If Rauf "threaten[ed] America," then so did Gen. Petraeus
The right-wing media is attacking Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf for saying that opposition to the Park51 project creates "danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security," by claiming, among other things, that Rauf's comments amounted to "threaten[ing] America." But Rauf's comments echo those of national security experts, such as Gen. David Petraeus, who have warned of the security implications of anti-Muslim protests.
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Rauf warned of possible backlash to perception "that Islam is under attack"
Rauf warned of "the danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security." On the September 8 edition of CNN's Larry King Live, Rauf warned of the dangers of perceived anti-Islam sentiment in the United States, especially pertaining to opposition to his Park51 project. From Larry King Live:
RAUF: Yes, indeed. Because the United States, we are the only global superpower today. What happens here has enormous impact over the rest of the world. People all over the Muslim world admire America, love America, take America as an example in many, many respects. And the status of Muslims in America and how American Muslims speak to these issues and how America engages with its Muslim community has global ramifications.
[...]
RAUF: I am extremely concerned about sensitivity. But I also have a responsibility. If we move from that location, the story will be that the radicals have taken over the discourse. The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. And I'm less concerned about the radicals in America than I'm concerned about the radicals in the Muslim world.
O'BRIEN: But isn't that also saying you're less concerned about the voices of opposition here?
RAUF: And if we do -- no, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I don't mean it that way. I meant it, the danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops.
I have a niece who works in the Army and served in Iraq. The concern for American citizens who live and work and travel overseas will increasingly be compromised if the radicals are strengthened. And if we do move, it will strengthen the argument of the radicals to recruit, their ability to recruit, and their increasing aggression and violence against our country.
[...]
O'BRIEN: Then why is it hard to back up and say, and now that we've done it, let's undo it, let's just say we won't. Let's pick another spot that's been offered?
RAUF: As I just mentioned, our national security now hinges on how we negotiate this, how we speak about it, and what we do. It is important for us now to raise the bar on our conversation--
O'BRIEN: What's the risk? When you say "national security," what's the risk?
RAUF: As I mentioned, because if we move, that means the radicals have shaped the discourse. The radicals will shape the discourse on both sides. And those of us who are moderates on both sides -- you see Soledad, the battle front is not between Muslims and non-Muslims. The real battle front is between moderates on all sides of all the faith traditions and the radicals on all sides. The radicals actually feed off each other. And in some kind of existential way, need each other. And the more that the radicals are able to control the discourse on one side, it strengthens the radicals on the other side and vice versa. We have to turn this around.
Right-wing media distort Rauf's comments to claim his words are a "veiled threat"
Carlson: Rauf "says move forward with the mosque near ground zero or we could face certain violence here?" On the September 9 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson teased an upcoming segment on Rauf's Larry King appearance by saying "the imam behind the Park 51 finally speaking out. ... He says move forward with the mosque near ground zero, or we could face certain violence here?"
Ingraham: "It's a veiled threat. Sounded like that to me." Later on Fox & Friends, Fox News contributor Laura Ingraham said "the way he said" that there could be negative implications to moving the mosque, "I found it to be chilling." Carlson asked Ingraham, "Is that a threat, Laura? Is that a threat?" Ingraham responded, "It's a veiled threat. Sounded like that to me. I mean, he's obviously seeing what he's seeing in the Middle East, which I think that should be the conversation," and said Rauf's "attitude last night, I think, it frankly stoked more tensions, and he's the opposite of a bridge builder on this particular issue."
Malkin: "I don't think it's any mistake that he used the word explode." Later on Fox & Friends, co-host Brian Kilmeade played a clip from Rauf's interview and said, "It's unbelievable that he would come to that conclusion. That to me is clearly a threat." Fox News contributor Michelle Malkin responded:
MALKIN: No doubt about it. But it's not unbelievable. It's completely expected, and I don't think it's any mistake that he used the word explode. In so many of these cases over the years, predating and postdating September 11, we've seen the practice of many of these members of the religion of perpetual outrage. And they'll use any excuse to explode, whether it's the drawing of some cartoons of Mohammed or in the Middle East, everything from holding beauty pageants to building KFCs in their neighborhoods. It's always an excuse to explode. And this is the point -- this is the point of the opponents of the ground zero mosque. It's not just about the mosque. It's about this threat that hangs over Western civilization like a Damoclean sword at all times for all reasons.
Co-host Gretchen Carlson responded by asking Malkin: "That's what I was thinking when I was seeing this, and I hate to be cynical about it, but could it be -- could it be, if you were really cynical, that they're testing the waters, that they deliberately want to put a mosque that close to Ground Zero and then when they know there is some sort of outrage, then they claim what he claimed last night, that watch out, if you don't put it here, you're going to be attacked?" Malkin replied: "Well, yeah. I don't think that's cynicism, Gretchen. I think that's an informed conclusion, and it's certainly based on past behavior of Islamic imperialists and provocateurs who know what they're doing. I think -- we're headed towards the ninth anniversary of 9-11, and it's about time people become informed about what their true intentions are."
Geller: "Ground Zero Supremacist Imam Rauf Threatens America." In a September 9 Atlas Shrugs post, titled "Ground Zero Supremacist Imam Rauf Threatens America," Pam Geller wrote "Fresh off his US taxpayer funded [fund raising] tour of the Middle East, Imam Rauf held command over the mainstream media. He rolled out with his unchallenged oped piece in this morning's NY Times ("We are proceeding with the community center, Cordoba House"), and followed it up with his not so veiled threats against America on Larry King...He said again that if he knew ahead of time the controversy this would create, he wouldn't have made the plans to build the center at the currently planned site. Liar. He loves it. Rauf's contempt for us oozes from his every enlarged pore."
Gateway Pundit: "Ground Zero Victory Mosque Imam Issues Threat: If You Don't Build It 'They Will Attack.'" In a September 9 Gateway Pundit post, titled "Ground Zero Victory Mosque Imam Issues Threat: If You Don't build It 'They Will Attack,'" Jim Hoft wrote that "Ground Zero Victory Mosque Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf issued a threat to America in his interview with CNN this week. The radical imam warned that if America did not get down on its knees and allow the victory mosque to be built on the bones of dead Americans that...'They will attack'" (emphasis in original).
Fox Nation: "Imam Threatens U.S., Says If Mosque Moves, Terror Will 'Explode.'" The Fox Nation linked to an ABC News article on Rauf's interview under the headline "Imam Threatens U.S., Says If Mosque Moves, Terror Will 'Explode.'" From the Fox Nation:

Fox hosts 9-11 firefighter to attack Rauf as "a tax-evading, terrorist sympathizing, Armani wearing slumlord" who is "try[ing] to extort America" and "wants to build a Tower of Triumph on the graveyard of my friends." On the September 9 broadcast of Fox News' America's Newsroom, Bill Hemmer hosted Tim Brown -- a former New York City firefighter who participated in the response to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks -- to respond to Rauf's comments. Brown accused Rauf of "try[ing] to extort America" in his remarks. Brown went on to reference Rauf's recent State Department-sponsored trip abroad and said, "We just paid to fly him around the world to gin up the Muslim world ... so that he could come back and threaten us." Rauf was a participant in a State Department program focused on outreach with the Muslim world, a program he began participating in under President Bush. Brown went on to call Rauf "a tax-evading, terrorist sympathizing, Armani wearing, slumlord, who partners with criminals and wants to build a tower of triumph on the graveyard of my friends."
But experts agree that protests against Park51 are aiding extremists
NPR: "Some experts worry the controversy plays into the hands of extremists." On the August 24 broadcast of NPR's Morning Edition, host Linda Wertheimer noted that "some experts worry the controversy plays into the hands of extremists." NPR correspondent Dina Temple-Raston noted that "in password-protected forums run by extremists, there's a different view. All this controversy is welcomed. Extremists and radical clerics, including one who has become a kind of bug light of sorts, attracting young American jihadis, have posted a stream of 'I told you so' messages. They've long claimed that Islam is under attack by the West. The violent reaction to the center, they say, now proves it." NPR played clips of national security experts, including Evan F. Kohlmann of Flashpoint Global Partners who noted that "this unfortunately is playing right into their hands, and as such, they're encouraging it. With glee." And Brian Fishman, Counterterrorism Research Fellow at the New America Foundation noted that "some of the anti-Islamic tone that has been going on around the country in connection with the mosque debate feeds into this notion that people like Anwar al-Awlaki can take advantage of."
Haass: World watching "to see whether Muslims in America have rights, have opportunities that Muslims in lots of other countries don't." During the August 16 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, Richard Haass, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and former adviser to Colin Powell, stated that "this has now become an international issue" and part of "the battle for hearts and minds in the Muslim world":
HAASS: The anti-American aspect of this -- this has now become an international issue. One of the great ironies is the people doing this mosque, this community center, want to develop an American version of Islam that competes around the world with the Wahhabi -- with the Saudi intolerant version of Islam. So this issue now is being watched around the world to prove or to see whether Muslims in America have rights, have opportunities that Muslims in lots of other countries don't.
So this has actually become an important aspect of our battle for the hearts and minds. It's no longer just a New York issue, it's no longer just a national issue. This has something really to do with the battle for hearts and minds in the Muslim world and whether there can be an American version of Islam that is more open and tolerant.
NSN policy analyst James Lamond: Attacking Islamic center is "counterproductive to our anti-terrorism efforts." In a July 30 article, James Lamond, a policy expert for the progressive National Security Network, condemned Newt Gingrich's statements about Islam and against the Islamic cultural center as "counterproductive to our anti-terrorism efforts. First at a strategic level, it plays into al Qaeda's framework that the West is at war with Islam." Lamond wrote:
But the frame that Gingrich is promoting is not only un-American and counter to our values, it is also counterproductive to our anti-terrorism efforts. First, at a strategic level, it plays into al Qaeda's framework that the West is at war with Islam. As Malcolm Nance, a former military intelligence officer and author of An End to al-Qaeda, recently told the American Prospect's Adam Serwer: "When you frame it as a fight against Islam and Islamic fundamentalism ... you're almost encouraging Osama bin Laden's line of thinking. He loves this idea that this is seen as a clash between Islam and the West; he wants that, he thrives on that."
At another level, this fear mongering and overreaction serves to diminish America's resilience, an important component of America's counterterrorism strategy. The National Security Strategy says that resilience is, "the ability to adapt to changing conditions and prepare for, withstand, and rapidly recover from disruption." There are many facets of this approach, from a resilient infrastructure to a resilience economy. However an important part is also a resilient society that does not abandon its core values as soon as they're challenged. Yet a decade after 9/11 Gingrich is ready to give up on America's strength and resiliency. In addition, Stephen Flynn, president of the Center for National Policy, who has been the leader for years on promoting resilience, says that there is also a deterrent value to resilience saying that, "if an adversary believes that Americans are well-prepared to prevent, withstand, and rapidly recover from acts of terrorism, the appeal of engaging in such acts would be diminished." Basically, by his hysteria, Gingrich is feeding into al Qaeda's goal of promoting a hysterical reaction.
Amr and Singer: "The world constantly watches to see whether we actually live up to our ideals." In a 2008 paper, Hady Amr, foreign policy fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings and director of the Brookings Doha Center in Qatar, and Peter Singer, senior fellow and director of Brookings' 21st Century Defense Initiative, wrote that "a zero-tolerance stand against anti-Muslim statements and bias" is necessary "to be able to inspire the Muslim world to support our vision of 'liberty and justice for all' in the world":
There are six broad principles that should guide our strategy to improve U.S. security through winning the war of ideas and broadening and deepening relationships between U.S. citizens and institutions and their counterparts abroad. These overarching principles include:
Confronting who we are. Harkening back to the civil rights era and the Cold War, unless we take a zero-tolerance stand against anti-Muslim statements and bias both in government and among our political elite, we risk being cast as undertaking a "war on Islam" instead of a "war on terror." America must clearly confront its civil liberty concerns at home--and in our military campaigns--if we are to be able to inspire the Muslim world to support our vision of "liberty and justice for all" in the world.
[...]
In an age of globalized technology and communication, the world is watching to see if we live up to our ideals of civil liberties and constitutional values, and is waiting to see if we stamp out anti-Muslim bigotry at home. A series of anti-Muslim statements made by various policymakers and close Administration supporters have undercut President Bush's post 9/11 message that Islam was not to blame for the attacks. Even though media in the Middle East give extensive coverage to these sorts of statements, the Administration has usually failed to condemn them or separate itself from the speakers. Bigotry in our midst is not just distasteful; in the age of globalization, it directly undermines our security. We live in an era where the world constantly watches to see whether we actually live up to our ideals. At a time when many in the world expect the worst of us, such positions only support the enemy's propaganda and recruiting efforts. Efforts on this front alone will determine if we have the moral authority to build multi-government coalitions and can inspire other countries to follow suit.
Former Bush administration officials warned of the dangers of Park51's opposition
Gerson: Solidarity with non-radical Muslims is "a matter of national interest." In an August 16 Washington Post column, former Bush official Michael Gerson wrote that "[p]undits have every right to raise questions about the construction of an Islamic center near Ground Zero," but added that "inclusive rhetoric toward Islam" is "a matter of national interest." Gerson questioned how "our cause [is] served by treating the construction of a non-radical mosque in Lower Manhattan as the functional equivalent of defiling a grave":
An inclusive rhetoric toward Islam is sometimes dismissed as mere political correctness. Having spent some time crafting such rhetoric for a president, I can attest that it is actually a matter of national interest. It is appropriate -- in my view, required -- for a president to draw a clear line between "us" and "them" in the global conflict with Muslim militants. I wish Obama would do it with more vigor. But it matters greatly where that line is drawn. The militants hope, above all else, to provoke conflict between the West and Islam -- to graft their totalitarian political manias onto a broader movement of Muslim solidarity. America hopes to draw a line that isolates the politically violent and those who tolerate political violence -- creating solidarity with Muslim opponents and victims of radicalism.
How precisely is our cause served by treating the construction of a non-radical mosque in Lower Manhattan as the functional equivalent of defiling a grave? It assumes a civilizational conflict instead of defusing it. Symbolism is indeed important in the war against terrorism. But a mosque that rejects radicalism is not a symbol of the enemy's victory; it is a prerequisite for our own.
[...]
There are many reasons to criticize Obama's late, vacillating response to the Manhattan mosque, and perhaps even to criticize this particular mosque. But those who want a president to assert that any mosque would defile the neighborhood near Ground Zero are asking him to undermine the war on terrorism. A war on Islam would make a war on terrorism impossible.
Former Bush official Armitage discussing mosque: Terrorists are winning "when we change our own ideals." On the August 9 edition of The Charlie Rose Show (accessed via Nexis), former Bush deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage responded to the question, "We should put [the mosque] there and be confident about it?" by saying: "My own view is don't let the terrorists win. When we change our own ideals and our own principles, they're winning, we're not." From The Charlie Rose Show:
ROSE: There is this also. What are the biggest challenges to America today?
ARMITAGE: The first and biggest challenge is to regain our confidence as a nation.
ROSE: Our confidence?
ARMITAGE: Our confidence.
ROSE: In ourselves?
ARMITAGE: Yes. I'm tired of running around being scared of my shadow, having time spent talking about 14th Amendments by pandering politicians who on the one hand say they want to be strict constructionists of the Constitution and on the other hand want to throw out amendments which have been pored over by the courts and I think validated over the years.
So I think getting our confidence back as a nation. I might say this also extends to the controversy over the mosque in the 9/11 site.
CHARLIE ROSE: We should put it there and be confident about it?
ARMITAGE: My own view is don't let the terrorists win. When we change our own ideals and our own principles, they're winning, we're not. So that's the most difficult thing.
Former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon: Anti-Muslim rhetoric surrounding cultural center is "reinforcing Al Qaeda's message we are at war with Muslims." On the August 16 edition of Morning Joe, GOP strategist and former Bush adviser Mark McKinnon stated that the inflammatory rhetoric surrounding the the cultural center is "stunning, and it is so contrary to our country's principles." He later said that the anti-Muslim rhetoric is "reinforcing Al Qaeda's message we are at war with Muslims."
Top military, law enforcement and administration officials have made similar comments when discussing other anti-Muslim protests
Odierno: Planned Koran burning on 9-11 "feeds right into what" the extremists "want." On the September 8 broadcast of NBC News' Today, Gen. Raymond Odierno, former commander of US forces in Iraq, discussed plans by a Christian pastor to host "International Burn a Koran Day" on the anniversary of 9-11. Odierno said: "Most Muslims are very moderate, and what you have is you have extremists. And what this does is this feeds right into what they want. What -- they feed off of hate and fear, and they will use this to generate more hate. And what that will turn into is potentially more violence against U.S. troops." He added: "I think there'll be some backlash, and I think you've started to see some already. And I worry that it'll turn into violence against our troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, other places as well. ... It's extremists who try to gain from this, and they use it to recruit, they use it to create hatred, because everything -- what they've built is built on hatred of what we do here in the U.S."
Petraeus: Quran-burning would "inflame public opinion and incite violence." In an email to The Associated Press, Gen. David Petraeus responded to plans to hold a Quran book-burning by noting "Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan -- and around the world -- to inflame public opinion and incite violence."
Clinton: "The fact is, it will have potentially great harm for our troops." In a September 8 interview with Council on Foreign Relations President Richard Hass, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton noted that "General Petraeus made the very powerful point that as seemingly, you know, small a group of people doing this, the fact is that it will have potentially great harm for our troops."

















Last night on CNN, there were two opponents of the construction of the Islamic community center who couldn't explain WHY their opposition made sense - it was just that they felt it was wrong.
They don't have a legit reason to oppose this. These peaceful Sufi sect members have NO connection whatsoever with the crazed extremists who DID plan and execute the 9/11 attacks. There is no reason to suggest that a peaceful sect intent on reconcilation shouldn't be able to buy property 2 1/2 weeks from the edge of Ground Zero - it shouldn't engender ANY righteous hard feelings that should be directed at people directly or indirectly responsible.
Islam is NOT responsible for their despicable acts on 9/11. And without that link, there is NO link between Rauf and 9/11.
They don't realize that are acting JUST LIKE the terrorists, becuase to them, as long at they say "Jesus" instead of "Muhamed" and "Bible" instead of "Koran," nothing else matters.
To them it's OK to hate Muslims, but it's somehow not OK for Muslims to hate us. Faith takes the curse off of hypocrisy as well, apparently.
----------------------------------------------------
Maybe those idiots buring the Korans will manage to burn their own church down as well.
They don't realize that are acting JUST LIKE the terrorists, becuase to them, as long at they say "Jesus" instead of "Muhamed" and "Bible" instead of "Koran," nothing else matters.
To them it's OK to hate Muslims, but it's somehow not OK for Muslims to hate us. Faith takes the curse of hypocrisy as well, apparently.
----------------------------------------------------
Maybe those idiots buring the Korans will manage to burn their own church down as well.
"INTERPOL issues global alert for increased terror threat if Koran burning in US goes ahead as planned"
From
http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2010/PR069.asp
"
LYON, France – INTERPOL has today issued a global alert to its 188 member countries following the request of Pakistan’s Minister of the Interior, and its own determination, that if the proposed Koran burning by a pastor in the US goes ahead as planned, there is a strong likelihood that violent attacks on innocent people would follow.
Minister Rehman Malik personally contacted INTERPOL Secretary General Ronald K. Noble to engage the world police body’s assistance in warning law enforcement of the increased terrorist threat if plans reported by the media to burn the holy book were carried out on Saturday’s anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
“One of INTERPOL’s primary functions is to prevent crime, and given that we have been made aware of a significant threat to public safety – an assessment which we share – it is our duty to ensure that we pass this information on to law enforcement agencies around the globe so that they can take appropriate measures,” said INTERPOL Secretary General Ronald K. Noble.
“Although there are currently no specific details as to what forms of terror attacks would follow, what is clear is if the Koran burning goes ahead as planned, there will be tragic consequences, ones which may well claim the lives of many innocent people,” added Mr Noble.
INTERPOL has circulated Pakistan’s warning and its own alert to all National Central Bureaus around the world, and also has requested that any country receiving information about a potential threat to public safety contact INTERPOL’s General Secretariat headquarters immediately.
“September 11 is a day when the world should come together to redouble our efforts to prevent and fight terrorism, not a day when any individual, especially an American, should engage in provocative acts that will give terrorists propaganda intended to convert September 11 from a day of remembrance, to one of recruitment for terrorists and others inspired to attack the US and other western targets,” stressed Secretary General Noble.
“Pakistan’s actions in contacting INTERPOL to ensure that potentially vital information in helping police identify and prevent any form of terror attack is circulated worldwide are to be commended, and the reaction of INTERPOL and others around the world in response to this planned hateful act should be seen by the Muslim community as strong evidence that this man and his small congregation stand alone,” concluded Secretary General Noble.
In addition to circulating any related information to NCBs, staff at INTERPOL’s 24-hour Command and Co-ordination Centre at the General Secretariat Headquarters will be placed on alert and be asked to treat with urgency any information related to potential criminal conduct linked to the burning of the Koran."
Ummmm, come again? Were those planes hijacked by Greeks praising the power of Zeus? Hindus worshiping Brahman? Atheists worshiping nothing?
Seems to me America's foreign policy and support of Israel led to Muslim extremists sacrificing themselves to Allah in a jihad by flying planes full of people into buildings full of people. And you are saying their religion had NOTHING to do with that decision of psychotic self-sacrifice?
Yeah. Riiigght
Islam was not responsible for 9/11.
The religion had nothing to do with it.
Timothy McVeigh was a rightwinger. Do we indict ALL rightwingers for the things HE did? Of course we don't, because it wasn't him being a rightwinger that caused him to do what he did - not everyone who is a rightwinger would do what he did.
And not all Muslims would do what those 19 people did on 9/11, and so it's unfair to blame their religion for their behavior or hold the religion responsible!
This is not rocket science.
We know in both cases these mass murderers came out of subcultures that had twisted views about politics, religion and the world in general. It seems violent radicalism takes over all aspects the lives of its adherents.
And considering the 9/11 hijackers, specifically the one that went down in PA, said "Allah is the greatest", their twisted motivations are also quite clear.
I don't need to know what was in their minds, their words were enough.
The people who planned the 9/11 attacks said their reasons were political. Are their words enough?
It seems that in culture's so dominated by religious dogma, religious beliefs and political beliefs are often one and the same.
islam did not attack us. islam does not believe in the crimes that took place on 9/11. trouble is that you wingers need a boogey man and you have chosen the religion because it's the one thing you don't understand about muslims.
Again, it's ONLY invalid to you at this point, so somewhere within your response you should state that it's simply your opinion and only that. Just the same that I disagree with you when I say, IMO, that I think McVeigh was motivated by his on take on a religion of sorts.
I can and do and preface it with it's my opinion and simply that. I don't pretend to be the expert on things as many liberals and conservatives who post here. I try to back my opinions with facts as well in order to not sound either stupid or arrogant.
I didn't say a THING about McVeigh's religion, but YOU thought I did, doofus!
My analogy wasn't invalid. It was spot on. We don't demand that all rightwingers should be considered potential domestic terrorists, and we shouldn't associate the peaceful Sufi sect Imam with the radical extremist Muslims who planned and executed 9/11.
And the reference here in that analogy was McVeigh being a rightwinger.
Bigots are unfairly linking the peaceful Sufi sect followers with the terrorists who planned and executed 9/11. It's an invalid linkage, just like it would be to link all rightwingers with Tim McVeigh!
YOU made an error, and either misread my post OR lied about its point and focus.
But McVeigh's motivation had nothing to do with religion so to introduce him as some analogy is ridiculous. You tried to conflate the motivations but it is invalid, as I said.
That's been proven. So your continuing screeching that I DID that is totally bogus, and further evidence that you are totally impotent in this discussion!
The ANALOGY was falsely blaming an entire class of people for the behavior of one extremist branch of that class of people.
So, that means that blaming all rightwingers for McVeigh's behavior is invalid. And blaming all Muslims for the behavior of the 9/11 conspirators is invalid. And blaming ALL Christians for the misdeeds of David Koresh is invalid. And blaming ALL illegal immigrants for the misdeeds of a few is invalid. And blaming ALL Japanese, including those who were citizens of America, for the misdeeds of a few is invalid.
That means that it's invalid to blame Rauf for threatening unless you want to blame Petraus too for "threatening America".
It wasn't JUST about religion, dummy.
The analogy was that just because McVeigh was a right-winger, does not make all right-wingers capable of such a horrific act of violence, just by virtue of being a right-winger.
Just in the same way that just because the 9/11 attackers were Muslim, does not make all Muslims capable of such a horrific act of violence, just by virtue of being a Muslim.
Nobody has ever implied that all rightwingers are responsible for the acts of one in that context alone, so if that is what she meant it made no sense.
Ruby, This isn't the first time some poster here has brought up McVeigh when talking about the perversions of Islam as some comparison to his perverting Christianity - look at Mary's post, she did exactly that.
It's an invalid comparison.
Common sense.
It may make perfect sense to you, but it does not to me.
The post wasn't about aligning McVeigh with religious zealots at all! That was your flawed reading of it, and even after you got told that, you continue to deny reality.
It wasn't a narrow discussion about religious tenets. It was a discussion about how an extreme group's behavior shouldn't be distributed to moderate members of that same group!
You can buy her lie, I don't.
Here's my post where he asserts that I brought up McVeigh in a post full of other stuff that addressed religion. He's lying, of course. He hopes you won't bother to trace back to the original post!
Hmm, it seems clear that, once again, you've let your personal animus control your fingers, doofus.
Islam was not responsible for 9/11.
The religion had nothing to do with it.
Timothy McVeigh was a rightwinger. Do we indict ALL rightwingers for the things HE did? Of course we don't, because it wasn't him being a rightwinger that caused him to do what he did - not everyone who is a rightwinger would do what he did.
And not all Muslims would do what those 19 people did on 9/11, and so it's unfair to blame their religion for their behavior or hold the religion responsible!
This is not rocket science.
I described how it's unfair to blame the religion for the behavior of a small group of extremists, and how it's unfair to blame the political philosophy for the behavior of one extremist!
The analogy worked just fine. The analogy was appropriate and accurate and there WAS no part of my post that made no sense.
The liar is RightON. THAT is his pattern, not mine. He's the dishonest paid troll.
Not one word. I spoke about him being a rightwinger, which he undeniably was.
Not all rightwingers are suspect because of McVeigh's actions. Not all Muslims are suspect because of 9/11!
It's pretty simple.
Not all people who believe that the government is the problem (hmmm, who does THAT sound like?) are suspect.
No, the CONTEXT was an analogy - that it's unfair to label ALL people who share a characteristic with a terrorist as potential terrorists.
And the reference here in that analogy was McVeigh being a rightwinger.
Bigots are unfairly linking the peaceful Sufi sect followers with the terrorists who planned and executed 9/11. It's an invalid linkage, just like it would be to link all rightwingers with Tim McVeigh!
YOU made an error, and either misread my post OR lied about its point and focus.
You are flailing now Sue, and that is never pretty.
If you have to personalize every disagreement because that is the way you are wired, grow up and take your victicrat mentality to your therapist. Nobody is interested in wiping your tears.
One need not have a "personal reference" for it to be a "personal attack", doofus!
I wrote a lot, but the one thing he seemed to have an issue with was "Islam is NOT responsible for their despicable acts on 9/11."
But in fact, it's an undeniable FACT that Islam is NOT responsible for the acts of the 9/11 hijackers. It was their PERVERSION of Islam, plus a bunch of other things, that drove them to act in an insane way on 9/11. It wasn't Islam.
So, what I wrote was undeniable and indisputable, yet he tried to dispute it! He denied that I knew what I was talking about, when any reasonably sane person with half a brain knows that what I wrote was true.
And so, since there's no REASONABLE way to object to what I said, that means that he objected to it because I WROTE IT! And that makes it a demonstration of Jollymon's personal animus towards me.
I swear, it make it so freakin' easy to shut down your nonsense!
It's far easier for a simple mind to call a disagreement a personal attack when you have no intelligent rebuttal, that's what this is Sue. You can fool yourself, but not the rest of us.
You are a troll, incapable of any fair or reasonable discussion and here only to attack. As if we need anymore proof.
It was someone's disagreement with REALITY that I objected to, as ANY reasonable person should do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but NOT their own facts. The FACT is that there is no reasonable objection to this group building on this site.
And as such, the OBJECTION to the indisputable stuff I wrote HAD TO BE a personal attack.
The nonsense about how the post didn't verbally, explicitly personally attack me is just that - nonsense. As I explained.
You have NO point, except the one on the top of your head. You're the known paid troll, trying consistently to derail threads away from the actual topic.
If Rauf threatened America, so did Petraus - and so he didn't threaten America, since Petraus wouldn't threaten America! And if it's wrong to allow these people to build on this site, then it'd be wrong to allow ANY rightwinger any freedoms, since they're all similar to Tim McVeigh, and it'd be wrong to allow ANY churches to be built, since the Branch Davidians went off the deep end, and it'd be wrong to allow ANY Catholic church ANY access to children forever more, because of the sins of a very few.
Link(s)?
There are links (all of her posts) to prove she is a troll.
Yet again you prove your immaturity. I made no personal attack to you, nor called you names. I stated my opinion, and again you throw out the juvenile name-calling as usual.
Of course a "religion" isn't a responsible entity in horrible acts. But a fanatical devotion to a religion is. Dogmatic and fanatical views that come from extreme ideologies are harmful. And the most dominant cause of extreme ideologies is religion, is it not?
And the McVeigh reference? How pathetic.
I personally believe religion poisons everything (thank you Mr. Hitchens). Fanatical devotion to the teachings of Islam led to the vehicle of self-sacrifice by the 9/11 terrorists. Would they have done that if their religion doesn't tell them to kill infidels and they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven? Would that kind of fanaticism been acted out by Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists or atheists? Very very unlikely.
That is my opinion, and if you can't deal with that, find a more mature way to debate without name-calling and "control your fingers." You aren't always right Dell, stop acting like you are.
Read my reply to RightON above to see the explanation about how your post is CLEARLY evidence of your personal animus, doofus.
The religion isn't responsible. A gross perversion that religion combined with about 6 other reasons caused these fools to go crazy and drive planes into buildings killing innocent people on 9/11.
But it wasn't Islam.
It wasn't Christianity that drove Vernon Howell/David Koresh to unleash a cult against the ATF. It wasn't even the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists sect that was responsible, even though they ARE an apocalyptic movement! It was a perversion of that group.
But, if you had your way, and it WAS the generic religion instead of the specific perversion of the particular sect that was responsible, you'd never allow another Christian church to build near the site of the Branch Davidian fire because it would defile the innocent children who lived there and it would defile the innocent ATF agents that were killed there!
And yeah, I am virtually always right. I understand you'd prefer that it not be so. It's not my fault that I don't post stuff here (or elsewhere) unless it can be backed up. But it IS your fault and your flaw when I post something and you challenge it simply because it's me who posted it!
I could care less who posted your comment. I stand by my convictions. Your argument back to me is, its not religion that caused 9/11, but twisted religion that caused 9/11. Bravo. You are basically saying, its not the car that went fast, but a car with a nitrous in it that went fast. The fundamental foundation/structure is the same. Its religion! I'm not painting all Muslims as extremists. I am refuting your statement that Islam had NOTHING to do with 9/11. You are 100% wrong saying that.
You claim to RightOn that "it's an undeniable FACT that Islam is NOT responsible for the acts of the 9/11 hijackers. It was their PERVERSION of Islam, plus a bunch of other things, that drove them to act in an insane way on 9/11. It wasn't Islam."
So what are the "other things?" If you are so infallible and always right, what are these vague "other things?" Have you even read the Qu'ran? You do know what is says in the later chapters about infidels right? You do know about Sharia law right?
You go on ad naseum that, "what I wrote was undeniable and indisputable, yet he tried to dispute it! He denied that I knew what I was talking about, when any reasonably sane person with half a brain knows that what I wrote was true."
Please cite why you are right and my opinion is wrong, because last I checked, 19 hijackers who were Muslim extremists, who were all well educated, not poor and mostly from Saudi Arabia, decided to sacrifice themselves in order to commit these heinous acts. What reasons other than American's foreign policy, support of Israel, and their religious upbringing would allow them to do what they did? I am curious to know, since everything you say is fact.
Questioning your statement has nothing to do with you writing it, as much as your ego would like to think that. I would have responded in kind to ANYONE who would have made that statement. It just so happened to be you. Deal with it. You aren't as special or as smart as you think you are.
That's indisputable.
My comment that YOU copied and pasted was "Islam is NOT responsible for their despicable acts on 9/11."
And the religion was NOT responsible. Just like the religion wasn't responsible for the Waco tragedy.
And NO, I will NOT do your homework, and tell you all the reasons why those who planned and executed 9/11 did what they did.
But "Islam is NOT responsible for their despicable acts on 9/11." That's indisputable. And without that linkage, there's no reason to oppose the building of the Islamic community center on that site.
And no, I don't believe you would have replied to anyone else in a similar way. You're a proven liar with a proven agenda, documented by me a couple of times about your posting history. Get a clue.
Nice to see in your world everything is black or white. Either you are right and everyone is wrong, and anyone that doesn't agree with you or has a different opinion is personally attacking you.
RightOn,
I see she really does have issues. Thats fine if people don't agree with my view on religion and its roll in extremism behavior. And I actually understand the point Dell is trying to make about religion not being responsible for 9/11. All I have stated, and I believe I am correct, is that religion is the catalyst, the cause and the reason for extreme behavior in situations like 9/11.
And Dell, I have done my homework. I know the reasons for 9/11. I joined the Marines because of 9/11. I saw first hand the results of extreme religious views. Its funny you wont back up your "Im always right" position with facts, but just say your view is an undeniable fact.
Oh, I'm sorry, are you going to take this response as a personal attack? Because I have yet to stoop to your name-calling tactics. I am disagreeing with you. Just as you are disagreeing with me (immaturely I might add). Are you ever able to carry on an argument without resorting to taking it personal or name-calling? I haven't seen any evidence you can so far.
But everyone is NOT entitled to their own facts.
It's NOT a matter of opinion in this case. A valid opinion is based upon VALID, verifiable facts.
An opinion that the world is flat is NOT a valid opinion.
And yeah, your post is clearly a personal attack, doofus.
You ASKED me to tell YOU what the "other reasons" were, and NOW you're trying to claim that you knew what the "other reasons" were all along? So, your request for me to provide the other motivations wasn't an honest request, huh? How do you think that behaving that way HELPS your credibility?
You aren't "disagreeing with me". You're disagreeing with reality. I am supporting reality. You should feel free to argue for reality. It's not MY reality. It's simply reality.
I still can't believe they put a computer in your rubber room. Where do they plug it in?
I appreciate you continuing to disagree with me and saying I can't grasp reality by claiming my assertation that religion played a major part in the catalyst of the 9/11 attacks by claiming I am some flat earth believer. Well done.
And I am really REALLY curious. Could you please explain to me your "other reasons?" I know the political and social reasons for 9/11. I just would like to see yours. That is an honest request. How is asking for your perspective dishonest?
And please explain how religion played no part in 9/11 instead of just repeating, "its a fact." I know you can't be at war with a "religion." But what gave the terrorists the incentive and bravido to sacrifice themselves by flying a plane into a building. Where they all mentally unstable? Hatred of America? Or was it because they all believed they would go to heaven and receive 72 virgins because the Qu'ran told them so? Please explain without your childish side bars and insults. Don't twist my words, don't assume my position, and don't resort to name-calling (if you can). Just answer the questions and lets all see what you really know.
And I still don't see how having this argument equates to a personal attack on you. Care to explain that?
Word of advice. You will never, EVER get a clear or direct answer to a question posed to Dolly. She will distract, by calling you names and saying you attack her (??), and then just repeating or regurgitating what she already wrote in hopes you will just give up because she is incapable of a reasonable discussion.
I have asked her umpteen times to link to any conversation on this board where she ever has had that reasonable debate, she can't because it doesn't exist. She twists and lies effortlessly and then attacks.
She is one giant piece of work.
And believe me, if I wanted to make it personal, it wouldn't be pretty. But its just a friggin' blog. No reason to get so uptight about comments on here. No one is changing the world with their posts here. Well, except apparently Dell.
They aren't "my other reasons", doofus! The issue is what all the reasons for the 9/11 conspirators to have done what they did are, including the one's YOU list. It's NEVER been about what reasons I have - that's just another one of your bogus accusations fueled by your personal animus.
And I never claimed that you were a flat earth believer, nor could ANY reasonable person have come away with that interpretation of what I said. ONLY a person making a bogus personal attack, suggesting that I unfairly alleged you WERE a flat earth believer, could write such a thing - just ANOTHER example of your personal animus, doofus. PLEASE keep doing it!!!!! Please, keep digging that hole.
You're the one who has twisted words and avoided reality and made personal attacks, dummy, and that's clear to anyone with half a brain. President George Bush explained years ago that it wasn't Islam that was the issue - that Islam wasn't responsible for 9/11. And Obama explained this too, today.
As the Christian Scientist Monitor headline says, "At his Friday press conference, President Obama made an impassioned defense of a key Bush strategy not to blame Islam for the 9/11 attacks. Many Americans have lost sight of that."
Bush said
"These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that. The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war. When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world."
You have to understand DollySue's twisted logic;
When she attacks and says "Screw You", or hurls expletives, or calls people "doofus", she is only attacking behavior - no personal attack, it can't be, it's from Sue.
But when anyone disagrees with her, even if there is no personal reference, she calls it a personal attack because you have your facts wrong.
And don't even get me started on how she freaks out over an anonymous thumbs down, thanks to that cute little feature by MMfA her therapist has made a ton of money!
Is their such a word? If so, I haven't been able find it listed in a dictionary.
If you know most recent, you know them all.
One big happy family.
That's easy..."right ON" knows everything... Uh oh--so did Tommy...never mind.
But it's not hard to figure out that DellDolly is the oft banned poster who originated Sue. If you don't believe me, check out any of the past screen names I mentioned and you will see such eerily similar styles, it will make you shudder.
Not a single one posted at the same time, one ends, one begins.
She is Sue, period.
The world is all that is the case.
The world is the totality of facts, not of things.
The totality of existing states of affairs is the world.
A picture is a model of reality.
A picture is a fact.
A picture cannot depict its pictorial form: it displays it.
Logical pictures can depict the world.
In order to tell whether a picture is true or false we must compare it with reality.
It is impossible to tell from the picture alone whether it is true or false.
But then you already knew that of course (since you do know everything).
I think this has been answered over and over:
their perverted sense of the Islam religion which is much like the want-to-be Koran burner's perverted sense of Christianity. Sure, he may not directly kill anyone, but yet people could die due to his action.
And yet you continue to ask.
And using your example, the Christian minister wanting to burn the Qu'rans: Because why? His religious beliefs maybe? Even if one is mentally unstable, the use of religion to justify ones actions is still using religion to justify ones actions, no matter how perverted or normal it may look. Why does no one get this? People raised under a certain religious ideology should not get a free pass saying "it wasn't their religion, just a perverted version of religion." ITS STILL RELIGIOUS BASED! Geez.
You suck at this, doofus. It's not the religion that's responsible for the behavior.
It's not the Christian religion that's responsible for the behavior of the guy in Florida. It's not the religion that's responsible for the behavior of some bad Catholic priests.
It WASN'T their religion. It was the perverted notions of those who don't represent the religion.
This is not rocket science.
Whether most people think groups like al qaeda and hamas perversely interpret allah's words to indoctrinate their recruits is immaterial to your point. To them it's obviously not a perverse interpretation.
As for Dippy, although it's difficult to interpret the ravings of a lunatic, I'm unsure whether she even entirely disagrees with you. But, to be sure, she'll never engage you in an intellectual discussion. As is plain from her comments on this thread, she's not up to par. (That is, she's too stupid). Other than call you names, and otherwise make a fool of herself, she's never addressed your point.
Beyond that, somewhere along the line she likely imagined you were out to get her, and so she's now overcome with personal animus toward you . . .
In case you missed it...
2nd Amendment jargon.."Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
so..................
"Korans don't kill people, people kill people"
"No, but the Bible can incite the brainwashed Christians into killing the infidels. Guns don't say a word."
There I fixed it for you.
It's the bigots messed-up and inaccurate interpretation of Islam that alleges that Islam drives people to do that. It doesn't.
Just like the government's behavior didn't drive McVeigh to do what he did - it was his delusional beliefs about what the gov't did that caused his irrational behavior. Just like it wasn't actual sins by Abraham Lincoln and the Union that justified John Wilkes Booth's delusions about what the North had done in waging war to preserve the Union!
Delusional, irrational reactions to the behavior of others doesn't justify indicting the whole group.
Prophet Muhammad: "I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all people [non-Muslims] until they say, 'No God except Allah.'"
"When ye meet the unbelievers smite at their necks" (Qu'ran 47:4)
"Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure" (Qu'ran 61:4)
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans (infidels) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..." [it does go on to say save any who will repent and follow the ways of Allah] (Surah 9:5)
Shall I make comments about flat earth and deluding oneself of facts like you would? Or do these direct quotes prove you wrong enough?
Leviticus 20:10
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
see, i can do it too...look at how evil christians are.
And you did what people with virulent hatred of Islam would do - post passages with no context to prove your preconceived point and that's why I labeled you as such.
The Bible on the other hand was written by about 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years. It is not the direct word from the Messiah that Islam believes the Quran is. And while many old barbaric customs are mentioned in the Bible, it is primarily Muslim radicals that still actively act on their beliefs as dictated by their God. Jesus Christ on the other hand said , "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." And I have never heard Christ quoted telling his believers to kill all non-believers, have you?
Go ahead and tuck your ignorant head under the covers and pretend that Chritianity has not been responsible(or those professing to be Christians)for millions of deaths and destruction of indigenous culture and customs all in the name of Jesus christ but any causual glance of history will prove you wrong.
And AGAIN with the bogus assertion that I said that YOU believed in a flat earth?
Your quotes prove that YOU are the black and white thinking person here, not me.
All I get are insults, bad analogies, and an arrogant know-it-all saying she is right, and disagreeing with her is a personal attack, but gives no other reasons why she is right. We all have to just accept it as fact because she says so.
So what is it? What is the reasons 19 Muslims sacrificed themselves on 9/11 if it wasn't the three things I already stated: U.S. foreign policy, support of Israel, and their Religion. Please explain in detail why I am wrong. I really want to know. Seriously.
I'm not sure what you call a "normal liberal view", I always post my own opinions. Sometimes they're very liberal and sometimes they're not.
As to the thumbs up or down, I've always thought that it means one either agrees or disagrees with what you posted. It's not a matter of right or wrong.
And I gave you thumbs down because you said:
"Islam is NOT responsible for their despicable acts on 9/11."
Ummmm, come again? Were those planes hijacked by Greeks praising the power of Zeus? Hindus worshiping Brahman? Atheists worshiping nothing?
Islam is not responsible for actions of those guys. People are responsible for their own actions. They can try and blame someone or something else (U.S. foreign policy, support of Israel or Islam), but THEY choose to hijack those planes and THEY choose to kill people.
As far as religion goes, I've heard many moderate Muslims who read the Koran, pray daily, and they have no desire to hijack a plane and fly it into a building.
The word is 'extremism' and when you take anything to the extreme, you're going to have a problem whether it's Islam or Christianity. Just think about the people who kill abortion doctors in the name of God as an example.
And that's just my opinion.
Yes, people are ultimately responsible for their actions. But (and this is a big BUT) what is the catalyst for choosing to do such a drastic thing? What sparked the idea to sacrifice oneself in such a way? What gives someone the conviction and fortitude to hurl oneself into a building in a plane? Could it be the passages of the Qu'ran? The promise of eternal paradise? Fear of hell and the promise of an eternity in Heaven drives Christians to "act kind and accept Jesus."
How is that any more of an extreme belief than "killing infidels gives you 72 virgins in paradise?" What is the difference other than the perceived values and morals of the actions? The end promise is the same. Eternal bliss. Where does that idea come from? Religion. Is not eating pork or shell fish an extreme behavior because a 2000 year old book says not to? Or is that something someone just came up with own their own accord? If a book told you to not eat fruit in order to get to heaven, you would if that was your ideological upbringing despite the obvious health implications. Is fasting, circumcision and the belief that you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood an extreme belief? You can't have it both ways.
And bombing abortion clinics is a great example. Again, what causes a person to become so mad at abortion doctors and clinics that they would want to bomb it? Could it be what the Bible says? Sure I understand about personal responsibility. But religion FUELS ideologically extreme behavior. It provides a blueprint of twisted values that people use as an excuse for their behavior. Ever read about the Inquisition? Was that because there was a rash of irresponsible behavior? Or was that religious fundamentalists doing exactly what the Bible states they should be doing?
Again, religion poisons everything. Some it poisons more than others. If you were raised your whole life being taught nothing is more glorious than giving your life to kill infidels, that wouldn't be extremism, that would be the norm. Its all about perspective based on your ideological upbringing.
So give me all the thumbs down you want. My point is valid. Religion was the catalyst for the terrorists actions. It doesn't matter if you call it extreme or not. It's still religion.
At least you gave an effort to give a legitimate response and without immature name-calling, which I respect.
Can ANYONE explain why insane people do the things they do? Can you blame words because they trigger insanity?
I don't think so.
There are people who claim the Bible says it's a sin to kill the unborn, while totally and completely ignoring one of the 10 commandments that says "thou shall not kill" as they go out and kill abortion doctors.
Did words in a book cause them to kill or were they just flat out crazy and held extreme views?
As far as the Koran is concerned, I have yet to see an accurate English interpretation of what the Koran actually says.
We've all heard the 70 virgins or 72 virgins stuff, but I've recently read that there is no such thing in the Koran. In other words, there is no passage in the Koran that says that if you kill the infidels, you'll get the virgins when you get to heaven.
People are responsible for their actions, words are simply words.
Once again, the thumbs down was my way of disagreeing with your post, not a personal attack or a question of the validity of your post.
As a old African American woman who lived through some of the worst times in the history of this country, I relied on my church, the Bible and my faith. NONE of those things caused me to go out and want kill people because of their mistreatment of me.
So I still say PEOPLE are responsible for the things they CHOOSE to do. And I don't believe that one words or paragraph can cause you to do something you didn't want to do in the first place.
But that's MY opinion.
Of course words don't make people kill. Reading Catcher in the Rye or listening to the Beatles Helter Skelter shouldn't make one go out and do horrible acts.
But you bring up an interesting point. You are assuming (if I may say you are) that the hijakers were all crazy for what they did, correct? All 19 are responsible for their actions. Its easy to dismiss radical and barbaric acts such as theirs as the work of crazies. But just how crazy were they? This was a cold, calculated plan that required patience and subtlety. Hardly the calling card of crazy people. How did they decide or get persueded to sacrifice themselves? Were they all equally crazy? Or were they all equally devoted to an extreme form of Islam? Isn't that one of the key attributes they all shared? Or am I mistaken?
Again, I am not, nor have I ever generalized Muslims for the acts of terrorists. My first duty station in the Marines had a Muslim base Chaplan, and I spent a lot of time with him. He was a very cool guy. And I admit I have a strong dislike for all religions, but I greatly respect one's rights to practice their religion as long as it doesn't harm others through action or inaction. But we aren't talking about "one word[s] or paragraph [can] cause someone to do something you didn't want to do." I'm talking about a religious ideology that many people are raised with as part of their culture. Catholics believe they consume the body of Christ and drink wine that turns to his blood (transubstantiation during the Eucharist). Is that not an example of an extreme religious belief that from the outside looks crazy? Many of a dogmatic religious faith are succeptable to influence BECAUSE of their religious beliefs. It doesn't make them crazy if that is the culture of belief they were taught, whether it is a perversion of the base belief or not, it is still religious in nature. Saying extreme actions by radical religious types is just "crazy" is actually insulting any odd or bizarre religious belief and generalizing anyone who holds a religious belief that seems odd or extreme from the outside whether it is a harmful belief or benign.
How you were raised or brought up on your religious beliefs shouldn't cause you to do anything extreme. But could you say the same thing if you were raised as a Muslim man in a Middle Eastern Country and you were constantly taught to hate Jews and Americans and how your religion was taught to you led you to allow for sacrifice to kill infidels? How can you dismiss them as crazy if that is what they were taught?
Crazy is probably not the right word, but I think that if you take the time to carry out such an elaborate plan to kill people, you must be either crazy or insane or just not right in the head. Sane people don't learn to fly a plane, just to turn around and crash that same plane into a building.
McVeigh planned out an elaborate way to kill people. Was he crazy or insane? Yes, it's my opinion anyone who wants to kill people they have never meet in their lives, people who have done nothing to harm or hurt them are downright insane.
People can read the exact same passage in either the Koran or the Bible and come to a totally different conclusion as to what the passage means. Is that the fault of the religion or do people simply have different interpretations of what they've read?
I used the word 'crazy' to describe radical Muslim extremists who think Islam tells them it's ok to fly crowded planes into buildings. I used the word 'crazy' to define Christians who think God told them it was ok to kill the abortion doctor because it's not ok to kill the unborn.
How else would you describe Muslims who read the Koran and pray daily and don't feel the need to fly a crowded plane into a building vs the hijackers who read the exact same Koran and prayed every day, but thought that killing innocent people was what they were suppose to do?
How else would you describe someone who thinks it's not ok to kill the unborn, but it's ok the kill the abortion doctor?
You ask this question: What is the reasons 19 Muslims sacrificed themselves on 9/11 if it wasn't the three things I already stated: U.S. foreign policy, support of Israel, and their Religion.
And I've said before, their religion did not teach them to kill innocent people, it was their OWN interpretation of their religion.
Do you honestly think that a majority of Muslim young men are taught hate Americans and Jews?
And who taught these young Muslim men and did those same people who taught them have a different interpretation of the Koran as the Muslim young men who read the Koran, pray daily but don't hate Americans or Jews?
Do you think that only Muslims have a lock on raising young people to hate?
I am really enjoying this discussion, but I have to call it a night for now. I will respond to your above post tomorrow or Sunday when I can. I appreciate your opinions and views, and I am glad you don't resort to immature name-calling in your responses to me. Its nice to know people can have discussions without labeling each other too. I am not judging you, and I hope you are not judging me either. Thanks. Have a great weekend.
Yea Pearlene they hate us for our freedoms? Check this out:
America the Exceptional
by glenn greenwald
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/?source=newsletter&utm_source=contactology&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Salon_Daily%20Newsletter%20%28Not%20Premium%29_7_30_110
Then speaking of hate this video of Jesus Camp says it all:
http://www.moviefone.com/movie/jesus-camp/27214/main?flv=1
The rift between Muslims and Jews (it use to be Muslims and Jews versus Christians) materialized when talk began to grow for the creation of a home state for Jews on Muslim land. Muslims consider it land given to them by god and some will do anything including blowing themselves up to get it back. It's a land issue.
Read The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer and substitute "Islamic/Muslim Extremist" where the text says "Evangelical" Christian. It also explains why you can commit murder following a text that explicitly says "Thou shalt not kill" and still expect the virgins.
Thank you ... I concur that it's a way of showing agreement or disagreement if a person doesn't want or have the time to write an OPINION.
What I find offensive are the ones (liberal or conservative) who jump in with statements such as:
"You're wrong," "fail," "IMO," "just saying," etc., or without linking to facts.
As for name-calling, personally there have been many times I'd like to comment on certain people being doofas simply their response indicates that they are.
Not let's look at parallels:
There are many twisted reasons why the KKK killed black and white people during the last 150 years, one of the more obvious but minimal justifications is an extreme view of Christianity.
Otherwise, you don't.
Clearly YOU too think that we can't see previous posts? Really?
Islam was not responsible. Belief in Islam wouldn't cause MANY, MANY Muslims to behave the way these terrorists did.
Obama JUST this moment got done saying "We are NOT at war with Islam" and "The people MOST interested in a war with Islam are Al Qaeda" and "for the most part, (believers in Islam) have rejected terrorism."
Islam is NOT responsible for 9/11.
It's indisputable. "If we start acting like Islam is offensive, what does that say to those Muslims who aren't terrorists?"
We can't "differentiate between them and us" when the THEM is Muslim Americans and the US is non-Muslim Americans. THAT's NOT the differentiation between the people who planned and attacked 9/11 and other Muslims!
The RELIGION is not responsible for 9/11.
Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington.
Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/
Why don't you enlighten us all as to why this mosque is a wise move, after all you know it all.
But this is NOT one. There's NO reason to believe it was part of any of their plans.
And we HAVE, on this site, discussed specifically WHY it's a good idea, on many occasions, troll. We've also discussed why it's pure bigotry to be opposed to it. If you want to read those previous threads, feel free.
As to whether the mosque is a "good idea", I would argue that allowing free worship is critical to remaining a free country. Outside of the USA, it shows the Muslim world that we are only at war with radicals trying to harm us, not a religion. That helps win "hearts and minds" in the Muslim world, which helps our troops in the field. It can lead to improved trade and improved diplomacy. It can lead to more Muslims governments joining or helping us in the "War on Terror". It can help the moderate voices in the Muslim world in their struggle against the radicals, which can help prevent the spread of radical sects of Islam.
The people who have argued in support of the mosque have already articulated these things, including President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton, or NY Mayor Michael Bloomberg. They have NOT failed to explain their support. You just failed to listen.
Great post summarized by your last sentence. It seems FL has a consistent problem reading and comprehending she just spews what she is told and fed by Faux and friends, she is a good right-wing authoritarian as well a avid reader of the Paris Business Review. Some people just have no shame.
On a side note, have you apologized for calling Shirley Sherrod a racist?
Those who want to keep their job at FOX NEWS know that whatever Roger Ailes wants, he gets.
So, whenever anybody on Ailes' schitlist say anything, it is RULE ONE at FOX NEWS that it must be distorted into something evil and/or un-American and/or anti-Christian.
If Imam Rauf would've said: "I like dogs", there would've been FOX NEWS ALERTS about the evil Jihadist Rauf eating dog meat.
I sincerely question why these two ignorant and malicious people were given a forum. Their presence served no public purpose other than to muddy the waters of a sensible discussion and make them look sadly stupid.
If ever there was evidence that opposition to this centre is based on willful ignorance, malice and bigotry this is it and those that foment it are to be condemned for their evil opportunism.
They fed off one another - one of them described listening to Rauf's statement and then talked of how they both came away with the same (faulty and flawed) interpretation of his comments as a threat.
And then Fareed Zaharia interrupted and politely tried to say that they were full of it.
We had another funeral for a soldier killed in Afghanistan just up the road yesterday (today for you). I grew up surrounded by people damaged by both World Wars and I have friends who have suffered severe P.T.S.D. as a result of Vietnam and East Timor. This is no trivial matter and those who cavalierly send off troops to combat or hostile occupation have committed the ultimate sin for a politician. Those who cheer them on are as guilty and those who aggravete the situation compound the offence.
Dr. Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention . . . is he a "lib," squawks?
Do you realize how really silly you sound repeating this BS?
As to acts of incitement, when there is a perception held that you are prejudiced against a certain group it serves no good purpose to behave as if you are - particularly when your armed forces are engaged in a campaign that could be construed as being an attack on the religion of that group.
It's called fuelling the fire.
I think one of the biggest problems with this potential act by this preacher is that in other countries, they can't really understand how the US Gov't can't stop this, and so they're likely to think that it's that the US Gov't won't stop it, that they don't want to condemn it because they condone it.
If anyone in any other country is misinformed enough to think that just because our government doesn't stop this means that our government somehow condones it, then they have a problem, we don't.
I think what's really sad is that the president has been put into a position where he's compelled to publicly respond to an isolated crackpot zealot who is just looking for his 15 minutes.
As sickening and disgusting as this book burning is.
Sometimes it takes a village. I thought pretty much the same thing, Pete.
Of course I didn't.
In fact, I stated quite clearly that their problem was that they couldn't understand that the US Gov't can't prevent this act. And because of that lack of understanding, they're likely to blame the US Gov't for that failure to condemn the act and prevent it, and think that they're condoning it!
But just because someone else walks away with an incorrect assumption, that doesn't mean, as you assert, that it's ONLY their problem, since we'll have to deal with the potential FALLOUT from that misunderstanding!
Stop saying the US government has failed to condemn the act, because that is a flat out lie.
Why do you PERSIST in thinking that we can't read previous posts to SEE you doing this?
I wrote "that the US Gov't won't stop it, that they don't want to condemn it because they condone it."
So, STOPPING IT and CONDEMING IT are BOTH things that I said at the same time.
The thought process by some will be that since the US Gov't won't condemn it and prevent it, they CONDONE it.
This is not rocket science!!! I used "condemn" because I used the word "condone", but I ALSO used the word STOP, doofus.
HELLO dishonest one, the US government has not failed to condemn it, they have condemned it.
YOU are the proven liar here, the person who has now TWICE dishonestly cropped something OUT of CONTEXT to distort the position I hold.
I think one of the biggest problems with this potential act by this preacher is that in other countries, they can't really understand how the US Gov't can't stop this, and so they're likely to think that it's that the US Gov't won't stop it, that they don't want to condemn it because they condone it.
However, more likely I was right and you just don't have the integrity or the honesty to admit you misspoke.
Either way your credibility takes a beating.
And that really hacks you off, and must be terribly infuriating to your employers, who USED to get much more use out of you when you still HAD some credibility than they do now.
Too bad, so sad. NOT!
The way you two carry on can only mean one thing: You're married to each other.
But you feel free to act like a jerk. It doesn't make your baseless accusation that he and I are equally at fault here any more valid.
Not as definitive as the U.S. but adequate for many purposes. Several jurisdictions (ACT and Vic spring readily to mind) have human rights statutes similar to Canada, N.Z. and the U.K. The Commonwealth and the other States and Territories are working on similar legislation and there is considerable agitation to this effect.
My personal view is that we should break out of the Enlightenment paradigm and legislate a list of obligations of all levels of government towards persons under their jurisdiction - similar to South Africa but reversing the onus from being an individual right to a duty of government.
so if this book burning goes down and muslims all over the world are handed yet another excuse to hate us and want to kill us and soliders all over the world are hurt or killed what are you gonna say then.
you cannot put your bigotry aside for two seconds and think that hey let's be the bigger man. not the man with the bigger gun.
how does it feel to be a gutless wonder? you have NO STONES.
Interesting that you would call on Americans with a long history of religious tolerance to be the bigger man, but defend the folks with an much longer history of religious intolerance. Tolerance and acceptance is a two way street, apparently you and your ilk can't comprehend that. If is time that someone like Rauf tried being the bigger man. He would accomplish much more by doing so than his current path, which is doing just the opposite. He knows it too, but his agenda apparently is more important.
And while you call someone else gutless, how do you feel about our gutless president who won't even tell the American people what he thinks about the wisdom of building this mosque at the proposed location. He is careful not to offend the Muslim world, but Americans , the heck with them, I'm already president, who cares.
And please, people like you have been intolerant bigots form the start. Its just been recently that jews have become less of a pariah, but people like muslims and atheist are certainly still openly discriminated.
YOUR non-logic is twisted!
NOW YOU want the President of the United States to get involved in a private building matter in New York City?
Aren't you the same screeching loonies whining about too much government intervention?
One word, pathetic!
You're obviously blaming all Muslims for all acts of Islamic-extremist terrorism.
Are all Christians to blame for "Burn A Qur'an Day"?
Are all Christians to blame for the slaying of George Tiller?
Are all Christians to blame for the bomb exploded at the Atlanta Olympics?
In that case, don't offend pro-lifers, homophobics, Christians ... you might find yourself gunned down in your own church, blinded and/or killed by a bomb planted outside the womens' clinic where you work, or beaten severely and hung on a fence left to die.
Explain the difference to me please.
They tell her what to say and bam, she become a parrot. What a dunce.
I would direct my fellow poster's attention to another insightful commentary, from MMfa poster cuardai, in Kuwait.
Robert Gates personally called the Pastor Terry Jones and told him to stop the Koran Burning. Rev. Jones backed down. Al Qaeda's recruiting should go waaaaay down now that we " The Great Satan" just saved their holy book from the ( literal and figurative) flames of hate.
I have never understood the disconnect between reality and hard core ideology. Seems to me that if your policies don't work, but you still want to be rich and richer, you develop a scheme in which you misled others and get them to pay for maintaining your lifestyle. It's all about the marketing, and it's an horrendous scam. They should all be in prison serving hard time for abusing these people.
I have never understood the disconnect between reality and hard core ideology. Seems to me that if your policies don't work, but you still want to be rich and richer, you develop a scheme in which you misled others and get them to pay for maintaining your lifestyle. It's all about the marketing, and it's an horrendous scam. They should all be in prison serving hard time for abusing these people.
And that is exactly why he will not move the mosque. He could care less about the 70% opposition to it. IMO, he is along the lines of thinking that they are mostly Christians, and will just roll over and do nothing. So we will build the mosque, but how dare some crackpot (and he is) burn the Quran in Fla. He's basically admitting that his religion is full of idiots....and US Christians are weak.
Second, he is saying that Islamic radicals pose a greater threat than the "Christian radicals" in this country. He isn't calling anyone weak.
AGAIN ... it is not a mosque, and it's not a new building. It is already located on that spot. The way I understand it they are simply wanting to update a pre-existing building. Am I incorrect?
They are currently using one small part of the multi-story buildings (two buildings where the common walls were torn out a long time ago apparently) as a place for Muslim prayer. I believe it functions as a mosque, with both daily prayers 5 times a day as well as Friday sabbbath services with an Imam.
There are two buildings. One was bought by an 8 person investment group that includes at least one congregant, and the other building is owned by ConEd and that same investment group purchased a extension to give them a long term lease of that second building until ConEd would agree to let them actually buy the building.
Once that is accomplished, they intend to tear the existing structures down that run from 45 to 51 Park Place and rebuild one large multistory building to replace the two buildings.
RAUF: As I mentioned, because if we move, that means the radicals have shaped the discourse. --from the article"
Kind of reminds me when GW told us to "go shopping" not long after 9-11. His point was not to bow to the pressure from the terrorists.
I find O'Brien being VERY disengenuous when asking about the risk. Understanding Rauf's POV doesn't take a degree in rocket science.
Before 1865, slaves were supposedly docile, needing the influence of the white civilization to help them become civilized and cultured.
After 1965, Blacks were supposedly mean-spirited and more than willing to attack white folks and screw white women. So they had to be kept down.
Even gleaned from the clip they edited and proferred,
_Any Rational Person_ would have to disagree with ms ingraham, and that other coterie of broadcast incompetents.
The attack took the lives of close to 3,000 people (including a high school classmate of mine) and caused billions in damage to property. The preemptive war in Iraq has so far taken the lives of 4,500 American military (plus 30,000 or more casualties; about a million military members suffer from PTSS), the lives of an unknown number of mercenaries and civilian personnel, and about a MILLION Iraqis, all at a cost of a TRILLION DOLLARS. To date. That cost is expected to reach 3-5 TRILLION over the next several decades, when you factor caring for the lives of the permanently disabled troops and the psychological damage to the so-called "uninjured", plus the costs of maintaining yet ANOTHER military base (is the USA actually going to abandon the Green Zone? Probably not).
Add the following to the list of self-inflicted wounds:
1. Torturing prisoners or rendering prisoners for torture in torture-friendly nations (called extraordinary rendition; not to be confused with rendition, which is the equal of deportation to one's country of origin...the right wing media LOVE to conflate the two).
2. Opening detention centers in Cuba and Afghanistan. Both are still operational, a big strike against Obama. But in his defense, he was handed a no-win situation. Bush-era torture has so despoiled the cases of some of the actual terrorists that no court will permit ANY of the evidence on the grounds it was attained via illegal means. Other men, who WERE not terrorists, will lash out once released (thanks, Bushie, for making terrorists where there were none)
3. Al Qaeda now has some operating capacity in Iraq, where it had none.
4. Iraq and Iran are on friendly terms thanks to the removal of Saddam. Many of Iraqi imams (of the Shiite faith) in positions of power have ties to Iran.
5. Iraq is now a theocracy with the trappings of democracy, and none of the three groups (Sunni, Shia and Kurd) is really happy dealing with the other. So a civil war is destined to rise up from years religious animosity. This is inevitable.
6. Suspension of rights once granted to US citizens. Privacy? Gone. Habeas corpus? Gone then restored. Or is it? Well, not for anyone in Gitmo.
So ask again--which party did more damage to the USA? Al Qaeda's one-time strike or 8 years of reactionary Bush-era policies?
Randy
Ha! I think that's a frog you're thinking of. Crabs aren't big on hopping.
But I get your point, and you're correct. The slow erosion of civil liberties is potentially worse than Bush's quick, petulant seizures of the same. But regardless of the duration of operations to steal our heritage of freedom, people are quick to adapt to a less amenable climate.
Just look at the BS people endure at airports. Full body cavity searches for all passengers cannot be far off. And when it happens, everyone will just get used to the feeling of jellied rubber gloves rummaging in your fundament.
Randy
(icons, if you will)
of what is _wrong_ in America.
They are an embarrassment.
No doubt they are proud of themselves, ironically.