Where are they now? Serial Iraq misinformers find home at Fox
During the run-up to the Iraq war, some of the worst purveyors of misinformation about Iraq had a home at Fox News, and their ranks have swelled considerably since then. Media Matters takes a look at the track record of wrong predictions and shoddy analysis about the war in Iraq by many of Fox News' contributors and analysts.
Karl Rove
White House Iraq Group was formed to "set [messaging] strategy" for going to war with Iraq. The Washington Post reported in 2003 (accessed via Nexis) that the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) was formed in August 2002 "to set strategy for each stage of the confrontation with Baghdad. A senior official who participated in its work called it 'an internal working group, like many formed for priority issues, to make sure each part of the White House was fulfilling its responsibilities.' " Part of the WHIG's mission, according to the Post, was to decide "what to demand of the United Nations in the president's Sept. 12 [2002] address to the General Assembly, when to take the issue to Congress, and how to frame the conflict with Iraq in the midterm election campaign that began in earnest after Labor Day." Rove was a regular participant in this group.
WHIG promoted view that Saddam "had weapons of mass destruction and was seeking more." The Los Angeles Times reported on August 25, 2005, (accessed via Nexis) that the WHIG "promoted the view that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was seeking more":
The group consisted of Rove, Libby, White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr., then-national security advisor Condoleezza Rice and her deputy, Stephen Hadley, and Mary Matalin, Cheney's media advisor. All are believed to have been questioned in the leak case; papers and e-mails about the group were subpoenaed.
Before the war, this Iraq group promoted the view that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was seeking more. In September 2002, the White House embraced a British report asserting that "Iraq has sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
The Washington Post further reported that WHIG "assigned Communications Director James R. Wilkinson to prepare a white paper for public release, describing the 'grave and gathering danger' of Iraq's allegedly 'reconstituted' nuclear program." From the October 30, 2005, article (accessed via Nexis):
By summer 2002, the White House Iraq Group assigned Communications Director James R. Wilkinson to prepare a white paper for public release, describing the "grave and gathering danger" of Iraq's allegedly "reconstituted" nuclear weapons program. Wilkinson gave prominent place to the claim that Iraq "sought uranium oxide, an essential ingredient in the enrichment process, from Africa." That claim, along with repeated use of the "mushroom cloud" image by top officials beginning in September, became the emotional heart of the case against Iraq.
Rove repeatedly politicized national security issues, including the war in Iraq, and actively encouraged GOP to campaign on the issue. Think Progress has documented Rove's repeated politicization of the Iraq war and his encouragement that Republicans campaign on the issue in 2002, which included (emphasis in original):
In January 2002, Rove told conservatives, "Americans trust the Republicans to do a better job of keeping our communities and our families safe...We can also go to the country on this issue because they trust the Republican Party to do a better job of protecting and strengthening America's military might and thereby protecting America."
[...]
In June 2002, Rove was giving PowerPoint presentations candidates [sic] advising them to "focus on the war" in their fall campaigns.
In September 2002, Time reported that when friends asked whether Bush planned to invade Iraq, Rove was been [sic] known to reply, "Let me put it this way: If you want to see Baghdad, you'd better visit soon."
In addition, according to an April 5, 2003, New York Times article (accessed via Nexis), Rove worked "busily ... to shape perceptions of Mr. Bush as a wartime leader and to prepare for the re-election campaign that will start as soon as the war ends." The Times quoted Rove as saying, "The president is leading the coalition of the willing, and is determined that Iraq will be disarmed of its weapons of mass destruction and that the cruel dictator's regime will be ended." From the New York Times:
The White House portrays Karl Rove, President Bush's most influential political adviser, as playing no role in military decisions that are shaping the Bush presidency.
But more than two weeks after the war began, Mr. Rove is busily working to shape perceptions of Mr. Bush as a wartime leader and to prepare for the re-election campaign that will start as soon as the war ends.
Tonight, Mr. Rove traveled here to tend to the Republican troops at the Texas Night fund-raising celebration of the Kent County Republican Committee.
"The president is leading the coalition of the willing, and is determined that Iraq will be disarmed of its weapons of mass destruction and that the cruel dictator's regime will be ended," Mr. Rove declared after taking the stage to chants of "U.S.A.!" in a cavernous hanger filled with the local party faithful wearing Texas-style cowboy boots, hats and bandanas.
Beyond courting Republicans at party events, Mr. Rove has in recent days been counseling Congressional Republicans and conservative groups on how to advance their domestic agenda even while attention is on Iraq.
This week, he held forth at a lunch with conservative commentators and journalists. Some participants had backed the administration on Iraq when it faced criticism that the war plan provided insufficient force and that it had been overly optimistic about Iraqi resistance.
Rove is currently a Fox News contributor, as well as Wall Street Journal and Newsweek columnist
Charles Krauthammer
Krauthammer predicted invasion of Iraq would lead to spread of democracy throughout Middle East. In a February 1, 2002, Washington Post column (accessed via Nexis), Krauthammer predicted that an invasion of Iraq would lead to the spread of democracy throughout the Middle East, saying:
Iran is not a ready candidate for the blunt instrument of American power, because it is in the grips of a revolution from below. We can best accelerate that revolution by the power of example and success: Overthrowing neighboring radical regimes shows the fragility of dictatorship, challenges the mullahs' mandate from heaven and thus encourages disaffected Iranians to rise. First, Afghanistan to the east. Next, Iraq to the west.
Krauthammer in June 2004: "[I]t's the beginning of the end of the bad news." On the June 1, 2004, edition of Special Report, Krauthammer said: "[I]t's the beginning of the end of the bad news. I mean, we're going to have lots of attacks, but the political process is under way."
In addition, in a March 7, 2005, Time column, Krauthammer wrote:
Two years ago, shortly before the invasion of Iraq, I argued in these pages that forcefully deposing Saddam Hussein was, more than anything, about America "coming ashore" to effect a "pan-Arab reformation" -- a dangerous, "risky and, yes, arrogant" but necessary attempt to change the very culture of the Middle East, to open its doors to democracy and modernity.
The Administration went ahead with this great project knowing it would be hostage to history. History has begun to speak. Elections in Afghanistan, a historic first. Elections in Iraq, a historic first. Free Palestinian elections producing a moderate leadership, two historic firsts. Municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, men only, but still a first. In Egypt, demonstrations for democracy -- unheard of in decades -- prompting the dictator to announce free contested presidential elections, a historic first.
And now, of course, the most romantic flowering of the spirit America went into the region to foster: the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, in which unarmed civilians, Christian and Muslim alike, brought down the puppet government installed by Syria. There is even the beginning of a breeze in Damascus. More than 140 Syrian intellectuals have signed a public statement defying their government by opposing its occupation of Lebanon.
Krauthammer is a political analyst for Fox News, and a regular member of Special Report with Bret Baier's "All Star Panel."
Fred Barnes
Barnes: "[W]inning the war in Iraq" is "going to be easy." On the January 18, 2003, edition of Fox News' The Beltway Boys (accessed via Nexis), Barnes said: "[L]ook, the problem is not winning the war in Iraq. That's going to be easy. The problem right now is Hans Blix, the United Nations inspector in chief in Iraq, who seems to think his job is containment. You know, he says these inspections are a form of containment, and he wants to keep the inspectors there as long as possible, it seems to me, and has even said so."
Barnes in April 2003: "[I]t gets easier now. ... When you see those statues topple...you know that's victory." On the April 10, 2003, edition of Fox News' Special Report, Barnes said: "[T]he good news is contrary to what you hear in the media, it gets easier now. The war was the hard part. The hard part was putting together a coalition, getting 300,000 troops over there and all their equipment and winning. And it gets easier. I mean, setting up a democracy is hard, but it is not as hard as winning a war. ... Hezbollah is a part of the war on terrorism. Syria harbors terrorists in the Biqa Valley, Hezbollah and so on. The Saudis export terrorism in terms of Wahabi Islam, and things can be done to crack down on that. It doesn't mean sending troops into Riyadh or into Damascus or things like that. But certainly the U.S. now has leverage that it didn't have before winning this triumph in Iraq. ... [L]ook, it is clear what victory in the war is. When you see those statues topple and you know that's victory."
Barnes: Terrorists in Iraq are hitting "soft targets." On the October 27, 2003, edition of Special Report, Barnes said, "But these terrorists are hitting soft targets. I mean, the U.N., the hotel, the Red Cross -- these are relatively soft targets. And I think they have a bad strategy. What do they gain from killing a lot of Red Cross personnel and a lot of U.N. personnel? I don't think they warm the hearts of Iraqis. They certainly don't build up more support in Europe or the United States. It is a last-ditch -- I think it is a desperate effort by these terrorists. It's not representative of a significant guerrilla force that's fighting the United States there."
Barnes: Obama not "strong on national security" because he opposed war "when the entire world believed" Saddam had WMDs. On the October 6, 2007, edition of The Beltway Boys, Barnes claimed that then-Sen. Barack Obama was "not in quite as strong a position on the war in Iraq as he really thinks he is." He explained that when Obama delivered his 2002 speech against going to war with Iraq, "it was back in a time when the entire world believed Saddam Hussein in Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, that he would probably be willing to use them himself at some time or pass them along to terrorists who would use them. And yet, Barack Obama was against going to the war at that point." According to Barnes: "I don't think that shows that he is very strong on national security, which he needs to be."
Bill Kristol
Kristol: "American and alliance forces will be welcomed in Baghdad as liberators." In testimony delivered February 7, 2002, before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Kristol said:
[A]s in Kabul but also as in the Kurdish and Shi'ite regions of Iraq in 1991, American and alliance forces will be welcomed in Baghdad as liberators. Indeed, reconstructing Iraq may prove to be a less difficult task than the challenge of building a viable state in Afghanistan.
The political, strategic and moral rewards would also be even greater. A friendly, free, and oil-producing Iraq would leave Iran isolated and Syria cowed; the Palestinians more willing to negotiate seriously with Israel; and Saudi Arabia with less leverage over policymakers here and in Europe. Removing Saddam Hussein and his henchmen from power presents a genuine opportunity -- one President Bush sees clearly -- to transform the political landscape of the Middle East.
Kristol in April 2003: "The battles of Afghanistan and Iraq have been won decisively and honorably." In an April 28, 2003, Weekly Standard column, Kristol wrote:
The United States committed itself to defeating terror around the world. We committed ourselves to reshaping the Middle East, so the region would no longer be a hotbed of terrorism, extremism, anti-Americanism, and weapons of mass destruction. The first two battles of this new era are now over. The battles of Afghanistan and Iraq have been won decisively and honorably. But these are only two battles. We are only at the end of the beginning in the war on terror and terrorist states.
Kristol: "[A]lmost no evidence" that "the Shia can't get along with the Sunni." And on the April 1, 2003, broadcast of WHYY's Fresh Air, Kristol said, "There's been a certain amount of pop sociology in America ... that the Shia can't get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There's almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq's always been very secular."
Kristol began working for Fox News as a political commentator in 1996, and he continues to serve as a regular contributor to the network.
Stephen Hayes
Hayes repeatedly advanced falsehood that Al Qaeda and Iraq were linked. Media Matters has identified instances in which Hayes advanced falsehoods and distortions to defend attempts by Vice President Dick Cheney and others in the Bush administration to link Al Qaeda and Iraq. For example, on the December 9, 2005, edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews, Hayes defended Cheney's December 2001 claim that 9-11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague. According to Hayes: "If you look at the front page of The New York Times in the days surrounding the vice president's claim, The New York Times was actually reporting the same thing." But as Media Matters noted, even after the Times and numerous other news outlets subsequently reported in May 2002 that the FBI and CIA "had firmly concluded that no meeting had occured," Cheney continued to raise the possibility that such a meeting took place.
Hayes "has made a career out of pretending Saddam and Al Qaeda were in league." Hayes has repeatedly claimed on TV, in The Weekly Standard, and in his book The Connection: How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America, that Iraq was connected to Al Qaeda. Spencer Ackerman wrote that Hayes "has made a career out of pretending Saddam and Al Qaeda were in league to attack the United States":
Hayes, in the Standard, has made a career out of pretending Saddam and Al Qaeda were in league to attack the United States. He published a book - tellingly wafer-thin and with large type in its hardcover edition - called "The Connection." One infamous piece even suggested that Saddam might have aided the 9/11 attack. Hayes can be relied on to provide a farrago of speciousness every time new information emerges refuting his deceptive thesis. Unsurprisingly, [former Vice President Dick] Cheney has repeatedly praised Hayes's work, telling Fox News, "I think Steve Hayes has done an effective job in his article of laying out a lot of those connections."
Pentagon called Hayes' assertion that "a top secret U.S. government memorandum" concluded that Saddam and bin Laden had an "operational relationship" "inaccurate." In an article in The Weekly Standard's November 24, 2003, issue, Hayes asserted that "a top secret U.S. government memorandum" -- which Hayes identified as a memorandum produced by former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith -- concluded that Saddam and bin Laden "had an operational relationship." Hayes wrote of the memo: "Much of the evidence is detailed, conclusive, and corroborated by multiple sources." In a January 9, 2004, interview with Denver's Rocky Mountain News, Cheney cited Hayes' article, claiming that "[i]t goes through and lays out in some detail, based on an assessment that was done by the Department of Defense and was forwarded to the Senate Intelligence Committee some weeks ago." Cheney added: "That's your best source of information." Following the publication of Hayes' article, the Pentagon released a statement asserting that "[n]ews reports" about the memo "are inaccurate" and that the portion of the memo to which Hayes' article referred "was not an analysis of the substantive issue of the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda, and it drew no conclusions."
Hayes is a regular Fox News contributor, who often appears as a panelist on Fox News' Special Report.
Judith Miller
Miller's series of articles on the now-debunked claim that Saddam had WMDs forced NY Times to apologize for its coverage. As Franklin Foer wrote for New York magazine:
During the winter of 2001 and throughout 2002, Miller produced a series of stunning stories about Saddam Hussein's ambition and capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, based largely on information provided by [Ahmad Chalabi] and his allies -- almost all of which have turned out to be stunningly inaccurate.
Indeed, although the Times did not identify Miller by name, it did publish an editor's note in May 2004 apologizing for its coverage of the existence of WMDs in Iraq, particularly articles based on the assertions of Chalabi and other Iraqi defectors:
But we have found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been. In some cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged -- or failed to emerge.
The problematic articles varied in authorship and subject matter, but many shared a common feature. They depended at least in part on information from a circle of Iraqi informants, defectors and exiles bent on "regime change" in Iraq, people whose credibility has come under increasing public debate in recent weeks. (The most prominent of the anti-Saddam campaigners, Ahmad Chalabi, has been named as an occasional source in Times articles since at least 1991, and has introduced reporters to other exiles. He became a favorite of hard-liners within the Bush administration and a paid broker of information from Iraqi exiles, until his payments were cut off last week.) Complicating matters for journalists, the accounts of these exiles were often eagerly confirmed by United States officials convinced of the need to intervene in Iraq. Administration officials now acknowledge that they sometimes fell for misinformation from these exile sources. So did many news organizations -- in particular, this one.
Judith Miller now appears regularly as a Fox News contributor, including frequent appearances to offer media criticism on Fox's Fox News Watch.
John Bolton
Bolton: "The existence of Iraq's [biological weapons] program is beyond dispute." According to a November 20, 2001, Washington Post article (accessed via Nexis), Bolton -- then the Bush administration's undersecretary for arms control and international security -- said at a biological weapons conference: "The United States strongly suspects that Iraq has taken advantage of three years of no U.N. inspections to improve all phases of its offensive biological weapons program. ... The existence of Iraq's program is beyond dispute." From the Post:
John Bolton, undersecretary for arms control and international security, speaking at a biological weapons conference in Geneva on Monday, said the existence of a germ-warfare program in Iraq is "beyond dispute" and added that the United States strongly suspects North Korea, Libya, Syria, Iran and Sudan of pursuing such weapons.
"The United States strongly suspects that Iraq has taken advantage of three years of no U.N. inspections to improve all phases of its offensive biological weapons program," Bolton said. "The existence of Iraq's program is beyond dispute."
Bolton's comments come in the context of stepped-up U.S. anxiety about biological weapons and the willingness of America's foes to use them. Many members of the Bush administration favor making Iraq the next target in the U.S. war on terrorism, alleging that one of the key hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks met with Iraqi intelligence agents and that Saddam has the means and willingness to launch an attack on the United States.
"Beyond al-Qaeda, the most serious concern is Iraq," Bolton said. "Iraq's biological-weapons program remains a serious threat to international security."
Bolton: "We have very convincing evidence that Iraq maintains an extensive program for the production ... of weapons of mass destruction." The Chicago Tribune reported on January 25, 2003, (accessed via Nexis) that Bolton said "that the United States has evidence of Iraq's maintenance of weapons of mass destruction that will be disclosed at an 'appropriate time.' " The Tribune further reported that Bolton said, "We have very convincing evidence that Iraq maintains an extensive program for the production ... of weapons of mass destruction."
Bolton is currently a Fox News contributor, as well as a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute
Newt Gingrich
Gingrich in 2001: "We know today that Saddam Hussein is willing to accept any level of sanctions to keep his program for weapons of mass destruction running." In November 2001, Gingrich asserted that Iraq had a WMDs program, writing, "We know today that Saddam Hussein is willing to accept any level of sanctions to keep his program for weapons of mass destruction running." He further wrote:
We are a serious nation, and the message should be simple if this is to be a serious war: Saddam will stop his efforts and close down all programs to create weapons of mass destruction. He will expel all terrorists from Iraqi soil, or we will substitute a new government in Iraq. We must insist on change, because we now have vivid proof in New York and Washington of the future if we do not.
Gingrich: "[W]e have a real obligation to take Iraq head on, because in the end, that's one of the centers of really big danger in terms of nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare." On the December 5, 2001, edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes (accessed via Nexis), Gingrich stated: "I do believe in the next 60 days we have a real obligation to take Iraq head on, because in the end, that's one of the centers of really big danger in terms of nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare." From Hannity & Colmes:
GINGRICH: No, it's not a cowboy-type attitude. It's a direct attitude of a powerful country saying that in the first place, I believe that in the end the regime of Saddam Hussein cannot survive, that these are people who -- Saddam Hussein is trying to get nuclear weapons, he's trying to get biological weapons, he's trying to get chemical weapons. The president himself has said this man is very evil and very dangerous. President Clinton said he was evil and dangerous. Former secretary of state Albright described him as being like Hitler.
Now, there's a point here when I think you ought to take these things seriously. I think it ought to be the policy of the American government to help the Iraqi people replace the current dictatorship with a government that is more interested in economic trade than in weapons of mass destruction.
So whether Iraq wants to start the fight or whether we go and deliver an ultimatum, I do believe in the next 60 days we have a real obligation to take Iraq head on, because in the end, that's one of the centers of really big danger in terms of nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare.
Gingrich: "I think history will record that a remarkably strong president happened to be in office at a juncture where weapons of mass destruction and terrorism rewrote all the rules of engagement in international relations." A March 9, 2003, Washington Post article (accessed via Nexis) reported:
Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker and a student of history, maintained that Bush's apparent serenity on the eve of a world-reordering war is part of his managerial style.
"When he was a younger man and owner of a baseball team [the Texas Rangers], he picked the manager and coaches and then sat in the stands," Gingrich said.
But Gingrich said the hesitation in stating the full extent of Bush's world vision is "confusing" foreign countries. "The most powerful nation in the world must be understandable, not merely formidable," he said. And what Bush needs to convey to the world is how much bigger than Iraq the coming war will be.
"I think history will record that a remarkably strong president happened to be in office at a juncture where weapons of mass destruction and terrorism rewrote all the rules of engagement in international relations," Gingrich said. "It will record that the president moved beyond old institutions and developed a new set of alliances."
Gingrich has been a political contributor to Fox News since 1999.
Dick Morris
Morris: "[T]he key, let us all remember, is to attack Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein before he acquires weapons of mass destruction." In an April 17, 2002, column in The Hill (accessed via Nexis), Morris wrote: "The Arab nations demand U.S. action partially to achieve their own ends vis-a-vis Israel, but also precisely to ensnare the United States before it can move against Iraq. They are masters at the game of sucking you into the desert and running you around with shuttle diplomacy until you drop. All the while, Saddam Hussein's scientists build his bomb. The clock is running. Will the United States act before Iraq completes its deadly work?" He further stated: "[T]he key, let us all remember, is to attack Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein before he acquires weapons of mass destruction. This will likely involve a large mobilization of American might and the deployment of several hundred thousand American troops."
Morris suggested Iraq was "developing an atomic bomb [that] they're going to use against us or Israel." On the July 25, 2002, edition of Fox News' The Big Story (accessed via Nexis), Morris advocated for war in Iraq, suggesting that the United States would find "laboratories for enriching uranium" and stating of Bush, "It's very clear he's made the case" to invade Iraq. From The Big Story:
JOHN GIBSON (host): [Bush] has had the -- a notion has been put forward that he has to take care of other things first. Has to be a Middle East peace, the economy has to get back in shape. Should he say, We'll work on those things, but I've got to go ahead with this other thing?
MORRIS: Yes, he should. And those things are really both for -- both false. The notion that he has to solve a 50-year-old problem in the Middle East before he can stop somebody from developing an atomic bomb they're going to use against us or Israel is ludicrous. It's put there by the moderate Arab countries to try to stop him from ever doing anything.
And I can't think of anything better for the stock market than to get it the heck off the A-section of the newspaper and back in the C-section where it belongs. If there were just negative earnings reports and stuff, the market wouldn't be going this crazy.
It's that -- it's -- it's even pushed the Roman Catholic priest scandal off the front pages.
And the point is, we have only one front page in every newspaper at any given time. And if it's all going to be about Iraq, it's not going to be about the stock market, which will help the market.
GIBSON: Oh, yes, but are you saying that to -- that the president should -- that the president can say, Look, I'm going to start this thing now, I'm going to start this campaign, I'm going to move troops, we're going to get going, and that he, he can set aside the, the grumbling, the mumbling that he is starting a war to save his political problems?
MORRIS: Yes, sure he can, because no Democrat is going to dare say that. If some Democrat gets out there and says, You're starting this war because of the election, he'll kill them. He'll say, I'm starting the war. When this guy used poison gas and when I invade him, I'll find five laboratories for enriching uranium.
Look, if George Bush announced on Labor Day, Hey, I've made a discovery, Uganda is developing weapons of mass destruction and we're going to attack it, OK, that's wagging the dog. But this guy has been talking about Iraq for a year now. Eighty-five percent of the country wants him to invade. It's very clear he's made the case. What he's done so far is procrastinate, for two reasons.
Legitimately, he felt he wanted to do some work in Israel and world opinion. But the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- illegitimately. But legitimately, it was that you don't fight a war in the desert in the summer. It's hot, particularly in those chemical uniforms. You ever been in one of them? It's hot.
And the point is, you fight a war in the winter in the desert. Duh? January and February. And it takes you about six months to do the troop buildup, so it starts in September.
Morris: "Once our guys go in there, and women go in there, they're going to find weapons and labs that 80 inspectors can't find, but 100,000 soldiers can." On December 8, 2002, edition Fox News' Fox Wire (accessed via Nexis), Morris said: "Seventy-nine percent of the American people think Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. Sixty-two percent think he's planning to use it on us. And Bush is the judge and the jury. Once our guys go in there, and women go in there, they're going to find weapons and labs that 80 inspectors can't find, but 100,000 soldiers can." He further stated that "if I were Bush, what I would do right now is I would say, look. You're lying. You're lying through your teeth. And unless you tell the truth by January 1, I'm going to attack on January 2." Later during the segment, Morris said that Saddam is "a bad guy that wants to get nuclear weapons. He's a bad guy that has chemical and biological weapons. And he is fully as much of a threat as al Qaeda is."
Morris ridiculed Democrats who wanted "more evidence" of WMDs, saying if "we find out after we've gone in there" that Iraq "was three months away from an atom bomb," Democrats "can forget about 2004." On the January 28, 2003, edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor (accessed via Nexis), Morris stated that "once we win in Iraq, the Europeans will be lining up to the Mediterranean to be part of that peacekeeping force." He further stated that " the Democratic Party is telling the United States, wait, get more evidence. Get more information. And we find out after we've gone in there that this guy was three months away from an atomic bomb, the Democratic Party can forget about 2004."
Morris: "I honestly believe that if you had 5,000 or 10,000 dead in this war, the American people would say, well, it just shows he had weapons of mass destruction, it just shows how important this was." On the March 31, 2003, edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, co-host Alan Colmes asked Morris, "What is the number allowable, because that's the word that's used, casualties, before you think there is a greater dissent on the part of the American public?" Morris responded: "I honestly believe, Alan, that there is no ceiling. I honestly believe that if you had 5,000 or 10,000 dead in this war, the American people would say, well, it just shows he had weapons of mass destruction, it just shows how important this was." He later stated, "I think the American people have endless patience with this thing." From Hannity & Colmes:
COLMES: What is the number allowable, because that's the word that's used, casualties, before you think there is a greater dissent on the part of the American public?
MORRIS: I honestly believe, Alan, that there is no ceiling. I honestly believe that if you had 5,000 or 10,000 dead in this war, the American people would say, well, it just shows he had weapons of mass destruction, it just shows how important this was.
This is a defensive war. The American people feel that we are being threatened, and this isn't like Bosnia or Kosovo, where we're doing it for the good of the world. We are, but we're also doing it to defend ourselves.
And I think the American people have endless patience with this thing.
In May 2003, Morris stated that "we won the war" in Iraq. On the May 28, 2003, edition of Hannity & Colmes (accessed via Nexis), Morris stated: "[W]e removed this enormous cause of destabilization in removing Saddam. The Iraqis have moved. The Syrians have moved. The Saudis are cooperating in this investigation in a way they didn't in Khobar Towers. Yasser Arafat is out on his butt and Abbas is now in charge. And all of that, coincidentally, happened after we won the war."
Morris serves as a political analyst for Fox News.

















And here we see that FoxNews clearly has bad intentions by their choice to HIRE all these "serial misinformers"!
No legitimate news organization would give so many who have been proven to be dishonest so many times so much airtime and freedom to continue to word parse, omit relevant data, distort info, or outright lie in order to push a politically partisan agenda.
And so, yet again, more evidence that FoxNews is not a legit news organization.
"We have met our responsibility. Now, it is time to turn the page.”
MMfA;
Uhh, not so fast.
But, that is off topic, so I shouldn't be feeding you.
Guess what, liberals aren't like conservatives, when the directives come down from the top we don't all instantly do as we're instructed.
You should know better then that by now, RightOn, so I can't imagine what your point would be, except to reinforce the idea that President Obama has been bending over backwards to create unity among the political parties, even while the right is using every dishonest trick in the book to demonize and discredit him.
More hypocrisy, more contradictions, more flailing, more desperation, more visits to your therapist.
I said that the reason they GAVE us for the invasion - that they had to invade because of the threat from WMD's that intelligence told us about - is invalid, because the INTELLIGENCE (educated guesses) had been found to be WRONG!
This is not rocket science.
You above; "Nope, I didn't say that there are no legitimate political differences"
You below; "It means that there were NO legit differences,"
Sue, Give it up. You have embarrassed yourself enough now.
The idea that we had to invade because of WMD's wasn't legit. This isn't rocket science.
Are you so dishonest and slither like a snake that you won't even admit to what everyone can clearly read? I don't care if you ever admit it. You will just be reminded of it next time you lecture someone else or call them a liar.
Because it's right here. More proof of your phoniness.
When all you have is personal attack your case is very weak.
BTW, it wasn't in 2003 when Bush learned Iraq was not involved in 9-11, it was 9-12-2001 he learned it.
How does that undermine MMFA's point? Obama was not talking about giving a platform to serial misinformers.
What? While that statement is obviously true, it doesn't answer my contention: Obama was not talking about giving a platform to serial misinformers--that is, as far as I can tell by the short snippet you provided. I assume Obama was talking about withdrawing the troops.
But the stuff MMFA lists above aren't "political differences". They are lies, distortions and omissions of relevant information that poisons our national discourse!
RightON is simply trying to cloud the picture here.
Here's a snippet from Obama's speech.
Through this remarkable chapter in the history of the United States and Iraq, we have met our responsibility.
Now, it is time to turn the page.
As we do, I am mindful that the Iraq War has been a contentious issue at home. Here, too, it is time to turn the page. This afternoon, I spoke to former President George W. Bush.
It's well known that he and I disagreed about the war from its outset. Yet no one could doubt President Bush's support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security. As I have said, there were patriots who supported this war, and patriots who opposed it. And all of us are united in appreciation for our servicemen and women, and our hope for Iraq's future.
The greatness of our democracy is grounded in our ability to move beyond our differences, and to learn from our experience as we confront the many challenges ahead. And no challenge is more essential to our security than our fight against al Qaeda.
What we DO know is that the right OFTEN tries to claim that people on the left attack liars on the right as liars simply because they disagree! And it's not about disagreement.
As MMFA documented above, it's about people on the right who have a long history of lying, being dishonest, being deceptive, and omitting relevant information in an attempt to confuse or mislead people. That undeniable dishonesty is what you're denying.
The load of crap comes from you. The absolute undeniable truth came from me.
I do welcome political differences based upon reality and the facts.
Point is the liberals who refuse to "turn the page" are now trying to change their own rules by saying it's just the lies and distortions that they are so nobly against, not simple political differences. BS. It was all called a lie and a distortion, there was never anything else. You can try and pretend otherwise, or justify it - like you do your hurling of expletives, but it doesn't fly Sue.
Sorry.
I don't deny that I used "screw you". It was 100% related to the use of really obnoxious behavior on the part of a couple of posters, and had nothing to do with honest political differences in any way, shape or form.
And nope, we aren't suddenly saying that it's simply the lies, distortions and omissions of relevant info that's the problem, rather than political differences.
And this isn't the first time that we've seen this argument from the right that we're the ones confusing political disagreement with dishonesty - but it's STILL a dishonest argument that the right loves to push when they can't/won't admit that we DON'T behave that way.
Some institution somewhere has their hands full.
The failure was YOURS, 100%. And yet you want to bring it back up?
I didn't lie in that thread at all.
You clearly said that driving sloppy a$$ drunk is a proper defense against agreeing to a breath test. That is your position.
And it's as nutty now as it was then. Stop your lying Sue.
In your words:
Yes, that's true, if they refuse to give their consent to a breath test, and later can document that they were too drunk to make that determination and to understand what they were doing, they can get off on the charge of refusing to consent to a breath test.
But, Dippy, (now get out your dictionary and read closely), here's what the court said:
"It is no defense to a refusal charge for drivers to claim that they were too drunk to understand the standard statement. See State v. Quaid, 172 N.J. Super. 533, 537 (Law Div. 1980). In other words, it is not necessary for the State to prove that a driver actually understood the warnings on a subjective level. Cf. Widmaier, supra, 157 N.J. at 498 ("[D]efendant's subjective intent is irrelevant in determining whether the defendant's responses to the officer constitute a refusal to take the test."). If properly informed in a language they speak or understand while sober, drivers can be convicted under the implied consent and refusal statutes. Voluntary, excessive drinking cannot and does not void the statutes. Indeed, that type of voluntary behavior is fundamentally distinct from a person's utter lack of ability to understand a foreign language."
Now we explained to you time, time, time and again how the court ruled exactly the opposite of your moronic statement, yet you dishonestly insisted you were correct. Then you dishonestly smeared mmfa by stating its article supported your uncommonly stupid position.
You lie like you breath. You just can't help it.
Another lie. How many is that on this thread alone, like 6!
What are you talking about, you freakin moron? Your statement speaks for itself. The context was someone pulled over for DUI who refuses to consent to a BAC test. In your infinite wisdom, you said "if they refuse to give their consent to a breath test, and later can document that they were too drunk to make that determination and to understand what they were doing, they can get off on the charge of refusing to consent to a breath test."
You were wrong, and now you continue to lie about it.
You're pathetic.
P.I.E.C.E. O.F. W.O.R.K.
She will lose it eventually, get banned again, have someone tell us that DellDolly suffered a stroke (like she did when her first reincarnation Sue got yanked), and then will surface with another name.
But it's still Sue.
She is toxic to many around here, she just doesn't like us because we have her number.
Oh how she hates that.
And just how many times have you blatantly used this word with DD simply because you disagree? You who are so quick to jump in and derail things. I personally find you very disengenious with every post you post here. You are NOT here to discuss ... you are here to divide and wreak havoc if possible. If folks were smart, they would simply ignore you. Sure, you have the right to believe what you choose, but to come here with your blather and consistently dress down MMfA for doing exactly what their vision/mission statement states is utterly ridiculous.
You tire me.
I was an avid Fox viewer in the late 90s and until that time. I started seeing the constant drumbeat of lies and distortions by the neo-conservatives [Kristol, Krauthammer, Bolton, Forbes, Frum, et al] on that network.
Nope, your assessment is incorrect.
But when liberals like DollySue say she and others openly accepted with welcoming arms "political differences" from those who were Iraq War proponents, I have to laugh out loud. Baloney. Every "difference" I read was slapped with a label of lying and distorting. So she can sell that elsewhere.
A political difference is entirely different from a lie, a distortion, or an omission of relevant information that pushes any particular political agenda.
It's not our fault that there's almost nothing factual that supports the conservative's political ideals when it comes to invading Iraq.
Tell us two good reasons to invade Iraq. You can't use that Saddam was a bad dictator, because he wasn't all that bad when we invaded, and there have been lots of terrible dictators around the world who we haven't deposed. You can't use the threat of WMD's, since we knew before we invaded that he almost certainly didn't have WMD's and we were sure that he didn't have any current capabilities to make any. You can't use the idea of nation-building, because Iraq was not a nation that could be held together without force, due to ethnic differences within the geographic boundaries. You can't say that you wanted a different climate from the religious countries around Iraq, since Iraq was a secular country. Of course you know that you can't link Iraq to 9/11, nor can you link Saddam to support of terrorists that threatened the USA or to such a great extent that we had to act - again, there were (and are) many countries that directly or indirectly support terrorists, and we don't invade those other countries. There are lots of countries led by dishonest dictators - but that's not a reason to invade a country, or else we'd be doing it every other week! And regime change as a reason isn't going to float either - again, without some other justification that demands that we intevene, regime change isn't sufficient reason to invade. Working towards peaceful change of regime? Fine. Invasion to accomplish that goal? Not supportable.
But feel free to give us two actual reasons to invade Iraq to validate your assertion that we were rejecting of political differences when it comes to reasons for invading Iraq.
Because, see, I know you can't. We rejected stupid ideas, unsupportable reasons for invading Iraq, not because they were pushed by our political opponents, but because they were STUPID and UNSUPPORTABLE!
Here's what I said - "I do welcome political differences based upon reality and the facts."
And I do. And I will, when it's presented. The failure of YOUR side to DO that (present reasonable political differences based upon factsa and reality) on very many occasions is NOT my flaw.
"It's not our fault that there's almost nothing factual that supports the conservative's political ideals when it comes to invading Iraq" - Dolly now.
HAHAHA!!
I rest my case.
Baby steps.
why dont you refute assertions with facts instead of resorting to personal attacks.
This is not a defense of Dell who I do not always agree with. She can defend herself. I am pointing out your hypocritical attacks which undermine your ability to argue effectively or be taken seriously.
If you'd care to address it, fine. Otherwise, well.
YOU are the one who asserted that "Every "difference" I read was slapped with a label of lying and distorting,", as though there were legit, reasonable political differences over the invasion of Iraq that were incorrectly labeled, and so I challenged you to provide two examples of those political differences that weren't lies or distortions to back up your claim.
You failed to do so - because you couldn't.
It was because of YOUR assertion that they exist that I challenged you to provide them, doofus. This isn't rocket science.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Why would YOU need to point them out? Because YOU asserted that there were political differences that existed that weren't simply lies or distortions or disproven assertions that had been mistakenly labelled as LIES or DISTORTIONS.
So THAT'S why the burden was on YOU to point those out, dummy!
I swear!!!!!!
And it's not a flaw to be honest and truthful and full of information, unless one is trying to be dishonest and deceptive and provide disinformation.
Why you would think that my pride in being the former, not the latter, is a bad thing is again, further evidence.
And I don't think you are honest and truthful, but you sure are full of something. But I do believe you believe you are honest and truthful.
Pride comes before the fall.
buh-bye
Because I correctly and accurately describe stupid people as doofuses and trolls as trolls?
I dispute that calling a spade a spade is immature or namecalling.
And it has NOTHING to do with them not holding the same view as ME - did you MISS this whole thread, which is ABOUT the false meme that rightwingers CONSTANTLY push that we on the left go after people solely because we disagree with them?
Good riddance, Jollymon. You got made a fool of by me when you first started posting here and you've never gotten over it, wimp. And as a result, you throw a jab at me every once in a while. How you think that even really constitutes a "contribution" is beyond me!
And your hypocrisy is also laughable. You are defending the view that "the left go after people solely because we disagree with them" by going around attacking others with different views or who you see as trolls. Like the first time I posted here with a valid point based on my personal experience and training in my area of expertise. And ohhhh how you attacked me as a troll, conservative, doofus, etc. Your ignorance and bias is what made you memorable, not your *snicker* making a "fool" of me. *laughs uncontrollably*
And wimp? Yeah, great comeback. You sure are tough from behind your keyboard judging everyone. And did you forget I am a Teufelhunden?
Continue your childish patrolling of MMFA for trolls. You obviously have nothing better to do with your sad little life at 11:59p ET. Pathetic.
Contribute that.
And you SHOULD call out people who exhibit namecalling and immaturity. But I did NOT do that, doofus, and so THAT'S I called YOU out when you baselessly accused ME of that. This is not rocket science. Your strawman argument, that I unreasonably objected to you doing a reasonable thing is bogus because you were NOT doing a reasonable thing when you called ME out! Get a clue!
I have NEVER gone after people with different views simply because they have different views. I ONLY go after people who are factually incorrect or stating unsupportable positions! And the fact that you can't/didn't provide a SINGLE example of my misbehavior is very telling, dummy. Again, get a clue - you don't get to get away with making unfounded accusations without being challenged on them.
Me calling YOU out for the posts you HAVE made, on the other hand, IS a legit way to document YOUR biases here. Your posting history IS a relevant topic that goes to your credibility!
You assserted that YOU had better PR instincts on how the Obama Administration should address FoxNews than the Obama Administration had, as though your life experiences were more credible than theirs are with dealing with politics on the national level. I doubted that, and still do, and then YOU questioned MY credentials, as though MY credentials were at issue! They weren't. It was YOUR credentials as an anonymous poster on some blog versus the credentials of Obama's staff to judge how he should behave WRT FoxNews! But you tried to make it about ME, which is what you're doing above.
You got nailed in our first interaction, UNDER a different screen name, and you came back with a chip on your shoulder.
And yes, people who behave the way YOU did are wimps.
And the reasons I post when I do and how I do are totally irrelevant to this discussion - but yet again, when you can't actually refute a thing I wrote, your only option is to make an irrelevant personal attack.
Grow up Sue. It's time.
There is no arguing with someone as egotistical and narcissistic as you.
I will just say this: I dealt with INTERNATIONAL PR work in the Marines. I wrote speeches and press releases for Generals, Consulate Workers and coordinated with Embassadors. I escorted U.S. and Japanese government officials on base tours. I worked with major news orginizations and am a published journalist and photographer. THAT is my credentials you arrogant know-it-all. But I don't go around bragging about how great and experienced I am like you do your troll hunting abilites. I don't take blog posts as serious as you do. I don't get my soiled panties in a bunch over trolls and people with different views as myself. Get over yourself and get a life. You are a joke.
Now go ahead and respond at what I liar I must be too. You Stupid Doofus! And don't lecture me about personal attacks. That is your game. Grow up!
Truly pathetic.
And thanks for documenting that you can't, in fact, provide ANY reasons why we should have invaded Iraq.
Which PROVES my point! "It's not our fault that there's almost nothing factual that supports the conservative's political ideals when it comes to invading Iraq."
That doesn't mean that we can't MOVE ON from the differences that we had! It means that there were NO legit differences, but it doesn't mean we can't move ON from those differences, doofus!
You're the one who suggested that there WERE legit political differences between those who supported the Iraqi war and those who didn't. It's not a flaw in MY argument that I challenged you to provide an example.
HUH? You bald faced liar. Show me.
When are you going to recognize that's a lame defense?
What assessment? I never said there wasn't principled opposition to the Iraq War, there was plenty of it. Me, included.
But when liberals like DollySue say she and others openly accepted with welcoming arms "political differences" from those who were Iraq War proponents, I have to laugh out loud. Baloney. Every "difference" I read was slapped with a label of lying and distorting.
As I said, YOU were the one who asserted that there were legit political differences between those who supported the Iraqi war and those who didn't. By writing that "every difference" was unfairly mocked as lying and distorting, you are asserting that some were, in fact, NOT dishonest or untrue reasons, but were in fact "legit political differences".
You're the bald-faced liar and a paid troll. Go home 10 minutes early now. Get a start on traffic.
You are a liar, and you got caught numerous times on this thread alone. Get some help Sue.
When you said
"But when liberals like DollySue say she and others openly accepted with welcoming arms "political differences" from those who were Iraq War proponents, I have to laugh out loud. Baloney. Every "difference" I read was slapped with a label of lying and distorting."
You were NOT talking about Iraq opponents! You were talking about Iraq War proponents.
As I said, we can SEE your previous posts. You can DENY that you said things, but we can prove that you wrote them!
You're the liar here. You're the person who said what you said. I caught you, and demanded that you back up your assertion that reasonable political differences were called LIES or DISTORTIONS.
But you can't. Because they don't exist. And so you're desperately flailing here, striking out in any and every direction, trying to distract from the fact that you failed miserably!
First you asserted earlier that there were legit political differences and that was what Obama was specifically addressing, and now you say there were NO legit differences. OMG!
Which is it?
With no help from me.
OH, and thanks for admitting that you DO have a quitting time as a paid troll.
I can ALWAYS handle your "challenges". For the past year, I have given you FITS. YOU are the one who runs from challenges, and must be thrilled when your quitting bell rings when you're getting your butt whipped by me or by others, and you declare yourself a winner or declare that you're fed up and won't argue any more, or any number of bogus excuses!
You earlier;
"Obama was SOLELY talking about not holding on to anomosity over political differences."
"Obama asked us to turn the page on those with whom we have political differences"
You above now;
"It means that there were NO legit differences"
B.U.S.T.E.D.
Poor Sue, always playing victim by whining about personal animus. You are like a broken record.
This thread, from top to bottom, has been a vehicle for two days brimming with your lies, distortions, name calling, desperation, more lies, personal attacks, contradictions and complete embarrassment. You know it. And you can't change it.
You will be reminded of this thread again Sue. So behave yourself.
Look, RightOn, this is my country, your country, DellDolly's country and MMFA's country, all of us Americans are part of this great nation. It does us no good to try and whitewash and distort the past for the sake of your favored political party. Think of your country before you knee-jerk to defend those who lied and distorted the facts to push for bad policy that ended up costing lives and billions of dollars.
To Funnymanpants;
Thanks DellDolly.
It is NOT directed towards ignoring these serial misinformers. It WAS directed towards moving past political differences.
See, to ME, the facts are important, and so when Funnymanpants got it wrong, I let him know. Because it's not the person who made the comment, but the content of the comment that's important!
Just because another poster didn't get it right doesn't give you any immunity from YOUR gross distortion of what Obama said!
And I just blew that little hair-splitting phony-as-hell assertion of yours out of the water, above.
Obama was SOLELY talking about not holding on to anomosity over political differences.
He was NEVER talking about NOT holding on to objections about serial misinforming being hired by a supposedly legit news organization!
You claimed that MMFA was somehow violating Obama's instructions by posting this list. They weren't. That's undeniable, yet you deny it.
YOU got caught. I understand that you'd prefer the old days, when you used to get away with these distortions, and you'd be able to successfuly redirect the conversation. Too bad, so sad.
MMFA pointed out serial misinformers, and just a few of the multitude of examples of the disinformation these fools spew in the furtherance of the conservative agenda!
Your history here, the long and sordid one with numerous screen names, only documents that.
First off, it's pretty obvious to normal Americans that the President was talking about moving beyond political differences, but apparently to the right wing who parse, twist, takes out of context and distorts everything the President says, it's a he-said she-said.
My god, listen to yourself. If the President said he liked turkey sandwiches, you'd claim it was a smear against the beef industry!
If Dell Dolly said it was September, you'd claim she was lying according to the chinese calendar!
And that's why your complaint about MMFA discussing how serial misinformers get too much sway at FoxNews being a disavowal of Obama's challenge just doesn't hold water.
As Obama also said in that same reference, "The greatness of our democracy is grounded in our ability to move beyond our differences, and to learn from our experience as we confront the many challenges ahead."
So yes, if someone makes ONE error, we shouldn't assume that everything they do forever afterwards is tainted by that one error (think Senator Robert Byrd and the KKK). Instead, we should learn from experience (as Byrd did) and then JUDGE people based upon their overall behavior, rather than tainting them forever based upon one bad choice.
But if someone is a serial misinformer, one AGAIN should judge them based upon their OVERALL BEHAVIOR! And FoxNews chose to employ all these serial dishonest people!
It'd be stupid to not learn from experience. And that experience should tell anyone with half a brain that the people MMFA listed above are NOT reliable purveyors of reality, but instead are political partisans who will lie, distort or omit relevant info in order to win a short-term political gain.
If they were to change, like David Brock did, then it would be unfair to continue to have a kneejerk dismissal of anything they said. But they haven't changed.
One liberal does one bad thing ever, and it creates a false equivalence and excuses all conservatives who do anything similar retro-actively and into eternity.
Also, remember Dolly that conservatives always believe the end justifies the means if the end is something they favor politically.
This was patently clear following the My Lai massacre during the Vietnam war and a comparison between the treatment of "The Lion of Malaya", General Yamashita, (execution) and General Westmoreland (SFA). I suggest that younger posters read up on the life and career of Gen. Yamashita and compare his situation with Westmoreland. It is instructive. It is also instructive to read the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal findings on "waterboarding" and compare it with the Bush administration's attitude to the same action.
Rank hypocrisy is too kind a description.
President Obama did indeed say it's time to turn the page.
But, not only is it a really, really big "page", but I watched the entire speech and President Obama never once said "...then burn the book."
Remember, this chapter in history started nearly nine years ago, within days of the 9/11 attacks (maybe earlier) and MMFA is identifying only a few of the "Those" in the "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
I can't wait to see what this chapter will look like in Texas history books.
Obama was admirably trying to reach out and begin the healing, if combat missions are over then isn't it time for combat missions within the ranks of the tried and true partisans here to end as well, I think that was his point.
But not for Rove. And not for MMfA.
Pointing out the perpetual liars isn't "combat", it's journalism.
Look it up.
As I explained above....
Obama wasn't talking about withdrawing the troops with that specific comment - he was talking about moving on from differences that we might have had with our political opponents.
But the stuff MMFA lists above aren't "political differences". They are lies, distortions and omissions of relevant information that poison our national discourse!
RightON is simply trying to cloud the picture here.
I happen to agree with Obama that reconciliation with our political enemies needs to occur - not all Dems feel that way, but I do. But that doesn't equate to ignoring serial misinformers! That doesn't equal giving those serial misinformers an extended national platform from which they continue to spew disinformation that furthers the conservative agenda!
MMFA is saying here that FoxNews shouldn't get a pass for hiring these people who have proven to be serial misinformers. MMFA is NOT saying, as you are alleging, that these people should be rejected because their POLITICS differs from Obama's. It's because they abuse the truth because of their strong desire to push a politically partisan agenda.
Of course we all know that without well paid liars and multi billion partisan media outlets to push their agenda, they would lose political power and the power to enrich their suggar-daddy benefactors.
More corrupt and vile governments and agendas have come before us with far less sophisticated media operations to deceive the masses before. The right wing is in very poor company in regards to how they push through their unpopular and destructive agenda.
I've got a 60ish neighbor, loyal Fox watcher, who always yammers on and on about Chapiquiddick, Lewinsky and Gore/Internet. But when it comes to Iraq, he gets all earnest about the need to "turn the page." And that's when I laugh in his face, tell him he's a complete hypocrite and watch him march off in a huff.
Fellow liberals, if the tables were turned, do you really believe these right wingers would allow the left to turn the page on the Iraq War? If you said yes, then you're not paying attention.
Only you did.
For a person pretending to be non partisan, you sure do act partisan.
Is that close? If not, please clarify the nature of your point, thank you!
Turning the page.
So were those who for worked their tails off for years to secure the right to vote for women. What a bunch of entrenched partisans!
Oh, and don't forget the civil rights movement, which never would have gotten off the ground with the work of those horrible, god-awful entrenched partisans who refused to "turn the page" on civil rights.
Don't expect to get anything more from me than a "HUH?"
But that's OK, it looks like creating a strawman is your safest bet for maintaining your superiority to the evil, godless entrenched partisans.
But hey, take some credit. It was the biggest leap of sidestepping wowza I have seen in awhile.
You have objected to "entrenched partisanship." I was simply trying to note that such a term (as with almost any term or hrase) can have different meanings for different people. Another way of putting it is, one person's "entrenched partisanship" could be another person's "bold steadfastness."
I'm sorry for this, but I swear that Lincoln was the first historical figure who came to my mind as fitting this scneario. Many in the South accused Lincoln of playing politics, of being an "entrenched partisan" if you will, over the issues of slavery and states rights.
I did not realize that referring to Lincoln, and indirectly to the fact that many in the South viewed him as an entrenched partisan, was just a patently dishonorable attempt by me to justify my own blind partisanship.
And I also, obviously, did not realize that bringing up the issue of slavery is verboten for anyone trying to have a dialog about politics in the United States of America.
Perhaps you can provide a list of subjects that are permissible when discussing partisan politics in America. Thank you and much obliged.
Of course people accused Lincoln of all sorts of things, but unless you think he was only invested in keeping score and not really solving the problem, which was slavery, then introducing him as some relevance to entrenched partisanship was a head scratcher.
I'm guessing that happens a lot for you.
I now wear a helmet when posting.
So you aren't familiar with the old saying...
Closing the barn door after the horse is gone?
But actually, the helmet isn't to keep smart stuff penned in, but stupid stuff out. :)
Thanks - honing the act you know. And in that vein...
That's not a helmet... that's a tin foil hat! (hi-ohhh! that's me doing Ed McMahon)
So who gets to assess whether someone is an entrenched partisan? In my mind, that is a matter of personal opinion, and there will not be total agreement.
Of course I don't think Lincoln was an entrenched partisan. I think you've missed my entire point there -- again, one person's entrenched partisan is another person's bold, steadfast leader.
Good luck, right ON, and may God bless you.
I already gave you my definition of an entrenched partisan. It's not a blurry distinction for me.
What I have said is, there will naturally be disagreement on which people meet that defintion. Much of the reason for this natural disagreement is that your definition includes the person's motivations.
For example: Some people assert that anyone who wants criminal prosecutions of those who authorized torture of prisoners is an "entrenched partisan" whose only goal is to gain a political advantage.
Others counter that a person can want such prosecutions for various non-political reasons, and so those who desire going that direction aren't necessarily entrenched partisans.
Bottom line, all I've been saying is that the decision of whether a particular person meets your (very clear) definition of an "entrenched partisans" is still a matter of subjective opinion. And it's awfully informative to see that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge this simple truth, in a "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink the water" kind of way.
Yet you go off on some ridiculous tangent about subjective meanings while continuing to bring irrelevant tangential analogies instead of directly responding to what you originally replied to. That is hilarious.
Look, I can play liberal word games all day long, but it gets rather tedious and boring especially when you spin yourself in circles as you have been doing here.
If you don't agree with my take on entrenched partisanship, then just say so. To drum up silly comparisons is what wordsmith drenched liberals do, but I am not impressed.
He did NOT ask us to ignore those who lie for a living, like you, or those who are toxic to our nation discourse because of their dishonest portrayals of reality in furtherance of their politically partisan agenda!
In fact, Obama has actively had his White House staff, and he himself on occasion, call out those dishonest hacks! He doesn't think that they need to be ignored or forgiven.
Political differences are NOT equivalent to LIES, distortions, and omissions of relevant info, no matter how many times or how many different ways you try to claim that they are!
You are as phony as the numerous screen names you have trotted out here after your potty mouth has gotten you yanked. Do you honestly expect anyone other than some small minded like minded phony like you to believe that load of baloney?
Read the archives here Sue, or look at your old posts under LuvLuLu or Notthatgeorge or whatever name you used at that time and show me where "political differences" from proponents of the Iraq War were met with anything other than a lie or a distortion accusation thrown at them. That was your MO, there were no political difference in your mind, there were only liars and warmongers.
People who tell lies purposely to misdirect the agenda of the United States of America when lives are at stake should all be forgiven then?
People who push this nation to war for reasons unrelated to national security should all be forgiven, but we can never forgive anyone who tries to spread unthinkable horrors like...health care insurance reform?
As I challenged you long ago, show us those legit political stances that were dishonestly called lies or distortions of reality if they exist!
I don't care who did it - again, I'm still not Sue, despite your apparent fondest wishes to believe that I am.
YOU are the one alleging that it happened. Prove it.
Or STFU.
Sue said that Obama was requesting the page be turned on the Iraq War. I said partisans won't do it. Sue maintains Obama was speaking of legit political differences, not lies and distortions. I said that was baloney because according to the most vocal Iraq opponents there were no legit political differences, they were all lies and distortions. Of which Sue said above Yep, all lies fabricated to gin up an invalid war.
That is the context, the rest of Sue's nonsense is her trying to dodge her lies. And you, again, are clueless to that.
Hope that clears it up for ya.....
Repeatedly, you have failed to do so - and that's because there weren't any.
That doesn't mean that there weren't any legit political differences during that timeframe, doofus.
If you are referring to my reply to bintx above, you'd better read it again.
IOW, she was right!
And Rumsfeld, Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz, and yes, GW Bush, are guilty of murder.
IOW, she was right!
And Rumsfeld, Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz, and yes, GW Bush, are guilty of murder.
...Up on the stage, here I go
Playin' star again, there I go
Turn the page...
If you've never read the PNAC's position papers from that period of time, you should try reading them. Rebuilding America's Defenses for the 21st Century has the invasion of Iraq outlined, right down to the part where they say it would take an event like "Pearl Harbor" to convince the American people of the need. It was written in September 2000.
The difference, jms, is that, according to the Inspector General's report, the Bush administration KNEW that there were no WMDs. It was stated that Douglas Feith as head of the "Office of Special Plans," inappropriately manipulated pre-invasion intelligence to justify the Bush administration's pre-conceived plans. In other words, jms, the PNAC members in the Bush Administration [and there were TONS of them], cooked the books. Doesn't MATTER what Clinton believed or anyone else believed . . . the Bush administration KNEW there were no WMDs. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, WMDs or anything else they said.
Capice?
Nothing has been debunked.
Get out more.
This speaks to the false links cited between Iraq and al Qaeda. The WMD claims were debunked by the UN weapons inspectors who were still in the process of their inspection when Bush ordered the bombings.
Oh, and the only paycheck I get is from the firm where I've been employed for 25 years.
Again, you fail.
Is mmfa giving you a long holiday weekend?
Really, jms, just because someone a) disagrees with your faux conservatism and that of your faux conservatism heroes and b) is more informed than you . . . doesn't mean that they work for this website. Just means they disagree with you and they're more informed than you are.
Have a good one, jms.
You mean the Senate report that reached a consensus view that the intelligence was flawed but never even a majority view that Bush KNEW or tried to mislead? That one?
The UN Weapons Inspectors had actual evidence, or actually a LACK of evidence, and not just educated guesses, which is what the intelligence was.
Facts beat supposition EVERY DAY. How do you NOT know this?
The issue isn't, as admittedly many people on the left TRY to make it, whether or not Bush believed the intelligence or manipulated it.
The issue is the information Bush got in the 3 months before we actually invaded that debunked the intelligence we thought was correct for years before that.
And Bush knew before he invaded that the previous intelligence has been wrong, that the WMD's didn't exist!
That fault lies 100% with the Bush Administration.
But Obama is saying that we have to wage the war he inherited.
But ALL of that has NO relevance to MMFA pointing out that FoxNews has given a home to a bunch of serial misinformers.
HAHAHA!!
There Sue, you just said it. Now, can you please give me an example of a "political difference" that you would openly accept and not call a lie based on what you just posted above?
This is not rocket science.
It's not my failure that the Bush Administration GAVE WMD's as the reason, yet it wasn't a reason since the UN Weapons Inspectors had debunked the intelligence the USA had been relying upon for years.
I swear, get a clue!
The political difference was, "Do we get people killed for big oil or not?".
I say no, what say you?
She was the one who said "he [Obama] was talking about moving on from differences that we might have had with our political opponents."
Obviously she is acknowledging there were political differences, otherwise her statement above is nonsense, even though she has contradicted herself on this thread alone (above) several times.
from the U.N. oil-for-food program."
Keep up, jms.
Really, keep up, jms. You're looking foolish.
Joe Biden WAS NOT the PRESIDENT! And HE DID NOT have the RESPONSIBILITY to MAKE SURE the intelligence WAS CORRECT before SENDING YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN TO DIE!!!
And wasn't it Bush, who landed on a freaking aircraft carrier in May 2003 and told the country "major combat operations in Iraq have ended"?
So what do YOU call, 486 American soldiers dying in 2003, 849 in 2004, 846 in 2005, 822 in 2006, 904 in 2007 and 314 in 2008?
WHO do YOU want to blame for THAT LIE? Joe Biden?.... Bill Clinton?... Daffy Duck?
Quite trying to pass the d*mn buck!
Even Bush Sr. KNEW it would be a disaster to invade Iraq:
Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.
Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho? We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power — America in an Arab land — with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous. We don't gain the size of our victory by how many innocent kids running away — even though they're bad guys — that we can slaughter. ... We're American soldiers; we don't do business that way.
No. Bush did not land that plane, he was a passenger. Bush dressed up like a pilot to play warrior, but he was just a passenger.
OTOH, Bush was just a passenger in his entire administration. Cheney was the pilot.
"So what do YOU call, 486 American soldiers dying in 2003, 849 in 2004, 846 in 2005, 822 in 2006, 904 in 2007 and 314 in 2008?"
I call it murder for profit, and charge Cheney with the murders. With Bush guilty because he was the 'decider'.
What you'll get in response: Mockery and derision for asking such a pointless question. Accusations that you're just using liberal word games for partisan political gain.
What you won't get in response: Anything resembling an honest answer.
Best of luck!
You just played liberal word games because you must thought serving up that casserole of nonsense was cute.
And I didn't swallow your buffet. Sorry.