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Media ran with now-retracted attack on IPCC in their assault on global warming science

June 30, 2010 1:39 pm ET — 64 Comments

Numerous media outlets seized on a dubious January London Sunday Times report which claimed that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) 2007 statement on Amazon rain forests was "unsubstantiated" and without scientific basis in order to attack the IPCC's credibility and global warming science in general. However, The Sunday Times has now retracted that claim, noting, "In fact, the IPCC's Amazon statement is supported by peer-reviewed scientific evidence." Will these media outlets follow suit?

In attack on IPCC, Sunday Times claimed in January that IPCC's Amazon statement was based on "unsubstantiated claim"

Sunday Times ran with global warming skeptic's attacks on IPCC's Amazon statement. As RealClimate.org noted, The Sunday Times' attack on IPCC's statement that 40 percent of the Amazon rain forests are highly sensitive to reductions in rainfall originated on the blog EUReferendum -- which, as Fox News has noted, is "a blog skeptical of global warming." RealClimate reported that "[t]he roots of the story are in two blog pieces by [EUReferendum's Richard] North." The blog posts referenced by RealClimate were published on January 25 and January 26. From RealClimate:

[Times reporter Jonathan] Leake (yet again), with "research" by skeptic Richard North, has also promoted "Amazongate" with a story regarding a WG2 statement on the future of Amazonian forests under a drying climate.  The contested IPCC statement reads: "Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state, not necessarily producing gradual changes between the current and the future situation (Rowell and Moore, 2000)."  Leake's problem is with the Rowell and Moore reference, a WWF report.

The roots of the story are in two blog pieces by North, in which he first claims that the IPCC assertions attributed to the WWF report are not actually in that report. Since this claim was immediately shown to be false,  North then argued that the WWF report's basis for their statement (a 1999 Nature article by Nepstad et al.) dealt only with the effects of logging and fire -not drought- on Amazonian forests.

On January 31, The Sunday Times published an article titled, "UN climate panel shamed by bogus rainforest claim" -- which, as RealClimate noted, used "research" from North. From The Sunday Times:

A STARTLING report by the United Nations climate watchdog that global warming might wipe out 40% of the Amazon rainforest was based on an unsubstantiated claim by green campaigners who had little scientific expertise.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said in its 2007 benchmark report that even a slight change in rainfall could see swathes of the rainforest rapidly replaced by savanna grassland.

The source for its claim was a report from WWF, an environmental pressure group, which was authored by two green activists. They had based their "research" on a study published in Nature, the science journal, which did not assess rainfall but in fact looked at the impact on the forest of human activity such as logging and burning. This weekend WWF said it was launching an internal inquiry into the study.

[...]

The latest controversy originates in a report called A Global Review of Forest Fires, which WWF published in 2000. It was commissioned from Andrew Rowell, a freelance journalist and green campaigner who has worked for Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and anti-smoking organisations. The second author was Peter Moore, a campaigner and policy analyst with WWF.

In their report they suggested that "up to 40% of Brazilian rainforest was extremely sensitive to small reductions in the amount of rainfall" but made clear that this was because drier forests were more likely to catch fire.

The IPCC report picked up this reference but expanded it to cover the whole Amazon. It also suggested that a slight reduction in rainfall would kill many trees directly, not just by contributing to more fires.

It said: "Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state.

It is more probable that forests will be replaced by ecosystems that have more resistance to multiple stresses caused by temperature increase, droughts and fires, such as tropical savannas."


Sunday Times has now retracted claim that IPCC's Amazon forest statement was "unsubstantiated" and not based on peer-reviewed research

Sunday Times: "In fact, the IPCC's Amazon statement is supported by peer-reviewed scientific evidence." As RealClimate noted, on June 20, The Sunday Times retracted the claim in its January 31 article that IPCC's Amazon report was based on an "unsubstantiated claim by green campaigners who had little scientific expertise." The Times wrote in its retraction, "In fact, the IPCC's Amazon statement is supported by peer-reviewed scientific evidence." From The Sunday Times' retraction, which was republished by RealClimate:

The article "UN climate panel shamed by bogus rainforest claim" (News, Jan 31) stated that the 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report had included an "unsubstantiated claim" that up to 40% of the Amazon rainforest could be sensitive to future changes in rainfall. The IPCC had referenced the claim to a report prepared for the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) by Andrew Rowell and Peter Moore, whom the article described as "green campaigners" with "little scientific expertise." The article also stated that the authors' research had been based on a scientific paper that dealt with the impact of human activity rather than climate change.

In fact, the IPCC's Amazon statement is supported by peer-reviewed scientific evidence. In the case of the WWF report, the figure had, in error, not been referenced, but was based on research by the respected Amazon Environmental Research Institute (IPAM) which did relate to the impact of climate change. We also understand and accept that Mr Rowell is an experienced environmental journalist and that Dr Moore is an expert in forest management, and apologise for any suggestion to the contrary.

Times' report was disputed well before retraction. Critics of the IPCC claimed that the IPCC erred because it cited a WWF report that said 40 percent of the Amazon rainforest is susceptible to drought; the critics said WWF came to that conclusion by misrepresenting a 1999 study in the journal Nature. But Daniel Nepstad, a co-author of the Nature study, has said that "the IPCC statement on the Amazon was correct," and more recent peer-reviewed research also supports the data.

Nature study author: "[T]he IPCC statement on the Amazon was correct." In response to the criticism of the IPCC, Nepstad -- who co-authored the Nature study the WWF report cited -- wrote:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has been recently criticized in media coverage (e.g. Sunday Times) for presenting inaccurate information on the susceptibility of the forests of the Amazon Basin to rainfall reduction in its fourth assessment. The statement that has drawn the criticism reads as follows:

"Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state, not necessarily producing gradual changes between the current and the future situation (Rowell and Moore, 2000)." (IPCC 2007, Magrin et al. 2007)

The Rowell and Moore review report [the WWF report] that is cited as the basis of this IPCC statement cites an article that we published in the journal Nature in 1999 as the source for the following statement:

"Up to 40% of the Brazilian forest is extremely sensitive to small reductions in the amount of rainfall. In the 1998 dry season, some 270,000 sq. km of forest became vulnerable to fire, due to completely depleted plant-available water stored in the upper five metres of soil. A further 360,000 sq. km of forest had only 250 mm of plant-available soil water left.[Nepstad et al. 1999]" (Rowell and Moore 2000)

The IPCC statement on the Amazon is correct, but the citations listed in the Rowell and Moore report were incomplete. (The authors of this report interviewed several researchers, including the author of this note, and had originally cited the IPAM website where the statement was made that 30 to 40% of the forests of the Amazon were susceptible to small changes in rainfall).

[...]

After the Rowell and Moore report was released in 2000, and prior to the publication of the IPCC AR4, new evidence of the full extent of severe drought in the Amazon was available. In 2004, we estimated that half of the forest area of the Amazon Basin had either fallen below, or was very close to, the critical level of soil moisture below which trees begin to die in 1998. This estimate incorporated new rainfall data and results from an experimental reduction of rainfall in an Amazon forest that we had conducted with funding from the US National Science Foundation (Nepstad et al. 2004). Field evidence of the soil moisture critical threshold is presented in Nepstad et al. 2007.

In sum, the IPCC statement on the Amazon was correct. The report that is cited in support of the IPCC statement (Rowell and Moore 2000) omitted some citations in support of the 40% value statement.

RealClimate: Amazon "issue" is "completely without merit." In its February 14 post on "IPCC errors: facts and spin," Real Climate noted that claims that the IPCC statement on Amazon forest dieback are false are "completely without merit." RealClimate noted that Nepstad has said that the IPCC was correct and stated the "only issue is that the IPCC cited the WWF report rather than the underlying peer-reviewed papers by Nepstad et al. These studies actually provide the basis for the IPCC's estimate on Amazonian sensitivity to drought."

Media ran with initial problematic Sunday Times report to attack IPCC and global warming science

FoxNews.com ran with skeptic blog's claim in reporting IPCC's Amazon statement "was discredited ... when it emerged that the findings were based on numbers from a study ... that had nothing to do with the issue of global warming." In a January 28 article, FoxNews.com reported that the IPCC's Amazon forest "assertion was discredited this week when it emerged that the findings were based on numbers from a study by the World Wildlife Federation that had nothing to do with the issue of global warming -- and that was written by a freelance journalist and green activist." FoxNews.com noted that "EUReferendum, a blog skeptical of global warming, uncovered the WWF association." From FoxNews.com:

In the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4), issued in 2007 by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), scientists wrote that 40 percent of the Amazon rainforest in South America was endangered by global warming.

But that assertion was discredited this week when it emerged that the findings were based on numbers from a study by the World Wildlife Federation that had nothing to do with the issue of global warming -- and that was written by a freelance journalist and green activist.

The IPCC report states that "up to 40 percent of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation" -- highlighting the threat climate change poses to the Earth. The report goes on to say that "it is more probable that forests will be replaced by ecosystems ... such as tropical savannas."

But it has now been revealed that the claim was based on a WWF study titled "Global Review of Forest Fires," a paper barely related to the Amazon rainforest that was written "to secure essential policy reform at national and international level to provide a legislative and economic base for controlling harmful anthropogenic forest fires."

EUReferendum, a blog skeptical of global warming, uncovered the WWF association. It noted that the original "40 percent" figure came from a letter published in the journal Nature that discussed harmful logging activities -- and again had  nothing to do with global warming.

Gateway Pundit: "They fudged the rain forest data too!" In a January 30 Gateway Pundit post, Jim Hoft linked to the January 28 FoxNews.com article and wrote, "They fudged the rain forest data too!"

Barone cited Times' report in attack on global warming science. In a February 4 column titled, "How Climate-Change Fanatics Corrupted Science," Michael Barone wrote: "[T]he Times of London reports that a claim that warming could endanger 'up to 40 percent' of the Amazon rainforest came from an anti-smoking activist and had no scientific basis whatever."

Portland Press Herald: IPCC's Amazon statement "based on anecdotal reports rather than a scientific study." A February 5 Portland Press Herald column advancing numerous "Climategate" falsehoods stated that "it was revealed" that the IPCC's "attribution of 'deforestation of the Amazon rainforest' to global warming was also based on anecdotal reports rather than a scientific study."

Providence Journal: Amazon report "a propaganda case that would produce the policy outcome the United Nations and the IPCC want." On February 7, the Providence Journal published a column (accessed via Nexis) by National Post columnist Lorne Gunter stating: "Another revelation of malfeasance was the discovery that the chapter on Amazon rainforests in the IPCC s AR4, the one that included the often-repeated claim that 40 percent of the forest is under imminent threat from climate change, was written not by climate scientists but by a policy analyst who works for environmental groups and a freelance environmental author." Gunter further claimed that "it was written to present not the latest dispassionate scientific data but a propaganda case that would produce the policy outcome the United Nations and the IPCC want. It confirmed that the United Nations is a player for one side, not the source for objective facts."

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: IPCC's Amazon "reference isn't tied to peer-reviewed science but to a report by an environmental advocacy group." A February 8 Pittsburgh Tribune-Review editorial -- titled, "Global smoke" -- stated that "the 2007 IPCC assertion that climate change threatens up to 40 percent of the Amazon rain forest. The Sunday Telegraph [sic] of London reports the reference isn't tied to peer-reviewed science but to a report by an environmental advocacy group, the World Wildlife Fund, which focused on the detriments from logging." The Tribune-Review did note, "Proponents insist the climate claim is sound."

Wash. Times advanced Amazon claim in asserting IPCC "invented" facts. In a February 11 editorial, The Washington Times wrote that "[t]he global warming fraud is without equal in modern science" and that the IPCC's 2007 report on climate change "invented a large number of purported facts." To support its claim, the Times wrote, in part:

Up to 40 percent of the Amazon rain forest was said to be at risk because of rising global temperatures. Again, the U.N. didn't cite any academic studies but merely one non-refereed report authored by two non-scientists, one of whom worked for the World Wildlife Fund, an activist organization.

BigGovernment cited Times article to attack IPCC. In a February 11 post on BigGovernment.com, John Lott wrote of "some of the false claims in the 2007 IPCC report" and stated: "The IPCC warned that up to 40 percent of the Amazon rain forest might be wiped out by global warming, but the sole source for that claim was a non-refereed report authored by two people who the Sunday Times of London referred to as 'two green activists,' one of them with the World Wildlife Fund."

WSJ's Stephens: IPCC's Amazon claim "turn[ed] out to be totally bogus." On the February 13 edition of Fox News' Journal Editorial Report (accessed via Nexis), The Wall Street Journal's Bret Stephens stated that the IPCC "claimed that global warming would destroy 40 percent of the Amazon Rain Forest also or could do it in just a few years. And those turn out to be totally bogus. It turns out that the IPCC relies, for studies -- relies for evidence from studies from environmental pressure groups."

Post and Courier: IPCC's Amazon statement an "alarmist report." A February 15 Charleston (SC) Post and Courier editorial (accessed via Nexis) stated: "British newspapers also found that an alarmist report on deforestation in the Amazon, cited in the Fourth Assessment as a consequence of climate change, was drafted by the non-expert staff of an environmental lobby group writing about man-made fires, not environmental damage."

WSJ directly quoted the Times in attacking IPCC's reports as "sloppy political documents intended to drive the climate lobby's regulatory agenda." The Wall Street Journal editorial board claimed on February 16 that the IPCC's reports "are sloppy political documents intended to drive the climate lobby's regulatory agenda." To support this claim, the Journal cited "news that an IPCC claim that global warming could destroy 40% of the Amazon was based on a report by an environmental pressure group." The editorial further stated:

Take the rain forest claim. In its 2007 report, the IPCC wrote that "up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state."

But as Jonathan Leake of London's Sunday Times reported last month, those claims were based on a report from the World Wildlife Fund, which in turn had fundamentally misrepresented a study in the journal Nature. The Nature study, Mr. Leake writes, "did not assess rainfall but in fact looked at the impact on the forest of human activity such as logging and burning."

American Spectator: IPCC's Amazon claim "turns out to have been based ... not on any scientific, peer-reviewed studies." In a February 17 American Spectator "Special Report" titled, "The Disappearing Science of Global Warming," Peter Ferrara wrote:

The 2007 IPCC report, which, remember, won a Nobel Prize, also claimed that global warming threatened up to 40% of the beloved Amazon rain forest, allegedly because it is extremely sensitive to even modest decreases in rainfall that supposedly may result from warming. That turns out to have been based, again, not on any scientific, peer-reviewed studies, but on a magazine article by two non-scientists, one being an environmental activist who has worked for the World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace.

WSJ op-ed: "IPCC has backed away from" its statement on Amazon forests. In a February 21 Wall Street Journal op-ed, L. Gordon Crovitz wrote:

Some journalistic digging into the 2007 U.N. climate change report revealed that its most quoted predictions were based on dubious sources. The IPCC now admits that its prediction that the Himalayan glaciers might disappear by 2035 was a mistake, based on an inaccurate citation to the World Wildlife Foundation. This advocacy group was also the basis for a claim the IPCC has backed away from -- that up to 40% of the Amazon is endangered.

Richmond Times-Dispatch: "Erroneous" Amazon report based on "material produced by environmental advocacy groups." In a February 22 editorial, the Richmond Times-Dispatch stated: "In recent weeks it has come to light that the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change based some of its claims about the 'unequivocal' case for global warming not on rigorous scientific evidence, but on material produced by environmental advocacy groups." The Times-Dispatch further wrote that "[t]he IPCC relied on a report from the World Wildlife Fund to assert, erroneously, that global warming could destroy up to 40 percent of the Amazon rainforest."

Charlotte Observer op-ed: "Alarmist" IPCC Amazon claim "unsubstantiated in peer-reviewed literature." In a February 24 Charlotte Observer op-ed, Roy Cordato of the John Locke Foundation wrote that "alarmist claims from the IPCC" about Amazon rain forests are "unsubstantiated in peer-reviewed literature." 

Buchanan: IPCC Amazon report "has been found to be alarmist propaganda." In a March 2 column, Pat Buchanan stated that "global warming is the great hoax of the 21st [century]" and wrote: "The IPCC report that global warming is going to kill 40 percent of the Amazon rainforest and cut African crop yields 50 percent has been found to be alarmist propaganda."

IBD: IPCC's Amazon forest claim is "fraudulent." In an April 27 editorial titled, "IPCC's River of Lies," Investor's Business Daily wrote that the IPCC's statement on Amazon rain forests was a "fraudulent claim."

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    • Author by DellDolly (June 30, 2010 1:48 pm ET)
      9 3
      So now we all will patiently wait for all the rightwing sources listed above by MMFA to issue corrections/retractions, right?

      The proper way for the media to have followed up on the initial questioning? They should have ASKED someone (the IPCC, eg) if there truly were issues with the people who wrote the story and if it had or had not been supported by other peer-reviewed research.

      This BS of being simple transcriptionists instead of actually doing the work that a journalist SHOULD do to inform others is incredible.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pongotwistleton (June 30, 2010 2:11 pm ET)
        1 14
        I wonder what the sex poodle would say about mmfa's article.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MidnightWriter (June 30, 2010 2:34 pm ET)
          10 2
          Ah, what a counter. When confronted with a serious issue backed by a mountain of facts, toss in a frivolous matter backed by innuendo.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by mhughen (June 30, 2010 3:02 pm ET)
          10 2
          I dont know, pongo, but its about as important as David Vitter's views on family values and prostitutes.

          Why cant the right stick to the discussion at hand?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (June 30, 2010 3:17 pm ET)
            9 1
            Why can't they stick to the discussion at hand? Because the facts have a liberal bias. Because they'd lose virtually every argument if they had a reasonable discussion using the available evidence.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 4:59 pm ET)
              2 8
              "because the facts have a liberal bias". some of the stupidest word ever written.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Ro (June 30, 2010 5:16 pm ET)
                8 3
                Yes, "liberal bias" is a rather stupid combination of words. Which is why it doesn't surprise anyone on the left when dumba** wingnuts like yourself continually insist on using it to deflect discussion away from any fact you don't want to hear.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 5:40 pm ET)
                  6 2
                  I'll agree with craig####, assuming he means it's a statement so obvious and well-documented that it's stupid to even have to write them anymore.

                  And I have to assume that's what he meant, seeing as how he didn't offer anything to refute the mountains of evidence showing those words to be true.

                  He can't possibly be stupid enough to think that simply saying " That's stupid!" is a good argument. Can he?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 5:53 pm ET)
                    3 7
                    its stupid and arrogant. how can truth have a bias, it is the truth and nothing more. adding a bias makes it no longer the truth. arrogant because you all believe that you are so right and the more liberal it is the more truthful it is. no wonder the left is considered elitist snobs. oh and i'm not a right winger, not even close.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 6:00 pm ET)
                      5 2
                      I gewt the feeling you don't really understand the words you were calling stupid.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (June 30, 2010 6:00 pm ET)
                      6 3
                      Has your television got a color knob on it, or do you prefer everything in black & white?

                      Yes, literally, facts are facts and have no bias.
                      The saying isn't meant to be taken literally. The point of the saying is that too much of the time, the liberal position is opinion based upon facts...while on the airwaves, so-called conservative pundits wave a war on the truth. They state something that isn't true as the premise from which they spout their opinions. If you want specifics, look at the research items on the page.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 6:14 pm ET)
                        7 1
                        Thanks for handling today's session of Remedial Matters for America*, Mary.

                        * h/t to Neondesert
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 6:39 pm ET)
                        1 5
                        i agree that rush,hannity and the rest do throw out wothless junk. but i have heard the same from the left. the left has a much smaller audiance. but the people whom have blogged here seem to really believe it in its entire scope. if you think the liberal position is based on facts then you might be just a little snobish.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by eweston8542983 (June 30, 2010 9:36 pm ET)
                          3 1
                          Throw out some examples, I'm sure they exist. Stupidity exists in nearly every human grouping. Evidence is that if they do blow it, factwise, they are up front in admitting it.

                          Liberal encloses a lot of territory. Some of our democratic legislators are within that territory. Some are not.

                          Certain small parts of the media can be called liberal. None of them speak for liberals the way the, so called, conservative media speaks for neocons and neocon wannabe's everywhere in the country.

                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by cugagcmu805031 (June 30, 2010 10:40 pm ET)
                          5 1
                          I don't see anything "snobbish" or "elitist" about having:

                          a functioning brain,

                          a bold streak of independence,

                          a good education,

                          a thirst for knowledge,

                          good critical thinking skills,

                          and a preference for fact over fiction.

                          It's not as if it's a commodity granted only to certain members of this society.

                          After all, primary and secondary education is still free, and post secondary technical colleges, four year colleges and universities are all still accepting applications.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by bilbo_dies (June 30, 2010 6:04 pm ET)
                      4  
                      And here I always thought that:
                      "because the facts have a liberal bias"
                      was the same as:
                      "the truth has a liberal bias"
                      and were meant as a refutation of the meme:
                      "the left leaning liberal media".


                      Silly me.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 6:21 pm ET)
                        4  
                        You too, Bilbo. It really does take a village.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mary59 (June 30, 2010 6:29 pm ET)
                          6 2
                          Now Craig is busy looking up a retort from Atlas Shrugged.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 6:43 pm ET)
                            1 5
                            never read the whole book mary, ayn was a pretty weird person if you ask me. way to sterotype. what a good little elitist you are.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 6:55 pm ET)
                              6 1
                              What's with this "elitist" bullsh!t ?

                              You called something "stupid" because you didn't understand it.

                              People have tried to explain it to you.

                              You continue to call other people "elitist", "arrogant" and "snobs".

                              What do you even mean by those words? Anybody who works hard enough to understand the topic ? Is an elitist anybody who uses their brain instead of just calling things "stupid"?

                              There's nothing elitist about it. Anybody can join the club, it doesn't matter who your daddy is, what school you went to, or how much money you have. It just takes some basic manners and a little work.

                              Maybe if you stopped blaming everybody else for your problems and took some responsibility, you could be an elitist, too.
                              Report Abuse
                      • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 6:41 pm ET)
                        1 5
                        the media does lean left. sometimes its obvious. does'nt mean they can't report the truth.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mary59 (June 30, 2010 6:51 pm ET)
                          5 2
                          Which media are you referring to?

                          How about following up your lean left charge with an actual specific example?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 6:58 pm ET)
                            4 1
                            I do see a breakthrough here, Mary. Even if his belief that the media leans left isn't true, he's at least reconciling that idea being compatible with factual reporting.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by mary59 (June 30, 2010 7:58 pm ET)
                              3 2
                              Thanks, Andy.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by riverdog (June 30, 2010 8:12 pm ET)
                                1 5
                                last night on olberman he noted that the for the republicans if you do not comply with the tea party you will be forced out and called that fascist, which i agree. i also see the same here. im a dem, scoop jackson harry truman type. no room for me now. if i dissagree with one thing on this and like sites i am branded a right winger(plus many other names you all like, nazi for one). so i see the same fasist behavior that keith noted on the right as here with you all. andy and mary, get a room.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 9:11 pm ET)
                                  5 1
                                  You really like blaming other people for your failures, don't you? Sorry, but you have to understand that it was easy to assume you were a right winger, based on your comments here.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by internet soldier (June 30, 2010 10:19 pm ET)
                                  4  
                                  im a dem, scoop jackson harry truman type.


                                  Hah!
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by mary59 (July 01, 2010 10:49 am ET)
                                    1 2
                                    Hah indeed. It's obvious he's just wild about Harry Truman,from his snarky remark about Al Gore.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by mary59 (July 01, 2010 10:53 am ET)
                                      2 2
                                      Oops. Sorry Craig. that was pong whistle. You were taking issue with the facts have a liberal bias saying.

                                      However, you haven't fleshed yourself out as an actual human being. You've been insulting yourself about people "blogging" and saying "they" are all of one mind and go along with every "liberal" position. That is more stupid than the saying you hate.
                                      Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (June 30, 2010 3:39 pm ET)
          9 1
          I wonder what the sex poodle would say about mmfa's article. - pongotwistleton

          At least now we know what a mindless boob would have to say about it.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Old_Benjamin (June 30, 2010 5:31 pm ET)
          3  
          Again with sex and animals.

          What's up with that?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Old_Benjamin (June 30, 2010 5:31 pm ET)
          2  
          Again with sex and animals.

          What's up with that?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 5:58 pm ET)
          9 1
          Thanks, pongopantswhistle. Believe it or not, your comment served a purpose here, and since I'm sure you have no idea what that purpose is, I'll explain it to you.

          Ya see, a couple of years ago, and up until recently ( and I encourage you to check the archives so you can see for yourself) on any given Climate Change -related thread at this site, there were at least a couple, sometimes dozens, of the Global Warming Denial Cultists madly throwing stuff against the wall in a desperate attempt to avoid reality.

          It was funny and sad. They would link to James Inhofe's site,or a petition signed by a few thousand self-described scientists who disagreed with the real scientists, or a couple of cherry-picked lines from some stolen emails, or some oil company-funded "research"

          Overand over, they would be convinced that they had proven Global Warming was a hoax like the round Earth, evolution or the female orgasm, or anything else right wingers couldn't comprehend.

          And they would be repeatedly humiliated by the facts, desperately clinging to the same propaganda no matter how many times they were made fools of.

          At some point, the brighter ones started to catch on. They'd been suckered. They slowly dropped away, leaving only the dimmest behind to fight the battle.

          But look at this thread, on June 30, 2010. More evidence that the hoax was actually being perpetrated by the Deniers, and nobody arguing with it.

          Just craig saying " Stuff I don't like is stoopid!"

          And you, like a slightly less amusing Beavis and Butt-Head, saying " Uuhhhh... Algore am sex poodle...huh huh.."

          Do you see what Fox "news" and Rush have done to you ? I'm assuming you had a normal human brain at some point, and you're reduced to a babbling child, angry at science, and trying to llive through other peoples sex lives.

          And you're one of the few remaining wingnuts who isn't too embarrassed to put on a public demonstration , making it obvious that most have admitted you were all suckered.

          That is the purpose you served here today.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 7:49 pm ET)
            1 5
            Denialists are not acting like cultists. It is the global warming advocates that act like cultists. The lack of faith in something is actually being the opposite of a cult.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mary59 (June 30, 2010 7:57 pm ET)
              5 2
              Lack of "faith" in global warming. So that's what you call an opinion not based upon the scientific method?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 8:46 pm ET)
                1 7
                Just using "cult" type terms since most global warming... oops ... global climate change advocates can't see their own cultish behavior on this subject.

                As far as science, I still haven't seen the data to back up any claims. I have not seen how the models can possibly predict anything except that they are manmade therefore they are flawed. I have not seen any type of science except for a lot of academic theory.

                I don't believe in trashing our environment so you guys could at least conceed that you believe in trashing the economy.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by bilbo_dies (June 30, 2010 9:26 pm ET)
                  4 1
                  As far as science, I still haven't seen the data to back up any claims. I have not seen how the models can possibly predict anything except that they are manmade therefore they are flawed. I have not seen any type of science except for a lot of academic theory.

                  Is that because you only do research on sites that cater to the anti global warming side of the debate? Or is that because you won't have enough "proof" unless all the ice in Antartica melts, and sea levels rise 200 meters??

                  Cult:
                  The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are reasonably considered strange.


                  Sorry, sounds like global warming denialist meet this definition of cult.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 10:30 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    In the last polls I have seen, the advocates are in the minority. Strange days indeed, nost perculiar momma whoa.

                    I don't do research on the web, that is for the common man that desires to be just another follower. I actually read papers and books. I desire knowledge not pablum for the masses. Get your nose into some actual reports and literature instead of web sites that tell you how to think.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by rumpleteasermom (June 30, 2010 11:16 pm ET)
                      4 1
                      Um . . . you do know that most scholarly journals can be found online now. Right?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 11:36 pm ET)
                        4 1
                        Sure, for the common man !! BH gets actual hardcopy reports from scientists, not available in stores or the internets !

                        I actually read papers and books. I desire knowledge not pablum for the masses


                        Lolz. Bless the wingnuts, they're funniest when they start to take themselves seriously.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by mescal (July 01, 2010 2:13 am ET)
                        1  
                        No, he clearly does not.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by internet soldier (June 30, 2010 9:42 pm ET)
                  6 1
                  I agree BH. I don't believe in electrons, and I get accused of cultish behavior and of basing my denial purely on faith. And yet those same people who accuse me of being in a cult trust the words of "scientists" without question. What's so special about scientists? The only proof they've shown is a bunch of theoretical gobble-dy-guck mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Unless they force me to understand every bit of their work, I refuse to believe them.

                  Thanks, Boulderhippy, for understanding my plight.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 10:39 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    There is practical science and there is theoretical science. Guess which one global whatever it is this week is.

                    I did get your sarcasm.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by internet soldier (July 01, 2010 1:47 am ET)
                      5  
                      You know what else is theoretical? The theory of Gravitation for one. The existence of atoms is also "just" a theory. Evolution is as well. And so is Global Warming.

                      No, noone has ever "seen" Global Warming, just like noone has seen an atom or witnessed the evolution of mankind firsthand. Science would be pretty useless if all it did was record happenings. The purpose of Science is to construct the best theories to explain those happenings and to make predictions about what will happen in the future.

                      Scientists won't always be able to show you the absolute proof you demand from them and you won't always understand their work, but if the vast majority of them believe a theory, it's a pretty good sign that theory has support.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (July 01, 2010 1:58 am ET)
                    4 1
                    No untrained scientist can POSSIBLY understand the science behind virtually ANY advanced science nowadays.

                    There's not a single thing that's being looked at in today's world that's a new subject - everything that's being looked at nowadays is science built upon the work of others. ALL scientists nowadays take for granted the building blocks that were crafted for them by previous scientists.

                    As such, unless one is specifically trained in that previous science, one can't understand the new stuff being investigated/evaluated/analyzed/discovered.

                    For BoulderHippy to insist that HE must "understand" all this stuff is ludicrous, unrealistic and illogical! He doesn't demand that he understand how everything else he interacts with works, yet he maintains that the ONLY way he can be comfortable believing in GCC is to understand it all!

                    What a dishonest, disreputable troll he is - but we already knew that.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by eweston8542983 (June 30, 2010 9:51 pm ET)
                  3  
                  Niether the envirenmental nor the economic situation move to better days by saying symply that they are being trashed.

                  You can find folks very angry at players and organizations that effect both issues. Still to say us guys want to bring down economies at home and world wide is to accuse us of outright insanity. Not someone to discuss important matters with, because they are insane.

                  This is not the basis for a productive argument.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 10:21 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    Saying the matter is settled is exactly what the cultists have said. Blindly following the global whatever it is this week crowd.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by eweston8542983 (June 30, 2010 11:01 pm ET)
                      5  
                      Pretty vague statement. 96% in the climatological field can be identified as blinded cultist's?

                      Define the matter that is said to be settled and the speaker(s) who've said so.

                      Refrain from blanket statements or the well know power of wingnut mind reading please.
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 9:15 pm ET)
              6 1
              Lack of faith in science ?. You guys continue to amaze me with your loopy logic and torturing of reality.

              Are you a fan of Sharron Angle ? Because she thinks the government not prohibiting something is government intrusion. It's like you all had your brains installed backwards.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by boulderhippy (June 30, 2010 10:35 pm ET)
                1 6
                I don't know who Angle is. I however appreciate the fact that you cannot actually speak to the topic at hand. Do you actually have a point or just another cult type attack on someone that doesn't follow your religion without any relevant information?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Andy Kreiss (June 30, 2010 11:21 pm ET)
                  6 1
                  Sorry, let me get into Remedial Matters mode for you, since you missed my point.

                  You're calling those who believe in science over ideology re: Global Warming cultists. You've actually tried to back it up by mentioning "polls" saying that "advocates" are in the minority.

                  I'm not sure what advocacy has to do with science, but which polls are you talking about ? Polls of Fox news viewers ?

                  The comparison to Angle, I thought, was obvious enough for a child to understand.

                  Her position is that the government not having any say in a persons decision regarding a pregnancy is more intrusive than the government dictating a forced pregnancy.

                  Your position is that those agreeing with scientific data and a pretty strong consensus among scientists are more faith-based than those who agree with the well-funded machine trying to discredit that science.

                  You seem to have a thinking process similar to Ms. Angle's. I hope you get the point now, I'm not sure I can dumb it down any further.

                  Good luck. :)
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by pongotwistleton (July 01, 2010 9:14 am ET)
            1 3
            Thanks, pongopantswhistle

            No problem, twit, except your half-literate diatribe makes no sense. Apparently your "brain," for what it is, can't comprehend that someone can take digs at Al Gore, or perhaps even dislike Al Gore, but still believe in the perils of global warming. Never in my life have I been a Denier, and I willingly defer to the expertise of organizations and scientists who are far more credible on the subject than the sex poodle.

            You're obviously a hack, a barely literate one at that, who automatically views everything through a political prism. I don't care for Al Gore, but believe the overall consensus of the scientific community that GW is real. Not too complicated.

            What's with this "elitist" bullsh!t ?

            You shouldn't worry too much about being accused of intellectual elitism. It's unlikely that you'll every write anything sufficiently coherent to warrant any such charge. ..
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Andy Kreiss (July 01, 2010 9:51 am ET)
              2  
              Attaboy, Pongo, you've moved beyond Algore's crotch to some complete thoughts. Good start. You still haven't said much, but it's a move in the right direction.

              Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it was just a thank you note, and a little push to try to get something besides "digs" out of you.

              Keep up the good work !
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pongotwistleton (July 01, 2010 10:30 am ET)
                  3
                No hurt feelings. You just need to learn to separate politics and personalities from the substance of an argument. That'll come along as your intellect and reading comprehension matures, hopefully. I suggest branching out, on occasion, from the choir here at mmfa, and then maybe it'll sink in that not everybody links the serious problem of GW with politics. Judging from your desultory comments above, it'll be an eye-opening journey for you. . .In any event, just remember to use the old noggin before reflexively and baselessly ascribing viewpoints to other people . . .
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Andy Kreiss (July 01, 2010 10:38 am ET)
                  5  
                  Thank you so much, pong. If anybody should be lecturing others about not seeing everything through a prism of politics, it's the guy who responds to an item about GW Denier misinformation with a clumsy "dig" at an alleged Al Gore sex scandal.

                  I'm going to file the following in my "Substantial Argument Template" folder;

                  by pongotwistleton (June 30, 2010 2:11 pm ET)
                  I wonder what the sex poodle would say about mmfa's article.






                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (July 01, 2010 1:40 pm ET)
                    2  
                    Well, on top of all that you said that was fully accurate and on-point about his post, there's the additional point that the REASON he made the post was to derail the thread to a discussion of Al Gore. That's why he posted his snide comment as a reply to MY post, when it had NOTHING to do with the contents of my post.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by pete592 (June 30, 2010 2:53 pm ET)
      5 1
      Heck No. Bogus headlines are best left to fester. That's how the right wing retains what favor it has left with the public.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by fantagor (June 30, 2010 3:31 pm ET)
      13 1
      Conservative deniers are determined to deny the issue till there are no humans left to debate the issue. They simply don't care. They have theirs. Everyone else is on their own.

      But this is of course not a surprise.

      Conservative ideology is based on caring for only that which one can perceive directly in one's field of vision. All else that falls outside that narrow band is a nonentity. So an issue like GW is just too all encompassing to be wedged inside a sitting room mentality.

      Randy
      Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (June 30, 2010 3:59 pm ET)
        6 2
        Yes, they sure are shortsighted, selfish boobs.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (June 30, 2010 10:52 pm ET)
          3 1
          When would pathological liars retract a lie? That is what liars DO: they LIE. That is their modus operandi. Sound evidence would not support their position or give them a "win". The ONLY course of action is lying. Some political analyst should research how many, if ANY, times the media has retracted a false statement or article. Now THAT would be worth reading!
          Report Abuse

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