Quick Fact: Wallace continues to distort stolen climate emails
During the December 13 broadcast of Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace read excerpts from two of the emails that he claimed "were either leaked or hacked" from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, falsely suggesting that the emails may not have been stolen. Wallace also claimed that the email referring to "Mike's Nature trick ... to hide the decline" was "talking about to hide the decline in temperatures" and read a comment from another email without providing the necessary context.
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Wallace falsely suggests CRU emails may not have been stolen
From the December 13 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace:
WALLACE: Gentlemen, let me bring in -- 'cause I'm sure viewers are screaming at this point. They want to hear about Climategate, and they want to hear what the two of you have to say. And this of course are the hundreds of emails that were either leaked or hacked from one of the leading climate research centers in the world that happens to be in Britain. And let's put up just two that have caused some of the greatest concern.
From 1999: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e. from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline." He's talking about to hide the decline in temperatures.
And from 2009: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. ... Our observing system is inadequate."
Fact: CRU officials have stated that emails were obtained through "a criminal breach of our security systems"
In its initial response to the reported theft, officials at the University of East Anglia stated: "Recently thousands of files and emails illegally obtained from a research server at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have been posted on various sites on the web." In a statement about the controversy, CRU vice chancellor of research Trevor Davies stated: "We are committed to furthering this debate despite being faced with difficult circumstances related to a criminal breach of our security systems and our concern to protect colleagues from the more extreme behaviour of some who have responded in irrational and unpleasant ways to the publication of personal information." Davies further stated, "Although we were confident that our systems were appropriate, experience has shown that determined and skilled people, who are prepared to engage in criminal activity, can sometimes hack into apparently secure systems. Highly-protected government organisations around the world have also learned this to their cost."
Fact: "Decline" refers to unreliable tree-ring data, not actual temperatures
In a November 26 article, The Morning Call of Allentown, Pennsylvania, reported that Penn State scientist Michael Mann -- whose "trick" was referenced in CRU director Phil Jones' email -- "said his trick, or 'trick of the trade,' for the Nature chart was to combine data from tree-ring measurements, which record world temperatures from 1,000 years ago until 1960, with actual temperature readings for 1961 through 1998" because "scientists have discovered that, for temperatures since 1960, tree rings have not been a reliable indicator." In a November 20 post, RealClimate.org's staff, which is comprised of several working climate scientists, including Mann, similarly stated:
As for the 'decline', it is well known that Keith Briffa's maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the "divergence problem"-see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while 'hiding' is probably a poor choice of words (since it is 'hidden' in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.
Fact: Trenberth's "travesty" email referred to "inadequate" system of observing short-term variability, not long-term trend
In an October 12 email, National Center for Atmospheric Research scientist Kevin Trenberth cited "my own article on where the heck is global warming" and wrote: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate" [emphasis added].
Fact: Trenberth published similar comments in the journal article he cited in email
Wired's Threat Level blog reported that Trenberth "says bloggers are missing the point he's making in the e-mail by not reading the article cited in it. That article -- An Imperative for Climate Change Planning (.pdf) -- actually says that global warming is continuing, despite random temperature variations that would seem to suggest otherwise." RealClimate.org similarly stated in a November 23 post that "[y]ou need to read his recent paper on quantifying the current changes in the Earth's energy budget to realise why he is concerned about our inability currently to track small year-to-year variations in the radiative fluxes." Indeed, the Trenberth article referred to what he called an "incomplete explanation" of short-term climate variations, and maintained that "global warming is unequivocally happening."
Wallace previously claimed emails "leaked"
On the December 6 edition of Fox News Sunday, Wallace stated: "All this, of course, comes amid the growing controversy over global warming which some people are calling 'Climategate.' It involves more than a thousand emails that have been leaked that indicate that some of the climate scientists were apparently fudgers and tried to suppress opposition comments."

















And here is the crux of the matter; Wallace, as a supposedly dispassionate journalist with no axe to grind, makes a statement that obviously shows his own bias.
Chris:
The emails were STOLEN, not leaked.
The emails do not show that scientist were fudging the data.
If this is "Fair and Balanced" what is it like when you are "un-fair and biased".
They show cherry-picking of tree ring data, "hiding the decline" by purposely leaving tree ring data off of the hockey stick chart, trying various "tricks" to hide the medieval warming period 1000 years ago which is warmer than our time and an even greater warming period 10000 years ago.
They leave off inaccurate tree ring temperature data because it's, wait for it, inaccurate! There's good reason to leave off data that's inaccurate, for cripes sake. How can you possibly argue against that?
They don't do any trickery to hide the medieval warming period. That's a lie.
And we know that there have been warmer times.
The issue is how fast it's warming right now, and the fact that we have 6 billion people in the Earth right now, and the fact that virtually all of the Earth is owned by one person or another, and so people displaced by global warming's climate changes can't simply pick up and move!
You dishonest troll. I understand you used to post here. You didn't learn anything in your absence apparently!
People can always move and historically warm times were good times.
Climate scientists aren't stupid, and aren't blinded by their ideology like you are.
I mean, how stupid ARE you? If it was as simple as measured temps being higher than normal because of increased pavement, don't you think that someone actually qualified to think about this subject would have completed and submitted a peer-reviewed paper about it?
Some of you trolls are so dense it's amazing you know how to type!
And no, people can't always move. That's an ignorant and uneducated thing to say. Virtually the whole inhabitable Earth is owned by someone. There are 6 Billion people on the Earth. Somewhere close to 15 million people are likely to be seriously affected by rising sea levels in the next 50 years - those people can't just back their homes up 100 yards every 10 years, and move their docks and piers and pay to dredge harbors and repair sandbars, etc, etc, etc.
Warm times were good times in some regions, and not so much in other regions. But people aren't as mobile as they once were. Primitive societies, even medieval societies, didn't have skyscrapers just above sea level, did they?
I swear - how can it be that you didn't think this through? What a tool.
The fact that you still say there was "good reason to leave off the data" to describe the trick used to either "hide the decline" or just truncate the tree-ring proxies speaks volumes to your bias on this issue. Your already strained and miniscule credibility on the subject had long ago vanished so it would be best to refrain from your typical vociferous, regurgitating, know-it-all rants when really your foundation is built on shifting sand. My rebuttal in regards to the decline to SLRTX here (and your boyfriend previously here) were subsequently largely vindicated by your friend McIntyre here and, more importantly, by the graphs released by the CRU themselves in their 11/24 statement.
And before you go on your tired "McIntyre doesn't have a leg to stand on" diatribe, why don't you for once try to actually address the actual content of the work there? I'll answer for you. Because it is a lot easier for you to engage in ad hominem attacks than to actually provide anything of substance to the MMfA audience. Pathetic. So if you are for once up to the task, please show us where the decline is "hidden in plain sight" as your friend Schmitty over at RealClimate described it and MMfA again parroted in this story (and I'm guessing you don't realize that your repeated links to RealClimate throughout this thread--Michael Mann's pet project--expose just how biased and narrow-minded you are).
While you're at it, please point out to all of us the Medieval Warm Period on the CRU/WMO graph. No "trickery" involved at all I'm sure. And actually, I just now noticed, take another look at the tree-ring reconstruction (green Briffa line in the same graphs) and tell us all why the large "divergence" problems seen when compared against the other proxy reconstructions were acceptable when they happened from 1600-1700, 1750-1780, and 1830-1880, but were not acceptable from 1960-2000. What a joke you guys are for defending the "trick."
As for your pavement high horse, how stupid are you to claim that the subject of the UHI effect hasn't been covered in peer-reviewed papers? And by the way, your buddies Karl and Hansen seemed to have thought there were issues with the observing systems, and they wrote that a decade ago. Here's a nice excerpt form their executive summary:
There has been a lack of progress by the federal agencies responsible for climate observing systems, individually and collectively, toward developing and maintaining a credible integrated climate observing system, consequently limiting the ability to document adequately climate change.
They also said that "the ability to monitor the global climate was inadequate and deteriorating." Since they raised the alarm a decade ago, let's take a look and see a few examples of how well "adjustments were made to account for those changes" such as asphalt, AC units, etc. Here's a beauty. Now please point out where exactly the adjustment for a trash-burn barrel was made. Here's another with the station on the roof and the resulting data. And the fact that nearly 70% of the surface stations assessed thus far score as CRN4-5 (temperature error greater than 2 or 5 degrees) is completely irrelevant to the discussion. And don't worry, they've taken all of this stuff into account. In fact, here's an example of what GISS did just last month illustrating changes to the RAW DATA from July (the example is for Illinois stations but similar adjustments were made to the entire network--we're still trying to figure out why). Notice a trend Dully? But I know, none of this matters to you. After all, I've never made a valid point of any MMfA thread. Well, so much for short and sweet. What can I say? Your idiotic posts inspire me.
McIntyre has been thoroughly discredited.
And the fact that you don't know that the Medieval Warming Period was a localized event and didn't reflect worldwide global warming is very telling.
And what's telling is the fact that yet again you fail to back up your claims with anything of any substance. You chose instead to "engage in ad hominem attacks" as I had expected you would (at least you're not predictable).
What's even more telling is your confidence in your assessment of the MWP as a localized event. I'm going to guess your source for your misinformation is either Wikipedia where Mann's take on the MWP is quoted, or RealClimate where, coincidentally enough, Mann's take on the MWP is quoted. Yet another Dully pattern is reinforced: swallowing whole AGW propaganda without even hinting at a brain cell's worth of independent thought and parroting AGW scripture nearly verbatim. That inspires another nickname to add to my list: DullPolly.
As for your claim about the MWP (notice, I actually address the science, unlike you Polly), I'm on the fence. Should I go with the Dully/Mann "science is settled" approach based off of cherry-picking with blinders firmly attached, or should I go with NOAA's stance where they say that the regional patterns and magnitude of warmth "remain an area of active research?" And they actually use Mann/Team/IPCC hockey sticks for their basis and lean your way, but still they aren't even claiming "robust" proof as you do.
How about man-of-the-hour Briffa? In this email he says, "I believe that the recent warmth was probably matched about 1000 years ago."
What about peer-reviewed papers? Surely there can't be any speaking to the potential global extent of the MWP, right?
Now I could direct you to the CO2 Science MWP project page since their results likely represent the most comprehensive investigation to date into the matter, but I can already hear you bellowing about bias (but of course it's A-OK for you to direct people to RealClimate). So I will instead pre-emptively provide you with links to papers that prove you yet again squawk so self-assuredly but fail to back up your squawking. Enjoy.
We all knew about the MWP in Canada, Europe, and Russia, but again, just "localized events" according to you I'm sure. I wonder if chronologies support "the large-scale occurrence of the MWP over the NH extratropics."
But that's all NH related you're saying. Surely there is no evidence other than that that the MWP may have been more of a global event, just way up north, Viking/Greenland stuff, you know? There's no way. Dully and Mann said so.
What's this? MWP in New Zealand? It can't be. You learn something new every day.
Wait a minute. South America as well?
Et tu Africa?
China, Pakistan, and Japan too? You don't say.
See Dully. That's how it's supposed to work. You actually support your claims with evidence. You wouldn't know anything about that though because you never do it.
a) You claim the tree ring data was "inaccurate". Ok, then why is the tree ring data on the chart at all if it is inaccurate? You'll notice where it fit the cause it remained on the chart, where it did not fit the cause the decline was "hidden".
Here is how the trees were "cherry-picked" if you are actually interested in the science:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/10/01/ross-mckitrick-defects-in-key-climate-data-are-uncovered.aspx
Look at the hockey stick. Tell me why it starts precisely at the end of the medieval warming period? I'll help you, because it makes the hockey stick look insignificant. There were significantly warmer periods 1,000 and 10,000 years ago when there was no fossil fuel burning.
Climate scientists have included tree ring data when it was accurate, and didn't include it when it wasn't accurate. No science supports including data that's known to be wrong! So no, with that first point, you aren't arguing science!
And you're quoting Ross McKitrick? He's as unreliable as Stephen McIntyre! McKitrick is an economist. He's not trained in Climate Science, nor is he skilled in the science, nor has he worked in the field. It's his hobby!
His work has NOT shown that the hockey stick is flawed. They found minor math errors, which have been corrected, none of which made any significant difference in the shape or trajectory of the hockey stick graph or in global warming predictions.
You don't know what you're talking about. You aren't arguing science in any way, shape or form! We've debunked these false talking points time after time after time. You don't want the facts - you want to be cozy in your denial.
But for anyone who does want info about tree rings, here's a real source.
Unfortunately for you, these climate scientists aren't trained in statistics, or else they wouldn't make such ridiculous errors in their models. And just because you repeat AGW talking points does not make them true Lenin.
M&M's are in contrast trained in statistics and their work did show that the hockey stick was flawed. Minor math errors? They proved that even when random data was input into the MBH models the result was almost always a hockey stick; they proved that tree-ring series were weighted too heavily in the MBH reconstructions (eventually leading to the NAS recommendation that bristlecone proxies not be used--BTW, they're still using them); and they proved that the "hottest year" and "hottest decade" conclusions were unfounded, one of the "headlines" of the MBH and IPCC.
They since have proven that "independent" reconstructions were not in fact independent (heavy proxy overlap), and, most importantly, they proved (and this is just solidified by the CRU scandal) that the scientists involved did not freely share data for replication and relied heavily on their relationships with each other for validation. In other words, they made a mockery of peer review. Kind of like you make a mockery of AGW.
I didn't come into this, and still am not in this, with any preconceived notions. I just don't have them on any topic!
You're a troll who's never posted a single valid thought.
As to the "substance" of your reply, if I were a religious man I would pray for your redemption, but I'm not, and I'm afraid you are a rather hopeless case anyway so I doubt that any amount of prayer would help you.
And for anyone else who might read this and my other responses to Delly, please note that she never once offers any specific evidence to back up her claims. She just simply repeats her vacuous nonsense and offers nothing to advance the argument.
I've called her out on it a number of times, yet, as would be expected of a marginally sane, fanatical AGW cultist, she continues to offer nothing. It's rather pathetic if you ask me and I am guessing that other pro-AGW folk on MMfA must cringe when they read her hollow and nasty posts. Cheers!
OK...I'll buy that for a dollar. What is Mr. Gore? A scientist? If you throw this line of reasoning out there, then why don't you apply the same logic to him?
It's not that mysterious. In medieval times, there were no accurate thermometers, and so no accurate temperature measurements. In reconstructing temperatures from those times, scientists today have to rely on indirect evidence such as tree rings. For the last 100-odd years, there HAVE been accurate thermometer readings, so it makes sense to use those instead of the less accurate tree ring data.
Now, it's a legitimate question as to how they calibrated tree ring data---what data did they use to compute how tree ring thickness corresponds to average temperatures. Another legitimate question is why the correspondence changed in recent years. What is not legitimate is to assume that any unanswered question about the science can only be interpreted as fraud on the part of the scientists. There is no reason to think that, other than anti-global warming politics.
What's bizarre is that you would think that me knowing facts is bizarre!
Wallace was born in Chicago, Illinois. He is the son of Mike Wallace, the longtime reporter for 60 Minutes on CBS, and Norma Kaplan. His parents divorced when he was one year old, and he grew up with his stepfather Bill Leonard, eventually CBS News President. He only developed a relationship with his biological father when he reached the age of 14. Leonard gave him early exposure to political journalism, hiring him as an assistant to Walter Cronkite at the 1964 Republican National Convention.
Despite Wallace's blood relationship with his father Mike, both men recognize that his stepfather, Bill Leonard, had far more of an impact on his life than his biological father. Chris Wallace first developed a relationship with his father in his teens, after his older brother Peter died climbing a mountain in Greece. After Leonard's death in 1994, the father and son moved even closer together. Mike Wallace remarks that they talk at least once a week.
i mean, with all the free time on your hands to cry & whine about "denier myths" vs "lefty green facts," i could see why you'd take the time to research what you'd no doubt consider "the enemy"
it certainly isnt convenient for you that Wallace reported accurately that "the hundreds of emails that were either leaked or hacked"
CRU (based conveniently at UEA, btw) claiming - "thousands of files and emails illegally obtained from a research server at the University of East Anglia (UEA)"
not that they were "stolen" or "hacked"... but only "illegally obtained"
could have been obtained by a fellow scientist at UEA that wanted to expose something (what or why, who knows), could have been some anonymous hacker as originally reported, simply trying to wreak havoc in the media. either way, illegally obtained. but in no way definitively "hacked"
Name one course of study he took that qualifies him as a climate expert.
This insane finger-pointing on both sides needs to end.
And the emails say what they say in plain English. All of the "out of context" spin won't change that.
Holdren was previously the Teresa and John Heinz Professor of Environmental Policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, director of the Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program at the School's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, and Director of the Woods Hole Research Center.
Holdren was born in Sewickley, Pennsylvania, and grew up in San Mateo, California. He trained in aeronautics, astronautics and plasma physics and earned a bachelor's degree from MIT in 1965 and a PhD from Stanford University in 1970. He taught at Harvard for 13 years and at the University of California, Berkeley for more than two decades. His work has focused on the causes and consequences of global environmental change, energy technologies and policies, ways to reduce the dangers from nuclear weapons and materials, and science and technology policy. He lives in Falmouth, Massachusetts with his wife, biologist Cheryl E. Holdren, with whom he has two children and five grandchildren.
Holdren was elected President of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) (2006-2007), and served as board Chairman (2007-2008). He was the founding chair of the advisory board for Innovations, a quarterly journal about entrepreneurial solutions to global challenges published by MIT Press, and has written and lectured extensively on the topic of climate change.
Holdren served as one of President Bill Clinton's science advisors from 1994 to 2001. Eight years later, President Barack Obama nominated Holdren for his current position as science advisor and Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy in December 2008, and he was confirmed on March 19, 2009 by a unanimous vote in the Senate.
You mean why should THIS guy get any credibility WRT climate science? This guy with degrees from MIT and Stanford? This guy who began working in the study of environmental sciences in 1972, right after he got his doctorate? Hmm, let me think about that for a while...yes, he should get lots of credibility. Holdren said, “One might wonder from the array of interests of mine that have just been mentioned, whether I simply have a short attention span, but I do like to think that there is some method in this madness. I think that many, if not most, of the great problems of the human predicament - population, resources, environment, prosperity, security - are not separate problems, but are intimately interconnected. And I believe if they're not all addressed and solved together, they won't be solved at all.”
He has also said "The extent of unfounded skepticism about the disruption of global climate by human-produced greenhouse gases is not just regrettable, it is dangerous. It has delayed - and continues to delay - the development of the political consensus that will be needed if society is to embrace remedies commensurate with the challenge," Holdren wrote in the New York Times. "The science of climate change is telling us that we need to get going. Those who still think this is all a mistake or a hoax need to think again."
The only "insane finger pointing" comes from your side, dum-dum. And if you don't know that context matters, you're an even bigger fool than any other foolish poster here!
Wow. Thanks for that info.
But here's a clue. When anyone here takes your advice on anything like this, we'll let you know.
Perhaps those agencies, combined with UNEP and the United Nations population agencies, might eventually be developed into a Planetary Regime-sort of an international superagency for population, resources, and environment. Such a comprehensive Planetary Regime could control the development, administration, conservation, and distribution of all natural resources, renewable or nonrenewable, at least insofar as international implications exist. Thus the Regime could have the power to control pollution not only in the atmosphere and oceans, but also in such freshwater bodies as rivers and lakes that cross international boundaries or that discharge into the oceans. The Regime might also be a logical central agency for regulating all international trade, perhaps including assistance from DCs to LDCs, and including all food on the international market. The Planetary Regime might be given responsibility for determining the optimum population for the world and for each region and for arbitrating various countries' shares within their regional limits. Control of population size might remain the responsibility of each government, but the Regime would have some power to enforce the agreed limits.
You're right on track Johnny. Here are a few more for your enjoyment:
The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births.
The law regulates other highly personal matters. For example, no one may lawfully have more than one spouse at a time. Why should the law not be able to prevent a person from having more than two children?
Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.
One way to carry out this disapproval might be to insist that all illegitimate babies be put up for adoption-especially those born to minors, who generally are not capable of caring properly for a child alone. If a single mother really wished to keep her baby, she might be obliged to go through adoption proceedings and demonstrate her ability to support and care for it. Adoption proceedings probably should remain more difficult for single people than for married couples, in recognition of the relative difficulty of raising children alone. It would even be possible to require pregnant single women to marry or have abortions, perhaps as an alternative to placement for adoption, depending on the society.
No, he's not whacked. I know, those were just "thought experiments" though. That's not how he really feels. Just harmless brainstorming. Now I am beginning to see why you are so enamored by him. You're both certifiable.
May I ask where you procured this data.
BTW actual links are a help for people who like to read the source literature. It helps explain the actual meaning of a post. Posting quotes out of context doesn't do that.
Like the old saying, any smear in a storm.
Here though is a site that actually claims to have scanned some of the quotes directly from the book including some of those I used. I have heard the "thought experiment" defense used to knock down any ideas of his radical nature, but come on, the dude's loopy. I didn't know this until you asked me to go find you a link (I had those quotes in an essay I had written earlier this year), but he apparently holds Harrison Brown in high regard. Yikes!
Well, that's the best I can do for you. If you want to read the full 1000+ pages, maybe you can ask Santa for it (if you haven't been naughty that is).
"In fact, Holdren's views closely follow the genocidal doctrines of Lord Bertrand Russell, founder of the Pugwash Conferences, and his fellow Fabian fascist H.G. Wells. In fact, Holdren chaired the Pugwash Conferences' executive committee from 1987 to 1997, helping the British organize the post-Cold War world as an imperial dystopia."
And the layers of psychopathology demonstrated by Malkin's acolytes are impressive. From the comments to her article:
“Wackjob” is too complimentary a label for this sad, dangerous, evil – yes, evil, arrogant, opposite-worldview holder."
"I suggest we decrease the population by one. I would like to have John Holdren demonstrate the sport of sky diving without assistance of a landing device. No parachute."
"Is swine flu going to be the mechanism for imposing a police state? A little over the top would you say? Forced vaccines or else? I would say we are toeing the edge of the cliff here."
"Next week, Van Jones will read the Top 10 List of “Locations for Caucasian Concentration Camps.”
"How about asking about the REAL purpose behind the Global Warming SCAM?"
Certainly no hate, paranoia, or misrepresentation here. As for me, if I really want a representative sample of Holdren's views I'll take a look at the numerous articles he has written in peer reviewed scientific journals. On the other hand perhaps you could suggest a few 'qualified' nominees for your administration, if you were to be elected president. Or perhaps you could critique his contribution to The Economics of Reprocessing Vs. Direct Disposal of Spent Nuclear Fuel. Now here is a chance to use your scientific acumen to demonstrate your superior grasp of scientific principles and Holdren's presumed unsuitablilty to hold office. Science? Hmm should I go with Holdren, Michelle Malkin, Lyndon LaRouche, or an anonymous poster? Tough question. I guess I'll just have to muddle through the problem myself. Just an observation--I've noticed of late that you never stick around to engage in active exhange with anyone. You wait 8-12 hours till after a discussion has died down and return to spray the equivalent of pseudo-scientific graffiti (thinned with copious insolence) all over a thread. Great way to enhance you credibility.
CRU (based conveniently at UEA, btw) claiming - "thousands of files and emails illegally obtained from a research server at the University of East Anglia (UEA)" certainly backs EXACTLY what Wallace reported. your attempt at 'correcting' Wallace are both unnecessary and ignorant.
CRU does not contradict Wallace by claiming that the emails were "stolen" versus "leaked"... but only "illegally obtained"
could have been obtained (AND THEREFORE LEAKED) by a fellow scientist at UEA that wanted to expose something (what or why, who knows), could have been some anonymous hacker as originally reported, simply trying to wreak havoc in the media. either way, illegally obtained. but in no way definitively "STOLEN"
if you want to search for someones bias try watching Keith Olbermann. you know, the "man" who shows swastikas & anti-socialism signs at tea party rallies and therefore claims that the tea partiers are violent, despite the lack of violence... then shows absolutely none of the PRO-socialist and hammer & sickle violent protests at Copenhagen in favor of global warming regulations.
Reminds me of a favorite old M*A*S*H episode. Henry: "...someone's been rat-finking to the general..."
Frank: "It wasn't me! Besides, it was my duty..."
Subject to a freedom of information request and about to be criminally destroyed, they were rescued.
And even though they were subject to FOIA requests, that doesn't change the fact that they were stolen by hackers.
If you will recall, OJ Simpson was simply trying to get his own stuff back, yet he was charged and convicted, because what he did was a criminal act. Hacking into the email server was a crime, no matter how honorable the motives were - and, BTW, we don't agree that the motives were pure in any way, but it doesn't MATTER!
As for your infatuation with hacked vs. stolen, didn't you see what your boyfriend had to say about that? He said he wasn't concerned with that. I hope that doesn't cause a rift between you two, it being the holidays and all. Cheers!
As I said, there is no evidence whatsoever that any documents were about to be criminally destroyed. It was anger and frustration without any real intent behind it, and there's no evidence whatsoever that any data was ever destroyed.
There was no conspiracy either.
For those of you who didn't follow my links (look above if you want to see them in full for yourself), here are the quotes Dully was trying to get you not to read. They are all from Phil Jones:
The two MMs [McIntyre & McKitrick] have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone.
Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment - minor family crisis. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don't have his new email address. We will be getting Caspar to do likewise. I see that CA [McIntyre's blog ClimateAudit] claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!! [Notice the subject title is IPCC & FOI, and look, his exclamation point sticks too]
If he [McIntyre] pays 10 pounds (which he hasn't yet) I am supposed to go through my emails and he can get anything I've written about him. About 2 months ago I deleted loads of emails, so have very little - if anything at all.
Nothing to see here of course. Don't believe your lying eyes. As an aside, for someone who has been "thoroughly discredited," Jones sure does seem to worry a lot about McIntyre's work, as can again be seen most recently here.
Stop pretending that you're simply being open to all ideas. We scoff at fools like that.
And the science has been replicated by others. And we don't believe you when you say that you're a really progressive scientist. You have to earn credibility here, not claim it. And the person who stole the Pentago Papers was indicted for that theft! Had it not been for an incredible amount of prosecutorial misconduct, he almost certainly would have been convicted! You're 0 for 4 here.
In your case, you won't give in on anything. Phil Jones outright says he deleted "loads of emails" but to you there is no obstruction, "nothing to see here." Jones claimed he didn't remember the context of "hide the decline" and you parrot him. I could give you dozens of examples of your absolute stubbornness to admit any chinks in the AGW armor. You are about as extreme of a religious fundamentalist as I've ever encountered. You even wished for my death once (don't bother with your tired didn't say it/hyperbole baloney). Here's a hilarious example of your extreme nature: you once couldn't even admit that you intentionally used three exclamation points in a row, instead laughably claiming that sometimes your keys got stuck! Earn credibility? If you can't even admit to something as inane as that, how can you expect anyone to afford you any?
You distort and take out of context what Phil Jones said, for example. The known facts are that he didn't know exactly what was meant by that comment UNTIL he had read the full email. Now he knows EXACTLY what he meant, but you fail to mention that, and only dishonestly reference an earlier comment that's completely understandable!
What a jackass you are. And no, I never wished for your death, but I might be persuaded to reconsider that! And yeah, my exclamation point and the o key and the ampersand key get stuck on this old laptop I've been using since I am recuperating in bed most of the time. The facts here have always, without exception, been on my side of the argument, and have never, ever been on your side. That frustrates you, I expect, but, too bad, so sad.
On a side note, for the sake of your health let go of some of the anger you harbor. I understand your resentment of me (to a point), but the fact that you angrily attack just about anybody who disagrees with you (even people who are pro-AGW) tells me that you are a bitter person. The stress of that inner anger and resentment cannot be good for you. Let it go some. I actually mean it when I say I hope you get well soon. Now you can go ahead and call me a concern troll or something.
There's a problem with that. CRU officials made an assertion. It is a "fact" that they made this assertion, but that doesn't necessarily make the contents of their assertion true, or "factual".
Either way, I could argue that CRU officials were, in fact, telling the truth AND that there was also nothing wrong (nonfactual) about Wallace saying "or leaked". The reason is that the two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. You could also make the BOTH cases (stolen and/or leaked) without even knowing the identity of the person(s) responsible.
Here's why:
Even if this was an inside job (a distinct possibility, and nobody knows for sure at this point), the emails were still nonetheless "stolen" (obtained through a criminal breach of [the] security systems, by someone who was not authorized to remove/republish, etc.,).
Likewise, the "leaked" part is already factual/true on its face, in that it was, regardless of who was responsible, or how the information was obtained, told, whispered, or otherwise transmitted anonymously. That's a "leak" no matter how you slice it.
That's why Wallace can not rightly be accused of suggesting that the emails were "stolen" by virtue of him saying that they were leaked. They were leaked. And stolen. Not either or. Both.
They weren't leaked. They were stolen.
Did a bunch of sockpuppet trolls get banned, and so we're suddenly stuck with all the of the stupidest trolls in existence?
It was a hack into their backup mail server. If it wasn't, the cops would have found that out pretty quickly - there are ways to figure out if data or emails have been hacked, and ways to determine where those hackers were located.
This is not rocket science, nor am I an insider. Just a lot smarter and better informed than you are, dum-dum.
Alexandra Fenwick, from the Columbia Journalism Review, once put out a great article on this matter in response to the ACORN video releases by the people at BigGovernment.com.
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/acorns_family_tree.php
Briefly, in this article, Fenwick points out the similarity between the ACORN video-sting and the sound-bytes that were used to slander Judge Sotomayor during her nomination. This similarity lies in the use of unvetted footage provided by unqulified and politically-motivated sources, to provide damaging fodder for political smear campaigns.
Fenwick shows how sound-bytes, stripped of context and charged with unsubstantiated claims, can be used as a tool for political activism, thinly disguised as journalism.
The "climategate" controversy is a perfect illustration. Politically-interested amatures tease out seemingly "damaging" revelations from emails that discuss matters which said amatures know very little about, and which are phrased in a language that it alien to them.
Not understanding the lingo, techniques, data or concepts which climate scientists use, it's easy to parlay their statements into something completely different from their actual meanings. This is especially true if one is working under the assumption that such accredited professionals communicate concepts to each other with the same language that talking-head commentators use to address their audiences.
This propensity to misinterpret is nothing new, and I think the 2012 hysteria, or even Y2K, are representative of the same line of poorly-reasoned thinking. The sad part is, since the matter is so politically charged, the science will be lost in the politics. People who believe in the "climategate conspiracy" really had believed in that idea well beforehand. They didnt need these misinterpreted emails to make the case for them. They would have been happy to believe the idea even if PT Barnum gave them the same story from a chrystal ball.
Personally, I think those who dont beleive the data ought to move to the Maldives or the Seychelles. Outside of being extremely beautiful, these areas are also completely vulnerable to rising water levels. If Wallace had to broadcast from there for a year or two, I'm sure his politically-motivated skepticism would quickly taper-off. Hell, I'd be willing to buy him a ticket and set him up with a place to stay!
I don't mean this as a jab, but I'd suggest instead of ignoring people's content to point out minor spelling errors, you quit swallowing all the BS you're being fed and try to do some critical thinking.
The vast majority of AGW-fraud deniers here instead buy the MMfA/RealClimate spin without debate. It's like the largest flock of sheep I have ever seen, and I've been to New Zealand.
If the sheep mentality wasn't the case, you would actually see more people conceding the "hide the decline" canard and acknowledging that the CRU scandal has damaged the AGW theory. The fact that most folks toe the AGW company line instead speaks to the level of critical thinking going on here. Thanks for the laugh though.
Keep up the good work G! It is fun watching the warmers trying to bail the Titanic!
Since the American Public has the attention span and memory of a gnat, the sound bites will win.
Neo = New
Con = Swindler
Thank you for pointing out that Neo-con is a perfect descriptor of the new breed of AGW con artists. I'll have to add that to my repertoire.
Oh, thanks for proving that you consider all Scientists 'mad scientists'.
And I'm not really sure how you arrived at your conclusion that I somehow proved to you that I consider all scientists "mad scientists," but apparently you have your reasons for making that ridiculous claim. Strange nonetheless.
But isnt it ironic that a demographic which routinely dismisses the theory of evolution now finds itself in the position of "playing scientist", by pretending to understand the select bits of converstation teased out from the hacked emails? They openly reject science, and then act as if they are qualified to discuss its findings (despite their having no knowledge of its methodology.)
And isnt it interesting that, despite their dismissal of solid science, they use things like the internet and twitter as their primary means of communication (e.g., the Tea-baggers)? I'd have more respect for them if they actually stood by their proclamations and avoided the fruits of the very scientific pursuits which they seem so hostile towards. But like most "values" on the right, it's all a matter of convenience. (e.g., They can claim they want "the government out" of private life, but then they want to criminalize gay marriage, and forbid a woman her right to choose... so much for small government.)
Why is it assumed that the e-mails were stolen and not the work of a whistleblower? It wouldn't bother me if they were hacked though. It would be harder for the climate alarmists if it was the work of a whistleblower though which is why sites like this one always focus on words like 'stolen' and 'hacked'. As if the people who exposed this deceit were the villains. Puh-leeeeeze! The guys or gals who exposed this deserve a freakin' medal. If you read through the e-mail chain it has look of a document being readied for a Freedom of Information release. Most of the non-relevant personal e-mails had been deleted. Why would a hacker go through that kind of trouble? Either way, it's all funny as hell to me. I am experiencing schadenfreude like you wouldn't believe.
Also, did any of you doubleplusgood proles read that a bloc of 135 developing nations would be boycotting the summit? It looks like all the penalties that developing countries would have to pay the U.N. weren't quite as much as the poorer countries would have liked. Guess which countries stood to benefit from higher monetary penalties. Much of the loot taken from developed nations would end up in the hands of poorer governments by way of the U.N. The 135 less developed nations want the monetary penalties for non-compliance to be higher of course. This whole thing is blowing up in the faces of the central planners. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
MMFA is just silly.
Now, the people who stole the emails by hacking into the server? They're involved in deceit and are criminals. The people who distort what was in the emails? Also guilty of deceit, obvious lies and distortions. Corruption of the peer review process? Again, people on the right who had some non-credible papers published, which is one of the things that the climate scientists railed against in those emails.
It's all on your side, Ed. Once again, the facts have a liberal bias.
How do you know what their political affilliation is? Do you even know who wrote these papers you refer to? Or what they wrote that the alarmists (Jones, et al) took issue with?
When you claim to have facts on your side, make sure you do.
Here's a link to one of the emails that talks about that group from the right who didn't do an appropriate job of peer-reviewing a submission because of their personal biases against manmade global warming.
And here's what another article said - that one of the authors became associated with multiple energy businesses, just the folks that rightwingers love to support.
After publishing their heavily criticized article on global warming, Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas quickly cultivate relationships with at least nine organizations whose climate change work is underwritten by ExxonMobil. Among her other affiliations, Baliunas becomes a board member and senior scientist at the Marshall Institute, a scientific adviser to the Annapolis Center for Science-Based Public Policy, an advisory board member of the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow, and a contributing scientist to the online forum Tech Central Station. Soon will be the chief scientific researcher for the Center for Science and Public Policy, a senior scientist at the George C. Marshall Institute, as well as a contributor to the Heartland Institute.
Or as MMFA said, "The Senate hearing also focused new scrutiny on Dr. Soon and Dr. Baliunas's and ties to advocacy groups. The scientists also receive income as senior scientists for the George C. Marshall Institute, a Washington group that has long fought limits on gas emissions. The study in Climate Research was in part underwritten by $53,000 from the American Petroleum Institute, the voice of the oil industry."
Did you think that we wouldn't notice this huge hole in your argument?
And I didn't even mention all of the companies lining up at the trough to get subsidies and mandates from their favorite politicians . The parent company of MSNBC, G.E., comes to mind. But I guess economic fascism is o.k. so long as the companies in question are towing the left's social agenda.
Would you be willing to apply your analysis to other policy decisons, or other institutions? For example, what about the money-trail surrounding the invasion of Iraq? What about the money-trail behind the out-sourcing of military work to private companies? What about the money-trial behind the Tea Party movement? Have you ever bothered to find out who's bankrolling their hyperbole? What about the money trail behind the anti-Healthcare reform movement? Who bank-rolls the Ayn Rand Institute? And again, even as you asked "who benefits from climate change?", ask yourself "who benefits from halting eco-friendly innovations." Believe me, you'll be surprised at what you find (or maybe you wont...)
Look, you dont have to believe in Climate Change. But dont pretend you have it all figured out. Just because FoxNews has (yet again) provided you with very questionable and oversimplified material geared towards flattering your political vanity, does not mean that the question is settled.
I mean, do you honestly think you would understand even a casual conversation (let alone a dubious selection of hacked emails) that occurs between experts in any field, without knowing any of their terms of reference or their general shop-talk? Do you think that the obviously partisan propagandists on FoxNews would?
If you heard electricians talking about "male" & "female" components (without knowing what these meant), you could easily misinterpret what these experts were saying.
Puh-leeze! Have some humilty with respect to the limits of your own experience, and to the barriers which your own political bias fortifies. YOu cant google the answer to everything. There are some matters that still require a qualified background to address.
BTW, I think $53,000 accounted for about 5% of that paper's funding. I wonder how much of the CRU's funding comes from big oil (BTW, their use of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers reference to describe AGW cultists was a proud moment for me since I first made the reference myself both on MMfA and WUWT).
I would give you the link to Mick Kelly's CRU page but apparently their site is down for the count at the moment (their new era of transparency perhaps?), but his bio there, at least as of last week, stated that his work has been funded in part by BP and Shell. I wonder if it was more than 5%.
BTW, the layers of irony in the Denier Cultists making 1984 references is LOL funny.
Those "real" news outlets keep referring to the e-mails as "leaked" because they were. They were leaked to a BBC reporter a full month (12 October) before they were posted on the web. Had the reporter had any brass, the BBC would have had quite a story.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231763/BBC-weatherman-ignored-leaked-climate-row-emails.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2009/11/climategate-cru-hacked-into-an.shtml
BTW, this is from your second link, my bold might help you;
Your erudition and ability to cut to the center of an issue are a constant source of awe.
The point (that's the sharp end of the pencil, Col.) is that they were leaked to the reporter long before they were made public on the 'net. For whatever reason (cowardice comes to mind) Hudson chose not to report them and they were released via a web site. The attempt to 'leak' them having failed, the 'leakers' dropped them publicly. That Mr. Hudson calls them 'hacked' is about as credible as, well, AGW.
That doesn't make them "leaked". They remain "hacked".
BTW, this is from the November 28th UK Daily Mail, edrosselwhine's first link ( the one that didn't clearly say they were hacked);
That's only two weeks ago, when most anybody credible or sane had figured out the emails weren't the indictment of GW science that the right wing media was trying to say they were. Denier Cultists have to really want to believe.
That's why Jones is suspended and Mann is under investigation - 'cause all the sane people have figured out that liars in white lab coats are still liars.
Strike one, for "suspended".
By whom is Mann "under investigation"?
You really need to get some new sources.
Did you even read your second link? It states that Man's work has been reviewed and found sound, and the latest batch of hacked emails is being reviewed as well.
Do you understand that there was a large scale propaganda campaign built on cherry-picking and misinterpreting those stolen emails? Do you think an institution would just sit back and ignore this, without looking into it?
You cult members need to take a deep breath, sit back, and try to engage your brains. Everything you post here is about as solid as your "feelings" about "arm-twisting", or your creepy excitement about Al Gore misrepresenting another person's statement.
I'll retract the "new sources" suggestion. Some of you apparently can find decent sources, you're just too blinded by your leaders to understand what you're reading.
I think you should know by now that I read what I reference, so yeah, I read all two paragraphs of the Penn State statement. The link was a response to your hinting that there was no investigation taking place.
As for engaging my brain and "critical thinking," I am guessing since you swallowed the Penn State PR in relation to the NAS/NRC report (what would you expect Penn State to say?), you see no irony in stating that "Mann's work has been reviewed and found sound."
I think you are probably aware of the Wegman report (Wegman is the NAS chair of the Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics) that followed the NRC report. Remember their conclusions about Mann's hockey stick by chance, Mr. Critical Thinker? Here, I'll refresh your memory about their findings (in full minus reference numbers so you can't claim cherry-picking, though I did add emphasis):
MBH98 and MBH99 were found to be "somewhat obscure and incomplete" and the criticisms by McIntyre and McKitrick were found to be "valid and compelling."
The report claimed that the MBH method creates a hockey-stick shape even when supplied with random input data, and argues that the MBH method uses weather station data from 1902 to 1995 as a basis for calibrating other input data. "It is not clear that Dr. Mann and his associates even realized that their methodology was faulty at the time of writing the MBH paper. The net effect of the decentering is to preferentially choose the so-called hockey stick shapes."
The report found that MBH method creates a PC1 statistic dominated by bristlecone and foxtail pine tree ring series (closely related species). However there is evidence in the literature, that the use of the bristlecone pine series as a temperature proxy may not be valid (suppressing "warm period" in the hockey stick handle); and that bristlecones do exhibit CO2-fertilized growth over the last 150 years (enhancing warming in the hockey stick blade). [NAS has changed their tree-ring proxy recommendations due to M&M's work]
It is noted that there is no evidence that Mann or any of the other authors in paleoclimatology studies have had significant interactions with mainstream statisticians.
A social network of authorships in temperature reconstruction is described of at least 43 authors with direct ties to Mann by virtue of having coauthored papers with him. The findings from this analysis suggest that authors in the area of paleoclimate studies are closely connected and thus ‘independent studies’ may not be as independent as they might appear on the surface. Dr. Wegman stated this was a "hypothesis", and "should be taken with a grain of salt." [In light of the CRU scandal, there's more than a grain of salt there]
Many of the same proxies are reused in most of the "independent studies" so these "cannot really claim to be independent verifications."
It is important to note the isolation of the paleoclimate community; even though its members rely heavily on statistical methods they do not seem to interact with the statistical community. Additionally, the Wegman team judged that the sharing of research materials, data, and results was done haphazardly and begrudgingly. [Understatement of the year]
Overall, the committee believes that Mann’s assessments, that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade of the millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year of the millennium, cannot be supported by his analysis.
For the sake of fairness, here are the criticisms of the Wegman report raised at the same Wiki source I provided:
The report was not subject to formal peer review. At the hearing, Wegman listed 6 people that participated in his own informal peer review process via email after the report was finalized and said they had no objection to the subcommittee submitting it.
Dr. Thomas Crowley, Professor of Earth Science System, Duke University, testified at the committee hearing, "The conclusions and recommendations of the Wegman Report have some serious flaws."[Please go ahead and read Crowley's testimony to see what the "serious flaws" were--funny Wiki didn't elaborate on that any]
The result of fixing some of the alleged errors in the overall reconstruction does not change the general shape of the most recent part of the reconstruction. [I wonder why that is--cue "Mike's Nature trick"]
Similarly, studies that use completely different methodologies also yield very similar reconstructions [yes, very similar, separated at birth in fact]
The social network analysis is not based on meaningful criteria, does not prove a conflict of interest and did not apply at the time of the 1998 and 1999 publications. Such a network of co-authorship is not unusual in narrowly defined areas of science. During the hearing, Wegman defined the social network as peer reviewers that had "actively collaborated with him in writing research papers" and answered that none of his peer reviewers had.
Gerald North, chairman of the National Research Council panel that studied the hockey-stick issue and produced the report Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years, stated the politicians at the hearing at which the Wegman report was presented "were twisting the scientific information for their own propaganda purposes. The hearing was not an information gathering operation, but rather a spin machine." In testimony when asked if he disputed the methodology conclusions of Wegman's report, he stated that "No, we don’t. We don’t disagree with their criticism. In fact, pretty much the same thing is said in our report. But again, just because the claims are made, doesn’t mean they are false."
Mann has himself said that the report "uncritically parrots claims by two Canadians (an economist and a mineral-exploration consultant) that have already been refuted by several papers in the peer-reviewed literature inexplicably neglected by Barton's 'panel'. These claims were specifically dismissed by the National Academy in their report just weeks ago."
So, are you sticking with your "found sound" stance, my critically-thinking friend? Time to go engage your brain and maybe stop defending the Mann hockey sticks, and most especially the MBH98/99 versions discussed here. They are laughable today, especially in light of the CRU scandal.
Kernel Chicken Dipper is sticking with his Cardinal Albert Arnold Gore on the 5year ice cap lie, so I'm going with yes, he's sticking with the "found sound" talking point.
2. The emails may have been stolen. Therefore it's wrong to use them to stop the UN from spending hundreds of billions of dollars in 3rd world countries. The fact that many hundreds of millions of dollars was spent as a result of fraudulent data (money essentially stolen by the supposed scientists) is not a factor.
3. It's not just the emails that make the data suspect. The documents uncovered, which include source code of the so called proof of man caused global warming, show incompetence at best and outright fraud for monetary and political gain at worst. If this turns out to be true, the UN needs to be shut down.
That's why scientists don't use that proxy - because the data is unreliable!
The divergence since 1960 is that the data goes up for temps, but down for tree rings. In the other instances, there are greater swings but the same directions. On top of that, there are more than 3 or 4 different ways to examine temperature, and tree rings are often localized with local climate fluctuations.
You got nothing.
Now you're saying that "the tree ring data does match up with recorded temps?" Time to put the laptop down Dully. What happened to the "divergence problem" that you claim justified hiding the decline in your sentences that followed? To say you are a bit confused is a bit of an understatement.
And they match up? Really? Did you bother to look at the CRU statement graphs before typing your drivel? There are considerable divergences throughout, some comparable to the "decline" post 1960 that goes in the "same directions" (coincidentally the CRU's second chart stops at 1960, so even in their chart where they intended to "shed light" on the matter they chose to "hide the decline"--it keeps going down all the way to -0.4 degrees before up-ticking to -0.35 degrees or so in 2000).
And do you realize that the other reconstructions use Briffa's proxies (Briffa is among the "et al." in Jones et al. (1998) "dum-dum")? Imagine the divergence if Briffa's tree rings were not included?
As for the "perfect match" I'm surprised they aren't more in alignment with each other considering the great overlap in proxies used and the emphasis given to tree rings in all of them.
Finally, I address your "localized" ramblings above in my MWP response. Who exactly has nothing? Cheers!
You say "before that the data was accurate" to cover for the trick used to either "hide the decline" or just truncate the tree-ring proxies. My rebuttal in regards to the decline to SLRTX can be found here (and before that here). I was subsequently largely vindicated by Stephen McIntyre here and by the graphs released by the CRU themselves in their 11/24 statement.
Please show us where the decline is "hidden in plain sight" as your friend Schmitty over at RealClimate described it and was again parroted by MMfA in this story. While you're at it, please point out to all of us the Medieval Warm Period on the CRU/WMO graph. And actually, I just now noticed, take another look at the tree-ring reconstruction (green Briffa line in the same graphs) and tell us all why the large "divergence" problems seen when compared against the other proxy reconstructions were acceptable when they happened from 1600-1700, 1750-1780, and 1830-1880, but were not acceptable from 1960-2000.
Please convince me that I'm wrong in claiming that the MMfA/RealClimate/DullDully/EasyToRefuteWingnuts "hidden in plain sight" "trick of the trade" "everybody's doing it" spin is an absolute joke.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/12/cru-hack-more-context/
What is this 'mountain of evidence' always cited by the alarmists? The 'mountain of evidence' so often cited is descriptive of the effects of climate change - such as the population dynamics of a species - and gives no clue as to the causes of the change.
Since you guys didn't like the above e-mails, here are some more for your enjoyment.
Phil Jones (Head of CRU), July 5, 20005:
" The scientific community would come down on me in no uncertain terms (why? orthodoxy anyone?) if I said the world had cooled from 1998. Okay it has but it is only seven years of data and it isn't statistically significant."
Well, it has been another 4 1/2 years since and still no warming since 1998. I guess this isn't 'statistically significant' either, but my isn't it inconvenient. These are the same group of people who will attribute an especially dry season of a small corner of the globe to man-made global warming. The same people who tried to attribute the rise in frequency of hurricanes for a couple of year stretch to MMGW as well. If a ten year stretch of no warming isn't statistically significant to disprove MMGW then it isn't relevant to prove it either. You guys can't have it both ways.
Phil Jones, director of the CRU, writes to Michael Mann, about two academics who disagree with him:
" I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"
Professor Mann on an academic journal foolish enough to publish dissenting views form the orthodoxy:
" Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research communtiy to no longer submit to , or cite papers, in this journal."
Professor Jones reply:
" I will be e-mailing the journal to tell them I'm having no more to do with it until they rid themselves of this troublesome editor."
Troublesome to whom? The 'Settled Scientists' have refused to comply with FOI requsts by (illegally) deleting relevant documents.
Phil Jones to Micahel Mann on Feb. 3, 2005:
" The two MMs [ Mckittrick and McIntyre] have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear that there is a Freedom of Information Act now in th U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone." ( Michael Mann especially loathes the two MMs because they are primarily responsible for exposing and discrediting the sloppy methodology of his now infamous hockey stick graph.)
And indeed, the CRU subsequently announced that they had "inadvertently deleted" the requested data. (Yawn) Yeah, sure. These men in the e-mail thread ( most of the 'hockey team') aren't just a bunch of run-of-the-mill academics; they are the leaders in the infant science of climatolgy. They are all extremely powerful and can wreck budding careers( don't dare deviate form orthodoxy), help steer grant money (you think it will go to skeptics), and manipulate the peer-review process as seen in the e-mail chain. Lest we forget, Michael Mann's discredited hockey stick graph was peer-reviewed as well. It turns out the people doing the reviewing lacked the advanced statistical training to do it competently. It took outsiders who weren't climate scientists to expose the errors. What does this tell you?
It seems inconceivable to the chattering classes and commentariat that scientists have prejudices, too, and that the publication process (peer review) is not some Kitemark of quality but is vulnerable to being hijacked. All of which is clearly demonstrated by the Climategate files. Given the CRU e-mails, perhaps the peer-review process should be renamed the 'friend review process'. Is some of this even science at all? Much of it looks like bullying, deception, politics, and scientific fascism from my vantage point.
Cheers!
If you steal money from a Bank, or when Demos steal money from the tax payer, it spends just as well as money actually given to you.
I am sure that they had a crew writing false Emails, then making them handy to steal.
Albert Arnold "Al" Gore tells Inconvenient mis-truth
You warmers keep the vigil up with Cardinal Gore. Just don't burn any candles!
This doesn't mean this trend can't reverse, think of possible changes in ocean currents due to fresh water influx from melting glaciers.
What gets me, not that I really should be suprised, is all the anger I see in the posts on both sides. To me this just gets in the way of intelligent debate and does nothing to resolve any actual problems.
What everyone shouldn't forget.
Climate is a chaotic system made up of thousands of variables.
No matter which side you are on there is nothing that is definitive from either side.
If you want to have an intelligent debate that's great.
If not, then move on.
Most of the "anger" I see is from the denier cult. I don't consider stalking Al Gore for inaccurate sound bites or weird personal attacks on scientists as contributing to any debate.
Unfortunately, climate science seems to be one of those topics that tend to stir people up the most but; is also one that does not have a lot of definitive answers. A lot of the modeling is based on proxy data and can't be verified without the ole time machine. When they throw out tree ring proxy data, from nothern latitude trees, but; include tree ring data from other era's it just tends to cloud things up for those who are not climate scientists.
I could go on about all the other issues that keep being brought up but; why bother. A lot of people have made up their mimds, one way or the other. Sometimes the discussions that come out of this can be enlightening, entertainin, or just make your head hurt.
I know why you give him a pass, yet in this same forum a person on the right is NEVER given a pass for a mis-quote.
As for your before mentioned stalking quote...well, I'm just doing what the MSM, should have been doing with this clown years ago. The debate wouldn't be so contentious if they had done their jobs with Gore.
What does that say about the on-going argument?
I couldn't agree more with the rest of your post though. I will add that this isn't really about the science. It's cloaked in science but this is a political football no doubt about it. There is Two Billion (I've seen the estimate as high as 7 B) in funding and grants that are on the line for Global warming /Climate Science research. Those recipients will not go quietly into this night.
See here Your text to link here...
Here are some points to keep in mind in this debate. A consensus does not make science. Science is the questioning.... And many questions persist.
Here is what we need to keep in mind and question... Is warming happening? What are the causes? Is it a bad thing? and from there thousands of other questions are derived.
Keep in mind there are thousands of reputable science in both camps and the all the hypothesizes have yet to be vetted enough to become a theory.
Another note upon further investigation of the email coding it does seem that the emails where leaked the question now is who leaked them and why?
5337
You sure are. And as long as you treat WorldNutDaily (or Anthony Watts) as credible sources, you're not going to catch up.
Here's a good video from a series addressing most of the GW Denier propaganda. A great starting point for anybody else who's a little late to the conversation.
Crock of the Week
Unlike "manbearpig", I'm not too worried about climate change whatever the cause. We will overcome and adapt to any situation (waterworld). In the seventies the scientists were alarmed about global cooling. They actually proposed attempting to melt the ice caps to prevent this. Wow, how strange does that sound right now? Climate change is a big business. Whether its selling carbon offsets or sucking wealth out of the worlds governments, they want to get rich off of scaring the hell out of the gullible masses (The day after tomorrow). Well look back twenty years from now and think this is just as silly as the global coolists.(if we make it past 2012). Anyway warming isnt too bad but that next ice age will be a b@tch. Make sure your glacier insurance coverage is up to date.
Let the thumbs down tally be higher then the yearly temperature rise. lol