Fox runs with right-wing group's absurd "estimate" that "2,158 killed by illegals every year"
Fox & Friends displayed an on-screen graphic promoting a ridiculous Family Security Matters estimate that "2,158 killed by illegals every year." But that statistic is derived from completely baseless assumptions about immigrants' crime rates. Actual studies have found that immigrants in general are less likely to be incarcerated and that there is no evidence that undocumented immigrants commit a disproportionate amount of crime.
Please upgrade your flash player. The video for this item requires a newer version of Flash Player. If you are unable to install flash you can download a QuickTime version of the video.
Fox chyron cites absurd estimate that "2,158 killed by illegals every year"
Fox pushes ridiculous immigrant crime estimate. Fox & Friends hosted Ed Kowalski, a board member from the group 9/11 Families for a Secure America, to discuss, among other things, the controversial new Arizona immigration law. During the segment, co-host Gretchen Carlson said, "According to you, politicians seem to be more concerned about the illegals' rights than the rights of the Americans, some of whom end up dead." Kowalski responded: "That's correct, that's correct. As best as we can estimate, 2,200 Americans a year are murdered by criminal illegal aliens. That number is staggering." Several times throughout the segment, the following on-screen text aired:

But the "crude" statistic is based on an analysis using completely baseless assumptions
Human Events writer bizarrely assumed that immigrants are committing crimes at the same rate that people purportedly commit crimes in their home countries. The immigrant murder rate cited by Fox News is based on a 2005 Human Events article by Mac Johnson. In the article, Johnson said he attempted to locate statistics on "illegal alien murders" but was told "that no one kept track" of those numbers. Johnson then "arrived at my own approximation of the number," which he called "crude." After admitting that "the murder rate among illegal aliens in America is unknown," Johnson assumed that the rate at which "illegal aliens" murder would remain consistent with murder rates from the immigrant's home country. From his 2005 Human Events article:
I assumed that 3,871,912 Mexicans in America kill at the same rate as 3,871,912 Mexicans in Mexico, then did the same for 336,717 Salvadorans, 77,000 Brazilians, 226,886 Chinese and 39 other categories of illegal alien -- as totaled in a Census Bureau estimate of the illegal alien population in 2000. The report's total figure was that 8.7 million illegal aliens are in our country.
[...]
Using the above method, I estimated that illegal aliens kill 1,480 people in America every year. This assumes that the 8.7 million illegal aliens in America have a population age structure and a sex ratio similar to that of their homelands. Most murders are committed by young males. If the illegal population in America is skewed toward young males, as most believe, the murder total is actually much higher. Comparing the age structure of the population of illegal aliens that applied for amnesty during the Reagan administration (according a GAO report) to the current age structure of the population of Mexico (according to the US Census Bureau), I found that people aged 22 to 45 years old were overrepresented in the amnesty pool. Adjusting the murder rate using FBI homicide perpetrator age-cohort information for the United States (see why you need to pay attention in math class, kids?), the total is more likely to be 1,806 murders per year.
Sex ratio is harder to estimate. I have seen data indicating a 1:1 ratio of males to females in the illegal alien population, and I have seen claims that it is 90% male, as well as many figures in between. A catalog of deaths of illegal immigrants in the deserts of the Southwest (most either from exposure, automobile collisions or, interestingly, from homicide) on a "human rights" website had a ratio among the dead of 3:1 male to female. I was unable to resolve the sex ratio issue to my satisfaction. Our enforcement system is so inadequate that I could see it being no obstacle to even a pregnant woman in fashionable shoes, favoring the 1:1 ratio. But my intuition is that illegal adventures in foreign lands appeal disproportionately to testosterone-clouded minds, favoring a male bias to the ratio. Thus, I made three calculations, based on the population being 50% male (1,806 murders), 60% male (2,076 murders), or 75% male (2,510 murders). If we adjusted for the social class of the migrants, the total would climb higher. But I could find no data making this adjustment possible. Also, the sort of people who are willing to break our laws to enter are probably of a more criminal nature than those who wait for permission, meaning that the illegal alien population could be more violent than the population of their homelands as a whole. But again, there was no way to correct for this possible skewing of the population, so the estimates were left arguably too low.
So the upshot, for the journalism majors that just rejoined the article, is that a simplistic good-faith estimate is that illegal aliens kill between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the United States each year.
Family Security Matters took "the mean of
Mr. Johnson's range" to declare "there are 2,158 murders
committed annually by illegal aliens." In a February 16, 2007, report,
Family Security Matters cited Johnson's analysis and wrote: "Using
the mean of Mr. Johnson's range, there are 2,158
murders committed annually by illegal aliens --
crimes that never would have happened if they
weren't here. This is part of the collateral damage of tolerating
illegal immigration." [emphasis in original]
Johnson has a history of writing inflammatory articles on immigration.
Johnson
has
previously written articles asking
President Obama about his "illegal alien aunt," blaming
undocumented workers for helping to "burst the housing bubble," and calling
undocumented workers "millions of unlawful, uninsured, unskilled
serfs" who came to America "merely to serve as a discount servant
class for corrupt businesses."
Studies find immigrants in general are less likely to be incarcerated than native U.S. citizens
Public Policy Institute of California: "U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men." As Media Matters Action Network noted, the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) found in a February 2008 study "Crime, Corrections, and California":
The difference only grows when we expand our investigation. When we consider all institutionalization (not only prisons but also jails, halfway houses, and the like) and focus on the population that is most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity (men ages 18-40), we find that, in California, U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men (4.2% vs. 0.42%). And when we compare foreign-born men to U.S.-born men with similar age and education levels, these differences become even greater. [PPIC, "Crime, Corrections, and California," February 2008]
PPIC: "[I]mmigrants are underrepresented in California prisons." In its February 2008 study, PPIC found that "the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison." According to PPIC:
[I]mmigrants are underrepresented in California prisons compared to their representation in the overall population. In fact, U.S.- born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men. [PPIC, "Crime, Corrections, and California," February 2008]
Immigration Policy Center: "[I]ncarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants." According to a 2007 Immigration Policy Center (IPC) report, "data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated":
In fact, data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated. This holds true especially for the Mexicans, Salvadorans, and Guatemalans who make up the bulk of the undocumented population. What is more, these patterns have been observed consistently over the last three decennial censuses, a period that spans the current era of mass immigration, and recall similar national-level findings reported by three major government commissions during the first three decades of the 20th century. The problem of crime in the United States is not "caused" or even aggravated by immigrants, regardless of their legal status.
[...]
Among men age 18-39 (who comprise the vast majority of the prison population), the 3.5 percent incarceration rate of the native-born in 2000 was 5 times higher than the 0.7 percent incarceration rate of the foreign-born. [IPC, "The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation," Spring 2007]
Even "low-immigration" think tank acknowledges data don't support claim that undocumented immigrants have high crime rates
CIS acknowledges claims of high immigrant criminality rates are not "well supported." The Center for Immigration Studies, which claims "[t]he data collected by the Center during the past quarter-century has led many of our researchers to conclude that current, high levels of immigration are making it harder to achieve such important national objectives as better public schools, a cleaner environment, homeland security, and a living wage for every native-born and immigrant worker," issued a report admitting that "poor data quality" means that the claim of a high immigrant crime rate is not "well supported." From the November 2009 CIS report:
Some opinion surveys show that the public thinks immigrants overall or illegal aliens in particular have high rates of crime. On the other hand, a number of academic researchers and journalists have argued that immigrants have low rates of crime. In our view, poor data quality and conflicting evidence mean that neither of these views is well supported. Given the limitations of the data available, it is simply not possible to draw a clear conclusion about immigrants and crime. [emphasis added]
CIS: "No clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others." The same November 2009 CIS report stated:
In conclusion, we find that it would be a mistake to assume that immigrants as a group are more prone to crime than other groups, or that they should be viewed with more suspicion than others. Even though immigrant incarceration rates are high in some populations, there is no clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others. Nevertheless, it also would be a mistake to conclude that immigrant crime is insignificant or that offenders' immigration status is irrelevant in local policing. The newer information available as a result of better screening of the incarcerated population suggests that, in many parts of the country, immigrants are responsible for a significant share of crime. This indicates that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement agencies to determine the immigration status of offenders and to work with federal immigration authorities. [emphasis added]
Family Security Matters has history of attacking undocumented immigrants
"Illegal aliens" are "Burglars in the Night." FSM contributing editor Michael Cutler, a fellow at the the Center for Immigration Studies, wrote in a January 24, 2009, column that "[w]hen individuals enter our nation with out undergoing the mandated inspections process ... it is comparable to someone breaking into a home in the dead of night."
FSM pushed false claim that leprosy cases in U.S. have spiked because of "illegal aliens." In a March 6, 2007, article, FSM wrote that "[m]any illegal aliens are carrying horrific third world diseases" and pushed the false claim that "[i]n the 40 years prior to 2002, there were only 900 total cases of leprosy in the US. In the following three years there have been 9,000 cases."
FSM contributor: "Show Your Papers -- Then
Thank the Police for Asking." In a
May 3 column,
FSM contributor Gregory D. Lee defended Arizona's
recently passed immigration law and wrote: "If you are a U.S. citizen
residing or visiting Arizona and a highway
patrol officer stops you for speeding and asks you for your papers --
show
them! Thank him for enforcing the law."
FSM contributor accuses NCLR of
trying
"to dismantle American sovereignty." In a January 4 column,
contributing editor Carolyn Cooke attacked the National Council of La
Raza
(NCLR), claiming that NCLR's "lobbying efforts" are aimed at trying
"to dismantle American sovereignty." Cooke also falsely claimed
that "the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), [is] translated, 'The
National Council of the Race.' "
FSM contributor: It is "well-documented" that "[t]hough exceptions exist, these Mexicans are incorrigible trouble-makers and we just don't want them in our country." In a May 5 column, FSM contributing editor Robert Weissberg wrote:
Unfortunately, contemporary political etiquette requires defenders of tighter borders to ignore the traits of many of those sneaking in. It is just too dangerous to say, "Though exceptions exist, these Mexicans are incorrigible trouble-makers and we just don't want them in our country. They will fill our prisons, murder innocent Americans, and promote drug trafficking and otherwise harm Americans." This condemnation, no matter how well-documented, would be deemed insulting to all Mexicans and racist. It is almost as if there is now an 11th Commandment: Thou shall not try to define our national identity. These awkward realities, these in-your-face statistics on crime and welfare dependency, are sometimes called "hate facts." In today's PC-dominated climate, group-based animosity commits the most egregious sin of sins no matter how factually justified. The exceptions, of course, are condemnations of bigots and racists, and these can be attacked mercilessly without regard to truth.
FSM contributor scapegoats undocumented immigrants for California budget crisis. In a March 13, 2009, column, contributing editor Vincent Giola wrote, "[T]he failure to pay attention to the obvious affect illegal immigration has on California's social services means that some of your children's teachers in California will soon be unemployed." Giola later stated, "Is it worth destroying a whole generation of our citizen children's educational years simply to have lower cost produce or cheap gardeners?"
Family Security Matters repeatedly promoted birther conspiracy theory
FSM repeatedly promoted false claim that Obama has not produced valid birth certificate. An October 27, 2008, post by the FSM's "research staff and editors" promoted the conspiracy theory that Obama has not produced a valid U.S. birth certificate. FSM wrote: "These allegations will not go away until Mr. Obama produces proof to State and federal authorities. If he will not do so voluntarily he must be compelled by every means available." FSM has published numerous other articles promoting the birther conspiracy theory.

















It's basically saying that a mexican is a mexican is a mexican. Whether it's a gang member staying in Mexico to control the drug trade or an innocent person caught in the middle, trying to escape. It's all the same.
That is absolutely absurd.
Similar use of statistics tells us the world is 6,000 years old.
Now, I'm sure many of you will just blast my use of a WND article. But, if you claim it is lying, then you need to provide PROOF of your complaints. I brought proof of mine, let's see what kind of numbers you guys can offer. Or, you can be just like mmfa and bring NO proof to back up their complaints of absurdness.
But we know that THIS stat is clearly a gross exaggeration, based upon what we DO know.
So, you raise a strawman argument, Floyd. Have you EVER contributed ANYTHING of value to this site?
Not only did I raise a straw-man argument, but it is one you can't figure out how to beat. Thanks for your support in showing that liberals don't have a clue to what they are complaining about. Bring some data to back up your claims that they are exaggerated! You make the claim, you bring the proof. I did that for mine, you can do that for yours. Unless, of course, you don't have any data. Then I would expect you to pipe-down and quit whining about a number that may very well be accurate!
May be accurate? They're reporting a statistic on television to millions of people as fact, and your best argument is that it may be accurate? So you want DellDolly and others to venture into the realm of making up statistics that "may be accurate" too? Pipe down on your support of a number that may be accurate, the evidence does not warrant your enthusiasm. As a purveyor of facts and truth, one would think you'd call into question the methods and results of this illegal immigration murder statitistic. I guess facts and truth don't matter as much if the may be accurate numbers support your argument. If the numbers didn't support your argument, you'd be hollering all over the place about the flawed methodology and unreliableness of the statistic.
I've asked many times for the number of murders that illegal immigrants commit annually. NONE of you (including mmfa) could bring ANY other number as evidence the number fox is using to be inaccurate. Fox explained how the number was arrived at (which isn't a questionable method) and states it isn't an exact number... that it is an estimate.
What the heck are you whining about? If liberals are going to whine like little girls because they think a number is incorrect, then provide a more correct number. If you can't provide a more correct number than any other estimate then you, too, should pipe down and quit your whining about something you have no clue about!
Here's a liberal analogy: If I say my best estimate is that the sun is yellow for this/that/and the other reasons, and you whine that it isn't. Then whose estimate has more credibility? Hint: only one estimate was given, the other person just whined about it.
loonz was being sarcastic in using the same method to calculate violent crimes committed abroad by United States citizens. Do you see how ridiculous it is to assume that the murder rate of a people in their home Country is the same as the murder rate for those people in another Country. Do you know that Americans committ murder at the same rate abroad as they do at home in the U.S.? Do you know that Mexicans committ murder at the same rate here as they do at home in Mexico? No, you don't know. Neither does this guy who made up a stat based on his own assumption.
Yes, only one estimate was given, an estimate based on an unsupported assumption. I don't have to give an estimate in return to know that the estimate given was based on an unsupported assumption. The end result, the actual number, it could be accurate or it could be absurd, but the assumption used to get to that number is definitely absurd.
As for the National Council of La Raza, their name does in fact mean "the race". Not only that, but they gave an award to someone who'd proposed genocide. Now, MMFA is defending them, as well as issuing smears designed to support illegal activity.
After you find the carefully hidden link, it's in paragraphs 5 and 6 of that link.
I should note however that you don't need to worry much: he only proposed the good, liberal-supported kind of genocide.
Once again we have uncovered a troll post from someone not interested in participating in a reasonable debate on the topic. He was trying to derail the thread to distract us from the actual topic.
As such, please don't continue to feed the troll.
Will you dispute these numbers: HERE , and bring numbers of your own? Or just say "troll, liar" without bringing any proof of your own? I expect the later.
Like you, this guy was looking for statistics on topic for which none were given. Specifically he wanted stats on "illegal alien murders," but came up empty handed much like you are doing with your multiple requests in the comments section of this article.
Much like you, Johnson thought made up statistics were better than no statistics at all.
The guy admits its unknown, but goes about making up stats anyway. You want DellDolly, mike, eddie, mmfa, etc. to venture into this realm as well. They have all said no thank you as will I.
Right off the bat, his attempt at making up a stat was doomed. The very basis for his made up statistic is an assumption for which he has no evidence. Indeed if he had statistics showing that the murder rates of illegal immigrants here in the US are consistent with murder rates of immigrants' home countries, then he would have the very statistics that he set out to come up with.
You harping on nobody giving you a number proves absolutely nothing as far as the validity of this guys home grown statistic. It only shows that others are not willing to get down on his level and start spouting off BS just to have a number to give you.
No, I want them (and you) to prove that the number fox is promoting is absurd as claimed by mmfa and continued by each of you. If you can't show where the number fox is using is incorrect by providing a more accurate number, then you are insinuating that NO murders occur at the hands of illegal immigrants. Until you can show that the currently used number is an "absurd estimate" then this article is a lie and you are promoting race-baiting and misinformation brought by mmfa.
This article is just another to join my long list of misinformation brought by mmfa. They bring fearmongering, race-baiting and lies and have the nerve to call it justifiable.
Hmmm kind of reminds you of the complaint about our war effort--- you say we shouldn't fight dirty against the terrorists who are fighting dirty because you think we shouldn't bring ourselves down to 'that level'. Yet, mmfa has no problem bringing themselves to the same level, that they say conservatives are at, while they make arguments against the misinformation conservatives supposedly bring.
Mmfa should grab their little balls and lift themselves up to a more respectable level, instead of continual lying, fearmongering and providing misinformation as they claim the right wing is doing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Neither MMFA nor any commenters here need to prove that the number is off, the method used to arrive at the number is off. It is absurd. For you not to realize that the way the guy arrived at his stat is illogical and based on fallacy either speaks to your ignorance, your blind support of an argument, or both. If the number happens to be accurate, which you admit it may not be, then it would be by luck and not because this guy used a solid method to come up with the stat.
Not giving you a stat is in absolutely no way saying that no murders were comitted by illegal immigrants. For you to even come out of your mouth like that shows exactly what a hack you are. That accusation doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Nobody here is claiming that there were zero murders comitted by illegal immigrants. You show yourself to be clown by making a statement like that.
You repeatedly saying this guys methodology is valid does not make it right. You repeatedly asking for a number proves nothing other than you expect people to stoop to your level and use faulty methods to come up with a BS number.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States
You did the same ABSURD thing the guy did, you assumed the murder rate in Mexico is the same as the murder rate for illegal immigrant Mexicans here in the United States. You've been told multiple times what is ABSURD about it, yet you continue to ask why are we calling it absurd. Do you think the murder rate for Americans here in the U.S. is the same as the murder rate for Americans abroad in other countries?
So, let me explain. If you go to the link above and look in paragraph 5, you'll see the following:
In 1994, they gave their "Chicano Hero Award" to the person who'd made this statement years earlier (more on him here, here, and here)
The link above is the same as the link on the page, and if you click that link you'll find the person's name. The three "here"s have links to other sites.
So, there's no less than four links about that quote at the link I put in my first comment. It's quite surprising that no one was able to find them, despite being in red and everything.
Well, when you get done on your porn sites, check out FACTS before you whine about someone else. Here's an analogy you might understand (but I think not): If an ignoramus reads an article and can't figure out how to click on a link, is he a complete ignoramus or just a partial one?
Tell us again how patriotic Exxon was for paying taxes internationally while using Caribbean tax shelters to avoid paying any US taxes. That was my favorite. Second only to you bragging about your complete ignorance of the basics of our American progressive tax system. Hint: if you are in a higher tax bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the money within that bracket. Do you understand that yet? No? Then I think we have found our ignoramus.
Hey, there seems to be quite a history there... mmfa doesn't bring facts, dell doesn't bring facts and mike doesn't bring facts. The only one bringing FACTS is me.
BTW, could you answer the question neither mmfa or dell would answer? How many murders are committed by illegal immigrants annually?
I love that you are still braggin about your ignorance of the progressive tax system. You still don't get it? Even the most basic of basics? And you still seem proud of it. Please continue. How do you think the progressive tax system works in this country? How is the higher rate paid on a higher income earner?
I see you still can't bring any proof of your statements to a discussion. We'll have to start calling you 'nuthin-mike', since you add nuthin to every discussion you attend.
This is from the web site link he gave you. It isn't rocket science to be able to peruse the internet.
Jose Angel Gutierrez--“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.â€
I take it 'getting an education' wasn't one of your prime objectives in life?
Well ... duhh! So, now you believe that quote? Just before, you questioned the use of it. Why do you flip-flop so much? Do you accept the quote or not?
Wait, maybe YOU could research that quote and give us the entire context. Oh, I forget ... you are 'nuthin-mike', you never bring anything to a discussion.
Do you need more? ALL are attributed to the evil Angel.
Do you know how many murders are committed by illegal immigrants annually?
The point is, that since NO ONE knows the correct number, how is an "estimate" to be considered "absurd"? If you can't prove the absurdity of the number then you can't claim it is absurd. Which makes this another article of misinformation brought by mmfa.
And would that "lucky guess" be considered "absurd"? Or is any guess absurd, in your world?
The point, (I think) is that there are murders being committed by illegal immigrants. The exact number isn't important. The important thing is that we (Americans) should find a way to reduce whatever number it is. Do you agree?
How many good white Americans has this award winning genocidal maniac killed... oh yeah, ZERO in the last 40+ years since he supposedly made the statement you take as a Jihad against white America.
Good thing no white Americans have won any awards since then that were members of the KKK or anything like that... oh darn, they have been Senators and Representatives and more... oops.
Nice try at demonizing the immigrant... please come play again. You fell for the faked news story about ACORN helping a fake pimp also, didn't you? Why not... it was a reasonable thing to do considering they lied to you for political reasons. They showed video! That's even better than your sources. At least they provided some proof, even though they left out the rest of the story that debunked what they were trying to show.
Media Matters carefully and succinctly repudiates all of the baseless accusations, and you simply ignore them, claiming that "MMFA finds a new low...." Your argument is simplistically stating a peripheral matter, ignoring the main issue. Pathetic!
What evidence did mmfa bring that repudiates ANY baseless accusations? I saw NO numbers brought by mmfa that show the number of murders annually by illegal immigrants is incorrectly reported by fox. Perhaps I missed that link, can you provide another one, so others can enjoy the FACTS that mmfa DID NOT BRING!
Yes, why is mmfa even printing this article? It's obvious there are no true numbers, only estimates. So, what part of the estimate is "absurd"?
I can't. Which goes to prove that mmfa is providing misinformation by saying the number is "absurd". Your guess isn't exact, but I don't whine that it is "absurd". Neither should you or mmfa concerning murder numbers. The danger is real and you are promoting the support of violent criminals. Why do you support Mexicans murdering Americans?
You really don't think someone who doesn't know you, suggesting with no evidence, that you have kidnapped 25 women is "absurd?" Just...really?
I know you don't believe this. You can't possibly. Which either makes you terrified of ever admitting a mistake, or a complete troll. Either way, you have proven that you are not willing to have a reasonable debate, and you are no longer worth talking to.
Say, any ideas as to why MMFA is sticking up for massive illegal activity?
There I go feeding the troll after I said stop feeding the troll. But that was bait I couldn't pass up biting on...
Wish he was a "lone" wacko--he may be alone, but he's got plenty of wacko company churning out spurious claims and quotes from which others can then post links to prove wacky non-truths.
Beautiful illustration of right-wing math and statistics. And you wonder why no one reasonable takes you guys seriously.
mmfa-- "Actual studies have found that immigrants in general are less likely to be incarcerated and that there is no evidence that undocumented immigrants commit a disproportionate amount of crime."
numbers in dispute-- assumed that pre-existing crime rate would continue outside of Mexico at the same rate as they happen inside of Mexico. Hence the word: estimate
Now, mmfa has the nerve to say there are "Actual studies" that found different numbers. What are those studies? What are those numbers? If there are actual studies out there that mmfa is using to dispute the number fox is using, then it is THEIR responsibility to bring that evidence. NONE has been brought.
Then they claim there is no evidence of disproportionate crime rates. Which the numbers used as a preface (same crime rate---not different). The numbers given use the same crime rate as a guide to achieve those numbers. Mmfa says they shouldn't have used disproportionate crime rates. Mmfa is wrong for saying the numbers are "absurd" because fox used the method that mmfa stated as a requirement.
FOX is on a roll trying to whip up the anti immigration movement... that is a given. This article makes it a given. They latch onto a concept and shake it like a pit bull with a chew toy well past the point of common sense.
IF there was ANY significant number of murders by illegals that crossed over from South America, then FOX would be blasting every single name of every single person accused of murder that had a name that even vaguely sounded South American. With over a thousand a year that would be several DIFFERENT cases being reported on a DAY. I think it wouldn't be to difficult to connect murder convictions with people scheduled for deportation upon release... that would give you a starting point in reality for determining a number.
We do know that motor vehicles directly cause the deaths of over 35K Americans a year... I say we round them all up and deport them! That would solve a lot of our problems while creating a bunch more... much like moving a huge percentage of the work force out of the US. That ain't going to happen... and they aren't going to be legalized en masse because the corporations employing them do NOT want them legalized. If they were, they'd have to pay them more, treat them fairly etc...
This is actually about holding everyone's wages down that actually does WORK for a living. If we opened the borders like they were before the Chinese Exclusion Act (the real reason there are border crossings with Mexico and Canada), made it legal for anyone to work in the US as long as they were treated under the SAME rules as everyone else, we'd see every workers wages go up... along with more companies outsourcing to countries where they could continue to exploit workers outside our standards.
I think we should move back to charging tariffs on imports to fund our government like the Constitution says, thus reducing direct tax loads on the US citizen, and making production of goods in the US a good business model. I don't care who is doing the work in the US as long as they are here... that means they are spending the majority of their money here on food/shelter/transportation/entertainment. Move the jobs out of the country because we moved the work force out and it's a lose lose.
Suck down that kool aid of immigrants being bad... the mega corps thank you.
Wow, I wondered why you would support Mexican murderers, now I know why. Because you support American murderers also. Why do you hate the crime victim?
I don't think I can use these stats; here , can I? You wouldn't want to think that "disproportionate" numbers are more accurate than "proportionate" (like the kind that mmfa feels are needed). Especially FACTUAL numbers that can be verified. Numbers that show a disproportionate number of illegals are in prison in direct relationship to it's population.
There's also a stat about the Mexicans receiving welfare compared to when they are 'home' and 'away'. I definitely think you won't like to read those stats ;)
But, if you ever get the urge to do any research yourself. I bet you'll see why Arizona wants to control their state boundaries. You don't want Arizona to protect their own citizens do you? Aren't you one of those people who clamor for 'more illegal immigrant rights'?
Isn't that another aspect of the liberal theology; give criminals more rights? I guess the compassion part of your theology only counts toward murderers and rapists. Great theology you follow, there.
The more research I do on this subject the worse it gets for you people. How can you even argue in support of murderers and rapists?
President Obama's Aunt is the half-sister of President Obama's Father, who was absent MOST of President Obama's life and died in 1992.
President Obama did not learn of his Aunt's Visa troubles till the 2008 Presidential campaign. And considering President Obama had little or no contact with his Father, there was no relationship with his Father's sister.
And really, try telling the freaking truth for once!
IF President Obama got involved in his Aunt's Visa troubles, you'd be the first person, after Limbo and Glenda and the other screeching loonies, screaming "he's trying to get his illegal Aunt into the country without going through the proper channels". And when President Obama's stays out of his Aunt's troubles, you turn around and whine "he's throwing her under the bus".
The truth no matter what President Obama does, you're going to come up with some asinine reason to be against it!
FYI!
Many people INCORRECTLY translate the name, "La Raza," as "the race." While it is true that ONE meaning of "RAZA" in SPANISH is indeed "race," in Spanish, as in English and any other language, words CAN and DO have MUTIPLE meaning. As noted in several online dictionaries. "La Raza" means "THE PEOPLE" or "THE COMMUNITY." Translating the name as "the race" is not only INACCCURATE, it is FACTUALLY INCORRECT. "Hispanic" is an ethnicity, not a race. As anyone who has ever met a Dominican American, Mexican American, or a Spanish American can attest, Hispanics can be and are members of any and all races.
pearline-- As for the National Council of La Raza, their name does in fact mean "the race".
Thank you for that long tirade, then agreeing with what you are arguing against.
We all need to make some assumptions, but patently (and self evidently) absurd ones like, "A racial sub-group in America will behave exactly the same as their home country does as a whole," should pretty much cause you to STOP RIGHT THERE and maybe try for something a little less laughable.
How can ANYONE assume that a group of people who either (1) have the MEANS to travel, (2) Are FLEEING said culture of violenece and crime, or (3) are actuively looking for a better job / opportunity / life, would be ANYTHING like the general population of an otherwise impoverished, crime ridden country? That's just absurd. Do Americans living abroad commit the same level of crime as we see in America? Of course not. The very idea is patently absurd right on its face!
--------------------------------------------------
How stupid are these people?
-or-
How stupid do they think WE are?
And you have proof of that? Well ... do ya?!?
When I lived abroad (for three years) and when I travel, I committed/commit fewer crimes than I do when I'm at home, in the continetial U.S. And since - as the analysis assumes - individuals act the exact same way as their home conrtry does, we can then assume that ALL Amercians must act as I do.
So there you go: "Proof" that's every bit as absurd as the point I was refuting. (What's sad is that the original author doesn't realize that he sounds every bit as absurd as my parody of "logic.")
----------------------------------------------
LOL
Unless, you're just like dell, mike, eddie and mmfa ... they all could not provide any numbers to refute those already provided.
THAT isn't the issue. The issue is whether those numbers are "absurd" as claimed in this article. So, yes, you have to show how those numbers are absurd if you are going to make that claim. The numbers have been rightly said to be estimates. But, mmfa says they are "absurd". Show proof of that. How many murders are committed by illegal immigrants annually? Until you can show the absurdity of those numbers with evidence, then they are NOT absurd.
Do you know whether the murder rate for Mexicans in Mexico is the same or close to the murder rate for illegal immigrant Mexicans here in the United States? If it cannot be supported that those two murder rates are the same or similar, then his assumption that they are the same or similar is absurd. He based his statistic off of those two murder rates being the same or similar, what proof or evidence does he present that they are even close?
Until you can realize that the guys assumption was absurd, you're never going to get it and will keep asking the same dumb a$$ question about providing a competing statistic. Even the guy himself admits there are not statistics available. So he made one up based off his own dumb ASSumption.
No, you haven't. You haven't even tried to show that. You don't even know how he arrived at those numbers. In fact, you are obviously incapable of researching data you don't want to know the answer to. Do you know why? Because you can't handle the truth.
You can't handle the fact that Arizona residents live in fear for their lives from Mexican drug lords and YOU people seem to think it is a joke! You people are whining about violent criminals crossing into the US and you are trying your best to protect them and their right to murder as many LEGAL citizens as possible.
You haven't a clue what's going on in those states! You are sheeple saying what a bunch of idiots tell you to say. I don't think you have the capability of independent thought. Do you? No, I didn't think so, you just parrot whatever mmfa or somebody else tells you to parrot. You are VERY good at that.
Like you, this guy was looking for statistics on topic for which none were given. Specifically he wanted stats on "illegal alien murders," but came up empty handed much like you are doing with your multiple requests in the comments section of this article.
Much like you, Johnson thought made up statistics were better than no statistics at all.
The guy admits its unknown, but goes about making up stats anyway. You want DellDolly, mike, eddie, mmfa, etc. to venture into this realm as well. They have all said no thank you as will I.
Right off the bat, his attempt at making up a stat was doomed. The very basis for his made up statistic is an assumption for which he has no evidence. Indeed if he had statistics showing that the murder rates of illegal immigrants here in the US are consistent with murder rates of immigrants' home countries, then he would have the very statistics that he set out to come up with.
You harping on nobody giving you a number proves absolutely nothing as far as the validity of this guys home grown statistic. It only shows that others are not willing to get down on his level and start spouting off BS just to have a number to give you.
"Unless, you're just like dell, mike, eddie and mmfa ... they all could not provide any numbers to refute those already provided."
Dude - I don't HAVE to provide a number! I don't have to know the RIGHT answer to know that an aswer that's being given is WORNG, epecially when it's just plain STUPID. (Of the top of my head I don't know what 327 x 62 is, but I'll still know you're wrong if you tell me the aswer is 5!) Not every statement deserves a full-scientific investigation you know, and not every wrong answer needs to be refuted with the "right" answer!
Refresh said it best: Since you have such strong animosity against making stuff up, why are you not speaking out against the 2,158 statistic mentioned in this article
The best answer, as far as I can see is: The 2158 number serves your agenda, and was given by a news source that serves your world-view, while I'm a liberal who you often disagree with, so you're gonna try and bust my balls over minutia.
If you think that American Tourists and Ex-Pat's abroad have the same violent crime rate as ALL Americans do at home, then you are damned fool. And I don't need to do a study to prove that, and I shouldn't need to spell it out for you. THAT GROUP has a lower crime rate, even when THEY are here at home.
As for this whole "Then tell us how any of those murders are acceptable in this nation?" Oh pul-lease, stop being such a drama queen. While no murders are "acceptable," this "point" is comepletly irreleavnt to the post and to the statistic it questioned. If you're trying to make the argument that we need to get rid of the illegals because of "crime" that would pretty much fall apart if their crime rate were in fact LOWER than the crime rate of Aemricans here at home, no? Now one could do a study to find out, but what you cannot do is just make stuff up, based on patently absrud assumptions, and expect to be taken seriously byanyone with to brain cells to knock together.
----------------------------------------------
And again, I shouldn't have to spell that out for you. Why do you insist on being difficult when you know I'm right?
But, if you're going to whine that the wrong answer is "absurd" then you have to provide proof of that whine. I didn't make the claim the numbers are absurd, mmfa did. All I'm stating is they can't make that claim until they have proof the numbers are absurd.
327 x 62 = 20274
However, if I had said an estimate of that answer was 19,865 would that answer be "ABSURD"? If so, why?
As for you math question? No, that would be a perfectly reasonable estimate. But there's a reason for that: it's slightly bigger than 300 x 60, which I CAN quickly do in my head: 18,000. I could figure it out further, I suppose, but if we're just making broad estimates on a discussion baord, I'd accept that number and move on. But there is a BASIS for doing so in that case, and there is NOT one for accepting the 2,158 figure, especially in light of how it was figger'd.
-------------------------------------
IMHO
I printed this earlier to another poster. Will this calculation work for you?
Well, wiki has it at around 14 per 100K between 2000-2004. So... there are an estimated 13 million illegals in America. Divide that by 100,000 and you get 130. Times that by 14 and you have an estimated 1820 murders annually by illegals. 2154 is what the "absurd estimate" is. Now, just what makes it ABSURD??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States
On the other hand, they're not as offended by the amount of jobs that are outsourced, vs. the amount of jobs that illegal immigrants take in the US. Very selective outrage.
A million die from abortion each year. Do you support that kind of murder also? You support Mexican murderers and American murderers. What kind of murderer do you NOT support? Is that a 'liberal' thing or just your own low opinion of legal citizens?
A group of Mexicans have a guy surrounded who they intend to kill:
"How many we have left, Homes?"
"Nosotros 2,157."
"Ay! Today is your lucky day amigo. You just aint worth it. We gonna save our last kill for just in case we really need it."
Figurin' is hard work.
~
Which is why you'll NEVER see a liberal doing it! Go figure!
But, just in case we have a rare liberal who actually can use google: how many murders are committed by illegal immigrants annually?
So... that guy ON FOX says "it's unkown" but you think plugging it into GOOGLE will give you the answer?! THAT'S what you call, 'research?!'
Dude - it's better to remain quiet and be though a fool than to speak (or post) and remove all doubt.
So let's see... I got an anti-imigration Republican Senator who said it's 4,380, with 4,745 killed by illegal alein drink driver's without a licnse. (I'm sure that's an objective source.) I got a web stie called "illegalaleiens.com" (I'm sure that's an objective source.) OTOH... Google answers said "We don't know." (Which, when you don't, is the wisest, most intelligent thing you can say.) The information is either NOT AVAILABLE, or or LOWER than the estimate given on Fox. That's the only reason to make somethign up that's a s absurd as what they did: Either the couldn't find out, but still want to give a number, or the REAL number refuted their point.
But considering the extensive crime statistics our government keeps, I'm pretty confident this is not a known number. I'm also pretty confident, given that the crime rate in border towns is on the DECLINE, even as the ILLEGAL population soars, that the rate is far LESS that in their country or in America in general.
Correlation is not sufficent to demonstrate causality - but it's still REQUIRED.
---------------------------------------------------
Enjoy your ride on teh Failboat.
Who cares what you're confident of? The issue is whether the numbers brought are "absurd" or not. Quit your whining about "the" number, and focus on the actual point-- what is absurd about them?
BTW, "the" is spelled t-h-e
Not when you're being sarcastic on the internet it isn't!
(Quick everybody! Look at the guy doesn't understand sarcasm and laugh at him!)
You're lack of faith in my "confidence" is immaterial. Why don't you try posing an alternative hypothesis to explain why they used some made-up b*llsh!t if actual data was avialable? (And I've have already explained, thoroughly, WHY it's an absurd assumption. You just saying "nuh-uh" does not constitute a counter-point.)
Back to the issue of actual DATA: Why LIE (or just make stuff up) if the TRUTH will support your argument?
There is simply no rational reason to do this.
So logically...
Either the data does not exsist, or it does not support their argument.
----------------------------------------
I'd gladly entertain a third option, but it's up to you to comes up with one for us to discuss.
However, if there was some data available to disprove your contention, I would bring it to the discussion on my kidnapping habits. It would be my responsibility to prove what I claim. Since mmfa is decidedly liberal they follow the liberal mantra of 'no personal responsibility' ... so, they bring no proof of their claim that a particular data is "absurd".
To my point, it is irrelevant if they commit crimes more or less disproportionately, if they contribute to the economy more or less than the benefit from our services - these are all just manipulated figures that proponents and opponents use to back up their argument.
The only argument relevant are our laws. We should be enforcing our borders as securely as possible with the latest and greatest manpower and technology available, to the letter of the law. This is our federal government's responsibility. It is also their responsibility to prosecute employers who hire illegals to the fullest extent of the law.
There is nothing racist or xenophobic about wanting our laws enforced and our borders secure. All this battling back and forth with statistics on the pros and cons of illegal immigration is missing the point and nothing but a delaying distraction by those with their own agendas. Stop with the agendas. Enforce our laws.
As a result of the raid, life in Postville has been disrupted for the rest of the community as a knock-on of cessation of local spending by the illegals.
Similar raids by ICE: Pilgrim’s Pride; Del Monte Produce; Swift and Company; Smithfield Foods. Are Americans willing to pay higher prices due to paying a fair wage for the rather odious jobs at these employers? Alternatively, will the employers move off-shore? Were that "enforce our laws" would suffice: it's a very complex issue.
Sorry, if the laws are bad, or overly disruptive or intrusive or whatever, then change the laws. We just don't stop enforcing them.
The issue is complex because we've allowed it to become complex, i.e. you should fix your car when you hear the knocking sound not when it's on fire.
The working class of this country shouldn't have to compete with a group that has no employee rights. It's impossible. There should be a simple and constitutional way to verify one's right to work, and we should tell employers that we're going to implement this system over the next few years.
*found on Wiki...
Actually using the silly logic of FSM the murder rate is 37% less than 1991. SO an assumption can be made that the influx of illegal Mexicans has REDUCED the murder rate.
If he can just make stuff up without legitimate research, so can I.
Furthermore, as I reported before, if this report were true, we would see much higher rates of violent crime in the states with the highest unauthorized immigration populations. Again, the ten states with the highest unauthorized populations have violent crime rates that are at the national average, and lower than the 8 states in the South that don't border Mexico.
This report is absurd on its face, and is just another example of the "Big Lie" propaganda that is used to demonize and dehumanize certain groups of people, so that we can all feel warm and cozy as we watch our governments round them up like dogs. I swear, we've made no progress in this nation. This is scapegoating pure and simple. I think we should boycott Fox "News".
The only ones supporting Fox News are their blind faithful who are either too dumb to realize or to unethical to care that they are not a legit news organization.
BTW, does that boycott include other FOX programs? Can I still watch The Simpsons? And NASCAR? Oh, I like football too, can I watch football on FOX?
If that sole assertion by the Cal Public Policy Institution is not a total dismissal of the charges against immigrants then people like Floyd are blind with racism. Truth is that any 'high profile crime' committed by an immigrant would have an out of bounds diffusion in the media due to racism, and most likely we don't hear that. Inversely, we hear a lot of these people being beaten up or killed by people filled with hatred... like Floyd?