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Beck again advanced flawed Spanish study on green jobs

February 24, 2010 9:10 am ET — 50 Comments

Fox News' Glenn Beck stated that "Spain is already proving that green jobs don't work. You lose two jobs for every one job you create." But Beck's claim is based on a study that is reportedly supported by an oil industry-funded think tank and has been widely criticized for its "non rigorous methodology" and lack of "transparency and supporting statistics."

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Beck stated as fact disputed study's claim that "you lose two jobs" for every green job created

From the February 23 edition of Glenn Beck:

BECK: The science is bogus, it is falling apart. The newspapers overseas are printing it everywhere. India is pulling out. But us? No, we're still having our politicians tell us that we're not going to be able to leave a planet for our kids if we don't act now on cap-and-trade.

Spain is already proving that green jobs don't work. You lose two jobs for every one job that you create. And yet, people, like Van Jones, a guy who does believe in some of this stuff, he's here to tell you -- oh, yes, no, no, no, it does work.

Beck's claim apparently based on study by Gabriel Calzada Álvarez. The King Juan Carlos University study by Calzada stated: "[W]e find that for every renewable energy job that the State manages to finance, Spain's experience cited by President Obama as a model reveals with high confidence, by two different methods, that the U.S. should expect a loss of at least 2.2 jobs on average, or about 9 jobs lost for every 4 created, to which we have to add those jobs that non-subsidized investments with the same resources would have created." Beck has previously forwarded the study's findings as fact on his Fox News program.

But the study has been widely criticized for "lack of scientific rigor"

U.S. Department of Energy: "The primary conclusion made by the authors ... is not supported by their work." In an August 2009 White Paper responding to the Spanish study, the Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory stated that Calzada's study "represents a significant divergence from traditional methodologies used to estimate employment impacts from renewable energy. In fact, the methodology does not reflect an employment impact analysis. Accordingly, the primary conclusion made by the authors - policy support of renewable energy results in net job losses - is not supported by their work." The paper further concluded:

The recent report from King Juan Carlos University deviates from the traditional research methodologies used to estimate jobs impacts. In addition, it lacks transparency and supporting statistics, and fails to compare RE technologies with comparable energy industry metrics. It also fails to account for important issues such as the role of government in emerging markets, the success of RE exports in Spain, and the fact that induced economic impacts can be attributed to RE deployment. Finally, differences in policy are significant enough that the results of analysis conducted in the Spanish context are not likely to be indicative of workforce impacts in the United States or other countries.

WSJ's Johnson: "Study doesn't actually identify those jobs allegedly destroyed." Wall Street Journal reporter Keith Johnson challenged a key premise of the study, writing on March 30, 2009, that "the study doesn't actually identify those jobs allegedly destroyed by renewable-energy spending. What the study actually says is that government spending on renewable energy is less than half as efficient at job creation as private-sector spending." He went on to write: "The money the government has spent on clean energy may have edged out other government spending, but it's hard to see how it could have edged out private-sector spending, especially when the Socialist government there has reduced corporate income-tax rates, most recently this past January."

Spanish government criticized Calzada's study for "non rigorous methodology." In a May 20, 2009, letter to House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman Henry Waxman (D-CA), Teresa Ribera Rodríguez, Spain's Secretary of State for Climate Change, wrote that Calzada's analysis used a "low reliable and non rigorous methodology" and that the data he used are "totally out of keeping with the current reality of the sector." Stating that "the Spanish Government would like to express its views," Rodríguez further wrote:

In Spain, according to the last data of the Ministry of Industry, Tourism and Trade the [renewable energy] sector employs 73.900 direct workers, while other report by ISTAS-CCOO (labour union institute of work, environment and health) estimates 89000 direct jobs plus 99681 indirect jobs, against de 52200 direct and indirect jobs of the Calzada's figures (unknown source). According to data of the Ministry of Industry, Tourism and Trade and of the wind power business association, the wind power sector employed 37730 people instead of the 15000 jobs considered in the Calzada's paper.

ISTAS: "The lack on transparency that exists in the data provided is alarming." Spain's Union Institute of Work, Environment and Health (ISTAS) conducted an analysis of the Calzada study and stated that it contained a "lack of scientific rigor." ISTAS also said that the lack "of transparency that exists in the data provided is alarming" and that Calzada had written not "a study ... but rather an essay providing opinions and written with editorial overtones based on secondary information that is poorly referenced and/or explained and which provides only partial statements of the facts." ISTAS also stated that one of the "real intention[s] behind the document" was to "try and influence the U.S. media."

Study's author reportedly has ties to oil industry

Study reportedly "supported" by oil-funded Institute for Energy Research. Washington Post columnist George Will cited Calzada's study on June 25, 2009, as "[a] sobering report about Spain's experience." However, Will stated that Calzada's "study was supported by a like-minded U.S. think tank (the Institute for Energy Research, for which this columnist has given a paid speech.)" As Media Matters has noted, the Institute's funders include Exxon Mobil Corp. and the Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation, the president of which is an executive vice president of Koch Industries, whose subsidiaries "have been in the petroleum business since 1940."

Calzada is fellow at Centre for the New Europe, which has also taken oil-industry money. Calzada's biography from a Heartland Institute conference states that he is a "fellow of the Centre for the New Europe (Brussels, Belgium)." The president of the Centre for the New Europe has acknowledged receiving money from ExxonMobil in 2005, according to a December 7, 2006, article in London's Independent.

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    • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 9:25 am ET)
      3 8
      In the information above I dont see MMfA trying to show that 'green jobs' are good for an economy. You know why? They cant. Spain ended 2009 with the highest jobless rate in Europe.
      The current unemployment rate in Spain is 19.4% !!! Spain generates about 25% of its energy from renewable sourses, the US generates about 7%. How is that 'Green Economy' working for them? Beware America, President Obama has held Spain up as an example of what we should strive for as far as energy. If you dont think that a healthy economy isnt related to a GOOD energy plan, I think you are wrong. Pres. Obama has said that his plan will result in higher energy costs. How is that going to lead to a healthy economy?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by rumpleteasermom (February 24, 2010 10:42 am ET)
        7 2
        In the information above I dont see MMfA trying to show that 'green jobs' are good for an economy


        Because that wasn't what the article was about.

        I find it interesting that these deniers are all about denouncing the science right up until they find a (usually flawed) study that they like and then they are all about supporting that study.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© (February 24, 2010 10:52 am ET)
        5 1
        The current unemployment rate in Spain is 19.4% !!! Spain generates about 25% of its energy from renewable sourses, the US generates about 7%.

        Holy This Thing, That Thing, Q.E.D., Batman!
        ~
        Report Abuse
      • Author by JPH (February 24, 2010 12:10 pm ET)
        2  
        Re: MaineiacMan

        Spain's unemployment rate isn't caused by it's efforts to grow it's green energy sector.

        Spain's economy is almost entirely based upon tourism. The middle classes of Sweden, Ireland, UK, Germany ALL vacation in Spain.

        Global recession = fewer tourists = construction companies halt jobs = construction workers unemployed.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 4:21 pm ET)
          2 3
          No, but its efforts to grow a 'green energy' sector, although nobel in nature, will not provide an economic boost (outside of subsidized/government jobs) and will result in higher energy costs which isnt good for a struggling economy. In its current form, with our current technology, I dont see a 'green energy sector' as a way out out of a recession or as a SUSTAINABLE way to reduce unemployment (when it is subsidized by the government). It just becomes another arm of government and eats up more tax dollars. There will be more jobs lost in other areas of the economy than gained in the 'green sector' due to higher energy costs.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by So Fain (February 24, 2010 12:29 pm ET)
        4 2
        Not this idiot again.

        You just posted some numbers with no proof of their connection. I despise small minded crap like that.

        Yes, Spain has had an unemployment problem since the 1970's... Long before the green jobs push... And, suprise, suprise... The two are unrelated.

        "Long-term sociodemographic trends are at the root of the current problem: the growth of Spain's population and the entrance of women into the labor market have generated increases in the economically active population averaging 1.2 percent per year since 1980 (see table). The number of women in the labor force grew by a striking 3.1 percent per year, while the annual growth rate for men was a negligible 0.2 percent because of early retirement schemes and a drop in the number of young men in the work force. As a result, the share of women in the Spanish labor force rose significantly, from 28 percent in 1981 - the lowest rate of any country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) - to 36 percent in 1994, although it still lags behind most West European countries."

        http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/national-security-international/524124-1.html

        NOT Green Jobs. You just came on here and purposefully skewed the facts to attack Green Jobs. You, sir, are a liar and add nothing of merit to any debate that you enter on MMfA.

        Now for the truth about this study...

        Debunking The Spanish Study on The Dire Result of Green Jobs Creation
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 1:37 pm ET)
          2 4
          "The Green Economy Post"...lol...are you kidding? Explain to me with common sense how the Spain model that President Obama is pushing will be a good thing for America.

          I will say this, the one good thing I can think of is energy independence.

          I dont see higher energy costs as good for the economy.
          I dont see the unemployment rate decreasing from us adopting the 'Spain mode'.

          And yes, of course the "Green sector" of the economy will be growing when the feds are subsidizing, mandating and regulating us into it. Common sense tells me that the other areas of the economy will suffer greater losses than the gains in the 'gree sector' will create.

          Put down your talking points and biased studies, use your head and some common sense.

          Higher energy costs = more expenses on families and businesses = worse economic environment.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by epkklk851 (February 24, 2010 9:41 am ET)
      5 1
      Glennie is one of the many people who don't want to admit there are any problems with the environment, because then they might have to change their lifestyle. I think Glennie would rather die than give up his SUV.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 9:56 am ET)
        2 9
        How about the people lecturing others about how to live an 'eco-friendly life' and STILL driving them around themselves. Arnold S.? Al Gore? Hollywood fruitloops?

        SUV's arent killing polar bears...wake up.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (February 24, 2010 10:10 am ET)
          6 1
          Some evidence that your not typing this while sleeping?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by epkklk851 (February 24, 2010 10:31 am ET)
          7 2
          Arnold has had at least one his SUVs modified to run on vegetable oil and he sued the EPA to strengthen California pollution standards.

          Al Gore buys carbon offsets. His home is actually quite efficient, the famous listing of his energy usage is not reflective of his home's energy usage.

          Bill Nye and Ed Begley actually have eco-friendly homes, even though some of the technology is very expensive to install.

          Now, you sound like one of those shriveled, constipated old biddies who sit in the corners of church events and carp about how bratty other people's children are and yet think themselves exemplary Christians. Why don't you totter off and get yourself a cup of lemonade, I'm sure it is made from non-recyclable styrofoam.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 11:38 am ET)
            3 7
            Do you REALLY believe that everyday Americans will (or can afford to) be running cars on vegatable oil? That is a Arnold PR stunt.

            Carbon offsets....pa-leeeze...LOL! I think I ought to start brokering those.

            There is nothing wrong with an eco-frinedly home and cudo's to people who live what they preach.

            When being 'eco-friendly' is feasible....everyday Americans will do it. I recycle. I conserve. I do those things because it makes sense. I do not want a government to tell me to do things that will cost me money and non make sense.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (February 24, 2010 11:57 am ET)
              5 2
              I guess you don't want to the US to be the leader in the next wave of new technology.

              Drill baby, drill!!!!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 12:06 pm ET)
                3 9
                I dont want the government mandating it and raising costs for everyone to force 'green' onto us. I want capitalism (do you remember what that is?) to create new technology to make us an energy independant nation. In the process, capitalism will create new wealth. But yes, drill, baby, drill! Which can also be translated to 'jobs, baby, jobs'.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by MadRiver Jack (February 24, 2010 12:32 pm ET)
                  6 1
                  I want capitalism (do you remember what that is?) to create new technology to make us an energy independant nation.
                  I do to. I wish we could get some capitalism back into our corrupt economic/political system. The power held by the entrenched corportist oligopolies has killed every attempt by the market and/or the government to move our economy off the fossil fuel regimen.

                  The U.S. became an economic powerhouse because of the collaboration of its government over the decades. Building canals and railroads, making rivers navigable and the interstate highway system are just a few examples.

                  I am all for unleashing the power of the free market to bring us to a much better place. First we have to break the grip of the fossils and their tools who are working overtime to convince people that there is no crisis.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 1:02 pm ET)
                    2 1
                    I'm with you Jack and I'm even OK with your version of government/private collaboration, most of which relates to transportation (an area where government needs to be). What we see now is "cronnie capitalism" with large corporations lobbying/using the government to get regulations that entrench the status que, allowing the large companies to continue and squash new capitalist. There are other types of cronnies in business using government (and vice versa) such as AARP lining up behind the healthcare plan, not because it is good for thier constituents (seniors) but because they will now sell suplimental insurance to seniors. Also (to a lessor degree) General Electric pushing the 'green initiative' to sell turbines.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by rumpleteasermom (February 24, 2010 2:03 pm ET)
                    2 1
                    The power held by the entrenched corportist oligopolies has killed every attempt by the market and/or the government to move our economy off the fossil fuel regimen.


                    I think there is a typo in there - don't you mean oily-gopolies? ;-)
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by diamonds (February 25, 2010 4:16 am ET)
                   
                The next wave of new technology is decided by the market, not by government. Cooperations will invest in whatever technologies they think will be profitable - higher capacity rechargeable batteries, ultracapacitors, maybe electric cars, but as a whole green jobs thing isn't really the place we are headed. It's a constant cycle of invest a little in one area, see how well it works, and alter your course accordingly. If you presume that one technology will win and don't account for failure, you are probably going to fail. Case in point, have you taken a look at Europe's unemployment rate? In particular, Spain's?
                Report Abuse
            • Author by epkklk851 (February 24, 2010 12:12 pm ET)
              5  
              The problem is, doing "what makes sense" doesn't come naturally to a whole lot of people. For instance, look at seatbelt technology and seatbelt usage. I grew up in the 1960's. No one used seatbelts. I only started using them after my mother's friend was killed in a head-on crash in 1969 or so. I saw the wreckage, and the survivors stayed with us for a couple of weeks. Both of them would have received far less severe injuries had they been wearing seatbelts. The usage of these "what makes sense" devices went up dramatically after states started demanding usage and fining scofflaws. And people only started recycling in this country when it became required by laws. I recycle, too. Since I lived in Korea, I am frustrated and appalled by the lack of recycling done here in the states. I put out one bin that has all my recyclables in it, no separating. I have no idea if there is separation of materials at the plant.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (February 24, 2010 2:39 pm ET)
                4  
                doing "what makes sense" doesn't come naturally to a whole lot of people.

                Especially the neanderthals who think encouraging a clean environment and pushing for green energy is somehow taking away their freedom to rumble down the highway in their SUV or keep the thermostat on 80 all winter.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by So Fain (February 24, 2010 12:31 pm ET)
          4 1
          How about the people lecturing others about how to live an 'eco-friendly life' and STILL driving them around themselves. Arnold S.? Al Gore? Hollywood fruitloops?

          SUV's arent killing polar bears...wake up.


          More lies from MaineiacMan with ZERO factual data.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by bintx (February 24, 2010 10:52 am ET)
      2 2
      Hopefully, Beck's incoherent rants are becoming a liability for News Corp. He's on day 12 of no corporate advertisers in the UK [ad spots are being filled with Sky News [the UK Fox] and weatehr updates. He is being called out by Limbaugh, Levin and other hate talkers about his CPAC speech and his completely incoherent and nonsensical rants.

      Hopefully, he'll fade away soon.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 11:40 am ET)
        2 8
        and now back to the point of the 'incoherent rant'....Spain.

        Show me how a green economy is going to work?

        Lower energy costs?

        Lower unemployment?

        Show me
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bintx (February 24, 2010 12:12 pm ET)
          4 3
          I believe, that, if you are able to read, the answers to your questions are in the article above.

          Try reading and turn off Beck's incoherent and false rants. Based upon the attacks coming from the hate talk radio crew and his complete lack of advertisers in the UK . . . Beck's not going to be around much longer for you to parrot. Read and don't just read things which support your incorrect assumptions.

          Have a good one . . . and seriously, try reading the article above. It answers your questions.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 1:29 pm ET)
            1 1
            They arent....they say that the Calzada study is flawed. They dont say that a 'green economy' will work. They dont say that energy costs will be the same. They dont say what the unemployment rate will be.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (February 24, 2010 2:41 pm ET)
              5 2
              How much is too much to pay to ween ourselves off foreign oil and have a cleaner environment?

              You know, oil money is funding the terrorists. So if you're against spending anything to promote green energy to end our dependence on foreign oil, you are in fact supporting the terrorists. Or would you rather spend the money on bombs that kill people?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by peace4all (February 24, 2010 2:56 pm ET)
                3 2
                Or would you rather spend the money on bombs that kill people?

                lol, now there is a redundant question for manicman. he is a wingnut, we can never spend enough on bombs. spend money to help our country= bad, spend money to destroy another country= good.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 3:19 pm ET)
                2 1
                Equating oil and bombs? Are we really back to that? Tell you what, I'll go this far....I'll let you equate FOREIGN oil to bombs. We have oil here! It is in Alaska, it is in the Rockies, lets get off Middle East oil NOW! Drill, baby, drill...jobs, baby, jobs! I am not against wind power (in fact my company works on wind power projects). I am not against solar. My state is starting to experiment with the idea of tidal power....its all good! But get the government out of the way, stop setting us up for (mandated) energy cost increases and let private and innovative entrepenuers have at it!
                Report Abuse
        • Author by So Fain (February 24, 2010 12:41 pm ET)
          4 2
          *Sigh*

          Green Jobs Sector 'Poised for Explosive Growth,' Study Says (NY Times)

          "The nation's clean-energy economy is poised for explosive growth," said Lori Grange, the Pew Center on the States' interim deputy director. "The trends include surging venture capital investment ... a critical growth rate in clean-energy generation, energy efficiency and environmentally friendly products."


          The report finds that job growth in the clean-energy economy outperformed total job growth in 38 states and the District of Columbia between 1998 and 2007, the most recent year for which data are available. The total number of jobs grew 3.7 percent during that period, which included the dot-com boom and bust and the beginning of the current recession.


          Pew Finds Clean Energy Economy Generates Significant Job Growth (Pew Trusts)

          Pew found that jobs in the clean energy economy grew at a national rate of 9.1 percent, while traditional jobs grew by only 3.7 percent between 1998 and 2007. There was a similar pattern at the state level, where job growth in the clean energy economy outperformed overall job growth in 38 states and the District of Columbia during the same period. The report also found that this promising sector is poised to expand significantly, driven by increasing consumer demand, venture capital infusions, and federal and state policy reforms.


          California leads with 36% growth in 'green' jobs (USA Today)

          Unlike California's software and biotech industries, which are centered in a few clusters, "Green jobs are disbursed all around California," says Noel Perry, the venture-capital founder of Next 10.

          California's green-job sector is three times the size of its biotech industry and almost two-thirds the size of its software sector, the report notes.


          For Job Market, Green Means Growth (Forbes)

          Green businesses have also been growing at a rate of about 5% annually during the last three years, Doyle says. Two particularly hot areas are global carbon credit trading, which doubled to $28 billion from 2005 to 2006, and construction and services associated with ''green buildings'' that meet industry standards set by the U.S. Green Building Council. Today, the green building industry is worth $12 billion; 10 years ago, it was unquantifiable.


          Need more evidence? I've got it. I don't just come to the debate armed with Fox News talking points and ConRadio lies. You should try it sometime.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 1:26 pm ET)
            3 2
            Well, duh....Green job growth (WITH government subsidies) is big right now. I am telling you that the way this is all set up is that the government will start mandating energy constraints and controls. EPA will start making regulations more strict to 'push' us toward green energy (at higher costs)..Obama has said it himself "electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket". Look, I get it, a green economy is a real thing...BUT...you dont get it. With rising energy costs (in a green economy), there will be job losses in the private sector that will outnumber job gains in the 'green sector'.

            Let the private sector (remember capitalism?) do it and I'm fine with it all!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (February 24, 2010 2:43 pm ET)
              2 2
              Yeah, the private sector has done such a good job promoting green energy. Just like the private sector did such a good job with the housing/mortgage market.

              Some things are too forward thinking or too large for the private sector to take on, especially when the private sector worships at the alter of profits and not at the alter of the common good. When profits can't be attained in the short time, that's where the government comes in.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 3:31 pm ET)
                3 1
                The 'common good'? You have got to be kidding me. If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would thank those 'evil capitalist' that have given YOU the highest standard of living on the planet! Wake up! It wasnt your beloved government that has given you all of the inventions, improvements and advances in technology to make your life as an American as good as it is. I will admit that in some cases the private sector has taken government technology (GPS for instance) and adapted it for a product that Americans would want but it is not the government that runs companies that make these products (yet) and thank god for that!

                The alter of the common good....give me a break.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by vhw28672478 (February 24, 2010 3:46 pm ET)
                  1  
                  Beck is a moron
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (February 24, 2010 6:04 pm ET)
                  1 1
                  If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would thank those 'evil capitalist' that have given YOU the highest standard of living on the planet!


                  Can you provide some documentation to back that up? I tried and found the ten richest countries (in 2004)

                  Luxembourg ... $56,380
                  Norway ... $51,810
                  Switzerland ... $49,600
                  United States ... $41,440
                  Denmark ... $40,750
                  Iceland ... $37,920
                  Japan ... $37,050
                  Sweden ... $35,840
                  Ireland ... $34,310
                  United Kingdom ... $33,630

                  And this as well...

                  The Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to distinguish whether the country is a developed, a developing or an under-developed country, and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life. The index was developed in 1990 by Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq and Indian economist Amartya Sen.[1]



                  1 â–¬ Norway 0.971 â–² 0.001
                  2 â–¬ Australia 0.970 â–² 0.002
                  3 â–¬ Iceland 0.969 â–² 0.002
                  4 â–¬ Canada 0.966 â–² 0.001
                  5 â–¬ Ireland 0.965 â–² 0.001
                  6 â–² (1) Netherlands 0.964 â–² 0.003
                  7 â–¼ (1) Sweden 0.963 â–² 0.002
                  8 â–² (3) France 0.961 â–² 0.003
                  9 â–¬ Switzerland 0.960 â–² 0.001
                  10 â–¬ Japan 0.960 â–² 0.002
                  11 â–¼ (3) Luxembourg 0.960 â–² 0.001
                  12 â–² (1) Finland 0.959 â–² 0.004
                  13 â–¼ (1) United States 0.956 â–² 0.001


                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 7:00 pm ET)
                    2 3
                    As I said earlier to someone else, take your stats and start a fire with them.

                    Standard of living = modern conveniences. How many countries can say that the average poor lives in a small house or apartment with heat/ac cell phones, cable tv, internet access, a car, a microwave over and other kitchen applianaces that we all take for granted?

                    This is greatest nation on the face of the earth. Capitalism has made it that way. Progressivism, if allowed, will kill our economic engine and reduce us to a shell of ourselves.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Johaely (February 24, 2010 9:06 pm ET)
                         
                      Becuase it seems that in capitalist America you don't own money, money owns you.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by raddave43 (February 24, 2010 11:18 pm ET)
                      1  
                      All the countries listed above?
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Old_Benjamin (February 25, 2010 12:02 pm ET)
                      2  
                      How many countries can say that the average poor lives in a small house or apartment with heat/ac cell phones, cable tv, internet access, a car, a microwave over and other kitchen applianaces that we all take for granted?


                      Did you look at the countries on the lists? Which one(s) do YOU think would not qualify for your "standard of living" test? And it's also telling that to you "modern conveniences" include material things but nothing about health care, education or other less tangible things that go to standard of living.

                      As I said earlier to someone else, take your stats and start a fire with them.


                      There it is in all it's glory - behold the conservative embrace of ignorance!

                      Or shorter - USA! USA! USA is the greatest country in the world cause I say so.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by MaineiacMan (February 25, 2010 12:50 pm ET)
                           
                        Sorry Benny, Freedom makes America great. That would also fall under my definition of 'standard of living'. That includes the freedom to succeed and conversely the freedom to fail. Success takes work and cannot be guaranteed by a government. When a government tries to guarantee success it takes steps toward oppression, over taxation, and tyranny. There is nothing wrong with a government protecting citizens from being wronged. There is something wrong with a government sucking the life out of its own economy. Got kind of sidetracked there Benny Boy, sorry. Lunch time!
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Old_Benjamin (February 25, 2010 3:04 pm ET)
                             
                          Wait - you just went on about how well off the poor are in the US compared to other countries. You were asked which countries on the lists provided are lacking the possesions you claim the poor have in the US. You then came back with some other nonsense. Another con trait - obfuscation

                          Ummm, and you think citizens of those countries don't have the freedom to succeed?

                          That's what I thought - you haven't a clue.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by rumpleteasermom (February 25, 2010 5:13 pm ET)
                               
                            I'm trying to figure out where these 'poor' people HE knows are because the poor people I know don't have cable TV, cell phones, intenet access, etc. (Well, they have limited internet access at the library - which is good because you can't apply for unemployment without it.) Some have apartments with working appliances, some have apartments without, and some have no apartments at all.

                            I think I'll tell them all to move to Maine - it must be a lot better up there assuming MaineiacMan used his home in his moniker.
                            Report Abuse
    • Author by happygoluckytoyou2345 (February 24, 2010 11:34 am ET)
      1 1
      just to clarify.....

      FOX NEWS WHICH IS (check this is a fact)
      LARGELY OWNED BY SAUDI PRINCE GIMMYYERMONEY

      WHO HAS CLAIMED THAT IN THE PAST HE HAS INFLUENCED FOX NEWS REPORTING

      AND WHO IS HIGHLY CONCERNED WITH KEEPING OIL AS AMERICA'S SOURCE OF ENERGY

      PAYS GLEN THE DIP BECK TO VERIFY THAT GREEN IS THE NEW BAD

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      • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 4:27 pm ET)
        3 2
        Assuming that is the case....you'd agree with me! Energy independence! Drill baby, drill! Jobs, baby jobs! Get off of arab oil!

        Of course, given the 'pro-war', 'anti-islamic' slant that everyone says FoxNews has, your post seems to be, at the least conflicted, at the most laughable.
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        • Author by raddave43 (February 24, 2010 6:26 pm ET)
          2 1
          Drill baby, drill. Tell this to the oil companies who hold leases on millions of acres of land and off shore that they have not even explored, must less actually drilled. Because they are too worried about keeping their profit margins up by not spending the money necessary to explore and drill. BTW our #1 supplier of oil is Canada followed by Mexico, not Saudi Arabia.
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          • Author by MaineiacMan (February 24, 2010 7:11 pm ET)
            2 2
            Nope, the more oil they discover the more the more money they'll make. Naturally the oil companies want to drill in 'ripe' areas. There are other areas that they may have rights to that arent as promising. Just because an oil company has rights to an area, doesnt mean that there is oil there. Its a competitve business and you buy up rights to as many areas that COULD have oil as you can. There is oil in Alaska, they want to expand there. There is oil (shale form) in the Rockies, especially Wyoming, they want to expand there. There is oil offshore from Florida on the gulf side, they want to expand there. Why would they want to expand if it would lower profits as you are trying to claim?
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            • Author by raddave43 (February 24, 2010 11:07 pm ET)
              2  
              Because of the initial cost of exploration and drilling is more than they are willing to invest. Not when they can kssp production down driving up the price of oil. These are areas the oil companies have not explored so they don't know if oil is there or not.
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