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Right-wing media don't want to stimulate the economy

September 08, 2010 9:02 am ET — 185 Comments

Since President Obama took office, right-wing media figures have opposed every major package proposed to stimulate the economy, despite support from a consensus of economists and economic analysts. Recent opposition has included Obama's newly proposed infrastructure plan, the extension of unemployment insurance, aid to states, and food stamps, all of which have been shown to stimulate the economy.

Conservatives oppose the infrastructure plan 

Drudge: "Obama Addicted to Stimulus" On September 6, Matt Drudge declared  that in proposing the infrastructure plan, Obama was "addicted to stimulus" :

Doocy links infrastructure project to original "porkulus." On September 7, Fox News' Fox & Friends co-host Steve Doocy said the plan would be a second stimulus, "much like the so-called 'porkulus,' $787 billion."

Opposing the "son of stimulus," Doocy said that "White House need a plan B." Later during that program, Doocy said that "it seems like this White House needs a plan B, but they keep going back to plan A" with "this son of stimulus."

Varney: "It is a stimulus plan for the unions." Fox & Friends also hosted Stu Varney to attack the infrastructure program, which he claimed was a "stimulus plan for the unions." He later falsely suggested that the stimulus didn't work, claiming: "It's all about government spending, take it from this group, give it to that group, and it hasn't worked."

Morrissey: Obama's jobs plan is the "same failed and expensive Keynesianism that he tried in February 2009." In a September 6 Hot Air post, right-wing blogger Ed Morrissey falsely claimed that the stimulus bill of 2009 was a "failed policy" while discussing Obama's new jobs proposal:

What happens when over a hundred billion dollars in borrowed cash gets plunged into infrastructure spending and it fails to kick-start the economy?  According to this administration, spend another $50 billion on the same failed policy. Barack Obama will unveil his new economic stimulus plan in Wisconsin today, while Russ Feingold looks for a place to hide:

[...]

In this election cycle, pork may be all Democrats can use as an argument for re-election.  They certainly larded the first stimulus bill with plenty of home-town pork, and with $50 billion more in borrowed cash, don't expect them to be shy the second time around.

However, don't expect it to work, either.  The original Porkulus had $105 billion in so-called "infrastructure investments," and none of it produced any economic growth.  Transportation accounted for $48 billion; energy infrastructure and R&D got the same amount of money.  Housing got $10 billion.  Front loaded or not, the money got allocated and borrowed, and we're back to flatlining economic growth just eighteen months later -- only now we have a lot more debt on top of the other problems we had.

Economists agree spending on infrastructure a "good idea," a second stimulus package is needed

Krugman: Infrastructure plan is "a good idea," although what has been proposed is "much too small." In a September 7 blog post, Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman wrote that the proposal to spend $50 billion on infrastructure spending was "a good idea," although he felt the proposed amount of money to be spent was "much too small." He argued that it was "better" to "put $50 billion of resources that would otherwise be idle to work" by using the money "to produce public goods like improved roads," than it would be to spend the money on "private goods like more consumer durables." He added:

And there's a pretty good argument to be made that we are, in fact, starved for public goods in this country, so that it would actually be a good idea to shift some resources to public goods production even if we were at full employment; in that case, we should definitely give priority to public goods when trying to put unemployed resources to work.

Tyson advocates for increased infrastructure spending to create jobs and "the ability to grow and be productive in the future." When asked about the possible need for larger stimulus spending on the September 5 broadcast of CBS' Face the Nation, former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers Laura Tyson said:

I believe that we should look at infrastructure because we know before the recession, before the great recession, we know that we were vastly under-spending on the nation's infrastructure. You can sort of, therefore, start with the notion: infrastructure spending is terrific in two ways. It creates demand right away when you go out and get the project started and get the workers started. It also creates the ability to grow and be productive in the future.


Krugman: "Back in January '09 ... a number of us said, 'This is not commensurate with the scale of the crisis.' " On the September 5 broadcast of ABC's This Week, Krugman noted that many economists raised concerns that the stimulus might not be large enough when it was first proposed. Krugman said, "Back in January '09, when Obama was first announcing his plans, a number of us said this is not commensurate with the scale of the crisis." Krugman later added, "What we need is more demand."

Morgenson: "The stimulus was not big enough ... we need something instant." Also on Face the Nation, New York Times assistant business and financial editor Gretchen Morgenson, who received the Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for coverage of Wall Street, said: "The stimulus was not big enough. Because you would have seen far greater recovery. The unemployment numbers would be better, I think, if you had, if we wanted to think the stimulus was enough. But again I think that it has to be targeted. I think that what Laura, the point she made earlier is a good one. That is, let's go for things that will have a more immediate impact like, say, a payroll tax cut holiday or a payroll tax holiday. We need something instant, something a little bit quicker."

Zandi: "[A]dditional help" for the recovery "would be prudent." When asked about the possible need for a second stimulus on Face the Nation, Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Analytics and a former economic adviser to John McCain's presidential campaign, answered:

Well, we are talking about other stimulus, right? I mean, an R&D tax credit, payroll tax holiday, job tax credit. All these things are different forms of stimulus. In fact, the federal government has provided a couple hundred billions dollars in additional stimulus beyond the recovery act stimulus that we put in place a year-and-a-half ago. So, we are doing that. In my view the recovery needs some more help. It would be prudent, I think, to provide some additional help through some of the things that we're talking about.

Conservatives opposed extending unemployment insurance

Fox hosts guest to deny that "unemployment check[s] creates jobs." On the July 15 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Brian Kilmeade hosted Partnership Staffing Inc. CEO Bill Auchmoody, who claimed that unemployment benefits prevent unemployed workers from searching for jobs. During the segment, Kilmeade played House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's statement that unemployment insurance stimulates the economy and asked Auchmoody to comment. Auchmoody stated: "I don't know how an unemployment check creates jobs. You know, businesses create jobs. The economy and the government getting out of the way, in my opinion, helps create jobs."  

Kilmeade: "Maybe" eliminating "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up" and get jobs. Referencing Senate Republicans who have blocked extending unemployment benefits, Kilmeade concluded the interview by telling Auchmoody that "maybe"  the elimination of "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up and take some of your offers."

Varney seizes on WSJ op-ed to claim that "unemployment would be at 6.8%, not the 9.5%," if Congress hadn't "extended unemployment benefits." On the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, Fox Business host Stuart Varney cited a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Harvard economics professor and Hoover Institute senior fellow Robert Barro to claim that, in Varney's words, "If we had not extended unemployment benefits to 99 weeks from the standard 26 weeks, [Barro] says, unemployment would be at 6.8%, not the 9.5%." According to Varney, Barro argued that "you extend benefits like this and it discourages people from going out to look for work especially, you know, the start of the benefit period because it's nearly two years."

Conservatives: Pelosi's statement that unemployment insurance is "a job creator," "laughable," and "provably incorrect." Following Pelosi's statement that unemployment insurance "injects demand into the economy" and "is a job creator," several conservative media figures mocked the notion. For example, blogger Ed Morrissey wrote that "the laughable notion from Nancy Pelosi that jobless benefits provide the biggest possible stimulus to the economy that Congress can create" is "both ridiculous and provably incorrect." Similarly, after playing Pelosi's comments on the the July 2 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Alisyn Camerota called them "curious" and said it was "hard to parse the logic" of them." Glenn Beck also reacted incredulously to Pelosi's statement, asking, "Have you ever head of a guy who said, 'Hey, just a sec, I'm gonna pay you out of my unemployment check'?"

Economists agree that unemployment insurance has strong stimulative effect on GDP, employment

Krugman: "Aid to the unemployed creates jobs quickly." In his July 4 op-ed, Krugman wrote:

One main reason there aren't enough jobs right now is weak consumer demand. Helping the unemployed, by putting money in the pockets of people who badly need it, helps support consumer spending. That's why the Congressional Budget Office rates aid to the unemployed as a highly cost-effective form of economic stimulus. And unlike, say, large infrastructure projects, aid to the unemployed creates jobs quickly -- while allowing that aid to lapse, which is what is happening right now, is a recipe for even weaker job growth, not in the distant future but over the next few months.

CBO scores "increasing aid to the unemployed" as the highest-scoring policy proposal to stimulate economy. In a January 14 report on "Policies for Increasing Economic Growth and Employment in 2010 and 2011," the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) stated:

Policies that could be implemented relatively quickly or targeted toward people whose consumption tends to be restricted by their income, such as reducing payroll taxes for firms that increase payroll or increasing aid to the unemployed, would have the largest effects on output and employment per dollar of budgetary cost in 2010 and 2011.

According to a table in the report, CBO estimated that increasing aid to the unemployed would have the greatest effects on GDP per dollar of budgetary cost and the second highest cumulative effect on employment of the policy options considered.

policytable

Elmendorf: Policies such as unemployment insurance "have a significant impact on GDP." In January 2009, CBO director Douglas Elmendorf testified:

Transfers to persons (for example, unemployment insurance and nutrition assistance) would also have a significant impact on GDP. Because a large amount of such spending can occur quickly, transfers would have a significant impact on GDP by early 2010. Transfers also include refundable tax credits, which have an impact similar to that of a temporary tax cut.

A dollar's worth of a temporary tax cut would have a smaller effect on GDP than a dollar's worth of direct purchases or transfers, because a significant share of the tax cut would probably be saved. The nonbusiness tax cuts in H.R. 1 would reduce revenues much more in calendar year 2010 than in calendar year 2009 because much of the reduction in taxes would be realized by households when they filed their returns in 2010.

Zandi estimated that extending unemployment insurance benefits provides significant stimulus. In his July 24, 2008, House testimony, Zandi rated "Fiscal Economic Bank for the Buck," defined as "One year $ change in real GDP for a given $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase in spending." "Extending UI Benefits" was the second-highest of 13 policy options, behind "Temporary Increase in Food Stamps." The Economic Policy Institute created the following graphic based on Zandi's figures:

stimulusbenefits

Center on Budget and Policy Priorities: "The money gets spent fast and its effects spread through the economy." From an April 16 Center on Budget and Policy Priorities document:

Temporary increases in unemployment insurance benefits score high in "bang-for-the-buck" calculations of their economic impact as stimulus. The money gets spent fast and its effects spread through the economy. As a result of such policies, local businesses are less apt to lay off workers and cut back on orders from their suppliers during a downturn; and in the early stages of a recovery, they are more apt to hire additional workers and step up their orders. Policymakers have always ended these emergency UI benefits once a strong and sustainable economic recovery is underway.

Joseph Stiglitz: Stimulus "should begin by strengthening the unemployment insurance system." In a January 23, 2008, op-ed, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz wrote that "America's economy is headed for a major slowdown" and that "[t]he country needs stimulus." Proceeding to describe the "optimal package," Stiglitz recommended: "We should begin by strengthening the unemployment insurance system, because money received by the unemployed would be spent immediately."

Blinder: "Extending unemployment benefits is one of the best forms of stimulus we know." On July 2, NPR reported that former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve and Clinton economic adviser Alan Blinder "supports the effort to extend expiring unemployment benefits." NPR quoted Blinder as saying: "Extending unemployment benefits is one of the best forms of stimulus we know."

Martire: Stimulus from unemployment benefits "greater than any other fiscal action government can take." In a June 30 piece in the State Journal-Register of Springfield, Illinois, Center for Tax and Budget Accountability executive director Ralph Martire wrote:

As for the contention that extending UI encourages people to avoid finding jobs so they can stay on the public dole -- well, it's just plain goofy. In May 2010, the private sector created only 41,000 jobs. That's 72,000 less than what's needed to keep up with the demand generated by natural work-force growth, much less creating the positions needed for the unemployed to find work. No one's thumbing a nose at getting hired to live in luxury eating government cheese -- there simply are no private sector jobs available.

Perhaps the hawks have forgotten that consumer spending accounts for more than two-thirds of the nation's economy. The best consumers are low- and middle-income folks, who don't earn enough to save, so they spend their paychecks. That is, when they have paychecks. See, if they've lost their jobs and the private sector isn't creating jobs and the feds cut off unemployment benefits, their ability to spend drops to, well, nil. Which is why the amount of private sector economic activity stimulated by unemployment benefits is greater than any other fiscal action government can take. In fact, dollar-for-dollar, it's five times more stimulative than the Bush tax cuts.

Sure, the long-term deficit has to be dealt with -- but honestly and responsibly. Short-term, deficit spending -- particularly on things like unemployment insurance, food stamps, housing assistance and the like -- is creating jobs and saving the U.S. economy from disaster.

EPI's Mishel explains why unemployment insurance is "such good stimulus." In a June 10 hearing before the House Ways and Means Income Security and Family Support Subcommittee, the Economic Policy Institute's Lawrence Mishel testifed:

As I have explained, the only real option for increasing economic activity and consumer demand for goods and services is federal government intervention in the economy, specifically through more deficit spending. The safety net programs are a vital part of this picture.

[...]

The reason extending unemployment insurance is such good stimulus is that it gets money to people who are the most likely to have depleted their savings and thus tend to have no choice but to quickly spend essentially every dollar they receive on necessities found in their local economy. In other words, virtually every dollar spent on extending unemployment insurance benefits goes directly, and immediately, toward the purchase of local goods and services, providing an extremely efficient demand boost. Not only is extending and expanding UI benefits the right thing to do for the people hurt most by this economic downturn, it is also excellent economic policy.

CEPR's Schmitt: Unemployment insurance helps "sustain a community." In an April 28 article, McClatchy Newspapers reported:

And allowing workers to fall off the unemployment insurance rolls can have negative ripple effects, said John Schmitt, senior economist with the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

"It hits individuals hard, but it also hits their communities, and more broadly the country," Schmitt said. "Having unemployment insurance benefits can help sustain a community through a very difficult time."

Conservatives opposed aid package to schools and states

NYP's McMahon: " 'Rescue' plan to sink New York." In an August 6 New York Post column, E.J. McMahon declared the $26 billion aid package to states and school districts to be "[m]ore stimulus poison." He claimed that the "the result" of the package "will be even more spending that New York taxpayers can't possibly sustain."

NYP attacked plan by falsely suggesting it would increase the deficit. An August 12 New York Post editorial misleadingly claimed that CBO said the recently passed state aid bill "will bloat the deficit another $13 billion over 10 years, using 'pay as you go' accounting." However, that figure excludes much of the savings used to pay for the bill, and CBO said that when accounting for these savings, the measure reduces deficits by around $1.4 billion over 10 years.

Hoft: "Nancy Pelosi's Cash for Democrat Reelection Program." In a August 10 Gateway Pundit post, Jim Hoft dubbed the aid package "Nancy Pelosi's Cash for Democrat Reelection Program" and highlighted GOP Rep. Michele Bachmann's dubious claim that the money would "allow public employee unions to run ads against the GOP in the upcoming election on the taxpayers' dime." Hoft declared this to be "outrageous."

Malkin: Pelosi "deserves a swift rap on the knuckles for hiding underneath the desk of the American schoolteacher." In an August 11 column, Michelle Malkin attacked the aid package as an example of "fiscal recklessness." From her column:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi deserves a swift rap on the knuckles for hiding underneath the desk of the American schoolteacher. In a cynical ploy to evade accountability for the Democrats' continued fiscal recklessness, Pelosi accused opponents of the $26 billion public employee union bailout bill of "demeaning" teachers -- and nurses, police officers and firefighters.

Beck: State aid is "trapping your state into making sure that they cannot tighten their belt." On the August 11 broadcast of Beck's radio show, he asserted that the aid package is "trapping your state into making sure that they cannot tighten their belt." He added that they're "putting cement in front of the exit doors" and that the assistance will lead to a "global system." Beck also falsely suggested that the assistance package would add to the deficit and spoke in a drawl and got down on his knees to attack this package.

Economists stress the stimuluative effects of state aid

Zandi: State aid boosts GDP by $1.36 for every dollar spent. In testimony given on July 24, 2008, before the House Committee on Small Business, Zandi noted that "General Aid to State Governments" would boost real GDP by $1.36 for every dollar spent. Zandi also testified to the benefits of providing aid to state governments, specifically in the form of expanding Medicaid funds:

Another economically potent stimulus is aid to financially-pressed state governments. This could take the form of general aid or a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate, to help ease the costs of health coverage. Such help appears unlikely in the current stimulus plan, but this could quickly change in coming weeks if the economy's problems grow more severe and widespread as the legislation is being fashioned.

Fiscal problems have already developed in half the nation's states. Tax revenue growth has slowed sharply with flagging retail sales and corporate profits. Income tax receipts are also sure to suffer as the job market weakens. California and Florida are under the most financial pressure, but states as far-flung as Arizona, Minnesota, and Maryland are also struggling.

As most state governments are required by their constitutions to quickly eliminate their deficits, most are already drawing up plans to cut funding for programs ranging from health care to education and cutting grants to local government. Local governments are having their own financial problems; most rely on property-tax revenues, which are slumping with house prices. Cuts in state and local government outlays are sure to become a substantial drag on the economy later this year and into 2009.

The following table accompanied Zandi's testimony:

burnett-20090129

Center for Budget and Policy Priorities: State aid "would constitute one of the most effective uses of" federal dollars. In a March report, Center for Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) economists Iris J. Lav, Nicholas Johnson and Elizabeth McNichol concluded:

State fiscal assistance under ARRA will end or largely be exhausted by the end of calendar year 2010. Unfortunately, big state deficits are expected to continue through state fiscal year 2012 -- that is, for another 18 months or so after 2010 ends. If states do not receive additional federal assistance beyond the scheduled expiration of such aid, they will be forced to institute further deep budget cuts and/or substantial tax increases. Such actions would place a drag on the U.S. economy, impeding the recovery and costing many jobs. Such measures also could cause serious hardship for many families and individuals that have lost their jobs and are relying on Medicaid and other key state services to make it through this unusually painful economic downturn.

For both economic and other reasons, the provision of some additional fiscal relief, so that such relief is extended or phased down after 2010 rather than ending abruptly at that point, would be highly desirable. It would constitute one of the most effective uses of additional dollars to boost the weak economy and preserve or create jobs.

EPI: State aid "can help prevent" further economic downturn." In a January 11, 2008 report, the Economic Policy Institute noted:

During times of recession, state budgets are hit particularly hard. Reductions in tax receipts and cyclical increases in state spending put pressure on budgets -- and since most states have balanced budget requirements, they are forced to either reduce spending or increase taxes in times of decreased economic activity. These actions perversely add to economic troubles by decreasing the total demand for goods and services, and thus intensify a recession. As such, direct federal assistance to states can help prevent these outcomes and stimulate the economy. In the last recession, Congress provided $20 billion in aid to the states, split between general revenue sharing and a temporary increase in the federal match for Medicaid. The same kind of assistance should be provided to the states once again, with $30 billion split equally between a general block grant and an increase in the Medicaid match.

Conservatives opposed increased funding for food stamps

O'Reilly: "[I]ncreased food stamps" have "nothing to do with stimulating the economy." On the January 28, 2009, edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, host Bill O'Reilly claimed that "increased food stamps" have "nothing to do with stimulating the economy." Earlier in the day on his radio show, O'Reilly similarly claimed that "enhanced food stamps" in the bill are "not gonna help the economy at all. That will not help the economy one bit." He added: "In fact, in the entitlement realm, just giving people money who are poor is about $250 billion. Some of that money will be spent. Some of it, like food stamps, you know, it's not gonna help the economy."

CNN's Brown falsely claimed that "food stamps, unemployment benefits not likely to stimulate the economy." On the January 27, 2009, edition of CNN's Campbell Brown: No Bias, No Bull, host Campbell Brown asserted: "Food stamps, unemployment benefits not likely to stimulate the economy because these are the people who are in the most dire straits spending the bare minimum." Brown added: "So the stimulus part comes from the big spending package that we're going to talk about." CNN's chief business correspondent Ali Velshi responded: "Right. And, you know, maybe the $500 or $1,000 you get per family. But you're absolutely right. There are some of these things that are more about recovery than stimulus. The administration likes to call it a recovery bill. If you're giving food stamps and you're giving unemployment benefits, that's not stimulus; that's simply helping people out who are in a lot of trouble."

Economists widely acknowledge stimulative nature of food stamps

Elmendorf: "Nutrition assistance" would "have a significant impact on GDP." In January 27, 2009, written testimony before the House Budget Committee, Elmendorf stated that "[t]ransfers to persons (for example, unemployment insurance and nutrition assistance) would ... have a significant impact on GDP." He added: "Because a large amount of such spending can occur quickly, transfers would have a significant impact on GDP by early 2010. Transfers also include refundable tax credits, which have an impact similar to that of a temporary tax cut."

Zandi: "[E]xtending food stamps are the most effective ways to prime the economy's pump." In his July 24, 2008, written testimony before the House Committee on Small Business, Zandi stated that "extending food stamps are [sic] the most effective ways to prime the economy's pump." Zandi further explained: "People who receive these benefits are very hard-pressed and will spend any financial aid they receive within a few weeks. These programs are also already operating, and a benefit increase can be quickly delivered to recipients." Zandi included with his testimony a table stating that a "Temporary Increase in Food Stamps" had the highest "Fiscal Economic Bank for the Buck" of any other potential stimulus provision he analyzed, providing a $1.73 increase in real GDP for every dollar spent.

Conservatives opposed the stimulus

Since its passage, right-wing media have falsely claimed the package failed. Right-wing media figures and outlets frequently promote the false claims that the stimulus "didn't work" and "has not created jobs."

Conservatives opposed stimulus at the time of passage. Before and during passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) on February 13, 2009, right-wing media figures expressed opposition the bill, by, among other things, falsely claiming that billions would go to ACORN, inflating the job creation costs, misrepresenting CBO estimates, falsely comparing it to previous unsuccessful Japanese economic policies, falsely claiming that stimulus money would go to undocumented workers, falsely claiming corporate tax rate cuts would be more effective than the stimulus, and claiming the recession would end on its own.  

Economists say the stimulus supported recovery

Economists say the stimulus helped economic recovery. Most fiscal analysts and economists agree that the stimulus has boosted GDP and reduced unemployment. For example, a report released in August by CBO estimated that the stimulus lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.7 and 1.8 percentage points, and the Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) stated that "the ARRA has raised the level of GDP as of the second quarter of 2010, relative to what it otherwise would have been, by between 2.7 and 3.2 percent." Additionally, multiple surveys of economists have found that a majority believe that the stimulus has helped.

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    • Author by nerzog (September 08, 2010 9:16 am ET)
      24 4
      Why would they? Their chances of winning in November are inversely related to the health of the economy.

      They don't give a rat's ass about the middle class or the working poor. Actually, they don't give a rat's ass about anyone in the lower 98%.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by draftedin68 (September 08, 2010 2:45 pm ET)
        16 1
        ...or any other part of the rat

        I watch and listen to a variety of news sources and so far, Rachel Maddow is the only I've heard who's pointed out the cricket-chirping silence from the Corporate Controlled Media about the blatant hypocrisy from the lapel-flagged legions of the right.

        These men and women are doing more to harm America than all the crazies in the world combined. They have put political ends above service to country and if Michele Bachmann wants to root out the anti-American elements in Congress, all she need do is look around on her side of the aisle at the next joint session.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by nerzog (September 08, 2010 5:17 pm ET)
          21 2
          Rachel Maddow is a national treasure.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by jaguarundi (September 09, 2010 7:12 pm ET)
          3  
          I used to wonder how the right-wingers and their media could commit so many logic flaws and outright lies and STILL retain the support (nay fervent belief) of their followers. I witnessed trolls like Seahawks123, RightON, Floyd and dozens more get completely destroyed on their arguments only to reiterate the same stupid points in the next thread.

          It is because they fundamentally think differently!

          Read The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer (available on the web) which explains how Evangelicals and these right wingers think and why it is practically pointless to engage in any logical arguments with them - unless you are doing it to shamelessly punish and humiliate them :-)
          It will help you understand how these uber-Christians can commit such anti-Christian acts and incredibly feel zero guilt. How they can argue for their freedoms while depriving everyone else. How they can witness millions starving and simultaneously pour trillions to the billionaires. How to rewrite history as your new philosophy requires - and fully believe it all. It's frigging incredible how pliable a mind can be.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (September 09, 2010 10:53 am ET)
        3  
        They've been rooting for economic failure for two years now, and doing everything in there power to keep the Democrats from being able to get anything done! They're un-American SCUM. And yet this country is full of morons who will blame the DEMOCRATS for the current economic condition, and give power back to the party that CAUSED it and the party that has PERPETUATED it! It's utterly insane.

        ---------------------------------------------------
        I defy any Conservtaive to name even a single thing the Democrats have done that has contributed to our CURRENT economic woes.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by wookie (September 08, 2010 10:03 am ET)
      11  
      Infrastructure? Who needs that? It's not like you can line the Walmart shelves with it. Of course our banking overlords might be able to make some money off of "bridge collapse swaps".
      Report Abuse
    • Author by New Frontier (September 08, 2010 10:30 am ET)
      12 1
      Rush Limbaugh leads---"I want the President to fail"---and the Republican Party follows.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 1:26 pm ET)
      6 23
      Oh I get it! The more money the government spends the better for everyone, LOADS and LOAD of debt is GOOD! What a bunch of bullcrap. TARP (Bush) was a waste of money, Stimulus (Obama) didnt work and now he wants to double down. GREAT! What exactly is the fiscal plan? Folks, when you fall on tough times, what do you do to get out of it. #1 - Tighten the belt and CUT EXPENSES! #2 - If possible, find more revenue (another job). In the governments case, that would be taxes and there is plenty to debate on the best method to increase revenue.

      Hey Govt. - Get out of the way, stop the bailouts, stop funding unsustainable union promises, stop getting bigger and bigger and let the economy sort itself out!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by peace4all (September 08, 2010 1:52 pm ET)
        19 4
        uhm...maybe you were asleep for the last 10 years. the mess we are in now is BECAUSE of republican policy. maybe you guys should just get out of the way and let us fix the mess you made and stop trying to get back in power just to be in power. the right has shown clearly that they have no plan and no skill to run this country. it's to bad that so many sheeple fall for the lies. tax cuts don't work, otherwise we would have had the largest economic expansion under good 'ol G.W. instead of the collapse that it spawned.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 2:02 pm ET)
          4 23
          Maybe YOU dont get it. It looks like 68% of Americans are starting to get it!

          http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/america_s_best_days
          Report Abuse
          • Author by peace4all (September 08, 2010 2:11 pm ET)
            18 3
            yes, i know..68% of this country is stupid enough to believe the lies that are spread by the right. that's the trouble with americans. they are by and large a generous and trusting people who think the best of others. and you guys take advantage of that and spread your lies. just because you can con the people does not mean your not evil d1ckheads.
            and on a side note, rasmussen, really? they are so far out of the mainstream they are not taken seriously by anyone but right wing nutjobs.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 2:08 pm ET)
          4 19
          peace - "you guys should get out of the way". Obama has an overwhelming Democratic majority in the house and senate. We are out of the way. He doesnt need ONE Republican vote. He cant even keep Democrats on board at this point!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by peace4all (September 08, 2010 2:14 pm ET)
            16 1
            no, all they need is one democrat more interested in appeasing the right than doing whats right (ben nelson comes to mind) and if you guys would get out of the way with procedure hurdles and filibusters then a whole lot more of good would have gotten done in the last 2 years with a majority. but i forget you guys suck at math to as a majority to you guys is 60% not 50%
            Report Abuse
            • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 2:24 pm ET)
              2 15
              hey Pease - At what point do you say "you know what, all of this government spending didnt work (unemployment now at 9.6%) and it isnt sustainable. Would that be the next time Obama asks for BILLIONS to re-stimulate, perhaps in the spring, or the time after that or Stimulus #3, #4, #5? With all of the jobs bills, bailouts and stimulus packages and unemployment not going down, at what point will you scratch your head and say "darn, that didnt work?". Oh yeah, that would be never. Then after we are tens of trillions of dollars in debt, we'll have to clean up YOUR mess which will be 2-3 times bigger than the mess that the RINO Bush gave us!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by peace4all (September 08, 2010 2:34 pm ET)
                11 3
                then stop obstructing and let us do what needs to be done. you got to spend trillions on killing people and making your rich master richer. let us help the rest of America. the stimulus was too small to help according to leading economists but your side had to demonize everything obama and that actually made thing worse because obama thought that you guys could be worked with. on that he was totally wrong. you guys are not interested in being helpful.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 2:54 pm ET)
                  2 17
                  Your side is interested in enslaving Americans to government money for votes (on an even larger scale than Bush was). I am interested in a balanced economy where the "evil rich people" (of which I am not) will invest money and thus employ the middle class in jobs that are better paying and with better benefits than the retail sector. An economic recovery will come when Americans start building/manufacturing things. What is your plan? Is it to force "evil rich people" to invest or is it to takeover the manufacturing sector of the economy and then fund it through bailout after bailout? We wont be saved by shopping at the mall.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:17 pm ET)
                    13 2
                    We wont be saved by shopping at the mall.


                    Actually that is exactly how we will be "saved." Consumer spending is what fuels the economy.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:22 pm ET)
                    10  
                    So you are saying people are willing to be enslaved so they would vote for the dems? Talk about illogical thinking.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:37 pm ET)
                      3 14
                      I think what he is saying is that historically Democrats have used the warm confines of a generous and philanthropic government to appeal to voters.

                      It's not that illogical.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:43 pm ET)
                        11 1
                        But does it enslave people? No it doesn't so it is illogical.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 3:44 pm ET)
                        2 13
                        Pretty much! What is so illogical Dave? You dont think that people who have been forced onto Govt. assistance will vote for the party that they think is the most "generous and philanthropic" as rightON said.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:48 pm ET)
                          12 1
                          That doesn't enslave them. Does the federal government force them to work in fields picking cotton? sell them to other countries for money? force them to mate with someone that it chose for them? NO, it doesn't.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 3:50 pm ET)
                            1 10
                            Dave, have you ever "engaged in hyperbole"? LOL!

                            Just answer the question...dont think that people who have been forced onto Govt. assistance will vote for the party that they think is the most "generous and philanthropic"?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:52 pm ET)
                              9 1
                              Answer this question, who "forces" people onto govt. assitance? Does someone show up at their door with a welfare check in one hand and a gun in the other?
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:58 pm ET)
                                1 13
                                When you create an environment to foster dependence on government and its services, you don't force them, but you make it far more attractive.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 4:04 pm ET)
                                  12  
                                  I call B.S. on that one. Most people that have used govt. assistance know that it is NOT an attractive option. Most people would rather have a steady job making money and contributing to society.
                                  Report Abuse
                              • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 4:01 pm ET)
                                  16
                                Come on Dave, wake up! I guess I have to ask if you even know what hyperbole is? "Forced onto Govt assistance" as in you lost your job and you have a family to feed and you cant find another job to accomplish that task so you take govt. assistance. Now, if you were on govt. assistance isnt it LOGICAL that you would vote for the party that is more "generous and philanthropic"?
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 4:05 pm ET)
                                  12  
                                  Are you suggesting that Dems are more generous to get votes? But republCONS are against being generous to lose votes?
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by peace4all (September 08, 2010 4:44 pm ET)
                                  11 1
                                  Forced onto Govt assistance" as in you lost your job and you have a family to feed and you cant find another.

                                  so you are "forced" onto gov assistance by the private sector who will lay you off then pay the ceo an obscene amount of money for saving the company money. sounds to me like it's the private sector shirking their public responsibility and dumping it's discarded workers onto the gov dole.
                                  maybe we should hike the corporate tax to make up for their shoddy business models.

                                  and btw, i have never gotten a job from the rich. i ahve always worked for a middle class small business owner. the rich do nothing for society as a whole as far as i can tell.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 5:01 pm ET)
                                    1 13
                                    Oh my God! Peace - get a clue. If you want me to phrase it so that you can understand it...here.

                                    The evil American private company laid off poor Joe because in a poor economy they didnt they didnt have enough work for Joe and couldnt make a profit (gasp!).

                                    Also, layoffs come from everywhere ding dong, even small companies owned by the middle class.

                                    The rich (of which I am not) do alot more than you'll give them credit for. Example - a Maine based yacht building company was "forced" to layoff 1/3 of its workers because CLIENTS ARENT BUYING YACHTS! Those were real jobs for real Mainer's thanks to who you'd call the filthy evil rich people. But whatever, you stick to the anarchist/socialist redistribution rhetoric crap. Blah, blah blah
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 5:08 pm ET)
                                      8  
                                      So let me ask you this. During times of a poor economy and people lose their jobs, who should they turn to to help them make ends meet until the economy improves and they find a job?
                                      Report Abuse
                                  • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 5:01 pm ET)
                                      12
                                    Oh my God! Peace - get a clue. If you want me to phrase it so that you can understand it...here.

                                    The evil American private company laid off poor Joe because in a poor economy they didnt they didnt have enough work for Joe and couldnt make a profit (gasp!).

                                    Also, layoffs come from everywhere ding dong, even small companies owned by the middle class.

                                    The rich (of which I am not) do alot more than you'll give them credit for. Example - a Maine based yacht building company was "forced" to layoff 1/3 of its workers because CLIENTS ARENT BUYING YACHTS! Those were real jobs for real Mainer's thanks to who you'd call the filthy evil rich people. But whatever, you stick to the anarchist/socialist redistribution rhetoric crap. Blah, blah blah
                                    Report Abuse
                                • Author by ajzito (September 08, 2010 11:35 pm ET)
                                  8  
                                  It IS more logical, as in, "Why would I vote for politicians who don't give a damn what will happen to me or my family when there is a deep recession in which I might become unavoidably unemployed." But it is not because liberal government is "generous". I was on unemployment compensation once when I was in my twenties and believe me, there is nothing generous about it. It helps to cushion the blow and put a floor under the retail economy. With GOP Inc., you can fall all the hell and they'd stop watching after the first ten feet. It is not about "generosity", it is about avoiding disaster.

                                  In the meantime, MaineiacMan thinks running a country is like managing a household. The US has to borrow money for the same reason that a business in need of capital does. Of course, that business could just lie down and die, but I'm pretty much against the US doing that. If we don't borrow now to kick start this thing, we are dead, plain and simple. You had better PRAY that Keynes was right, because otherwise, we got nothin', bub.
                                  Report Abuse
                      • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:39 pm ET)
                        7  
                        "I think what he is saying is that historically Democrats have used the warm confines of a generous and philanthropic government to appeal to voters.
                        "

                        And that's exactly as it should be. It's our government. Of, by and for the people. It's not the fault of Democrats that Republicans don't understand what it means to be an American.
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:39 pm ET)
                        8  
                        "I think what he is saying is that historically Democrats have used the warm confines of a generous and philanthropic government to appeal to voters.
                        "

                        And that's exactly as it should be. It's our government. Of, by and for the people. It's not the fault of Democrats that Republicans don't understand what it means to be an American.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:46 pm ET)
                          1 13
                          So you're for political parties using government services and dependence to entice voters and appeal for votes?

                          W.
                          O.
                          W.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 5:49 pm ET)
                            6  
                            So you're for political parties using government services and dependence to entice voters and appeal for votes?
                            ..not dependence but government services, of course. That's politics 101.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 6:12 pm ET)
                            9  
                            I am for political parties willing to help the citizens of this country when they are having tough times.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:15 pm ET)
                                12
                              So whoever doles out the most carrots should be in power? Great!
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 6:31 pm ET)
                                7 1
                                Yes, whichever party is BEST for the USA, overall, SHOULD be in power.

                                It's pretty simple.

                                And the only way that the Republicans retain some power is by LYING about what they'll do for the USA and LIE about their efforts and LIE about their solutions. They have to be disingenuous and deceptive and omit relevant data to fool people in order to survive, and so they do that.

                                And so do you, and so, when the topic is how poorly the rightwing media behaves, YOU can't acknowledge it, and have to distract us with these off-topic rants.
                                Report Abuse
                              • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 6:34 pm ET)
                                7  
                                No, whomever takes care of the citizens of this country the best should be in power.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:49 pm ET)
                                    9
                                  Spoken like tried and true dependents on government. Good job!
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 7:07 pm ET)
                                    6  
                                    Spoken like tried and true dependents on government.
                                    Who are you dependent on? What employer allows you to spend countless hours on this site?
                                    Report Abuse
                          • Author by albertsenj (September 10, 2010 1:22 am ET)
                               
                            So you are for a political party that advocates gutting the services typically provided by government, privatizing them and then accepting contributions from the companies who want those contracts??
                            Report Abuse
                      • Author by CoolSlaw (September 09, 2010 1:59 pm ET)
                        5  
                        A social safety net is not just warm and fuzziness or a vote enticement. it's one of the great strides forward in the 20th century.

                        It really brings "we the people" closer to forming a more "perfect union" when we use our great blessing and resources to protect the least of our brothers and sisters in times of need.

                        I always find it ironic and sad that the party who wear their Christianity on their sleeve are the first to condemn social spending for the poor, elderly and disabled.

                        You rarely hear tax cuts framed as a vote buying device, and yet why not? Why is the politics of selfishness always regarded as virtuous, while the politics of compassion are condemned?
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (September 08, 2010 4:47 pm ET)
                    10  
                    You want to know why do we don't have manufacturing jobs here? Our own companies abandoned us to become richer. We can appease them all they want, but in the end we'll be on a race to the bottom to kiss the a$$es for nothing.

                    China has the most manufacturing jobs because people work in sweatshops earning cents a day, building crappy and unsafe goods all the while turning their environment into an uninhabitable wasteland. The only way that the companies will come back is if we choose money over human rights like China has done.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:35 pm ET)
                    10  
                    "I am interested in a balanced economy where the "evil rich people" (of which I am not) will invest money and thus employ the middle class in jobs that are better paying and with better benefits than the retail sector. An economic recovery will come when Americans start building/manufacturing things. What is your plan? Is it to force "evil rich people" to invest or is it to takeover the manufacturing sector of the economy and then fund it through bailout after bailout?"

                    Without a strong unionized middle class, you live in a fairy tail world. Also, who do you think sent those manufacturing jobs overseas if not the evil rich people? They did it for greater personal wealth, they don't give a crap a bout the middle class. Moreover, corporations have over a trillion dollars in profits just sitting around and they aren't doing jack with it in terms of job creation. All that money might as well be at the bottom of the sea for as much good as it's doing us.

                    Government has to help. It's our government and it needs to be on our side. Now I think it is absolutely right and proper of our government to ween corporations from the tax break teet if they cut American jobs and send them overseas. Screw em, they lose their privileges of being an American company if they forsake their own country.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 2:56 pm ET)
                    13
                  Pease - I'll take that non-answer as "never".
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:26 pm ET)
                  7 1
                  "then stop obstructing and let us do what needs to be done. you got to spend trillions on killing people and making your rich master richer. let us help the rest of America."

                  While it's true that Republicans are useless obstructionists, your comment is just a testament to how weak our Democrats have been.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 3:00 pm ET)
                5 3
                Duh.

                Saying that unemployment is at level X, without acknowledging where it would be WITHOUT the stimulus, is ignorance.

                Failing to understand how bad the economy would be without the gov't intervention is ignorance squared.

                Having no basic grasp of how, during an economic downturn when interest rates are already low, the ONLY option to help the economy is gov't spending, and that it's absolutely necessary, is ignorance quadrupled.

                3 strikes and you're out, doofus.

                Please don't continue to feed this troll. He's not actually interested in participating in a fair and reasonable debate given the comments he's already made that deny the undeniable and ignore reality.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:11 pm ET)
                  3 11
                  "3 strikes and you're out, doofus"

                  How ironic, you reply 3 times and then you admonish all others to stop feeding the "troll", after you get your 3 strikes in.

                  You are the biggest phony imaginable. Live by your own stupid scoldings you hypocrite. LOL
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 3:41 pm ET)
                  1 12
                  Dully - Saying that you need to spend billions upon billions and stimulus upon stimulus to save jobs IS NOT SUSTAINABLE! Lets say Obama keeps coming back for more bailouts and more stimulus packages because the economy doesnt recover, at what point would you say "wow, this doesnt work"? When the national debt is what? 20T? 30T? 40T? Let me guess....never.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:44 pm ET)
                    1 9
                    You just increase taxes, your public position is the "rich", but it will be for everyone. Move more money from the private sector into the hands of the more fiscally responsible bureaucrats in government.

                    That's her answer.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:46 pm ET)
                    8 1
                    Our country has had a national debt, except for a very brief period under Jackson, its entire existance. Why all of a sudden is that debt not sustainable? Obama inherited almost $12 trillion in debt, why all of a sudden its not sustainable? Are you suggesting that the President not do anything to try and stimulate the economy?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:50 pm ET)
                      1 10
                      I think Obama did what he had to do. But we can't just keep spending and spending government money because that cannot sustain itself.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 3:53 pm ET)
                        8 1
                        It has sustained itself for 234 years, why all of a sudden it is not sustainable?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 4:00 pm ET)
                          1 9
                          Because government cannot sustain itself as it consumes and redistributes wealth, it does not produce it.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 4:03 pm ET)
                            1 9
                            Cha-ching!
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by raddave43 (September 08, 2010 4:07 pm ET)
                            8  
                            tell that to the defense contractors who have made billions from the government.
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by rumpleteasermom (September 08, 2010 7:09 pm ET)
                            5  
                            Because government cannot sustain itself as it consumes and redistributes wealth, it does not produce it.


                            Agreed. Now look at the economic history of the last 10 or 20 years and tell me which direction the wealth is being redistributed.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by CoolSlaw (September 09, 2010 2:04 pm ET)
                              3  
                              Yes, bingo.

                              These "conservatives" are being taken for fools and defending policy that goes against the best interests of themselves and the country.

                              They've got blinders on the size of a foreclosed house, and their happy to see the middle class shrink and poor get poorer as long as the mantras that have been drilled into their heads keep getting repeated.
                              Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (September 08, 2010 4:49 pm ET)
                    7  
                    And why were those bailouts necessary? If we had let those companies fall, they would have dragged everyone with them and now when we are trying to actually do something to prevent it from ever happening again (way overdue financial reform), we just hear screams, moans and complaints.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 2:56 pm ET)
            8 1
            Actually, no, he doesn't have an "overwhelming majority" in Congress, doofus.

            If you don't know this, you're too ill-educated to even participate in ANY discussion on this topic.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by rumpleteasermom (September 08, 2010 7:05 pm ET)
            5  
            Um, y'all do know the make up of the senate and how many votes it takes to break a filibuster right?
            Report Abuse
      • Author by The New Pilgrims (September 08, 2010 1:54 pm ET)
        10 1
        MaineiacMan isn't an economist. But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by wookie (September 08, 2010 1:58 pm ET)
        11  
        Yep, if everyone tightens their belt and refuses to spend that economy will be zipping in no time. And like all activities it magically works without any rules.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 2:54 pm ET)
        5 2
        Again, doofus?

        When will you get the message that there's a cost and a benefit to virtually EVERYTHING we do?

        So, no one has said that unlimited gov't spending is better than limited gov't spending - that's YOUR strawman argument.

        But you're wrong when you say that the gov't spending by Bush and Obama wasn't successful - you can't support that assertion in any way.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by CoolSlaw (September 09, 2010 2:10 pm ET)
          2  
          It takes a few posts, but eventually the trend becomes clear. The strawman and false choice the conservative media drones are attacking is either no stimulus spending(by Democrats only, it's okay if their side does it) or infinite stimulus spending with no restraints.

          It really is difficult to win over the minds of people who aren't even capable of understand the real issues at hand or defining anything outside of the most simply stated black and white terms.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 2:14 pm ET)
              2
            You mean like when we ask for fiscal restraint and accountability in government expenditures and that we are sick of taxes being raised and wasted, that that means we want NO taxes and that means we want no fire or police department?

            You mean like defining that outside of the most simply stated black and white terms?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by CoolSlaw (September 10, 2010 3:16 am ET)
              2  
              I don't see specific policy addressed this way by liberals and democrats. I do see and hear some hyperbole like you are describing as general statements on philosophy. Make no mistake about it though, there are quite a few libertarian utopianists who really do want to cut all taxes and government spending. I've heard some of them on various radio programs both left and right. The Ayn Rand and Cato institutes have some very vocal proponents of this for example.

              Now when talking about stimulus and government spending I see two noteworthy trends:

              1) When republicans are running the country as a majority, the spending and deficit hawks suddenly become very quiet.

              2) When specific spending policy is discussed, you don't hear liberals and democrats framing the debate in black and white all or nothing terms. More often you'll hear them talk boring numbers and stats and facts.

              When a liberal talks about republicans wanting to privatize and get rid of social security for example, it's because they are responding to direct quotes form politicians who say that is exactly what they want to do!

              It's only a strawman who wants to spend infinite amounts of tax revenue on stimulus and make us into a socialist country. You're false equivalence is exactly that, false.


              Report Abuse
      • Author by coldteablues19577325 (September 08, 2010 6:05 pm ET)
        6  
        "Stimulus (Obama) didnt work and now he wants to double down." --MaineiacMan

        It took us how long to get where we are today? You expect us to get out of it how quickly?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by davemccarthymusic9410 (September 08, 2010 11:03 pm ET)
        5  
        "Stimulus (Obama) didnt work and now he wants to double down."

        yeah, well according to people who actually know WTF they're talking about the stumulus has been a success, but it was too small. Thus the double down, as in if it's good, more of it will hopefully be better.

        HOWEVER, as the above posts show, the right wing doesn't want the economy to get better. This explains why they are such obstructionists every step of the way.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by little poncho (September 08, 2010 2:24 pm ET)
      7 2
      I think it's time for a smart young attorney to step forward and go after the right wing wachos'. remember AMERICA, our country belongs to all of us, the way it's looks the right wingers'''''' think they should have it their way, the only way..... tax breaks for the rich, and tough luck chuck, for the rest of AMERICA......
      Report Abuse
    • Author by kcboomer (September 08, 2010 2:54 pm ET)
      2 13
      It's ridiculous and downright idiotic to accuse the "right-wing media" of not wanting to stimulate the economy. Another stupid tactic to bad mouth people who are tying to expose the hidden agendas of irresponsible spending habits of this administration. Sure we all want to see everyone get a job and get a raise, but when those jobs or pay raises come with strings attached you have to waive the BS flag.
      - Infrasture spending plans that covertly are directed toward exclusively union jobs! (Executive Order 13502 and Project Labor Agreements)
      - A $50 billion infrastructure package ON TOP of the ~$230 billion allocated in the stimulous package, most of which hasn't been spent yet.
      - Energy taxes that have direct impact on businessess, employers, employees, and the consumer.
      - Health care mandates that directly affect businessess, employers, employees, and the consumer.
      Every time BHO is called out for the wreckless spending and taxing he proposes MMFA decides to villify those who are smart enough to see through his bull5h1+.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by draftedin68 (September 08, 2010 3:05 pm ET)
        6 2

        Your handle really, really sucks!

        Report Abuse
        • Author by kcboomer (September 08, 2010 3:25 pm ET)
          2 6
          And I really, [i]really[i] don't care what you think!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 4:13 pm ET)
            6 1
            Is your "really" between the twin towers? That's really cute. I remember ANSI art back in the pre-Internet days.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by kcboomer (September 08, 2010 4:40 pm ET)
              1 7
              Twin towers? No. It should have been italicized, but there was a computer glitch, which is also why the post was repeated.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 6:37 pm ET)
                3 2
                No, it was NOT a computer glitch.

                Putting a word between [i]word[i] will NEVER italicize it! YOU made an error in how you TRIED to do it, doofus. It wasn't a computer glitch. There has to be a signal to the word processing program to START the italicizing and a signal to END it also in order for it to work. You failed to do that.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:44 pm ET)
                  1 7
                  Oh you phony hypocrite. How many times have you tried to link to a website and failed? Do you want me to show you an example of you failing to do that right?

                  Is there no end to your fraudulent hypocrisy? I guess not.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by riverdog (September 08, 2010 6:54 pm ET)
                  1 1
                  dell, you can be very entertaining with your name calling and lecturing but come on lighten up a bit.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by EZ4you2say (September 09, 2010 1:35 pm ET)
                    1 3
                    Name calling is entertaining? Are you in 7th grade? DD can't leave a post without resorting to name calling. That's all she has.
                    Isn't that right, Sue?
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:27 pm ET)
              1 8
              Between the twin towers? Lol. I swear you really do have a monopoly on irrelevant and moronic contributions here.

              Pat yourself on the back, you deserve it.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by kcboomer (September 08, 2010 3:25 pm ET)
            8
          And I really, [i]really[i] don't care what you think!
          Report Abuse
      • Author by ajzito (September 09, 2010 12:31 am ET)
        5 1
        I'd like to see the spending plans overtly favoring exclusively union jobs. I like unions. Unions are what made the American middle class and the decline of unions is paralleling the decline of the middle class. Darned if I know why any worker wouldn't want to have some union power to balance his employer's power of wealth and ownership.

        The more infrastructure, the better. The country is physically in a state of decay; what, you wanna wait until Bank of America builds a highway? That only happens when the government takes their money and puts it to good use. My motto: roads and bridges before bonuses.

        Right. Energy taxes that have a positive impact on how we use energy. Good idea.

        Right. Health care mandates that affect everyone. About time.

        Darn, kcboomer, you understand Obama's program completely. You just have poor judgement about public policy.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by kcboomer (September 10, 2010 3:17 pm ET)
            1
          You must have money just overflowing from your pockets. Your obvious willingness to pay extra money for everything just because BHO and his cronies say so is evident.
          Union industries that force increased prices because of their demands are OK with you? Ever heard of the Big Dig in Boston? I guess you're good with the American auto industry being under the Union thumb and constant threat of walkouts and strikes demanding more and more. That really boosts the middle class doesn't it. With the EO that directs contracts be given specifically to unions, what does Barry have against those non-union workers? Don't they deserve a slice of the pie?Aren't they member of the middle class?
          Infrastruct spending is a good thing. The point is Barry is asking for $50B MORE, on top of the $230B he already got. I guess the unions just wanted more money so they can funnel more of the union dues to democratic fundraising.
          You want to pay more on your electric bill? Do you want business to go under because they can't afford extra tax liabilities because they don't meet some made up "green" initiative? You must love to pay extra for everything. After all, do you really think companies are going to just suck up the extra cost thats levied on them and not pass it on to the consumer?
          You must love to pay extra for health care as well, especially when your coverage could be cut, or your doctor could decide to just not accept you insurance any more. Maybe the medicine you need could be determined to cost too much and your insurance company will no longer cover it. After all, these things have already happened as a direct result of Obamas health care push. But hey, he spent a year working on a health care program the majority opposed, he was told would raise costs, limit care, all while a big chunk of Americans were out of work. He believed his health care agenda was more important than working on legislation to restore jobs.
          Yea, I understand Obamas program completely. That's why I refuse to let all the strings attached to his policies become a noose around Americas neck. Maybe that's were my public policy judgement differs from yours.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by grmce (September 08, 2010 3:20 pm ET)
      7  
      Apart from a near total lack of understanding of economic theory by Right Whinge commentators, they have a deep suspicion - bordering on antipathy - of the ordinary wage earners. Sadly there are many petit bourgeoisie who are so self loathing that they swallow this bollocks. They continually tug their forelock and defer to those they think to be their "betters".

      To all of these sad, angry people the whole of life is still to be learnt from some 19thC text on moral improvement through personal thrift and temperance. This all fails to comprehend the complex nature of an economy and the need to democratise spending power and keep real money (i.e. goods and services) circulating through the community.

      The Right Whinge approach is to basically shut down the economy by reducing spending. This is the economic equivalent of turning off the respirator - their very own economic "death panel".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:28 pm ET)
        1 12
        "To all of these sad, angry people the whole of life is still to be learnt from some 19thC text on moral improvement through personal thrift and temperance. This all fails to comprehend the complex nature of an economy and the need to democratise spending power"

        Your posts are full of such gibberish, as a rule, and this is no different. What the hell does that mean actually, that pile of gobbledygook above?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (September 08, 2010 3:48 pm ET)
            10
          LMAO!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by The New Pilgrims (September 08, 2010 4:22 pm ET)
            11  
            Ah, using the word "gobbledygook" while accusing someone else of unclear writing. Must be a follower of "Do as I say, not as I do."

            Of course you two don't understand that passage. Doing so would require some ability to comprehend the English language. Do'h!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 4:31 pm ET)
                9
              Are you going to explain it to me here, or below?

              I will check back. I am patient.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 4:47 pm ET)
                7  
                Are you going to explain it to me here, or below?
                You are important. Nobody should waste your time. It doesn't make one whit of difference if it's explained to you.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 4:17 pm ET)
          10  
          Your posts are full of such gibberish
          Translation: It's over poor little Tommy's head. Stop using such big words and sophisticated prose. The intelligent people on this board understand your point very clearly. Unfortunately if your target is conservatives, you should probably dumb it down a notch or two.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 4:21 pm ET)
              10
            Great! Then you can explain it? Since you understand it so clearly and all.

            I'll wait.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by The New Pilgrims (September 08, 2010 4:23 pm ET)
              9  
              You keep waiting there, buddy. Hold your breath while you're at it. We'll get RIGHT back to you with the answer, OK?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 4:30 pm ET)
                  10
                Cool! You understand it too then?

                I will wait. (tapping fingers)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 4:50 pm ET)
                  7  
                  Don't respond to him. He's a narcissist and gets off on people taking their time to carefully explain nuanced arguments that he simply dismisses off-hand.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 4:52 pm ET)
                  9
                Cool! You understand it too then?

                I will wait. (tapping fingers)
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 4:48 pm ET)
              6  
              Great! Then you can explain it? Since you understand it so clearly and all.
              We don't have to. You are not important. You are simply a nuisance.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 5:13 pm ET)
              6  
              Great! Then you can explain it? Since you understand it so clearly and all.
              We don't have to. You are not important. You are simply a nuisance.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by grmce (September 08, 2010 6:32 pm ET)
          7 1
          Dear Mr or Ms right On,

          If you are having trouble understanding what I write then I suggest that you sit down with a good dictionary and go through and check the meaning of each word in sequence.

          If you are still having trouble then I suggest that you find either an English as a second language teacher or, failing that, a year two or year 3 teacher for some one on one remedial tuition.

          Alternatively you could stop being a boofhead and deal with the substance of my posts.

          Fond regards, grmce
          Report Abuse
          • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:39 pm ET)
              9
            Now that is a kicker. Even you can't explain that jumbled up incoherent bowl of stew, you must have put it through a food processor before tossing it out here for consumption.

            I can hardly deal with your "substance" when it's like a ball of yarn after a cat fight.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:42 pm ET)
              7 1
              Even you can't explain that jumbled up incoherent bowl of stew, you must have put it through a food processor before tossing it out here for consumption.
              We don't have to explain anything to you. We're not your slaves. Education yourself and come back with some better reading comprehension. You are not important.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:46 pm ET)
                  8
                Listen Sweety, I am not foolish enough to ask you. You just don't know much. Never mind.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 7:44 pm ET)
                  5  
                  Listen Sweety, I am not foolish enough to ask you.
                  You did ask, out of ignorance. You can't take that back.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (September 09, 2010 2:34 pm ET)
                  2  
                  That's awesome! NewBee posts...

                  Translation: It's over poor little Tommy's head. Stop using such big words and sophisticated prose. The intelligent people on this board understand your point very clearly. Unfortunately if your target is conservatives, you should probably dumb it down a notch or two.


                  To which rightON replies...

                  Great! Then you can explain it? Since you understand it so clearly and all.

                  I'll wait.


                  Then right ON caps it off with...

                  Listen Sweety, I am not foolish enough to ask you.


                  RFLMAO - thanks rightON!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 2:39 pm ET)
                      2
                    You have every right to R on the F L your A O.

                    I was being foolish, no doubt about it.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 09, 2010 5:56 pm ET)
                      1  
                      I was being foolish, no doubt about it
                      Tommy thought I was one of the people on here who dance when he shoots at their feet. The answer to a narcissist is to dismiss them. O'Reilly, Coulter, Tommy/right ON, it's the same proscription.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by Old_Benjamin (September 09, 2010 2:54 pm ET)
                  1  
                  That's awesome! NewBee posts...

                  Translation: It's over poor little Tommy's head. Stop using such big words and sophisticated prose. The intelligent people on this board understand your point very clearly. Unfortunately if your target is conservatives, you should probably dumb it down a notch or two.


                  To which rightON replies...

                  Great! Then you can explain it? Since you understand it so clearly and all.

                  I'll wait.


                  Then right ON caps it off with...

                  Listen Sweety, I am not foolish enough to ask you.


                  RFLMAO - thanks rightON!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 3:09 pm ET)
                    1 2
                    I don't know why MMfA can't fix their server, it really sucks.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Old_Benjamin (September 09, 2010 3:16 pm ET)
                      3  
                      I don't know why MMfA can't fix their server, it really sucks.


                      They probably are concerned about future tax policy and aren't willing to invest during this time of great uncertainty. <end sarcasm>

                      As for the double (or more posts) I know - and I'm sure I didn't hit the "save" button more than once.
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by grmce (September 08, 2010 7:14 pm ET)
              4  
              Merely paraphrasing plain English cannot make up for any genuine deficit you may have in basic comprehension.

              Unfortunately I am not in a position to personally give you the requisite remedial reading classes - assuming that you are not just being deliberately obtuse, or, heaven forfend, playing the ass (and I don't mean arse).

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 7:45 pm ET)
                6  
                assuming that you are not just being deliberately obtuse, or, heaven forfend, playing the ass (and I don't mean arse).
                Yes to both. That's his modus operandi.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 11:34 am ET)
                  3
                It's just as I thought. Elite liberals who jumble their words and meanings into incoherent piles of confusion because they really don't want to reveal exactly what they mean, I have said that around here for a long time. So you doublespeak and backflip with $4 words to avoid just laying it out, because it won't sell.

                Just more proof of that. So instead you just say well you don't understand the nuance of it. LOL! I have been around wordsmith liberals for years, this is nothing new. Too bad none of your liberal friends wanted to touch it either.

                Very telling.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 09, 2010 5:59 pm ET)
                  1  
                  It's just as I thought. Elite liberals who jumble their words and meanings into incoherent piles of confusion because they really don't want to reveal exactly what they mean, I have said that around here for a long time.
                  Translation: Elite = smarter than Tommy/right ON. In other words about 75% of the population.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by grmce (September 09, 2010 9:38 pm ET)
                  2  
                  So you doublespeak and backflip with $4 words to avoid just laying it out, because it won't sell.
                  Considering that I gained most of my vocabulary as a child at the kitchen table during the evening meal, I would suggest that none of my words could have cost as much as $4. Maybe you have trouble comprehending anything beyond a simple sentence.

                  Your seeming resentment of the fact that I was brought up in a family that loved learning and prized language says more about your self perception (or possibly your perception of your target audience).

                  By the way, as a disabled pensioner I am hardly one of any elite. As for being a liberal I am most certainly not, as any of my friends would testify. Your convenient stereotype assumptions are wildly erroneous and betray a certain prejudice on your part.
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 6:41 pm ET)
            8 1
            But see, he can't deal with the substance of your posts. That's the whole problem. He can't deal with the substance of any thoughtful post, because the rightwing can't deal with the substance of ANY thoughtfulness, because then they'd lose. Their political philosophy fails on virtually every topic. And their leaders know it.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:44 pm ET)
              7 1
              And their leaders know it.
              Tommy is not a leader of anything. Don't feed his narcissism by lumping him in with people who are actually important.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:47 pm ET)
                  8
                You are so obsessed with "invalidating" me on an anonymous website, aren't you?

                Why?

                Never mind, we both know why.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 7:05 pm ET)
                  7  
                  You are so obsessed with "invalidating" me on an anonymous website, aren't you?
                  Tommy. I don't like charlatans. You are one. Not only are you sockpuppeting and refuse to admit it, you are manipulating the more patient of the posters on here for your own narcissistic aims. It's pathetic. You are worse than someone like seahawks because you pretend to be reasonable just enough times to reel people in. Instead of just dismissing you, as you deserve, they attempt to change your mind with exquisite logic. The more they try, the more dismissive you get regardless of the facts presented. That's your schtick. It's pathetic and deserves to be called out whenever possible.
                  Report Abuse
    • Author by voltaire (September 08, 2010 5:47 pm ET)
      11 1
      Attention people of planet Earth: Why are you wasting your time with the right-wing littlebrains who troll these sites (or those in political office or the media). It doesn't matter what is said or shown to them. It is apparent that an improvement in the economy will work to the benefit of Obama and the Democrats, which is why Republicans will oppose any measure, even those that they have supported in the past. This is why they speak out against the stimulus, even when many Republican officials will go to ribbon-cutting ceremonies in their district for projects (and jobs) made possible by the stimulus. This is why they won't admit that the Bush tax cuts they love so much are in fact another deficit-increasing economic stimulus; it's just one that favors those who are suffering less in this economy and who will spend less (and save more) of the stimulus. This is why they all of a sudden found religion on the deficits, but said nothing during the eight years of the Bush administration, which was handed a surplus. This is also why we hear a lot of silly talk about enslavement and loss of freedom when the government does it job to help the economy and the people suffering from the recession. Dear government, please enslave me more and invest in our infrastructure. Dear government, please take away my freedom by helping those in need during these tough times. Dear government, please take the liberty away of those going through bankruptcy because of medical bills or those afraid to leave a job to pursue an entrepeneurial dream by providing adequate health care to all. Dear government, please destroy my independence by regulating Wall Street and other industries that raped our economy following deregulation.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by coldteablues19577325 (September 08, 2010 6:01 pm ET)
      7  
      "They certainly larded the first stimulus bill with plenty of home-town pork," --from the article

      But look at a list of Republican governors who were against the stimulus package but more than happy to stick their hands out for the pork.

      Oink!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by HotWings (September 08, 2010 8:48 pm ET)
        8
      They are not against stimulating the economy. They are against the government's out of control spending.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (September 09, 2010 2:16 am ET)
        5 1
        They are not against stimulating the economy. They are against the government's out of control spending.

        Really?

        When President George W. Bush entered the White House in January 2001, the federal government had total revenues of slightly more than $2.03 trillion and expenditures of $1.79 trillion, leaving a budget surplus of slightly less than $240 billion.

        When the Clinton Administration left the White House, federal spending was 18.4% of GDP. In 2008, at the close of the Bush Administration, federal expenditures was 20.5% pf GDP, for an 11.4% INCREASE over the last 8 years.

        At the end of the Bush Administrations 2 wars, defense spending had risen 61% in constant dollars.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, welfare state spending had increased by 32% in constant dollars.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, Medical Care expenditures by the federal government (which includes Medicare, Medicaid, hospital and medical care for veterans, substance abuse and mental health services) had gone up 54% in constant dollars.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, food and nutrition (which includes food stamps, child nutrition, and special milk programs, supplemental food programs) had increased 43% since 2000.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, Social Security and related payments had risen 19%.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, public assistance (which includes family support payments to states, low income home energy assistance, earned income tax credits, legal services, payments to states for daycare assistance, payment to states for foster care/adoption assistance, and other related services) had increased by 17%.

        At the end of the Bush Administration, housing assistance had gone up by 12%

        At the end of the Bush Administration federal student loans and related programs had increased by 129%.
        Big Government Under the Bush Administration...

        As of December 2008, President George W. Bush had ONLY vetoed 12 bills since taking office in January 2001. ONLY ONE PRESIDENTIAL VETO OCCURRED BEFORE DEMOCRATS TOOK CONTROL OF CONGRESS IN JANUARY 2007. THIS IS THE FEWEST PRESIDENTIAL VETOES OF ANY MODERN PRESIDENT.Vetoes by President George W. Bush...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 6:32 am ET)
            7
          Hey Pearl,

          Psst - Bush sucked. He was NOT a conservative. He WAS a BIG government guy. In fact, if it werent for the wars, I'd have thought that you progressives would have loved him! Afterall just look at your own bullet points.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by The New Pilgrims (September 09, 2010 10:49 am ET)
            5  
            That's pretty funny. Because in "real time" there were very, very few conservatives saying "Bush sucked" and "he is NOT a conservative." Those that did were soundly castigated by those who continued to support Bush.

            If you were one of the conservatives who in real time actually said "Bush sucked" and "he is NOT a conservative" ... my hat's off to you. Although, it would help your credibility if you would provide some evidence of your real-time "Bush sucks" criticisms. While I'm not from Missouri, I'll believe it when I see it.

            And regarding your assertion that "if it weren't for the wars, I'd have thought that you progressives would have loved" Bush -- I'll just offer two points in rebuttal:

            1) Any attempt to separate the Bush44 presidency from "the wars" would be like trying to separate OJ Simpson's credibility from "the murder of Nicole." As in, "If it weren't for the apparent fact that he abused and then murdered his wife, and her lover, OJ Simpson is a pretty decent human being."

            2) In addition to racking up deficits like a drunken sailor, the Bush Administration also took a big ole dump on America's reputation around the world by misleading the country into the Iraq War and by authorizing the unlawful torture of detainees (authorizing practices that our grandfathers prosecuted the Nazis for), which also had the effect of taking a big ole dump on something called the US Consitution, but I know that only really matters if the President is a Democrat. Oh, the Bush Administration also took a big ole dump on the environment, put incompetent cronies in charge of numerous federal agencies, and ordered federal prosecutors to gin up frivolous legal cases against political opponents for purely partisan reasons. But you're right, all that is window dressing -- if you just take out the wars and all these other trivial frivolities, George W. Bush was the most awesomest, misunderestimated President in the history of the entire universe and really needs to be enshrined with his own floating statute above Mount Rushmore. It would have to be a floating terd, but I digress.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 11:28 am ET)
                5
              I think it is pretty clear that Bush is not a conservative, unless your definition of conservatism is exponentially growing the government. I didnt like him doing it and I dont like Obama doing it either. Thats OK, stick to your party loyalties. I get it. Anything a Democratic President does is good. Anything a Republican President does is bad. It makes it pretty funny when the roles flip flop and the unprincipled commenters on here flip right along with thier party's actions.

              I'm sure that in your party warfare world Bush was accused of "buying votes" when he came up with the Medicare perscription drug suppliment, but Obama is not accused of the same thing with "Obamacare". I'm sure that in your world, Bush was doing favors for "big business" with his bailout/stimulus, but Obama was "saving jobs" with his.

              In my view they all sucked, no matter which party did it.

              Have some integrity. Have some consistency.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Disputed Zone (September 09, 2010 11:46 am ET)
                6  
                So Reagan wasn't a conservative. Neither is Dick Cheney. And the most conservative administration in recent history was Clinton's. The natural party for conservatives is the Democratic Party.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 12:13 pm ET)
                    4
                  Actually Craig, I am really starting to miss the Clinton years. Obama is no Clinton. Certainly the Democratic Party WAS more conservative than it is now. You last sentence either has a typo or is a joke because the Dem party is FAR from conservative now.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Disputed Zone (September 09, 2010 12:33 pm ET)
                    5  
                    Obama has pledged to cut the deficit and restore financial order. He may be overly optimistic and will surely face strong opposition, but he is going to give it a go.

                    We know the Republicans don't care about such things, except rhetorically, near election time, when they are out of power.

                    Just to be clear, for the sake of integrity and consistency: Reagan and Cheney - not conservatives?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 1:21 pm ET)
                        4
                      I didnt mean to duck you Craig,

                      I would say that given my definition of conservatism, they were not the most fiscally conservatives in office over the last 40 years. I'd rank fiscal conservatives in that time frame s being
                      1 - Clinton (the ultimate "triangulator")
                      2 - Reagan (big money on beating USSR in cold war)
                      3 - Cheney (why did you include him, he was VP?)

                      In terms of socially conservative as far as I can remember, Reagan would top that one.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Disputed Zone (September 10, 2010 11:43 am ET)
                        1  
                        I don't know if you're still following this thread, MM, but I had a few thoughts.

                        I'm fascinated by the transformation of conservative opinion on Bush. He was seen not just as s conservative, but as a conservative hero until about 2006, when the tide turned. Now some conservatives even call him a liberal.

                        Of course, he's no more a liberal than is Reagan, the conservative hero, or Cheney, who I included because he is still highly regarded in some conservative circles and he famously said that deficits don't matter.

                        I'm sure Bush would love to have the pass on spending you gave Reagan. He'd say his spending was just as important. Bush would give Reagan a run for his money on the social conservative list, too.

                        Sometimes it's fiscally responsible to spend money. First-rate infrastructure allows economies to thrive, good education creates a productive workforce, and research leads to innovation, all of which enhance competiveness in the world market. These are sounder investments than more militarization.

                        I probably agree with you on triangulation. It's not leadership. But it is infinitely preferable to the Rovian politics of division practiced by Republicans.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Disputed Zone (September 10, 2010 11:52 am ET)
                          1  
                          Let me add that, in a recession, there are additional benefits to government investment, like putting people to work and stimulating the economy.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by MaineiacMan (September 10, 2010 1:58 pm ET)
                              1
                            I guess that there are two facets to being a conservative, in my view. Bush was socially conservative but HE WAS NOT fiscally conservative. Fiscal conservatism is much more important to me. I have not and cannot view Bush as a conservative because he was BIG government guy. Excluding the military, Reagan shrunk the role and size of government in our lives. I can forgive him for the military expansion as I credit him for winning the cold war and breaking the USSR.

                            I dont have a ton of time right now but wanted to respond. Thanks for the decent dialog.
                            Report Abuse
                  • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 12:41 pm ET)
                    1 4
                    MaineiacMan,

                    I have to agree with Craig for the most part, especially on the Republicans. While I still think the jury is out on Obama, I don't think he had much of a choice but to sink a ton of stimulus money into the economy when he did. We were headed off a cliff and nobody was spending anything, the government had to step in, I don't think there was a viable alternative at that time. That's not to say we need to do it again, but given the circumstances what other choice or proposals were out there? None from the sorry Republicans.

                    They have offered nothing but obstructionism and bellyaching, at the urging of the loudmouth media goons that they are to wimpish to take on, it's pathetic. I have no respect for the GOP, as if I had much before, but they have not earned the right to govern a block party. They will probably win back the House and then they will have to put their considerable whining rhetoric into actionable results.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 1:28 pm ET)
                        5
                      I disagree,

                      In fact I think that all of this government spending and expansion is going to result in extended pain. I think that 9+% unemployment will become the "new normal" BECAUSE of an oversized and overly oppresive government. Spending money to get out of a hole may numb the pain for a while but it just prolongs the time it takes to get out of the hole. It devalues the dollar and it creates an economic drag that slows recovery on the whole. Are there people that benefit, sure. Is it good on the whole. I dont think so.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 1:31 pm ET)
                          4
                        I don't disagree. Government spending and government jobs will not create any wealth or improve the economy, it's up to the private sector. I was talking about what needed to be done after Bush wrecked the economy. And how the hypocritical GOP stood by then, and is now throwing a hissy fit.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by CoolSlaw (September 10, 2010 4:03 am ET)
                          1  
                          The government sometimes needs to step in and take action when segments of the private sector become too big, consolidated and unresponsive.

                          Sometimes these segments of the private sector act in ways that enrich themselves to the detriment of the Nation. I don't understand why conservatives who are so quick to condemn any group for a minority who exhibit criminal behavior, will absolutely refuse to consider that rich and powerful people can have some bad apples in the bunch as well.

                          You know the old analogy about bad apples, don't you? Leave them in the basket long enough and soon the rot spreads. I think we're seeing that happen within the ranks of the wealthy and powerful business class in America right now. It is frustrating to see a group of people with so much influence over the well being of our economy treated as though they are above reproach.

                          So save your private sector=good, government=bad over simplifications.

                          Government is made up of PEOPLE, the private sector is made up of PEOPLE. They can be good, bad, or mediocre. It's up to we the people to vote for good representatives to regulate the industries that have a direct stake in ALL of our fortunes and futures.
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by The New Pilgrims (September 09, 2010 12:43 pm ET)
                2  
                Have some integrity. Have some consistency.

                Thanks, I already have integrity and consistency. I heartily recommend you consider getting some for yourself, before it's too late. God Bless!
                Report Abuse
              • Author by CoolSlaw (September 10, 2010 3:31 am ET)
                   
                Conservatives don't get it...you are not being led by actual conservatives! You are being led by a group of elite wealthy con-men who have taken over the republican party and feed you scraps of theology and bigotry and "family values" which you self-described "conservatives" lap up and then ignore the real agenda of the dog whistle blowing con-men.

                This is what is so frustrating about dealing with so-called conservatives. Millions of duped and willfully ignorant Americans marching to the tune of a slick and well funded misinformation machine so that a small group of elites can become filthy(er) rich!
                Report Abuse
          • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (September 09, 2010 2:06 pm ET)
            4 1
            Psst - Bush sucked

            Right!<sarcasm>

            Republicans/conservatives or whatever you want to call yourselves didn't start to say Bush "sucked" until this country was well into it's second depression and YOU could no longer deny he was a disaster as President!

            For 7 years, as Bush AND the Republican Congress spent YOUR tax dollars like drunken sailors on 24 hour leave, yet you folks only had praise for Bush and the Republican Congress! 2 wars (one of choice) costing 1 TRILLION dollars (and counting), to the 2.48 TRILLION dollar tax cuts to the 1.2 TRILLION dollar Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit, NONE of which was paid. And YOU folks didn't open your mouths with ANY concern about the deficit! Not ONE SINGLE REPUBLICAN SPENDING BILL was EVER vetoed from 2001 through 2006, yet YOU folks didn't say ONE WORD about spending!

            So NOW you want everyone to ignore your former praise for Bush because NOW you claim he sucked?

            And what about the Republican Congress, you know, the same ones trying to get back into power? Is it time to acknowledge that they too "sucked"? Is it time to acknowledge that THEY wrote the book on out of control spending of YOUR tax dollars?

            Here's a clue! Bush "sucked" from the moment the Supreme Court GAVE him the presidency and I didn't have to suffer through 8 years to know that! Just like over 4,000 American soldiers didn't have to die for ME to know that the Iraq war was NOT about the safety of this country!

            I'm just sorry it took YOU folks sooo d*mn long to realize that Bush "sucked"! We might have saved the economy and American lives had YOU folks realized that fact sooner!

            Report Abuse
          • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (September 09, 2010 2:27 pm ET)
            2 1
            Psst - Bush sucked

            Right!<sarcasm>

            Republicans/conservatives or whatever you want to call yourselves didn't start to say Bush "sucked" until this country was well into it's second depression and YOU could no longer deny he was a disaster as President!

            For 7 years, as Bush AND the Republican Congress spent YOUR tax dollars like drunken sailors on 24 hour leave, yet you folks only had praise for Bush and the Republican Congress! 2 wars (one of choice) costing 1 TRILLION dollars (and counting), to the 2.48 TRILLION dollar tax cuts to the 1.2 TRILLION dollar Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit, NONE of which was paid. And YOU folks didn't open your mouths with ANY concern about the deficit! Not ONE SINGLE REPUBLICAN SPENDING BILL was EVER vetoed from 2001 through 2006, yet YOU folks didn't say ONE WORD about spending!

            So NOW you want everyone to ignore your former praise for Bush because NOW you claim he sucked?

            And what about the Republican Congress, you know, the same ones trying to get back into power? Is it time to acknowledge that they too "sucked"? Is it time to acknowledge that THEY wrote the book on out of control spending of YOUR tax dollars?

            Here's a clue! Bush "sucked" from the moment the Supreme Court GAVE him the presidency and I didn't have to suffer through 8 years to know that! Just like over 4,000 American soldiers didn't have to die for ME to know that the Iraq war was NOT about the safety of this country!

            I'm just sorry it took YOU folks sooo d*mn long to realize that Bush "sucked"! We might have saved the economy and American lives had YOU folks realized that fact sooner!

            Report Abuse
            • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 3:09 pm ET)
                2
              I dont have praise for Bush. I am (at this point) embarassed to say that I voted for Gore in 2000 (I guess in hopes of continuing the 'Clinton economy' and not knowing about his rather extreme environmentalist agenda at the time) and I didnt vote in 2004. So I didnt like Bush when he started and liked him even less when he started governing like a BIG government progressive. I also dont have praise for Obama. They BOTH spend like drunks! Want proof? Chew on this!

              http://cnsnews.com/news/article/72404
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (September 09, 2010 4:48 pm ET)
                2 1
                I also dont have praise for Obama. They BOTH spend like drunks! Want proof? Chew on this!

                First , the next time YOU want ME to "chew on this" get me something from someone with a h*ll of a lot more credibility than this guy, otherwise DON'T WASTE MY TIME!

                Terence P. Jeffrey is editor in chief of the Internet news service CNSNews.com, a position he assumed in September 2007. He became Editor of Human Events, a national conservative weekly in the United States, in 1996. Prior to that, he served as campaign manager to Republican candidate Pat Buchanan in the 1996 presidential race, and as research director in Buchanan's 1992 campaign

                And second, WHAT in the H*ll did YOU think would help a country's economy that was well into it's second depression? Tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%? Didn't we try that already?

                Spending was the ONLY way to save this economy and it's too d*mn bad that neither YOU nor many of your Republican friends can admit it!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by MaineiacMan (September 09, 2010 5:17 pm ET)
                    2
                  What do you mean "was" the only way to save the economy?

                  Most of us are still waiting for it TO BE saved. Remember his first stimulus, he had to do it to keep unemployment below 8%. Next up - union bailouts, next up - state bailouts, next up - stimulus #2 (under the guise of infrastructure improvements).

                  As for the integrity of that writer, I dont see you pointing out any lies...so shoot the messenger if you wish but chew on the truth.

                  You have made it clear that anything coming from a Democrat is good and anything coming from a Republican is bad.

                  You have made it clear that you dont think it possible for someone to think that BOTH Bush and Obama suck.

                  Your inability to stear past the letters "D" and "R" make you a perfect MM4A parrot. Congratulations!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jaguarundi (September 09, 2010 6:19 pm ET)
                    2  
                    Remember his first stimulus . .
                    You fail to note that the TARP was originated during Bush with McCain breaking his campaign to support it and Boehner literally crying (in the house) for the house to pass it. Why do right wingers rewrite history in their minds so easily?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by jaguarundi (September 09, 2010 6:29 pm ET)
                      1  
                      Why do right wingers rewrite history in their minds so easily?
                      Rhetorical question answered by The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. available on the web.

                      I'm guessing RightON scores over 130 and MaineiacMan about 135. The character traits of RWA personalities explains why you should waste no time on either of them because they will shortly revert from any enlightenment you may instill on them. I had a hard time understanding why Fox could repeatedly lie and seem to get away with it until I read this study.
                      Sorry about the wasted effort on the RWA trolls and basically the future of the country.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 6:43 pm ET)
                        1 5
                        Hey, don't blame me. I might try and swallow some of that enlightened liberal wisdom if I could ever nail down what it was!

                        If you enlighteners would stop double speaking in liberal code and just say what it is you really want, mean and advocate, then I could gauge that enlightenment meter in my closed troll-mind and see if any of it seeps in.

                        Until then, I will have to settle for an enlightened envelope of liberals surrounding me here.

                        I carry on, oh so unenlightened.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by CoolSlaw (September 10, 2010 3:39 am ET)
                             
                          Here's a hint on how to absorb some of that liberal wisdom:

                          listen

                          Whoa...that's a tough one, but I have more for you:

                          Stop approaching everything with already pre-conceived end results and jusdgements. This is one of the major logical flaws used by the right wing in this country. When even that fails they just go back and distort and rewrite history, counting on your short memory and desire to see things the way you want, rather then as they are.
                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by rrastro (September 09, 2010 8:03 pm ET)
                        2
                      tarp not the first stimulus
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by jaguarundi (September 10, 2010 5:56 pm ET)
                        1  
                        When a Republican is in the white house the Republicans in the legislature were rushing to pour money on the economy (i.e. TARP). As soon as a Democrat is the chief executive, not a single one is willing to try ANY measure to address the problem. Let's just block ANY attempt to deliver ANY aid whatsoever. When asked what they would do the universal answer was "Not this". Disingenuously acting like they may be willing to support this or that if you change it to the point that it has no chance of being effective and then saying "nevermind" when the vote finally comes down. No policy suggestions but that which completely failed before. They shouldn't be called the "Party of No" they should just be called CockBlockers.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by rrastro (September 09, 2010 8:02 pm ET)
                      2
                    I remember washington rendering Indiana's retirement fund (for the darlings of the left the teachers lol)bonds in GM worthless so they could shower ownership on the UAW.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (September 10, 2010 5:28 am ET)
                       
                    Most of us are still waiting for it TO BE saved. Remember his first stimulus, he had to do it to keep unemployment below 8%. Next up - union bailouts, next up - state bailouts, next up - stimulus #2 (under the guise of infrastructure improvements).


                    ANYONE with a lick of common sense would understand that stimulus was needed and the government was the only one who had the money to stimulate this economy.

                    It's asinine to think President Obama should have fixed the unemployment situation without acknowledging that Bush only created 3 million jobs in his ENTIRE 8 years in office. And Bush lost 1.7 million jobs in 2008 ALONE, over 1.5 million lost in the last 3 months of 2008!

                    It's also asinine to think President Obama should have fixed the housing foreclosure problem considering the problem was small back in 2006 and with no attention paid to the problem it's become a humongous disaster by 2009.

                    The median income for Americans dropped under Bush while the income inequality widened. Poverty increased under Bush and the number of people without insurance increased.

                    What in the H*LL do YOU expect, President Obama to do, twitch his nose like Bewitched and all will be well? GIVE HIM TIME TO FIX IT!!!!

                    I would be the first to say I want this economy fixed yesterday! But I'm an adult enough to understand that this country is in a big, big mess and it's going to take time and effort FROM ALL of us to fix it! And seriously, you can't think that McCain/Palin presidency would result in a thriving economy, with low unemployment IN 2 YEARS?

                    As for the integrity of that writer, I don't see you pointing out any lies...so shoot the messenger if you wish but chew on the truth.


                    I didn't even bother to read the article once I noticed it was written by Republican partisan Terry Jeffrey. I've seen him on on Chris Matthews and other shows and his obvious pro-Republican ANYTHING makes it not worth my time reading ANYTHING he's writing criticizing President Obama. He's about as fair & balanced and Fox Noise!

                    You have made it clear that anything coming from a Democrat is good and anything coming from a Republican is bad.


                    I'm a registered Independent so neither a "R" nor A "D" makes a difference. However I've yet to find a "R" with the b*lls to tell the d*mn truth about ANYTHING! I've yet to find an "R" with ANY other solution except a tax cut for the wealthy and corporate America.

                    I have plenty of complaints about Democrats, however I just suffered through 6 years of total Republican control of the government so I already know they can't walk and chew gum at the same time! I don't need a repeat!

                    You have made it clear that you don't think it possible for someone to think that BOTH Bush and Obama suck.

                    This country suffered through 8 years of Bush so it's easy to say Bush sucks! However President Obama has only been in office for 2 freaking years. It takes time and it takes adults to work together to fix this country.

                    Republicans so far have nothing to offer. Their solution is to simply say "no", like my 1 1/2 years old great granddaughter.

                    Your inability to stear past the letters "D" and "R" make you a perfect MM4A parrot. Congratulations!


                    I could seriously give a rat's a**!

                    Your only response to the truth is to say Bush sucks and President Obama sucks, which is about as helpful as YOU p*ssing on the wildfire in Colorado!
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by nativeofsf (September 09, 2010 6:17 pm ET)
      2  
      OK, now it's very clear...

      Prostate, Yes! Economy...No!

      So Boner don't wanna tweak America's economy?
      Yeah right, he wants his tweaked but...
      he ain't a-gonna put-out -- for his country?
      Like that makes Boner...a pretty-limp patriot, huh?
      Way to go dude -- like take one for your stupid,Team of NO!

      Like just go ahead and bend over, it's a free country.
      You can still smile for the cameras...if you call that a...what, grimace? Face it, you don't really care, just so long as you look good...cause Boner don't care about America


      Report Abuse
      • Author by rrastro (September 09, 2010 7:59 pm ET)
          3
        after the top 2% pay more taxes why will the invest? and with what? borrowed money aka the obama way?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by nativeofsf (September 09, 2010 9:38 pm ET)
          2  
          Eeew, your comment is so lame & flabby-weak. It reminds one of what Hit Girl said to that dorky Kick-Ass: "Aww dude, that is one gay-looking taser." Your whiny sludge is sooo grade school, you tool. It's as if you willingly got a lobotomy, just so you could post that poo your head is filled with. Bravo!
          Report Abuse
    • Author by rrastro (September 09, 2010 7:58 pm ET)
        4
      LIBERAL economists say the stimulus supported recovery.

      What recovery? Next youll say bloated health costs are good for business....
      Report Abuse
      • Author by nativeofsf (September 09, 2010 9:45 pm ET)
        1  
        Ratso, you're not just a tool -- you're a troll!

        So, please PosBang if believe rrastro's a troll...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jaguarundi (September 10, 2010 6:23 pm ET)
          2  
          Yep, I confirm. TROLL.
          He's arguing that there was NO recovery from that stimulus. We were faced with the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression. All the economists that Troll reads say the meager stimulus had no effect despite the many famous economists that appeared in the last few weeks. Here's the labeling rules: If they say the stimulus did anything positive, they're gawddamn LIBRULS. Listen to economists like Newt & Palin while ignoring Nobel Prize winning economists.

          Naw, we need mor tax kuts fer rich people 'cuz that's werked so well the other 5 times we tried it in the past.
          Moron.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by CoolSlaw (September 10, 2010 3:51 am ET)
        1  
        So the stimulus, one of the first things to get passed by the Obama administration and which most economists say was too little though effective for what it was didn't save the universe after eight disastrous years of out of control spending and deregulation that quickly led to a housing bubble and collapse.

        Just imagine how much better things would be now if the republicans hadn't demanded the pork and tax cuts, and if they hadn't filibustered almost everything else the President had been trying to do over the last two years.

        OH! I see now, you're trying to tell us things were better in complete collapse and free-fall caused by the Bush Administration, and that you're too limited intellectually to perceive that things would be much worse without the stimulus, and that the economy can only operate in two over-simplified modes: good and bad.

        I see, well since you don't understand complex issues that can't be defined in dumbed down terms, maybe you shouldn't post on a website with informed people having grown-up discussions.

        I'm sure Fox News and Glenn Beck have new thinking for you to use in place of doing your own.
        Report Abuse

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