O'Reilly, Dobbs wrong that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes
On the March 9 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, host Bill O'Reilly and former CNN host Lou Dobbs suggested that undocumented immigrants "dodge taxes," with O'Reilly asserting that the notion that they pay taxes is "crap." In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office and the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants pay all kinds of taxes, including individual income, sales, property, and social security taxes.
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O'Reilly: "You know it's crap" that undocumented immigrants pay taxes
From the March 9 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
DOBBS: I think people have to understand clearly and unequivocally that this is not a substitute for border security, nor port security. We still have to survey what is happening with cargo being brought into this country. We still have responsibility for the security of our borders.
O'REILLY: Right. But it's getting better down on the southern border. I mean, that fence is working, and partially due to the economy, there are much fewer aliens. But, look, here's the big deal on this ID card: the money that would come in to the U.S. Treasury would be enormous because you can't dodge taxes anymore. You can't get paid off the books anymore --
DOBBS: Bill, what are you talking about?
O'REILLY: -- you know.
DOBBS: All of the open borders advocates -- all of the unconditional amnesty advocates say that illegal immigrants are already paying taxes.
O'REILLY: No, that's all talk. You know it's crap.
In fact, undocumented immigrants do pay taxes
CBO: "[I]mmigrants pay individual income, sales, and property taxes." In a December 2007 report detailing the impact of undocumented immigrants on the budgets of local and state governments, CBO found that "[a]ccording to available estimates," there were about "12 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States" at the time and "those immigrants pay individual income, sales, and property taxes." CBO further reported that "the IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year. Other researchers estimate that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes."
From the CBO report [footnotes omitted]:
According to available estimates, there are about 12 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States. Federal, state, and local governments spend public funds that benefit those immigrants, and those immigrants pay individual income, sales, and property taxes. Most available studies conclude that the unauthorized population pays less in state and local taxes than it costs state and local governments to provide services to that population. However, those estimates have significant limitations; they are not a suitable basis for developing an aggregate national effect across all states.
CBO also stated:
Data from the Social Security Administration (SSA) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) suggest that some unauthorized immigrants use false or fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers (SSNs) to satisfy paperwork requirements during the hiring process and that employers use those numbers to withhold federal, state, and local income and payroll taxes for employees. Workers who do not qualify for SSNs can use Individual Tax Identification Numbers issued by the IRS to file tax returns, make payments, and apply for refunds. Although there are no reliable data on unauthorized immigrants' rate of compliance with tax laws, the IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year. Other researchers estimate that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. For example:
The SSA assumes that about half of unauthorized immigrants pay Social Security taxes.
Several of the states whose estimates CBO reviewed used a model developed by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) to determine state and local taxes paid by unauthorized immigrants. ITEP assumes a 50 percent compliance rate for income and payroll taxes.
Researchers from the Urban Institute, the Migration Policy Institute, the Pew Hispanic Center, and the Center for Immigration Studies have assumed a 55 percent compliance rate for income, Social Security, and Medicare taxes.
As part of a larger study on migration, the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at the University of California at San Diego conducted a survey of unauthorized immigrants and found that, in 2006, 75 percent had taxes withheld from their paychecks, filed tax returns, or both.
SSA: "Among illegal immigrants, SSA actuaries currently assume that about half actually pay social security taxes." In a December 2005 brief by the Social Security Advisory Board on immigration, the section examining the impact of immigration effects on social security finances stated that "[a]mong illegal immigrants, SSA actuaries currently assume that about half actually pay social security taxes although they are very unlikely to collect benefits."
CBPP: "[U]nauthorized immigrants paid as much as $13 billion in Social Security payroll taxes in 2007." In a November 2008 piece summarizing a report on immigration by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, senior fellow Paul N. Van de Water wrote that, according to Stephen Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, "unauthorized immigrants paid as much as $13 billion in Social Security payroll taxes in 2007. About $1 billion in benefit payments were made based on unauthorized work."
From Van de Water's November 20, 2008, post:
The presence of unauthorized (undocumented) workers in the United States also has a positive effect on the financial status of Social Security. The earnings of unauthorized workers are less likely to be reported for tax purposes than the earnings of the rest of the population and even less likely to result in future benefits, according to Social Security's chief actuary. Although the magnitudes cannot be precisely determined, the actuary has estimated that unauthorized immigrants paid as much as $13 billion in Social Security payroll taxes in 2007. About $1 billion in benefit payments were made based on unauthorized work (for example, survivor benefits paid to U.S. citizens who were dependents of deceased individuals who had made payments into the Social Security system while performing unauthorized work). Thus, undocumented immigrants improved Social Security's cash flow by an estimated $12 billion in 2007.
The New York Times also reported in an April 2005 article: " 'Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes,' said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration."
Dobbs' long history of immigration misinformation
Dobbs has a long history of spreading immigration misinformation and conspiracy theories. He has routinely discussed the North American Union conspiracy theory, incorrectly claimed that undocumented immigrants drain social services and don't pay taxes, and repeatedly amplified the falsehood that undocumented immigrants are disproportionately violent. He has been an unrepentant purveyor of hateful attacks, fraudulently claiming, for example, that immigrants are spreading leprosy and seek to reconquer the southwestern United States. And in 2009, he legitimized the thoroughly debunked birther conspiracy theory concerning the authenticity of President Obama's birth certificate.

















Shoot man, in my city, the white menace from Britain are openly planning to recolonize the entire East Coast! They hold Red Coat Conventions. They insist we speak proper grammar in the king's dialect. And they won't stop with their manners and polite ways until they have installed a king and imposed aristocratic rule from sea to shining sea! It's a flippin' invasion! The British are coming! The British are coming!
Then you have the Italians with their mafia ties; the Russians with their mafia ties. Wonder how much tax those guys pay on their 'business' transactions? They clog our morgues with bodies costing us billions a year in publicly funded investigations, trials and incarcerations. Drug dealers, violent murderers, bad businessmen all of them!
Build a wall from Maine to the Keys! Deport those euro-trash jerks.
Now, a huge part of their contributions go towards Social Security, which they never see, and so the federal gov't makes out well, and local and state gov'ts suffer costs that aren't reimbursed.
But the fact remains that these folks pay all kinds of taxes, and get fewer benefits back than they pay out! Anything that omits that information is dishonest.
So, no, O'Reilly, it's not crap that these folks pay taxes. They pay more than they get back.
Facts. The only people who like them are those who can't be talked out of believing in them.
You fools simply sit here and take contrarian positions to whatever far more successful and popular FOX pundits have to say. The only way you get traffic is by mentioning the names O'Reilly or Stossel. Must be hard to face the numbers, the reality of your own insignificance....
I am not sure that I understand what all the concern is about the statement. Using CBO's information, if I am reading it right, about half of the undocumented workers are pretty much or completely "off the books." That means they are not paying taxes. The theory behind the ID card is that it prevents that. Best I can tell, that is exactly what O'R said. Hard for me to tell of Dobbs' second comment was or was not sarcasm.
On the March 9 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, host Bill O'Reilly and former CNN host Lou Dobbs suggested that undocumented immigrants "dodge taxes," with O'Reilly asserting that the notion that they pay taxes is "crap." In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office and the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants pay all kinds of taxes, including individual income, sales, property, and social security taxes.
MMFA never said ALL undocumented workers pay taxes, did they? They said that O'Reilly and Dobbs were wrong when they said that they don't pay taxes.
DOBBS: All of the open borders advocates -- all of the unconditional amnesty advocates say that illegal immigrants are already paying taxes.
O'REILLY: No, that's all talk. You know it's crap.
O'Reilly said that it's crap that "illegal immigrants are already paying taxes." But it's not. They are. That doesn't imply that ALL of them are. He suggested that NONE of them are.
It's what MMFA was pointing out here -
On the March 9 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, host Bill O'Reilly and former CNN host Lou Dobbs suggested that undocumented immigrants "dodge taxes," with O'Reilly asserting that the notion that they pay taxes is "crap." In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office and the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants pay all kinds of taxes, including individual income, sales, property, and social security taxes.
And, you failed to EVER address that topic. Not once.
That's the topic here - that O'Reilly and Dobbs were both wrong with their assertions that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes. The fact is that they actually pay MORE in taxes than they get back in benefits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, it furthers the conservative agenda to baselessly smear undocumented immigrants to claim that they don't pay taxes!
Sorry, my opinions are generally highly-thought of here. I know, that stinks for your side. Too bad, so sad.
But thanks for failing to address the issues being raised, and solely making an ad hominem attack that doesn't refute anything I said. I love it when people like you dig your own graves.
It's the same with anything the government does: You force regulation on guns, making it harder for normal people to get them (the bad guys will get them on the black market). You force regulation on ID cards, making it harder for normal people to get a job (the bad guys will still get jobs) do you see where this is going?
I don't know if the ID card is the answer or not. But, I am willing to consider new option when it comes to hiring of immigrant labor. The companies that hire them must be forced to carry the load of regulation and penalties. There is no other way to make any form of rules stick.
As for taxes, most of the studies I have seen show that we get more in taxes from illegal immigrants than they receive in benefits.
There are already penalties for hiring illegal immigrants.
Please refer me to these 'studies' that you cite.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/business/19illegals.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opinion/02wed3.html?ref=opinion
"The immigration bill before Congress would cost the federal government roughly $18 billion over the next decade, largely because of the huge costs of additional border control and law enforcement measures, according to an analysis released yesterday by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.
The analysis found that over the next decade, newly legalized immigrants and guest workers would generate $48 billion in additional tax and Social Security revenues, while using about $23 billion worth of tax credits and social services. Thus, the newly legal immigrant population would contribute a net of about $26 billion over the decade, the report said."
That is from the Congressional Budget Office if you are too lazy to look these things up for yourself.
Also, I have purchased several handguns. Nothing difficult about it all. Unless you are a felon or have a history of domestic abuse, that is. What is it that you found so difficult? The paperwork?
Besides, taxes wasn't the issue I pointed out, neither was that example. You went completely off-topic with your entire post. The issue that I pointed out and you dodged completely was that criminals will get their way, while regulations make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get theirs. Keep dodging, it's kind of funny in a sad sort of way.
Sweet fancy moses...what a novel concept.
Based on the above info from mmfa about the millions of illegal aliens that pay taxes...it should be an easy start to identify those and deport them and prosecute the employers that hire them.
The illegal aliens didn't all get here overnight...so we can't deport them all overnight...but we can sure as hell get started.
It can be done though. Deny lucrative government contracts, tax subsidies and tax breaks to companies that pay poverty wages. You could cap the top earners in a company at 25 times the lowest earner. It builds incentive to pay higher wages from the bottom up if the top exec has to give everybody a raise in order to give himself a raise.
But get a load of RO down thread. Blaming immigrant workers for low wages. As if they force employers to drive wages down. As if immigrants set the wage and sign the checks.
As for your other contention to cap salaries and get government in the wage setting business, well, thankfully that is so far out left wing socialist nonsense it will never be implemented. Try hard work and setting yourself apart from your fellow employees to earn promotions to make more money, instead of bringing down someone elses salary. We reward excellence, not punish it.
Kennedy did just that in the 60's to help civil rights activists win living wage campaigns, so don't try to tell me doing the right thing for America is far left socialism.
And don't try to tell me some CEO like Howard Schultz is 300 times more excellent than anybody else in his company.
I would rather work for a company with an aggressive CEO who has unlimited earnings potential and is aggressively working to expand the company, grow the company so he can make more money, because that is good for my job and my future with that company. If I work for a CEO who has his salary capped by some government regulation, then his aggressiveness turns to passiveness and his eagerness turns to apathy. Why shouldn't it? And as a result my job may be in jeopardy if that passiveness and apathy means a loss in sales and revenue.
I am better off working for someone who wants to make a ton of money.
the nfl, meanwhile, in addition to their salary cap, has revenue sharing, which basically means that while jerry jones brings in huge dollars for the cowboys, clubs like the rams can skate by doing little or nothing to improve their lot since they can count on a cut of that cowboys jack...
Japan currently has salaries capped. Do you consider Japanese execs apathetic?
It has worked in the past and has to happen again in the name of fairness. History shows us that societies with such monumental economic maldistribution, like we have today, never make it very long.
When executives of Starbucks and MacDonalds and Wal-Mart live like the aristocracy that we fought a revolution to get out from under, it is morally repugnant that a person works a full-time job and still qualify for food stamps and medicare, etc. Anyway, family is more important to me than working 70 hours a week.
I just see social injustice and point it out. You can call whatever you'd like.
I believe in fairness.
That explains everything about your inability to understand the lives of people who actually have to work for a living.
Get a job.
If you can't refute the points, just say so. To go on about my personal life is pretty pathetic.
Doesn't matter. I'm talking about social justice, economic fairness and making work pay. You know it's a disgrace that a person should work two full-time jobs and still qualify for public assistance because his earnings are below the poverty line. Meanwhile some guy who sits on his duff all day, shirking his responsibility to the people who put him on their shoulders and made him great, lives like a king.
We tossed out the last king who tried to tell us he was better than us.
This isn't the America we grew up in. We are in a global market now, it's totally different.
Thats right while the saleries of CEO's has grown exponentially the wages of those who work for wages for a living has gone down or remained the same(which in effect means diminished). The point is your scenario of high CEO saleries mean everyone shares is a trickle down fantasy the gap between rich and poor has grown wider and workers jobs security is a thing of the past. Your greed is good philosophy is not working,less and less workers are able to share in the American dream while CEO's not only receive exorbantant paybacks they do so now not only from the sweat from our labor but with our tax-dollars in the form of bailouts. You can take your trickle down and put it where the sun don't shine.
CEO pay doubling and tripling in a generation and the working class pay scale remaining stagnant, in the end, is bad for all of us. I don't necessarily see it as a simple concern for fairness. I think the concern is that when there is a vibrant middle class/working class that can sustain a family on a single income the entire country is better off. I think we are actually the country that originally proved this. Slipping back into a feudal system just for the sake of capitalism won't help anyone except maybe bring Teddy Roosevelt back to life to smack us all around.
Funny you talking about honorable and fairness while trying to justify CEO's being paid 400x's more than their wage workers. Divide and conquer ain't working with me I stand with the workers of all nationalities.legal and/or undocumented.
If I was an American worker by your definition I wouldn't want your support. No thank you.
what facts are you talking about? I haaven't seen you present anything but the accusations and rants of nativist and greedy capitalist, and if that is the path you think the American worker should take it is no wonder labor finds itself in the fix we are in. With friends like you we don't need anymore enemies. Anyone who sweats and bleeds like me on the production line is my brother or sister regardless of language,nationality,gender,or race.
i live in the northwest where we depend on cheap labor to get the crops off. no one else will do it. it pays well but is hard work. so there are good and bad things about illegal immigration.
i live in the northwest where we depend on cheap labor to get the crops off. no one else will do it. it pays well but is hard work. so there are good and bad things about illegal immigration.
I swear, it's hilarious when you guys sabotage your own arguments!
So, you are not totally about empowerment and against victimhood - it just depends which side of the argument you are on.
Speak for yourself, not all of us wallow in what we don't have, we get on with it.
It would be a catastrophic nightmare. Thankfully it's fringe nutcase stuff that will never come to fruition.
but you know what this media matters site needs?... somebody needs to throw a chair...
Also, it is not only Hispanics that come to this country illegally.
A friend (unfortunately deceased) who was second or third generation Hispanic was the last person I heard use the term 'wetbacks'.
A couple of years back, Arizona passed laws that specifically targeted employers who hire UDA's, since we've had a lot of problems with 'immigration'. Here's the latest information on one case (note also it's a CIVIL case, not criminal).
Sheriff Arpaio in Arizona has taken your stance...he enforces the immigration laws and catches all kind of grief.
So just whose e-mails are they?
On orders from Maricopa County, a third-party vendor has archived an unknown quantity of e-mails written by Maricopa County Sheriff's Office personnel since August 2008.
The Sheriff's Office says the e-mails belong to them, and they should have been deleted from an emergency backup system after 28 days.
County management says the e-mails are county property. And the messages play into two federal cases, a racial-profiling civil lawsuit against Sheriff Joe Arpaio and an FBI criminal investigation into Arpaio's office, so they refused to turn them over to the sheriff.
A Pima County judge will try to sort out ownership in an emergency hearing Wednesday morning.
The issue first arose in February when the Sheriff's Office claimed in the civil lawsuit that e-mails concerning Arpaio's controversial "crime-suppression operations" had been deleted from the system. The federal judge imposed sanctions against the office.
But last week, county officials announced they had recovered the e-mails - though actually, they had been archived.
The news caught the Sheriff's Office by surprise.
On Friday afternoon, Sheriff's Commander Bob Rampy confronted county technology managers and demanded the e-mails be turned over to him, first by e-mail and later in person. County officials turned Rampy down.
County lawyers filed an emergency motion for an order of protection against the Sheriff's Office with the Pima County judge, who is handling an ongoing case between the county and the sheriff over management of a county law-enforcement computer database.
In that motion, attorney Julie Pace, who represents the county, revealed that not only were some of the e-mails subject to the racial-profiling suit, but that other, unspecified e-mails also had been subpoenaed by a federal grand jury investigating Arpaio's office. The two sets of e-mails may overlap, but county officials will not reveal the contents of the latest subpoena.
Behold the magical wonders of the free (from law enforcement) market.
Taxation without representation.
Hmmmm... That sounds familiar. Where did I hear that before?
He just went from singing the blues, picked up the tempo a bit to a 4/4 beat and now expects Fox's audience to dance to it.
Same Lou, same song, different beat.
Unclaimed FICA continue to be deposited in the FICA trust fund while unclaimed income taxes continue to be deposited in the U.S. Treasury. More on the inner workings of the SSA and my tour in the IRS as relevant topics and issues are raised in this blog. Thank you for setting up this blog so persons with first-hand experience working in the federal government can let you outsiders in on the real facts, figures and practices of public service and public programs.
The level of stupidity and ignorance that people willingly embrace never ceases to amaze me.
Our economy would really be in a sh*thole . .
Randy