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WND pushes dubious claim that 25 percent of military would quit if DADT repealed

February 10, 2010 12:56 pm ET — 32 Comments

WorldNetDaily columnist Mychal Massie advanced the dubious claim that if Don't Ask, Don't Tell were repealed, 25 percent of the military would decline to re-enlist, based on an unnamed poll of "military folks." But Massie's claim is refuted by the experiences of several other countries that lifted their bans on gays and lesbians serving but saw no such re-enlistment reductions, even when earlier polling had predicted such reductions.

WND columnist pushes dubious claim based on anonymous "reader who is in a position to know" 

From Massie's February 9 column:

Why is it so important to Obama to have homosexuals openly identified as such in the armed forces? Sexual orientation is a basic foundation of compatibility in battle. This is not a small issue. It will literally destroy the integrity of combat units, whether they be in the field, onboard ships, in airplane cockpits or in submarines.

A reader who is in a position to know told me that the "last survey among military folks [revealed] that 25 percent won't re-up if this happens. This means that to allow [the] 2 percent of those out there who choose this lifestyle into the military, we'd lose 25 percent of the experienced military folks who have morals."

So, why is it now such an imperative that homosexuals in the military be openly identified and recognized as such? Will it boost morale amongst the troops? Will it make those opposed to such behavior, based on their religious or personal convictions find homosexuality more acceptable? How will deconstructing established and understandably necessary military protocol - for the purpose of a social-engineering agenda being forced by extremists - provide for a stable military environment?

But WND's "25 percent" claim defies experiences of several other countries that have repealed their bans

Study: None of 104 experts interviewed said decisions to lift bans in four countries "led to increased difficulties in recruiting or retention." In a 2003 article for Parameters, the U.S. Army War College Quarterly, Aaron Belkin, a University of California at Santa Barbara professor who specializes in sexuality and the military, wrote that the university's Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military had conducted studies of the impact of the decisions to lift bans on gays and lesbians serving openly in the military in the United Kingdom, Israel, Canada, and Australia, and found: "Not a single one of the 104 experts interviewed believed that the Australian, Canadian, Israeli, or British decisions to lift their gay bans undermined military performance, readiness, or cohesion, led to increased difficulties in recruiting or retention, or increased the rate of HIV infection among the troops." According to Belkin: "To prepare the case studies, every identifiable pro-gay and anti-gay expert on the policy change in each country was interviewed, including officers and enlisted personnel, ministry representatives, academics, veterans, politicians, and nongovernmental observers. During each interview, experts were asked to recommend additional contacts, all of whom were contacted."

Study: Polls of Canada, UK predicting refusal to "work with gays," mass resignations not borne out by reality. In his 2003 article, Belkin wrote:

In a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers, the Canadian Department of National Defence found that 62 percent of male service members would refuse to share showers, undress, or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier, and that 45 percent would refuse to work with gays. A 1996 survey of 13,500 British service members reported that more than two-thirds of male respondents would not willingly serve in the military if gays and lesbians were allowed to serve. Yet when Canada and Britain subsequently lifted their gay bans, these dire predictions were not confirmed.

Study: Australian officers who said they would resign did not do so. In his 2003 article, Belkin wrote:

In Australia, Commodore R. W. Gates, whose rank is equivalent to a one-star admiral, remarked that the lifting of the ban was "an absolute non-event." Professor Hugh Smith, a leading academic expert on homosexuality in the Australian military, observed that when the government ordered the military to lift the ban, some officers said, "Over my dead body; if this happens I'll resign." However, Smith said that there were no such departures and that the change was accepted in "true military tradition." Bronwen Grey, an official in the Australian Defence Ministry, reported, "There was no increase in complaints about gay people or by gay people. There was no known increase in fights, on a ship, or in Army units. . . . The recruitment figures didn't alter."

Military sociologist: Results of survey show repeal debate parallels racial and gender integration debates

Segal: Percent of polled service members who would not re-enlist smaller than those who said they would resign if women admitted to West Point. A December 29, 2008, Military Times article reported that the paper's survey of active-duty service members found that if DADT were repealed, "nearly 10 percent of respondents said they would not re-enlist or extend their service, and 14 percent said they would consider terminating their careers after serving their obligated tours." The Times further reported:

David Segal, a military sociologist at the University at Maryland, drew a parallel between the current debate and earlier discussions about changing the composition of the force, from racial integration in the 1940s and 1950s to gender integration in the 1970s.

Segal described the nearly 10 percent of active-duty respondents who said they would leave the military if the policy was overturned as "a relatively small number."

"That's a smaller number of career officers than who in the 1970s said they would leave the service if women were admitted to West Point," Segal said. "They were expressing a strongly held attitude. But when women were admitted to West Point, there was not anything near that kind of exodus from the service."

Massie pushes discredited "morale," "social experiment" arguments

From Massie's column:

So, why is it now such an imperative that homosexuals in the military be openly identified and recognized as such? Will it boost morale amongst the troops? Will it make those opposed to such behavior, based on their religious or personal convictions find homosexuality more acceptable? How will deconstructing established and understandably necessary military protocol - for the purpose of a social-engineering agenda being forced by extremists - provide for a stable military environment?

[...]

My point should be obvious - being recognized as a openly homosexual doesn't make a person a better soldier. But being identified as openly homosexual would be a destabilizing poison to the morale of persons for whom said is vital.

Claims are dubious conservative talking points undermined by experience of other nations. Media Matters for America has documented prior claims from conservative media figures that repealing DADT would constitute a "social experiment" or undermine morale and unit cohesion. Those claims are heavily undermined by the fact that other countries allow gay men and lesbians to serve in the military, and many have said it has not created problems.

At least 25 nations -- including many U.S. allies -- allow military service by openly gay people. According to the Palm Center, as of June 2009, 25 nations allowed military service by openly gay people, including North America Treaty Organization member countries Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia, Spain, and the United Kingdom.

GAO: Other countries say allowing gays to serve openly "has not created problems in the military." In a June 1993 report to Congress, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) studied four countries that allow gay men and lesbians to serve in the military -- Canada, Israel, Germany, and Sweden -- and found that military officials said "the presence of homosexuals has not created problems in the military because homosexuality is not an issue in the military or in society at large." It also found that "[m]ilitary officials from each country said that, on the basis of their experience, the inclusion of homosexuals in their militaries has not adversely affected unit readiness, effectiveness, cohesion, or morale." GAO wrote that it chose those four countries to study because they "generally reflect Western cultural values yet still provide a range of ethnic diversity" and have similarly sized militaries.

Massie's column features anti-gay rhetoric

In his column, headlined "Is cross-dressing in fatigues next?", Massie writes that "[o]penly homosexual personnel would have a pernicious effect resulting in the delegitimization of the finest military in the world," and states that President Obama's call for repeal of DADT is "about forcing an Erebusic agenda and behavior into an environment that is morally and socially incompatible with it."

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    • Author by coldteablues19577325 (February 10, 2010 1:16 pm ET)
      3  
      "Why is it so important to Obama to have homosexuals openly identified as such in the armed forces? Sexual orientation is a basic foundation of compatibility in battle. This is not a small issue. It will literally destroy the integrity of combat units, whether they be in the field, onboard ships, in airplane cockpits or in submarines."

      Why is sexual orientation such an important topic to anyone? Sex is sex no matter who one is attracted to. I know very few GLBTs who would be interested in straight folks what-soever, so why do so many straight folks get caught up in worrying about being approached by them? I think chances of being approached by another straight person that you're not interested in is more likely than being approached by a homosexual. As for whether or not being homosexual affects military service, work, etc., it only an affect when those who HATE homosexuals choose to make sexual orientation an issue. Of course, this is once again MHO.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by nerzog (February 10, 2010 1:24 pm ET)
      1  
      A reader who is in a position to know told me that the "last survey among military folks [revealed] that 25 percent won't re-up if this happens.


      So, where is this "survey"? Why didn't he cite the study? My guess is that some homophobic Troglodyte asked his buddies, and 25% of them said they'd quit.

      Even if it's true, which I doubt, it would be a quick way to weed out the bigots.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Missouri Democrat (February 11, 2010 4:44 pm ET)
           
        Nerzog you mean he asked all 12 of his buddies and 4 of them said they wouldn't re-up? They probably never would jave anyway as most of them, probably, are some of the ex felons they let in during our adventure in Iraq.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by shaggles (February 10, 2010 1:38 pm ET)
         
      WTF does Erebusic mean? I tried looking it up on dictionary.com and got nothing.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by worrierking (February 10, 2010 1:40 pm ET)
         
      If that's the result so be it.

      We'll have to leave Iraq and Afghansitan immediately. We won't have the troops to keep any wars going.

      They'll have to start up the draft and draft a few of these teabagging, bedwetting, college Republicans to fill up the ranks of our military.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by seahawks123 (February 10, 2010 1:43 pm ET)
        7
      Well, I can tell that none of you have ever been in the military.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (February 10, 2010 1:48 pm ET)
        3  
        I guess you can tell that this guy never was, either... oh, wait....

        [http://dummidumbwit.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/colin-powell-meet-the-press-endorses-obama.jpg]
        Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (February 10, 2010 1:56 pm ET)
          3  
          Someone should tell Seasquawks that this isn't the real Navy.


          [http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0909/the-us-navy-demotivational-poster-1252675471.jpg]

          Report Abuse
          • Author by JDStears (February 10, 2010 2:20 pm ET)
            2  
            You're right, we would never have been caught dead in that ugly orange and brown disaster of a shirt on my ship. :P
            Report Abuse
          • Author by RowdyGuy (February 10, 2010 3:44 pm ET)
            2  
            OMG!! WorrierKing, I know where this photo was taken! I recognize the tattoo on the sailor's arm, the wrist band, the walkie-talkie... LOL!!!!!

            ...Rowdy!
            p.s. the shirt is ugly. ;-)
            Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (February 10, 2010 1:49 pm ET)
        5  
        Well, I can tell that none of you have ever been in the military.


        SeaSlime, does that mean you think most military people are bigots?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Conchobhar (February 10, 2010 2:06 pm ET)
        6  
        Well done, Seasquawks. You've maintained your perfect record: 100% wrong.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by JDStears (February 10, 2010 2:18 pm ET)
        9  
        You can tell that can you? So my 6 years in the Navy was a dream? The gay and lesbians that were stationed on the same ship as me was just a test, they weren't really gay or lesbian but testing us to see if anyone would turn them in? So the fact that all of us were still able to perform our jobs, shower and sleep in the same berthing as these individuals was just my imagination?

        Simple fact is that they're already in the military, many don't choose to keep their lifestyle a secret, and for the most part it causes absolutely no problem what so ever. I have it on good authority from Navy Seals I knew that they had a few openly gay members of their units and it was no big deal. NAVY SEALS! Not just some panty waisted homophobe that sits behind a desk and doesn't have to worry about all the so called concerns that we constantly hear voiced. If you can't work with an openly GLBT person then you need to look deep inside you and figure out why...and don't give me any of the religious moral crap. You don't have to agree with their lifestyle, just go on in your belief that you're right and they're wrong (even if they're not wrong and you're not right) and get the job done that you are payed to do.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (February 10, 2010 3:04 pm ET)
        6  
        If you were in the military, big bird, you were serving with gay people. Repealing DADT won't mean that those gay people you served with will suddenly start dressing in drag. [Dressing in drag is not an exclusive gay activity anyway, lots of heterosexual men dress in drag.] It just means that those guys that you served with who are gay no longer have to lie about it.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by RowdyGuy (February 10, 2010 3:47 pm ET)
        8  
        I was in the military in the '70's. There were gay members then; there are gay members now... what's the big deal? Why do 'some' heterosexual men think they are so hot gay men will not be able to control themselves? ...or is it the other way around?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (February 10, 2010 5:35 pm ET)
        3  
        ...and I can tell that the Seahawks have never won a Super Bowl.

        Wah wah!
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Unreality (February 11, 2010 2:32 am ET)
           
        You do know you were serving with gays already, don't you? The give away is that they're the studly guys at the tops of their class like my brother-in-law.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by ilikeike (February 11, 2010 2:09 pm ET)
           
        wrong. and I can tell you that many people in the military, just like in the wide society ,are aware of the sexuality of their closeted coworkers and dont really get too upset over it.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by GBU-15 (February 10, 2010 1:48 pm ET)
      2  
      So, did you serve in the GAY military or the REAL military? And how would you know the difference?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by peace4all (February 10, 2010 2:13 pm ET)
      3  
      even if it is true that 25% will quit if DADT is lifted so what? let them quit. we don't need a bunch of bigoted rednecks in control of our security anyway.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by wookie (February 10, 2010 2:48 pm ET)
        3  
        Very true. I am sure there was the same type of talk when blacks and whites were integrated in the army. I am sure white business owners complained that integration would make them lose sales. But society moves on and they get over it.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by bintx (February 10, 2010 3:00 pm ET)
      5  
      That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Under DADT, gay people serve, they just can't tell anyone they are gay. Repealing DADT wouldn't make any difference except that those gay people can now tell people they are gay without fear of discharge.

      Really stupid deduction.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by JDStears (February 10, 2010 3:10 pm ET)
        4  
        It's the flawed logic of "if you don't tell me then I can pretend it isn't so"...unfortunately it's typical of the basic logic we see a lot from "that crowd" about any topic be it DADT, global warming, health care reform, republican obstruction, Glenn Beck insanity, Fox News not actually being a news channel, Fair and Balanced =\= Fox News....I could go on but what would be the point. Those that agree don't need me to continue and those that don't agree won't believe me anyway.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by princeofwheels (February 10, 2010 3:28 pm ET)
      2  
      I propose this question to the DADT detractors..How many journalists, news reporters, opinionators, cameramen/women, grip operators, hairdressers, makeup people at Fox news are gay. Shouldn't they be questioned concerning their morals as Mr. WorldNutDaily asks.
      Does Fox have a DADT policy?

      To oppose DADT, one Democatic congressman should throw out a draft exploration concerning all 18 year olds without any deferments,for example, pimple on your butt, desk job with a cushion, college, forget, you r kids are great Americans. And all can be stationed in a combat zone if necessary.
      And Seahawk, I was in the service so what is your question?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by loonz (February 10, 2010 4:45 pm ET)
      3  
      He's accusing 25 percent of the military of being bigots.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by raddave43 (February 11, 2010 12:00 am ET)
      3  
      As a person who spent 20 plus years in the military, I can say that the military does not take polls to see if policy changes will cause soldiers to get out or not. The military implements policies and if soldiers do not like it they can leave when their time is up. Maybe the poll was taken by a soldier where he asked a few of his drunk buddies how they felt.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Refresh (February 11, 2010 6:12 am ET)
         
      Even if it were true, fine! Do we really want homophobes handling big long guns that shoot out hot stuff at other guys? Wouldn't "teh gays" be more capabale in that regard.

      Seriously all jokes aside, according to the boogey man who is in a position to know, making stuff up can be just as effective in scaring adults as it is for little children.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by newzhound (February 11, 2010 1:54 pm ET)
         
      Apparently WingNutzDaily never heard of "stop loss." It's BS to talk about US military personnel not re-enlisting (which isn't the same a pulling a Sarah Palin and "quitting," by the way). Haven't these idiots heard what President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld did?

      Or the $125,000 re-enlistment bonuses being paid to keep people in?

      Finally, if gays in the military were a problem, tossing them out would increase during time of war. Only - the facts prove that isn't the case. Quite the opposite. During war time the military has much more important issues to worry about. It's during peace time when they've gotten around to solving this "problem..."
      Report Abuse
    • Author by ilikeike (February 11, 2010 2:15 pm ET)
         
      seems to me the armies of the Greek and Roman empires did O.K with openly gay soldiers.and I dont recall the Samurai era armies of Japan were torn apart by this social" agenda"
      Report Abuse
    • Author by toodumbtoknow (February 11, 2010 3:46 pm ET)
         
      "we'd lose 25 percent of the experienced military folks who have morals." This can't possibly be wrong the way it is phrased. If ten people decide not to reenlist it means that there are 40 people in the military with morals. Only those with experience and morals would be affected the rest would just be insulted.
      Report Abuse

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