wont you be surprised when you see that tax credit that will offset the extra take home pay you got this year thus making your refun what it would be otherwise. The tables have not changed, but the credit takes care of the extra take home pay.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 11:21 am ET)
          1 6
          The tax tables did change, but the tax rates remained the same. I have both 2009 irs copies on my desk.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 11:44 am ET)
            1  
            ok, I misspoke. the tables changed and the rates did not. bottom line the xtra $400 or so that was not taken out of your withholding, it is mitigated for tax liability by the credit.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 11:44 am ET)
            4 1
            But, the question is, why are you getting a refund in the first place? If you are getting a refund at all, it means that you are overpaying your taxes. Invest that extra money in an interest-bearing account instead of mindlessly sending it to the government to use for a year FREE.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by srichardson (November 20, 2009 12:25 pm ET)
              1  
              The question is, do we really have to pay back our $400 dollar tax credit at the end of the year? Regardless of whether you get a refund or not, if this tax credit is to be paid back, you will either get less of a refund or have to pay in more. If we actually have to pay it back, which I don't believe we do.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 12:32 pm ET)
                3 1
                I'm just referencing his statement that our "refunds" will be less. If he's getting a refund, he's already paying too much into the kitty. Bad financial planning. You should NEVER get a refund. Put the money in the bank and earn interest on it.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 1:40 pm ET)
                3  
                Nope, we aren't simply getting a credit on any refund we might get. Taxes were lowered temporarily. That's why nothing permanent was done to tax tables, because it's temporary!

                The tax cut included in the Financial Stimulus bill lowers one's tax bill by about $400 a year.

                kno-bll doesn't know what he's talking about.
                Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 1:47 pm ET)
        2  
        "1) The rationing of the N1H1 vaccine. Where is your outrage AGAINST Obama on this one? I can't wait for the Gov't to run our health care. If obama care passes, watch how many employees are laid off by the health care industry, due to outsourcing (probably to India) - kno

        I would love to hear how you blame the H1N1 vaccine on Obama. Please show me the evidence.

        "2)Gramnisty chewing Eric Holder an new one. Holder's still mumbling gibberish." - kno

        You want MMFA to debunk your silly opinion? And you think MMFA is too partisan? Come on, get real. Give us some facts and evidence. Then maybe we can disupute or agree with your claims. This is a childish argument. This is like saying "W was dumb. Prove me wrong." Silly.

        "3) Those of you who think that little weekly Obama check increase is an actual tax break. Note: only the tax table changed not the actual tax rate. If you are getting at the end of the year $250 more in pay, you will get $250 less on your return refund. It's just a disquise to hide the fact that you are only getting an advance on your 2009 tax refund, NOT actual tax relief." - kno

        If you are counting on your refund every year, you are doing your taxes incorrectly. You need to change your withholding. You are giving the government (which you seem to fear) a tax free loan every year on the money you have already earned. This is for your own good. Change your withholding and invest your own money the way you want to. Do not give the government a tax free loan all year just because you are afraid you cannot save your own money.

        "4) The transparent $18 mil gov't web site, full of lies about where and how many jobs are created." - kno

        Again. Give us something to work with here. You seem to be the one mumbling gibberish now. Did Gramnisty do a number on you? Give me some facts or evidence and I may agree with some of your points. But, if you are just spouting the latest talking points that you have heard from Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh - don't waste our time.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by kno-bll6010 (November 20, 2009 4:01 pm ET)
            4
          "Again. Give us something to work with here. You seem to be the one mumbling gibberish now. Did Gramnisty do a number on you? Give me some facts or evidence and I may agree with some of your points. But, if you are just spouting the latest talking points that you have heard from Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh - don't waste our time."

          ""4) The transparent $18 mil gov't web site, full of lies about where and how many jobs are created." - kno"

          Joe Bidden openly Admitted to it.


          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:17 pm ET)
            4  
            Yeah, didn't happen.

            Some businesses sent in preliminary numbers for jobs created. The government tried to verify all those numbers and corrected what they could. But if a tiny percentage of job creation numbers aren't right, then it's the fault of the organizations that sent in those numbers - the govt can't be expected to personally verify every job and insure that no exaggerations occurred, or make sure that no job was already planned and the paycheck simply went to the boss as an extra bonus!

            Here's a link to Joe Biden's quote about jobs creation - I guess that this is what know-nothing is referencing, since, like so many rightwingers here, he didn't provide a link, and simply threw out a baseless accusation.

            Vice President Joe Biden said, "This is an unprecedented undertaking. And we know — we know that it's not 100 percent accurate."

            Him saying that the process is NOT perfect is NOT anywhere close to your assertion that it's full of lies. Their job creation estimates have always been lower than the actual jobs created - it's only the ones reported and it doesn't really talk about all the jobs that were saved by the stimulus keeping us from going into a Depression, either.

            Like so many rightwingers before you, you don't have a leg to stand on in the arguments you've presented here.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 5:00 pm ET)
            5  
            Joe Biden openly admitted that Gramnisty did a number on you? This conversation is becoming truly bizarre.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by libertyof76 (November 20, 2009 10:03 am ET)
        3
      He is correct. Too many people do not understand the Constitution.

      The States, which were free and independent of each other, created the Federal government to do certain tasks, and delegated powers to accomplish those tasks. They wrote the Constitution which spelled out what those tasks are. That list is in Article I, Section 8, which lists Congress' powers. Despite the widespread belief that Congress could only exercise those powers, there still were some concerns that it wasn't clear enough. So in order to get the States to ratify the Constitution, a Bill of Rights was promised to be approved after ratification.

      Besides including specific rights, it also included two amendments(9th and 10th) that clearly stated that Congress has limited powers, and only those in Art I, Sec 8. No where does it allow heath care laws. The interstate commerce clause was only meant to ensure free and open trade between the states- NOT to ban or regulate what people have and can do.

      Beck is right, since he has history and facts on his side.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 4:00 pm ET)
        3  
        History and facts on his side, you are delusional bring the cases to overturn SS and Medicare.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:23 pm ET)
        3  
        Okay, well the next time the US Supreme Court hears a case related to the Interstate Commerce Clause, you better be sure that you get your butt down to Washington, DC so that you can can set them straight. But remember, you'll also need to get a psychic, since many similar decisions were made by justices who've been dead for decades.

        <end sarcasm>

        This is settled law. You're wrong about this, and so is Beck. Neither one of you has history or facts on your side.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 5:03 pm ET)
          4  
          Anyone else find it hilarious that people actually believe the Constitution is irrefutable because of its amendments. Wouldn't the fact that there are amendments, in fact, explain that the document is not infallible?
          Report Abuse
    • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 10:23 am ET)
      1 7
      HHmmmm, just do not see anything about providing health care to the general masses. "General Welfare" is not health care.

      Section 8 - Powers of Congress

      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

      To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

      To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

      To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

      To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

      To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

      To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

      To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

      To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

      To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

      To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

      To provide and maintain a Navy;

      To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

      To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

      To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

      To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 10:43 am ET)
        6  
        The S.Ct. has already determined that it is Constitutional.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 11:50 am ET)
            8
          Bi, could you please provide the case where the S. Ct rule on Health Care for all? I would enjoy reading such a case.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 12:37 pm ET)
            7  
            It's the same case which okayed Social Security and Medicare.

            Helvering v. Davis (1937)
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 2:03 pm ET)
              6  
              Wasting your time on MarkB. This is the same guy who does not believe that we still have any programs in place that were instituted under FDR. His lack of basic knowledge is stunning. He is a cut and paste cut and runner. Nothing more.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:51 pm ET)
                2
              really? Im under 65...How do I get medicare?
              Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:50 pm ET)
            2
          The supreme court also determined that 'separate but equal' is constitutional and NOT constututional. The supreme court issues learned, binding opinions, but in the end they are opinions.

          Quick Quiz: What part of the constitution allows congress to require a territory change religion to join the union?

          What provision of the constitution prohibits a state from secession?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (November 20, 2009 11:38 am ET)
        7  
        Apparently medicare is unconstitutional. You'll need to take this discovery to a courthouse immediately. I imagine you've been aware of the unconstitutionality of medicare for several years now. Your failure to act must just eat you away inside.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 11:55 am ET)
          1 10
          What really eats me up is that Medicare is a perfect example of how the government will not be successful at any future Healthcare. Sad part you think Medicare works. How about we just clean up Medicare first, show the American People that this Administration can fix it, before adding more problems. You all tell us how smart you all are, please fix Medicare. IF you all can do that, I will back any future plan for Health Insurance.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by steeve (November 20, 2009 12:24 pm ET)
            7  
            "If you all can do that, I will back any future plan for Health Insurance."

            Thank you for abandoning your constitutionality argument. Now you just want government to do stuff that works. Welcome to the team. It would help our morale a little if you would admit that we've just blown you away, though.

            Medicare has much better control over skyrocketing health care costs than private insurance. Medicare has much lower administrative costs than private insurance. Medicare kicks the crap out of private insurance in every conceivable way, and it does so while covering the most challenging segment of the population. Medicare can be improved, of course, but so can anything else.

            The way you demand more from the government than you do from private enterprise makes me think you must be some kind of closet socialist. You seem to instinctively think that only the government is capable of true greatness.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 12:39 pm ET)
            5  
            My father was in the hospital for one month in the early summer and in a nursing home for rehab for three months. Medicare and their supplement covered ALL expenses without question or hassle. Medicare continues to cover all of their expenses.

            You'd have a hard time convincing my parents that Medicare doesn't work.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 12:52 pm ET)
              1 6
              It works great for them! They got coverage. It isnt so great for our nat'l budget and debt however. Expenditures within medicare have continually outpased estimates. This new plan will be no different. Just keep printing money and it'll all work out ok, right?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 1:43 pm ET)
                5  
                This is why it's a crisis, because if something isn't done to control costs (in addition to providing coverage to most of the uninsured), we won't be able to sustain these programs.

                And that's the very reason why the Republican plan is ONLY a joke and the Democratic plan will actually work, but our plan does that, despite your assertion that it won't be any different.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 2:07 pm ET)
            3  
            Interesting. Now, MarkB seems to think Medicare is Constitutional. I would think if Medicare did not work, there would be politicans on the right calling to get rid of it. Yet....total silence. Interesting. Perhaps MarkB can provide some facts and evidence that Medicare does not work. You got anything, Mark? Anything that is not tied to a lack of funding?
            Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 11:50 am ET)
        1 7
        Mark,

        Despite the lack of comprehension among the liberals who have responded to you, I understand exactly your point. It's not that providing health care is unconstitutional, it's that nowhere in the constitution is it a citizen's right to be provided with health care.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 11:56 am ET)
          1 4
          Thanks, just been a bit busy with work to respond all the time.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 12:40 pm ET)
          5  
          Ah, but Helvering v. Davis covers it. It's not un-constitutional.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by bintx (November 20, 2009 12:41 pm ET)
          4  
          Oh, and I'm not a "liberal," I just disagree with you and the other dude on this issue.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 1:48 pm ET)
          4  
          The fact that providing healthcare to all US citizens isn't explicitly in the Constitution is a good thing. Some Constitutions are written broadly and the Supreme Court provides interpretation as our country has evolved. Other Constitutions, like the one in Texas, is so limited that amendments need to be added for almost anything the state decides to do!

          But you're wrong that providing healthcare isn't covered by language in the Constitution. Many decades ago, and for multiple decisions since that time, the US Supreme Court has determined that these kinds of programs are covered by language in the Constitution.

          I don't know how you can 'understand his point' since he doesn't have one. It's not unconstitutional to provide these services. The branch of our government tasked with figuring out what's allowed or disallowed by the Constitution has said that this kind of program is covered.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 1:52 pm ET)
            1 4
            What escapes you SuzyDell is that there is a big difference between something being unconstitutional and it being a constitutional right. If you can't figure that out, perhaps you'd better step away for a bit.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 2:01 pm ET)
              4  
              No, there's not really any difference between the two - either it's allowed by the Constitution, and therefore constitutional, or it's not allowed by the Constitution, and therefore if Congress tried to pass this law, it'd be declared unconstitutional!

              It's constitutionally-allowed. It's constitutional. It's not the opposite.

              And what everyone sees again is that when you don't have a true refutation of what someone else has said, you have to throw out a personal attack. It hurts your credibility, not mine, but you just can't stop yourself, and the fact that you can't resist that urge also hurts your credibility.

              And here's a clue - hurting your own credibility isn't a good thing.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 2:09 pm ET)
                  5
                You don't know what you're talking about. So, is driving a car unconstitutional, or a constitutional right?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 2:58 pm ET)
                  2 1
                  So what do we do with someone who has a car accident requiring extensive hospitalization but has no insurance? Or the person who has cancer but can't pay, or the child that needs heart surgury but the family can't pay? We've moved beyond your neanderthal view of every man for himself. No civilized society would let these people go without care, and i hope that is not what your advocating or is it?
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 3:26 pm ET)
                  4  
                  If there was a law passed that unconstitutionally restricted driving privileges, then that law would be unconstitutional.

                  Being able to drive is a constitutional right given to us by the 10th amendment. It's not specifically IN the Constitution, however.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
                      4
                    You just said it, driving is a privilege, not a right. Really, so our right to drive is given to us constitutionally by the 10th amendment? And then you contradict yourself immediately by saying it's not in there after all?? WTF??

                    My god Sue, you need to get back on meds or something. That is the wildest, most off the rail statement you have ever made around here, and there have been some whoppers. LOL!!!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:49 pm ET)
                      3  
                      Healthcare is a right!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 3:52 pm ET)
                          4
                        No, it is not a right. Think about all the training and education and equipment and thousands of people who have to be in place for you to exercise your "right". Doctors, nurses, pharmacists, technicians, on and on and on. Your so called right demands that they be there, otherwise it is not a right.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 4:06 pm ET)
                          4  
                          Now you are talking gibberish. Those doctors and nurses and pharmacist that are place,tell me were they trained by public medical schools? Tell me did the private schools some were trained at receive public subsidies for their training and research? Oh not to belabor the point,but WTF does their being there prove it is not a right.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 4:13 pm ET)
                          3  
                          Are you familiar with nursing staffing laws. Are you familiar with JCOH and the goverment regulations that hospitals have to abide by to be accredited and thus eligible for Federal and State funds. I really can't believe how absurd your argument is becoming to justify your backward philosophy.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:29 pm ET)
                      3  
                      Do you know what the 10th amendment does, fool?

                      It gives rights to the states, like the right to allow state citizens to drive.

                      There is no right to drive in the Constitution. What's in the Constitution is the right to control that given to the states.

                      Why would you want to prove to everyone that you can't understand a simple concept like this? You look like such a fool when you do it, and then you top it off with a personal attack accusing me of being some old foe that I'm not when you're clearly another poster with a different screen name yourself!

                      It's your posts that are showing everyone that you've lost touch with reality.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 5:05 pm ET)
                          3
                        Oh my darling Suzy, you always trip yourself up because you either can't remember what you posted, or you are such a dishonest liar you don't care.

                        "Being able to drive is a constitutional right given to us by the 10th amendment", by DellDolly 1 hr and 34 minutes ago.

                        "There is no right to drive in the Constitution", by DellDolly 32 minutes ago.

                        Keep posting, you never fail to entertain. HA!
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 9:22 pm ET)
                          2  
                          It's pretty clear to everyone else. It's not my fault that you can't see it.

                          The right to drive is something that cannot be denied to us by the Constitution - that right is given to us by the 10th amendment.

                          That amendment doesn't give us any SPECIFIC rights, like the right to drive. It gives us many rights, but doesn't do so EXPLICITLY.

                          This is not rocket science, you know.

                          The 10th amendment gives the states the right to give us the right to drive. So, what I said is exactly true and proper.

                          Oh, but I forgot - you've gone for the weekend now.
                          Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (November 20, 2009 6:02 pm ET)
                        2 1
                        DellDolly,

                        The "right" to drive is not a "right" it is a priveledge. There is a pretty big difference.
                        Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 2:03 pm ET)
              4  
              Even the guy you're supporting here said

              "So Shaggles "The Constitution Man", tell us where we could find this claim, that this is constitutional?"

              He's challenging Shaggles to prove that it's not unconstitutional!
              Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 2:29 pm ET)
              3  
              We don't have to believe it is a right guaranteed under the Constitution to believe that we need universal health care. There are a lot of things not included in the Constitution that have worked just fine for us. How about the fact that the choice is between socializing costs and denying care? We socialize costs right now, we just do it at the highest cost possible through ERs instead if doctor visits and preventative care. It would save costs to have a universal healthcare system where costs could be controlled and preventative medicine could work as designed.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 2:29 pm ET)
              4  
              We don't have to believe it is a right guaranteed under the Constitution to believe that we need universal health care. There are a lot of things not included in the Constitution that have worked just fine for us. How about the fact that the choice is between socializing costs and denying care? We socialize costs right now, we just do it at the highest cost possible through ERs instead if doctor visits and preventative care. It would save costs to have a universal healthcare system where costs could be controlled and preventative medicine could work as designed.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 3:12 pm ET)
                1 4
                I don't disagree. But SuzyDell was trying an either/or and it's ridiculous, she is dodging my analogy above, but that's ok. I am sorry, I am just not sold on the notion that government run or heavily involved health care is some cure all for the ailments of our health care industry. And what I find disingenuous are some big government proponents of all this government involvement have no more interest in making sure "people don't die in the streets" than any of the rest of us have. They are phonies. Look at how many of them come here and right out of the gate are bam, damn insurance companies, let's punish them and put a halt to their profits. That seems to be where their emphasis is, yet they cloak it in lofty concern for those inunsured. And then it's we have a right to health care, which is also ridiculous.

                We need some reform or something done, maybe these health care bills are the way to go. I just don't trust government to do it. Those putting out all these numbers now will be long gone when the realities of those costs, always underestimated, are there.

                Then where do we go to fix it?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:24 pm ET)
                  4  
                  What century are you living in. Healthcare in the 21st century is not a right? You are the one that is ridiculous. Profits should never be considered over life but that is what our healthcare system is based on and that is what the bottomn line means for health insurers. You present a fake argument though, no one is talking about removing the profit of the health insurers in the present legislation,in fact with no public option it is turning over a 47-50 million people market to the private insurers who are required to to buy insurance,that doesn't sound like destroying profits of the insurers. The poinbt is we cannot withstand the present trend of healthcare cost and rationing is taking place presently.
                  How the heck do you compare driving a car on the same level of someone with a castrophic illness. That is just STUPID, but I'd be interested in your answer to this issue raised on FDL.com:

                  "...Suppose you lived in a country whose health care system had become so dysfunctional, wasteful and inhumane that almost everyone with any sense realized it required fundamental reform. Everyone conceded that it cost from 50 to 100 percent more per person than comparable countries, yet if was producing no better and often worse health outcomes. They knew it was gobbling up the federal budget and capturing its GDP at a frightening, unsustainable pace. In addition it left at least 47 million uninsured, millions more underinsured and still more fraudulently insured, forced millions into bankruptcy, while too often treating those it presumably “cared” for in an uncaring, negligent, even reckless and sometimes criminal manner. How would you fix it? Where would you even begin?"

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 3:27 pm ET)
                      4
                    If you can't grasp the analogy I offered about driving a car above instead of saying I compared it to a catastrophic illness, don't bother me. Which is why I didn't respond to your post, it made no sense as to the question I posed to DellSueDolly.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:44 pm ET)
                      4  
                      I understand the constitutional question it just doesn't make any sense. Driving privilages is not the same as someone becoming ill and requiring care. You didn't respond because you have no response other thant to let them starve or go without. The constitutionality of the issue and the case was given to you by bintx,you just refuse to accept it. I'll be waiting for your minions to overturn SS and Medicare and Medicaid.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 3:50 pm ET)
                          5
                        If you understood it then you wouldn't have made the comparison you did, it had nothing to do with that.

                        I was responding to Dolly after I said there was a big difference between something being unconstitutional and it being a constitutional right, when she then replied "No, there's not really any difference between the two - either it's allowed by the Constitution, and therefore constitutional, or it's not allowed by the Constitution". To which I asked about driving a car, which is neither one. It is a privilege. And then she answered with some flat out lunacy about the 10th amendment.

                        You two belong together.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 3:58 pm ET)
                          4  
                          No your ideas and philosophy belong in the trash bin. Healthcare is a right and it is in the constitution, under the public good or welfare. But I'll be waiting for the case to overturn SS and Medicare. Are you off YOUR meds today?
                          Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 5:12 pm ET)
                  3  
                  No fix will be perfect, rightOn. I understand there are concerns, as there should be. But, believing in private insurance the last 15 years have only gotten us in worse trouble. There are more people without health insurance now than there were then. Unless we are prepared to begin denying care, then the only alternative is some kind of government intervention. The way we socialize costs now is truly insane. We do it at the highest costs possible with the lowest expectation of positive results.

                  I was on the opposite side of this argument 15 years ago. I argued that Hillary was full of it and the only way to control costs was to let the private insurers do it. Well, they have failed miserably and have shown no inclination to do anything but get worse. They had their chance. Now, I am inclined to let the other side have their say. I like to think I learn from my mistakes. I only hope the same can still be said for us as a country.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 5:16 pm ET)
                    3 1
                    My skepticism remains even though I am open to the changes Obama and the Democrats are proposing. You are right, the Republicans have had their chance and their track record on nearly every issue lately, including health care, is pitiful. The country wanted this when they voted a year ago, let's see where it goes. Obama deserves a chance, that is why he was elected.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (November 20, 2009 5:41 pm ET)
                      5  
                      Exactly my feeling. I have no problem admitting that I was wrong on this one. The insurance companies have not cleaned up their mess. They have made it worse. Clearly, I was on the wrong side of this one. I am inclined to let those I railed against only to be proven wrong have their chance. Elections have consequences.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by Publius39 (November 20, 2009 9:11 pm ET)
             
          Just like how nowhere in the Constitution does it give government the power to deny marriage to couples regardless of sexual orientation, and yet Federal and State governments do it all the time. See, the argument works both ways.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:52 pm ET)
            2
          nor is it his liability.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Media Mumblings (November 20, 2009 11:09 am ET)
      2 8
      If the general welfare can mean anything and everything, then why would the Founders have bothered to enumerate the specific powers of the federal government in Article 1, Section 8? It's like me giving you a set of specific rules to follow and then at the end saying you can do whatever else you want. The states would never have entered the Union under the conditons where the federal government had license to do anything it wants so long as it could be claimed that it was for the common good. The purpose of the Constitution was to limit the power of the federal government while simultaneously giving it sufficeint power to govern, but within a very limited sphere.

      Many of our Founders, especialy Madison and Jefferson, were worried that future generations would interpret the general welfare clause and necessary and proper clauses to broadly. The necessary and proper clause was meant to be 'redundant' in the words of Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. It was only meant to strenghten and concretize the powers specifically enumerated in Article 1 Section 8.

      Here is a clarifying quote from Jefferson:

      " To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the U.S." that is to say " to lay taxes for the purpose of providing the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please (emphasis Jefferson's) ; but only to pay the debts or provide for the general welfare of the Union. In like manner they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase, not as describing the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please, which might ge good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless.

      It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase , that of instituting a Congress with powers to do whatever would be 'good' for the U.S. and as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would also be a power to do whatever evil they pleased. It is an established rule of construction, where a phrase will bear either of two meanings, to give it that which will allow some meaning to other parts of the instrument, and not that which would render all others useless. Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given. It was intended to lace them up straitly within the enumerated powers, and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.

      Can he have been more clear? There are numerous other quotes similar to this one from other Fouders. This understanding of the general welfare clause was the common understanding of the Founders. Leftist historians and academics are very well aware of what the Founders meant by general welfare and necessary and proper. Many of these same people hold the classically liberal (not to be confused with state-worshipping modern liberals) ideas of the Founders in contempt. The real Constitution, as opposed to the shadow constitution under which we currently operate, checks the ambitions of the planners and statists.

      Why should any of us be surprised that a federal government which has been given the monopoly power of interpreting the Constituiton would inevitably interpret it in a way which allows it to accumulate and concentrate power? So predictable...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 11:15 am ET)
        3 9
        BINGO!

        Allowing the government to force ALL Americans to purchase health insurance by including healthcare into the "general welfare of the United States" clause is a pretty liberal interpretation, (that I dont accept) but lets run with it. Based upon that liberal logic, what would stop the government from requiring all Americans to have cell phones (safety purposes would fall under general welfare), to use GPS in our vehicles (again, for safety), to subscribe to a local newspaper (educational purposes would fall under general welfare), to join a gym (a healthy citizenry would fall under general welfare).

        I'm just sayin' let them have this and you'll let them run the rest of your life too.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 11:32 am ET)
          1 10
          Liberals also believe that "promote the general welfare" means welfare, as in the 20th century context of giving people money.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by highliter (November 20, 2009 11:45 am ET)
          2 9
          I don’t like paying for my car insurance either I think that should fit under general welfare. Hell I need a vacation from work its stressful I think the government ought to provide that to after all it’s for the good of my mental welfare. My kids need college to that’s defiantly good for their general welfare. Wow this is a great idea I should ever have to pay for anything ever again! Oops except for all the taxes to pay for this stuff Dammit!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 12:02 pm ET)
            2 8
            If you dont want car insurance get rid of your car. That'll make Al Gore happy.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by steeve (November 20, 2009 11:51 am ET)
          4 1
          "what would stop the government from requiring all Americans to have..." -- the courts. Duh.

          If you think the courts don't take the constitution into account when ruling something as being constitutional, then you have a bigger fish to fry than health care legislation.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
          6  
          so you are ok with people dieing in the streets due to lack of health care. Even those people who would like to have health care, but cannot afford it?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 12:04 pm ET)
            1 10
            Right, because Americans are dying in the streets without healthcare reform. Are you really going to trot out that bogus claim?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 1:50 pm ET)
              5  
              Tens of thousands continue to die every year because of the refusal of Republicans to get on board earlier in the 1990's with healthcare reform to insure most Americans!

              It's not a bogus claim.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by dexteritas0071418 (November 20, 2009 2:07 pm ET)
                  3
                So you're arguing that the Constitution is "bad" here, right?
                Report Abuse
              • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 3:14 pm ET)
                  5
                It is a bogus claim. Hospitals treat sick people irregardless of thier financial capacity, right now.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 3:21 pm ET)
                  4  
                  Maineiac, this is the bogus claim. Hospitals are only required to treat the immediate problem, not the root cause of the problem. I feel my heart racing, they can give me some pills and refer me to a specialist to get a new heart. NO insurance that specialist is not obligated to treat me, and the hospital. is not obligated to give me a new heart. Therefore I die. Mkae the arugument that some people might choose that, but there a many who don't; they just cannot afford the insurance.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 4:15 pm ET)
                      5
                    Show me one news story that names an American who has 'died in the street' because of lack of healthcare reform as claimed above.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:36 pm ET)
                      4  
                      No one meant literally "dying in the streets", but yeah, lots of people literally DIE in the street, under bridges, under tarps in makeshift tents and in 'houses' made out of cardboard boxes.

                      No one said either that it was "lack of healthcare reform" either.

                      They said that it was the lack of insurance that healthcare reform will remedy that caused those deaths.

                      And studies have identified tens of thousands of people each year who die because they lacked health insurance.

                      Every human is going to die, eventually. Tens of thousands of Americans die earlier than they would have because they didn't have health insurance.

                      This is not rocket science.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 4:49 pm ET)
                      4  
                      I can't believe your this ignorant of the facts. This is part of an interview by Amy Goodman with a women who lost her daughter, I'll let her explain:

                      AMY GOODMAN: What’s happening?


                      HILDA SARKISYAN: Well, we miss her. We don’t have our beautiful daughter with us anymore. And CIGNA is doing this every day, every day. And that’s why I’m out there to help other families to stop them. It’s not only CIGNA; it’s all the insurance industry, that they are placing profit before patient, and it’s not right. And they are enforcing the care of people, not their—you know, they should not enforce the care of the people to their deep pockets. It’s all about their pocket, all about the CEO, how much he makes. I miss my daughter. I had a beautiful, perfect daughter. I don’t have her anymore. I don’t.


                      AMY GOODMAN: Hilda, describe what happened to your daughter.


                      HILDA SARKISYAN: Well, we had insurance. We were covered. We thought we had insurance. So it’s like having insurance and not having insurance is the same thing. People who have insurance and don’t have it, they get the same care. But having insurance and knowing that you do have it, and you are recommended to a certain hospital, because the insurance company only pays if you go to that hospital, you go to that hospital, which in our case was UCLA. We were transferred there. By the way, that’s our fourth hospital within, I would say, three years, because they were jumping us around. And finally, you go there. My son gave her the perfect bone marrow transplant, perfect match. And my daughter needed a liver transplant. And so many requests, so many requests, and they were—the doctors were denied. We were denied, until the California Nurses Association stepped in, helped us out.


                      We had to get out and go to their headquarters in Glendale, make a scene with our family, the Armenian Youth Federation, our church. Why do we have to do that? I’m a mother who should have been next to my daughter. Only if I knew she was going to die that same day, you think I would have that energy to go out there and do that? I could have been holding my daughter’s hand and praying with her. This is not right.


                      We need a better change in this country, and I’m willing to help the President to do that. And I just want to meet him. That’s all I want to do. I want to meet him. I want him to feel how it feels not to have a daughter. He has two girls; he should know.
                      http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/9/californias_real_death_panels_data_reveals

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 7:31 pm ET)
                          4
                        I read it. Horrible. The scariest part about you libs is that you think the government is the end all fix all. You look to it for the answers as if it is perfect and money for all will fall from the sky. You dont think that the government will deny proceedures to people? Wake up. It wont be any better, it's going to be worse.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by MaineiacMan (November 20, 2009 7:31 pm ET)
                          4
                        I read it. Horrible. The scariest part about you libs is that you think the government is the end all fix all. You look to it for the answers as if it is perfect and money for all will fall from the sky. You dont think that the government will deny proceedures to people? Wake up. It wont be any better, it's going to be worse.
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by Brabantio (November 20, 2009 5:47 pm ET)
                      2  
                      It is a bogus claim. Hospitals treat sick people irregardless of thier financial capacity, right now.
                      Show me one news story that names an American who has 'died in the street' because of lack of healthcare reform as claimed above.
                      Was your point that the claim was bogus because hospitals treat all sick people, or was your point that the claim was bogus based on the actual location of people dropping dead? Give us a break, please. Your argument was idiotic, don't try to claim that you were really harping on an obvious bit of hyperbole as if it was supposed to be verifiable fact.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (November 20, 2009 5:24 pm ET)
                  3  
                  irregardless


                  Is not a word.

                  If you didn't know that, why should anyone try and debate you about something this important?
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:54 pm ET)
              3
            I havent seen any dying on the streets...living but not dying
            Report Abuse
            • Author by fantagor (November 22, 2009 5:35 am ET)
              2  
              And I haven't seen a million dollars, so I guess that doesn't exist either.

              Randy
              Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 2:52 pm ET)
          3  
          Bingo the guy says who has marbles for brains!
          Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:53 pm ET)
            2
          How about flight recorder type monitoring with remote access? would cut crime muy pronto
          Report Abuse
      • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 11:51 am ET)
        7 1
        What's predictable is that some Teabagger stained mind would come in here and start spouting your kind of nonsense.

        Article 1 Section 8 makes specific references to collecting taxes to support a navy, a militia, a post office--but nothing about an Air Force. Or a Space Program. Or a Central Intelligence Agency. Are you going to argue against the United States having those things because Jefferson and Madison never mentioned them?

        Your argument is long ago dated. The United States has been funding all kinds of programs not specifically mentioned in Article 1 Section 8 for over 200 years--and time and time again it's been ruled that the government has the Constitutional power to do so.

        Come back when you're ready to share some 21st Century thoughts. These 18th Century ideas get you nowhere.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (November 20, 2009 11:58 am ET)
          1 6
          I agree, you cannot take the constitutional as an absolute literal document, however it is very specific in limiting the powers of the federal government and by expanding and growing it and saying this is a right and that is a right is ridiculous.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 12:14 pm ET)
            6  
            I don't see how offering a government run health insurance option expands federal power. I don't see how calling for the insurance industry to stop disqualifying people for preexisting conditions expands federal power.

            What I do see are a lot of ludicrous interpretations about what the various health care bills have and have not said. How odd. The Constitution, with its broad wording, is seen by some as being a very narrow document. The health care bills, with their very specific language, inspires so many to start speculating about death panels and mandatory abortion fees.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Anarcissie (November 20, 2009 2:25 pm ET)
                2
              "... I don't see how offering a government run health insurance option expands federal power. ..."

              I haven't read the bills, but allegedly they include provisions to compel people to buy insurance. I don't see anything in the Constitution which empowers the Federal government to do that to everyone. Agreed, if they bought insurance, they and the companies they bought it from could probably be brought under the commerce clause and would be subject to Federal regulation. But not everyone buys insurance, and indeed not everyone is active commercially.

              Congress could certainly levy a tax to pay people's medical costs or support insurance companies, but the payments to insurance companies are not a tax.


              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
                4 1
                Constitutional scholars have said that it should be fine.

                Let us know when you become a Constitutional scholar, and we'll take your opinion into account on that topic.

                And if you aren't a Constitutional scholar, and haven't even read the freakin' bill, then why on earth are you trying to inform us on this topic? I swear....
                Report Abuse
              • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:01 am ET)
                  2
                nope...health insurance is barred from interstate commerce
                Report Abuse
              • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:05 am ET)
                  2
                anarcissie--


                you make a good point...would it not be simpler to tax emplyer what employers for our insurance now, hand that over to consumers and allow them to buy health care from anyone?

                Every one is covered, and since you need not ever change companies, you dont worry about preexisting conditions (by the way as a rule if you have had continuous coverage, all but the most basic plans dont bar preexisting conditions).

                awww...but that is not washington centered socialism
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Anarcissie (November 21, 2009 10:28 am ET)
                     
                  The simplest way of avoiding constitutional objections would be to enact Single Payer, which would be supported by taxes, a power explicitly given to Congress in the Constitution, and could be reasonably justified as General Welfare and Common Defense.

                  It is when the government tries to make private parties, profit-making insurance companies, the beneficiaries of compelled payments that the problems arise.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by fantagor (November 22, 2009 5:45 am ET)
                2  
                Nitpicking. Conservatives didn't say boo when Bush was undermining the CONSTITUTIONAL authority of the military by employing private contractors like Blackwater. Where was your precious outrage then?

                But now that the slaves of our society (the working poor) might have a chance at healthcare without the string of employment attached (which does them no good anyway), now your ilk is barking up a storm.

                Please stop cloaking your opposition in constitutional hair splitting. You're mostly POed that some have-nots with have a little more than not. Another right wing toot, aloft on wings of free market nonsense, as usual.

                Randy
                Report Abuse
            • Author by rrastro (November 20, 2009 11:59 pm ET)
                2
              How can government RUN health care not expand federal power?

              Again no knowledge of insurance. ALL insurance bars preexisting conditions. You buy a house with a bad roof and buy insurance,your house gets wet...you will get denied for prior damage. Your car is rusty and you get hit in the door; your insurance is likely to pay for a used door and let you pay for paint-- prior damage (and they provide a used door for a used door).
              Report Abuse
              • Author by MidnightWriter (November 21, 2009 10:15 am ET)
                2  
                Say it with me; "Government Run Public Insurance Option."

                This is not, has not, will not be about "Government Run Health Care." That term is, was, and continues to be a favorite of those who are comfortably nestled in the hip pockets of a select few who wish to maintain a system that has increased their political and financial power. They have screamed, "Be Afraid!" very loudly hoping to drown out reasonable debate, but have yet to provide any proof that the efforts to provide a service that would offer greater access to the finest medical system the world has to offer would, in any way, expand the powers of the United States Government.

                If I'm wrong--prove it. Show me the actual language in any of the actual bills that actually gives the government a power beyond the regulation and oversight duties the Constitution of the United States has already assigned. No wild speculation about "Death Panels." No absolute nonsense about "Mandatory Abortion." Nothing about what "might" happen from the noisemakers who are making a profit by fanning fear. I'm willing to listen. If you find something that clearly shows an overstep, I'll be writing my Representative and Senators and asking them to take action.

                But do not come in here with weak arguments such as, "ALL insurance bars preexisting conditions." Ummm, no, they do not. There are certain policies you cannot purchase for your property or automobile. There are circumstances where you are only eligible for high risk coverage. There are reasonable reasons to deny a car or home owner certain claims due to their own fault, abuse, or neglect. Tell me, what's reasonable about denying coverage to a woman that's been raped? What's reasonable about denying coverage to an infant that's considered obese? Yes, auto and home insurance providers can certainly choose to not sell and cancel policies to certain individuals, but they are contractually obligated to honor the legal terms of your policy for as long as you're making the payments. Requiring three estimates on the cost of a fender repair is a long, long way from cutting off someone's chemotherapy because it's just too darned expensive.

                Say it with me again; "Government Run Public Insurance Option." The United States of America offering a service to its citizens that will assist them during times of unexpected crisis.

                Just how is that a bad thing?
                Report Abuse
        • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 12:02 pm ET)
          2 7
          It is called Common Defense, and yes the post office is in there. You should try reading it sometime.

          To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MidnightWriter (November 20, 2009 12:17 pm ET)
            7  
            Ah, so you, like me, interpret the term "common defense" broadly.

            I'll also assume you, like me, interpret the term "general welfare" broadly.

            I thank you for your support.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:00 am ET)
            2
          defense is reserved to the feds, and maintaining the economy (general welfare) not usurping private enterprise.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by terrapin53 (November 20, 2009 3:30 pm ET)
        3  
        you guys that like to quote our founding fathers; doesn't the Declaration of Independence say we all have an inalienable right to life? What is wrong with the government, since the private sector won't do it on their own, try to help people achieve that inalienable right. I have never heard a politician sy it is a constitutional right.
        During the last campaign Obama said he believed that with a country as rich as ours it healthcare should be a right. He never said constitutional right. A constituional right is one the governemtn cannot interfere with by making laws...such as infringing upon free speech, etc.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:06 am ET)
            2
          the right to life refers to due process and the government is compelling purchase.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by shaggles (November 20, 2009 11:26 am ET)
      5  
      It might help if Beck tried actually reading the Constitution before he made claims about what is or isn't in it.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by markbfoot199 (November 20, 2009 11:49 am ET)
        1 7
        So Shaggles "The Constitution Man", tell us where we could find this claim, that this is constitutional? Instead of making fun of the man, prove to us you know the Constitution so well, will be looking forward to this education.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by shaggles (November 20, 2009 11:31 am ET)
      4 1
      We seem to have some new trolls today and some of the regulars who I thought knew better can't seem to resist feeding them.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by SwissMiss (November 20, 2009 1:37 pm ET)
      3  
      He must have skipped the beginning, called the Preamble. "We the people in order to form a more perfect union [ie. healthier], establish justice [healthcare not just for corporate America], and ensure domestic tranquility [no more medical foreclosures], provide for the common defense [healthcare paid innoculations and maternity care], promote the general welfare [here's the permission for social welfare programs] ... for ourselves and our posterity ..."
      It's all there. This is what the powers of the constitution were written for.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:07 am ET)
          2
        that is a very tortured meaning. how about just one point..more perfect union (than the articles of confederation)
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Anarcissie (November 20, 2009 1:45 pm ET)
      1 4
      I don't find the arguments here in favor of the constitutionality of the "health care reform" bills very persuasive. Clearly, the Commerce Clause can apply only to people doing commerce, whereas as I understand it the bills call for all persons who do not buy insurance to be fined, regardless of what they do or how they live. I don't think Helvering, which was pretty specious in the first place, can apply because the Supreme Court's opinion goes to a great deal of trouble to identify the taking of money for Social Security as a tax, whereas the present bills would compel one private person to give money to others (the insurance companies); it can't be considered a tax, which requires that money be given to the government.

      Some of the comments here seem to indicate an opinion that the Constitution doesn't really mean anything, which is curious since that idea seems rather characteristic of people like George W. Bush, who normally wouldn't be taken as a model around here.

      I find myself in the curious position of having to agree with Beck as to the evidence and arguments thus far offered. Beck may be a fool, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 4:40 pm ET)
        4  
        Constitutional scholars have said that it should be fine.

        Let us know when you become a Constitutional scholar, and we'll take your opinion into account on that topic.

        And if you aren't a Constitutional scholar, and haven't even read the freakin' bill, then why on earth are you trying to inform us on this topic? I swear....
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (November 20, 2009 5:03 pm ET)
          3  
          DD their is a very good question and answer session taking place or took place @ FDL.com with Maggie Maher a health fellow at the Century Foundation,business journalist and author of "Money Driven Medicine,the real reason Healthcare cost so much," here is the link to the discussion,she was also featured on the Bill Moyer show:
          http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-maggie-mahar-money-driven-medicine-the-real-reason-health-care-costs-so-much/
          "...The book has been made into a film, produced by Alex Gibney (best known for Taxi to the Dark Side and Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room) and featured on Bill Moyer’s Journal. Viewers can see a streaming video of the entire film, here."
          http://www.moneydrivenmedicine.org/watch-in/watch-now
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Anarcissie (November 20, 2009 8:45 pm ET)
             
          An appeal to an unspecified and unverified authority ("Constitutional scholars" in this case) is a well-known fallacy and has no validity. In any event, I believe the Constitution is something that can and should be discussed by any and all citizens, not just some sort of elite academic priesthood. Its provisions seem plain enough. If you really believe in the extremely authoritarian view you propose here, why are you discussing it at all? Are you a Constitutional scholar?

          As for the 1000-page bill, I am going by reports of it, just like you and everyone else on this web site. Everyone seems to agree that the bill compels people to buy insurance from private parties. I see nothing in the Constitution's provision of Federal powers which comes near covering this. However, the idea has been advanced in the comments here, as it has by such as Alberto Gonzales, that the Constitution is a piece of 18th-century wastepaper and can be made to mean anything those who happen to be in power want it to mean; maybe that's what the article at the top should have said. Are you sure that's a good idea, though?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:08 am ET)
            2
          wow! that is a left wing statement! Only the 'eleite' opinions matter!!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by rrastro (November 21, 2009 12:09 am ET)
              2
            perhaps we ought to ban universal suffrage, since we dont want people who arent lawyers involved in running things!
            Report Abuse
          • Author by steeve (November 21, 2009 11:57 am ET)
            2  
            Yeah, but we define "elite" differently.

            To you, an elite is someone with a huge pile of money, who by definition is therefore better than the rest of us and gets to do anything they want.

            To us, an elite is someone who's devoted their life to careful study of a subject that some armchair weenie decided to gas two thoughts about one afternoon.

            A constitutional scholar's thoughts on any constitutional subject are better than yours (and mine). Even if the scholar agrees with you in the conclusion, their thoughts are better than yours. It's because they had your thoughts years ago, and then advanced beyond them.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by speaker (November 20, 2009 7:14 pm ET)
         
      I don't want to buy insurance, I don't want to have to pay for slackers health care either. Why should I? I worked hard for my money, I have enough to pay my own health care so why should I be forced to buy insurance I don't want or need. I have lost my freedom to choose and that is what is unconstitutional.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by fawltylogic (November 20, 2009 9:04 pm ET)
      2  
      I love that a pile of paper is supposed to conjure up some really scary, scary image. Yikes, a bunch of stuff to READ! It's like Kryptonite to Glenn.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 20, 2009 9:28 pm ET)
        2  
        Well, especially since most people don't have a clue about how long normal bills are. They don't understand why bills would have to be this long. They don't understand how complicated health care is to reform, and how intertwined it all is.

        But they know that they're frustrated by too much reading, so they react to that big pile of paper.

        It's fearmongering at its worst, since there's really nothing whatsoever to fear from a big pile of paper.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by egb (November 21, 2009 12:34 am ET)
        1
      With the kind of thinking going on here and at Berkeley, there is nothing the Federal government cannot legislate. The stretch involved in the medical marijuana case (Gonzalez v Raich) is far. Basically, by piling inference upon inference, the SCOTUS has allowed the Feds to creep into every area of life. That was not the intent of the founders. If the Feds can say you can't grow marijuana in your own house, how safe do you feel from political reprisals?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by TadekKorn (November 21, 2009 12:55 am ET)
      2  
      We're simply misunderstanding FOX. Glenn Beck as a constitutional scholar is high satire! Bringing in a big gun like Erwin Chemerinsky to rebut this butthead is pure comedy!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by egb (November 21, 2009 12:58 am ET)
        1 1
        But mmfa has an agenda so they quote only half the argument. There are significant legal scholars that disagree with Chemerinsky and Balkin. They are not hard to find if you are interested.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Anarcissie (November 21, 2009 9:38 am ET)
             
          The predominant opinion here seems to be that the Federal government should have unlimited powers. The Supreme Court has been a bit more spotty, but in regard to the commerce clause, if they'll go along something like Gonzales v Raich it looks like they'll go along with anything. Whether this is a good idea is another issue; I'm just trying to guess what's constitutional, and the Constitution is legally speaking what the Supreme Court says it is, regardless of reason or common sense.
          Report Abuse

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