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Will distorted stolen CRU emails to argue against climate change legislation

November 30, 2009 9:20 am ET — 157 Comments

George Will falsely claimed that "one of the emails" reportedly stolen from the U.K.'s Climate Research Unit (CRU) said that a climate scientist "wished he could delete, get rid of, the medieval warming period [MWP]." In fact, the scientist wrote in the email that he wanted to " 'contain' the putative 'MWP' " and has stated that the email "reflected his desire to identify exactly when the Medieval Warm Period began"; moreover, Will falsely claimed that in another CRU email, a scientist wrote, "[I]t is a travesty that we cannot explain the fact that global warming has stopped."

Will falsely claimed that climate scientist wrote that he "wished he could delete, get rid of" medieval warm period

From the November 29 edition of ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos:

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (host): George, there has been a partisanizing of this issue, and then you throw in one more complication we've had over the last week. This Climate Research Institute of -- at East Anglia University, someone hacked into their email account and showed a bunch of emails between scientists, which opponents of climate change legislation said proves that they are rigging the science and trying to hide information that runs counter to their theories.

WILL: Well, it raises the question of -- we're being asked to wager trillions of dollars and substantially curtailed freedom on climate models that are imperfect and unproven. And the consensus, far from being as solid as they say it is, and the debate as over as they say it is, the emails indicate people are very nervous about suppressing criticism, gaming the peer-review process for scholarly works, and all the rest.

One of the emails said it is a travesty -- his word -- it is a travesty that we cannot explain the fact that global warming has stopped. Well, they shouldn't be embarrassed about that. It's a complicated business, and that's why we shouldn't wager these trillions.

PAUL KRUGMAN (New York Times columnist): That's not -- it's, you know, part -- all those emails -- people have never seen what academic discussion looks like. They don't -- there's not a single smoking gun in there. There's nothing in there. And the travesty is that people are not able to explain why the fact that 1998 was a very warm year doesn't actually mean that global warming has stopped.

I mean, that's loose wording, right? I mean, everything is about this -- we're really in the same situation as if there was one extremely warm day in April. And then people are saying, well, you see, May is cooler than April, there is no trend here. And that's what -- the travesty is how hard it has been to explain why that bad reasoning --

WILL: One of the emails, Paul, said he wished he could delete, get rid of, the medieval warming period. That lasted 600 years.

In fact, climate scientist wrote in email that he wanted to "contain" MWP. Michael E. Mann, a meteorology professor and director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University, wrote in the June 4, 2003, email:

Phil and I have recently submitted a paper using about a dozen NH records that fit this category, and many of which are available nearly 2K back--I think that trying to adopt a timeframe of 2K, rather than the usual 1K, addresses a good earlier point that Peck made w/ regard to the memo, that it would be nice to try to "contain" the putative "MWP", even if we don't yet have a hemispheric mean reconstruction available that far back. [emphasis added]

Mann reportedly said he wanted to identify when MWP began, not "delete, get rid of" it. According to a November 26 Morning Call (PA) article, Mann explained that his email regarding MWP "reflected his desire to identify exactly when the Medieval Warm Period began." From the article:

Mann also said his 2003 e-mail saying ''it would nice to 'contain' the putative 'MWP''' was not a call for scientists to deny the Earth warmed naturally 1,000 years ago. He said it reflected his desire to identify exactly when the Medieval Warm Period began.

Will falsely claimed scientist wrote "it is a travesty that we cannot explain the fact that global warming has stopped"

Will: "One of the emails said ... it is a travesty that we cannot explain the fact that global warming has stopped." From the November 29 edition of This Week:

WILL: One of the emails said it is a travesty -- his word -- it is a travesty that we cannot explain the fact that global warming has stopped. Well, they shouldn't be embarrassed about that. It's a complicated business, and that's why we shouldn't wager these trillions.

In fact, email referred to "lack of warming at the moment," not "the fact that global warming has stopped." National Center for Atmospheric Research climatologist Kevin Trenberth wrote in an October 12, 2009, email:

Hi all

Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming ? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low.

This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing weather).

Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth's global energy. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 1, 19-27, doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [1][PDF] (A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.[emphasis added]

Trenberth email cited "my own article on where the heck is global warming?" which addressed the "incomplete explanation" of short-term climate variations and maintained that "global warming is continuing." In the email, Trenberth was referring to a journal article in which, as Wired's Threat Level blog reported, he discussed how "global warming is continuing, despite random temperature variations that would seem to suggest otherwise." Indeed, his article covered what Trenberth described as an "incomplete explanation" of short-term climate variations, while maintaining "that global warming is unequivocally happening."

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    • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 9:27 am ET)
      5 9
      OK so where is the ORIGINAL data to support "global climate change"?? Oh let me see, we destroyed it!

      BUSTED...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by amiller4work1367 (November 30, 2009 9:37 am ET)
        7 2
        Right, they're supposed to include the full 30 years of accumulated scientific evidence in a single email. As for "ORIGINAL" data, there is no such thing, really, since scientific theory is based on supportable and reinforcing, not singular, evidenciary standards. Not sure what you think science is, but it's fairly obvious that you haven't a clue.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 6:02 pm ET)
          1 5
          Right... no one said anything about e-mails. just produce the original data, don't make excuses... there is ONE excuse they DELETED it...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:16 am ET)
            4  
            If you want the original data, you can easily get it from the original sources - the weather monitoring stations that originally provided it.

            That source data didn't get deleted - the SOURCES still have that data.

            This is not rocket science.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by vysotsky (December 01, 2009 2:51 pm ET)
               
            "Right... no one said anything about e-mails. just produce the original data, don't make excuses... there is ONE excuse they DELETED it..."


            "[N]o one said anything about e-mails"? George Will most certainly did. The hacked e-mails are at the focus of this story. And as has been pointed out elsewhere and here many times, the original figures from the weather stations are available from the weather stations and presumably from other researchers that collected data from them.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by mk3872 (November 30, 2009 9:48 am ET)
        8 2
        Oh, SNAP! Oldman has just discovered that global warming is a FARCE, man, I tells ya, a FARCE!

        Ah, the nice, warm, 70 degree sunny world of the conservative mind where ice caps are actually NOT melting, sea levels are NOT rising and water temps are NOT rising ...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mary59 (November 30, 2009 9:56 am ET)
          8 3
          Rotting guy in forest may not observe climate as anything important to our existence on the planet. Otherwise, why would he just want to parse, chop and dice the scientific consensus, so it doesn't say what it clearly does about global climate change.

          Yes, the majority of climate scientists could be wrong about the degree of disaster that they see ahead. We hope. BUT--that doesn't explain why skeptics of this would want to do nothing. That is clearly insane.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by boulderhippy (November 30, 2009 11:42 am ET)
            1 6
            It is not that skeptics want to do nothing. Most want to do things properly instead of jumping into good intended poorly thought out actions.

            The UN wants too much power to effect green economies. The UN doesn't have the best interests of the U.S. in mind when making rules on anything.

            When governments make big changes quickly, the poorest are usually the ones that suffer.

            We need to make decisions that take into account effects on economies, human rights ( ability to eat ), and the balance of power worldwide.

            I don't want someone like Hugo Chavez making decisions for my country, which could happen if we throw our power over to the UN.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by gs-425 (November 30, 2009 12:30 pm ET)
              5
            Religious are you??
            Report Abuse
          • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:33 pm ET)
              7
            Hey, great name... Thanks...

            YOU say skeptics want to do nothing... That's because your an idiot. TRY asking a skeptic what they think?

            I believe, like most skeptics that there IS climate change and global warming (for now). The climate has been changing since the beginning of the earth and will change after mankind is long gone...

            The fact is that this exposure COULD be the best think to happen to the GW movement since it began... Once the junk "science" is taken out of the picture we can seriously see what is REALLY happening and why. We can better determine how to adapt to something we have no control over, like solar activity and volcanic activity.

            You left-wing nuts have always said "big oil" is getting paid off...

            Well what about the 22.8 million dollars Phil Jones has received?? That's payout...

            A guess, NONE of you left-wing nuts will be able to produce the ORIGINAL unaltered data that has been DISCARDED, TOSSED, LOST or whatever you want to call it.

            Then tell me is 22.8 Million dollars enough pay-off to generate fake data??? YUP just ask Phil Jones...

            Report Abuse
            • Author by vysotsky (November 30, 2009 1:43 pm ET)
              4  
              "That's because your [sic] an idiot."


              Those in glass houses...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 2:45 pm ET)
                5  
                That's because your an idiot.

                Well, you know, if you want to have an open and friendly debate, it is always good to start off with a line like that.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 6:33 pm ET)
                    3
                  Yeah, how dare he reply in that manner after he is referred to as a "rotting man in forest". I keep forgetting that insults are only acceptable at this site when they are leveled at conservative or republican posters. In fact they are widely practiced by many of the great progressive minds here. I wonder why you didn't criticize the lib who used the first insult? But you wouldn't pass up the opportunity to criticize the conservative poster. This is just another example of the liberal hypocrisy practiced here.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:26 pm ET)
                      2
                    Exactly right!! thanks

                    _rotting
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (December 01, 2009 10:03 am ET)
                      1  
                      Dear hello and Mr. Rotting,
                      thanx. U R 1 2

                      I await your thoughtful presentation upon which actions we should take to address climate change, as you both realize that doing nothing is not an option.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:19 pm ET)
                  2
                that's right vysotsky - don't be throwing any stones...
                Report Abuse
            • Author by mikatollah (November 30, 2009 2:00 pm ET)
              4  
              You're not a skeptic, you are a denier. There is no need to ask what you think because we all already know... it's all published in the right wing talking points and can be found on any blog.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:35 pm ET)
                  3
                mikatollah said - "You're not a skeptic, you are a denier. There is no need to ask what you think because we all already know... it's all published in the right wing talking points and can be found on any blog."

                EXACTLY my point. PROJECTION, just because YOU use left -wing talking points as published on this very site DOESN'T mean I do... Just because others cn think and be objective, must scare you to death. PROJECTION - look it up in Websters

                and NO - I am NOT a denier, I accept that "global climate change" is a reality. It's been a reality since the beginning of the earth.

                I am skeptical of fabricated data manipulated by GW fearmongers who get paid off (22.8 million to Jones). Deleted original data, political objectives... Global governance, redistribution etc. what self respecting human wouldn't be skeptical??? You all just don't like it that the skeptics had it right all along. YOU are the denier...
                Report Abuse
            • Author by bsherman (November 30, 2009 4:58 pm ET)
              3  
              You clearly don't understand science. What exactly do you think you're going to be able to do with unaltered data. This is complicated stuff, neither you nor I can interpret the data. It's extremely esoteric stuff that takes decades of intensive study to be able to interpret.

              This is what happens when idiots like you or me or George Will try to interpret scientific writing. We have no clue, so we should just shut the heck up.

              Secondly, I'm not sure what "Lost" data you're talking about. The e-mails don't say anything about lost data.

              Thirdly, yes the climate has changed in the past and will continue to change in the future. However, the climate has never changed this fast. The change that has happened in the last 100 years is comparable to change in the past the took 10,000 years. We are in uncharted water in earth's history.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 6:25 pm ET)
                  2
                Perhaps he is referring to this data that was conveniently dumped...

                http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 6:40 pm ET)
                  3  
                  I have already explained, multiple times, as have others, why that is not an issue.

                  The data is still held by the weather stations that initially reported it.

                  There's no reason for the climate researchers to have kept it.

                  It'd be like a professor demanding that I purchase copies of every book that I use as a reference and never getting rid of them.

                  Professors don't demand that. They demand that you provide the source from which you got your documentation. The burden is then on the person asking questions about the data you included to prove that you fraudulently gathered the data.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:56 pm ET)
                      3
                    no dolly my goodness pre-school explanations:

                    1. BUT it IS an issue, YOU and other deniers saying it ISN'T an issue doesn't make it so... The theory cannot be verified or reproduced... CANNOT! duh!

                    2. Right. I suppose you know this HOW??? NOT likely these stations don't retain data for 30 years.

                    3. This has NOTHING to do with a professor. BUT if a professor asks, YOU need to PRODUCE the data you used, nothing about purchase or keep... The book(s) or references are NOT disposed of. As a last resort MANY years in the future you could use the library of congress to get the very same references you site. duh! You ever been to school? 5th grade?

                    4. It's YOUR responsibility to PROVE YOUR DATA and REFERENCES... The GW fearmongers CANNOT prove or even support the GW theory as they have no REAL data only scrubbed data... BTW the massive amounts of data coming out of CRU (and NOT just e-mails) PROVE fraudulent data gathering and manipulation. duh!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:23 am ET)
                      3  
                      1. Actually, no, it's not an issue, because the original data can be retrieved from the original sources - the weather stations.

                      2. What are you, looney? You think that weather stations don't save data? How do you think they tell us when records were set? Man, come back to planet Earth! LOL

                      3. No, you DO NOT produce your sources to the professor. You provide a bibliography, and the professor then checks it out. You don't even know this? What grade are you in now, because you can't have reached high school yet?

                      4. Nope, it's not their responsibility to provide the original data. That's a lie. You don't know what you're talking about. And it's common accepted Scientific Procedure to scrub data to insure that it's accurate and reliable. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

                      Why do fools who are uneducated morons come onto this site and think that there are a bunch of fools already posting here? You are outclassed and out of your league and out of your mind.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by rumpleteasermom (December 01, 2009 12:38 pm ET)
                        1  
                        DellDolly, you have hit the nail squarely on the head with this:
                        "Why do fools who are uneducated morons come onto this site and think that there are a bunch of fools already posting here? You are outclassed and out of your league and out of your mind."

                        I would have stated it less harshly and crudely though.

                        The problem here is that you have a bunch on non-science type people, journalists, bloggers, etc. trying to interpret e-mails written by and for scientists. (Now my inner linguist is going to show) those scientist were writing in a register reserved for communicating with other scientists. This is a register where words like 'trick' and 'contain' have a different and more specific meaning than they do to the general public.

                        In the case of the purloined e-mails, 'trick' meant 'mechanism for dealing with', 'contain' meant 'enclose, include, encompass fully'. In your post, 'scrub data' sounds shady, but what it really means is to check the data for accuracy and make sure it all is representative of reality.

                        But the overall problem is one of the general public not understanding the lingo used by the scientists.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 10:07 pm ET)
                      3
                    Professors also demand that students show their methodology and not just the answers.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:24 am ET)
                      3  
                      No, actually, professors don't. Not in things like this. Not even in papers. You do NOT have to show your notes. You MIGHT have to show the professor an outline. You don't show all the background work or your data.

                      You don't know what you're talking about.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:38 pm ET)
                  2
                Didn't say I would interpret the data. BUT the "theory" cannot be reproduced or verified by ANYONE, even competent climate scientists as the GW fearmongers NO LONGER HAVE THE ORIGINAL DATA. duh!!! they only have the manipulated data...

                22.8 million dollars is a pretty good payoff, see Phil Jones...
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (December 01, 2009 10:06 am ET)
                  2  
                  Hello...hello....can anyone trace this call and tell him where he is? Two talking points, pretty well worn by now, ain't enough.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by rumpleteasermom (December 01, 2009 12:45 pm ET)
                     
                  You don't comprehend well, do you?

                  I'll try again with what you have been told multiple times already.

                  THE DATA STILL EXISTS. OTHERS, MANY, MANY, OTHERS HAVE ALREADY REPRODUCED THE RESULTS. The Climate Research Unit didn't keep THEIR COPIES of the data because it was a waste of space. (Similarly, I read a lot of books from the library, but it would be a waste of space for me to copy and keep them all.) They knew that if they needed the data again, it was readily available.

                  So, seriously, do you understand now? The data is not gone.
                  Report Abuse
        • Author by gs-425 (November 30, 2009 12:43 pm ET)
            3
          Not not and not.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by grunt (November 30, 2009 2:45 pm ET)
          1 3
          How long have sea levels been rising? It is close to the last 50 years... around 11,000 years. Strange? All of that industrialization back before humans even existed was causing crazy amounts of sea level rise. Some ice is melting. Some is expanding. What is the net total? I don't know. Do you? What causes water temps to rise? The sun? I want answers.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 3:12 pm ET)
            3  
            You lie. You don't want "answers". You want "answers that conform to your preconceived notions."

            We know that the sun is not responsible for the increasing global temperatures. How do we know that? Because climatologists tell us that, and they get their research peer-reviewed before they publish their results, and then their results continue to be evaluated. It's called science.

            Same with sea level increases and ice. Climatologists know what's happening with the overall level of ice, and what it means. Just because you don't doesn't mean a thing.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 7:39 pm ET)
                2
              "You lie. You don't want "answers". You want "answers that conform to your preconceived notions."

              Talk about the pot calling the kettle.....

              http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/global_warming_fraud_and_the_f.html
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:26 am ET)
                3  
                I have no preconceived notions about anything, ever.

                That's one of the wonderful things about liberals. They are open-minded. Closed minds are one of the bad things about conservatives.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by rumpleteasermom (December 01, 2009 1:09 pm ET)
                   
                J.R. Dunn, needs to do a little more research. I'll debunk one point specifically:
                He says: "The Arctic Ice Melt. We've been informed for the better part of a decade that Arctic ice was melting at an unprecedented rate, and that the North Pole would be ice-free in twenty, thirty, or forty years, depending in the hysteria level of the media platform in question. In truth, ice thinning was due to a cyclical weather pattern in which winds blow ice floes south into warmer water."

                But a new study shows that those 'hysterical' scientists were probably right:
                http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws/article/yournews/41112

                What looked like old ice to satellites was not quite so stable.

                That article is chock full of similarly mistaken information.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:03 pm ET)
                2
              That's just it dolly -

              1. Interesting you call others liars. How is it you know so much about what others want. You PROJECT - YOU only want anwers the agree with you.

              2. Only an real fool would discount solar activity. This is one of the very best reason to doubt GW fearmongers.

              3. peer-reviewed by peers that agree and only those that agree (see CRU e-mails).

              4. It's called fearmongering, science would recognize the impact of the sun, of volcanic activity. Just what do you think would happen if the sun suddenly went dark? hmmm nothing, no impact. duh! You a scientist???

              5. Well as we can now tell not all "climatologists" agree and we'll no longer be able to ignore those that don't... Oh darn we'll have to practice REAL science, not 5th grade science...

              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:27 am ET)
                2  
                What a troll. Reported as such.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by rumpleteasermom (December 01, 2009 1:21 pm ET)
                1  
                Hello, honey, do you know anything about solar activity? No one s discounting solar activity. No, instead those of us who actually follow such sciency things, know that sunspots come on an 11 + 11 year cycles. (peaks every 11 years, with reversing polarity so the complete cycle is 22 years) We also know that the height of those peaks varies. And we know that the more sunspots, the warmer the earth. We are just coming out of a minimum, and it was a very low minimum. The earth should be very cool, but it isn't.

                So, no one is discarding solar activity. Some of us are actually MORE concerned because of it.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by grunt (December 01, 2009 9:37 am ET)
                2
              We know that the sun isn't responsible? Where did you get that from? Even AGW scientists admit that the sun plays a role???? What have you been reading? The question is the extent to which it plays.

              So you just believe what a group of scientists say, and discount what others say? Sounds fair. The science isn't settled. Not by a long shot. Especially when we see the amount of money these "climatologists" have received from governments and the U.N. to produce such answers.

              Why do you trust these people so blindly? Your case is worse than a religious zealot with no clue as to what or why he actually believes. You sound like the Catholic Church of the medieval times. In fact, this whole AGW debate sounds just like it. The government gives money to corrupt "leaders" in their field. Those leaders form a group that says this or that is fact. That group is more informed than the average person so who are we to dispute? Eventually the truth comes out. Some of what those corrupt leaders said was accurate, but the premise was corrupt and misguided.

              The AGW agenda was admittedly set up to resemble a religious movement.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (December 01, 2009 10:15 am ET)
                1  
                Your description sounds a lot like the deniers, all right. Thanks.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (December 01, 2009 11:32 am ET)
                2  
                So you just believe what a group of scientists say, and discount what others say?

                Yes, especially when the "others" are ignorant politicians and bloggers who repeatedly lie.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:13 pm ET)
                2  
                No, the Sun is not suddenly increasing our temperatures.

                The Sun warms our Earth, but is not responsible for the increased warming we're seeing.

                I don't trust anyone blindly. The people responding blindly would be your side. Conspiracy theorists are all alike, and you home in on one or two factoids and ignore all the evidence that counters your assumptions. That's not our side.

                Liberals are open minded.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by rumpleteasermom (December 01, 2009 1:23 pm ET)
                   
                Grunt, see my reply to Hello. Yes we know the sun isn't responsible for the current warming trend because we are in a sunspot minimum.
                Report Abuse
      • Author by alienofwar (November 30, 2009 12:41 pm ET)
        4  
        The data is right here http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/
        Report Abuse
        • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:15 pm ET)
            8
          Idiot, where is the ORIGINAL data the climate warming fearmongers have admitted TO TOSSING? Who cares about the manipulated data...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by vysotsky (November 30, 2009 1:42 pm ET)
            4  
            Please cite the e-mail in which such an admission appeared.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 3:17 pm ET)
              4  
              This was in the news yesterday, but is ultimately unimportant. It wasn't in an email. It was in response to a Freedom of Information request.

              http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece

              The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

              As I posted on another similar thread, the weather monitoring stations still have that original data, and if someone wants to check, they could gather it from there. When one is writing a report, one doesn't necessarily keep a copy of all the reference materials - only a link back to that original data so that someone else could check up on it if they wanted to do so.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 2:49 pm ET)
            4  
            Idiot, where is the ORIGINAL data

            Boy, you really like that word, don't you?

            The next line I expect to hear is:

            "Can you tell me the average temperature for last year?
            Nope, that isn't what I asked for, try again."

            It is an unwinnable aurgument because you refuse to be swayed.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 3:21 pm ET)
              3  
              He's trying to make a big deal out of news that was learned yesterday.

              But it's not a big deal at all. Keeping the original data, or trashing it, doesn't mean a thing. Those measuring stations that provided the data originally should be the resource, not the climate change people. They didn't use the original data anyway - they used data that was fixed to be accurate and usable, and since that's the data that was used, that's the data that is relevant and was saved!

              But if someone wants to go get the original data, they can get it from the original weather monitoring sites!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 7:35 pm ET)
                  2
                DellDolly - They didn't use the original data anyway - they used data that was fixed to be accurate and usable, and since that's the data that was used, that's the data that is relevant and was saved!

                EXACTLY they used data "FIXED" to be accurate. Accurate to whom?.... pathetic...
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:29 am ET)
                  3  
                  See, just because YOU are too ignorant to understand what happened doesn't mean that climate scientists and their peers don't know the proper procedures and the reasons to fix the data that needed to be fixed and adjusted.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:09 pm ET)
                2
              OK pre-school terms - the ORIGINAL data collected by the researchers BEFORE they scrubbed it (which is a normal process) to remove outliers is REQUIRED to reproduce the results. ANY scientist knows this.... One would start at the beginning with the original data, saved by the original scientist (dolly has never seen a monitoring station and has no idea what it saves or doesn't 30 years of data, no way).

              They would go through the process of scrubbing the data to insure it is accurate AFTER scrubbing, THEN and ONLY then recreate and/or verify the findings... MG

              Since the original data has been destroyed, no verification, peer-review or ANYTHING can be performed....pathetic...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:32 am ET)
                4  
                Again, if you don't know that weather monitoring stations save their data, which is what was used to compile info for the global climate change scientists, then you need to do that before any kind of conversation can be had with you. What a dork. What previous screen name did you post under before you got banned or got too embarrassed to use it anymore?

                I'll give you a clue - you can't begin to speak for any scientist or about any scientific method.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by grunt (December 01, 2009 9:46 am ET)
                    1
                  His point is that they destroyed what sources of data they used. There is no way for them to go back and recreate the experiment because they don't know what they "srubbed" and didn't "scrub". What are you not understanding?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:17 pm ET)
                       
                    That's not true, though. No 'sources' of data were destroyed.

                    The sources are the weather monitoring stations around the world. Their data hasn't been destroyed.

                    Anyone could again gather that data, and look to see where there's a typo, or where the data needs to be adjusted because the measuring equipment's location has significantly changed. Those changes have to be made in order to get significant and relevant results from long-term studies.

                    This is not rocket science.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by S.Luggo (November 30, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
            3  
            Fearmongeringing:

            [http://www.globalwarmingart.com/images/a/a2/Climate_Change_Attribution.png]
            Report Abuse
      • Author by vysotsky (November 30, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
        5  
        "BUSTED..."

        I know, it's pretty incriminating. I was especially struck by the e-mail in which the scientist wrote, "But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

        Oh wait, no, I'm confusing these e-mails with something else. Huh. Come to think of it, an e-mail in which scientists discuss analytic boundaries for climatological phenomena is unremarkable. In fact, it would be odd if scientists weren't discussing such matters in their e-mails.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:57 pm ET)
             
          BTW - It's not just e-mails... come on... you can do better.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by HeeNow (November 30, 2009 6:50 pm ET)
          2
        Oh, they'll find an excuse for that. No matter what the issue, just like the Apple iPhone App Store, instead of "There's an App For That", it's "There's an Excuse For That".

        Who wants to keep count on just this one MMFA thread? Here are some more...

        Why is there no current warming?
        Why are neighboring planets and their satellites warming?
        Why did Hudson Bay never thaw this summer?
        and on and on...

        What's the answer to every one? You've got it!

        There's an excuse for that...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:33 am ET)
          3  
          Come back when you've figured out the difference between weather and climate.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by HeeNow (December 02, 2009 9:35 am ET)
               
            Is that all you've got Dolly?

            That's your best excuse for that?

            Let us know when you can take a breather from your virtual world and actually study something.

            There is help in real life...
            Report Abuse
    • Author by mk3872 (November 30, 2009 9:49 am ET)
      5 1
      What is funny about GW deniers like George Will and Inhofe is that when you read the scientist's emails that were stolen, you see that they tried so hard for the history of MWP not to be published because the orthodoxy of conservatives that deny it is happening would use it to distort reality. And guess what ... THEY DID IT ANYWAY!!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by markbfoot199 (November 30, 2009 12:05 pm ET)
          5
        MK, what proof do you have? Looks to me the main source of data has now been shown to be cooking the books.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mk3872 (November 30, 2009 2:06 pm ET)
          2  
          Nope. Just keeping scientific data out of the hands of goofballs like the conservamedia & Republicans who will misuse the data to protect big corporate oil companies.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by markbfoot199 (November 30, 2009 4:41 pm ET)
              3
            MK, simple questions, if Exxon pays 8 plus billion in taxes each year but yet you would love to see a Exxon and other oil companies go away, how does the government make up for the lost revenues? Next question, we live in a country that allows companies to make money, Exxon has a 9% profit margin where companies like Google, Starbucks and Apple are much higher. Do you also think they are evil? Lets say "big oil" is to go away, where are all of those individuals going to do for work, we already have a 10% unemployment rate. Next, do you understand how many individuals have oil companies in there 401K's? the lose of those companies could cripple millions of Americans, but guess all is ok just to get rid of Oil. The problem with you and others that want Oil to go away, you lose sight of the big picture.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (November 30, 2009 5:29 pm ET)
              3  
              Your love of the oil companies is almost as confounding as the health care reform deniers' love of the insurance companies.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by highliter (December 01, 2009 1:44 pm ET)
                  1
                You failed to answer any of his questions. As usual!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by foghornleghorn (December 01, 2009 4:48 pm ET)
                     
                  You wanna know why I didn't answer? First, because the questions weren't directed at me. Second, because his premise of Big Oil suddenly going away was based on fantasy and adds nothing to the debate except empty rhetoric.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 6:08 pm ET)
              2  
              You're awfully busy creating false either/or's. The changes that would reduce demand for petroleum products would not simply be an elimination of industries. There would be other industries born or expanded to produce and expand what they offer that would replace the fossil fuels. Actually, I foresee the oil companies trying to jump into those new industries, I'd hope to exploit the new opportunities and not to suppress them. The tax revenues would simply come from another source, as would the net jobs. This wouldn't happen overnight, so the 401k managers in all of those investment firms would have plenty of time to evaluate the new technologies and make the appropriate shifts of their investment dollars.

              It's pretty clear who has the too-narrow point of view. You need to take your own advice and look at the REAL big picture.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:14 pm ET)
                4
              Fact is that "big oil" is heavily invested in alternate energy. This is really about redistribution and money-grubbing, phil jones 22.8 million? hmmm..
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:12 pm ET)
              3
            How could anybody possibly misuse the data more than the GW fearmongers?
            Report Abuse
      • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:11 pm ET)
          3
        and they'll finally get to the truth - BUSTED
        Report Abuse
    • Author by only_myschly3567 (November 30, 2009 9:55 am ET)
      5  
      Does George Will have any credibility to anyone who doesn't read newsmax?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by johndeever (November 30, 2009 10:17 am ET)
        3  
        But it's not just George Will. In my local paper today:

        http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2009/11/30/sheller30.ART_ART_11-30-09_A13_NLFQQ5K.html?sid=101

        LOTS of people -- in central Ohio anyway -- read (and trust) that.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mk3872 (November 30, 2009 10:17 am ET)
        4  
        Nope. He's a Dean of the DC beltway villagers ... Only his fellow pundits follow his lead.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 12:22 pm ET)
        5 1
        I watched this show on Sunday, and heard George Stephanopoulos change the subject to the Global Climate Change (GCC) and I cringed inside, knowing that he would likely address his question to George Will first, and sure enough, he did.

        It's sad to know that given Will's history, Stephanopoulos shouldn't have given him credibility he doesn't deserve but he did anyway.

        That's the reason MMFA exists, is to educate the media and eventually the public as to who they should trust.

        I've sent an email to the host to inform him about George Will's lack of credibility on this topic. I recommend that others do the same. Use MMFA's archives.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:19 pm ET)
            2
          MMFA exists at the will of george soros. It's an attempt to "control" the discussion, publish left-wing talking points...
          Report Abuse
      • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:34 pm ET)
        2 1
        J
        Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 3:01 pm ET)
          5  
          I think that's the most intelligent and well thought out thing I've ever seen you post here.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 4:30 pm ET)
            4  
            I think it's a heiroglyph of a fish hook. He may have gone down to the creek. I like the way he's communicating more clearly.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 7:41 pm ET)
          1 2
          yeah, really cute J
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Dave2 (November 30, 2009 9:56 am ET)
      1 2
      OK then, accouunt the Fortran code souurces then....

      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/25/climategate-hide-the-decline-codified/

      ; Plots 24 yearly maps of calibrated (PCR-infilled or not) MXD reconstructions
      ; of growing season temperatures. Uses "corrected" MXD - but shouldn't usually
      ; plot past 1960 because these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to
      ; the real temperatures.



      ;
      ; Remove missing data from start & end (end in 1960 due to decline)
      ;
      kl=where((yrmxd ge 1402) and (yrmxd le 1960),n)
      sst=prednh(kl)


      etc. etc.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 3:53 pm ET)
        2  
        That refers specifically to use of tree-ring data to determine temperatures. It was discovered quite a while ago that use of tree-ring data past 1960 (I don't know why) deviated from all other independently obtained temperature data. In other words, that tree ring data was incorrect for more recent decades. It was exceedingly unlikely that ALL OF THE OTHER SOURCES were wrong. As a result, it was determined that adjustments needed to be made to that data for the more recent readings, in the interest of accuracy.

        Almost all of the emails being cited that make direct reference to adjusting data are referring just to this one topic. The emailers all knew this but it isn't readily apparent to those laymen now reading them, which helps the ignorant and the dishonest keep pretending there's something there that really isn't.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 10:27 am ET)
      3 1
      Well, I think we all know that George has staked out his claim in the global warming arena. Right or wrong he is going to spew his opinion on what is going on and why. Like a lot of politicians, it isn't about what the truth is, it is how the truth can be spun to support their views.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by SLRTX (November 30, 2009 10:27 am ET)
      5 1
      So you tell me now that all these scientists spent all those years working on their PHDs just to learn how to lie and hide the truth?

      I don't remember those courses in college.

      In all these emails, this is all the deniers can come up with? For deniers, it's best for them to keep the focus on the scientists and not the science. Politics is their focus. They certainly don't understand that science operates on independent, corroborating evidence.

      1 or 2 scientists may have their opinion, but it doesn't matter, if the data doesn't support it. Those handful of lying scientists sure had the rest fooled!

      I guess all these folks will now have to re-do their web sites, and their careers. :-(

      http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html
      http://climate.nasa.gov/
      http://coaps.fsu.edu/climate_center/climatechange.shtml
      http://www.ucsusa.org/ssi/climate-change/scientific-consensus-on.html
      http://sciencepoliticsclimatechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/role-of-consensus-in-science.html
      http://www.skepticalscience.com/Klaus-Martin-Schulte-and-scientific-consensus.html
      http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11653
      http://logicalscience.com/consensus/consensusD1.htm
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7074601.stm
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092614.stm
      Report Abuse
      • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:24 pm ET)
          8
        IF you went to school you SHOULD have learned not to toss the original data, guess not... deniers pathetic...

        So does that mean we should revisit the tobacco fiasco? Remember it was "alleged" that a few scientist hid data, manipulated data, loss and tossed data... hmmm pathetic
        Report Abuse
        • Author by SLRTX (November 30, 2009 2:00 pm ET)
          4  
          Yes. I did go to college. Physics degree. And you?

          Data "cleansing" is not new. It's a part of the statistical process. But, an educated person like you should know this.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_cleansing
          http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~muthu/dqted.ppt

          No matter what the deniers want to make of a few emails taken out of context, it all comes down to the simple fact that all conclusions are independently verified.

          This process happens in ALL science, not just climate science. Why just single out climate science as the only branch that hides data, and misleads the public? Deniers single them out, because the overwhelming consensus is on the side of human-caused climate change - and that just makes them upset, like spoiled children who don't get their way.

          I guess I missed those courses on hiding data and creating cabals of co-conspirators to agree with "the plan", whatever that "plan" may be.

          Deniers claims just can't stand without that over-arching, ill-defined conspiracy. Without that conspiracy, deniers claims just fall apart.

          Just because someone doesn't understand all that sciency stuff, doesn't make an ill-informed, ignorant, misleading opinion like George Will's correct.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (November 30, 2009 3:24 pm ET)
            2  
            Thanks for the links and the information.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by SLRTX (November 30, 2009 4:24 pm ET)
              2  
              You're welcome. ;-)

              Just keeping the deniers on their toes. They sure do apply "data cleansing" to their own sets of "facts" - keep what they like & reject the rest.

              They accuse climatologists of the very thing they do themselves. But there's a difference...

              Climatology, like any science, requires independent, verifiable conclusions. Authors of papers even have to explain how they cleansed data and why. Otherwise, the peer-review process usually kicks papers back to the authors. Any scientist who admits to anyone about "hiding data" to fit the conclusions should prepare to have their careers cut dramatically short.

              Here's an example - remember the claims about "cold fusion?"
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

              The so-called "skeptics" don't always get their papers published, because they don't meet the peer-review criteria.

              Real scientists will re-investigate their claims; sometimes finding & correcting the errors, or deciding they went the wrong way & withdrawing the paper.

              But the whiners head to the blogosphere & complain about how their viewpoints are being suppressed. Boo freak'n hoo.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 8:16 pm ET)
                  2
                That's just the problem now isn't it? The published results CANNOT be verified or duplicated as the GW fearmongers tossed the original data.

                It's reasonable to take outliers out of data. (for delldolly - scrub out really weird data that can't fit) HOWEVER this process is part of the duplication and verification and it can't be done by an independent entity as they deleted the original data. These guys were/are self serving, 22.8 million for Jones who knows how much for others... probably never know.

                1. No original data.
                2. 22.8 million to Jones. others = ?
                3. No independent verification. no original data, verification was by cohorts.
                4. peer-review by selected self-serving peers....
                5. skeptics don't get their paper peer reviewed as the criteria is a moving target as stated in the e-mails.
                6. NO ONE has claimed global warming, global cooling or global climate change doesn't exist. The issue is man made climate change. It doesn't exist, never existed and won't exist in the future. Arrogance.

                Now that these money-grubbing GW fearmongers have been exposed, we can get on with figuring out how we're going to adapt to something we cannot control.

                NOW - I think it's a good plan to explore energy alternatives, reduce the dependence on domestic and more importantly middle east petroleum. Unlike you I'm NOT interested in changing from "big oil" to "big wind" just for the exercise. I am exploring a private windmill to generate electricity. I do use wind power to water livestock (horses). I have two pickup trucks and a semi that burn non-petroleum bio-fuel (diesel). The house is relatively small and passive solar.

                It sure seems like the GW fearmongers have some other goal than reducing carbon, which is NOT the most insidious of the "greenhouse gasses". Water vapor is MUCH more potent and much higher in the atmospheric concentration.

                I suppose the hypocrisy exhibited by the GW fearmongers, you know those that own HUGE mansions, fly around in their gulfstreams. They really don't help the "issue".

                I'll fall on my sword concerning algore. I did get his book from the library - "Our Choice". It's pretty elementary and MOSTLY a-political. Certainly I don't agree with everything but since you have a physics degree, you'll agree that a Chevy volt DOES cause pollution that can EXCEED that of internal combustion engine of similar power. Just not called "tail pipe" emissions.

                In any case I would recommend that everyone read the book and start thinking about what they can do to make a difference.

                computer engineering = degree I am looking at the FORTRAN not just reading the comments as anyone knows how misleading programming comments can be... Preliminary examination doesn't look good...

                Report Abuse
                • Author by SLRTX (November 30, 2009 8:58 pm ET)
                  3  
                  "The published results CANNOT be verified or duplicated as the GW fearmongers tossed the original data."

                  That would mean all the past papers would have to somehow "disappear". The papers describe the process of collecting the information. Anyone can reproduce it, or cross-reference with independent data. This has been done countless times. That's why there's a consensus that human-caused climate change is real.

                  Independent measurements corroborate the claims, or those claims are given little weight, as in the deniers claims - no evidence, no weight.

                  So the vast cabal of conspirators would have to do a total erasure of history, and wipe memories of numerous scientists in order to do what you claim.

                  But, I think I saw something like you claim in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. I believe it was called, "Total Recall".
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:39 am ET)
                  3  
                  When you can give ME any information, I'll let you know.

                  I wouldn't suggest you hold your breath waiting for that request though.

                  Clearly you don't even understand, nor do you want to understand, data cleansing.

                  Like I said, it's your side that has the problem with sticking with answers that suit your preconceived notions.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by ScienceBuff (December 01, 2009 7:04 am ET)
                  3  
                  1. No original data.
                  2. 22.8 million to Jones. others = ?
                  3. No independent verification. no original data, verification was by cohorts.
                  4. peer-review by selected self-serving peers....
                  5. skeptics don't get their paper peer reviewed as the criteria is a moving target as stated in the e-mails.
                  6. NO ONE has claimed global warming, global cooling or global climate change doesn't exist. The issue is man made climate change. It doesn't exist, never existed and won't exist in the future. Arrogance.
                  - Hello... HELLO


                  1. Most of the original data exists. The discarding of data took place a quarter century ago. Most of the original data was in published documents. Only a small amount went through perfectly normal, common-sense adjustments.
                  2. What on earth is this $22.8 million you guys are blathering on about? Is it simply grant money? If so, it's not that much. You're acting as though it's money that went into Jones' pocket.
                  3. There was plenty of independent collection and analysis of data. It was researched separately by (the Goddard Institute for Space Studies and the National Climatic Data Center, among others. Their findings were all much in line with each other's.
                  4. Utter and complete nonsense. You can't back that up.
                  5. Skeptics mostly haven't produced much worthy of passing the peer review process. I've read the same whine from creationists, claiming that their "science" wasn't allowed to pass peer review.
                  6. Actually, there have been a good number who have claimed outright that global climate change doesn't exist. As for your other claim, isn't it a pretty healthy dose of arrogance on your part to make an outright claim that no way, no how, man has been a significant contributor? Are you that much in mastery of all the scientific data? I think your fanaticism is showing.
                  Report Abuse
    • Author by NH (November 30, 2009 11:45 am ET)
      3 10
      Give it up! They've been exposed. The emails said what they said no matter how you spin it.

      Anyone with half a brain knows that man cannot change the climate!

      And people now know why this and 'health care' is more about controlling people and redistributing the wealth.

      If you look at the comments on that "Hopenhagen" website, you will see things like "Fair distribution of the wealth gives me hope". They are right in the open about it. AND, the people behind it have been telling us for years this was contrived. But do you sheeple listen? There are hundreds of passages in books and quotes from speeches from the utopian elites that Obama works for... their purpose is clearly stated. Waked up stupid ones!

      "It would seem that men and women need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together... The need for enemies seems to be a common historical factor... Bring the divided nation together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one INVENTED for the purpose... Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power...

      In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill.... The real enemy then is humanity itself."

      -- The First Global Revolution - The Vacuum (1991) published by the Club of Rome.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 11:55 am ET)
        8 1
        Anyone with half a brain knows that man cannot change the climate! - NH

        Thank you for speaking out for all the people with half a brain. Now please leave those of us who use our full brains alone.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by markbfoot199 (November 30, 2009 12:09 pm ET)
          2 9
          Hey Butt, bad news for you. There is no GW.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:37 pm ET)
            5
          If you had anything more than 3 braincells, you'd open your eyes and stop being a denier....

          Original data??? where oh where is the original data?

          22.8 million to Phil Jones... hmmm... Pathetic...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 2:48 pm ET)
            6  
            About a quarter of a century ago, CRU discarded some original files because of storage space concerns. They thought it was unnecessary to keep it because the data had been published, though a small portion of it had undergone adjustments for accuracy. For example, urbanization effects, changes in instrumentation, site location, and observation time. The bulk of what was published was unadjusted. Only a very small amount of that original data is actually missing; most was published.

            Beyond that is the fact that the data CRU collected was independently collected by other research facilities. None of the published data from CRU was found to be significantly different from the data accumulated from those other, independent organizations (the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, the National Climatic Data Center, e.g.).

            The discarded CRU data is only a tiny portion of all of the climate data collected. Of that tiny portion, an even tinier portion can actually be said to be gone. The discarded data makes for good bloviating, but is pretty much irrelevant scientifically.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:24 pm ET)
                 
              ScienceBuff, but alas not a scientist... a scientist NEVER discards the original data. Without the original data the research cannot be verified or replicated.

              It's true, "scrubbing" is a normal part of research. HOWEVER you, nor I, and NO ONE ELSE will ever know exactly how or how much of the data was scrubbed. ScienceBuff? HA!!!

              Report Abuse
        • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
          4  
          Thanks, ScienceBuff. That hanging curveball would have been hard for me to lay off.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 2:59 pm ET)
            4  
            Yeah, but I'm still reeling from that incredible smackdown reply from markbfoot199. [insert exaggerated eye roll here]
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 4:23 pm ET)
              4  
              Why should he add details? It's already been explained; there is no Global Warming,due to the average American's ignorance of science.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:26 pm ET)
                   
                Science, is that where the scientist gets paid off t othe tune of 22.8 million dollars? or where the scientists deletes the original data? hmmm.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by markbfoot199 (November 30, 2009 4:35 pm ET)
                4
              I know the truth hurts.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 4:45 pm ET)
                4  
                That's a good sign, Mark. You know at least one thing. The good news is, you can address your ignorance yourself, and avoid the pain of having the truth pointed out.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:25 pm ET)
               
            grand slam out the park.... ScienceBuff... HA!
            Report Abuse
      • Author by Talisman (November 30, 2009 12:08 pm ET)
        1 2
        I found this on youtube. It kind of puts the whole thing into one scary package.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvcuylMrkXk
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 4:20 pm ET)
          3  
          Thanks, Talisman, that video gets a big thumbs-up. PowerPoint and Tinfoil Hat can be pretty convincing when combined.

          Other highlights:

          -The first voice-over guy sounds like Glenn Beck after he hits puberty

          -The authority voice-over guy pronounces "conservancy" to rhyme with "fancy".

          -The inclusion of a segment from Hannity to support a crackpot scientific conspiracy theory.

          This video (or similar sources) seem to be where a couple of posters here are getting their information.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Talisman (December 01, 2009 5:13 pm ET)
               
            I like the way it tries to take every enviromental cause ever and link it to world domination.

            Therefore making the equation:

            Liberalism = Enviromentalism

            Enviromentalism = world domination

            World domination = bad therefore Liberalism = bad

            This email-gate has less to do with the global warming science and more to do with attacking the Democrats. This wouldn't have ever come up if we weren't in the middle of a major health care reform where the Democrats are making headway. It's purely a desparate measure for the desparate right.



            Report Abuse
      • Author by LarryE (November 30, 2009 12:15 pm ET)
        8  
        Ah, another conspiracy monger. "It's all a big plot, y'see - they're all in on it! Really! No, wait! Come back! Oh, I get it - they got to you, too!"

        I remember reading some years ago some speculation by a group of psychologists on why grand conspiracy theories are so persistent in culture and popular among some. Their idea was that some people can only deal with big and/or portentous events by assuming there must be some hidden plot behind it. In this case, since even they can't image that various aspects nature itself are consciously conspiring against us, it must be that the event - global warming - itself is faked.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by alienofwar (November 30, 2009 12:47 pm ET)
        5  
        Yet you don't have any evidence to back up your conspiracy theory. Where is the data? Where are the statistics? Where are the credentials? Where are the experts?

        It's just you and your mind connecting unrelated dots together.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by oneleft (November 30, 2009 12:02 pm ET)
      5 1
      What annoys me is when the s*&t hits the fan these people will be dead and gone. Mary59 is dead on:

      "Yes, the majority of climate scientists could be wrong about the degree of disaster that they see ahead. We hope. BUT--that doesn't explain why skeptics of this would want to do nothing. That is clearly insane."

      Why would they not want to make sure? If the scientists are wrong the worst is that we have made leaps and bounds in alternative energy sources. If they're right then we have improved our chances to continue living here.

      Will wrote that we have "decades" of fossil fuel left, that we have enough natural gas for 100 years. Gee, that's nice. As long as his butt is covered what's there to worry about?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by gs-425 (November 30, 2009 12:52 pm ET)
          9
        Why would they not want to make sure?

        Mary59 seems fine to invoke the scientific version of Pascals Wager and make everyone abide by strict guidelines and redistribute wealth to make the innovative nations of the West pay for the poorer nations because of the notion of "just in case".

        Now, would you be willing to give your life to a religious zealot telling you how to live your life "just in case" there is a god and a heaven and hell?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 12:58 pm ET)
          7  
          No I think her point was that if your actions are causing harm then maybe you should modify your actions.

          Was there a hidden line there about wealth redistribution, that I didn't see?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by gs-425 (November 30, 2009 1:16 pm ET)
              6
            One of the main deflections that deniers get when questioning the very premise of AGW is, "even if we are not sure man is at fault, then why not reduce emissions just in case?" Hence the scientific version of Pascal Wager.

            Climate Control legislation is nothing but a redistributive mechanism of Western wealth to either poor or corrupt nations. Plain and simple. Do try and keep up.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 3:19 pm ET)
              2  
              Historically, Pascal's Wager was groundbreaking as it had charted new territory in probability theory, was one of the first attempts to make use of the concept of infinity, marked the first formal use of decision theory, and anticipated the future philosophies of pragmatism and voluntarism

              gs-425
              Climate Control legislation is nothing but a redistributive mechanism of Western wealth to either poor or corrupt nations. Plain and simple. Do try and keep up.

              It isn't that hard to keep up, at least not when you are peddling a conspiracy theory. Part of the whole concept of "just in case", is that you do the math. See above: decision theory, etc.

              Obviously you have made up your mind, thus, no debate.
              Any data that refutes your decision is to be ignored or ridiculed.

              If you had paid attention you would know that I am a skeptic but; unlike you I haven't made up my mind. From what I have seen the data (that you claim to be false) is pretty convincing. It doesn't mean that I am totally sold on the idea of man made CO2 being the cause, since it could be the result of some other mechanism, but it does mean that I am willing to look at that data.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by gs-425 (November 30, 2009 3:25 pm ET)
                  2
                And you haven't made up your mind?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 4:10 pm ET)
                  3  
                  If you had paid attention you would know that I am a skeptic but; unlike you I haven't made up my mind. From what I have seen the data (that you claim to be false) is pretty convincing.

                  From my earlier posting.

                  My biggest concern with this issue, as with others, is that if it is possible to "prove" it, one way or the other, it will be proven in the future when none of us around. The problem being, if we need to take action, now is the time, not later.

                  Regardless of the cause, some of our concerns should be:
                  Will excessive glacier melt effect ocean currents or ecosystems.
                  How will methane release from thawing tundra areas, etc, affect climate and ecosystems. And so on.

                  Do we want to have an intellegent and open debate or do we want to sit around call each other "idiots", etc?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:39 pm ET)
                       
                    To take this a little further. So we "take action", what happens if the action we take is worse than no action.

                    We need to get passed the fearmongering and faked , deleted data to actually determine what IS happening so we can make REASONABLE decisions about our future.

                    It's time to determine what actually causes climate change so we can learn to adapt to what we can't change.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 1:47 pm ET)
            3  

            Was there a hidden line there about wealth redistribution, that I didn't see?


            You may need to add another layer of tinfoil to your hat to read the secret messages, Bilbo.

            I don't understand why people like Will even bother distorting or paraphrasing these emails. It's pretty obvious that those who are determined to not understand the science can do that just fine even when given the actual wording.

            Deniers like Will do a lot of unnecessary work by twisting quotes that the average right-wing cultist doesn't understand anyway.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:41 pm ET)
                 
              Really, have you read ANY of the e-mails or ANY of the FORTRAN? Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.... stop PROJECTING (Try Websters)
              Report Abuse
        • Author by oneleft (November 30, 2009 2:49 pm ET)
          3  
          "Now, would you be willing to give your life to a religious zealot telling you how to live your life "just in case" there is a god and a heaven and hell?"
          First you'll need to show that a religious zealot is behind this. Nice words and all but you're saying it just doesn't fly.
          Besides, I'm covered. My sister is a Mormon and they believe in baptizing the deceased. I told her to go ahead, cover my arse. In fact if anyone else knows about salvation being handed out after the fact sign me up.

          "Climate Control legislation is nothing but a redistributive mechanism of Western wealth to either poor or corrupt nations."

          Uh, ok pumpkin. You have some facts there somewhere handy?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:42 pm ET)
               
            Start with the CRU e-mils then look at the code?
            Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 3:40 pm ET)
          4  
          Mary59 seems fine to invoke the scientific version of Pascals Wager ... - gs-425
          I can see where you're going with your analogy, but it has a fatal flaw. Pascal suggested one should live life based on the possibility that supernatural suppositions with no empirical support were true, just in case they are. The case Mary59 and oneleft present is that we should base our actions on the likelihoods indicated by the mountains of scientific evidence indicating AGW because the consequences of being wrong are so significant.

          Pascal is embracing fear of the unknown. Mary59 and oneleft embrace using what is known.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (November 30, 2009 5:11 pm ET)
            2  
            Yeah, the Pascal's Wager analogy is just off by about 180°. The easy, comfortable position is to deny Climate Change, just like denying mortality.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by boulderhippy (November 30, 2009 4:32 pm ET)
            2
          Now, would you be willing to give your life to a religious zealot telling you how to live your life "just in case" there is a god and a heaven and hell?

          The operative word is willingly. When the world govt. dictates what will happen, there is no willingly involved.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by jeffro (December 01, 2009 4:06 am ET)
          2  
          redistribute wealth to make the innovative nations of the West pay for the poorer nations because of the notion of "just in case"
          "just in case" there is a god and a heaven and hell?
          I'm Christian. My dogma tells me Exactly where YOU are going. God help you.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by oldmaninblackforest (November 30, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
          5
        See left-wing nut stupidity. The GW fearmongers are leading people down the wrong PATH. Climate change is real, sometimes warming, sometimes cooling...

        So lets assume it's warming, OK we now know that it's NOT human caused so NOW with the garbage data tossed we can focus on how to adapt to either warming or cooling...

        Where is the original data??? NOT the manipulated data used to make the "hockey stick".

        Why did Phil Jones get 22.8 Million?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by foghornleghorn (November 30, 2009 2:09 pm ET)
          4  
          Where is the original data???

          Data, schmata. How do you reconcile the fact that for the first time in known/recorded history you can sail a ship through the Arctic Circle?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by highliter (November 30, 2009 4:50 pm ET)
            1 2
            The earth is 5 billion years old and you going to go off the last few hundred years.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (November 30, 2009 5:33 pm ET)
              3  
              Known/recorded history goes back a little further than a few hundred years, especially with the advances in science. You know, science, that elitist liberal intellectual thing that explains how the world works.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:49 pm ET)
                   
                Science, as twisted by GW fearmongers... left-wing nuts...

                I suppose you think the use of liberal and intellectual are reasonable in the same sentence - NOT, proof - just read this site...
                Report Abuse
              • Author by highliter (December 01, 2009 1:39 pm ET)
                   
                IT wasn’t until the last few hundred years that we had the capability of sailing through the Arctic Circle. Are you talking about the science that changes every few decades because their wrong. You know global cooling predicted in the 70, global famine predicted in the 80,s all the cat 5 hurricanes dentin to hit the US after Katrina. Now its global warming and in a few more years after all the dire predictions don’t happen “Science” will shift to another pending global catastrophe and you will be stupid enough to buy into that one to.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by foghornleghorn (December 01, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
                     
                  No, it wasn't until THIS YEAR that we had the capability of sailing through the Arctic Circle for the FIRST TIME in recorded/known history. That's a reality. Not a prediction. Not a theory. A REALITY.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by highliter (December 01, 2009 5:11 pm ET)
                       
                    You are literally too stupid to argue with. I’m going to go talk to my dog. At least he has more to say that tiered old left wing talking points.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:46 pm ET)
               
            Why climate change of course. NO ONE says the climate isn't, hasn't or won't change... What is being said is the data was manipulated to make it appear it's related to humans...

            FYI - the climate has been changing since the Earth came into existence. And guess what humans weren't always around to blame.

            Of course, you don't WANT to see the data or have it reproduced by others because it'll take the wind outts your sail...
            Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 2:56 pm ET)
          3  
          What's your hangup with the $22.8 million? It's not as though it went into Jones' pocket. That's actually a reasonably modest amount for scientific research on that scale. Frankly, I can't find any substantiation for the amount. Can you provide your source?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by S.Luggo (November 30, 2009 6:21 pm ET)
          2  
          Fearmongering & silly liitle rise in greenhouse gases:
          http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/File:Climate_Change_Attribution_png
          [http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/File:Climate_Change_Attribution_png]
          More fear mongering:
          http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/File:Instrumental_Temperature_Record_png
          http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/File:1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison_png
          Report Abuse
    • Author by jrundin (November 30, 2009 4:45 pm ET)
      2  
      You know, the question I never see asked of global-warming deniers is, "Just who do you think benefits from this massive fraud that you claim is taking place?"

      I mean, it's quite clear that many powerful, wealthy interests have all the reason in the world to deny global warming and suppress knowledge of it.

      But what ever would be in it for the scientists to perpetuate a fraud like global warming?

      For that matter, individual scientists benefit from proving others wrong. The game of science would give incredible incentives to any scientist who can prove it wrong to do so.



      Report Abuse
      • Author by bilbo_dies (November 30, 2009 6:06 pm ET)
        2 1
        You know, the question I never see asked of global-warming deniers is, "Just who do you think benefits from this massive fraud that you claim is taking place?"

        Usually their answer to this would be "Al Gore".
        Of course this ignores the fact that Al doesn't need global warming to get rich.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 7:46 pm ET)
            2
          "Of course this ignores the fact that Al doesn't need global warming to get rich"

          He's already done it.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by ScienceBuff (November 30, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
        2 1
        Quite a few of them claim that it's research grant money, as though that's the only topic for which such grant money is available. Then there are the truly, deeply paranoid few who think that thousands of scientists are complicit in a plot to achieve a one-world government. You know, idiots.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by oneleft (November 30, 2009 6:27 pm ET)
        2  
        That is the question isn't it? Corporations that make untold billions from fossil fuels hire faux scientists that denounce global warming and it's the real scientist with absolutely nothing to gain that are behind this fear mongering.

        It's as clear as day. The scientist are up to something.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:56 pm ET)
             
          Why is it that some scientist make untold billions from fossil fuel and the others that promote GW fearmongering are as pure as the driven snow... PROOF CRU DATA, where's yours?

          Big fossil fuel corporations aren't going to lose, THEY are the ones most heavily invested in alternatives... They aren't stupid... You?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:52 pm ET)
           
        ARE YOU JOKING - Phil Jones 22.8 Million, algore potetially the first eco-billionare. politically the global one goernance, the redistribution of wealth...

        The GW fearmongers hid and deleted data so they could NOT be proven wrong. duh!!!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Goffer72 (November 30, 2009 8:15 pm ET)
        2
      Seems like much adoo over a trace gas which makes up only a tiny fraction of 1% of our atmosphere.

      Why the panties in a wad?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Dan in FL (November 30, 2009 8:41 pm ET)
        1
      "Almost all scientists agree that the science is settled." Of course, that doesn't count the 31,486 American scientists who have signed the Petition Project,(9,029 with PhDs), including Physicist Frederick Seitz who was President of the US National Academy of Sciences and of Rockefeller University. He received the National Medal of Science, the Compton Award, the Franklin Medal, and numerous other awards, including honorary doctorates from 32 Universities around the world.
      The petition says "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments on the Earth."

      Report Abuse
      • Author by fairliberal (November 30, 2009 10:23 pm ET)
        1 1
        For those who are unfamiliar with the Petition Project, here is a link.

        http://www.petitionproject.org/

        I guess this might contradict the claim yesterday that 95% of the world's scientists believe that GW is real . No one could prove that false claim, but many gave it thumbs up. Standard procedure, libs never have to prove what they say, that is for cons only.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jeffro (December 01, 2009 4:19 am ET)
          1  
          I guess this might contradict the claim yesterday that 95% of the world's scientists believe that GW is real . No one could prove that false claim, but many gave it thumbs up. Standard procedure, libs never have to prove what they say, that is for cons only.

          http://www.petitionproject.org/
          Follow the Money. Corporate Funded. You Are a Sucker.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by oneleft (December 01, 2009 7:43 am ET)
            1  
            sorry, but you'd believe wrong.
            so let's have a look at this petiton project. why yes, yes indeed, many of them do qualify as "scientists". in the field of medicine, mathematics, biology, physics, engineering... you get the point.
            now, what is wrong with this picture? well, being a scientist in medicine hardly qualifies you as an expert in environmental issues.

            also, this little ol' petition originally included many fake names. now also of importance is that the paper was never peer reviewed or published.

            i could go on but what's the point.

            so you can take your little "libs never have to prove what they say" attitude and go get yourself an adjustment.

            ok pumpkin?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (December 01, 2009 12:21 pm ET)
                 
              You read his post wrong. He was copying and mocking another poster. Try again.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by Talisman (December 01, 2009 5:38 pm ET)
        1  

        Is this the same Frederick Seitz who was the principal scientific advisor to the R.J. Reynolds medical research program, and was credited for spin campaign used for confusing the public and clouding the link between tobacco use and cancer?

        I guess you stick to what your good at.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Hello... HELLO... Is there anybody out there? (November 30, 2009 9:59 pm ET)
         
      Trying to frame the discussion as "deniers" isn't working. The deniers are the left-wing nuts that want to suppress the "possible" corruption and manipulation of data to support preconceived beliefs...
      Report Abuse
    • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (November 30, 2009 10:16 pm ET)
        2
      You gotta love the science in this quote: "but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate."
      The data are wrong! Well no wonder global warming is so hard to prove!
      These yahoos are not scientists, they are science fiction writers. And we're supposed to curtail human prosperity so these guys can indulge their "Chicken Little Sky-is-falling" schtick.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (December 01, 2009 10:13 am ET)
        1  
        I just luv your science 2.

        Somehow you've gotten the idea that an overwhelming consensus amongst genuine climate scientists is equivalent to a few dissenters plus George Will and EXXON Mobil. That's interesting scientific sampling, my friend....
        Report Abuse

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