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In newest column, Wash. Post's Thiessen defends witch hunt against DOJ lawyers

March 09, 2010 1:13 am ET — 140 Comments

Washington Post columnist Marc Thiessen defended the witch hunt against Justice Department attorneys who previously represented terror suspects and other detainees, falsely suggesting that criticism of the witch hunt has come only from progressives, when, in fact, conservatives have also condemned the attacks.

Thiessen brings "shameful" attacks on DOJ lawyers to Post pages

In column, Thiessen defended attacks on DOJ lawyers, singled out Clinton-era official Walter Dellinger for criticism. From Thiessen's March 8 column:

Finally, two weeks ago, he [Attorney General Eric Holder] admitted that nine political appointees in the Justice Department had represented or advocated for terrorist detainees, but he failed to identify seven whose names were not publicly known or to directly answer other questions the senators posed. So Keep America Safe, a group headed by Liz Cheney, posted a Web ad demanding that Holder identify the "al-Qaeda seven," and a subsequent Fox News investigation unearthed the names. Only under this public pressure did the Justice Department confirm their identities -- but Holder still refuses to disclose their roles in detention policy.

[...]

Yet for raising questions, Cheney and the Republican senators have been vilified. Former Clinton Justice Department official Walter Dellinger decried the "shameful" personal attacks on "these fine lawyers," while numerous commentators leveled charges of "McCarthyism."

Numerous conservatives have joined Dellinger in condemning attacks on DOJ lawyers. According to Politico's Ben Smith, numerous conservatives signed a letter agreeing with Dellinger that the attacks on the Justice Department lawyers are "shameful." They also said the attacks "undermine the Justice system." Smith reported that the signers include:

[F]ormer Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, John Ashcroft's No. 2, and Peter Keisler, who served as acting attorney general during President Bush's second term. They also include several lawyers who dealt directly with detainee policy: Matthew Waxman and Charles "Cully" Stimson, who each served as deputy assistant secretary of defense for detainee affairs; Daniel Dell'Orto, who was acting general counsel for the Department of Defense; and Bradford Berenson, a prominent Washington lawyer who worked on the issues as an associate White House counsel during President Bush's first term.

Conservatives noted that DOJ lawyers acted in the tradition of John Adams. From the statement signed by Bush administration lawyers:

The past several days have seen a shameful series of attacks on attorneys in the Department of Justice who, in previous legal practice, either represented Guantanamo detainees or advocated for changes to detention policy. As attorneys, former officials, and policy specialists who have worked on detention issues, we consider these attacks both unjust to the individuals in question and destructive of any attempt to build lasting mechanisms for counterterrorism adjudications.

The American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients is at least as old as John Adams's representation of the British soldiers charged in the Boston massacre. People come to serve in the Justice Department with a diverse array of prior private clients; that is one of the department's strengths. The War on Terror raised any number of novel legal questions, which collectively created a significant role in judicial, executive and legislative forums alike for honorable advocacy on behalf of detainees. In several key cases, detainee advocates prevailed before the Supreme Court. To suggest that the Justice Department should not employ talented lawyers who have advocated on behalf of detainees maligns the patriotism of people who have taken honorable positions on contested questions and demands a uniformity of background and view in government service from which no administration would benefit.

Such attacks also undermine the Justice system more broadly. In terrorism detentions and trials alike, defense lawyers are playing, and will continue to play, a key role. Whether one believes in trial by military commission or in federal court, detainees will have access to counsel. Guantanamo detainees likewise have access to lawyers for purposes of habeas review, and the reach of that habeas corpus could eventually extend beyond this population. Good defense counsel is thus key to ensuring that military commissions, federal juries, and federal judges have access to the best arguments and most rigorous factual presentations before making crucial decisions that affect both national security and paramount liberty interests.

Wash. Post itself has criticized the attacks on DOJ lawyers. From the Post's March 5 editorial:

It is important to remember that no less an authority than the Supreme Court ruled that those held at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, must be allowed to challenge their detentions in a U.S. court. It is exceedingly difficult to exercise that right meaningfully without the help of a lawyer. It is also worth remembering that the Bush administration wanted to try some Guantanamo detainees in military commissions -- a forum in which a defendant is guaranteed legal representation. Even so, it took courage for attorneys to stand up in the midst of understandable societal rage to protect the rights of those accused of terrorism. Advocates knew that ignorance and fear would too often cloud reason. They knew that this hysteria made their work on these cases all the more important. The video from Keep America Safe proves they were right.

Thiessen misrepresents DOJ lawyers' arguments on Guantánamo detainees

Thiessen suggested DOJ's Daskal was more concerned for detainees' rights than American lives. From Thiessen's column (ellipses in the original):

One lawyer in the National Security Division of Holder's Justice Department, Jennifer Daskal, has written that any terrorist not charged with a crime "should be released from Guantanamo's system of indefinite detention" even though "at least some of these men may ... join the battlefield to fight U.S. soldiers and our allies another day." Should a lawyer who advocates setting terrorists free, knowing they may go on to kill Americans, have any role in setting U.S. detention policy? My hunch is that most Americans would say no.

In fact, Daskal argued that holding detainees indefinitely without charge is "a greater threat to the United States." From Daskal's Human Rights Watch report, "How to Close Guantanamo":

An insurgency like al Qaeda is not static, but fluid and dynamic. If the particular detainees in Guantanamo are kept out of circulation, others can -- and will -- fight in their place. The supply outstrips demand. The high-profile detentions of a few dozen potentially dangerous men in Guantanamo do little to make the United States safer. To the contrary, it delegitimizes U.S. moral authority, helps to fuel the "recuperative power" of the enemy, and undercuts critical efforts to win hearts and minds.

The United States should do everything it can to mitigate the risks posed by the release of these men. It should press their home countries to lawfully monitor returned detainees' activities and to charge and detain anyone who commits a criminal act. But some countries are unable or unwilling to take on that role. Nearly 100 of the remaining Guantanamo detainees are Yemeni. It is unlikely that the United States will ever be adequately satisfied that Yemen is taking sufficient steps to monitor and respond to acts of terrorism within its borders. Does that mean that these Yemenis should be locked up without charge -- possibly until the ends of their lives -- based on an assessment that they might pose a future risk? No. They should be released. Doing so will require an assumption of risk. It will require the United States to accept that at least some of these men may cross the border and join the battlefield to fight U.S. soldiers and our allies another day.

General Barry McCaffrey, former U.S. drug czar, following an academic mission to Guantanamo Bay, advised the Pentagon: World opinion is so united against the detention facility that "there is now no possible political support for Guantanamo going forward." It "may be cheaper and cleaner to kill them in combat then sit on them the next 15 years."

General McCaffrey makes a point. Those detained at Guantanamo present a greater threat to the United States than they would if they returned to the battlefield, where -- under the laws of war -- they can be shot and killed on sight.

Supreme Court found that Bush admin violated detainee rights in cases at issue

Thiessen claimed DOJ lawyers were "using federal courts as a tool to undermine our military." Thiessen also wrote in his column: "The habeas lawyers were not doing their constitutional duty to defend unpopular criminal defendants. They were using the federal courts as a tool to undermine our military's ability to keep dangerous enemy combatants off the battlefield in a time of war."

Supreme Court repeatedly found that Bush administration was violating detainee's rights. According to a Foxnews.com blog post cited by Thiessen, two of the Justice Department attorneys at issue represented "six Bosnian-Algerian detainees held at Guantanamo Bay," including Lakhdar Boumediene. In Boumediene v. Bush, the Supreme Court found that the Bush administration had violated Guantánamo detainees' constitutional right to present habeas corpus petitions to civilian courts. In addition, the Foxnews.com blog post noted that another of the DOJ lawyers was Neal Katyal, who represented Salim Hamdan in the Supreme Court case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. In that case, the Supreme Court found that the Bush administration had violated the Geneva Conventions in its handling of detainees.

Thiessen relies on conspiracy theorist Andy McCarthy for attack on DOJ lawyers

Thiessen quoted Andy McCarthy's attack on DOJ lawyers. Thiessen countered the argument that the Justice Department lawyers "are simply following a great American tradition, in which everyone gets a lawyer and their day in court" by quoting National Review Online's Andy McCarthy. Thiessen wrote:

Some defenders say al-Qaeda lawyers are simply following a great American tradition, in which everyone gets a lawyer and their day in court. Not so, says Andy McCarthy, the former assistant U.S. attorney who put Omar Abdel Rahman, the "blind sheik," behind bars for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. "We need to be clear about what the American tradition is," McCarthy told me. "The Sixth Amendment guarantees the accused -- that means somebody who has been indicted or otherwise charged with a crime -- a right to counsel. But that right only exists if you are accused, which means you are someone who the government has brought into the civilian criminal justice system." The habeas lawyers were not doing their constitutional duty to defend unpopular criminal defendants. They were using the federal courts as a tool to undermine our military's ability to keep dangerous enemy combatants off the battlefield in a time of war.

McCarthy has questioned Obama's birth certificate, claimed that Ayers may have written Obama's book. Undermining his credibility as an Obama administration critic, McCarthy demanded a "vault copy" of President Obama's birth certificate in a National Review article, claiming that it is necessary to determine Obama's "honesty." The article contained sub-headlines such as "Who Is This Guy?" and "A Muslim Citizen of Indonesia." McCarthy has also written two blog posts claiming that former Weather Underground member William Ayers may have written Obama's memoir, Dreams from My Father.

In his book, Thiessen took attacks on DOJ lawyers to another level

In his book, Thiessen attacked lawyers who worked at firms that represented detainees. In his book, Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack, Thiessen not only attacked the Justice Department attorneys who represented terror suspects, but he also attacked "senior partners" at law firms in which other lawyers took on such cases for allowing "work on behalf of America's terrorist enemies" to continue.

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    • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 8:13 am ET)
      2 10
      Since the government consists mostly of lawyers, any attack on lawyers is not going to go well.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by jjcomet514 (March 09, 2010 8:40 am ET)
        9 1
        Jose, did you even read anything written above, or did you simply see the word "lawyer" and decide to post a snarky reply? Or perhaps you agree with Thiessen that DOJ attorneys who accept the assignment by their superiors to defend terror suspects should be vilified and punished for doing their jobs and refusing to try to subvert the Constitution?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 8:51 am ET)
          5 4
          Jose never reads the articles.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 8:57 am ET)
            6 2
            I think someone had a birthday recently. Jose's 4 now.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 9:18 am ET)
              5 3
              I noticed that, he's gone from 2-4 in record time. Like I say, ignoring trolls doesn't make them go away, they just keep on being REBORN with new names.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 10:59 am ET)
                  3
                Is your name bintx?

                Report Abuse
                • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 11:05 am ET)
                  2 3
                  Actually, no. My name starts with a "b" and I am "in" Texas (TX). It's the same as it's been since I registered on this site. You've been here under at least 3 different names since I registered.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 11:46 am ET)
                  6 1
                  My name is actually Worrierking.

                  Cuthbert J. Worrierking.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (March 09, 2010 12:17 pm ET)
                1 7
                Ignore troll POSTS!

                It doesn't matter WHO makes the post. It's not ignoring a screen name. It's ignoring the contribution when it's off topic and/or not intended to participate in the debate!

                And that CAN be done, even if they come back as another screen name. In fact, being reborn with a new screen name has nothing to do with anything.

                You're wrong here. It's too bad you won't admit it.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:32 pm ET)
                  4 3
                  Oh, hush, second assistant board monitor. Really, nobody wants to hear your stupid lectures.

                  You are the one who is wrong, but you won't admit it. I've been on internet forums for years. Trolls don't go away if they are ignored, they simply come back and continue to post false information. Ignoring their crap gives it credence.

                  As I've said, if you want to IGNORE THE TROLLS, do so, but don't presume to lecture everyone else.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:39 pm ET)
                    1 5
                    Delldolly and Bintx are two of the most prominent trolls on MM.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (March 09, 2010 1:31 pm ET)
                      7
                    No, you are the one who is wrong.

                    I have clearly explained, MULTIPLE times, HOW to ignore the troll. I have explained, doofus, that ONE PERSON debunks what they say, and then they tell OTHERS to not feed the troll post.

                    That DOES work.

                    No one wants to see YOU feeding trolls.

                    And it still baffles me why you think YOU should be able to tell me NOT to do what I am suggesting, but you don't think I should be able to tell people what I think others should do.

                    You just don't think before you post sometimes. You'd be well-advised to stop behaving that way.

                    Right here, you alleged that we shouldn't ignore trolls because they only come back with a new screen name. That was a bogus argument. The one above is also a bogus argument.

                    If you don't want to help the site out, feel free to ignore my solutions, which DO work. But stop with the bogus arguments against it. Debunking what a troll post says, and then warning others to not reply, DOES work quite often. It's not a perfect solution, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used, because it does OFTEN work.

                    Stop being so self-centered and try it. Stop feeding trolls.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Ruby (March 09, 2010 3:36 pm ET)
                      7  
                      You get sooooo po'd when someone tells you something. You're always like, "if I need your advice on how to behave, I'll make sure to ask"...as if we have no place telling you something unless we get your permission ahead of time.

                      Yet 90% of your posts on this board are lecturing people about how THEY should behave. But god forbid someone do the same to you.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 10:56 am ET)
          1 6
          I was simply pointing out a fact. Our government consists mostly of lawyers including the President.

          Where you want to go with that fact is your business.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 11:09 am ET)
            5 2
            And???

            Did you read the article? If you think that a lawyer who defends a terrorist is, in turn, supportive of that terrorist's views, then, by your logic, you believe that lawyers who represent murderers, are murderers, lawyers who represent rapists are rapists, etc. Stupid logic.

            Cheney is doing this in order to attempt to sully the image of the DOJ. Why? Because she and her daddy and his pals who pushed the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq based upon LIES and who have ADMITTED to authorizing the crime of torture are scared to DEATH they are going to go to jail. They are attempting to discredit the DOJ which would be the body bringing such charges and prosecuting.

            Really simple logic.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:29 am ET)
              1 6
              Learning that they were wrong after they invaded Iraq doesn't make it a LIE. It makes them WRONG , like government often is regardless of which party is in control.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 11:39 am ET)
                5 2
                >>Learning that they were wrong after they invaded Iraq doesn't make it a LIE. It makes them WRONG , like government often is regardless of which party is in control.

                Oh really?

                "Following 9/11, President Bush and seven top officials of his administration waged a carefully orchestrated campaign of misinformation about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq."

                link
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (March 09, 2010 12:20 pm ET)
                  1 6
                  And not all falsehoods can be classified as lies. Sometimes something is wrong, but not a lie. That's why MMFA doesn't call stuff a LIE.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:33 pm ET)
                    5 3
                    Sorry, but these folks LIED, DellDolly.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (March 09, 2010 1:35 pm ET)
                        7
                      Thanks for once again showing how controlling your personal animus is.

                      It's not a good image - if you want to continue to bleed credibility, keep it up.

                      In most cases, these people did NOT lie. Yes, there were a few LIES. Most of the things that are quoted in the list the previous poster provided are NOT lies. The vast majority is not identifiable as lies. I know that there are some lies in there. My previous post didn't deny that, did it? Of course it didn't - that was YOUR kneejerk reaction that read that into it.

                      Really, you need to get rid of your personal animus towards me. It's misguided and baseless.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 1:40 pm ET)
                    3 2
                    >>And not all falsehoods can be classified as lies. Sometimes something is wrong, but not a lie. That's why MMFA doesn't call stuff a LIE.

                    Yes, I understand MMFA's decision and agree with it as sound. But that has nothing to do with the link I posted, which documents lies, untruths that were known to be so when uttered.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:32 pm ET)
                4 2
                Apparently, you have read any of the government reports showing that they "inappropriately manipulated" the pre-invasion intelligence.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:33 am ET)
              1 6
              And this may be a shock to you that most of the ethical lawyers will not represent rapists.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 11:41 am ET)
                5 3
                >>And this may be a shock to you that most of the ethical lawyers will not represent rapists.

                Yes, that is a shock to me, because it isn't true; it is one of your made-up facts.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:45 am ET)
                  1 5
                  You obviously don't know any lawyers. Or maybe you do hang out with sleazy lawyers. Or maybe you are one of them.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 11:47 am ET)
                    5 3
                    >>You obviously don't know any lawyers. Or maybe you do hang out with sleazy lawyers. Or maybe you are one of them.

                    Yes, that makes sense. I don't know any lawyers, but then, maybe I am one of them! Troll away, Jose2-4.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:57 am ET)
                      1 5
                      You are right, I knew there was no chance of you being a lawyer.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 12:05 pm ET)
                        3 4
                        You are wrong you are a joke
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by LKL (March 10, 2010 4:24 pm ET)
                        1  
                        I am one and you are completely wrong.

                        But I did love your insinuation that funnyman both doesn't know any lawyers and yet hangs out with them and is one himself!! Talk out of both sides of your mouth much?
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by Johaely (March 10, 2010 8:38 pm ET)
                        1  
                        and apparently you are one, right?
                        Report Abuse
              • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 11:57 am ET)
                6 1
                To me that sounds like an unethical lawyer. Our justice system is based on the presumption of innocence.

                Funny that you find the second amendment so clear and absolute yet you ignore the sixth.

                I wasn't aware that the Bill of Rights was a menu for us to pick which rights apply and in what circumstances.

                Jose4, another "Great American".
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:03 pm ET)
                  1 6
                  Did you see the movie "Devil's Advocate?"

                  In that movie a lawyer sold his soul to defend a rapist.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 12:09 pm ET)
                    3 2
                    This our legal system Innocence until proven guilty None People have been found guilty
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:57 pm ET)
                        6
                      You are wrong.

                      You are guilty until proven innocent, and innocent until proven broke.

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by foghornleghorn (March 09, 2010 12:15 pm ET)
                    4 3
                    Did you see the movie "Devil's Advocate?"

                    Did you see the movie "Dumb and Dumber"? Still trying to figure out if you're more like the Jim Carrey or Jeff Daniels character.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:49 pm ET)
                        5
                      Funny "Dumb and Dumber" is in your mind. That's a movie I like to forget I ever saw.

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 12:25 pm ET)
                    7 2
                    So were tossing the Bill of Rights and using old movies as legal precedent now?

                    Not surprised since we treat prisoners like they're the terrorist of the week on Jack Bauer's show.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 12:56 pm ET)
                      4  
                      Ha! I was thinking the same thing.

                      (Don't be offended, Jose4. He got you there. Using fiction to justify policy is absurd...)
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 1:04 pm ET)
                          3
                        Don't worry about me. I can take a good laugh.

                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 1:17 pm ET)
                          4
                        And the movie "Devil's Advocate" while fiction, does effectively illustrate why many ethical lawyers will not defend rape cases.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by foghornleghorn (March 09, 2010 2:05 pm ET)
                          5 1
                          Just like "24" effectively illustrates how to torture people. Not. Try again.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Conchobhar (March 09, 2010 5:10 pm ET)
                          3 2
                          So you would prefer that a man who is wrongly accused of rape be convicted, rather than have effective representation? Lovely.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by John Paradox (March 09, 2010 5:22 pm ET)
                            2 1
                            The point that I always consider is, if the wrong person is convicted, there's still a criminal out there, probably still committing crimes. (IIRC, that point was once made by 'Grissom' on CSI)
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 6:01 pm ET)
                                3
                              Trying the wrong person protects the guilty person.

                              You can't keep trying different people for the same crime until you get a conviction.
                              Report Abuse
                        • Author by magnolialover (March 09, 2010 5:33 pm ET)
                          4 2
                          Actually, the movie really has nothing to do with why ethical lawyers won't take rape cases (which is wrong, they will take them).
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:19 pm ET)
                          1  
                          "And the movie "Devil's Advocate" while fiction, does effectively illustrate why many ethical lawyers will not defend rape cases." - Jose24



                          Because the devil? What the-?

                          You're right. We should no longer allow any defense to a rape charge because a half-azz movie makes you scared. Well done, Josey.

                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (March 09, 2010 7:06 pm ET)
                    6  
                    Did you see the movie "Devil's Advocate?"
                    In that movie a lawyer sold his soul to defend a rapist.


                    "Devil's Advocate is a MOVIE, you moron!
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by LKL (March 10, 2010 4:26 pm ET)
                    1  
                    Did you see the movie "Devil's Advocate?"


                    Oh, it was in a movie!! I didn't realize you had such airtight evidence to back up your assertion. I take it all back, you are obviously correct and extremely well-informed.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:17 pm ET)
                    2  
                    Wow. Did you just use Devil's Advocate the movie as a defense of your position regarding American jurisprudence? Are you eleven years old?
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:34 pm ET)
                3 2
                WRONG! And I know many, many, many attorneys.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by JLP (March 09, 2010 1:24 pm ET)
                4 1
                Starting with "Most of the ethical lawyers" sound like a compelling argument already. You must be an expert on the legal profession, ethics, and the definition of most.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 1:41 pm ET)
                    4
                  You are right, maybe I should have used the word "respectable" instead of "ethical."

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by foghornleghorn (March 09, 2010 2:06 pm ET)
                    5 2
                    Maybe you should read the law, espcially the part about how every defendent is entitled to a competent defense no matter how heinous the crime.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 2:07 pm ET)
                        7
                      Maybe you should learn the law that Obama learned.

                      There is no justice.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 2:25 pm ET)
                        1 4
                        You are wrong prove it
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 2:42 pm ET)
                            5
                          Do you think Obama would have won the election if he used his law degree to defend rapists?

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by foghornleghorn (March 09, 2010 3:14 pm ET)
                            5 2
                            Do you think that if I eat veggies grown from Beck's Survival Seeds that monkeys will fly out of my butt?
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by magnolialover (March 09, 2010 5:34 pm ET)
                            5 1
                            Again, you appear to be missing the point that within our legal and justice system, everyone is entitled to competent legal counsel, regardless of the their alleged crimes.
                            Report Abuse
              • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:15 pm ET)
                1  
                That is simply ridiculous Jose. You clearly know nothing about the proud tradition of justice in this country. From John Adams to Clarence Darrow to Mark Geragos. Look them up. You clearly know nothing about them. You are obviously incapable of understanding the simple speech that Jim and Scout understood so well when Atticus explained it to them. I suggest you stop wasting our time with your inane posts and read up on the country you supposedly love.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by big_O_Other7415 (March 10, 2010 5:26 pm ET)
          1  
          Yes, this is what Jose should have said. However, he speaks truer than he knows. Why do you think every rightist from Kenneth Starr to Michael Mukasey is attacking Liz Cheney. Because, as lawyers, they have all defended almost indefensible people. So they could see themselves in the same bull's eye--and for once they are scared by McCarthyism and smears that might hit home with them.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by For.America.2600 (March 09, 2010 8:41 am ET)
      2  
      This guy is on the Daily Show tonight. I hope it is an embarassing night for him.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by shadetail.us1808 (March 09, 2010 9:55 am ET)
      3  
      This entire McCarthy-ist smear is nothing more than an underhanded attempt to burnish Dick Cheney's reputation. Liz Cheney started this because she doesn't want to see the rule of law come down like a ton of bricks on her dear old dad. And of course a Reich Winger like Thiessen would take the Cheneys' side of things.

      That's all there is to this smear. In fact, that's all there is to anything Liz Cheney's extremist organization does.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 10:51 am ET)
        3
      ...falsely suggesting that criticism of the witch hunt has come only from progressives...


      This is a gross manipulation of language. The adverb "only" does not apply here, especially in its syntaxical location.

      Just because Media Matters infers that he is referring ONLY to progressives does not mean that Thiessen implied it.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:01 am ET)
          5
        It doesn't matter which side you are on when extremists get involved. They will use what ever ideals are available at the moment and do what they want to accomplish their objectives.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 11:03 am ET)
          3 2
          HUH? I have NO idea what you just said.

          Jose, did you read the article? I'm betting not.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:14 am ET)
              6
            Of course I read it.

            Did you know that the first thing they teach in Harvard Law School is that there is no justice?

            I am providing facts to help you think for yourself.

            Report Abuse
        • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 11:58 am ET)
          4 1
          This coming from someone who is for the second amendment but against the sixth.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 11:03 am ET)
        2 2
        Did you read the article? If so, please point us all to the reference to anyone who you would identify as being from "the right." "Some defenders" doesn't count. He specifically points out folks from "the left" by name. He conveniently leaves out the list of 19 conservative lawyers who refute his entire defense.

        Please point the reference to anyone you would identify as being from "the right" in this article who is mentioned BY NAME.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 11:11 am ET)
            4
          Yes, I did read the article; however, I needn't point out any "right-wing" examples in Thiessen's article, as that was neither my nor Media Matters's argument.

          Media Matters simply said that Thiessen suggested that ONLY progressives were being implicated, which is not necessarily the case. A more accurate assertion would have been, "Thiessen implicates left by name, fails to implicate right by name."
          Report Abuse
          • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 11:20 am ET)
            3 2
            Nice try, but you fail.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 11:26 am ET)
                3
              Oh, I see now. Thanks for clearing that up.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:53 am ET)
                5
              Bintx,

              You cannot handle the truth.

              Schwartz clearly pointed out why MM is in a huff. Whoever wrote this crybaby article must have been desperate for a topic.



              Report Abuse
              • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 12:10 pm ET)
                1 4
                Prove it
                Report Abuse
              • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:27 pm ET)
                3 1
                Really? Schwartz simply said the SAME THING that he was chiding MMFA for . . . try critical though, jose2-4, it's a WONDERFUL thing.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 2:54 pm ET)
                7 2
                Again with the movies?

                Here's a line that might apply to you from one of my favorites.

                "He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot."
                Groucho Marx

                Report Abuse
              • Author by John Paradox (March 09, 2010 3:21 pm ET)
                4 1
                You cannot handle the truth.

                So, apparently Jose0 has seen A Few Good Men
                Report Abuse
          • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 11:45 am ET)
            4 2
            >>"Thiessen implicates left by name, fails to implicate right by name."

            Which is exactly what the MMFA has written. When you write "This is a gross manipulation of language. The adverb 'only' does not apply here, especially in its syntaxical location," you are simply throwing around fancy words like "syntaxical [sic] location" to make it sound like you have an argument. The syntax and the location have nothing to do with your point.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 11:53 am ET)
                6
              Thiessen did not suggest that "only" progressives were criticizing Cheney, therefore it has everything to do with my argument.

              Why the [sic]? Aww.... Is it because Dictionary.com doesn't have it? Better tell Angel Day and Sydney Smith.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:08 pm ET)
                  5
                I wonder if using a word that's not in dictionary.com is a TOS violation.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 12:10 pm ET)
                  2 4
                  You are wrong
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:20 pm ET)
                      5
                    Does that mean Schwartz is not going to be banned from MM?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by bintx (March 09, 2010 12:29 pm ET)
                      3 2
                      Like you have NUMEROUS times?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 1:18 pm ET)
                          4
                        Bush stinks.

                        That should keep me going for another day!



                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 2:23 pm ET)
                          1 4
                          You are a joke
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:23 pm ET)
                          1  
                          "Bush stinks.

                          That should keep me going for another day!" - Josey24

                          Yes, but have you seen "Parenthood"? That movie is a perfect example of why lawyers will not take divorce cases. You might end up mistaking a vibrator for a flashlight.
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by grmce (March 09, 2010 12:40 pm ET)
                1  
                I think the [sic] was because the word should have been "syntactical".
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 12:53 pm ET)
                    3
                  Could have been "syntactical;" Not should have been. They are, in fact, synonyms.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 2:04 pm ET)
                2 2
                >>Why the [sic]? Aww.... Is it because Dictionary.com doesn't have it? Better tell Angel Day and Sydney Smith.

                Which just proves my point. You are being pompous instead of just stating what you did above; syntax has nothing to do with your argument. Syntaxtical is indeed an adjective, but the OED lists it as rare; there is no reason for you to use the rare adjective, just as there is no basis for grounding your argument by noting faulty syntax (when there was none).

                I do agree with your point that Thiessen does not seem to single out progressives, a case you could have made simply, as I have already pointed out.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 2:36 pm ET)
                    3
                  By repositioning "only" the sentence could have made more sense: From "falsely suggesting that criticism of the witch hunt has come only from progressives..."

                  to:

                  "only falsely suggesting that criticism of the witch hunt has come from progressives"

                  And that, my fellow pompous friend, is syntax.

                  Also, there is a very good reason for using "syntaxical" rather than "syntactical," although they are my own literary preferences (which is all I care about for this purpose). "Syntactical locations" is, to me, awkwardly alliterative in its velar-plosive continuity. "Syntaxical locations" at least breaks it up and makes it flow better--again, to me. How's that for pompusness?

                  And yes, I recognize that if I had chosen the more commonly used word, I wouldn't be wasting my time defending myself...
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by funnymanpants (March 09, 2010 2:08 pm ET)
                3 2
                >>Thiessen did not suggest that "only" progressives were criticizing Cheney, therefore it has everything to do with my argument.

                By the way, since you enjoy using snark, and being pompous on top of it, you do realize that's a run-on sentence, right?
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 11:55 am ET)
                4
              funny, your posts are consistent with your name.


              Report Abuse
              • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 12:10 pm ET)
                1 3
                What you a joke
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 12:24 pm ET)
                    6
                  vhw,

                  Are you being paid by the post? If so someone is being ripped off.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 2:22 pm ET)
                    2 4
                    Prove it
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:26 pm ET)
                    1  
                    "vhw,

                    Are you being paid by the post? If so someone is being ripped off." - Josey24

                    I actually agree with you there, Josey.

                    But, have you seen the movie "Speed"? It is a perfect example of why lawyers will not take hit-and-run cases. They might end up under an unstoppable speeding bus, strapped to a scooter with Sandra Bullock.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by Lizinbklyn (March 09, 2010 11:01 am ET)
      4  
      Ultra liberal University Law Professor and President Clinton's best buddy, Ken Starr, blasted Liz Cheney and her 'ads' last night. He reminded viewers that John Adams defended 'da British' . .

      Liz Cheney = Mean Woman
      Report Abuse
    • Author by grmce (March 09, 2010 12:32 pm ET)
      4  
      Sadly the dills responsible for this shameful campaign have little knowledge of how the rule of law operates and the function of lawyers within that operation.

      Firstly and foremost, a lawyer is an officer of the court. Secondly, he or she is an advocate for his or her client. In the pretrial stage much of this advocacy involves ensuring that the law is applied correctly.

      In a jury trial the facts of the case are determined by the jury following examination and cross-examination of witnesses. The judge instructs the jury how to apply the law to the facts and they render a verdict based on their belief as to the facts. Counsel's role in advocating for the one party or the other has very little to do with the rights and wrongs of the beliefs of their client. Actually it's generally quite clinical and tedious - far from the excitement of your average television courtroom drama.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 1:32 pm ET)
          4
        A judge can instruct the jury all they want but that doesn't make it happen the way the judge wants it.

        And you raise an issue that I hadn't considered. This is drama television material with viewer ratings possibly up there with OJ's trial.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 2:22 pm ET)
          2 4
          Prove it
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 2:26 pm ET)
              4
            You prove it. It will give you something to do besides making two word comments.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by vhw28672478 (March 09, 2010 2:28 pm ET)
              2 4
              You prove it
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 2:40 pm ET)
                  4
                No, you prove it.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 2:43 pm ET)
                  4
                Just prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it.
                No one wants to be defeated
                Showin' how funky and strong is your fight.
                It doesn't matter who's wrong or right.
                Just prove it, prove it
                etc...
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 4:27 pm ET)
                  1 3
                  That was a special reply for vhw. He has three primary responses:

                  1. You are wrong.
                  2. You are a joke.
                  3. Prove it.

                  There are a few more but the sentences are less coherent.



                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:29 pm ET)
                    1  
                    That is true, Jose. But I would not be so quick to put yourself that far above him.

                    I mean have you seen "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"? It perfectly illustrates why an ethical lawyer would never take a case where a pothead is the defendant. They might end up stuck in a time machine with George Carlin.
                    Report Abuse
        • Author by grmce (March 09, 2010 8:41 pm ET)
          1  
          It may attract prurient interest from those hoping the defendant will crack a fruity and go on a rant.

          Other than that it would probably be as boring as bats#1t.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 1:02 pm ET)
        3
      More to the point:

      I actually have no problem with these guys defending the terrorists. They are simply doing what they feel is in their best interest, and it seems to have worked. Should the DOJ employ these people? I don't see why not. It doesn't follow that just because one defends a terrorist in court means they are sympathetic. They COULD be, but not necessarily.

      However, can Liz Cheney criticize the DOJ for doing so? I don't see why not, since she is simply doing what she feels is in her best interest, and it seems to have worked... She can demand that the DOJ fire these people all she wants, but that doesn't mean the DOJ should.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 2:44 pm ET)
          4
        Do you think Obama would have won the election if he used his law degree to defend rapists?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 3:32 pm ET)
            1
          Obviously that would depend on any individual circumstance. If he thought he had a shot at getting a verdict of innocence for an accused rapist, then yes. Publicity like that can be very good for an aspiring politician. If, on the other hand, the evidence overwhelmingly pointed to his guilt, then he might think twice considering the political fallout that would ensue. In either case, he would have made a calculated decision based on the consequences.

          It's dangerous to categorically state that no one should defend rapists, since not all accused rapists are actual rapists. See the Duke Lacrosse case. Kerry Sutton, defense attorney, is now running for District Judge...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 3:53 pm ET)
              5
            A verdict of innocence doesn't necessarily mean they are innocent. It only means there is insufficient evidence to convict. A defense lawyer's job would be to do their best to discredit a victim's claim. It is a very dirty business.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by worrierking (March 09, 2010 4:49 pm ET)
              4 1
              And a verdict of guilty doesn't necessarily mean they're guilty.

              The Innocence Project
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Ruby (March 09, 2010 10:28 pm ET)
              2  
              So you think that anyone accused of a crime should just be tossed in jail without a trial? You believe that someone accused of rape shouldn't have a right to legal representation and should just be locked up for life right away? You think any defense lawyer is a nasty, immoral person?

              I think you'd be singing a different tune if you ever got falsely accused of a crime.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by Ruby (March 09, 2010 3:47 pm ET)
        3  
        Liz Cheney has every right to criticize the DOJ, and everyone else has every right to point out how vile and beyond despicable he ad she and Bill Kristol ran was.

        It's a smear that encompasses men and women of our armed forces. Military lawyers have passionately and often successfully defended Gitmo detainees. Because they are committed to justice and liberty. I'm not sure when devotion to American values started making you sympathetic to terrorists. These lawyers have clearly demonstrated a strong commitment to our justice system, they have donated their time and effort, almost always pro bono and at the risk of their reputations, to defend our American justice system. And apparently being committed to the American justice system makes you sympathetic to Al Qaeda. I wonder what kind of justice system Al Qaeda believes in?

        One of the most absurd things about the ad is that it is asking viewers to make the assumption that every single person that's been detained at Guantanomo is a terrorist, and an al qaeda operative on top of that, which is certainly false. There ar eplenty of innocent people at Gitmo. It's just as absurd as Jose4 implying that all accused rapists are actually rapists.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Schwartz5534 (March 09, 2010 4:01 pm ET)
            5
          It's too bad Obama and Holder told everyone that KSM would be found guilty...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 5:19 pm ET)
              4
            That's what lawyers do. They state the outcome before the trial begins.

            Our government behaves more like lawyers than leaders because they are lawyers, and not leaders.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Conchobhar (March 09, 2010 5:20 pm ET)
            3 1
            Agreed. They folded in the face of right-wing attacks.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 5:46 pm ET)
              1 4
              I think they would do the same without pressure from the right-wing. It is in their training as lawyers to respond the way they have.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Conchobhar (March 09, 2010 6:04 pm ET)
                3 1
                I was agreeing with Schwartz. Your blanket slander of lawyers and your knee-jerk impulse to convict repulse me.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 9:48 pm ET)
                    2
                  I wasn't slandering lawyers. They are just doing their jobs.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 10, 2010 6:34 pm ET)
                    1  
                    You weren't slandering them? You said they were unethical if they defended someone accused of rape?

                    Let me put it in your terms - Keanu Reeves movies. It's like in "The Replacements" when Gene Hackman is making Keanu into a quarterback. He teaches him that there are principles at stake (the team) higher than himself (the individual). Now do you get it? These lawyers are providing a service to our country by defending the indefensible. It is not about their popularity it is about the rule of law being above any individual. They should be thanked for their service. Like the fans did with Keanu after they won the big game in "The Replacements".

                    Now do you get it? Or should I refer to "The Matrix"?
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by magnolialover (March 09, 2010 5:39 pm ET)
            2  
            He will be, mostly because the evidence already bears out that he has confessed to being said mastermind behind 9/11.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Conchobhar (March 09, 2010 6:05 pm ET)
              2 1
              True, but they should not have said it. A trial must not only be fair, it must appear to be fair, and they've undermined that.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Jose4 (March 09, 2010 9:52 pm ET)
                1 2
                It's a show trial. Fairness will have nothing to do with it. I will bet the trial will be scheduled at a time to deflect attention away from some other political move that will take away another liberty from the masses.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (March 10, 2010 11:32 am ET)
                  2  
                  First of all - bravo for figuring out how to post links.

                  Now, which liberties have been taken away from the masses?
                  Report Abuse
    • Author by sluggo (March 11, 2010 1:16 pm ET)
         
      This is all so much fun...

      Thiessen is trying to get his name in the news so he can sell more books.

      The Post is trying to highlight conservative editorials so they can sell more papers and keep getting ad money.

      Liz Chaney is trying to create an attack organization so she can get elected to office by rabid tea-baggers so she can loot whatever public funds she can get her hands on (learning from her Dad).

      Ideology is always trumped by Money

      Report Abuse

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