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Myths and falsehoods about the deficit

January 27, 2010 12:53 pm ET — 63 Comments

In recent months, media figures have advanced a litany of false and dubious claims regarding deficits and public debt. In addition to promoting the false narrative that portrays Republicans as responsible budget stewards and Democrats as fiscally reckless, these claims advance the argument that the administration should cut spending and focus on balancing the budget in the short term, a position rejected by numerous economists who advocate for continued stimulus spending.

Myth: Obama is to blame for the 2009 deficit

Myth: Health care reform is too expensive, given the deficit

Myth: Wars, tax cuts don't count toward current deficit and debt projections

Myth: Deficit reduction would help to create jobs

Myth: Obama is to blame for the 2009 deficit

In criticizing the deficit, media figures including Dick Morris, Eric Bolling, Karl Rove, and Glenn Beck have attributed the entire deficit for fiscal year 2009 to President Obama. In fact, only a small portion of the fiscal year 2009 deficit is due to Obama's policies; in January, before he took office or signed any legislation, the Congressional Budget Office projected that based on policies set under Bush and economic conditions at the time, the deficit for fiscal year 2009 would reach $1.2 trillion.

FACT: Majority of FY 2009 deficit attributed to Bush policies

$1.2 trillion of $1.4 trillion deficit was already projected before Bush left office. The CBO projected on January 7, 2009, that, including spending authorized under the Bush administration for the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) and government takeovers of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the deficit would total $1.2 trillion. According to the CBO, the actual FY 2009 deficit was $1.4 trillion.

NY Times: Obama policies are "responsible for only a sliver of the deficits." According to a budget analysis done by The New York Times, "Mr. Obama's main contribution to the deficit is his extension of several Bush policies, like the Iraq war and tax cuts for households making less than $250,000. Such policies -- together with the Wall Street bailout, which was signed by Mr. Bush and supported by Mr. Obama -- account for 20 percent" of the increase between the FY2008 and FY2009 budget deficit estimates. The New York Times analysis also stated that 70 percent of the increase is due to a combination of economic hardships, including "the fact that both the 2001 recession and the current one reduced tax revenue, required more spending on safety-net programs and changed economists' assumptions about how much in taxes the government would collect in future years" and "new legislation signed by Mr. Bush ... like his tax cuts and the Medicare prescription drug benefit."

Myth: Health care reform is too expensive, given the deficit

Media figures including Fox News' Stuart Varney, Bill Hemmer, and Charles Krauthammer and CBS News' Nancy Cordes have advanced the false claim that health care reform proposals that were passed by the House and Senate would exacerbate the deficit and debt. However, the most recent CBO analyses of the health care reform bills estimate that the legislation would actually reduce deficits by more than $100 billion through 2019 and would continue to reduce deficits in the subsequent decade.

FACT: CBO projected Senate, House health bills would reduce deficit

CBO: Senate health care reform bill yields "a net reduction in federal deficits of $132 billion" over 10 years. From the CBO's December 19, 2009, cost estimate of the Senate bill incorporating the manager's amendment:

CBO and JCT estimate that, on balance, the direct spending and revenue effects of enacting the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act incorporating the manager's amendment would yield a net reduction in federal deficits of $132 billion over the 2010-2019 period.

CBO expects bill to continue reducing deficit during decade after 2019. CBO also estimated on December 20, 2009, that the Senate bill will continue to reduce the deficit beyond the 10-year budget window that ends in 2019 "with a total effect during that decade that is in a broad range between one-quarter percent and one-half percent of GDP."

CBO also estimated the House health care reform bill will result in deficit reductions through 2019 and in the subsequent decade. From a November 6, 2009, CBO estimate:

According to CBO and JCT's assessment, enacting H.R. 3962 would result in a net reduction in federal budget deficits of $109 billion over the 2010-2019 period (see Table 1) [this estimate was later updated to $138 billion over the same period]. In the subsequent decade, the collective effect of its provisions would probably be slight reductions in federal budget deficits. Those estimates are all subject to substantial uncertainty.

Myth: Wars, tax cuts don't count toward current deficit and debt projections

In reporting on deficit concerns, media figures and outlets, including The Washington Times, have attacked Obama's fiscal record while ignoring the effect that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Bush tax cuts have had on the current fiscal environment.

FACT: Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush tax cuts contributed significantly to debt

CRS: "Congress has approved a total of about $944 billion" for operations "initiated since the 9/11 attacks" through the end the 2009 fiscal year. In a September 2009 report titled "The Cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Other Global War on Terror Operations Since 9/11," the Congressional Research Service (CRS) stated, "Congress has approved a total of about $944 billion for military operations, base security, reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans' health care for the three operations initiated since the 9/11 attacks." CRS added, "This $944 billion total covers all appropriations approved by Congress for FY2001 to meet war needs through FY2009," which ended September 30, 2009.

Krugman: tax cuts cost added "more than $2 trillion in debt"; Iraq war "has cost at least $700 billion." In an August 27, 2009, blog post, Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman stated, "There were two big-ticket Bush policies. One was the tax cuts, which cost around $1.8 trillion in revenue; add in interest costs, and we're presumably talking about more than $2 trillion in debt. The other was the Iraq War, which has cost at least $700 billion, and will cost more before we finally extract ourselves." Krugman continued:

Without these gratuitous drains on the budget, it seems fair to assert that we'd be coming into this economic crisis with a federal debt around 20 percent of GDP ($2.8 trillion) smaller than we are. And that, in turn, means that we'd be looking at projected net debt in 2019 of around 50 percent of GDP, not 70.

And that would definitely not be a scary number. Net federal debt was 49 percent of GDP in 1993, at the end of the Reagan-Bush years; Bill Clinton did move to reduce that number, and succeeded, but the nation wasn't facing imminent crisis.

Baker: Stock market, housing crashes, and wars "explain the vast majority of the deterioration in the budget situation in the last decade." Criticizing an NPR interview with David Walker, president of the Peter G. Peterson Institute, economist Dean Baker stated in a January 11 American Prospect blog post, "Walker explained the shift from the large surpluses at the end of the Clinton era to the deficits the country is now seeing without reference to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Iraq that have already added more than $1 trillion to the debt, the housing crash which has increased the debt by more than $1 trillion in 2009 alone, and the stock market crash which through [sic] the country into recession in 2001 and cost the country more than $500 billion in capital gains tax revenue." Baker added:

While these developments explain the vast majority of the deterioration in the budget situation in the last decade, they were not mentioned once by either Walker or the reporter conducting the interview. Instead, Walker blamed an irresponsible Congress that allowed the money to burn a hole in its pocket. Even if it does not fit reality, this story fits with Mr. Walker's political agenda of creating a special commission that will issue a proposal to cut the deficit that is fast-tracked so that it does not follow normal congressional procedures.

NY Times: 33 percent of "$2 trillion swing" from surplus to deficits attributed to Bush policies "like his tax cuts and the Medicare prescription drug benefit. A June 9, 2009, New York Times article reported that 33 percent of the "$2 trillion swing" from surpluses projected by the CBO in 2001 to deficits "stems from" legislation signed by Bush. The Times added: "That legislation, like his tax cuts and the Medicare prescription drug benefit, not only continue to cost the government but have also increased interest payments on the national debt."

CBPP: "the tax cuts enacted under President George W. Bush, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the economic downturn together explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years." In a December 16, 2009, analysis of federal deficits, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities stated, "Some critics charge that the new policies pursued by President Obama and the 111th Congress generated the huge federal budget deficits that the nation now faces. In fact, the tax cuts enacted under President George W. Bush, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the economic downturn together explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years." CBPP included the following chart illustrating various factors' relative effects on current and projected deficits:

deficits

Myth: Deficit reduction would help to create jobs

In attacking Obama over deficits and the unemployment rate, media conservative have argued -- in the words of Fox News contributor Stephen Moore -- that "getting people back to work should be priority number one," but "we've got to start worrying about the debt, about these huge deficits," adding that the current deficit and projected debt are "having a very negative effect on people's psychology about where this economy is headed" [Fox News' On the Record with Greta Van Susteren, 12/17/09] (from the Nexis database). Likewise, Rove stated that Obama "could have a real option to create jobs, and that would be to take tough actions that would actually stimulate small businesses and bigger enterprises to actually go out and create jobs," while citing deficits as a factor that signals bad news for "companies and their businesses and their chances to make a profit" [On the Record, 12/4/09] (from Nexis). Historical evidence undermines the suggestion that the administration should focus on deficit reduction in order to create jobs, and economists have said current deficits are helping the economy.

FACT: Past efforts to address deficits before full recovery cited for further economic decline; economists say deficits are helping

Prominent economists: Unemployment rate rose after FDR attempted to balance the budget during Great Depression. Responding to numerous conservative media figures, who criticized Obama's earlier proposals for large-scale stimulus spending by denouncing Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal policies as ineffective or damaging, several prominent economists argued that the unemployment rate rose in 1938 because Roosevelt did not go far enough in pursuing New Deal stimulus policies and because his attempts to balance the budget hindered recovery.

Krugman: "deficits are actually helping the economy." In an August 27, 2009, New York Times column, Krugman stated, "Right now deficits are actually helping the economy. In fact, deficits here and in other major economies saved the world from a much deeper slump. The longer-term outlook is worrying, but it's not catastrophic." He further stated:

Consider what would have happened if the U.S. government and its counterparts around the world had tried to balance their budgets as they did in the early 1930s. It's a scary thought. If governments had raised taxes or slashed spending in the face of the slump, if they had refused to rescue distressed financial institutions, we could all too easily have seen a full replay of the Great Depression.

As I said, deficits saved the world.

In fact, we would be better off if governments were willing to run even larger deficits over the next year or two.

Baker: "If the economy remains weak, the deficit will remain a serious burden no matter how much we raise taxes or cut spending." In a March 25, 2009, Huffington Post blog post, Baker stated:

There is no guarantee that President Obama's policies will be successful in restoring strong growth, but they are clearly a step in the right direction. If we have strong growth, then our deficits will be manageable. If the economy remains weak, the deficit will remain a serious burden no matter how much we raise taxes or cut spending.

Someone has to tell the deficit hawks that their blow-up doll is not real. The issue is the economy, not the deficit.

Economics professor DeLong: 1937-38 interruption in recovery attributed to decision to "try to move the budget toward balance." In a November 17, 2008, post on his personal blog, University of California-Berkeley economics professor Brad DeLong wrote, "Private investment recovered in a very healthy fashion as Roosevelt's New Deal policies took effect. The interruption of the Roosevelt Recovery in 1937-1938 is, I think, wel [sic] understood: Roosevelt's decision to adopt more 'orthodox' economic policies and try to move the budget toward balance and the Federal Reserve's decision to contract the money supply by raising bank reserve requirements provide ample explanation of that downturn."

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    • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 12:58 pm ET)
      3 16
      "FACT: CBO projected Senate, House health bills would reduce deficit"

      I love that, according to MMfA, CBO projections, that are as fluid as a rising sea, are a FACT. Lol
      Report Abuse
      • Author by alienofwar (January 27, 2010 1:48 pm ET)
        13 1
        Seriously, is that all you got in response to all this fact checking? You guys really have nothing on your side but lies and distortions. This is precisely why I rejected the modern Conservative movement.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 1:54 pm ET)
          4 14
          Me distorting? I would say those that constantly tout these CBO numbers as gospel are the distorters. Look, if you want to make the case for health care then do so without acting as if these CBO numbers are the end all and the final word. Because we all know they aren't. Nobody knows. So why not just say so instead of trying to sell it based on something that will change. It's disingenuous, and a distortion of reality.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by jarossiter (January 27, 2010 2:07 pm ET)
            10 1
            But then saying it is going to add to the deficit is also disingenous, isn't it?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 2:14 pm ET)
              2 11
              Any numbers and cost predictions far out in the future should not be used to sell or diss any reasonable proposal. There are way too many variables. They should be "sold" as only the best estimate we have at this moment, nothing more, certainly not a FACT, and other than that they are essentially worthless. The merits of the proposal of this magnitude and an honorable commitment to lay all the cards on the table, good and bad, is what I expect from those we elect. Not spin, or partisan rancour, but the truth.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by eb (January 27, 2010 3:18 pm ET)
                8 1
                The point is not that the CBO is the last word but that conservative media outlets want their listeners to believe that health care reform can only increase the deficit - almost by definition. They do not want well informed listeners but agry confused listeners who are vulnerable to manipulation by those who prefer business as usual.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 3:24 pm ET)
                  2 7
                  I am not defending misinformers on the conservative side who have their own agenda, I am saying that by calling those that question these CBO numbers, or don't use them as gospel in their analysis, as misinformers is just as ridiculous.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by At_odds (January 27, 2010 10:59 pm ET)
                    5 1
                    "'FACT: CBO projected Senate, House health bills would reduce deficit,'

                    I love that, according to MMfA, CBO projections, that are as fluid as a rising sea, are a FACT. Lol"

                    Your complaint accuses MMFA of calling CBO projections fact. Either you missed the point, or you deliberately ignored it.

                    It is a fact that the CBO gave us these projections (nobody said that it is a fact that these projections are be all, end all). If you read just three lines above your quote, you will find that the quote responded to the fact that some media figures...

                    "have advanced the false claim that health care reform proposals that were passed by the House and Senate would exacerbate the deficit and debt."
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (January 28, 2010 2:00 am ET)
                      5 1
                      RightON is legendary around here for cropping quotes and statements in order to distort the real picture that was painted by someone else.

                      So it's no surprise that it did it here.

                      Instead of pulling a nummber out of the air so that we can compare and contrast one plan versus another, we use the nonpartisan CBO. It's a prediction, not a guarantee, but he creates a strawman argument that some of us THINK it's some kind of a guarantee. We don't.

                      He's just a troll trying to derail the thread. See Obama's comments tonight about those on the right reducing serious debates to silly arguments.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by jose2 (January 29, 2010 4:03 pm ET)
                        1 3
                        It is silly to think that a government takeover of 1/6 of the economy is going to save money.


                        Report Abuse
          • Author by peace4all (January 27, 2010 2:13 pm ET)
            12  
            funny, i remember a couple months ago when the CBO was scoring the house bill the right could not shout the CBO findings that it would increase the deficit loud enough. now that it has data you don't like, well, "their unreliable"
            Report Abuse
          • Author by TheSarge (January 27, 2010 2:14 pm ET)
            10 1
            Typical disinformation tactic, Right morON: You don't like the CBO's number, so you flail around trying to attack the CBO. What's next? You're not a fan of long division and you want it banned from American schools? After all, only real americans use the NeoCon Approved Math*, right?


            *Coming soon to a Kansas Board Of Retarded Education near you.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 2:17 pm ET)
              2 12
              Attack? The left is so thin skinned that any criticism of any entity of government or at one of their leaders is labeled an attack. Stop whining about your mistreatment and defend what is being "attacked" then. Or can you?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by eb (January 27, 2010 3:10 pm ET)
                8 2
                Thick skinned??!!!!

                Do you mean we are a bit sensitive when attack media portray non-conservatives as fascists and stalinist who are a danger to the nation? Are we thick skinned when large corporate media outlets and three hour a day pundits make their media distorting agenda a vehicle for defining those who disagree with them and their policies? Why would anyone allow to be defined by those who are out to destroy them (based on their actions)? Do YOU like to be defined by those who are hostile to YOU?

                The point is not that the government is beyond reproach. That is your straw man. The point is that certain media outlets prove themselves to be systematically unreliable for obtaining information about decision making. Health care reform does not automatically (or by definition) create a larger deficit. Unfortunately those who rely on Fox and friends will not have any idea how that could be possible.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 3:15 pm ET)
                  2 8
                  Yes, Fox is unreliable. And nothing but a propaganda arm of the RNC. Who said otherwise? We were talking about the CBO, of which I did not attack. I merely stated reality and how futile these cost projections have proven to be in the past, so why should we expect them to be any different in the future.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by eb (January 27, 2010 3:25 pm ET)
                    9 1
                    NO you said the left is thinned skinned. You also said Fox is unreliable and a propaganda arm of the RNC! If this is the case, then challenging misinformation from them on places like this website are performing a valuable public service. No wonder we can't seem to get anything done in this country. Problem solving requires reliable information, not hysterical distortions and propaganda.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 3:35 pm ET)
                      3 7
                      The left is thinskinned and I never said challenging misinformation on this website is not valuable. I am saying future cost projections regarding government should not be disingenuously used as a club to beat down skeptics of those numbers.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by PatrickJ08 (January 27, 2010 3:44 pm ET)
                        5 2
                        If the right didn't make stuff up constantly, it would not be as irritating to correct them.

                        But they NEVER learn.
                        ANYTHING.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by dpjohan (January 27, 2010 7:22 pm ET)
                           
                        Where else would you suggest to get "true" numbers?
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by At_odds (January 27, 2010 11:18 pm ET)
                        4 1
                        How about when Fox news accused the Obama administration of declaring war on Fox (in response to a couple of small comments), and the fact that conservatives took that and ran with it.

                        When the left makes makes small truthful claims, we are making war, but when the right attacks the credibility of an organization that they once used (when the numbers were even less clear), we are thin skinned,for calling it an attack.

                        Conservatives are incapable of logic!
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by bewildered (January 28, 2010 8:12 am ET)
                        2 1
                        right ON,

                        I agree that criticism is acceptable and necessary. However, what statistics, numbers, or assessments should somebody utilize as a judgement tool when attempting to ascertain the validity of any piece of legislation??

                        The CBO is about as non-partisan as Congress is ever going to get. Unless you can provide a better valid source of information you nor I have nothing to base an opinion upon.

                        Or, put simply, we can continue to criticize everything and believe nothing is valid, thereby sticking with the status quo and getting nothing done in the process because to some people no analysis is reasonable. Real change will only come about if both sides have something they can agree upon instead of being overly critical of reasonable information.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by jose2 (January 29, 2010 4:09 pm ET)
                        1 3
                        Congress took health care expenditures and attached them as amendments to defense appropriations. That way they could blame Bush for the defense costs and get the CBO to lower the cost of the new health care bill.

                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by dpjohan (January 27, 2010 7:21 pm ET)
                       
                    Do you have any evidence of CBO futile cost projections?
                    Report Abuse
      • Author by Handsome Pete (January 27, 2010 3:56 pm ET)
        4 1
        The fact is that the non partisan office with no skin in the game did the analysis and came to taht conclusion. You don't have anybody's numbers who is not partisan that can be trusted better. If you don't get that, and you obviously don't, we can't help you.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (January 27, 2010 6:30 pm ET)
        4 2
        I hope everyone notices how few posts on this thread are actually about the myths and falsehoods that the rightwing has been pushing about the deficit, and how many are derailing posts from the two most egregious thread derailers.

        They keep pulling this, and people keep falling for it. Why?

        It's not about how thin-skinned liberals are, or about how the CBO projections don't always end up being the final cost. The article is about how many distortions of reality the right participates in, and how that poisons our national debate on the issues. Instead of talking about how damaging it is for us to be distracted by those things instead of tackling the real issues, most of the posts here are being distracted from the real issues and concentrating on their nonsense.

        MMFA tries to STOP the people who don't deserve credibility on these issues, and refutes those illegitimate news organizations that don't deserve extra attention, from getting that undeserved attention and credibility. And that same process should be followed by posters here - people not interested in discussing the topic here shouldn't get as much attention as you all give them.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 6:36 pm ET)
          2 6
          "They keep pulling this, and people keep falling for it. Why?"

          Because the other posters on this site just aren't as smart as you are Suzy.

          "And that same process should be followed by posters here - people not interested in discussing the topic here shouldn't get as much attention as you all give them"

          Because your stupid directives aren't worth anywhere near the attention from anyone else as you give them to yourself. When MMfA gives you the key then you can steer the discussion to your liking, but until that happens you will just have to live with people reading your admonitions and going "meh".
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (January 28, 2010 2:09 am ET)
            3 1
            Yes, clearly some of the other posters on this site AREN't as bright as I am.

            Or as bright as Obama is, or as bright as MMFA is. See, we all understand how toxic it is to allow your silly arguments to derail serious debates. Obama mentioned it prominently in his SOTU speech tonight. Valerie Jarrett and others mentioned it a few months ago when they refused to interact on a regular basis with FoxNews, because they aren't a legitimate news organization.

            I can't make other people act the way they should act around troll posts, but that doesn't mean I am going to stop pointing out your troll posts. I know that it frustrates you when I do point them out - too bad, so sad for you.

            And it's pretty clear that people are, more and more often, just ignoring troll posts. I understand it benefits YOU to pretend that my admonitions are impotent, but they aren't. I never claimed, nor expected, that everyone would agree with me or follow my lead, but many do, and I will continue to educate people on this topic.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (January 28, 2010 11:45 am ET)
        2 1
        The CBO gives us projections about what the status quo costs will be.

        Then they give us the projections of what the reform bills will cost.

        We then subtract one from the other to get the results that tell us that the reform bills will cost less.

        No one ever claimed that the CBO projections were written in stone final actual, set in stone costs. EVER.

        The CBO projected that the reform bills will reduce the deficit. Undeniably true. The projections ARE FACTS. They are also projections.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jose2 (January 29, 2010 4:24 pm ET)
          1 2
          The CBO scores the bills as they are presented. The two big ponzi scheme tactics are:

          1. Collect taxes for several years before paying out benefits; and

          2. Move a lot of the expense into amendments attached to defense appropriations which is scored separately.



          Report Abuse
      • Author by anthony.gaston6329 (January 28, 2010 3:36 pm ET)
           
        It is amazing that you conservatives are so intellectually bankrupt that now matter how many facts are in front of you,
        Report Abuse
    • Author by sleeve (January 27, 2010 2:03 pm ET)
      7 2
      hey morON...learn to read! the FACT is that CBO did make the projections cited.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by sleeve (January 27, 2010 2:08 pm ET)
      7 2
      the fact cited is what CBO projected. if you don't agree with the projection, provide some other facts. what a morON
      Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 2:45 pm ET)
        2 9
        Baloney. MMfA has been trotting out this horse since day one. See, the CBO says this and that is it, end of story. No more talk of deficits because the CBO says this and that is it. It's what most of their threads blast away at, those who don't set these projections in stone.

        To MMfA that is misinformation, to the rest of us it's reality based on history.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Handsome Pete (January 27, 2010 3:58 pm ET)
          4 1
          Whose numbers do you trust? Because I don't trust the righties saying it's going to add to the deficit without explaining how, and offering plans that do nothing to reduce the deficit.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by JoeSixpack (January 27, 2010 4:11 pm ET)
            1 1
            An honest question: what kind of track record does the CBO have regarding deficits? I'm thinking it's probably not good, but I haven't done the research. I know, I know - I should do it myself,, but if any of you guys could point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it. It certainly seems like a relevant consideration in any discussion that involves the CBO in any way. I don't trust the righties to be honest about this issue either. I'm just not sure that citing the CBO is a good way to support that stance.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (January 27, 2010 6:30 pm ET)
            2 4
            If government's projections on costs had an historically accurate legacy, then fine. Trust them, use them and if those with a political agenda fail to use them to make their case, then absolutely they should be called on it. But that isn't the case, and MMfA knows it. Yet they keep insisting that those who don't agree with the health care proposals use them anyway, and cry foul when they don't. It's a distortion. And the irony is it's what MMfA claims to try and correct. Agenda advocacy, pure and simple.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by At_odds (January 27, 2010 11:29 pm ET)
              5  
              Presenting both sides of an issue is biased? Conservatives used convoluted CBO numbers as evidence to their claim. Now, "calling them" on ignoring the same organization when their numbers are strongly against their side is agenda advocacy? Nice spin, but I think not.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by nullbull (January 28, 2010 7:01 pm ET)
                 
              Your options for projections are the government offices or the private sector. Do you want to talk about the private sector's ability to produce reliable information about economic forecasting? Perhaps some of those people who gave sub-prime CDOs AAA ratings are available.

              All of these projections are probabilistic, with the highest probability outcomes going into a summary, which some drooling idiot research assistant for the MSM "reads," then gives it to some talking haircut who says something like "The gubmint sez we's gonna be rich, y'all!" or "THE WORLD IS ENDING!!! BAAAAHHHH!, in other news, Jessica Simpson put on her SHOE! Here's the footage, repeated 38 times in slow motion with John Tesh playing in the background..."

              The weatherman doesn't have a great track record either, but he's rarely off by 20 degrees.

              We tolerate real information better coming from our weather reporters than we do from people covering government, the economy, etc.

              Hey, maybe if the weather reporters should put on a clinic for the news anchors... cross training.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by dpjohan (January 27, 2010 7:25 pm ET)
             
          Where do you think deficit spending numbers come from?
          Report Abuse
    • Author by smarshall1432997 (January 27, 2010 2:21 pm ET)
      6 1
      It is shameful to watch how these Republicans will "repeat" falsehoods of how Pres. Obama is to BLAME for America's deficit being $14 Trillion in just ONE year. Does MSM really believe that $14 Trillion can be spent in just ONE year? Hmmm. LOL.

      Anyways, Republicans do AGREE that Pres. Bush and Republicans went WILD with their SPENDING from 2001 to 2009. Then at their next critical point Republicans conveniently "SKIP" over the total of $14 Trillion and go to how Pres. Obama and Democrats have went WILD with their SPENDING too which pushed America's deficit to $14 Trillion. Wink, wink. Did you catch the "SKIP" move played by Republicans? So, why haven't MSM picked this up? Uh, oh. LOL.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by PatrickJ08 (January 27, 2010 3:45 pm ET)
        2  
        They've been doing it for more than a year now.

        And the media, even non-crackpot (non-fox) media doesn't help.
        They let republican liars repeat BS about the budget endlessly.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jose2 (January 29, 2010 4:25 pm ET)
             
          The proof of the BS is that we can all see the national debt going down and the debt ceiling lowered.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by ABBA|Proudly teaBAGGING Liberals (January 27, 2010 4:04 pm ET)
      2 6
      FACT: The house and senate were BOTH were dem majority starting in 2006, a super majority starting in 2008... Only the congress can spend money. All the president bush or obama can do is sign or veto..

      If the economic downturn started in 2007 shouldn't the congress voted in during 2006 have the responsibility?

      you fools certainly can't blame either president...

      NOW however one would think that a dem congree and a dem president should be able to do SOMETHING... Lets face it you all blamed Bush when he had a repub congress that actually did create jobs.... hmmm
      Report Abuse
      • Author by wookie (January 27, 2010 4:19 pm ET)
        6 2
        >>FACT: The house and senate were BOTH were dem majority starting in 2006, a super majority starting in 2008... Only the congress can spend money. All the president bush or obama can do is sign or veto..

        And the super expensive wars and tax cuts for the rich predate that.

        >>If the economic downturn started in 2007 shouldn't the congress voted in during 2006 have the responsibility?

        Only if you're an idiot who doesn't understand long term trends.

        >>Lets face it you all blamed Bush when he had a repub congress that actually did create jobs.... hmmm

        Only for soldiers and repo men.

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      • Author by jarossiter (January 27, 2010 4:27 pm ET)
           
        If the economic downturn started in 2007 shouldn't the congress voted in during 2006 have the responsibility?


        I blame the crooks on wall street, not congress.
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        • Author by dpjohan (January 27, 2010 7:29 pm ET)
             
          I blame the crooks in the WH...Congress and Wall Street. They have all hosed us. Then watch us argue about facts that don't mean anything.
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      • Author by jarossiter (January 27, 2010 4:33 pm ET)
        1  
        NOW however one would think that a dem congree and a dem president should be able to do SOMETHING... Lets face it you all blamed Bush when he had a repub congress that actually did create jobs.... hmmm

        How many of those jobs STILL exist?

        We are now a service sector economy which is even more vulnerable to bubbles than the manufacturing economy that no longer exists here.

        Who should we blame for that?
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        • Author by eweston8542983 (January 27, 2010 6:44 pm ET)
          2 1
          Though wages flatlined during the Shrub addministration, I don't recall any complaints about it.

          You source on job creation is?

          You believe McCain/Palin would be doing a better job? If so in what way?

          Manufacturing gave new meaning to the term Boom and Bust. Your reasonong that a service economy is more vunerable needs to be unpacked and examined.
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          • Author by jarossiter (January 27, 2010 8:25 pm ET)
            1 1
            Though wages flatlined during the Shrub addministration, I don't
            recall any complaints about it.

            Not true. There was plenty of complaint about it.

            "You source on job creation is?"

            I didn't speak about job creation, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

            "You believe McCain/Palin would be doing a better job? If so in
            what way?"

            Man, are you reading me wrong.

            "Manufacturing gave new meaning to the term Boom and Bust. Your reasonong that a service economy is more vunerable needs to be unpacked and examined."

            Look around you, that is all the evidence I need.. At least the Manufacturing jobs, for the most part, had Unions to cushion the blow. Try surviving a month unemployed from your job at Best Buy (I'm sure you would have made manager some day.)
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            • Author by eweston8542983 (January 27, 2010 9:40 pm ET)
              2  
              Who complained, an example or two please.

              "Lets face it you all blamed Bush when he had a repub congress that actually did create jobs...hmmm." Well there you have me pardon me for missreading you.

              So your not willing to put up any ideas or good people to do a better job than the Prez on the economy. I'm sure I've got that wrong somehow.

              Looking arround is ok but hard to come to grips with as an argueing position. Its metaphyisically absurd to believe I know what you see.

              The unions ability to protect its members varies greatly. The ait traffic controllers showed one end of the spectrum.

              There is an admiral or two who would go into shock at the thought of me in a management position. Does their continued health mean nothing to you...gads man.
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              • Author by At_odds (January 28, 2010 12:05 am ET)
                2  
                "Lets face it you all blamed Bush when he had a repub congress that actually did create jobs...hmmm."

                Jarossiter addressed this statement (asking how many of those jobs still exist?) as it appeared in the comment he originally replied to.

                "So your not willing to put up any ideas or good people to do a better job than the Prez on the economy. I'm sure I've got that wrong somehow."

                Not willing? I'm sure you got that wrong somehow.

                "Looking arround is ok but hard to come to grips with as an argueing position. Its metaphyisically absurd to believe I know what you see."

                Do you mean to say that you can't recall any complaints about this past decades terrible economy. OK, well a simple google search with the words "economy," "polls" and "bush" will lead you to a Fox News article, titled "04/20/06 FOX Poll: Gloomy Economic Views; Bush Approval at New Low. The first two body paragraphs read as follows:

                "Opinions are sharply divided on whether Rumsfeld should resign as secretary of defense. In addition, views on the economy are glum; most Americans rate the current economy negatively, and twice as many say it feels like the economy is getting worse rather than better. These are just some of the findings of the latest FOX News national poll.

                President Bush’s job approval rating slipped this week and stands at a new low of 33 percent approve, down from 36 percent two weeks ago and 39 percent in mid-March. A year ago this time, 47 percent approved and two years ago 50 percent approved (April 2004)."

                Well now you won't have to deal with that metaphysical issue you were having, although simply looking around the internet would have done you just fine.

                "The unions ability to protect its members varies greatly. The ait traffic controllers showed one end of the spectrum."

                Yes, still many unions do help.

                "There is an admiral or two who would go into shock at the thought of me in a management position. Does their continued health mean nothing to you...gads man."

                Ugh, Navy? Marines? Just kidding (Our Generals probably would've thought the same about me, once upon a time).
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                • Author by eweston8542983 (January 28, 2010 10:25 am ET)
                  1  
                  Here's an opinion of Shrubs job creation.

                  Generally if I have a complaint. I like to offer solutions and people. The debate wains without this.

                  Yep there were a few complaints. His popularity tanked in the end. The folks we watch here continued to support him. They have large voices in the public debate.

                  No argument about unions trying to help. They do fail sometimes, they still have my support.

                  The navy/marine relationship is long, and colorful. Each considers the other worthy opponets. I was in the subgroup of enlisted airdale, AW rate. The lowest of the low. ;o)
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                  • Author by jarossiter (January 28, 2010 11:00 am ET)
                      2
                    "Though wages flatlined during the Shrub administration, I don't recall any complaints about it. "

                    "Here's an opinion of Shrubs job creation."

                    These two statements of yours are at odds with each other. The complaints were not about job creation,but about the types of jobs and the fact that wages fell during his administration. Sure unemployment was at 4%, but they were service sector jobs; no health insurance, low wages.

                    I also believe you are attributing quotes to me that I did not make, so your responses are confusing me.
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                    • Author by eweston8542983 (January 28, 2010 6:32 pm ET)
                      2  
                      Nope, just one quote from you on the 9:40 post.

                      And I misspelled wane and got away with it.
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                      • Author by At_odds (January 29, 2010 2:13 am ET)
                        3  
                        Lol...good find! Anyway thanks for that link, although the methodology seemed a bit too simplistic I think it was somewhat telling.

                        I agree with offering solutions and people too. Obviously I would go with more liberal solutions than you. For instance, I think Obama is on the right track. Bank Bailouts kept the banks from going under, which kept them making loans to companies and individuals. This also helped stabilize the stock market with the help of new optimism over a "fresh new president," not more than three months after he took office. And most of that money was paid back. Its hard to say that he saved our economy or didn't but the downward momentum definitely subsided. Take our recent GDP growth. Some say that some of that GDP was paid for by our own tax money (through programs like Cash for clunkers), but motor vehicle spending increased only by 1.4% in Q3 in 2009. Exports and Personal Consumption had much bigger impacts on the increase. In Q4, GDP estimates are at over 5% growth.

                        Jobs have been a different story, but I think that private sector jobs will lag behind economic growth and sustainment. For now I think providing temporary, somewhat low paying public sector jobs might be a good idea. This could help build a greener more efficient infrastructure and benefit other public programs. I would also like regulations on banks and insurance companies to discourage unfair practices.

                        Anyway, it seems we agree on everything else

                        Oh and I havent heard of the airdale, AW rate, but from army experience I could just imagine what you mean by the lowest of the low. Thankfully I've moved up (only slightly)
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        • Author by dpjohan (January 27, 2010 7:30 pm ET)
             
          Democrats...Republicans and Wall Street
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    • Author by vhw28672478 (January 27, 2010 6:57 pm ET)
      2  
      Bush made the mess
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    • Author by leatherhelmet (January 27, 2010 7:47 pm ET)
        3
      Did Media Matters report that on Dec. 20 the CBO admitted it made a "major" mathmatical error in the predictions about the senate bill and fixed it? And then the director of the CBO said this:

      " In correcting the mistake, Elmendorf noted that projections for a bill 10-to-20 years down the road can be highly unreliable.

      "The imprecision of these calculations reflects the even greater degree of uncertainty that attends to them," he wrote."

      http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/20/cbo-senate-health-wont-reduce-deficits-quite/
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    • Author by me ne frego (January 28, 2010 12:01 am ET)
         
      "I dont want to blame Pres. Bush", BUT that is all I am capable of doing, I realize now that I have no ideas on how to get out of this mess except to get out that door over there and get a cocktail.
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    • Author by seahawks123 (January 28, 2010 4:37 pm ET)
        8
      A better title for this blog is "MMA falsely clains that socialism or communism hepls keep America strong"
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    • Author by skuttr (January 28, 2010 4:50 pm ET)
         
      MYTH: Myth: Obama is to blame for the 2009 deficit

      Reentrant myth busting time. Democrats controlled the legislative branch and the legislative branch holds the purse strings. Obama, being a part of that Democratic majority has responsibility that he shares with the rest of Congress.

      Another myth is that tax cuts cause deficits. Deficits are created by SPENDING more than you take in. Reagan created more revenue for the government by cutting taxes. Any description that ignores how bad the government revenue may have been without the tax cuts is at best, ignorant... at worst, deception.
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    • Author by nullbull (January 28, 2010 5:19 pm ET)
         
      Beware the dead-end arguments that so many people use as a shield to cover their own woeful lack of information:

      "I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but..."

      This is a classic. In one stroke the arguer both gives themselves an excuse to go on a evidence and fact free rant AND dismisses the only REAL evidence in the debate. You don't use this phrase when you genuinely disagree with the methodology behind CBO numbers. You use it when you haven't bothered to read the CBO report, understand the numbers, no grasp any real data, but still want to 'score points.' When someone says "I don't know where you're getting your numbers," ask them "then why the hell are you disputing them?"

      "Any estimate is going to be imperfect and inaccurate to some extent..."

      This is used when people much smarter than the arguer have gone about a rigorous, inductive, statistical approach to drawing conclusions from evidence, and the arguer needs to blurt out some platitude to cover for the fact that they don't understand inductive reasoning, statistical models, the usefulness of probability, etc. We hear it on TV a lot because the people giving you the news aren't very smart. If they talked to you like adults, they'd be accused of being elitist, nerdy, or (worse for media figures) BORING.

      Both of these arguments and many others are used all the time to dismiss real evidence in favor of having a silly slap-fight while speaking entirely in bumper sticker slogans.
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