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Right-wing mark debate over AZ immigration law with racially charged rhetoric

April 28, 2010 12:51 pm ET — 136 Comments

Numerous right-wing media figures have rushed to defend Arizona's controversial new immigration law, often by employing racially charged rhetoric, imagery, and stereotypes. Many have also embraced racial profiling while promoting the legislation.

Right-wing media defend AZ law with racially charged rhetoric

The Washington Times dubs immigration protestors "the Tequila Party," filled with "[a]ngry, hateful, violent, extremist liberals." In an April 28 editorial, titled, "Angry, hateful, violent, extremists, liberals," The Washington Times said of those participating in recent protests of Arizona's immigration law: "Imagine a group of angry demonstrators toting swastika-festooned protest signs calling politicians Nazis, shouting obscenities and racial remarks and throwing rocks and bottles at police officers sent to keep order. ...This group of liberal rowdies has been dubbed the Tequila Party."

Drudge highlights Bloomberg article with unrelated image of what appear to be Latino gang members. The Drudge Report linked to a Bloomberg article, which reported that the Mexican government issued a travel warning for its citizens visiting Arizona, and illustrated it with the following image, which does not appear in the article:

Beck uses bag of "pot" and bottle of prescription pills to illustrate the "difference between legal and illegal immigration." On the April 26 edition of Fox News' Glenn Beck, Beck said "let's define the discussion we're about to have" on immigration. Beck pointed out that "there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration" and as visual aides, used a bottle of prescription allergy medicine to represent legal immigration, and a bag of "pot" to represent illegal immigration.

Kilmeade: "Can you blame the people of Arizona for giving the cops this power? ... How many surgeons" do we "find in those tunnels by the border?" During an April 28 "fair and balanced" panel discussion on the law, Fox & Friends co-host Brian Kilmeade asked leading questions and made many racially-charged remarks, including asking what is "wrong with" "giving police officers in Arizona the ability to go up to an individual -- if they have reasonable cause to think they're here in this country illegally?" He also referenced "the drugs that are coming across the border... the kidnapping that's happening there... the killing that happened to a rancher a month ago," and asked "Can you blame the people of Arizona for giving the cops this power?" After guest Richard Florida made the point that high-skilled immigrants "look at how we handle low-skilled people, they look at how we handle illegals," Kilmeade responded: "You know how many surgeons we find in those tunnels by the border?"

Buchanan: "Arizona acted because" the federal government failed to "protect the states from invasion" of "illegal aliens." In an April 26 WorldNetDaily column, Pat Buchanan wrote that "Arizona acted because the U.S. government has abdicated its constitutional duty to protect the states from invasion and refuses to enforce America's immigration laws." Buchanan warned that "[i]f Arizona does not get control of the border and stop the invasion, U.S. citizens will stop coming to Arizona and will begin to depart, as they are already fleeing California... What we are talking about here is the balkanization and breakup of a nation into ethnic enclaves."

Many others have embraced racial profiling

CNN's Cafferty dismisses concerns about AZ racial profiling: "Well, so what?" On the April 20 edition of CNN's The Situation Room, CNN contributor Jack Cafferty claimed "virtually nothing has been done to secure this nation's borders, because Democrats want the Mexican vote and Republican donors want the illegal aliens to work for them. President Obama insists that his administration is committed to securing the borders and has taken unprecedented steps over the past 14 months. What a load."  Cafferty expressed support for the Arizona law, saying "critics say that will lead to racial profiling. Well so what?" Cafferty's "question of the hour" was "What should be done about border security if almost 20 percent of illegal immigrants entering Arizona from Mexico have criminal records." Despite receiving "several thousand" responses to his question, Cafferty only read emails containing racially charged rhetoric.

Crowder: "You're not looking for a blond-haired, blue-eyed Swede most of the time." During the April 23 edition of Fox News' Hannity, Fox News contributor Steven Crowder said that there's racial profiling in the law and "I don't think there's really anything wrong as far as racial profiling, stopping people who are coming in illegally. I mean, you're not looking for a blond- haired, blue-eyed Swede most of the time." Crowder claimed "it's a brilliant move for Obama politically because he's promised all these entitlements and he wants to make sure this huge voting block knows that they're going to get some gimmes as well."

Gutfeld: Racial profiling a no-brainer. On the April 21 edition of Fox News' Hannity, Red Eye host Greg Gutfeld said of the law: "A lot of the critics are saying this is racial profiling. Duh! They're coming from another country. That's what you do. You have to look at them and see who they are before you know they're legal or illegal. I don't think that's a fair criticism."

Gallagher dismisses racial profiling concerns. On the April 23 edition of his Salem Radio program, radio host and Fox News contributor Mike Gallagher told Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace, "Sign it, baby, sign it" and that the Arizona legislature is his "new hero." After Wallace noted concerns about civil liberties, Gallagher said that "it's racial profiling, to be sure, cops know if there's a van full of dark-skinned men with lawnmowers packed into the back of a pick-up truck...that's what they're talking about."

Hume defends profiling: "Some people are going to have to endure inconvenience as opposed to everybody." On the April 19 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume appeared to dismiss concerns about racial profiling, stating: "If it's an effective law enforcement technique done in good faith, people may have to endure some inconvenience. What we're saying here is that some people are going to have endure inconvenience, as opposed to everybody having to endure it."

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    • Author by gwe (April 28, 2010 1:20 pm ET)
      8 1
      I had a co-worker from India that was accosted by police multiple times under the assumption that he was an illegal Mexican immigrant. I can't see how law enforcement officer could conceivably implement the AZ law without some level of racial profiling.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (April 28, 2010 1:41 pm ET)
        10 2
        Some goofy teens once yelled profanities at me because they thought I was a Mexican. Actually I've got German/Norwegian ancestry and am fair skinned. However, I wear one long braid and have black/grey hair. That was enough.

        I do hope the spotlight continues to shine on Arizona and we'll see who gets caught up in this web of paranoia and confusion.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by poproxx77 (April 28, 2010 7:33 pm ET)
        2 4
        Here is the actual law.

        It is pretty reasonable. It certainly doesn't give an officer the right to stop Jose on the street because he is brown. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion. (It says exactly that.)

        After reading the bill, I certainly don't think it was conceived by a bunch of racists, or a racisit constituency in AZ. I do think it will force the Obama administration, and he will come out as the good guy. Amateur politics by AZ republicans.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (April 28, 2010 8:45 pm ET)
          1 1
          I think you are linking to a draft and not the final bill. Will get back when I can confirm or deny this.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by open_mind (April 28, 2010 9:04 pm ET)
            2 1
            Okay, it does look like the actual law and MMFA links to the same thing.

            It certainly doesn't give an officer the right to stop Jose on the street because he is brown. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion. (It says exactly that.)
            Not quite. Here is the applicable text:
            A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE...(emphasis added)
            The way I read it, race cannot be the only factor. The police will have to add in some other bs reason if they want it to stick like "erratic behavior" or some other subjective unquantifiable reason.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by poproxx77 (April 28, 2010 11:21 pm ET)
              1 3
              The way I read it, the way it says it, is that race cannot be used except to the extent allowed under the constitution. So it can't be used at all.

              We already rely on the police to make judgement calls, to make decisions based on reasonable suspicion. This is no different, this bill does not give cops the right to be racist.

              What this bill does say, is that if you are driving a vehicle and you don't have a license, id card, or legal immigration paperwork, then there is reasonable suspicion you may not be legal. If you don't speak english when he asks for your license, registration, and proof insurance and you can't provide any of that, then there is certainly reasonable suspicion. (You shouldn't be driving anyway.)

              I still don't agree with how immigration is being handled, but this is far from a racist, attempt to haress brown skinned poeple. Inflamatory remarks from the left have turned this bill into something it isn't.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 1:17 am ET)
                4  
                The way I read it, the way it says it, is that race cannot be used except to the extent allowed under the constitution. So it can't be used at all.
                Lol. Then why did they insert the word "solely" as opposed to more prohibitive language?
                What this bill does say, is that if you are driving a vehicle and you don't have a license, id card, or legal immigration paperwork, then there is reasonable suspicion you may not be legal. If you don't speak english when he asks for your license, registration, and proof insurance and you can't provide any of that, then there is certainly reasonable suspicion. (You shouldn't be driving anyway.)
                I am not sure that the language part isn't a substitute for race, but driving is a privileged activity and I have no problem with the state checking ID and lack of that ID being used as "reasonable suspicion". What concerns me is the power of the state to abuse this law with regards to people minding their own business walking on the street or in their homes and businesses.
                I still don't agree with how immigration is being handled, but this is far from a racist, attempt to haress brown skinned poeple.
                I don't know if this bill is racist or not in its creation, but there is no doubt in my mind that Hispanic-Americans will be disproportionately inconvenienced by its enforcement. If the result is racist, then that is the part I am concerned about. I don't care if the intention was admirable or naive.
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                • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:21 am ET)
                  1 3
                  Lets change the tune of the thread a little.

                  I'd like to hear how you, and anyone else thinks we should handle immigration. It seems most people think it isn't being handled now, and it needs to be. So lets hear your ideas.

                  If Obama is serious about uniting this country I think he has a golden opportunity with immigration reform. It may be a heated debate, but I think he is skilled enough, and I think there is a reasonable enough solution out there to bring the right and the left to reconcile differences in a spirit of true American union.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 10:57 am ET)
                    3  
                    I'd like to hear how you, and anyone else thinks we should handle immigration.
                    Anything to change the subject, huh?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 11:01 am ET)
                      1 2
                      Not at all, I'd like to expand the thread and hear what other people think is the best way to handle immigration. Really, seriously, not an attempt to change the subject, just expand it.
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                      • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 11:46 am ET)
                        2 5
                        They wont answer because most are amnesty/open boarder supporters but do not have the balls to say it. They just see 15 million new democratic voters. They could give a crap less about anything else.
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                        • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:11 pm ET)
                          1 3
                          I'll say it, amnesty is not necessarily a bad idea. I used to teach an ESL class and the majority of the students were illegal immigrants. Most would have gladly accepted U.S. citizenship.

                          I remember one family whose father was deported after being pulled over. The father, mother, and oldest child were all illegal residents. The two youngest children werer born in the U.S. making them legal residents. It was impossible to deport the whole family. Well, the father was the sole bread winner, his job paid the rent, the car payment, the doctor's bills, car payment, everything. When he was deported the mother didn't have the skills, or the money to provide for the family. They couldn't pay rent, pay for the car, or even food. They ended up using government assistance to get by. In this case deportation exacerbated the financial stress on the government. The father was back 2 months later.

                          The fact is our current system is broken, it doesn't work, and the federal government has been impotent on the issue. AZ passed this bill, and now the left is in an outrage, for perceived racism, I happen to think the real issue is a serperation of power issue though.

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                          • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 12:18 pm ET)
                            1 3
                            Amnesty is a terrible idea. Lawbreakers should not be rewarded with citizenship. What about all the people who are trying to become citizens the right way. Why should the lawbreakers get to skip ahead of them in line? As far as the anchor baby Bs that law needs to be eliminated. No other industrialized country in the world has such an asinine law. Secure the boarder first, punish business that employ illegal’s and deport illegal as we find them, immigration problem solved.
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                            • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 12:23 pm ET)
                                3
                              I have always said we don't need a repeat of 1986. No amnesty, no talk of some arbitrary path, no nothing unless and until the borders are enforced first as well as the existing laws on the books. Once that is demonstrated to be under control, then move on. But not until.
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                              • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 2:28 pm ET)
                                   
                                I think righton's position is pretty close to my own, but I would expect it to fail miserably. Only then can we pick up the pieces and craft something workable. A good reason current law is not enforced is because it is either politically poisonous or largely unmanageable and impractical. It's designed to fail.
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                              • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 2:30 pm ET)
                                   
                                agreed
                                Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (April 29, 2010 6:44 pm ET)
                          2  
                          Hi, I think if the right stopped passing laws like the one in AZ, they might just be surprised by how many Hispanics tend to be more conservative in philosophy and in religion.
                          Report Abuse
                      • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 3:16 pm ET)
                        4  
                        As I said in another thread, the problem is the demand. The demand in this case is all of the businesses that KNOWINGLY hire illegals, because they work hard, and don't have rights. These lawbreaking companies make money, and leech off of the country, county and city they operate in by enjoying the services without paying their fair share of the costs of those services. Eradicate those businesses, eliminate the demand, and supply will mostly dry up.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by mikehuck1976 (April 29, 2010 6:43 pm ET)
                        2  
                        I'll answer your question. We should offer an optional guest worker program. Wherein each person who chooses this would be regulated and so would the industry they work in. We should also be honest about the number of immigrant labor we need in this country and we should raise the number we allow to seek citizenship each year until that number has become either guest workers or citizens. And, yes, we should give those here already first crack at it. I know this is going to be the sticking point. Because they have already broken the law to get here. Which they have. However, they have also been handcuffed by the same outdated, silly lack of realistic regulation and law-making that we, as a government, have been. I say we both admit we have been negligent and move on.
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                • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 11:24 am ET)
                    3
                  They used solely, I certainly can't read minds, but it is pretty clear what they mean. Race, nationality, and skin color cannot be used to a reasonable suspicion. Its pretty clear. Its also cleaer that reasonable suspicion is subject to the constitutional definition, which has been and will continue to be determined by strict judicial constraints.

                  Language is not a substitute for race. Its reasonable to assume citizens of the United States, and Naturalized citizens speak at least basic english.
                  If they don't speak at least basic english then you have reasonable suspicion.

                  It concerns me that people will be harassed by the police, but this bill doesn't give police officers additional lattitude to do so. It authorizes them to determine legal residence on the premise fo reasonable suspicion, something that has long been established. It has been abused in the past, and will be abused in the future, but like I've said before that has been addressed by the Supreme Court already, and I'm sure will be again.

                  Again though, I don't like this bill. i think it is treating the symptom rather than the disease. It will be overly expensive and extremely difficult to enforce. But racist cops will still be racist cops with or without this bill. You'd be hard pressed to pass legislation to change a person's character.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 11:41 am ET)
                    2 4
                    Poproxx,

                    I hear you. But you say not being able to speak English may be reasonable suspicion, and for the sake of argument I will agree. But there has to be some conversation taking place, how is that initiated? For what reason?

                    Look, I am not coming at this from a race based angle at all. For me, it's civil rights. As far as I can see, a police officer has no reason to be reasonably suspicious of me based solely on my legal status. There is no legitimate way to determine that, no definable standard. If there is, I would like to hear it. It's way too vague and therefore troublesome for me.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 11:56 am ET)
                        4
                      I'm Ok with defining a clear set of criteria police can use as 'suspicious behavior or reasonable cause'. It happen to think that there is a long history of criteria already in place however. It is the basis of our judicial system, its called jurisprudence, there have been many cases dealing specifically with racial profiling.

                      Perhaps a list would be nice. Msybe we could hire an attorney to make one. Or maybe we could trust our law enforcement to act responsibly (as we have been doing for the last 200 years) and deal with the issue on a case by case issue. (as we have been doing for the last 200 years)

                      The precedent is already in place. It is established. Our current, albeit expensive, legal system is equipped to handle this legislation.

                      Right On, sorry to say you've been duped by the left. It has mistakenly, and erroneously turned this into a race issue. (Typical but effective tactic) Sorry friend but you have fallen victim to the mighty progressive movement.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 12:04 pm ET)
                        2 4
                        I already told you it is not a racial issue for me. And No, I have not been duped by anyone just because I find a law in which someone can be stopped by a police officer for an extremely vague and undefinable reason. You may not find that troubling, but I do. I share your concern for strict border enforcement, I am as adamant about that an anyone, but this law doesn't enforce our borders at all. And it does nothing to go after the carrot, which is employers hiring illegals. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a federal government which has essentially abdicated their responsibility. I can see that, and I empathize with the people of Arizona, absolutely.

                        But I cannot get past the infringement on basic civil rights to be free of government "harassment" if you will. Unless someone can demonstrate to me how a police officer can be reasonably suspicious of someone who is in this country illegally with some verifiable standard, then I am not convinced.

                        And what you are doing is what the left does all the time, parse and slice words and their meanings with express vagueness so as not to be pinned down. "Reasonable suspicion". It's time those supporting this law stop dancing around those words and say exactly what they mean.

                        So far, I haven't heard it.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:14 pm ET)
                            2
                          I'm not parsing words. MAybe you don't understand what jurisprudence is. There is a clear history of judicial rulings on this issue, and this bill does not attempt to overturn or modify them in the least.

                          I'm telling you there is clear procedure for why a police officer can and cannot detain a person. This law does not change that.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (April 29, 2010 6:47 pm ET)
                    2  
                    I understand what you are saying about the actual written law, popro. I may even agree that this was someone's attempt when writing the law. But, if we are being honest and rational, surely we can see that without any racial profiling this law would almost NEVER be used. Clearly, the implication of this law is going to be using racial profiling to attempt to find more illegal immigrants to deport. How scared of Mexicans are we going to be in this country? How far are we willing to go in sacrificing core principles in this country just to find a few more illegal immigrants to deport?
                    Report Abuse
        • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 10:03 am ET)
          5  
          Riddle me this, then. A person driving a commercial truck enters scales with said truck, and because of his skin color is profiled as a suspected illegal. He is asked for identification, he presents his valid commercial drivers license (CDL). Case closed, right? Nope - he then provides his valid SSN (verifiable, of course). Case closed, right? Nope - he is arrested, detained, and forced to provide even MORE documentation that he is legally in this country, being assumed guilty of unlawful entry even though all his initial documentation is already in order. Sound far-fetched, something that would never happen under the law just signed? Sorry - it just happened, AFTER the law was signed. And his crime? Driving while of the skin color that matches the majority of the illegal entrants to the USA in that part of the country. It also matches 30% of the LEGAL population of that same part of the country.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (April 29, 2010 12:43 pm ET)
            3  
            And this is the real problem with this law - the unconstitutional infringement upon the rights of citizens. The 4th and the 14th amendments don't allow it!
            Report Abuse
      • Author by The Lonewacko Blog (April 30, 2010 1:39 pm ET)
          2
        I once worked with an American of Indian descent of basically the hustling Yuppie type. I also once worked with those from India. The former wouldn't cause any "reasonable suspicion", and if a cop tried to claim otherwise the judge would immediately rule against the cop and a lawsuit would result. Those from India would have their visas with them - as they're required to by federal law - and there wouldn't be a problem there either.

        MMFA is just vainly offering things like this because the Dems want to profit from illegal activity.

        P.S. For just a partial list of those who've lied about the AZ law and with a detailed explanation of what they've lied about, I've got around 20 posts on my Arizona page.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by ScienceBuff (April 28, 2010 2:16 pm ET)
      7 2
      Under this law, it's inevitable and unavoidable that some US citizens and legal immigrants will be detained and harassed. These innocent victims will be almost 100% Hispanic or other non-white ethnicity.

      No American citizen should ever feel compelled to have to carry multiple forms of identification with them at all times solely because of their physical appearance. That's what this law will require of them. It's un-American.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by RavenRog (April 28, 2010 3:39 pm ET)
        2 8
        Racial profiling is ILLEGAL in this bill.

        Just wish you all would actually read SB 1070 before you rip on it.

        Did you know that the 2/3 of Hispanics in AZ are actually FOR this bill?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (April 28, 2010 3:41 pm ET)
          2 3
          But how do you get around it? If you are a cop what criteria are you going to use to stop someone?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by RavenRog (April 28, 2010 3:46 pm ET)
            2 5
            Uh, the criteria you would for anyone because the police must have probable cause to stop someone first, then they can inquire about immigration status. Again, please read the bill.

            When it happens to me, I do what I'm asked to do, and SHOW MY IDENTIFICATION. I show my ID for a LOT of things.

            You are all being lied to by the media.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (April 28, 2010 3:51 pm ET)
              5 1
              That is not the way I read it. It says "reasonable suspicion", it doesn't say probable cause for some other possible crime. "Reasonable suspicion" is very subjective and if a police officer sees someone who "looks" like an illegal alien then is that not reasonable suspicion?
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              • Author by highliter (April 28, 2010 5:29 pm ET)
                1 4
                No its not.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (April 28, 2010 5:32 pm ET)
                  4 1
                  The bill says reasonable suspicion, not probable cause.
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                  • Author by highliter (April 28, 2010 5:43 pm ET)
                    2 3
                    Yes reasonable suspicion is the term used in virtually all stops by police. If a police officer sees you swerving that give him reasonable suspicion to make a stop, he then must have probable cause to make an arrest. IE breathalyzer or sobriety tests. Thats how its works. Someone’s looks is never reasonable suspicion unless they match the description of a person who has just committed a crime in that area. Racial profiling is illegal under the 4th amendment this law does and couldn’t anyway change that.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (April 28, 2010 5:52 pm ET)
                      7 1
                      So what exactly would be reasonable suspicion in determining if one is illegal or not? That is what I can't figure out. It is way too broad and vague.
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                      • Author by highliter (April 28, 2010 6:07 pm ET)
                        2 3
                        IF you were stopped for speeding not having any form of identification no insurance no registration, possible a obviously fake Id having the ssn # given to you and it comes back to a Mr Wong from Ney work and you’re not Asian. Not knowing your own SSN# Speaking little to no English. The same standards the police use when they make raids at business for using illegal labor.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (April 28, 2010 6:19 pm ET)
                          6 1
                          But speeding is probable cause, a traffic infraction worthy of a police stop. This bill does not say there needs to be anywhere near that standard, that is the problem - it is vague and give too much latitude to the police officer.

                          Look, I am not even coming at this from a racial standpoint at all. I am coming at it from a civil rights stance. Unless there is some definable standard for "reasonable suspicion", I cannot support it. And I cannot see one for just determining the legal status of one individual.
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                          • Author by open_mind (April 28, 2010 9:25 pm ET)
                            6 1
                            Hilighter is trotting out the "stopping people for another infraction" red herring. The law refers to "reasonable suspicion" with regards to being illegally present. In other words, the police do not need to rely on catching someone doing another legal infraction for the law to be in effect.

                            There are three ways you can come into contact with police. Conversational, Detention (under reasonable suspicion) and Arrest (requires probable cause). If the police engage you conversationally and you exibhit suspicious behavior - (or any other numerous bs reasons) however that law enforcement officer determines that to be - they can then argue reasonable suspicion that you are here illegally and ask you for ID according to the statute. The courts have ruled you only legally need to provide authorities your name verbally (without written documentation) if you are not operating a vehicle or some other licensed privilege or applying for state aide, etc.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:07 am ET)
                                2
                              Look the Supreme Court has ruled on this already. They enumerate what is and what isn't reasonable suspicion. Terry vs. Ohio is the defining case on what the fourth amendment protects concerning 'reasonable suspicion." Chief Justice Warren speaking for the majority who ruled in favor of Ohio, said;

                              "The heart of the Fourth Amendment,... is a severe requirement of specific justification for any intrusion upon protected personal security, coupled with a highly developed system of judicial controls to enforce upon agents of the State the commands of the Constitution."

                              He goes on to explain in more detail how the courts should handle future cases, and how "agents of the State" should be constrained. Terry vs. Ohio demostrates the responsibility policemen have to act in good faith and the Judicial checks in place to deal with what is and isn't 'reasonable suspicion.'
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 1:06 am ET)
                                3  
                                "The heart of the Fourth Amendment,... is a severe requirement of specific justification for any intrusion upon protected personal security, coupled with a highly developed system of judicial controls to enforce upon agents of the State the commands of the Constitution."
                                Exactly. The Terry Stop is meant to protect cops from a security threat. Therefore it is reasonable to search these individuals. It does not seem analogous to a situation where any person's immigration status is in question. It is not reasonable to argue someone's immigration status should be checked, because we are unsure if they pose a threat. That applies to a pat-down more reasonably.
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                                • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:54 am ET)
                                    2
                                  Justice Warren was very specific that this applied to all 'reasonable suspicion' instances.

                                  "specific justification for any(Emphasis Added) intrusion upon protected personal security, coupled with a highly developed system of judicial controls"

                                  You are correct he later spoke specifically about this case and perceived danger. But he made it cleaer that strict judicial controls are the ONLY way to control reasonable suspicion.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:04 am ET)
                                    2  
                                    You are correct he later spoke specifically about this case and perceived danger. But he made it cleaer that strict judicial controls are the ONLY way to control reasonable suspicion.
                                    Of course I am correct, but thanks for the support. The Terry Stop justifies pat down searches on brief detentions by police to keep them safe. You are making a failure by putting emphasis on the wrong word in your quote:
                                    "specific justification for any(Emphasis Added) intrusion upon protected personal security, coupled with a highly developed system of judicial controls"
                                    Police officers are able to pat down people who they are questioning based on "reasonable suspicion", as a matter of safety and security to the LEO. It is not a strictly analogous situation to determining
                                    whether someone is lawfully present - which presumably does not under normal circumstances pose a potential or direct threat to the LEO using any reasonable explanation.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 11:43 am ET)
                                        2
                                      You are mistakenly assuming Justice Warren was talking about security of law enforcement when he made this statement. He wasn't, he was speaking in gerneral about search an seizure and its connection to jurisprudence.

                                      You have confused this statement with his later diction of pat down and arrest procedure based on potential violence against the police officer. I'm not claiming that the specific situtation was analogous, I'm using the case to address the broader picture, and restate Justice Warrens explanation that jurisprudence, judicial contraints are the only way to effectively determine reasonable cause.
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                          • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 10:21 am ET)
                              2
                            The Supreme Court has already defined reasonable suspicion. The reasonable suspicion standard in the minimum standard that is required to make any kind of stop.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:21 am ET)
                              3  
                              I do not challenge the general legal idea of "reasonable suspicion" although I share concern that such a standard is being expanded by the Arizona law to something not entirely applicable to the legal precedents and can lead to abuse.

                              When I was a teenager, I was either a passenger or driver in several stops for different reasons ranging from rolling stops, speeding and headlight being out. Despite not ever smoking marijuana in my life (along with my friends at the time who were athletes and never smoked it), on all three occasions, the officer claimed he smelled something "funny" in the car and gave me a weird look. I asked him what he was talking about and he claimed he smelled marijuana. It was complete bs. He asked me (and on some occasions my friends) if he could search the cars. I did not know much about the law back then, so I just consented. The LEO's never found anything after detaining us for up to an hour on one occasion, but I figure they were just fishing - likely profiling teenagers for drug use based merely on a routine traffic stop and some phantom unquantifiable "smell". I am convinced had I refused - which was my right, it would have been much worse for all of us. When people show so much trust towards the government, I am reminded of this experience. Not me.
                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 11:29 am ET)
                              3  
                              Fine, reasonable suspicion in the committing of a crime. But tell me how reasonable suspicion enters into a police officer's duties on determining if someone is here legally or not?
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 11:42 am ET)
                                  2
                                There is no justification for reasonable suspicion if this law is used to stop people solely to check immigration status. This law was designed to be used when an officer has made a valid stop for other reasons. If during this stop an officer develops reasonable suspicion the officer is then required to investigate that person legal status. Reasonable suspicion can include failure to provide identification, vehicle registration, or proof of insurance. If a person with no ID cannot provide his ssn# or correct date of birth that matched an ssn# provided. The suspect may even have trouble remembering the ssn# or date of birth when asked to repeat it a few min later. Suspect speaks little to no English. Police deal with suspect without identification all the time. If they are not satisfied the suspect can and will be detained until his identity is verified.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 11:49 am ET)
                                  2 1
                                  Highliter, That is not the way I read the law at all, that the illegal immigration part is some piggy backing on some other infraction.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:54 am ET)
                                  4  
                                  This law was designed to be used when an officer has made a valid stop for other reasons
                                  That's odd. According to AZ law enforcement, they already do this. I personally have no problem with that scenario (although I think it can be abused fairly easily and should be monitored). Unfortunately the way the new Arizona law is written, it is not confined merely to such scenarios. If it is, then just point out the restrictions I must have carelessly overlooked. I'll be waiting, but not holding my breath.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 12:08 pm ET)
                                      1
                                    The restriction are called the 4th amendment!
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 1:53 pm ET)
                                      1  
                                      The 4th Amendment strictly applies to searches based on probable cause and arrest. The standard being discussed and is the lower standard in the Terry Case is "reasonable suspicion" which applies to mere detentions and is not directly under the protection of the 4th Amendment. The people that were searched/frisked for weapons under Terry were not under arrest at the time, but the search was allowed under the "reasonable suspicion" standard - i.e. without a warrant needed as the 4th amendment requires. As I have said before, Terry is not applicable because the basis of Terry was reasonable protection for the LEO's. That is not arguable using the AZ law.
                                      Report Abuse
                                  • Author by DellDolly (April 29, 2010 12:46 pm ET)
                                    4  
                                    The Police Chief from Pima, AZ confirmed this last night, OM.
                                    Report Abuse
                              • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:17 pm ET)
                                  2
                                Being here illegally is a crime. Hence illegal.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 12:20 pm ET)
                                  4 1
                                  I understand that. But what constitutes reasonable suspicion for determining whether or not someone is here illegally? That is what has yet to be explained, or defined.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:33 pm ET)
                                      2
                                    See my comments from Justice Scalia.

                                    He explains the litmus test to be used.

                                    I'll post some other examples in a minute.

                                    (I'm not a lawyer, so cases aren't always at the front of my memory.)
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 12:42 pm ET)
                                      2 1
                                      I read it. It doesn't give me any comfort what those reasonable suspicion standards are when it comes to determining the legality of someone in this country. Tell me how a cop is supposed to be reasonably suspicious of someone without some interaction or contact first. And if they can't determine that until that happens, then I need an explanation as to why the contact is prudent or appropriate to begin with. If you say it is reasonable suspicion again, then that is a circular argument with no definition. Which is what I said originally.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:53 pm ET)
                                        1 1
                                        The bill does not allow for for reasonable suspicion without some interaction. Jurisprudence doesn't allow for it. You are right a cop shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily detain a person. That is the case currently, and 1070 doesn't change that. A police officer still has to have a reason for detaining a person. 1070 does not allow for a police officer to say, well I stopped him because he was illegal. Well how did you know he was illegal? There has to be justification. A police officer can't say, I arrested him because he is a drug dealer/child molester/robber/prostitute whatever. He has to say I knew he was dealing drugs because...

                                        1070 doesn't change that.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by southerngal (April 29, 2010 12:58 pm ET)
                                          4 1
                                          But what justification? The way I read it is not some other offense, but any interaction. Lawful interaction. That does not mean the person has to be acting unlawfully, and that is the troubling part for me.
                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 1:56 pm ET)
                                          1  
                                          The bill does not allow for for reasonable suspicion without some interaction.
                                          Quote which part of the law states that explicitly, please.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by poproxx77 (April 30, 2010 10:50 am ET)
                                              1
                                            "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. "

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by open_mind (April 30, 2010 3:53 pm ET)
                                              1  
                                              That's what I thought. You were referring to "lawful contact", which covers just about anything from casual conversation to arrest and everything in between.
                                              Report Abuse
                        • Author by mikehuck1976 (April 29, 2010 6:50 pm ET)
                          1  
                          Your example is actually probable cause hi. Not reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion, to me, is purposefully vague to allow the frontline law enforcement to have to make the determination if they feel like bothering someone they "think" is illegal. Maybe it is just because I was raised by a libertarian. But, I don't want to live in an America where you have to constantly prove, with papers, that you are an American. What the helll is all this freedom we are fighting for, if we have to live in this country as if it were East Germany from the Soviet bloc?
                          Report Abuse
                • Author by friedbergboy1422 (April 29, 2010 10:40 am ET)
                  3  
                  Are you saying "reasonable suspicion" is not very subjective? If its not, great! Please provide the standards that constitute "reasonable suspicion." This could clear everything up!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:50 am ET)
                      2
                    It was clarified that reasonable suspicion is very subjective and therefore must be controlled by tight judicial constraints. See Terry vs. Ohio, the majority decision given by Justice Warren is very clear on the subject.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:30 am ET)
                      3  
                      So what are the constraints that are applicable here? It looks like Warren was saying that the only way this can be controlled is by frequently issuing court challenges to define the limits of the standard and what examples make sense. It looks like this AZ law goes beyond Terry and is ripe for a challenge. I would not be surprised if the words of Warren are used to strike down this law.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:30 pm ET)
                          2
                        This is from 2008 Virginia vs. Moore; Justice Scalia gave the majority opinion.

                        "Where history provides no conclusive answer, this Court has analyzed a search or seizure in light of traditional reasonableness standards “by assessing, on the one hand, the degree to which it intrudes
                        upon an individual’s privacy and, on the other, the degree to which it is needed for the promotion of legitimate governmental interests.”

                        1070 is subject to the constitution by its own reasoning, therefore it is subject to this ruling. This ruling gives a specific legal itmus test as to the reasonableness of search and seizure practices. Being brown does not qualify, nor does 1070 say being brown is reasonable.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:30 pm ET)
                             
                          itmus=litmus
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 1:59 pm ET)
                          1  
                          Scalia's answer is not really a clear answer is it on the subject? It just addresses the general balance between the interests of the state and the privacy of individuals. This is not nearly as decisive as you make it seem. From what I see, this question is anything, but settled.
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by poproxx77 (April 28, 2010 11:38 pm ET)
                  2
                It says reasonable suspicion based on the definition of the AZ and US constitution. Which is probable cause.

                "...TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION."
                Report Abuse
                • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:36 am ET)
                  3  
                  Huh? I have no idea what you were trying to write there. Please elaborate. Are you saying that the law says it's legal, so therefore it is legal? That would be a nice trick. Laws that have been found unconstitutional should have put that in there, too.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by vysotsky (April 28, 2010 4:59 pm ET)
              6 1
              "The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."

              The key term here is "solely". Even in the most blatant examples of racial profiling, race operates in conjunction with other attributes, qualities and behavior. (i.e. "What is someone of race X doing in that neighborhood, driving that car, wearing those clothes, behaving that way, speaking about that subject? How suspicious.")

              This bill in no way makes racial profiling illegal, as you claim. On the contrary, the bill invites it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by highliter (April 28, 2010 5:31 pm ET)
                3 4
                The bill doesn’t need to make racial profiling illegal the 4th amendment already does that.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by vysotsky (April 28, 2010 5:39 pm ET)
                  6 1
                  I agree. That's why I think this bill is unconstitutional.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by highliter (April 28, 2010 5:45 pm ET)
                    2 6
                    Please do tell me where this bill says it’s ok to stop someone solely on the basis of race.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by ScienceBuff (April 28, 2010 6:02 pm ET)
                      7 3
                      There is nothing in the bill to PREVENT that from happening. It gives a huge amount of leeway to the officer to decide what qualifies as "reasonable suspicion." The officer could say virtually anything even when the real reason was ethnicity.

                      The real key to the legislation is that the officer may demand identification based on ANY sort of contact, even the most casual. It's already been shown that a driver's license won't have to be accepted as proof.

                      This means that citizens and legal immigrants will all have to carry around multiple forms of ID and will then still have to hope that the officer will accept them at face value. However, in real life, not all citizens will have to do so. Common sense tells us that white citizens are highly unlikely to be challenged. We all know what the citizens who will be challenged will look like.

                      There's even worse stuff in the bill. If residents don't think that the officers are being aggressive enough in enforcing the law, there are provisions that allow them to take action against the officers. They will be under pressure to challenge someone, anyone to prove their status. Again, what do you think the people they're most likely to challenge will look like?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Tbone Slickens (April 28, 2010 11:57 pm ET)
                        1 5
                        It's already been shown that a driver's license won't have to be accepted as proof.


                        Really? Where has it been shown?

                        This means that citizens and legal immigrants will all have to carry around multiple forms of ID a


                        Misinformation at its worst and once again projection on your part.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by ScienceBuff (April 29, 2010 9:13 am ET)
                          5  
                          It's already been shown that a driver's license won't have to be accepted as proof. - me

                          Really? Where has it been shown? - Tbone Slickens

                          We saw it just last week. An American born Latino truck driver was challenged at a weigh station. He presented his commercial driver's license and told them his SS#. He was handcuffed and brought to the immigration office. His wife had to leave work, find his SS card and his birth certificate and bring them to him to get him released.

                          There was a presumption of guilt. Do you honestly believe it would have happened had the driver been white? I don't think you're THAT naive.

                          The laws that currently exist provide no less protection against unreasonable detention than does the new law. They couldn't prevent this from happening and the new AZ law makes it even more likely to occur.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by rumpleteasermom (April 29, 2010 9:55 am ET)
                            4 1

                            The laws that currently exist provide no less protection against unreasonable detention than does the new law.
                            The difference as I see it s that now the police have MORE incentive to act that way. The law allows them to be challenged for not acting aggressively enough, so some will take it as far as they can and point to this law.

                            Some have already been behaving that way and are under Federal investigation for civil rights violations.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by Tbone Slickens (April 29, 2010 9:57 am ET)
                              6
                            The law isn't in effect yet. Do you have all the details? The link you posted on another thread was VERY sketchy about the why and how.

                            There will be training for the officers. Will there be a instance of abuse? I'm sure. Does that mean the should scrap the whole law? No.

                            You are trying to make it sound (on purpose) that this will turn into a police state mentality. That just isn't based in fact. If you drive around the SWest US as you claim to have done, then you will find immigration checkpoints all over the area. I was never waived through and I'm as fair haired and blue eyed as they come. This is already SOP and has been for over twenty years. All this law is doing is helping ICE do their jobs better. Another spoke in the wheel.

                            If an officer asks me for my ID I will gladly show him and THANK him for a job well done.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by ScienceBuff (April 29, 2010 10:53 am ET)
                              3  
                              No, the law isn't in effect yet, but the detention still happened. For a number of reasons, the new law will make such detentions MORE likely to occur.

                              I don't think I've claimed to have driven around the SW US. I lived in Phoenix for three years, but I moved back to Minnesota 20 years ago. Even when I lived there, I can't say I traveled a lot. Still, I don't recall any of the immigration checkpoints to which you refer when I was there. However, I do recognize that my personal experience was limited enough to not mean much.

                              If I'm asked for my ID, I'll likely provide it, also. However, the fact is that if I'm not under suspicion of some specific violation, I can refuse and there is nothing the police can do about it. Under the new law, that won't be the case. The lower standard will allow the police to detain me under a very generalized suspicion, not suspicion of a specific violation. Still, I am of clear European descent, so I feel confident that I won't be likely to face such a demand. My sister-in-law and my niece, on the other hand, face a much higher probability of facing such a challenge.

                              US citizens and legal immigrants of latino descent will be the focus of challenges. It's unavoidable.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:58 am ET)
                                1 2
                                It isn't a lower standard. IT IS THE SAME STANDARD. THE 4th ammendment standard.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by ScienceBuff (April 29, 2010 11:09 am ET)
                                  3  
                                  In your dreams. The police will have a lower standard under which they may demand proof of legal status and the challenged person must provide it. That isn't the current standard.

                                  The law, as written, creates the standards and this law changes them from what they were before. If it didn't, it's supporters wouldn't have any reason to believe it's necessary.
                                  Report Abuse
                          • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 10:25 am ET)
                            5  
                            And BOTH were NATURAL BORN citizens, not even naturalized citizens or (gasp) documented nonresident workers.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:38 am ET)
                              2
                            He wasn't stopped because of this 1070, it doesn't take force until August.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by rumpleteasermom (April 29, 2010 7:20 pm ET)
                              1  
                              He wasn't stopped because of this 1070, it doesn't take force until August.


                              Nobody is saying he was stopped BECAUSE of this new law. We are saying that his case was WRONG, he had ID with him, and was still taken into custody by ICE until his wife could produce his birth certificate showing him to be a natural born US citizen.
                              This law creates a de facto requirement that people carry that bit of documentation to prevent being detained and I have no doubt it will be overturned with it's first legal challenge.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by rumpleteasermom (April 29, 2010 7:21 pm ET)
                                4  
                                I lost my point in there. We are saying that while his particular case isn't attributed to the new law, the new law will create hundreds more cases just like his.
                                Report Abuse
                      • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 9:44 am ET)
                        2 3
                        There is nothing in the bill to PREVENT that from happening


                        Wrong the 4th amendment already does that therefore these law does not have to specify that.

                        It gives a huge amount of leeway to the officer to decide what qualifies as "reasonable suspicion.

                        They already do this every day its part of there job. Reasonable suspicion is required in every stop they make no matter what it is for.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by ScienceBuff (April 29, 2010 10:32 am ET)
                          4  
                          The 4th Amendment already exists and is applicable to existing law. Yet it currently happens. This law lowers the bar on the circumstances under which ID can be demanded.

                          "Reasonable suspicion" is a lower standard than "probable cause," which has been the standard in the past. Also, in the past, an officer had to have a reason to exercise his "reasonable suspicion," some actions taken by the "suspect." Under the new law, the officer may act on that suspicion even under the most casual sort of contact. In the past it could only be exercised when contact was of a more official nature.

                          Because of provisions in the law, the police will actually be under pressure to demand ID. Surely you can see that ethnicity will be a primary factor in who they choose to challenge, even if it's not stated. Police have probably already discussed with each other a variety of factors that they believe would qualify as "reasonable suspicion" that could be applied to most instances. That isn't a suggestion of ill motives on the part of police; it's a recognition that they'll be under extra pressure to act on the new law and they're trying to protect themselves. However, they'll want some of their challenges to uncover actual illegal aliens, so ethnicity WILL be a primary factor even if it's not stated.

                          Therefore, citizens and legal immigrants WILL be challenged and forced to provide ID when they haven't provided "probable cause" to be under suspicion of anything. And, if they don't carry what the police consider adequate ID, they will face harassment and detention that I, as a white person, would not. It's unavoidable under this law.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 10:51 am ET)
                              2
                            Probable cause is the standard used when making an arrest not a when making a stop. You obviously have zero understand of how law enforcement works. This law does not allow for arrest based on reasonable suspicion it simply says the officer must investigate when a reasonable suspicion exists. Im sure police are discussing and training on what would constitutes reasonable suspicion so there are fewer mistakes. I was a MP for 4 years I never had to deal with illegal’s however the issue of no ID did come up. Its not hard to tell if someone is trying to hide something when it comes to their identification. You simply ask for name ssn# date of birth and address, its also not hard to tell when someone is lying they can sometimes have a hard time remembering ther birth day or even cange the ifo they just gave you when you ask them again, you then send the ssn # to dispatch and see if it matches your suspect matches the age, race, height, weight, ect.. if they do then they are good to go. If it does not then you have a problem no matter if your white or brown.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by ScienceBuff (April 29, 2010 11:02 am ET)
                              3  
                              You may talk about broad theory all you wish, but the fact is that in practice this law will result in US citizens and legal immigrants being detained for not having ID that satisfies the police. In other words, they will be detained when they haven't broken any laws, because the standards for detention have been lowered. It's happened already under the higher standards, so the lower standards increase the likelihood. Because of the citizen complaint part of the new law, the police will be under pressure to demand IDs. The result of that pressure will be that many of those from whom IDs are demanded will be entirely legal. Common sense tells us that the challenges will be of those of limited ethnicities.

                              Regardless of the intent, the result will be legal latinos facing either detention or a requirement of carrying more forms of ID than would required of a white person. That's reality.
                              Report Abuse
                        • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:42 am ET)
                          4  
                          Wrong the 4th amendment already does that therefore these law does not have to specify that.
                          Except where powers granted in the law conflict with the Constitution. That would be like saying you can pass a state law outlawing abortion and it is constitutional because abortion is a federally recognized constitutional right. Obviously such a law would be overturned.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by voltaire (April 29, 2010 2:28 pm ET)
                            1  
                            Thanks. I was waiting for somebody on these threads to point this out!
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by voltaire (April 29, 2010 2:28 pm ET)
                            2  
                            Thanks. I was waiting for somebody on these threads to point this out!
                            Report Abuse
                    • Author by open_mind (April 28, 2010 9:36 pm ET)
                      4 2
                      Please do tell me where this bill says it’s ok to stop someone solely on the basis of race.
                      According to my reading of the law, race can be a factor, it just can't be the "sole[]" factor. Other factors may include supposedly "erratic behavior", "nervousness/perspiration" or any other purely subjective/unquantifiable "reasons".
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 12:15 am ET)
                        1 3
                        No. 1070 clearly states that police officers are to adhere to the Constitution of both the United States and Arizona.

                        As i explained earlier Terry vs. Ohio explicitly defines reasonable suspicion. Since this country operates on jurisprudence, that supreme court case ruling is nationally applicable. Even in AZ.

                        A police officer very well may cite erractic behavior, but he better have a good reason why that erractic behavior led to the search and/or seizure of that person. If he only cites sweating it will never stand up in court, the fourth ammendment will have been violated,(according to Terry vs. Ohio) the police officer may be fired, and the victim will be exonerated.

                        Please try again.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 12:59 am ET)
                          6  
                          No. 1070 clearly states that police officers are to adhere to the Constitution of both the United States and Arizona.
                          Gee. That's comforting. By that reasoning every law is Constitutional so long as it says people enforcing the law must abide by the Constitution.
                          As i explained earlier Terry vs. Ohio explicitly defines reasonable suspicion. Since this country operates on jurisprudence, that supreme court case ruling is nationally applicable. Even in AZ.
                          The reasonable suspicion standard in Terry, however is not really applicable here. How can one reasonably suspect someone or anyone is illegally present in a way that is analogous to Terry?
                          A police officer very well may cite erractic behavior, but he better have a good reason why that erractic behavior led to the search and/or seizure of that person.
                          I don't see why it even needs to be a "good reason" as you say. Isn't that discretion left mostly up to the officer? All that is required is that he thinks it is a good reason. No judge needs to be convinced to sign a warrant according to the way the law is written. It is a situation that is ripe for abuse on its face.

                          I am well aware that policemen will be fired for misapplying this shoddy legislation. I do not see that as the same sort of vindication of the law that you do.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by Jeremy Danials (April 28, 2010 10:08 pm ET)
                      3 1
                      [http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c358/Byt3Man/WTFs/Udi-Go-blank-Yourself.png]
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 10:24 am ET)
                      5  
                      The AZ law says race may not be used solely as the basis for suspicion, except where allowed by AZ or US Constitution. So, since neither (I assume) allows for race to be the sole basis for suspicion, the AZ law clearly allows race to be ONE OF the bases of suspicion, even (unfortunately) the primary basis of suspicion. The law says that a valid AZ DL should be sufficient, but makes no provision for valid DLs from other states - making all other state DLs immediately suspect. And I will continue to point out that the scenario that all the deniers say will never happen ALREADY DID. "Believe it or not."
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by poproxx77 (April 29, 2010 10:39 am ET)
                          2
                        Not because of 1070.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 11:28 am ET)
                          4  
                          Really? How can you support that statement, when this American CITIZEN, NATURAL BORN even, was a suspected illegal because of his skin color. He had never been required to provide more than his CDL before, why suddenly (and after the law was signed) did his wife have to come provide unreasonable documentation to PROVE that he was legal? Didn't he have to provide that same birth cert and SS card to get his CDL? Why wasn't that good enough?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by open_mind (April 30, 2010 9:15 am ET)
                            2  
                            Angels4light,

                            Poproxx77 is right about this (however much it pains me to admit it), because according to cnn, the bill will not take effect until 90 days after the legislative session ends - although I doubt this law will ever be allowed to be enforced.
                            [SB 1070] goes into effect 90 days after the close of the legislative session, which has not been determined.
                            As I have said before, police are already doing immigration enforcement. This law will only serve to give the state more power in these circumstances and increase the occurrences of situations like the one you have cited.
                            Report Abuse
            • Author by Mind0ver (April 28, 2010 5:43 pm ET)
                 
              Raven, the ID you routinely show is not proof of citizenship or legal immigration status.
              A Driver's License is not proof. Charge cards or gym ID or whatever, even with photos, are not proof.

              I was born here, but the only two documents I have that are proof of that are my Birth Certificate (which I never carry) and my Passport, which I only carry when I'm, well, passing through ports.

              Do you carry your Passport everywhere?
              Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (April 28, 2010 3:44 pm ET)
          9 2
          I've read the thing. I don't see ANYTHING in it that would prevent profiling from happening. I see much that will automatically result in profiling.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by albertsenj (April 29, 2010 12:17 am ET)
          4 2
          I'd like to point out that the Democratic version of financial reform specifically bans bailouts but, that doesn't keep the wingnuts from insisting it institutionalizes them.

          I'd like your source for your '2/3 of Hispanics' statistic.

          As far as racial profiling goes, have you never heard of 'driving while black'? African-Americans are pulled over on pretext and...

          Report Abuse
        • Author by angels4light (April 29, 2010 10:05 am ET)
          3 1
          A bills popularity, or lack thereof, is not a factor in determining its legality with respect to the Constitution.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by poproxx77 (April 28, 2010 11:35 pm ET)
          4
        THIS LAW DOES NOT GIVE POLICE THE RIGHT TO DETAIN PEOPLE BASED ON NATIONLITY, RACE, OR COLOR.

        This bill does not give police the power to ask anyone for 'their papers.' Have you read the fourth ammendment? This law does not make race, nationality, or color reasonable cause. It specifically states that only under the current law, persuant the fourth amendment do police officers have the right to search, or detain a person.

        Immigrants and visitors should expect to carry the proper documention at all times. Just like when you visit Turkey, or France, or Germany, Or bolivia, or Canada, or yes, even MEXICO. Get pulled over in Mexico without the right documentation and you have one of two options, go to jail or bribe the officer.

        Law enforcement has been operating under the same wording found in the constitution for over 200 years, and all of a sudden because the left has a problem with it? More spin and twist from the left, I am afraid its going to work. Woe be the uneducated.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mikey481516 (April 29, 2010 10:12 am ET)
             
          This law makes it a misdemeanor to not have identification even if you ARE a US citizen (AKA you can go to jail and/or be fined). This means you can't go for a jog without identification legally. It seems very Nuremborg to me.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 10:24 am ET)
          2  
          I am very comforted by the trust you show in government when it is run by Republicans. It is very heart-warming. However merely giving lip-service to the Constitution is not enough. It has no bearing on the underlying Constitutionality of the law in the parts that conflict with the Constitution. The law does not prohibit the use of race, nationality, etc. from being a factor in "reasonable suspicion" so long as it is used alongside other potentially purely subjective and unquantifiable reasons.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Tbone Slickens (April 28, 2010 11:50 pm ET)
          5
        Under this law, it's inevitable and unavoidable that some US citizens and legal immigrants will be detained and harassed. These innocent victims will be almost 100% Hispanic or other non-white ethnicity.


        This is PURE PROJECTION on YOUR part. P77 linked the bill. This isn't the race baiting thing the left is trying in vain to make it. There will be training. You of course assume the worst. Every American has to carry a form of ID if they operate a motor vehicle. Every American has to have a form of ID to travel abroad. You don't have to carry any form of ID if you don't want to, but if you plan on being a functioning member of society then you must have some form of ID. This isn't breaking new ground here.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by albertsenj (April 29, 2010 12:23 am ET)
          6  
          U.S. citizens are not required to carry identification. They need a license, while they are driving but, once they get out of the car, they don't have to take it with them.

          What is to become of someone who is charged with say, jaywalking (tough to disprove - a police officer's word against the offender's); and is then unable to produce ID??
          Report Abuse
          • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 9:53 am ET)
              4
            What is to become of someone who is charged with say, jaywalking (tough to disprove - a police officer's word against the offender's); and is then unable to produce ID??

            Easy you can ask for, ssn date of birth, name address. If the person cannot provide this information a reasonable suspicion exists that the person is trying to hide their identity and can be detained until identity is established. If the person gives this info freely and it matches the suspect right age, race, height, weight ect. (after being ran through dispatch)then no reasonable suspicion would exist and the persons would be free to go.


            tough to disprove - a police officer's word against the offender's

            as is the cast with running a red light, speeding, failure to use turn signal ect not sure what your point is here.

            ]
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mikey481516 (April 29, 2010 10:27 am ET)
                 
              Even if you can recite your SS #, DOB, address, it doesn't mean anything if you don't have legal proof, A.k.a. the correct identification (the actual item), its a misdemeanor. It doesn't matter if you're a legal US citizen or not. It's not 'detained until identity is established'. It's you're guilty of a misdemeanor. The point was that 'jaywalking' can be argued as reasonable suspicion.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 2:10 pm ET)
              2  
              Easy you can ask for, ssn date of birth, name address. If the person cannot provide this information a reasonable suspicion exists that the person is trying to hide their identity and can be detained until identity is established.
              You are totally misrepresenting the "reasonable suspicion" standard with regards to a pedestrian. All that is legally required according to the courts is that you provide your name. The fact that you seem to be okay with asking much more intrusive questions is pretty frightening, frankly.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 4:54 pm ET)
                  1
                You are wrong if you are stopped for committing a crime I believe jaywalking was the example you must produce a id there have been several court decisions that back this up.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 7:21 pm ET)
                  2  
                  You are wrong if you are stopped for committing a crime I believe jaywalking was the example you must produce a id there have been several court decisions that back this up.
                  If you can cite one case where a pedestrian was detained on reasonable suspicion where they had to provide anything beyond verbally saying their name - and the court upheld that, I will stand corrected. I'm not holding my breath while I wait, though.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (April 30, 2010 1:38 am ET)
                    3  
                    Sorry. I got tired of waiting, so I thought I would help you out. How about a California law meant to stop loitering by forcing pedestrians to show identification to police based on (you guessed it) "reasonable suspicion" (which was overturned in a 7-2 ruling). The law was overturned based largely on vagueness regarding what constitutes valid identification and potentially varying standards from officer to officer. Considering Arizona is not accepting out-of-state driver's licences, this ruling may be applicable on that point to the current law as well.

                    But there is something in the decision even more interesting than that. In fact, I recommend reading the whole thing. The majority decision upheld the lower courts argument that
                    "a person who is stopped on less than probable cause cannot be punished for failing to identify himself."
                    Wiki has a pretty good article on Stop and Identify Laws. You might want to check it out:
                    As of January 2010, the validity of a law requiring that a person detained do anything more than state his name has not come before the U.S. Supreme Court.
                    You can also take a look at Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada which was upheld by the SCOTUS, but did not clearly establish whether states could require written identification as opposed to verbal identification upon request under detention (reasonable suspicion) standards.

                    In Brown vs. Texas, the SCOTUS ruled that you do not have to give identification to the police at all if the grounds for reasonable suspicion are not reasonably sufficient to support detention.

                    In Carey v Nevada Gaming Control Board the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided
                    Nevertheless, the Supreme Court did not reverse our decision in Lawson; therefore, Lawson's holding that the police cannot, consistent with the Fourth Amendment, compel identification during an investigatory stop remains good law in this circuit.
                    The strictest law I can find to make your case comes from Oliver v. Woods which upholds the Utah statute: Utah Code Ann. § 77- 7-15 which states:
                    77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
                    A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
                    But of course, no mention of written identification and the address and explanation part of the law was never asked of the plaintiff in the case, so those aspects of the law were not subject to judicial review.

                    I admit, I have not checked out all of the caselaw exhaustively to verify wikipedia's claim that the issue has not been decided as of yet, but I think I have left you ample places to start your own investigation to refute my claim. Happy hunting!
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by Tbone Slickens (April 29, 2010 10:05 am ET)
              4
            I'm not sure where in my post you gather you are required to carry ID, but I'll state again. If you're going to be a functioning (read: working, driving) citizen then you will have to have SOME form of ID to do your job, get hired, drive to work, you fill in the blank.

            As for your jaywalking scenario, why don't you go out and give it a try? I'm guessing you'll be hard pressed to find a Barny Fife willing to waste his time and yours on that!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 10:30 am ET)
              7  
              As for your jaywalking scenario, why don't you go out and give it a try? I'm guessing you'll be hard pressed to find a Barny Fife willing to waste his time and yours on that!
              Then I get to sue Barney for not doing his job! Whoopie!
              Report Abuse
          • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 10:13 am ET)
            3  
            Exactly. And to think that if a law enforcement officer does not harass someone for jaywalking or "acting erratically" while Hispanic, the LEO can be frivolously sued for not "enforcing" the law to the person's liking.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by rumpleteasermom (April 29, 2010 10:05 am ET)
          3 1
          Every American has to carry a form of ID if they operate a motor vehicle. Every American has to have a form of ID to travel abroad. You don't have to carry any form of ID if you don't want to, but if you plan on being a functioning member of society then you must have some form of ID. This isn't breaking new ground here.


          Which would be a valid argument had this not happened just a week ago.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Tbone Slickens (April 29, 2010 10:15 am ET)
            1 4
            This is what ICE had to say.


            A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.


            Now, was the trucker new in the system? Was this the first time through this checkpoint? Was he carrying HAZMAT? Did he just look like an illegal immigrant? The link doesn't really clarify that for us.

            I feel the slant of the story, so forgive me if I'm just a tad suspicious of the intent. This very well may be racial profiling, but I'm betting there is more to the story. I would think the trucker could lawyer up on this one if it is as cut and dried as the link makes it sound.

            Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right. Is it worth canning the whole thing for ONE case?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 10:58 am ET)
                3
              That has been my point as well but no one will respond. There is not a law on the book that someone has not been wrongfully accused of committing, and/or been abuse at one time. I guess we just need to throw them all out that way mistakes can happen.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 11:47 am ET)
                3  
                There is not a law on the book that someone has not been wrongfully accused of committing, and/or been abuse at one time.
                You will have to forgive us for seeing that as a problem. Silly us. Surely some laws are more prone to abuse than others. Right?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 11:49 am ET)
                    2
                  Nope abuse is abuse, and occurs is a very small percentage of police contacts.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 2:07 pm ET)
                    2  
                    Nope abuse is abuse, and occurs is a very small percentage of police contacts.
                    Lol. Like you have any statistics to possibly back that up. The fact that you refuse to admit that some laws are more prone to abuse than others speaks volumes about your credibility on the subject. I suppose the abuse is always a very "small percentage" as long as it only happens to people that aren't you or don't look like you.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 4:44 pm ET)
                        2
                      No I can’t I don’t have time to do the research again I’m just reciprocating what I learned in school. I have a BS in Criminal Justice Administration. You have no proof that this new law will be widely abused. And please spare me the one example of the Mexican Truck driver. For one its only one case and second I have yet to hear the other side of the story.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by open_mind (April 29, 2010 7:24 pm ET)
                        2 1
                        You have no proof that this new law will be widely abused.
                        ...And you have yet to cite any such wording in the law that will prove the law will not be widely abused.
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by highliter (April 29, 2010 4:44 pm ET)
                        3
                      No I can’t I don’t have time to do the research again I’m just reciprocating what I learned in school. I have a BS in Criminal Justice Administration. You have no proof that this new law will be widely abused. And please spare me the one example of the Mexican Truck driver. For one its only one case and second I have yet to hear the other side of the story.
                      Report Abuse
    • Author by allan.masri1047 (April 30, 2010 10:52 am ET)
      2 2
      Arguing about this law with conservatives makes my head explode.

      This law is simply bad law. Only the Supreme Court can determine whether it is unconstitutional, yet one conservative after another declares it is constitutional. Evidently being a talking head on Fox gives you insight into the future decisions of SCOTUS.

      But we can all see it is bad law, because it moves us closer to a police state, in which all private actions are closely watched by the police and no one is ever safe from police interference.

      The law does not define what is "reasonable suspicion". It is vague and general, and relies on the discretion of the individual, unsupervised police officer. Whether there is proof the law will be abused is beside the point. The fact is, it could be abused, because it offers no guidelines for the police.

      Some have assumed that the legislature would not have passed the law if they believed it to be unconstitutional. This is obviously not true. Laws are passed because the politicians believe their constituents want them passed. So this is a politically motivated law.

      What is that motivation?

      Many people of Arizona do not like latino immigrants. Furthermore, they have no objection to subjecting citizens of latino heritage to harassment by the police. So the legislature and governor scored political points by giving them a new law. Yielding to bigots and racists is not a good reason to create a new law.

      Many people of Arizona are upset that the federal government has not resolved the issue of immigration. So the legislature passed the law to send a message to the federal government that immigration reform is necessary. By doing so, many of them must have realized that the states cannot legislate in areas where federal law takes precedence. Passing a bad law to punish the federal government makes no sense.

      Many politicians of Arizona would like to make a popular gesture in an election year. This includes many Senators and Representatives, the very people that are responsible for existing immigration law and passing new ones. But these people are ducking their responsibility. Instead of taking responsibility for bad laws, they blame the poor and powerless, the ones who are the targets of this very bad law.

      This is a very bad law

      1. Because it is at least partially motivated by racial hatred.
      2. Because it is at least partially motivated by political animosity.
      3. Because it permits the harassment and imprisonment of American citizens for the crime of being brown.
      Report Abuse

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