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Conservative media cry "class warfare" at prospect of less large tax cuts for top-earners

September 08, 2010 12:16 pm ET — 71 Comments

Faced with the prospect of the top two income tax rates returning to where they were in 2000, conservative media have accused Democrats of engaging in "class warfare" to attack the "so-called rich." Economists have said that extending the Bush tax cuts for top earners -- which would reportedly cost $700 billion over ten years -- would do little to stimulate the economy; moreover, households making more than $250,000 will still pay less in taxes under Obama's plan than if all of the tax cuts were allowed to expire as Republicans originally scheduled them to do.

Economists say extending tax cuts for the wealthy would increase deficit while doing little to stimulate the economy

GOP Congress, Bush mandated that the tax cuts would expire after 2010. With the exception of changes to the estate tax, the 2001 tax bill states: "All provisions of, and amendments made by, this Act shall not apply ... to taxable, plan, or limitation years beginning after December 31, 2010." The 2001 tax bill passed the House and Senate with near-unanimous Republican support. The 2003 tax bill -- which also passed both houses with near-unanimous Republican support -- incorporated the sunset provisions from the 2001 tax bill.

Wash. Post: Sunsets allowed GOP to "boost the size of the tax cut" while "hiding its true cost" and getting Dem support. In a May 27, 2001, articleThe Washington Post reported: "By terminating the tax cuts at the end of 2010, negotiators were able to avoid some tough decisions. Since they could now distribute the same amount of money over nine years rather than 10 years, they effectively boosted the size of the tax cut while at the same time hiding its true cost." The Post reported in a May 24, 2003, article that "by 'sunsetting' all the tax cuts well before the bill's official 2013 expiration date, congressional tax writers took a measure that otherwise would have cost the Treasury more than $800 billion over the next decade and crammed it into a $350 billion price tag that could garner just enough support to pass the Senate. Democrats and Republicans alike predict that future Congresses and administrations will not let the tax cuts expire."

Obama wants to extend all of the lowered rates except for the top two. As The New York Times reported on August 10, Obama proposes "to extend the tax cuts for individuals with less than $200,000 in annual taxable income and couples with less than $250,000 -- about 98 percent of American households." The Times further noted:

If the president gets his way, in 2011 the top two income tax rates -- now 33 percent and 35 percent -- would revert to the levels before the Bush administration, 36 percent and 39.6 percent, respectively. But the four lower rates would remain 10 percent, 15 percent, 25 percent and 28 percent. For some taxpayers earning up to $250,000, the top marginal rate would remain 33 percent.

Extending all tax cuts for upper-earners would reportedly cost $700 billion over ten years. The Washington Post reported that an analysis by the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation found that a "Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year." The New York Times further reported that the 10-year cost of extending the tax cuts for the upper-income earners would be "about $700 billion."

Economists: Extending the tax cuts that benefit only the wealthy is poor stimulus. Howard Gleckman of the Tax Policy Center wrote that "higher income households are more likely to bank the cash than spend it. As a result, tax cuts for these high-earners will do relatively little to boost the economy in the short run." The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has also stated that as stimulus, allowing only the top tax cuts to expire "would be more cost-effective" than extending all of the cuts "because the higher-income households that would be excluded would probably save a larger fraction of their increase in after-tax income." Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman also said of extending the tax cuts for the wealthy: "it's hard to think of a less cost-effective way to help the economy."

Top earners would still gain from tax cuts

Wealthy taxpayers would still have lower taxes under Obama plan than if all the cuts expired as scheduled. The Times further reported that according to a Joint Committee on Taxation analysis, taxpayers with income over $250,000 would have a higher top tax rate, but would still benefit from the other "four lower rates on up to the first $250,000 of their income." For instance, "Filers with taxable income of $500,000 to $1 million would still get on average a tax cut of $6,700 compared with pre-2001 rates, according to the data from the tax analysts. But that compares with roughly $17,500 if the top Bush tax rates were maintained."

A tax calculator provided by National Public Radio demonstrates that if all the tax cuts were extended, a married couple earning $300,000 would pay $734 dollars less than under Obama's plan, a difference that represents 0.2 percent of the household's income. By contrast, if all the tax cuts were allowed to expire as scheduled, the household would pay $8,534 more than under Obama's plan. A graphic created by The Washington Post shows the average tax cut for taxpayers at each income level under the Democrats' plan "which extends cuts only for families making less than $250,000 a year," and the Republicans' proposal to extend all cuts:

washpost-graphic

Conservative media accuse Dems of engaging in "class warfare" for wanting to extend most, but not all of Bush's tax cuts

Van Susteren and Carlson agree that not extending the top Bush tax cuts is "very flatly and plainly a question of class warfare." On the September 7 edition of Fox News' On the Record, Greta Van Susteren hosted Fox News contributor Tucker Carlson to discuss President Obama's opposition to extending tax cuts for the wealthy. During the segment, Van Susteren said of Obama's decision against extending the tax cuts, "I'm wondering how much of this is legitimate economic planning, that the president truly believes this, or even, you know, Peter Orszag truly believes it, and how much of it is political in the sense trying to create almost political warfare, trying to divide the upper 2 percent from the rest of the population." She also said that eliminating the tax cuts for the top 2 percent is "almost a class warfare political weapon." Carlson responded:

CARLSON: Well, it's very flatly and plainly a question of class warfare. I mean, look, I'm hardly defending rich people. I'm not a rich person, unfortunately, though I aspire to that. They pay for everything in this country. The top 10 percent pays more than half of federal taxes. You take out rich people, and the country doesn't run. That's just a fact. That's not defense of a class or a social system, those are [...] numbers you can't debate.

Krauthammer: The "idea is class warfare." On the September 1 edition of Fox News' Special Report, responding to a question on whether Obama would "veto in a recession the extension of all the current tax rates for the next year," Charles Krauthammer said, "I think he will because that's all he's got. He can't argue his economic policies have succeeded. That's not anything anybody would believe. What the idea is class warfare. The Republicans are in favor of the rich and we are in favor of the middle class. That's all they have and they're going to stick to it." 

IBD: Pelosi, Reid, and Democratic majorities in Congress "are locked into their class warfare ideology." In an August 12 editorial, Investor's Business Daily stated: "Unfortunately, President Obama, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and the Democratic majorities in Congress are locked into their class warfare ideology. Allowing the job creators of the U.S. economy to keep their lowered tax rates would mean letting them keep close to $36 billion of their own money in 2011, and the party's base cannot stomach such thoughts."

WSJ blogger: Prepare for "more sad, divisive class warfare led by your president. In an August 11 Wall Street Journal blog post, Evan Newmark wrote that "After alienating most white Americans ... President Obama and his White House gang are launching a fresh 'pitchfork and torches' assault on Republicans and America's 'rich.' " Commenting on Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner's statement that tax cuts for the wealthy should be allowed to expire, Newmark wrote, "This is the dry language you'd expect from a career bureaucrat. But beneath his arch tone is real class war demagoguery." He later stated that the Obama administration understands that by "jacking taxes on America's 2 million 'rich' " it will be difficult to "put them in the spending mood" and added, "and that's why it's back to class warfare."

NRO post: The "progressives' class-warfare gambit may backfire disastrously this November." In an August 10 National Review Online post headlined "The Class-Warfare Gambit," Michael G. Franc, vice president of government relations for the Heritage Foundation, claimed that Democrats are "plan[ning]" to "soak only the top-earning households in America" when the Bush tax cuts expire on January 1, 2011. He further wrote that "the politics of 'taxing the rich' may turn out to be more complex than Democratic strategists first envisioned. Indeed, the progressives' class-warfare gambit may backfire disastrously this November."

Armstrong Williams: "As if the race baiting by the White House weren't enough, it's now in full-throated class warfare." In an August 8 Washington Times "analysis/opinion" piece, after correctly observing that "the tax rate cuts that President George W. Bush and the Republican led-Congress pushed through in 2001 are set to expire" on January 1, 2011, conservative political commentator Armstrong Williams claimed that the Obama administration is "pondering tax increases" and accused the Obama administration of "full-throated class warfare, pitting this faceless rich no one seems to know against the poor, who seem to be on every corner in President Obama's mind."

LVRJ: "Mr. Obama's class warfare rhetoric and desire to expand the regulatory state only exacerbates" uncertainty on hiring. In an August 8 editorial, the Las Vegas Review-Journal wrote: "Indeed, many employers remain reluctant to expand -- perhaps either still smarting from the hit of the 2008 economic meltdown or worried about the direction this president has taken the economy. With the Bush tax cuts set to expire at the end of the year, thousands of business owners and potential entrepreneurs face an uncertain future. Mr. Obama's class warfare rhetoric and desire to expand the regulatory state only exacerbates the problem."

IBD: The "so-called progressive left ... has used class warfare to divide us." In an August 6 editorial, Investor's Business Daily wrote:

Instead of slashing spending, as common sense and economic reality would dictate, some want to let Bush's 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire. Those cuts were responsible for the economy's recovery from the triple whammy of the 1999-2000 stock market meltdown, the Y2K debacle and the 2001 recession.

At the same time, Americans will be hit with a blizzard of new regulations and higher taxes from this year's health-care and financial reform laws. That could sink the economy again.

The regulatory and tax siege has sent America's entrepreneurial, job and wealth-creating class reeling. The so-called progressive left now in charge of government has used class warfare to divide us -- always blaming the "rich" (anyone who earns more than $200,000), entrepreneurs and businesses for not doing enough.

Hannity: What "do you say to Democrats who play the class warfare card" and are willing to let the Bush tax cuts expire? During a July 30 interview with Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN) on his Fox News show, Hannity said of the Bush tax cuts:

HANNITY: Yes, look, it's going to be interesting because the president obviously wants them to expire, especially for the wealthy. What do you say to democrats who play the class warfare card and say, no we'll just let them expire for, quote, "the wealthiest Americans," those who are making over $200,000 or more which by the way the top ten percent pay over 70 percent of the income taxes in this country. Why would you argue that's a bad idea?

Doocy: Democrats want to raise taxes on "those evil, successful people," "the so-called rich." On the July 27 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Steve Doocy claimed that Democrats say "those evil, successful people at the top 3 or 4 or 5 percent -- the so-called rich Americans -- we're going to continue to tax them at a higher rate." Doocy continued by suggesting that when you're talking about these "so-called rich Americans," "you're not talking about Donald Trump or a member of the Rockefeller family. You're talking about a lot of people who own and operate America's small businesses."

Thompson: Obama is "going to base this tax cut on rich versus poor." During a July 27 interview by Sean Hannity, former Senator Fred Thompson asserted: "People are not as susceptible to having their envy played upon as this administration thinks. They think that if they can do something, even if it hurts the economy, that's going to take something away from a group that they're not a part of, the 2 or 3 percent, the way they like to put it, that that will go over well politically and they can win that, you know. Rich versus poor." He added that the president is "going to base this tax argument on rich versus poor. Going to give everybody -- everybody in America a tax cut, in effect, or let the tax cuts remain for them, except just two or three percent of the people. That just happens to be a third of our consumers and produce most of our jobs."

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    • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 12:26 pm ET)
      1 13
      It's not only conservatives....

      "Yet no one wants to make an already stagnating jobs market worse over the next year or two, which is exactly what would happen if the cuts expire as planned.

      Higher taxes now would crimp consumer spending, further depressing the already inadequate demand for what firms are capable of producing at full tilt"
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 12:36 pm ET)
        4  
        "Despite a dire fiscal outlook, many progressives want to make the tax cuts permanent for all but the very highest earners. Many conservatives are even worse: they’d make the tax cuts permanent for the likes of Warren Buffett, even though he’d prefer they didn’t. Making all the tax cuts permanent would expand the deficit by more than $3 trillion over the next decade.

        Both approaches lock us into a budget scenario out of which there are few politically plausible routes of escape. Although hardly anyone wants to admit it, we’re not going to solve our budget problem over the next decade unless revenue is part of the equation. "
        Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 12:42 pm ET)
          1 11
          I think Orszag's point, a very valid one, is that raising taxes (or letting tax cuts expire) is not a good idea during an economic slump.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 12:53 pm ET)
            7  
            I think Orszag is not crying "class warfare."
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 12:57 pm ET)
              1 11
              No, he's not. But I was speaking to the larger point instead of the endless debate over people's touchy sensibilities to labels.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 2:24 pm ET)
                6  
                I thought the larger point was the presence or absence of class warfare. I guess "class warfare" is now officially nothing more than a label for something that doesn't exist, used strictly by touchy and sensitive people.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 2:30 pm ET)
                  1 9
                  If you don't think it's an endless debate, then we disagree.

                  Cons, me included, think it's class warfare when you try to get one angry at another; i.e. get angry at the rich because they have everything.

                  Libs, like you maybe, think it's class warfare when rich people crap on poor people and try and shirk their fair share as they are far more fortunate and have more to give.

                  Did I summarize both pretty accurately? Point is, it is endlessly debated and nothing solved. As is the case with most labels, so why bother?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 4:07 pm ET)
                    14  
                    I get angry at the rich not because they have everything. It's because they CONTROL everything. They are the de facto political leaders. The more money you have, the more control you have. That's the root of my animosity, not some ridiculous fit of jealousy or envy over how many mansions or yachts they own.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by RiffRabbit (September 08, 2010 1:02 pm ET)
            10  
            I'm not sure how letting tax cuts (which BTB Republicans designed to expire) end is exactly the same as raising taxes. Conservatives seem to want to have it both ways.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 1:05 pm ET)
              2 11
              I said it is irrelevant to me what label you put on it or what you call it, the result is the same.

              If the percentage of taxes you pay today is higher than what it was yesterday, your taxes went up, an increase.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by MiniTru (September 08, 2010 1:11 pm ET)
                8  
                Unless it was an expiration of a temporary rollback, in which case it is nothing like a tax increase.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 1:13 pm ET)
                  2 8
                  Feel free to call it a polka dot elephant if you'd like. It makes no difference.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 1:42 pm ET)
                    8 1
                    But it DOES make a difference. That's the whole point of this line of discussion. It DOES make a difference how you classify it. It matters in how it's perceived, which IS relevant to the REASONS that people like you like to whine about "class warfare".

                    In fact, that's the SUBJECT of the article by MMFA - and so, it's 100% relevant, despite YOUR protestations that it "makes no difference".

                    There's NO evidence of class warfare by Dems upon the wealthy - the tax cuts were scheduled to expire by REPUBLICANS, remember, and Obama is actually cutting them a break, and so in NO way can it realistically be called "class warfare".
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 1:47 pm ET)
                      2 8
                      It's not my fault that MMfA is sensitive to that label, and of course you would be too then. I would suggest you buck up and stop whining over silly irrelevant labels, it just reveals more of your pettiness.

                      But if you must, go ahead.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 2:51 pm ET)
                        7 1
                        If MMFA and I were whining over silly, irrelevant labels, you'd have a point besides the one on the top of your head.

                        But we ARE NOT whining over any irrelevancies. It DOES matter. It DOES create preceptions and preceptions DO matter and DO affect people's beliefs and opinions and understandings.

                        So, yeah, I understand that it's to your side's best interest to pretend that it doesn't matter.

                        Your OBJECTION here tells us that, in fact, you're well aware of how much it actually DOES matter! That you'd be happier if we WOULD ignore this behavior by the rightwing media - if we simply left you unmolested to push that spin!
                        Too bad, so sad.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 2:57 pm ET)
                          1 9
                          You never make any sense Sue.

                          How is it in "my side's" best interest to call the label silly and irrelevant when it's used far more by conservatives against "your side"? Do you have any idea how ignorant and clueless you come across when you don't even think before you post from reflex?

                          When you can come up with a good reason why it's nothing more than your childish sensitivity to a meaningless label, then try again.

                          Otherwise, it's just more of your unhinged nonsense.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by pongotwistleton (September 08, 2010 3:17 pm ET)
                            3 8
                            When you can come up with a good reason why it's nothing more than your childish sensitivity to a meaningless label, then try again.

                            Since you're arguing with someone who whines about how many people give her a thumbs-down, you probably shouldn't be too surprised that she's one of the mindless zombies who react reflexively to political catch-phrases. Terms like "class-warfare" is like a dog whistle to the middling sheep (Dippy, case in point) on both sides of the aisle.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 3:21 pm ET)
                                8
                              Lol. That it is. And DollySue is too simple to realize that cons use it to get under her and MMfA's skin and loooove the freak out reaction they get. Like "OUR OBJECTIONS".

                              She is like a finely tuned violin.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 5:24 pm ET)
                                2  
                                And DollySue is too simple to realize that cons use it to get under her and MMfA's skin and loooove the freak out reaction they get.
                                Tommy. Pot meet kettle.
                                Report Abuse
                            • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 6:20 pm ET)
                              5 1
                              Liar.

                              I have never once whined about people giving me a thumbs down.

                              But that's why you failed to present a single example of it - because I've never done it. I have ALWAYS simply mocked those who do it, for their simple-minded thought that it actually means something when it's done as a personal attack and NOT done over any kind of legit complaint about the content of the post.

                              And I didn't react reflexively either, but YOU, on the other hand, DID. YOU are the one who, when confronted with an argument you can't defeat, chooses to let a sockpuppet loose that you can agree then agree with when they make the obligatory baseless personal attack, RightON.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:26 pm ET)
                                  7
                                "I have never once whined about people giving me a thumbs down"

                                Whopper of the Year! LOL!
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Another_Cat (September 09, 2010 12:23 am ET)
                                  7  
                                  Hmm...calling it a whopper and yet still failing to provide evidence to the contrary.

                                  Fail.

                                  And I would like to disagree with all of you that it's just a label and it does or doesn't matter...it's not just a label. Saying it that way makes it seem like we are arguing semantics, which I believe we are not. What we are arguing is definition. Just because I call air "water" does not mean I will drown from breathing it. I see the word "increase" as exactly that, the wrong definition. If a store has a 20% off sale, this is what happens to the prices:

                                  Normal Price
                                  Sale Price(20% reduction)
                                  Normal Price(after the sale ends)

                                  Using the right-wing definition, this is what you would see:

                                  Normal Price ($2.00 - normal tax rate)
                                  Sale Price ($1.60 - tax cut from previous rate)
                                  Something Greater than Normal Price ("Increase")

                                  Reality would look like this because the definition of increase applies to the Normal Price, not the Sale Price...you cannot have an increase when the new, "increased" level is the same as the previous level. Since that scenario is not borne out by the numbers, calling expiring tax cuts "increases" is ignorant at best, and flat-out dishonest otherwise.
                                  Report Abuse
                                • Author by DellDolly (September 09, 2010 1:07 am ET)
                                  1  
                                  Thanks for providing evidence and examples of how it's a whopper.... oops, that's right, you didn't provide a SINGLE example of your bogus accusation.

                                  But that's because you have this kneejerk need to attack me because of your personal animus because you can't stand how much I've diminished your stature here.

                                  Too bad, so sad.
                                  Report Abuse
                              • Author by pongotwistleton (September 09, 2010 9:03 am ET)
                                1 4
                                Liar.

                                I have ALWAYS simply mocked those who do it, for their simple-minded thought that it actually means something when it's done as a personal attack and NOT done over any kind of legit complaint about the content of the post.

                                How do you know why someone gives you a thumbs-down? I mean, it's easily conceivable that someone would give you a thumbs down for one of your many lies.

                                Just last week I demonstrated, again, and undeniably, that you're a liar. Remember? When I once more pointed out your flagrant dishonesty regarding the dui thread. I think it's perfectly "legit" to give a thumbs down to the posts of an inveterate liar, like you.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by DellDolly (September 09, 2010 2:27 pm ET)
                                  2  
                                  Yes, OF COURSE, doofus, there are CLEARLY times when someone would actually give me a thumbs down because of the content of my post!

                                  I have NEVER denied that, dummy! Never.

                                  What I HAVE very successfully pointed out on many occasions, with MULTIPLE examples, is that at times, the thumbs down have to do with ME personally, rather than the CONTENT of my posts, doofus!

                                  Of course, I don't LIE, and so your charge that you're downrating my posts because of lies included in them is totally bogus.

                                  You did NOT point out last week that I was a liar. In fact, as I've done every time you've made that accusation, I documented how YOU'RE too stupid to figure out the context of what I said, and you're cropping a comment out of context, and you misinterpreted what I wrote.

                                  And IF I lie in A post, then it'd be perfectly appropriate to thumb down THAT post, but NOT other posts I make that don't include a lie!

                                  Because if you thumb down ALL my posts, then it's a personal attack, which is inappropriate, doofus!!! I swear, this is NOT rocket science!

                                  But what DOES happen is that you and your clone buddies often thumb down MY posts because they are made by ME when similar posts with similar content don't get thumbed down.

                                  And what that shows everyone is YOUR side's impotence - that the BEST you can do is thumb down my posts, as though that means something.

                                  Me MOCKING YOU AND YOUR SIDE is NOT me "whining" about the thumbs down, doofus. Again, this is not rocket science.

                                  Why you think it HELPS you to DOCUMENT how stupid you are (please reference the really ironic Mark Twain quote you baselessly directed MY attention to yesterday) baffles any thinking person! You need to let your personal animus go.
                                  Report Abuse
                          • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 3:18 pm ET)
                            7  
                            To pretend that OUR OBJECTIONS don't matter, doofus.

                            It's YOU who comes across as a disingenuous, dishonest paid troll who cropped a comment out of context in order to dishonestly portray that comment.
                            Report Abuse
          • Author by AMAZON (September 08, 2010 2:00 pm ET)
            8  
            I think the following statement, which you left out, is essential.

            Ideally only the middle-class tax cuts would be continued for now. Getting a deal in Congress, though, may require keeping the high-income tax cuts, too. And that would still be worth it.


            So what Mr. Orszag is saying is that what Obama wants to do (let the tax cuts expire ONLY for the top earners) is the ideal way to go.

            I don't think he is trying to make the point you state above but rather looking at the possible scenarios and what he thinks might be a good enough path considering the current political environment.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by albertsenj (September 09, 2010 2:30 am ET)
            2  
            So, what was your position when the GOP wrote those tax cuts to expire in 2010?

            Is there ANY time when you think it's okay to let a tax cut expire or, raise taxes or are you one of those folks who believe that the right thing to do when the economy is booming is...cut taxes and the right thing to do when the economy is crashing is...cut taxes?

            Report Abuse
          • Author by 4teepee (September 09, 2010 4:57 am ET)
            4  
            In a stagnant economy, letting tax cuts for the rich (who have a low propensity to consume) expire is a good idea if, to compensate, taxes are cut for lower income people (who have a higher propensity to consume) or if the money taken in is spent by the government to stimulate the economy. We were taught that in Econ 101.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 1:10 pm ET)
          2 10
          I think Orszag's point, a very valid one, is that raising taxes (or letting tax cuts expire) is not a good idea during an economic slump.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 4:59 pm ET)
            7  
            I think his point is silly. Corporations have a little over a trillion dollars sitting around in profits and they are doing nothing with it in terms of creating jobs, they don't need or deserve tax breaks. Small businesses aren't hiring people because they don't have the profit margins to do so and there's no real reason for big or small businesses to receive tax cuts to create jobs because there's no demand for their goods or services anyway.

            Tax cuts can kiss off, they are a red herring.

            We need a jobs bill, a huge one to put people to work and get money in their pockets in order to stimulate demand. It will cost alot, tax revenues will need to be generated and people will p*ss and moan about government spending but it's an investment in the American people and infrastructure that we can no longer afford to delay.

            People can complain about the government getting involved in the solution but I sure as s**t don't see business doing a dam* thing but complaining about taxes on their profits. They can just stfu as far as I care.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:42 pm ET)
                7
              Wait a minute. First you complain that businesses are holding on to all their money and not investing in creating new jobs, and then you say right underneath that "there's no demand for their goods or services anyway"

              You just answered your own question as to why businesses are holding on to their money.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:51 pm ET)
                4  
                That's right. Can you tell me why companies who are just sitting on their money deserve a tax break? And can you tell me why our government; of , by and for the people ought not step in and put people to work?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:53 pm ET)
                    8
                  Because the government doesn't create wealth, it only consumes it. So stop crapping on companies who aren't foolish enough to sink their money into an economy where demand for what they are selling is as soft as you say it is. That's just loony.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 6:05 pm ET)
                    8  
                    What's absolutely loony is the believe that our government doesn't create wealth. From our banks to our courts to our schools to our roads to our military, our government enables prosperity.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:12 pm ET)
                        8
                      They 100% absolutely do not. Look, in the private sector each worker produces value in excess of the labor and material costs, right? That worker is paid and after that is profit, which leads to expansion and investment.

                      On the other hand, a govt job, no matter what it is (police, fire, etc) is an expense. That job produces no wealth and is paid 100% by the private sector jobs I mentioned above. Which means that private sector productive jobs pays the salaries of the non-productive jobs. I am not dismissing or disrespecting govt jobs but that is the economic reality of productive jobs vs non-productive ones. And you do not grow economies by expanding non-productive jobs, that is also reality.

                      You can choose to disagree if you want. This is not some right wing opinion, it is basic economic principles and common sense.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 6:50 pm ET)
                        7  
                        Teachers are not productive? Firemen are not productive? Policemen are not productive? soldiers are not productive? Sounds like you're being very dismissive of the value of public workers and the quality of life and prosperity they pitch in to create for the country as a whole.

                        Roads built, bridges built, planes, ships and the like are not things of worth that help wealth creation?

                        Nah, brotha. Government absolutely enables and produces wealth in partnership with the private sector.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:54 pm ET)
                            7
                          That is not what I meant and you know it. I explained it and if you can't understand the economics of it, don't blame me.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 7:06 pm ET)
                            7  
                            No need to be a child. I explained myself, too. Take it or leave it. Public works are productive in the preservation of and creation of wealth.
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                      • Author by Another_Cat (September 09, 2010 12:36 am ET)
                        8  
                        I will agree to that with two small addendums;

                        1. Without police, fire, etc. paid for by all taxpayers, the general security and protection of a company would eat into the profit margin and, depending on the level of protection required, could make running that business completely unprofitable, therefore denying the building of wealth.

                        2. Your statement that profit leads to expansion and investment is true, but does nothing to help the American economy if that investment is in foreign money-market accounts and outsourcing or building plants overseas. How much growth can the USA gain from jobs we don't even have? (and before you say "the taxes from the company since it's based in America", reead the tax law and look at how many sweet-deal-made-in-a-back-room-that-created-a-loophole-so-big-you-could-fly-a-747-through-it-tax-breaks there are for companies that offshore)
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                      • Author by Another_Cat (September 09, 2010 1:01 am ET)
                        3  
                        I will agree to that with two small addendums;

                        1. Without police, fire, etc. paid for by all taxpayers, the general security and protection of a company would eat into the profit margin and, depending on the level of protection required, could make running that business completely unprofitable, therefore denying the building of wealth.

                        2. Your statement that profit leads to expansion and investment is true, but does nothing to help the American economy if that investment is in foreign money-market accounts and outsourcing or building plants overseas. How much growth can the USA gain from jobs we don't even have? (and before you say "the taxes from the company since it's based in America", reead the tax law and look at how many sweet-deal-made-in-a-back-room-that-created-a-loophole-so-big-you-could-fly-a-747-through-it-tax-breaks there are for companies that offshore)
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                      • Author by albertsenj (September 09, 2010 2:45 am ET)
                        7  
                        Yes those 'non-productive' jobs are what create the conditions that allow those 'productive' jobs to be created.

                        Imagine if you will a world where every company had to build the roads it needed to move merchandise across the country (not to mention getting the raw materials in). Of course, without all those 'non-productive' jobs they would also have to provide their own police protection and fire protection.

                        Let's not forget that they would also have to find a way to educate all of their employees up to the level they needed - people aren't born knowing how to read, write and calculate.

                        Of course, if they wanted to visit their customers or suppliers in distant cities, they would have to make their own flight arrangements - including the necessary collision avoidance equipment - we wouldn't be wasting money on those expensive air-traffic control systems & personnel.

                        Need I go on?
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                        • Author by DellDolly (September 09, 2010 2:40 pm ET)
                          2  
                          No, you don't need to go on, but thanks for your input!

                          RightON has long said that "creating wealth" is the ONLY important thing. Of course it's NOT!
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                          • Author by southerngal (September 09, 2010 2:44 pm ET)
                              3
                            "RightON has long said that "creating wealth" is the ONLY important thing"

                            Really? I have said that. Link to it Liar!
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                        • Author by DellDolly (September 09, 2010 3:04 pm ET)
                          2  
                          No, you don't need to go on, but thanks for your input!

                          RightON has long said that "creating wealth" is the ONLY important thing. Of course it's NOT!
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                  • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 6:08 pm ET)
                    8  
                    And also if businesses don't care enough about anybody else to boost the economy, then our government must step in to alleviate the suffering and to do right by her tax paying citizens.
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            • Author by DellDolly (September 08, 2010 6:22 pm ET)
              5  
              There is demand.

              It's a lie that the rightwing are telling us that there's missing demand, and therefore businesses are justified in holding on to their capital to protect themselves.

              It's not true.
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      • Author by wookie (September 08, 2010 1:50 pm ET)
        5  
        I think he means taxes on consumers. Why should taxes on millionaires effect what Joe Sixpack can spend? Unless you buy the swill that all wealth is created at the top and handed down by the corporate Santa.
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    • Author by David2012 (September 08, 2010 12:39 pm ET)
      9 2
      Why wasn't it class warfare when high income peoplel got the lion's share of the 2001 tax cuts?

      There are always class conflicts. They are perpetual. The only question is, from time to time, who's winning them.

      The high income taxpayer has had a helluva run. It's time to pay the piper.
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      • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 1:35 pm ET)
        8  
        The "job creators" are still having a hell of a run. But it hasn't inspired their "creativity" much though.
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        • Author by roundhouse (September 08, 2010 5:05 pm ET)
          6  
          I disagree. Despite the reality of decades of people getting laid off, their jobs sent over seas and their wages shrunk; the wealthy b*st*rds are perpetually coming up with creative ways to convince people that if we give them a greater slice of the pie that they'll create more jobs.

          The joke's on us.
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          • Author by pete592 (September 08, 2010 5:47 pm ET)
            6  
            That's the vein I was trying to convey, Round. They're sitting on mountains of cash and they've had years to reap the "job creating" benefits of the Bush tax cuts. It's the perfect recipe for "job creation" that the supply-siders have been marketing to us since Reagan. It is a joke.
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            • Author by Andy Kreiss (September 08, 2010 8:26 pm ET)
              6  
              Yeah, but this time, they really mean it.

              It's the same old Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football scheme, and somehow millions of middle-class and working-class Americans are buying it.

              To be a disciple of reaganomics, one has to believe with all of their heart that doing the same thing we've been doing for three decades is going to have the exact opposite effect that it's been having, if we just give it one more chance.

              On a related "class warfare" topic, I just heard a little of Hugh Hewitt on the drive home from work, and he had some Evangelical wingnut on discussing the Christian Voter Guide, and explaining why real Christians should vote GOP.

              MOst bizarre bit of theology I've heard in a while: Connecting the "thou shalt not covet" commandment to higher tax rates on the super-wealthy. 95% of Americans are just sinners if they don't like the top percenters grabbing every penny they can.

              The guy didn't mention how those people got all of that money without first coveting it enough to take it from other people.
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    • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 5:19 pm ET)
      6  
      It may be class warfare...but ask yourself, "Who fired the first shot?".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:24 pm ET)
          10
        Oh I can't wait for that answer, who did fire it?

        What an ignorant comment. Whew.
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        • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 5:38 pm ET)
          8  
          Answer it yourself Tommy.
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          • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 5:44 pm ET)
            1 8
            So not only do you say you know what somebody else means, and you don't, but now you don't even know what you mean.

            I'd go back to your role of troll disrupter and distractor if I were you. Anything beyond that stumps you.
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            • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:14 pm ET)
              5  
              So you're for political parties using government services and dependence to entice voters and appeal for votes?
              What the hell are you talking about now, Tommy? I know exactly what I mean and I knew exactly what the other poster meant. It's you that were confused. Typical Tommy.
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              • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:21 pm ET)
                  6
                Now I get it. You're on and off the meds without your Dr.'s approval, that explains your bizarre responses and incoherent non-responses.

                Check back in after the 1000 volts kicks in.
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                • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:26 pm ET)
                  4  
                  You're on and off the meds without your Dr.'s approval, that explains your bizarre responses and incoherent non-responses.
                  Your opinion is both nonsensical and not important. Media matters, but you do not.
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                  • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:31 pm ET)
                      7
                    You're just pi$$ed off because you blame me for making you look like a fool, when in fact you do it all by yourself.

                    I'm not the bad guy here.
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                    • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:37 pm ET)
                      5  
                      You're just pi$$ed off because you blame me for making you look like a fool
                      Tom, you are a narcissist. You need to think people are paying attention to you and care what what you think. We don't care. You are in the vast minority here for a reason. You regularly get double-digit thumbs down for a reason.

                      You aren't the arbiter of opinion on this board. In fact, your lack of rhetorical skills means that your opinions have even less weight than the average poster. If you were a adept advocate for conservatism you could be a worthy adversary. You are not. You are simply a pip-squeak who was banned and doesn't have the balls to admit it.
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                      • Author by southerngal (September 08, 2010 6:51 pm ET)
                          6
                        Ouch!

                        Check under your thin skin, I think I just landed there.
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                        • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (September 08, 2010 6:57 pm ET)
                          6  
                          Check under your thin skin, I think I just landed there.
                          That's your narcissism talking. Delusions of grandeur can also be a symptom of classic mania.
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                    • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (September 09, 2010 12:35 pm ET)
                      5  
                      WRONG ON, your continious posts here prove what a fool you are. You just don't get it. THE PEOPLE YOU CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN, DROVE THIS COUNTRY OFF THE CLIFF, and you want a return engagement? your nuts.
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                    • Author by hurricaneyankee52983 (September 09, 2010 12:36 pm ET)
                      4  
                      WRONG ON, your continious posts here prove what a fool you are. You just don't get it. THE PEOPLE YOU CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN, DROVE THIS COUNTRY OFF THE CLIFF, and you want a return engagement? your nuts.
                      Report Abuse
    • Author by terrapin53 (September 08, 2010 8:34 pm ET)
      6  
      very simple. Give Obama what he wants and dare the republicans to filabuster it. If it does not get passed due to republican filabuster then everyone's taxes go up. Let the repubs explain that. If it does pass, the repubs have broken their sacred vow and raised taxes. This is win win for the democrats if they do this and yell loud enough over the right wing noise machine.
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    • Author by Treulos (September 09, 2010 2:20 am ET)
      6  
      This tax hike is laughable. A mere $100,000 per multimillionaire? That's just pittance to them. At a minimum I would jack it up to 50% and then swim in their tears.
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    • Author by 4teepee (September 09, 2010 5:08 am ET)
      7  
      These conservatives are the class war hypocrites who complain about low income people who do not pay federal income tax (although they pay other taxes).
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    • Author by winston smith 2 (September 09, 2010 10:32 pm ET)
      3  
      What letting the Bush tax cuts will cost the super rich...


      The super rich, the top two percent, own about 25 trillion in wealth.* ( That is about half of ALL wealth owned in the USA )

      Rescinding the Bush tax cuts will cost the top 2% about 70 billion a year.**



      Let's do the math: (70 000 000 000 / 25 000 000 000 000) X 100 =0.28



      So... letting the tax cuts for the super rich expire, will cost the top 2% just over one 1/4 of one percent of their wealth a year.

      Asking that top 2 % to sacrifice about a quarter of one percent of their wealth is not exactly soaking the rich.

      Asking the "Job Creators", as the repubs anoint them, to give up such a tiny portion of their capital, could hardly have a significant effect on their ability to create jobs.



      *http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

      **http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-06/no-free-lunch-for-americans-as-deficits-bedevil-backers-of-bush-s-tax-cuts.html

      
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