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Cato's Tanner twists facts in NY Post op-ed on Dems "twisting arms" for health care votes

March 11, 2010 12:26 pm ET — 135 Comments

Referencing HBO's "The Sopranos," Cato Institute senior fellow Michael Tanner wrote in the New York Post that Democrats "are willing to use every trick in the book to get this [health care] bill passed." However, many of Tanner's allegations of suspect tactics by Democrats are not supported by the facts.

Tanner baselessly claimed Dems "considered holding up Brown's seating"

From Tanner's March 10 op-ed:

Nor were the Obamans willing to let a little thing like election laws stand in the way. They rewrote Massachusetts law to allow for an appointed senator to hold office for several months, hoping to get the bill through before the special election that Scott Brown ultimately won. Their plans spoiled, they even considered holding up Brown's seating to let the appointed senator continue to vote on health care -- until public outrage forced them to back down.

Tanner provided no evidence to support claim that Dems "considered holding up Brown's seating." As The Washington Post reported on February 4, Brown was sworn into office "a week earlier than expected," after he "asked that his election be certified as soon as possible so he could participate in votes scheduled before then." Media Matters senior fellow Eric Boehlert noted in January that an ABC News article similarly forwarded Republican speculation that Democrats would "delay seating Scott Brown," without providing any evidence.

Citing dubious evidence, Tanner claimed Dems have shown "willingness to ignore congressional rules"

Tanner cited a "failure to appoint a 'conference committee' to negotiate differences between the House and Senate bills" and reconciliation as examples of "an unprecedented willingness to ignore congressional rules." From Tanner's March 10 op-ed:

And, of course, there has been an unprecedented willingness to ignore congressional rules -- from the failure to appoint a "conference committee" to negotiate differences between the House and Senate bills, to their current plans to use the reconciliation process to bypass a Republican filibuster.

Conference committee not required. Riddick's Senate Procedure states that the House or Senate can "request a conference" if it does not accept "the amendments added to the bill by the second House." The document further notes that "any differences in the two passed versions must be compromised" before a bill becomes law, and since reconciling the bills "by considering amendments between the Houses" can be "cumbersome," some bills "end up in conference."  

Hill aide reportedly said skipping conference committee "is pretty standard." The Huffington Post's Sam Stein reported on January 4, "The decision to skip formal conference negotiations -- which was first reported by The New Republic's Jonathan Cohn -- is not, it should be noted, the rarest of parliamentary maneuvers. Hill aides say it often happens with major or contentious pieces of legislation (though not apparently in this current Congress). 'This is what we normally do,' said one Hill aide, 'it is pretty standard.'"

Reconciliation process is part of congressional budget process. The budget reconciliation process is defined by the U.S. House Committee on Rules as "part of the congressional budget process ... utilized when Congress issues directives to legislate policy changes in mandatory spending (entitlements) or revenue programs (tax laws) to achieve the goals in spending and revenue contemplated by the budget resolution."

Republicans repeatedly used reconciliation to pass former President Bush's agenda. Republicans used the budget reconciliation process to pass Bush's 2001 and 2003 tax cuts as well as the 2005 "Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act." The Senate also used the procedure to pass a bill containing a provision that would permit oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (The final version of that bill that Bush signed did not contain the provision on drilling.)

Reconciliation has repeatedly been used to reform health care. On February 24, NPR noted that many "major changes to health care laws" have passed via reconciliation. These measures include COBRA, which allows laid-off workers to keep their insurance coverage, and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.

Tanner falsely suggested Rep. Matheson has only recently signaled willingness to support health care reform

Tanner: "No sooner had Rep Jim Matheson (D-Utah) suggested that he might be willing to switch his vote and support the latest version of ObamaCare than his brother was nominated for a federal judgeship." From Tanner's March 10 op-ed:

Expect the tactics to get even dirtier now.

Those who support the president can expect favors. No sooner had Rep Jim Matheson (D-Utah) suggested that he might be willing to switch his vote and support the latest version of ObamaCare than his brother was nominated for a federal judgeship.

Matheson long preferred Senate proposals to House bill, which he voted against. On July 21, 2009, Matheson outlined "some of the substantial changes required before he could vote for" the House health care reform bill and "said the suggested changes represent what will be a common-sense, bipartisan proposal that shares many of the features under review by the U.S. Senate in their committee negotiations." In a November 6, 2009, press release, Matheson "said he will vote against HR 3962" because it does not ensure "that the health care system is secure, stable and affordable." The press release further noted that "Matheson said he is encouraged that a bipartisan, budget-deficit-neutral, cost-lowering bill is on the table in the Senate." After Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid introduced health care reform legislation to the Senate on November 18, Matheson reportedly said the Senate bill "is going in the right direction," while noting that he was "unsure whether he would vote for" the Senate plan.

Matheson expressed support for provisions in Senate bill and Obama proposal that differ from House bill. The Salt Lake Tribune reported on December 22, 2009, that Matheson "backs the tax on so-called 'Cadillac plans,' especially after analysts with the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office said it is one of the most powerful ways to slow health care inflation." Obama's proposal includes a version of the tax; the House plan does not. Moreover, The New York Times reported on October 28, 2009, that Matheson "prefers nonprofit member-run cooperatives, rather than a government plan." The Associated Press noted on February 22 that "Obama did not include the government-run insurance plan sought by some Democrats. He kept the Senate approach, which gives Americans purchasing coverage through new insurance exchanges the option of signing up for national plans overseen by the federal office that manages the government health plan available to members of Congress. Those plans would be private, but one would have to be nonprofit." The Salt Lake Tribune also reported on November 5, 2009, that Matheson proposed "drop[ping] the nationwide health insurance exchange called for in the [House] bill in favor of state-based exchanges." As the AP noted on February 22, "liberals hoped Obama would go with a national exchange like the House bill did, but he stuck with the Senate's state-based approach."

Rep. Matheson's office and White House have called the "selling judgeships" smear "ridiculous" and "absurd." Politico's Chris Frates reported that Matheson's spokeswoman "called the question 'patently ridiculous,' saying there was no deal made between her boss and the president that guaranteed Scott Matheson's nomination in exchange for Rep. Matheson's vote." Frates later noted that a "White House official calls the charge 'absurd.' 'Scott Matheson is a leading law scholar and has served as a law school dean and U.S. Attorney. He's respected across Utah and eminently qualified to serve on the federal bench,' the official said." Right-wing media pushed the smear that Scott Matheson's nomination was made to influence his brother's vote on health care without providing any evidence for the claim.

Utah Republicans support Matheson, deny "vote buying." According to Politico, Sen. Bob Bennett's (R-UT) spokeswoman, Tara DiJulio, released a statement regarding Scott Matheson's appointment on March 4, saying, "Sen. Bennett has heard of all kinds of pressure being applied and offers being made to Democrats for votes on health care, but Scott Matheson's nomination is not one of those because it has been in the works for a long time." Utah's Deseret News reported that Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) congratulated Obama on his selection and praised Scott Matheson as "an excellent nominee." A March 5 The Salt Lake Tribune article noted that "pretty much everyone who knows the Mathesons" have "called the claim simply absurd" and reported that Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) "said he knew Scott Matheson was going to be the nominee more than a month ago and disputes any idea that Obama was trying to get a vote for the nomination."

Tanner misleadingly cited "special deals" Dems used to pass health reform

Tanner: Dems "bought votes with pork and special deals." From Tanner's March 10 op-ed:

Whether or not you believe former Rep. Eric Massa's bizarre accusations of locker-room confrontations and conspiracies to drive him from office, there is no doubt that the Obama administration and its congressional allies are willing to use every trick in the book to get this bill passed.

They've already bought votes with pork and special deals -- the "Louisiana purchase" ($300 million to bolster that state's Medicaid program, which swayed Sen. Mary Landrieu); the "Cornhusker kickback" ($100 million to Medicaid there, sweetening the pot for Sen. Ben Nelson), and Florida's "Gator Aid" (a Medicare deal potentially worth $5 billion, a hefty price for Sen. Bill Nelson's vote). Plus the millions for Connecticut hospitals, Montana asbestos abatement and so on.

"Louisiana Purchase" was necessary Medicaid fix. Contrary to the claim that funding for Louisiana in the Senate health care bill is a "trick ... to get this bill passed," the funds are urgently needed to fix the state's Medicaid problems, which are a result of Hurricane Katrina; moreover, many of the state's Republican lawmakers say the fix is necessary, despite criticizing Landrieu for securing it in the bill.

PolitiFact: The "Gator Aid" provision was included in Senate Finance Committee bill and would have benefited seniors in multiple states, not just Florida. Contrary to Tanner's suggestion that a provision shielding Medicare Advantage enrollees living in certain areas was the "price for Sen. Bill Nelson's vote" on the final Senate health care bill, PolitiFact noted that "Nelson's provision wasn't a last-minute addition. The Medicare Advantage exemption was included in the health care reform bill that passed the Senate Finance Committee in October." PolitiFact also stated that the provision would not only benefit seniors in Florida, but also "in Oregon, New York, New Jersey and California."

Obama proposal removes "Cornhusker kickback," "Gator Aid." Obama's February 22 proposed changes to the Senate health care bill would "[e]liminat[e] the Nebraska FMAP provision and provid[e] significant additional Federal financing to all States for the expansion of Medicaid."  On March 2, Obama stated, "[M]y proposal does not include the Medicare Advantage provision ... which provided transitional extra benefits for Florida and other states."

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    • Author by shaggles (March 11, 2010 12:37 pm ET)
         
      Why do we never hear about Republican arm twisting? You can't honestly tell me it doesn't take some arm twisting to get every single Rep to vote No on pretty much every bill the Dems propose.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 12:44 pm ET)
           
        It happens there too. It's what parties do to get their stuff passed, they have too, and the members of Congress know it. So they bargain for what they want and in return give someone what they want. It's no big deal, for anyone to suggest that one party has some monopoly on it is just silly. Basically they cancel each other out.

        Besides, if the legislation is worthy, who cares how they get it passed. That should be the focus, not the machinations behind the scenes.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by shaggles (March 11, 2010 12:52 pm ET)
          2  
          I agree. I wonder why the media only seems to think it's note worthy when Dems do it?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 1:05 pm ET)
               
            Well because right now it's the Dems in charge and it's their legislation. All the Republicans seem to be at the moment are in the mood to oppose. I'm sure the media covered their arm twisting when they held all the cards.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by rumpleteasermom (March 11, 2010 1:58 pm ET)
              3  
              I'm sure the media covered their arm twisting when they held all the cards.
              You have the internet at your disposal. Can you back up that claim with a link to, oh, I don't know, any news story that says such a thing?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:00 pm ET)
                1 4
                You have the internet at your disposal as well. You look it up. If you think your Democrats are nothing but poor pathetic victims of the mean old media, grow up.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by MadRiver Jack (March 11, 2010 4:24 pm ET)
                  1  
                  You have the internet at your disposal as well. You look it up.
                  That would be appropriate if rumpleteasermom had asserted that "the media covered [Republican] arm twisting when {Republicans] held all the cards. However, you were the one who made the claim. It is your burden to prove, right ON.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:02 pm ET)
                      2
                    I could care less what the damn media covers. I think there were stories about how well Bush kept his party in line. I was certainly aware of it. The real story is that the Democrats are not good ENOUGH at arm twisting. When G-Dub got rid of Lott and put Frist into place, Republicans did not dare step out of line. They kept their troops behind their agenda every time.

                    I am not saying I want the Democrats to perform exactly as G-Dub did. Clearly, his agenda was proven to be a horrible mistake. However, you do have to admire his ability to force his own party to vote with him. Obama could take a lesson in using his political muscle from Bush. You would NEVER see Bush waste a year trying to include the other party, the political losers into the debate while they trash him at every turn.
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by roycebo (March 12, 2010 9:56 am ET)
              1  
              Actually, the press was astonishingly compliant, since they got no access to the White House unless they were, during the years when the right wing of the Republican Party held all 4 branches of government and showed themselves to be outside the range of normality in their tactics. If you get into office in order make yourselves and your friends rich, we now see that it is no longer theory that perhaps you continue to do so in office instead of governing. I see no reason not to twist a few arms of the craven, in order to actually govern rather than in order to enrich one's class.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by angels4light (March 11, 2010 4:52 pm ET)
        1  
        The hive mind needs no arm twisting. All know the position they are to take the instant the leader of the hive thinks it. This is evident in the way Senate Republicans vote, and right-wing focused commentators talk.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 12:38 pm ET)
      2 6
      The gullibility, or disingenuous party loyalty, by MMfA always amazes me with stuff like this. They act as though the Democrats never arm twist or politic when it comes to getting legislation passed. And because they don't up and admit to it there is no proof and therefore they, the sainted Democratic party, would never, never.

      The party that can influence and use their power will do it. If they don't, they are stupid. Paybacks, vote trading, backroom deals, it happens all the time in politics.

      For MMfA to pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 12:42 pm ET)
        5 7
        No, this article by MMFA does not imply, not in any way, that Democrats don't negotiate and sometimes even twist arms while trying to get legislation passed.

        That's a strawman argument intended to derail the thread away from the actual allegations made by Tanner that were false and baseless!

        There is no proof that the things listed above actually occurred. None at all. MMFA made no blanket assertions about Democratic tactics at all. If they had, then RightON would have a point. Since they didn't, all he has is a strawman argument.

        Please don't feed the troll.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 12:46 pm ET)
          3 6
          Any idiot that thinks this is a conspiracy theory is a troll.

          If you don't want me fed, stop doing it yourself.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by bludog1 (March 11, 2010 1:14 pm ET)
          1 6
          And how do you feel about "deeming" legislation is passed by decree? The spotlight is on the time around because the arm twisting is so blatant, so aggressive, so brazen (Nebraska, La, Florida deal, etc.) and so abhorred by the majority of Americans. The dem argument that people like the pieces, may have some currency, but I am reminded of Ford Motor Company's new product -- the Edsel -- and how it got positive feedback when market tested (folks liked the parts). When it was introduced, it was a flop and nearly sunk the company.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 1:58 pm ET)
            4 1
            arm twisting is so blatant, so aggressive, so brazen

            No, blatant arm-twisting is threatening a congressman that the party will provide a challenger for his son's primary race if he didn't vote for the Republican pharmaceutical bill.

            No, brazen arm-twisting is Boehner passing out bribes on the floor of the house.



            Report Abuse
            • Author by bludog1 (March 12, 2010 9:55 am ET)
                1
              Lets don't redefine things: arm-twisting - persuasion by the use of direct personal pressure; "some gentle arm-twisting produced the desired result"; "no amount of arm-twisting will get me to agree" persuasion, suasion - the act of persuading (or attempting to persuade); communication intended to induce belief or action (from Wikipedia).
              Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:05 pm ET)
            1  
            Please. That is such a weak attempt to paint the Democrats as somehow worse than Republicans. "So aggressive, so brazen" - PLEASE. It has been over a YEAR and they are still debating every nuance of this bill. They were still trying to get Republicans on board last week. Try again and come with some substance. You never even got the Edsel out of the garage on this one.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 12:13 pm ET)
              1  
              Here's part of what Senator Harry Reid said to Sen Mitch McConnell.

              After watching these tactics for nearly a year, there is only one conclusion an objective observer could make: these Republican maneuvers are rooted less in substantive policy concerns and more in a partisan desire to discredit Democrats, bolster Republicans, and protect the status quo on behalf of the insurance industry.

              I've seen the same pattern by people who downrate my posts for no good reason and attack me with ad hominems when they can't defeat my arguments with facts.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:07 pm ET)
          1 2
          I do not understand why the left would be ashamed to admit there is arm-twisting going on. There had damn well better be. Or else these politicians are frankly too weak to perform their duties. We need to find some Democrats with some backbones if they are not cajoling, threatening, challenging, arm-twisting their own party into line. This is how politics on the big stage is played. Always has been. And if the Democrats are able to be scared away from being the hard-azz when necessary because the weak-kneed media and righties like bludog make feeble attempts to paint them as too tough and mean for America, then it's time to find some new Democrats.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 6:54 pm ET)
            1 4
            The left isn't ashamed that some arms are likely being twisted.

            MMFA and posters like me don't like that Tanner lied, distorted and omitted relevant data when discussing what's going on WRT health care votes.

            Not sure how you missed that - you might want to re-read the headline and then the article if necessary, to get a better grasp on this.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 12, 2010 2:46 pm ET)
                 
              I understand the point. But, my feeling is they should not be disputing that they are twisting arms or being tough with their own side.

              The only facade that the Republicans have been able to maintain in the public eye is that they are stronger than the Democrats. If the Republicans now want to play the weak, victim - I say let them. In fact, don't only let them but play into it. Let yourselves be the Sopranos pushing through their own legislation.

              The Dems were elected with a pretty clear purpose of getting rid of the Republican created disaster. If you have to be Christopher Moltisanti with these incompetents to make it happen, I think the American people are OK with that. In fact, I think you will gain respect if that becomes the caricature. G-Dub never lost support amongst the American people because he forced through every piece of legislation he wanted. He lost the American people because his legislation and agenda turned out to be a disaster. America respects power.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 11:27 pm ET)
                   
                No one IS disputing that they are twisting arms. They are disputing what Tanner has said is going on, because it's NOT GOING ON!

                As I ALREADY said to you,

                The left isn't ashamed that some arms are likely being twisted.

                MMFA and posters like me don't like that Tanner lied, distorted and omitted relevant data when discussing what's going on WRT health care votes.

                Not sure how you missed that - you might want to re-read the headline and then the article if necessary, to get a better grasp on this.
                Report Abuse
    • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 12:39 pm ET)
      4 5
      My, my, my, yet another baseless conspiracy theory! Who would have imagined such a thing?

      When you can't argue against something with the facts; when your best argument is one made up entirely or almost entirely with baseless allegations of wrongdoing, then what you're showing is that you don't have a LEGITIMATE argument against the thing you don't support.

      That means this is purely politically partisan behavior. They want Democrats and President Obama to fail. Not because his ideas are wrong, or dangerous, but because they are against Obama and Democrats in kneejerk fashion.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 12:52 pm ET)
          5
        I don't want Obama or the Dems to fail. I want his wrong and dangerous ideas to fail, because I disagree with them. It's nothing pesonal.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 12:56 pm ET)
          6 2
          What you think is wrong and dangerous is, in reality, not wrong and dangerous.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 1:21 pm ET)
            2 9
            I think socialized health care is dangerous and will take away more of our rights.

            I think his amount of spending is dangerous because it will destroy our economy.

            I think his voting record of abortion is dangerous because it destroys lives.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 1:33 pm ET)
              5 2
              What is being proposed is not socialized health care.

              His spending was necessary to bring us out of the recession. Ask any qualified economist.

              Obama is not pro-baby killing.

              Try again.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 1:55 pm ET)
                2 7
                Obama is not pro-baby killing? You really are misinformed aren't you.

                The spending is not necessary to bring us out of the recession. The recession is becoming worse.

                Try again.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 1:59 pm ET)
                  4 2
                  Then tell us, how is Obama pro-baby killing?

                  The recession is NOT getting worse. Make a note of it.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:24 pm ET)
                    2 6
                    Obama pro-death: http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm

                    Where are you getting your information from about the recession? I'm just curious.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 2:36 pm ET)
                      4 1
                      Went to your link. Looks like lots of information on abortion, but nothing that says Obama is pro-death.

                      Believe me, Obama is NOT pro-death. That's why he's pushing for health care reform.

                      My recession info came the Associated Press:

                      Americans regained more of their shrunken wealth last quarter, mainly because the healing economy boosted stock portfolios. But the gain was less than in the previous two quarters.

                      http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100311/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_net_worth
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:48 pm ET)
                        2 6
                        You went to the link and you didn't see how he was pro-death? Wow.

                        In 1997, Obama voted in the Illinois Senate against SB 230, a bill designed to prevent partial-birth abortions.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 2:52 pm ET)
                          5 2
                          You apparently don't understand why he voted against it. Here ya go - educate yourself:

                          "...which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion."
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:58 pm ET)
                            2 7
                            .....Still waiting on how you think he isn't pro-death in regards to his voting record on abortion based on that article.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:02 pm ET)
                              5 2
                              ....Still waiting on those racist left wing signs AND more examples of public outrage beyond the screaming town hallers and teabaggers.

                              I posted Obama's reasoning for his vote. He's not pro-death. I'm not going to change your mind. So you can just continue to be deluded and comfortable in your belief that our president is pro-death.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:05 pm ET)
                                2 7
                                Like I said foggy, you have to leave the basement to find public outrage about the admin. It's not on your world, the internet, it's out there at your next town hall meeting.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:10 pm ET)
                                  5 2
                                  If you can't provide any examples beyond the screaming town hallers and teabaggers, I'll just assume it's because there aren't any.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:15 pm ET)
                                    2 5
                                    You mean examples from the internet? There is a much larger world out there than the internet, foghorn. If you're too naieve to know that, then you fight right in here along with all of the left lemmings.

                                    Like I said, go to your next town hall meeting.
                                    Report Abuse
                          • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:59 pm ET)
                            1 6
                            Your explanation says it all. I don't agree with his reason behind voting against it.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:07 pm ET)
                              6 1
                              So you want doctors to go to jail for providing a legal medical procedure?

                              You're obviously anti-abortion. I'd be more upset at Bush and the Republicans because they held all 3 branches of government for 6 years, campaigned on pro-life issues and got votes from the pro-lifers and did NOTHING about saving fetuses, er, babies.

                              Any outrage over that?
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:09 pm ET)
                                1 6
                                I am anti-murder. And I've always been outraged at issues like that.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:16 pm ET)
                                  1 3
                                  Thumbs down for.....being against murder? Congrats dolly.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:21 pm ET)
                                    4 1
                                    Thumbs down for...equating abortion with murder.

                                    Got it?
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:24 pm ET)
                                      2 4
                                      Thumbs down for not recognizing abortion is murder.

                                      Got it?
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:30 pm ET)
                                        3 1
                                        As always, you're free to not have an abortion. And you're free to lobby your friends and family not to have one. And you're free to donate to pro-life candidates. And you're free to vote for pro-life candidates. And you're free to adopt fetuses, er, babies that may become aborted, er, murdered.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:41 pm ET)
                                          2 3
                                          Not human?

                                          [http://itsmypulp.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/fetus.jpg]
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 3:53 pm ET)
                                            4 2
                                            I said nothing about human. You're not going to get me started in an argument about abortion because anti-abortion people will never, ever, have their minds changed.

                                            The Republicans laugh at the pro-life crowd because all they have to do is say a few platitudes about the sanctity of life and the money/votes start rolling in.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 4:01 pm ET)
                                              2 4
                                              Look fog, people who are pro-abortion refer to babies at 'fetuses' and not 'babies' or 'human'. that's how they justify the killing.
                                              Report Abuse
                                            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 4:02 pm ET)
                                              2 3
                                              They can laugh all they want. They'll get theirs in the end.
                                              Report Abuse
                                  • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 4:50 pm ET)
                                    3 5
                                    Abortion is legal.

                                    Murder is illegal.

                                    Therefore, a legal abortion is NOT murder.

                                    This is not rocket science.

                                    Top that off your implication that we're NOT anti-murder, and your outright assertion that Obama isn't anti-murder, and you'd have BINGO.

                                    Then add in a bogus personal attack on ME, suggesting that I had downrated your post (I have now, but that's 90 minutes after you made THIS post complaining about other thumbs down), and you have a double BINGO!

                                    But beyond that, you got nothin'.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 4:54 pm ET)
                                        4
                                      Lol, what are you talking about?
                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 5:11 pm ET)
                                        4
                                      Ok I read what you wrote again and figured it out: As always, you miss the point.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 6:57 pm ET)
                                        2 4
                                        Of course I did - since you provided an example of how I missed the point, I now see the error I made...

                                        Oops, that's right, you didn't provide ANY examples to back up your allegation that I missed ANY point. That means that all you did, when confronted with an argument you couldn't refute in any way, you resorted to a personal attack.

                                        Good job. Please, keep it up, so that you have no credibility here. I love it when people like you dig your own graves.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 11:40 am ET)
                                            2
                                          I'M the one digging a grave? That's hilarious. The thing is: I don't care.

                                          I guess I'll spell it out for you, dellydense:

                                          Life begins at conception. Abortion is immoral.

                                          So now with your line of thinking: If my wife cheated on me, I would say "oh honey, that's ok.. it's legal."
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 11:37 pm ET)
                                              1
                                            Life DOES begin at conception.

                                            It's still not murder, since they aren't a PERSON. And, until they can survive outside the womb, they can NEVER be a person.

                                            So, no, you haven't spelled out anything to me, nor can you, since your argument has a massive hole in it. A fetus is NOT a baby until it leaves the womb and can sustain life with help from medical personnel and food, clothing, shelter and love. A non-viable fetus, one that can't sustain life outside of the womb, even WITH intensive medical intervention, never BECOMES a baby. They remain a fetus, a non-viable fetus.

                                            So, they're never a person.

                                            And since abortion is legal, and murder is the illegal taking of a person's life, abortion can't be murder.

                                            You're free to think that abortion is immoral. Go for it, believe that all you want.

                                            But morality is NOT a fact. It's an opinion. As such, you may hold the opinion that abortion is immoral, or that having an affair is immoral. But neither is a crime. An abortion isn't murder, and breaking one's marriage vows isn't a crime like breaking a business contract is.

                                            So, when one actually does an ACTUAL, VALID analogy, you STILL don't have a leg to stand on.

                                            And yeah, you're the one digging your own grave. You make assertions about MY behavior and MY arguments, but you don't back them up with ANY evidence whatsoever. Me, on the other hand - I don't MAKE an assertion without backing it up. I don't TALK about stuff I'm not sure about. I don't make baseless personal attacks like you and your ilk do.

                                            So yeah, you're digging your own grave with your ludicrous behavior. Please, don't wise up. Keep doing it. You're incredibly entertaining, and you hurt your own political position with America when you and your ilk behave this way. I hope you guys NEVER LEARN!
                                            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:08 pm ET)
              1 1
              I think your ability to grasp simple concepts like socialized medicine is unknown. Come back when you figure it out and we can have an adult discussion.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 2:30 pm ET)
            3 5
            Of course it's not.

            As I said below, until he comes up with some actual, factual examples of how it's wrong and dangerous, he's just spouting talking points.

            And then he proved that all he was doing was spouting talking points!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:49 pm ET)
              3 3
              Dolly, you don't even know what a talking point is. And I'm not going to dignify any of your posts with a response that has to do with any issue.

              Although I will reply to you saying things like: "Go troll somewhere else." or something to that effect.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 5:00 pm ET)
                2 6
                Thanks for providing evidence of your accusations towards me - oops, you didn't.

                Thanks for providing evidence of your allegations against Obama - oops, you still haven't done that either!

                You said

                I think socialized health care is dangerous and will take away more of our rights.

                I think his amount of spending is dangerous because it will destroy our economy.

                I think his voting record of abortion is dangerous because it destroys lives.


                Calling the healthcare reform options being considered "socialized health care" is a bogus talking point. It's not socialized medicine - not even close.

                Suggesting that Obama's wise decision to spend money to keep our nation from entering a second Great Depression was dangerous is a talking point that's been debunked countless times. Our nation would be hurt a lot worse by that Great Depression than it ever could be by deficit spending in the face of a recessiion!

                And no abortion (other than later term abortions that save a mother's life or health) destroys a "life". Abortions before a fetus is viable outside the womb don't take a life. They aren't murder. They take a potential life, but not a life. Abortion is legal. So, saying that Obama's record on rejecting the Illinois law on late term abortions was voting in favor of taking lives in a gross distortion of reality, and is a talking point.

                Please, continue to hemorrhage credibility by failing to provide any examples of the things you baselessly assert and then baselessly accusing others of your own sins and omissions! Please.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 5:46 pm ET)
                  2 3
                  Dolly, I (and billions of other people across the world) have a different viewpoint on abortion. You miss the point completely.

                  You still don't know what a talking point is. You still are a troll. You talking about credibility is beyond laughable.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 7:03 pm ET)
                    3 3
                    I am not talking about MY viewpoint. I ONLY talked about "facts".

                    A non-viable fetus cannot survive outside the womb. Therefore, they aren't a person and can never become a person once they leave the womb. They remain a fetus.

                    Abortion is legal. Murder is the illegal taking of a life. Therefore, abortion is not murder.

                    You're talking about OPINIONS. I'm not. I'm talking about facts.

                    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. You're entitled to hold the opinion that abortions are wrong, but you're not entitled to claim that it's the murder of a person when an abortion happens. That's factually incorrect, and not a matter of one's viewpoint.

                    And thanks for once again providing a lot of examples of how I simply spout talking points, and for providing examples of how the things you said above, things I proved weren't right, aren't talking points.

                    Oops, that's right, you didn't provide any examples.

                    Why, that must make you a troll, and your accusations against just more examples of YOU making personal attacks!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 11:41 am ET)
                        3
                      Lol, facts: "A non-viable fetus cannot survive outside the womb. Therefore, they aren't a person and can never become a person once they leave the womb. They remain a fetus."

                      What are you, a robot?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 11:46 pm ET)
                          1
                        Again, yes, those are facts. Known facts.

                        A viable fetus can leave the womb and become a baby that can survive outside the womb. Sometimes that baby needs intensive medical intervention. At other times, all they need is food and shelter and love.

                        A non-viable fetus won't ever become a baby if it leaves the womb while it's still non-viable. Non-viable means that it can't survive outside the womb, and so it never becomes a baby/never becomes a person.

                        They aren't a baby. They remain a fetus.

                        These are facts.

                        Now, many mothers and fathers are going to mourn that loss. People who WANTED a baby are going to mourn the loss of the fetus. They are going to be sorry that the fetus didn't turn into the baby they had imagined that they were going to bring into the world.

                        But those are feelings. Not facts.

                        Women who want to have abortions, on the other hand, are GLAD that they aren't going to have that baby. They aren't saddened when the fetus is removed from their womb using a legal medical procedure. They're relieved.

                        Morality is a feeling, an opinion.

                        The FACT that abortion's not murder, and the FACT that not everyone has the same opinion that YOU have, and the FACT that it's not a baby if it leaves the womb when it's non-viable? Those are all FACTS.

                        This is not rocket science. Facts are nothing to laugh at. Too many people like you exhibit disgust with facts that refute your "opinions". Too bad, so sad. It's your "opinion" that abortion is murder. Facts say that it's not. So it's NOT!

                        Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. If you had an "opinion" that the world was flat, it wouldn't be valid, since the fact is that the world is NOT flat.
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 1:10 pm ET)
                      1 2
                      And another thing: A human being is an individual member of the human species, homo sapiens. A new and distinct individual of the human species has its beginning when sperm and egg unite to form a genetically distinct individual, which immediately begins to develop fully until maturity. (Age 21 or so?) That individual retains its unique genetic makeup, distinct from both parents, from conception until death. That's also "FACT" for you, since you seem to be real hung up on what's right under your nose.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 11:55 pm ET)
                          1
                        Yes, a POTENTIAL human being begins at conception.

                        But even then, many of those fail to implant. And many of those that do implant fail to thrive.

                        But they aren't a "human being" until they can survive outside the womb. Until they can do that, they're an embryo, then a fetus. It's not a human being that expelled from a woman's womb when it looks like the picture that was posted above. It's still just a potential human being. It is human LIFE, but not a human being. These are FACTS.

                        See, I UNDERSTAND ALL this. You're not the first person I've ever argued this subject with, you doofus. I'm just better at this than you are, and I have FACTS on my side. All YOU have are your feelings and YOUR morality and your opinion.
                        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 12:58 pm ET)
          2 7
          It's much easier to diffuse criticism of Obama by saying it's all personal, then they don't have to really defend the issues. Same thing as when someone here can't defend their positions they haul out paid troll, personal animus, thread derailment, and order people to stop feeding the troll. It's all they got.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 1:02 pm ET)
            5 7
            Again, this is just a personal attack on me, rather than an actual attempt to discuss the issues. Please don't feed this troll post. I actually did REFUTE the argument of the previous poster, as WELL as discuss the actual topic under consideration.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 12:59 pm ET)
          5 6
          Sure it is. That's why you presented all the reasons that his ideas are wrong and dangerous.

          Oh wait, you didn't present a single reason why they are wrong and dangerous.

          Just like this author of the Op-Ed didn't do either!

          Until you provide some actual reasons, when all that one provides are bogus conspiracy theories, the only conclusion a reasonable person can come to is that you HAVE no legit reasons.

          This isn't rocket science.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:57 pm ET)
            1 3
            Go troll somewhere else, Dolly. If someone legitimate would have asked me why, I would have told them.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 5:01 pm ET)
              1 6
              Someone legitimate DID ask you, two legit people in fact, and you failed to accomplish that task. It was a MASSIVE FAIL, in fact.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 5:53 pm ET)
                1 3
                I think someone could keep you going all day long!

                Like I said, I'm not going to respond to you in the way that you'd like. Although I doubt any man would ;)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 7:07 pm ET)
                  2 6
                  Thanks for again proving that when you can't refute an argument, all someone like you can and will do is make ad hominem personal attacks.

                  I love it when you respond this way. Please, keep it up. You think I don't fully appreciate when your ilk proves themselves incapable of making a legit argument to defend their positions? We think it's terrific when you fail so massively like this. Why do you think we hang out here at MMFA? To revel in the massive fails that Beck, Limbaugh and posters like you participate in every day!

                  You thinking that I'm disappointed in your failings is really hilarious!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 11:43 am ET)
                      3
                    I'm just starting a little competition with myself to add up and see how many thumbs down you can get with your replies.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (March 13, 2010 12:01 am ET)
                      1 1
                      From you and all the sockpuppet trolls? Like that means something?

                      Like you think your personal attacks (how many thumbs down I can get IS a personal attack) mean something about ME!!! LOL. All they mean is that YOU were unable to debate the facts, and so YOU resorted to a baseless personal attack! It says NOTHING negative about me. In fact, it says that I frustrate your side so much that you stalk me, trying desperately to infuriate me and discredit me because I am so dangerous to YOUR efforts here!

                      When the ratings one receives are because of what one wrote, and NOT who a poster is, then it means something. When the ratings are solely about who one is, then they are meaningless about the poster's qualifications and quality, and they ONLY speak to the person who rated someone else based upon who they are!!!
                      Report Abuse
      • Author by bludog1 (March 11, 2010 1:29 pm ET)
        1 2
        You are aware of the Slaughter Solution, right?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 1:34 pm ET)
          1 2
          Exactly. No vote from the House members, just Pelosi's good buddy Slaughter "deeming" it passed. Well that isn't technically arm twisting, that is just hitting you over the head with a 2x4 and say "Take it, you better like it!"
          Report Abuse
      • Author by bludog1 (March 11, 2010 1:36 pm ET)
        1 3
        I cited facts. You characterized them as "baseless allegations of wrongdoing." The polls have pretty conclusively signaled that they do not like the process or the timing, and they do not like package as a whole. Those same polls seem to say that the majority likes parts though.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 2:40 pm ET)
          2 6
          You "cited facts"?

          My post wasn't a reply to YOU, so how can you claim that you "cited facts" that I then characterized as "baseless allegations of wrongdoing"?

          This is the post that you're replying to here. Next time, get a clue.

          My, my, my, yet another baseless conspiracy theory! Who would have imagined such a thing?

          When you can't argue against something with the facts; when your best argument is one made up entirely or almost entirely with baseless allegations of wrongdoing, then what you're showing is that you don't have a LEGITIMATE argument against the thing you don't support.

          That means this is purely politically partisan behavior. They want Democrats and President Obama to fail. Not because his ideas are wrong, or dangerous, but because they are against Obama and Democrats in kneejerk fashion.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by bludog1 (March 11, 2010 6:14 pm ET)
            1 2
            It sounded so similar to the canned attacks you have launched at med that I figured I must have contributed to your angst some how or another. Excuse the response.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 6:52 pm ET)
                3
              But remember: this isn't rocket science, and you have to get a clue. Oh yeah, and your argument was 'debunked' and/or 'demolished.'
              Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 7:09 pm ET)
              1 6
              Yeah, right.

              YOU have a kneejerk reaction that makes no sense, and it's somehow my fault?

              Please, keep proving that you haven't got a clue. Please.

              Tanner made baseless allegations of wrongdoing on the part of Dems. MMFA refuted his allegations. Therefore, he believed in a conspiracy theory that had no evidence to support it.

              Like I said.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by bludog1 (March 12, 2010 9:59 am ET)
                1 2
                You are so predictable! Same words, no matter what you are responding to. Must get boring at some point to write them; sure is boring to read them.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (March 13, 2010 12:21 am ET)
                     
                  It's not a flaw in MY posting that your side keeps throwing up personal attacks - personal attacks, like, well, THIS one by you, where you baselessly allege that there's something wrong with ME because YOUR side keeps making personal attacks that I continue to point out!

                  If you don't like reading them, tnen don't. But don't expect me to cut you and your personal attacks any slack. You don't deserve it.

                  Please keep providing evidence that you don't have a clue. Please. You're the one who wholly mischaracterized what I originally said as somehow being a response to something that YOU said. You were wrong with that kneejerk response. You were also wrong with the premise you asserted. So, instead of admitting you were wrong, you made a personal attack, then another, then another, still unwilling to admit to YOUR errors!

                  Please, don't stop on my account.

                  Now, you SHOULD stop making a fool of yourself, if you had half a brain. But clearly you don't.
                  Report Abuse
    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 12:41 pm ET)
        6
      "--until public outrage forced them to back down."

      The reason why I think this is BS is this statement alone. Since when has public outrage forced the Dems to do anything?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 12:54 pm ET)
        4 1
        If you're referring to the teabaggers, they represent a distinct minority consisting largely of opportunists, idiots and racists. They just yell louder and get more press coverage than others do.

        See any main stream news outlets report on the thousands that protested at the conference of health insurance execs? I didn't.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 1:04 pm ET)
            5
          I'm not referring to the tea party movement. The tea-partiers are hardly the tip of the iceberg when it comes to public outrage at our current administration and at the past democrats. And pigeon-holding all tea partiers to that demograph shows your blatant ignorance or denial. You are in the minority, foghorn. You need bizarre, misinforming web sites like this to justify your existance (and to keep the rest of bored Americans entertained when they have a slow day at work).
          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 1:12 pm ET)
            4 2
            public outrage at our current administration and at the past democrats

            The only outrage I've seen by the public is the teabaggers and town hall idiots shouting down sick people. What other group(s) are you referring to?

            And FYI, the vast, vast majority of teabaggers are lily white. Do we really have to post the racist teabagger signs yet again?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 1:19 pm ET)
                6
              Haha, those are the only people you've seen? On which left-wing network are you referring to?

              Have you ever been to a town hall meeting?

              "Do we really have to post the racist teabagger signs yet again?" --you're joking right? Do I really need to post the racist left wing signs? There are always going to be fringe people out there, foggy. In any group.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 1:36 pm ET)
                4 1
                Have you ever been to a town hall meeting?

                Nope, but I've seen numerous "highlights".

                Cue racist #1: "This isn't the country I remember!!"

                Cue idiot lady #2: "Get the government out of my medicare!!"

                Cue angry mob shouting down the very ill woman sitting in a wheelchair.

                And yes, you do need to post the racist left wing signs.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 1:56 pm ET)
                  1 6
                  And those numerous highlights are in no-way cherry-picked by your favorite media outlets such as MMFA right?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 2:03 pm ET)
                    4 1
                    Nope, just watched the UNEDITED video.

                    Forgot about racist town hall lady #2: "I want my country back!!"

                    Still waiting for the racist left wing signs. Could you have posted a false dichotomy?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:15 pm ET)
                        3
                      I have something even better:

                      [http://www.moonbattery.com/shout_racist.jpg]
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 2:49 pm ET)
                        3 4
                        How is this even better? Foghorn didn't "shout" RACIST. He provided concrete examples of racism.

                        You're the one who's made bogus allegations of racism on the left without backing any of them up.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:52 pm ET)
                            4
                          Yeah, concrete examples of racism and then attributed it to everyone who went to town hall meetings. But that would be perfectly fine fare for a standard race baiter.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:07 pm ET)
                    1 5
                    Forget it unknown1, Foghorn is just a left wing hack who purposely uses fringe elements in the opposition to argue against because it's a helluva alot easier than addressing substantive points and real issues.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:17 pm ET)
                        2
                      I can see that. He thinks a few fringe protesters cherry-picked by the MSM represent all conservatives.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:19 pm ET)
                          2
                        Your sign above said it all.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 2:21 pm ET)
                        3 1
                        Nope, I didn't say that a few fringe protestors represent anything. Thanks for playing.

                        Remember, not all conservatives are racists, but most racists are conservative.

                        Still waiting for those racist left wing signs.

                        Still waiting for other examples of public outrage you stated above.

                        Still waiting...
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:29 pm ET)
                          1 3
                          Here's some left wing racism for ya (since you're too absurdly blunt or ignorant to think that left wing racism isn't a reality): http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=31008

                          Go to a town hall meeting and you'll experience public outrage at our current administration. Theres a lot out there in the world foggy. Outside of the classroom and outside of mom's basement.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 2:45 pm ET)
                            4 6
                            Oh, you make me laugh out loud. You've failed in EVERY attempt to justify ANY rancor towards Obama or Democrats, and you failed again with this posting.

                            The racists in the Democratic Party from 1860 to the 1950's and 60's became Republicans. To try to taint the current Democratic Party because of the type of people who WERE in the Democratic Party and are NOW southern Republicans is ludicrous.

                            The rightwingers who are toxic to this site are the ones sitting in their basements and detached from reality, as your failure to actually provide any evidence of your accusations shows.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by foghornleghorn (March 11, 2010 2:45 pm ET)
                            3  
                            Wow, that link is a hoot. David Horowitz? That hurts your credibility.

                            And that last paragraph is revisionist history at its best.

                            “return black Americans to their Republican Party roots by enlightening them about how Republicans fought for their freedom and civil rights and are now fighting for their educational and economic advancement.”

                            Back in the days of LIncoln, the progressive party was the Republicans. They have NOTHING in common with today's Republicans.

                            You really need to try harder.

                            Still waiting for more examples of public outrage beyong the angry town hallers and the teabaggers.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:03 pm ET)
                              1 2
                              You'll find em if you go to one, foggy. Not everything is on the internet.
                              Report Abuse
                          • Author by Johaely (March 11, 2010 7:24 pm ET)
                            1  
                            FYI Democrat≠Liberal.That is not proof of racism from the left. just racism from the democratic party during the early 60s, when most racist belonged to the democratic party.
                            Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:40 pm ET)
                      2  
                      "Forget it unknown1, Foghorn is just a left wing hack who purposely uses fringe elements in the opposition to argue against because it's a helluva alot easier than addressing substantive points and real issues." - righton

                      Yeah, if only he could be reasonable like unknown and accuse Obama and the entire Democratic party of wanting to murder babies.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by John Paradox (March 11, 2010 2:10 pm ET)
                3  
                Have you ever been to a town hall meeting?

                Not the ones you refer to, but I used to cover Town Council meetings (and other Public Events*). Had people come in with signs and tried to shout down the speakers and councilpeople, the Chief of Police would have politely escorted them out.

                *see: Sahuarita, AZ.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 2:32 pm ET)
                    4
                  You know there's a lot of that going on here in MN. A lot of our leaders are liberal democrats, and the taxes are making us leave. I'm not sure how they think taxes make things better.

                  I can personally vouch for this because I am going to be re-locating with my family out of state in a few months for many reasons, one being the high taxes.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:39 pm ET)
                    1 3
                    Same for CA. The legislature has been run by liberal Democrats for years, taxes going up every time you turn around. Now the state along with LA and SF, both run by liberals, are in fiscal crisis with no money. And people are leaving to Nevada and other states. Great way to run things.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:36 pm ET)
                      3  
                      Oh, come on. That is an extreme oversimplification of California. If they were really run by exclusively liberals they would have raised taxes, right? Their problem is they are run by the actual people themselves. Rather than by representatives.

                      They allow the people to put anything they want on a ballot initiative - or whatever they call it. And the reason you want representatives is because if you put every vote to the people they vote for more and more services and lower and lower taxes, unicorns in every park, and free BJs on every corner.

                      You mix that with the fact that they have what I would consider extreme term limits so none of their politicians know how to get things done and you have a disaster on your hands. I am sure there is plenty of blame that can go towards the liberals in California, but it is clearly more complicated than blaming San Fran liberals.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:04 pm ET)
                      4
                    Thumbs down for.......?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 3:19 pm ET)
                      1 2
                      Unknown1, Wear your thumbs' down as a badge of honor, I do.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 3:26 pm ET)
                          1
                        Well, at least I could get an explanation. Foghorn was good enough to give me one at least. We disagree on issues, but at least he's civil.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:26 pm ET)
                       
                    You know there's a lot of that going on here in MN. A lot of our leaders are liberal democrats, and the taxes are making us leave. I'm not sure how they think taxes make things better.

                    I can personally vouch for this because I am going to be re-locating with my family out of state in a few months for many reasons, one being the high taxes. - unknown

                    I think you mean to say maybe less people are coming to Minnesota? The population is still growing there. Your personal anecdote not withstanding.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 11, 2010 6:55 pm ET)
                         
                      As much as I love debating with you mike, I have to go close the store. We'll continue this tomorrow.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 11:30 am ET)
                         
                      I meant what I meant. The population may be growing, but there are still fed up people like myself who are leaving.

                      There are a lot of people out there who just don't care.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 12, 2010 2:00 pm ET)
                        2  
                        Yes, I cannot think of a reason that Minnesota may need more tax money. It's not like their bridges are collapsing or anything.
                        Report Abuse
    • Author by rwmacdonald2091 (March 11, 2010 12:42 pm ET)
      4 1
      Cato's Tanner twists facts in NY Post op-ed on Dems "twisting arms" for health care votes.

      Oh no, say it ain's so!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (March 11, 2010 1:03 pm ET)
      2 2
      The sage liberal advocate, Michael Moore, has some advice for the democrats...Do Something or else.

      -- I just feel like the Democrats are – they're in for an ass-whooping of Biblical proportions in November if they don't get off the dime and do the job they were sent there to do. I mean that. I mean, it - don't they see that?...

      "They could avoid it by having the courage of their convictions and doing what the Republicans do when they take power," Moore said..."They walk into Congress with both guns blazing and they say, 'We were sent here to do a job,' and then they do the job" --

      Do something? We'll see...

      Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 1:08 pm ET)
        1 3
        Yep. And they better get their act together. They have basically squandered a year and a half of huge majorities in Congress and are nearing the cusp of a far less powerful majority come November, if the predictions are correct. They have a hard time governing, they always have.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 1:31 pm ET)
          3 6
          Oh, now he's a concern troll, only out to "help us". Just like Mitch McConnell and Karl Rove are concerned about us ruining our chances in November.

          Please don't feed the trolls. They must be very desperate to distract us from the actual topic here with all their activity!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 1:35 pm ET)
            1 2
            Follow your own advice Sue, stop feeding then.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 2:52 pm ET)
              2 6
              "Feeding the trolls" is making repeated posts in reply to what they say, not just one.

              Get a CLUE!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (March 11, 2010 2:53 pm ET)
                4 2
                You just did it again simpleton.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Double Ds (March 11, 2010 3:59 pm ET)
                  3  
                  STOP IT!!!
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 5:06 pm ET)
                  1 5
                  Actually, NO, I didn't "do it again", since I didn't do it the FIRST TIME, troll.

                  Debunking a false story, then calling for others to NOT follow that troll down the path, is NOT the same as feeding a troll.

                  Now, I've explained this to you 3 times in this thread alone. How many times do you want to prove you're ignorant AND a troll?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Double Ds (March 11, 2010 6:13 pm ET)
                    2 1
                    Three times is the same as multiple isn't it?

                    right ON nailed you on the simpleton comment.

                    I imagine you like to whine a great deal, don't you?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DellDolly (March 12, 2010 2:48 am ET)
                      1 3
                      Actually, no, three responses to 3 separate posts is NOT the same as 3 separate replies to the SAME post.

                      The person I see WHINING is YOU.

                      And RightON hasn't nailed anyone on these boards in the six months I've been posting!

                      I didn't repeatedly post to the same post in the way he described.

                      Massive fail on your part. Which banned troll did you USED to be?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by null1fy (March 12, 2010 11:44 am ET)
                        2 1
                        Aren't you the banned troll?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by DellDolly (March 13, 2010 12:27 am ET)
                             
                          Nope. Never been banned. Always have had this screen name. Went through the same authentication process that every new poster goes through. Used the one main email address I've used since I got online full time at home in 1993.

                          A banned troll who comes back here? Clearly what some of you guys are. Not me though.

                          I don't try to derail threads. I don't try to make baseless personal attacks as a way to avoid addressing the points raised in the post I'm replying to. I'm willing and able to address the topic that MMFA raised in the article they created. That's not the behavior of a troll, much less a banned one. In fact, that's the exact opposite of a troll.

                          Trolls try to derail threads. They make baseless personal attacks and push baseless conspiracy theories. They defend the indefensibled and deny the undeniable.

                          This is not rocket science.
                          Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (March 11, 2010 5:37 pm ET)
          2  
          I agree. They have clearly squandered a year attempting to debate and compromise with people who accuse them of colluding with doctors to execute old people. Move on and get something done Democrats. You were voted into power for a reason.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (March 11, 2010 1:29 pm ET)
        4 6
        And once again, the troll has nothing to say about the actual topic. One has to assume that's because he can't refute what MMFA says, and because he's therefore trying to derail the thread. Please don't feed this troll.

        Here's the topic.

        Referencing HBO's "The Sopranos," Cato Institute senior fellow Michael Tanner wrote in the New York Post that Democrats "are willing to use every trick in the book to get this [health care] bill passed." However, many of Tanner's allegations of suspect tactics by Democrats are not supported by the facts.

        Tanner baselessly claimed Dems "considered holding up Brown's seating"

        Citing dubious evidence, Tanner claimed Dems have shown "willingness to ignore congressional rules"

        Tanner falsely suggested Rep. Matheson has only recently signaled willingness to support health care reform

        Tanner misleadingly cited "special deals" Dems used to pass health reform
        Report Abuse
        • Author by DellDolly (March 13, 2010 12:29 am ET)
             
          And, notice, the troll NEVER actually addressed the topic being addressed here by MMFA, despite the fact that I provided a synopsis above.

          The troll being referenced? Wesley the Weasel, of course.
          Report Abuse

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